the Royal Mail, be added to OSM?
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the correct
terms.
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people, would certainly be effective in discouraging contributions to OSM.
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and Mason vs
Montgomery.
I will read those (anyone got a link?).
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have to, I guess. Just make sure that
site visitors aren't caught in the crossfire, and do not end up having to agree
(explicitly or implicitly) to waive some of their rights.
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to do future relicensing exercises then why not simply
ask
for copyright assignment? It is more honest that way I think.
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consideration, for example a
monetary payment. It's not clear that putting up an intimidating screenful
of legal boilerplate accomplishes anything.
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, the tone of responses seems to be that lawyers aren't really
welcome here, so I'll shut up again.
I am sorry about the tone of my previous message - I would like to hear more
of your thoughts.
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to basically the same thing expressed with more words is
fine, then I suppose we can go with that.
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can be freely copied. In which case the OSM project has already
achieved its aim (of free map data) kind of by default, and all that
remains is to view some areas in Google Maps and start copying in the
streets and other features.
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http://www.spatialknowledge.eu/ABCAtlas/openlayers.html is a scan of the
London 'ABC Street Atlas' from 1933/34. It is suggested on the OSM wiki as
a data source; is it judged okay to copy information such as street names and
layout from this atlas into OSM?
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Good work! This must mean that if we see Ordnance Survey maps in secondhand
shops with a copyright date of 1958 or earlier, we should buy them and start
scanning them in.
(I know about the npemaps site; is there some other collection of out-of-
copyright maps to contribute to?)
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foundation claim
copyright over the map data' but rather 'do we claim that the map data is
a work subject to copyright'. As far as I know OSM is still making that
claim, and there are no plans to change this.
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questions.
I fear the OSMF may be planning to eliminate CC-BY-SA permissions in
the name of stronger copyleft, but in fact not achieve that, since a
contract-based licence is more difficult to enforce.
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would be copying street names from Google.
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restrictive
licence you want, with nothing that the OSM contributors can do about it;
and I would give this legal advice to my clients.
In my view this is very far from being the case.
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result as if CC-BY-SA were in force. Indeed one way
to think about CC-BY-SA (apart from the attribution requirement) is that
it tries to simulate a situation where all content is in the public domain.
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, to suggest dumping ODBL and moving to
Creative Commons, I would probably still argue that the existing licence
is strong enough and the theoretical legal scenarios aren't practical enough
to cause concern.
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of legal boilerplate will change that.
If you take a very sceptical, pessimistic view of CC-BY-SA's effectiveness
and enforceability, you should do the same for ODBL. I don't think that
is always the case here.
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individuals and companies.
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while accepting that CC has its flaws, I cannot agree that it is 'dreadful',
'useless' or 'completely ineffective'.
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restrictive contract, we need to assess how serious
those are in practice. (Trade secrets, mentioned as one possibility, don't
really cause a problem because they only work as long as the information
is kept secret.)
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provisions,
but it seems I'm very much in the minority on this.
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to publish that additional data because it could
be considered a Derived Database under the ODBL.)
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addr:street=Capworth Street
It appears to me that adding these two extra tags postal_code and
addr:street (and sometimes addr:housenumber) from the data file should
be okay, but I wanted to check with this list. If these are felt to be
a step too far then I will just add the lat,lon and ref.
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to
reincorporate it into OSM, it becomes much less useful.)
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A related question is that if a fork happened, could it then be merged back
into the main OSM project?
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, having a blanket grant-of-licence in the contributor terms
without actually assigning the copyright seems a suboptimal choice.
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contributions under CC-BY-SA simply continues.
Surely this is two separate steps:
- begin offering a licence to the whole database under ODbL,
- stop offering a licence under CC-BY-SA.
They might happen at the same time but they don't have to.
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be happy to help.
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, in the end, considered unprotected and freely usable
for adding to a non-CC-BY-SA data set, then most of the map data would be
also, by the same argument.
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http
wiki pages (!).
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this turns out and what Google's response is.
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, BTW - I'm not bothered about attribution
and I disagree with the ODbL for other reasons.)
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relicensings possible. The argument against is the same:
that it grants too much power to the OSMF, even if subject to a vote of
'active' contributors.
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in the current terms and conditions,
but I would welcome any corrections. However, where ambiguity exists, it might
be wise to take the more conservative interpretation.
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believe that we have the ability to grant that right to
the OSMF for the Ordnance Survey data.
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.
Some people want to import data, some don't. Both groups need to be supported.
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be able to import or use any
data from these ODbL-covered data releases?
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could not do likewise. Without extra permission,
we could not incorporate ODbL data into our map, even if it had been derived
from
OSM in the first place.
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difficulty seems to be 'grant extra
powers to the OSMF that ordinary contributors don't have'. Sigh...
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Out of interest has anyone asked the Open Data Commons people (or person) for
their opinion on the proposed contributor terms? I know the ODbL licence was
developed jointly with them but I imagine the CTs were not.
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Markus_g marku...@... writes:
What was the original vote deciding?
The vote, of OSMF members only, was on 'I approve the process' or 'I do not
approve the process'. (Those were the two choices in the vote.)
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prefer the ODbL but are unable to agree to the CTs since they don't own
all the data they have contributed.
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of
that.)
Let's leave Kosovo, etc. out of the discussion.
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Perhaps there should be a meta-contributor-terms where you agree to accept
future
contributor terms proposed by the OSMF. Then there wouldn't be the need to
re-ask everybody each time the contributor terms change.
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andrzej zaborowski balr...@... writes:
To answer Steve's question: yes, neither CC-By-SA
nor ODbL nor CC-By-SA and ODbL dual-license are compatible with the
current contributor terms.
Or, in other words, OSM itself is not compatible with them.
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point of principle, is open
to debate. But it's certainly the case.
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with the proposed CTs?
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.
To be clear - of course the existing OSM map is not covered by ODbL, but please
do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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restriction currently allowed in the CTs is attribution.
That is not specified by the CTs, even in the proposed version 1.2. They say
that 'OSMF agrees to attribute you or the copyright owner', but they do not
promise that any future licence chosen will have an attribution requirement.
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specifically about maps and geodata and using more specific
terms would work a lot better.
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draft please?
I would state something like 'any free and open licence(s), as long as the
chosen
licence(s) maintain the requirement that contributors be attributed'.
If you promise that then the business about OSMF agreeing to provide a web page
is not necessary.
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that an individual contributor could
provide data under the terms 'CC-BY-SA and ODbL 1.0 is fine, but not anything
else'?
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ignore
any licence terms as well.)
Is it simplest to keep the tile license the same as it is now rather
than risk compatibility problems with downstream consumers of tiles?
I don't think a change to public domain licensing could cause any
compatibility problem.
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, if the confusion on this
list is anything to go by.
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should all simply license
our contributions under an agreed share-alike licence - but that is not part of
this discussion.) I'm just trying to winkle out exactly what the proposed CTs
are intended to mean.
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their business.
IANAL but this is my understanding and I believe also the community norm.
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one ask, why have the attempted
contract-law stuff in the ODbL at all? Could it not be stripped out?
An ODbL-lite with the contract law stuff removed is a licence I could live with.
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wording.
I'd prefer some way of saying I got this data from X, much as
wikipedia does for image uploads.
Yes, I believe that each upload should be tagged with the data sources used.
(The practice of adding source tags to each object on the map is impractical
in my view.)
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such maps would be a futile
exercise, although not actually prohibited by law?
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different
things about what the ODbL permits or does not permit. And it's not some
abstract conundrum but part of the everyday business of the project - rendering
data into map tiles and distributing them.
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additional riders, and people can freely trace over them to make their own
CC-BY licensed map. (As long as they don't cheat by looking at the source
data!)
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be empty. The upload would consist entirely of 'Other
People's
Contents'.
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, that is a separate argument.
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be
the crux of the issue.
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contents'. Could you
explain what these 'database contents' are in the context of OSM, and how they
differ from the 'database' itself?
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-BY-SA is a good idea - because it provides a guarantee
beyond
doubt that all currently allowed uses of the map data will still be okay.
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of the strongest defences of 'strong share-alike' come
from
yourself and Richard F. - but both of you prefer public domain. I, too, would
prefer public domain over the ODbL. What's going on? Shouldn't we stop adding
more legalese and just focus on transitioning OSM to PD or attribution-only?
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' with 'supporting the licence change'.
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understand how the 'database' versus
'contents' distinction is meant to apply to maps and to OSM in particular.
Does anybody?
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you still have a database,
albeit a smaller one. Even if you only want a list of all coffee shops you
still
have a database.
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that you then publish.
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to be protectable via sui generis right but not via copyright.)
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, then, that every country which has a database right also has
database copyright?
No copyright and database-right are not universal the world over,
Yes - it's my understanding that the sui generis database right exists only in
Europe - is that so?
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, and it's not as strong
as ordinary copyright, please correct me.
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there is a substantial investment. It
focuses on work not creativity. Lots of work in making a database
won't get you copyright but may get you database right.
It is much more likely that OSMF attracts database right than database
copyright.
Thanks for clarifying this.
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broad ('any action
restricted by copyright') and the limitations of 'any free and open licence'
and a vote of 'active contributors' are so loosely specified, that it amounts
to almost the same thing in practice.
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it is possible.
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it as realistic either, and I hope it won't
be attempted.
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change' or 'the OSMF is
there
to support the project but not control it' as community expectations or
a kind of 'constitution', rather than trying to put them into the CTs or other
legal documents.
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these days.
So I think that free and open is more like share-alike in being a term that
is open to interpretation rather than a factual property.
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to agree to them for existing contributions
you
would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd have to
agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too).
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added
in the draft https://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_933xs7nvfb.
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forward, is to first sort out the
contributor terms and get general agreement, then have the discussion and vote
on whether to move to ODbL, dual-licensing, public domain or anything else.
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of these licences to be published and used
without requiring additional permission from me.)
Given such a choice and the appropriate community expectations, most people
would
choose option (A) if they trust the OSMF to do the right thing.
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only accept first-class data, and wave a sad goodbye to those who won't
play.
The OSM project only publishes data 'with strings attached'. I think we should
not demand from others more than we are willing to do ourselves.
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Richard Fairhurst rich...@... writes:
[OS OpenData licence]
But that isn't a problem now.
Version 1.2.3 of the Contributor Terms state
Does that mean it's still incompatible with version 1.0 of the contributor
terms?
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I think it would make more sense to work with the Creative Commons people on
CC-BY-SA version 4, so we can upgrade licences without deleting any data or
requiring every contributor to transfer rights to the OSMF. Then everyone could
just keep on mapping.
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/Articles/417053/.
That is just one person, though.
I think all that can safely be said is that it doesn't help to attract mappers.
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of the project.
I.e. even if we were planning to switch to CC-BY-SA 4, the Contributor
Terms would still make a lot of sense.
Well, in that particular case, the automatic forward compatibility of CC-BY-SA
would take care of it.
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, and if that's accepted
by the community, then go through the 2/3 vote process for any licence change.
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of the proposed CTs)
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to be explicitly stated in the CTs. The current proposed 1.2
version doesn't.
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to support the change.
It would be useful to have some way of labelling which changesets are ODbL-
compatible and which are not. I guess that is a separate problem which would
need to be addressed if and when there was a change of licence.
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of a 'database'?
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Francis Davey fjmd1a@... writes:
Put more simply Your Contents is anything you upload.
contents in the ODbL has a very different sense.
Thanks for clarifying. I think it's unfortunate that the same word was used
for both.
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of someone taking the
whole OSM map data but then arguing in court that what they took is 'database
contents' and therefore they are entitled to use it under the DbCL.
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