Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:45:00 +0200 Olle Viksten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | måndagen den 17 september 2001 17.22 you wrote: | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you have | been away from meat and potatoes too long. | | FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And we | don't have crepes we have pannkakor. I was going to say that. -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
600 pound gorilla politics making headway these days? On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:55:15 -0500 Ronnie Gauthier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I see that the basic intent of my statement is well understood though. | | On Monday 17 September 2001 10:45, Olle Viksten wrote: | måndagen den 17 september 2001 17.22 you wrote: | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you | have been away from meat and potatoes too long. | | FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And | we don't have crepes we have pannkakor. | | Olle Viksten | ___ | http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc | -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users | | -- | Ronnie | == | Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare | it's all in your mind | ___ | http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc |-http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:52:07 -0300 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | I guess to point out how stupid my last post was, I'll add to this thread. | | Did anyone read about Tom Clancy's take on the whole ordeal? It is | interesting, since the attack was somewhat similar to a plot in one of his | books, to hear his comments. Except the Tom Clancey event wiped out the government, who were all in the Capitol at the State of the Union address, where the plane (pilot only) crashed. If you read subsequent books (I have lots of long flights), the act helped things as much of the Washington rot was eliminated. The new president is one of Tom's no-nonsense heros who 'gets things done', is not a politician, and is generally well liked for his directness. Prior to September 11th, one might actually have considered the action a blessing in disguise. At least that is how it comes across in Tom's books. -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:17:59 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So maybe all Europeans are not 'cheese-eaters' or live on a diet of crepes and fruit. Sorry. I had to... | score one for our side. in several ways. an european cracker busted | open a mailing list used by, among others, some of the people who | committed the atrocity last week, and posted the list of 500 email | addresses. story is here: -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:16:31 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Monday 17 September 2001 11:25, burns wrote: | | | And Sadam is still in power, refuses to adopt a peaceful posture | | toward his neighbours and is still a significant threat. | | wait a few days. | | | Many people in Iran don't like that regime either. None of these | | countries are open democracies as we are used to in the west... but | | then they are different cultures. The point is that there is | | significant dissent everywhere in that region, with the possible | | exception of Jordan. | | first, the situation in iran is a lot more complicated than can be | easily summarized (which is true of saudia, egypt, and jordan, among | others, as well). the irani president, mohammed khatami, is actually | pretty reasonable by the standards we apply to the region. he | actually conceives of a good relationship with the west. the | theocracy there, the mullahs, are as crazed in the shiite direction | as the taliban are sunna. in the instant case, and for *our* | immediate purposes, this doesn't much matter -- iran was universally | troubled by the death of ahmad shah masood last week, and refuses to | recognize the taliban. they of course also hate saddam's regime. but | there is not actually much dissent in iran, though useful fallout of | all that is about to transpire could be the, um, isolation of much of | the theocracy in iran. | | meanwhile, there *is* tremendous dissent and trouble elsewhere, in | places you would not necessarily expect. both jordan and kuwait have | significant palestinian problems. the natives have contempt for them | (actually, in arab countries there is pretty vigorous contempt for | pretty much everybody who is not an arab), and could give a toot | about a palestinian homeland but for the fact that it would then | allow them to kick the palestinians out of their own respective | countries. (indeed, arafat is himself handcuffed a little bit, | because any agreement in which israelis don't line up to be shot | cannot be accepted by arafat, because arafat's people would then | shoot him.) kuwait has withdrawn tremendously from its | westernization; i was in the office of a member of the royal family | once and listened to him bitch, as we shared very good scotch, about | the inability to get a drink on kuwait airways, but if you bring | your own, they don't say anything and will bring you ice. (well, if | you're a member of the royal family, maybe, but not me; though i was | chastised for failing to bring in a case of something good when i | arrived.) this is no longer the case. their big shakeup last year | changed all that. this was not due directly to internal pressure, but | instead complaints from other countries who argued that the kuwaitis | were being a little *too* flamboyant. | | saudia has a problem, because the religious cuckoos have taken hold, | and if things continue as they are heading we can pretty much expect | the saudi royal family to move permanently to the beverly hills | hotel, which they own. you have not lived until you've seen a truly | wealthy desert saudi. they come to town in armored mercedes, in | convoys of them, the big cheese surrounded by his robed, heavily | armed band, ululating when they enter or leave buildings, driving | around the block a few times honking, and occasionally firing into | the air. (the closest we have to this is rap musicians and their | entourages.) i was saved from a very bad time once when i got yanked | by a friend off a hotel escalator when such a group was coming | through -- i'd nearly bumped into a big guy, and i guarantee you i | did not know the protocol of apology if i had. anyway, these guys | tend to give support to the likes of bin laden, for all sorts of | reasons. | | egypt has a big problem, and has for a long time. we can lay some of | this to the soviet influence, but whatever its genesis, mubarak is | kind of screwed. sadat was a far stronger leader, and look what | happened to him. (i've forgotten huge quantities of nasser stuff, and | while some of it is pertinent, not enough to let its lack kill the | point.) you'll note that a lot of the bad guys this time round | carried egyptian passports. this is not a matter of convenience, and | they were not phony. these were egyptians, drawn from the same crowd | that shot up the tourists a few years ago. | | a little surprise, to me, was the fact that some of the bad guys | carried passports from the emirates. uae has a lot of money and has | in some respects been the most westernized of the arab countries. i'm | assured by friends, though, that there has been a growing number of | islamonsters there, too -- i guess their equivalent of our tree | huggers. | | lebanon -- or, to the brits, the lebanon -- is just a mess, because | its terrorist organizations are multifaceted, not unlike the irish | republican army, which has
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 11:52, you scribed: I guess to point out how stupid my last post was, I'll add to this thread. Did anyone read about Tom Clancy's take on the whole ordeal? It is interesting, since the attack was somewhat similar to a plot in one of his books, to hear his comments. I had read all his books and assumed that many people would have seen the parallel. I thought about and told my wife about his writing this where he had a terrorist plane dive into the Capitol. -- - To make yourself look truthful one has to lie, as most people do not want to kmow the truth; but only that which they believe. - Keith Antoine aka skippy 18 Arkana St The Gap Queensland 4061 Australia PH 16 7 33002161 Retired Geriatric and Sometime Electronics Engineer ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Tuesday 18 September 2001 04:22, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | And if you go to Riyadh today, it is the worst of Western urban | sprawl, fast food, junk strip malls and cars. Of course, it has | been their decision to import this aspect of the West, but many a | Saudi look with sorrow at what their country has become. When I | fist went to the Kingdom, I expected more in the way of exotica: | Arab influenced architecture, local food, local customs. I found a | major street called 'Pepsi Road' because the bottling plant is | there. And more fast food per square foot than I ever thought was | possible. And MTV on the TV. And far too much poorly built and | maintained '70s western-style concrete block buildings. This is | what they think American culture is. It is, sadly, what we export | so well. It is not us. We are much more. But to these countries, | this is their experience. If I had a culture and it was replaced | with this, I would be upset. Too bad they don't understand that the | choice was theirs all along. But they don't want to take the blame | for the situation. So, we are called 'cultural imperialists'. And | the royal family our co-conspirators. yeah. not so bad in kuwait city, but it was amazing in a truly horrible sort of way that the in-flight movie i *always* drew was tennage mutant ninja turtles 3 dubbed in arabic. and egyptian soap operas. frankly, i would far rather have seen their equivalent of our old fess parker as davy crockett. a little dunes-n-robes stuff. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:30:51 -0400 Bruce Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Friday 14 September 2001 19:57 pm, dep wrote: | | What the US and it's allies do, will be carefully watched by all. | | It is imperative that the US comes out of all this looking | | snow-white and in shining armour. | | unfortunately, it is exactly this consideration that made tuesday | possible. | | Exactly. One of the things we *must* give up is the thought that we must be | liked by the world. As long as what we do is 'correct and proper', let the | world think what it wants. I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper' part that has been the problem. What we consider to be so is not what everyone considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay out. Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything we do not take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US always does things, everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The world will go to hell if the US sits back? There is another problem. Ego. The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world safe. To paraphrase Keith, as long as there are humans, there will be those who cause problems. I know this is unrealistic and will never happen. But if it did, it would be best for the US. Maybe not for the world. But maybe the world does not want to be helped. (I'm writing this and it is only Monday...) -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On September 17, 2001 03:30 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper' part that has been the problem. What we consider to be so is not what everyone considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay out. Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything we do not take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US always does things, everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The world will go to hell if the US sits back? There is another problem. Ego. The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world safe. To paraphrase Keith, as long as there are humans, there will be those who cause problems. Doing nothing is itself a course of action, but inevitably a bad one This isn't about going around fixing other people's problems. Terrorism affects us all, directly. It has been a long festering sore. It's now erupted into a putrid cancer that must be dealt with. I don't think free countries of the world will tolerate this anymore. They have said OK, this has gone too far. We're pissed off and morally outraged. Now we're going to deal with this. To this end, I don't think 1939 Chamberlain appeasement or inactivity is either practical or appropiate, given what has occurred. In WWII some countries capitulated politically to the Nazis. Others simply stood back and allowed them to roll through their country to commit atrocities upon their neighbours. They have since been struggling to downplay and expunge a part of their history that they are not very proud of. But the stigma will always remain - when the time came to do the right thing, they did nothing. Peace is a noble goal we all strive for. But not at ANY cost not when the price is the diginity of a nation and the future security and well-being of our children. There comes a time when good people must act. How would you feel if you did nothing and next year one of your own children were killed by these same terrorists? -- burns ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Roger Oberholtzer wrote: % On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:30:51 -0400 % Bruce Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: % %|Exactly. One of the things we *must* give up is the thought that we must be %|liked by the world. As long as what we do is 'correct and proper', let the %|world think what it wants. % % I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper' part % that has been the problem. What we consider to be so is not what everyone % considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay out. % Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything we do not % take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US always does things, % everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The world will go to hell if % the US sits back? There is another problem. Ego. The US just has to accept % the fact that they cannot make the world safe. To paraphrase Keith, as % long as there are humans, there will be those who cause problems. % % I know this is unrealistic and will never happen. But if it did, it would % be best for the US. Maybe not for the world. But maybe the world does not % want to be helped. (I'm writing this and it is only Monday...) Hmm. The US is damned it it does and damned if it doesn't. If it becomes self-absorbed or isolationist, a significant part of the world community complains the US has abdicated its leadership role or pisses and moans because they monetary aid ceases to flow. But US involvement in region X or on any side of issue Y, whether it serves US national interests or not, also results in both praise and condemnation. Given such a position 'twixt Scylla and Charybdis, US leaders and the population as a whole have rightly concluded it is best to act and to take positions that do serve US interests. Said positions and actions, not coincidentally, also seem to serve the interests of other countries as well. And, yes, the world will go to hell if the US sits back. Kurt -- Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do. Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do. -- Mark Twain ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US: - The US currently has a state of military occupation in KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they have not left. - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However, the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family. - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward. As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at the price of attacks at home? In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible. I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way to be a target? On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:19:48 -0400 burns [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On September 17, 2001 03:30 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | | | I think the US has always done this. It is the 'correct and proper' part | that has been the problem. What we consider to be so is not what everyone | considers to be so. The US would do much better to just stay out. | Do nothing. Let people complain about that. By not doing anything we do not | take sides. OK, through inaction, but if it is how the US always does | things, everyone will pretty much be treated the same. The world will go to | hell if the US sits back? There is another problem. Ego. The US just has to | accept the fact that they cannot make the world safe. To paraphrase Keith, | as long as there are humans, there will be those who cause problems. | | | Doing nothing is itself a course of action, but inevitably a bad one | | This isn't about going around fixing other people's problems. Terrorism | affects us all, directly. It has been a long festering sore. It's now erupted | into a putrid cancer that must be dealt with. I don't think free countries of | the world will tolerate this anymore. They have said OK, this has gone too | far. We're pissed off and morally outraged. Now we're going to deal with | this. | | To this end, I don't think 1939 Chamberlain appeasement or inactivity is | either practical or appropiate, given what has occurred. In WWII some | countries capitulated politically to the Nazis. Others simply stood back and | allowed them to roll through their country to commit atrocities upon their | neighbours. They have since been struggling to downplay and expunge a part of | their history that they are not very proud of. But the stigma will always | remain - when the time came to do the right thing, they did nothing. | | Peace is a noble goal we all strive for. But not at ANY cost not when the | price is the diginity of a nation and the future security and well-being of | our children. There comes a time when good people must act. | | How would you feel if you did nothing and next year one of your own children | were killed by these same terrorists? | -- | burns | ___ | http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc |-http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Roger You need to open your eyes here. It does not matter what the greivence is, terrors want change to what they deem is correct. If you disagree, I kill you in Jihade. If you capitulate, your are my slave, The KSA is just an excuse here. Laden wants KSA to follow Iraq. Also he leads as supreme leader. Not ing Likely. Read your history, when you sit back, you get goobled up. You just cant turn the other ckeek here, they will hit it too. -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:15:01 -0500 Rick Sivernell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Roger | | You need to open your eyes here. It does not matter what the greivence is, | terrors want change to what they deem is correct. If you disagree, I kill you | in Jihade. If you capitulate, your are my slave, The KSA is just an excuse | here. Laden wants KSA to follow Iraq. Also he leads as supreme leader. Not | ing Likely. Read your history, when you sit back, you get goobled up. You | just cant turn the other ckeek here, they will hit it too. I absolutely did not mean to imply that the US should not retaliate. A show of weakness is not the right thing. And, the US should work to decrease terrorist activities in the world. All this I am in favor of. I just feel that in the future the US should think a bit more about foreign involvements and the results. To deny the mindset of these fundamentalist Moslems is to invite disaster. Yes - stomp out the terrorist cells. There is no place for this type of activity. But pay closer attention to foreign relationships. The US has a nack for choosing an alliance that works for the immediate moment, and forgets or ignores the fact that they are also setting up a power keg when and if whatever the immediate problem is gets solved. I am simply wishing that the US would look further ahead. If not, then stay out. -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 03:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world | safe. i believe you will discover that we have lost all interest in making the world safe and instead now shall make the u.s. safe, and if that means draconian measures elsewhere, tough. if you look at our national debt, you'll find that it in considerable measure comprises money that we have given other countries in little trifles like the marshall plan to rebuild europe at the end of world war II, in war debt owed us by european countries that shall never repay it and shall never be asked to repay it, in monies that we have given developing countries around the world -- we don't believe it's a zero-sum game, instead that every nation and all peoples can prosper -- and we're repaid with sniping, hatred, and, now, not only the events of last tuesday but a substantial number of presumably well meaning but startlingly naive people proposing that we some how deserved it all. you will see our attitude changing. you will discover that you liked our old attitude better. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US: | | - The US currently has a state of military occupation in | KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they | have not left. we have been asked to stay, repeatedly and continuously, by the saudi royal family. | - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and | many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper | Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However, | the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of | the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family. proper islamic setup? you, sir, are guilty of perhaps the greatest ethnic slur that could be uttered, for you have in that statement painted all islamic peoples with the bin laden brush. iran, shiite, would love nothing more than to see all the sunnis fall, which includes bin laden, afghanistan, iraq, and a substantial portion of the arab world (iranians, by the way, are not arabs). in short, like so many europeans, you have no goddam idea what you're talking about. | - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward. | As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation | that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq | or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at | the price of attacks at home? your definition if forward is a peculiar one. and we do not give a toot as to what he feels until what he feels is the fires of hell, which shall be coming along to collect him shortly. | In no way does this justify September 11th. ah yes, the whole the u.s. had it coming, but that's not to say that the u.s. had it coming crap we're beginning to hear from the cheese-eating surrender monkeys of the world. | But if the US would | just stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the | concern over oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an | Islamic regime started by cutting back on oil, then so be it. | Conserve. It is possible. | | I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There | will never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of | your way to be a target? your ringing endorsement of cowardice is duly noted. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:27:13 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Monday 17 September 2001 03:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | | The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world | | safe. | | i believe you will discover that we have lost all interest in making | the world safe and instead now shall make the u.s. safe, and if that | means draconian measures elsewhere, tough. if you look at our | national debt, you'll find that it in considerable measure comprises | money that we have given other countries in little trifles like the | marshall plan to rebuild europe at the end of world war II, in war | debt owed us by european countries that shall never repay it and | shall never be asked to repay it, in monies that we have given I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not having one. These days, i dunno... | developing countries around the world -- we don't believe it's a | zero-sum game, instead that every nation and all peoples can prosper | -- and we're repaid with sniping, hatred, and, now, not only the | events of last tuesday but a substantial number of presumably well | meaning but startlingly naive people proposing that we some how | deserved it all. | | you will see our attitude changing. you will discover that you liked | our old attitude better. | -- -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 10:02, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many | years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not | having one. These days, i dunno... do what you think is right or, lacking that, what you think best enhances your personal safety. you have probably picked a good place to be. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
måndagen den 17 september 2001 16.02 you wrote: I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not having one. These days, i dunno... Have you seen the site for SLUG (Stockholm Linux UserGroup)? http://slug.qbranch.se/ We meet every Monday at Engelbrektsgatan (can't remember the number right now). Olle Viksten -- MicroSoft Network may not carry this message without license to do so. License to carry this message requires a fee of $1000, payable within 30 days to Olle Viksten. Appearance of this message on MicroSoft Network constitutes an agreement to terms. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Roger HMMM I see where you are going, that would be nice. Actually that was what the UN was for. But as you know, that does not work very well. We spend an massive amount of resource there and it is down a black hole. Besides there is so much bickering going on, compare it to our Republican/Democrates. There needs to be a leader here, one nation that stands for all nations. We are that one. It cost us dearly, but we do it. We cannot appease everyone, nor are we going to try. We live by our freedom and we may perish by it to, but do not look for any time soon. With out the US doing what we do. This planet will turn to koas. That would end up on our door step. WW II is an example of this. We were in an isolationist mode then, we ended up in your war. You did not have a way of grouping together then and you want us to be there when you need us. Otherwise we are not to be seen. You can not have it both ways. It just does not work. Yea you can give us ablody nose, but you risk the might the will and our resolve. We are not the Romans of old, The Old Egytian empire or Babalyon, We do not go where we are not asked to be unless you screw with us and then you have more than you bargin for. cheers my freind -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Hello Roger, While I understand your position I must disagree. The American presence in Saudi Arabia is by invitation of the Royal Family, no doubt, and most likely is helping them to stay in power to some extent. Mr. bin Laden, is nothing more than a tin pot religious facist zealot who is looking to grab power in KSA. He sees the power that the Theocracies in Iran and Afghanistan, dictatorial powers to kill and torture anyone he sees fit, all in the name of Allah of course. There's also all that money from selling oil to the Great Satan, the US. Money and power, that is all this guy is after. Look at what happened in Iran around the fall of the Shah. The fundamentalists promised an Islamic paradise, they even had the women wanting it, they paraded and protested in favor of the Clerics. Now the country is little better than a police state. Religion and politics make for a deadly and voracious combination. History is full of examples, Europe during the Dark Ages, Utah in the US under mormon governace during the 18th century. Its always easy to slaughter people you don't like when your imaginary friend says its ok On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:09:26 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible. I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way to be a target? ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:49:20 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US: | | | | - The US currently has a state of military occupation in | | KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they | | have not left. | | we have been asked to stay, repeatedly and continuously, by the saudi | royal family. So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear enough in the opening line of my post. | | - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and | | many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper | | Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However, | | the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of | | the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family. | | proper islamic setup? you, sir, are guilty of perhaps the greatest | ethnic slur that could be uttered, for you have in that statement | painted all islamic peoples with the bin laden brush. iran, shiite, | would love nothing more than to see all the sunnis fall, which | includes bin laden, afghanistan, iraq, and a substantial portion of | the arab world (iranians, by the way, are not arabs). in short, like (Never said they were. But they are Moslem...) | so many europeans, you have no goddam idea what you're talking about. Not so. I was stating how em bin Laden /em sees it. And he does. If you do not understand your enemy, how do you expect to fight him? So, I do stand by my statement that it is what he wants. I did NOT say that the rest of the Islamic world wants or agrees with it. I do not think they do. But we were discussing bin Laden and his mind set - which is centered on these facts - whether everyone else agrees with him or not. This is what he believes. And it effects his activities and those of the rest of the base. Perhaps I was too vague in saying that bin Laden wants an Islamic setup. OK. They want one as they define it, which is not the way most Moslems would do so. I was not stating a fact I agreed with, nor stating what Moslems world wide would like. I was stating what bin Laden wants. Whether it is a perverted interpretation of Islamic law is neither here nor there - it is what he wants. Which was all I was presenting. NOT agreeing with. Just describing. And he sees America as an obstacle to this. I did not say that was reality. Only his perception. (And, I'm not a god damned European. Just one of those god damned Americans. And, I feel have as much right to voice opinions as anyone. And, all any of us are doing here is just that. No topic we have brought up is so cut and dry that we are covering all aspects in our little e-mails. No matter what one of us writes, someone can point out a problem and shoot it full of holes.) | | - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward. | | As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation | | that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq | | or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at | | the price of attacks at home? | | your definition if forward is a peculiar one. and we do not give a | toot as to what he feels until what he feels is the fires of hell, | which shall be coming along to collect him shortly. 'forward' as HE sees it. That was the whole point. As HE sees it. Surely he is wrong. But I WANT to understand why someone would do this. I need to see what his point of view is. I need this to come to grips with things. September 11 was not a random act of hatred. So then what was it. What would a person have to believe in order to do such a thing? I have many friends who are Arabs. I am unsure how to relate to them now. They are my friends. What would it take for them to think like this? Could they? I listen to them as always. Do I hear the same thing? Have they been saying things I never paid close attention to but, if I know how bin Laden thinks, maybe I will hear a different meaning? This was what my exercise was all about. | | In no way does this justify September 11th. | | ah yes, the whole the u.s. had it coming, but that's not to say that | the u.s. had it coming crap we're beginning to hear from the | cheese-eating surrender monkeys of the world. You are reading into this other that was intended. The US did not have this comming. No one does. Ever. Period. If you knew me you would not feel this about my character. Your statement absolutely does not describe me. Perhaps in the sake of brevity this does not come across. That is my mistake. I am only suggesting that the US pay more attention to the whole picture. Take Pakistan. (Insert joke here.) The US poured lots of money into Pakistan when
Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:11:16 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Monday 17 September 2001 10:02, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | | | I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many | | years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not | | having one. These days, i dunno... | | do what you think is right or, lacking that, what you think best | enhances your personal safety. you have probably picked a good place | to be. This week I was to be in Riyadh. For the first time I can remember, I really have been a bit afraid to go. Due to flight delays, my VISA has been held up. Sort of saved by the bell. This is probably a bit of an explaination for my incessant rumblings on this here. This is a first for me. I have never felt being an American abroad was a problem. Most people have far more complaints against the Germans, who are the real ones throwing their economic weight around in this part of the world. Not to mention their territorial beach behavior. A friend of mine in southern France has said that they have been warned to be discrete in speaking English and being identified as an American. There is concern that bin Laden's suggestion that 'if you see an American, kill him' might start to happen. I was joking on the 'i dunno...' thing. I have no intention of giving up citizenship. Maybe just the accent. -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
I did not disagree with any of that. Bin Laden is an opportunist using what he defines as religion as a framework for taking control. He may even believe what he preaches. I think he does. And if we are going to deal with him and 'the base' we should understand this and assume that they really believe it. Otherwise we will be shooting in the dark. And perhaps upset others to no end. On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:00:19 -0700 (PST) Shawn Tayler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Hello Roger, | | While I understand your position I must disagree. The American | presence in Saudi Arabia is by invitation of the Royal Family, no | doubt, and most likely is helping them to stay in power to some extent. | Mr. bin Laden, is nothing more than a tin pot religious facist zealot | who is looking to grab power in KSA. He sees the power that the | Theocracies in Iran and Afghanistan, dictatorial powers to kill and | torture anyone he sees fit, all in the name of Allah of course. | There's also all that money from selling oil to the Great Satan, the | US. Money and power, that is all this guy is after. | | Look at what happened in Iran around the fall of the Shah. The | fundamentalists promised an Islamic paradise, they even had the women | wanting it, they paraded and protested in favor of the Clerics. Now | the country is little better than a police state. | | Religion and politics make for a deadly and voracious combination. | History is full of examples, Europe during the Dark Ages, Utah in the | US under mormon governace during the 18th century. Its always easy to | slaughter people you don't like when your imaginary friend says its | ok | | | On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:09:26 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | | In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just | stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over | oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started | by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible. | | I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will | never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way | to be a target? | | ___ | http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc |-http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you have been away from meat and potatoes too long. On Monday 17 September 2001 09:02, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:27:13 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Monday 17 September 2001 03:30, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | | The US just has to accept the fact that they cannot make the world | | safe. | | i believe you will discover that we have lost all interest in making | the world safe and instead now shall make the u.s. safe, and if that | means draconian measures elsewhere, tough. if you look at our | national debt, you'll find that it in considerable measure comprises | money that we have given other countries in little trifles like the | marshall plan to rebuild europe at the end of world war II, in war | debt owed us by european countries that shall never repay it and | shall never be asked to repay it, in monies that we have given I write from Sweden, but I am an American. I have lived here many years, but I still have a US passport. I saw no advantage to not having one. These days, i dunno... | developing countries around the world -- we don't believe it's a | zero-sum game, instead that every nation and all peoples can prosper | -- and we're repaid with sniping, hatred, and, now, not only the | events of last tuesday but a substantial number of presumably well | meaning but startlingly naive people proposing that we some how | deserved it all. | | you will see our attitude changing. you will discover that you liked | our old attitude better. | -- -- Ronnie == Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare it's all in your mind ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
In basics it breaks down like this. Bin-Laden needs money. Period. Now he has increased the output of opium in Afhganistan to double what it was, they are now the largest exporter of dried poppies in the east. His followers guard the shippments, Bin-Laden collects a 10% tax on all opium exports. But he has a problem, he needs more money. Suadia Arabia is the country, in his mind, that can be most easily destabilized and couped. He does not give a rats ass about any country except as a money spigot. He does not givs a rats ass about any people save his own fanatical followers, and those are expendable. On Monday 17 September 2001 10:00, Shawn Tayler wrote: Hello Roger, While I understand your position I must disagree. The American presence in Saudi Arabia is by invitation of the Royal Family, no doubt, and most likely is helping them to stay in power to some extent. Mr. bin Laden, is nothing more than a tin pot religious facist zealot who is looking to grab power in KSA. He sees the power that the Theocracies in Iran and Afghanistan, dictatorial powers to kill and torture anyone he sees fit, all in the name of Allah of course. There's also all that money from selling oil to the Great Satan, the US. Money and power, that is all this guy is after. Look at what happened in Iran around the fall of the Shah. The fundamentalists promised an Islamic paradise, they even had the women wanting it, they paraded and protested in favor of the Clerics. Now the country is little better than a police state. Religion and politics make for a deadly and voracious combination. History is full of examples, Europe during the Dark Ages, Utah in the US under mormon governace during the 18th century. Its always easy to slaughter people you don't like when your imaginary friend says its ok On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:09:26 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: In no way does this justify September 11th. But if the US would just stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the concern over oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an Islamic regime started by cutting back on oil, then so be it. Conserve. It is possible. I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There will never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of your way to be a target? ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- Ronnie == Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare it's all in your mind ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 10:58, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next | statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS | PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear | enough in the opening line of my post. if i misread you, i apologize. we're starting to hear bigtime from the blame america first crowd, and i have no patience for them. i've seen several people put forward the arguments you made as if they were gospel, and again, i'm sorry if i interpreted your remarks as being along that line, which in my estimation is intolerable. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Our main concesion to Pakistan is the layoff of $30B in debt they owe us. On Monday 17 September 2001 09:58, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:49:20 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US: | | | | - The US currently has a state of military occupation in | | KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they | | have not left. | | we have been asked to stay, repeatedly and continuously, by the saudi | royal family. So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear enough in the opening line of my post. | | - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and | | many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper | | Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However, | | the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of | | the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family. | | proper islamic setup? you, sir, are guilty of perhaps the greatest | ethnic slur that could be uttered, for you have in that statement | painted all islamic peoples with the bin laden brush. iran, shiite, | would love nothing more than to see all the sunnis fall, which | includes bin laden, afghanistan, iraq, and a substantial portion of | the arab world (iranians, by the way, are not arabs). in short, like (Never said they were. But they are Moslem...) | so many europeans, you have no goddam idea what you're talking about. Not so. I was stating how em bin Laden /em sees it. And he does. If you do not understand your enemy, how do you expect to fight him? So, I do stand by my statement that it is what he wants. I did NOT say that the rest of the Islamic world wants or agrees with it. I do not think they do. But we were discussing bin Laden and his mind set - which is centered on these facts - whether everyone else agrees with him or not. This is what he believes. And it effects his activities and those of the rest of the base. Perhaps I was too vague in saying that bin Laden wants an Islamic setup. OK. They want one as they define it, which is not the way most Moslems would do so. I was not stating a fact I agreed with, nor stating what Moslems world wide would like. I was stating what bin Laden wants. Whether it is a perverted interpretation of Islamic law is neither here nor there - it is what he wants. Which was all I was presenting. NOT agreeing with. Just describing. And he sees America as an obstacle to this. I did not say that was reality. Only his perception. (And, I'm not a god damned European. Just one of those god damned Americans. And, I feel have as much right to voice opinions as anyone. And, all any of us are doing here is just that. No topic we have brought up is so cut and dry that we are covering all aspects in our little e-mails. No matter what one of us writes, someone can point out a problem and shoot it full of holes.) | | - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward. | | As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation | | that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq | | or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at | | the price of attacks at home? | | your definition if forward is a peculiar one. and we do not give a | toot as to what he feels until what he feels is the fires of hell, | which shall be coming along to collect him shortly. 'forward' as HE sees it. That was the whole point. As HE sees it. Surely he is wrong. But I WANT to understand why someone would do this. I need to see what his point of view is. I need this to come to grips with things. September 11 was not a random act of hatred. So then what was it. What would a person have to believe in order to do such a thing? I have many friends who are Arabs. I am unsure how to relate to them now. They are my friends. What would it take for them to think like this? Could they? I listen to them as always. Do I hear the same thing? Have they been saying things I never paid close attention to but, if I know how bin Laden thinks, maybe I will hear a different meaning? This was what my exercise was all about. | | In no way does this justify September 11th. | | ah yes, the whole the u.s. had it coming, but that's not to say that | the u.s. had it coming crap we're beginning to hear from the | cheese-eating surrender monkeys of the world. You are reading into this other that was intended. The US did not have this comming. No one does. Ever. Period. If you knew me you would not feel this about my character. Your statement absolutely does not describe me. Perhaps in the sake of brevity this does not come across. That
Re: New York WTC
måndagen den 17 september 2001 17.22 you wrote: Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, you have been away from meat and potatoes too long. FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And we don't have crepes we have pannkakor. Olle Viksten ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
I guess to point out how stupid my last post was, I'll add to this thread. Did anyone read about Tom Clancy's take on the whole ordeal? It is interesting, since the attack was somewhat similar to a plot in one of his books, to hear his comments. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 11:10, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | This week I was to be in Riyadh. For the first time I can remember, | I really have been a bit afraid to go. Due to flight delays, my | VISA has been held up. Sort of saved by the bell. yeah. i'd do my best to avoid that part of the world. frankly, until there's a better handle on this, i'd do my best to avoid being in crowds as well. and i'd stay in touch with the embassy -- there's some possibility that it will for a change be issuing good information. but saudia is never the best place to be, and the things that are going to unfold are likely to make a bad place to be a much worse place to be. | This is probably a bit of an explaination for my incessant | rumblings on this here. This is a first for me. I have never felt | being an American abroad was a problem. Most people have far more | complaints against the Germans, who are the real ones throwing | their economic weight around in this part of the world. Not to | mention their territorial beach behavior. yeah. germany has decided that they're willing to fight this war to the last american. there's a lot of backchannel jockeying for position. italy has decided to cheer us on from the sidelines, but the last time italy defeated anybody their opponent was equipped with spears and rocks -- a little less threatening than is current afghanistan, but not much -- so that little matters. i think that it's pretty clear that the u.s. can count on the u.s., and if anybody else comes along, fine. but we're the target of the bad guys, and the bad guys are the target of us. | A friend of mine in southern France has said that they have been | warned to be discrete in speaking English and being identified as | an American. There is concern that bin Laden's suggestion that 'if | you see an American, kill him' might start to happen. i think that it is highly likely that there will be some of this. and i think it's important to remember that while bin laden may have had a part in this, there is every reason to think he was far from alone. | I was joking on the 'i dunno...' thing. I have no intention of | giving up citizenship. Maybe just the accent. yeah. an american passport is a more grave thing today than ever before. here's to you for taking some pride in it, because where you are it's a lot more meaningful -- it's easy to wave the flag over here. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 11:22, Ronnie Gauthier wrote: | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, | you have been away from meat and potatoes too long. unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here: http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
score one for our side. in several ways. an european cracker busted open a mailing list used by, among others, some of the people who committed the atrocity last week, and posted the list of 500 email addresses. story is here: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 11:56 am, dep wrote: | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, | you have been away from meat and potatoes too long. unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here: http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html I looked at this site for a long time and I never really did find out what their agenda is... Phrases like being against 'the Bush Program' are throughout but never a statement dealing with specifics. And the list of 'endorsers' speaks volumes... -- ++ + Bruce S. Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bellaire, MI 09/17/01 12:19 + ++ Men don't change. The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know. - President Harry S. Truman (1884-1972) ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
guess it is a bit unfair, bout the same way as saying we did this to ourselves. On Monday 17 September 2001 10:56, dep wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 11:22, Ronnie Gauthier wrote: | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, | you have been away from meat and potatoes too long. unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here: http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html -- Ronnie == Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare it's all in your mind ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:45:00 +0200, Olle Viksten wrote: FYI Meat and potatoes is somewhat of a staple diet here in Sweden. :-) And we don't have crepes we have pannkakor. Lol! point well taken. ;-) stayler ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 11:17 am, you wrote: score one for our side. in several ways. an european cracker busted open a mailing list used by, among others, some of the people who committed the atrocity last week, and posted the list of 500 email addresses. story is here: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html Can't speak german, cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
RE: New York WTC
A co-worker who speaks German simply said someone cracked the subscriber list of a militant Islam newsletter. It contains 500 email addresses. Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager, Digital Media Lynch Technologies Inc. 416-744-7191 1-888-622-3729 416-744-0406 FAX www.lynchdigital.com -Original Message- From: Rick Sivernell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 12:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New York WTC On Monday 17 September 2001 11:17 am, you wrote: score one for our side. in several ways. an european cracker busted open a mailing list used by, among others, some of the people who committed the atrocity last week, and posted the list of 500 email addresses. story is here: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html Can't speak german, cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
RE: New York WTC
Rick Sivernell wrote: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html Can't speak german, cheers Use the fish, Luke. As in babelfish translator. Give it the URL and it will convert it to English. --Tom Wilson ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 12:15 pm, you wrote: Rick Sivernell wrote: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/medien/0,1518,157759,00.html Can't speak german, cheers Use the fish, Luke. As in babelfish translator. Give it the URL and it will convert it to English. --Tom Wilson ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users Tom I did not know about that. I thought it was for developers onlt in projects cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
In the Is that a good thing or a bad thing? department... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010917/aponline114219_000.htm If bin Laden is guilty, this brings the very real possibility of solving the immediate problem without having much effect on terrorism as a force. I mean, if we were to return to a situation where W. Europe rarely saw acts of terrorism and America were immune we lose our excuse to get tough. Stuart Biggerstaff Linda Hall Library 5109 Cherry Kansas City, MO 64110 Phone: (816) 926-8748 (800) 662-1545 x748 FAX:(816) 926-8785 URL:www.lindahall.org ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
[ snips ] On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:49:20 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US: Who gives a rats patoot about Bin Ladens's complaints against the US or anyone else? your ringing endorsement of cowardice is duly noted. Right on, dep! -- Collins Richey Denver Area gentoo_rc6 xfce+sylpheed ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:31:05 -0400 dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 12:20, Bruce Marshall wrote: | I looked at this site for a long time and I never really did find | out what their agenda is... Phrases like being against 'the | Bush Program' are throughout but never a statement dealing with | specifics. | | And the list of 'endorsers' speaks volumes... Their agenda is quite clear - these are the same, impotent, whining socialists who derive the benefits of our wonderful country but despise everything American. They hate the blood and gore of the WTC disaster, but they applaud the accomplishment - one strike against corporate America. They would if they could acomplish the same thing that Bin Laden and cronies are trying - to bring down America. If they fear anything, they fear that America will be seized with a patriotic fervor and actually clean out the rats' nests that foment such acts as the one this week. Their dream is that of a controlled society (notice the groups mourning the departure of the Communist experiment in Central America are on board); theirs is not the American dream! I pray that they and their sympathizers will be recognized for what they are - essentially irrelavant. -- Collins Richey Denver Area gentoo_rc6 xfce+sylpheed ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On September 17, 2001 11:38 am, Ronnie Gauthier wrote: Our main concesion to Pakistan is the layoff of $30B in debt they owe us. 139 lines of quotes snipped Please trim your posts... netiquette 101 -- burns ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On September 17, 2001 11:56 am, dep wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 11:22, Ronnie Gauthier wrote: | Why dont you burn your pasport and go have some crepes and fruit, | you have been away from meat and potatoes too long. unfair. roger has explained his meaning, and he's one of the good guys. you wanna see the bad guys, look here: http://www.beatbackbush.org/index1.html A thinly disguised front for what otherwise would be the The Coomunist League of America, Anarchists R Us, and the National Front for the Liberation Promotion of Almost Everyone that Doesn't Earn a Paycheck Through Honest Work. -- burns ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Monday 17 September 2001 12:06, burns wrote: || A thinly disguised front for what otherwise would be the The | Coomunist League of America, Anarchists R Us, and the National | Front for the Liberation Promotion of Almost Everyone that | Doesn't Earn a Paycheck Through Honest Work. damn straight. don't be surprised if the 29 september rally gets canceled. they're aware that there will be tens of thousands of people there to greet them. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:45:56AM +0200, Olle Viksten wrote: onsdagen den 12 september 2001 00.21 wrote dep: On Tuesday 11 September 2001 18:05, Joel Hammer wrote: | Before someone becomes an apologist for the Muslims, name me a | country where Muslims live in appreciable numbers where they do not | cause violent disturbances. the united states. it's the fourth largest religion here, and there's been very little trouble -- certainly nowhere near as much as from other groups joined in a special interest of one sort or another. Sweden also has a large muslim population, and no iolent disturbances from them. Many are refuges from countries where muslim fanatics are in power. Sweden may be lucky. Check out the recent article about a foiled attempt by by group of terrorists in England to nerve gas the European Parliament. Maybe Sweden has gotten peace from them by turning a blind eye at their international terrorist activities. Wouldn't be the first time for the Swedes. Joel http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/16/wbin16.xml ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
RE: New York WTC: Not more guns
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:09:15 +1000, Shane Broomhall wrote: I am not a pacifist, an anti gun person, I have 14 years military service behind me, in Australia. I just think that having more weapons on board being carried by civilians really would not help, and it would more than likely create more problems that it would cure. I would tend to agree with your point, however, that was one of the reasons the Terrorists were able to carry out this act. They chose a place where the people are completely defensless. The Beaurocrats are now adding fuel to the fire by removing all knives and, I can't believe this, fingernail clippers. I've had a CCW for over 5 years now. Only had to pull my weapon once. I don't believe we've had a single event where an individual killed anyone in anger where the shooter had a permit. We have to go through some training on when/where etc They even have the testimony of a few scumbag criminal types who stated that they chose their victims on the basis of whether or not they could be armed An armed person is a citizen, an unarmed person is a subject. I prefer to be a citizen. stayler stayler ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:27:52 -0400, Lee wrote: It's amazing! These two Christian bigots have made millions pushing the message of a man who never had a sheckel he didn't give away. Part of his message was that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. Maybe they should spend a little more of their time spreading their wealth around rather than spreading hate. Never happen. these two pin heads are disgusting, but way to many people lap up their dren like its ice cream ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC: Not more guns
On Sunday 16 September 2001 20:25, R. Quenett wrote: | Accepting ab initio the impossibility of the perfect, I personally | would *far* rather take my chances in any situation in which both I | and the people around me were free to arm ourselves as we chose | than in any situation in which I and they were compelled to consign | ourselves and our safety to the care of any government official, | however well intentioned, well trained, and professional the first | cohort of these might be at their beginning. | | Government (generally) has been shown to be utterly incompetent at | ensuring airline security (El Al is not a counterexample). They | should get out of the business. Now. absolutely, entirely, utterly correct. in all respects. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC: Not more guns
On Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:15:24PM -0700, Shawn Tayler wrote: ... An armed person is a citizen, an unarmed person is a subject. I prefer to be a citizen. Two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch is a Democracy. Liberty is a well- armed lamb protecting the rights of the minority. (note the quote below was random, not selected to be appropriate to this post -- although I do select the pool of available quotes :-). Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.'' -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
This just came in on another mailing list I manage, and I think addresses many of these issues very well: start of article Subject: Seven Deadly Sins Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:24:34 -0400 Lord Mountbatten--...For in the last resort, civilization stands or falls not by covenants, but by the sword... The Seven Deadly Sins of Terrorism: Lord Mountbatten Didn't Die For Your Sins written by Paul Johnson (British journalist; former editor of the New Statesman) The unedited version can be found in the New Republic, September 15, 1979, page 19-21. Most of you will recall that Mountbatten, (related to the Queen of England and was also a British Lord), was assassinated in a terrorist attack carriedout by the Provisional IRA. --- The Seven Deadly Sins of Terrorism: Lord Mountbatten Didn't Die For Your Sins by Paul Johnson (edited) September 15, 1979 The wrong approach to terrorism is to see it as one of many symptoms of a deep-seated malaise in our society . . . . This analysis usually ends in the meaningless and defeatist conclusion that society itself is to blame: 'We are all guilty.' International terrorism is not part of a general human problem. It is a specific and identifiable problem on its own. . . . It is a remediable problem. To say it is remediable is not to underestimate the size and danger of the problem. On the contrary: it is almost impossible to exaggerate the threat that terrorism poses for our civilization. . . . One reason why it constitutes such a grave and growing threat is that very few people in the civilized world--governments and parliaments, TV and newspapers, the public generally--take terrorism seriously enough. Most people, lacking an adequate knowledge of history, tend to underestimate the fragility of a civilization. They do not appreciate that civilizations fall as well as rise. . . . There was a common factor in all these great [falls]. They occurred when the spread of metals technology and the availability of raw materials enabled the forces of barbarism to equal or surpass the civilized powers in the quality and quantity of their weapons. For in the last resort, civilization stands or falls not by covenants, but by the sword. . . . Menacing improvements in terrorism have been brought about by the international availability of terrorist support, supply, and training services. Terrorism is no longer a purely national phenomenon, which can be destroyed at the national level. It is an international offensive--an open and declared war against civilization itself--which can only be defeated by an active alliance of the civilized powers. The impact ofterrorism . . . is intrinsically evil . . . for a number of . . . reasons--what I call the seven deadly sins of terrorism. First - Terrorism is the deliberate and cold-blooded exaltation of violence over all forms of political activity. The modern terrorist employs violence not as a necessary evil, but as a desirable form of action. The Second deadly sin is the deliberate suppression of the moral instincts in man. Terrorist organizers have found that it is not enough to give their recruits intellectual justifications for murder: indeed the abandonment of any system of moral criteria becomes an essential element in its training. (Recruits are made to experience and participate in moral depravity like murder or rape because they cannot be expected to be an effective terrorist as long as they retain moral elements of a human personality.) Third is the rejection of politics as the normal means by which communities resolve conflicts. To terrorists, violence is a substitute for the entire political process. [Which explains the difference between Bin Laden and Arafat and Sinn Fein, which used terrorism as a bargaining chip to gain themselves a place in the political process, but now that they are at the table, want to participate in the political process.] The Fourth Deadly Sin is that it necessarily and actively assists the spread of the totalitarian state. Countries that finance and support terrorism are without exception despotic states. Fifth, international terrorism poses no threat to the totalitarian state. That kind of state can always defend itself by judicial murder, preventive arrest, torture of prisoners and suspects, and complete censorship of terrorist activities. Terrorism can only get a foothold in a state where the executive is under some kind of restraint, legal, democratic, and moral. Sixth is that terrorism exploits the apparatus of freedom in liberal societies, and thereby endangers it. In meeting the threat of terrorism, a free society must arm itself, but that process of arming itself threatens the freedoms, decencies and standards that make the society civilized, because of the emergency actions that must be taken. These actions may threaten those freedoms. The Seventh deadly sin is that if a free society reacts to
Re: New York WTC
You forgot the freedom of being trapped by debris and burnt to death Those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedommay find one day their personal choices reduced to burning to death or jumping 80 stories. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
There is at least one more airline who employs 2 secret agents on every flight to ensure the plane is not hijecked. Auyeung - Original Message - : Net Llama : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : 2001914 AM 10:57 : Re: New York WTC --- Bruce Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 13 September 2001 22:06 pm, Joel Hammer wrote: On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:53:05PM -0400, dep wrote: On Thursday 13 September 2001 21:42, Joel Hammer wrote: | Those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedom may find | one day their personal choices reduced to burning to death or | jumping 80 stories. Joel those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedoms will happily point out to you that, as has been the case on the lirr and elsewhere in the past, one good man with a gun would have solved the problem with considerably less loss of life. -- I agree. Why they don't arm the pilots is beyond me. Joel Good thought but I think the problem is that they would have a dillemma if some crazies are banging on the cockpit door while they hold a knife to one or more stews/passengers and all the while the pilots are supposed to be flying the plane. Doesn't sound like a healthy situation to me. If there were 3 or 4 crazies, the pilots would probably have to shoot through 3 or 4 hostages in order to kill the crazies. Might be a necessary trade-off but still not a nice situation.Israel's El-Al airlines found a solution to this when they were founded,well over 30 years ago. Every flight carries a "Flight Marshall" who isarmed with a very large gun.El-Al is notably one of the few world airlines that has never beenhijacked, nor had any losses of life.=Lonni J. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED]Linux FAQ Step-by-step help: http://netllama.ipfox.com .__Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?Donate cash, emergency relief informationhttp://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/___http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:36:40 +1000 Keith Antoine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | | Joel Hammer wrote: | | You are right about that. Nations have avoided declaring war in the last 50 | years. Strange. I guess they want to save paperwork. | However, FDR, without the consent of Congress, and in fact in opposition to | Congress and the majority of the American people, engaged in acts of war | against both Japan and Germany. For this alone he should have been | impeached. All the American dead in WW II are on his hands. | Germany at least wanted desperately to avoid hostilities | with the USA. I have read a lot about the Nazis. I don't know if CNN is correct, but they said that in the history of the US, there have been 125 official conflicts, and ony five had a declaration of war. So, the US has avoided 'war' for quit a bit of time. But a 'conflict' is another matter all together. -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:11:09 +1000 Keith Antoine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | whats going on. Lastly why isn't the cabin on a seperate environment | so as the cabin crew could unleash a fairly harmless gas to put ALL to sleep till it |could land | with a sombulent cargo?? Is that what they spray on flights landing in Australia? Some gas to make us tourists easier to handel when in the country? I always wondered. :-) :-) -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Roger Oberholtzer wrote: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:11:09 +1000 Keith Antoine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | whats going on. Lastly why isn't the cabin on a seperate environment | so as the cabin crew could unleash a fairly harmless gas to put ALL to sleep till it could land | with a sombulent cargo?? Is that what they spray on flights landing in Australia? Some gas to make us tourists easier to handel when in the country? I always wondered. :-) :-) Nitrous oxide, keeps the tourists happy, also we can identify foreigners from the perfume.grin -- Keith Antoine aka Skippy 18 Arkana St, The Gap, Queensland, 4061, Australia PH: 61 7 33002161 Certified Professional Geriatric, Sometime Electronics Engineer, Knowall!! Insensible phone computer assistance a speciality. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Keith Antoine wrote: Joel Hammer wrote: those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedoms will happily point out to you that, as has been the case on the lirr and elsewhere in the past, one good man with a gun would have solved the problem with considerably less loss of life. -- I agree. Why they don't arm the pilots is beyond me. Joel Something was mooted on radio here today: Why aren't the bulkheads or doors to the cabin armour plated and locked so as noone can enter. ?? Snip After the first few airline highjackings they were and many flights has sky marshals aboard. After the highjackings died down, the marshals were removed on most flights as an economy measure, and the airlines started leaving the cabin doors were left open and unlocked as a convenience that the airlines justified by claiming that it was a safety measure designed to evacuate the flight crew if the airliner went down. Lee ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Skippy wrote: All cliques aside, I would like to see a surgical operation, something well planned and executed, similar to Entebbe. One that exorcises the cancer but leaves the good flesh still there. I agree. This seems to me the most sensible approach. Regards, Glenn -- Glenn Williams - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Registered Linux User #135678 Powered by SuSE 7.2 Linux Professional ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thursday 13 September 2001 22:16, you wrote: Bruce Marshall wrote: It would be great if they allowed people with carry permits to carry weapons on board with prior notification. I think they should do the same for teachers with permits with proper storage of the weapon. Sure would have saved some lives in the past. Let us NOT forget that we are talking not just American Airlines. I shudder to think of some airlines were passengers were allowed to carry guns, you might end up with a flying collander. -- Keith Antoine aka Skippy Skippy: Not a funny topic, but your metaphor is hilarious! ROTFLMAO Regards, Glenn -- Glenn Williams - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Registered Linux User #135678 Powered by SuSE 7.2 Linux Professional ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Friday 14 September 2001 11:19, Glenn Williams wrote: | I agree. This seems to me the most sensible approach. yes. that's how bill pinprick clinton abolished terrorism from the face of the earth, thereby makinf sure that tuesday didn't happen. no, time is now to ignore our concerns about the countries that harbor terrorists and simply to eliminate those countries. which, by the way, we shall. -- dep if you want to find the needle in a haystack, burn the haystack. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Apparently you never can be too intolerant... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html Stuart Biggerstaff Linda Hall Library 5109 Cherry Kansas City, MO 64110 Phone: (816) 926-8748 (800) 662-1545 x748 FAX:(816) 926-8785 URL:www.lindahall.org ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Friday 14 September 2001 10:19 am, you wrote: Skippy wrote: All cliques aside, I would like to see a surgical operation, something well planned and executed, similar to Entebbe. One that exorcises the cancer but leaves the good flesh still there. I agree. This seems to me the most sensible approach. Regards, Glenn If we are going to do anything in Afganistan, I certainly hope that we test out our Neutron devices and let our combat forces do a follow-on clean-up. We can tell the Taliban we are sorry when they have said they are sorry for harboring our enemy. Terry Bassett ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:04:53AM -0500, Stuart Biggerstaff wrote: Apparently you never can be too intolerant... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html This just another case of the Witch Doctor's lining their pockets by appealing to the fears and prejudices of the ignorant. They've even kept the Atillas of the world under their power this way. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.'' --George Orwell ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Bill Campbell wrote: On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:04:53AM -0500, Stuart Biggerstaff wrote: Apparently you never can be too intolerant... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28620-2001Sep14.html Snip It's amazing! These two Christian bigots have made millions pushing the message of a man who never had a sheckel he didn't give away. Part of his message was that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. Maybe they should spend a little more of their time spreading their wealth around rather than spreading hate. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:30, dep orated thus: On Friday 14 September 2001 11:19, Glenn Williams wrote: | I agree. This seems to me the most sensible approach. yes. that's how bill pinprick clinton abolished terrorism from the face of the earth, thereby makinf sure that tuesday didn't happen. no, time is now to ignore our concerns about the countries that harbor terrorists and simply to eliminate those countries. which, by the way, we shall. Mate, It my considered opinion that one will never erradicate terrorism as long as there is one single human being alive. We as a group are our own worst enemy and the worst enemy of this planet, possibly the universe. If we get off planet we will infect whereever we go. It's similar to saying, as you are no doubt aware, that we eradicated polio and whooping cough. In the past 12 months these have raised their ugly heads once again in a more virulent capacity. What the US and it's allies do, will be carefully watched by all. It is imperative that the US comes out of all this looking snow-white and in shining armour. Sheesh, I empathise with all the sentiment regarding retalitory measures, but I am sure that noone wants to look back in regret. I am moved to say this with some of the sentiments expressed re the atomic bombs and Japan that have been expressed herein. My friend, if you were to be the instrument of some of the totallity that you are expressing at the moment, I do understand it; I would be the first to stand at your side and defend you and your right. I would also be saddened to think that eventually you would be remoresful at the innocents that also took your wrath. Would you be any better than those that perpatrated the act earlier this week. BTW I have no idea exactly what the answer is, but radicalism of all colours must be made fearful of the consequences. I see criminals of many types as terrorists too, yet what they perpetrate is actually growing more criminal and we allow the courst to be lenient. -- - To make yourself look truthful one has to lie, as most people do not want to kmow the truth; but only that which they believe. - Keith Antoine aka skippy 18 Arkana St The Gap Queensland 4061 Australia PH 16 7 33002161 Retired Geriatric and Sometime Electronics Engineer ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Keith Antoine wrote: Joel Hammer wrote: those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedoms will happily point out to you that, as has been the case on the lirr and elsewhere in the past, one good man with a gun would have solved the problem with considerably less loss of life. -- I agree. Why they don't arm the pilots is beyond me. Joel Something was mooted on radio here today: Why aren't the bulkheads or doors to the cabin armour plated and locked so as noone can enter. The main argument used here (up to this point) is the weight of such a bulkhead. It may not seem like much in the overall scheme of things, 1 - 2 thousand pounds per aircraft to make the cockpit enclosure near impenetrable. However, carry that added weight out over a fleet of aircraft and it would literally be millions yearly in added cost in the fuel used to carry the extra weight. Why are there no suveillance cameras installed so as the pilots can see whats going on. That way the pilots watch what's happening in front of the aircraft...not in the cabin. A far better solution IMO would be air Marshall's, although that is not without it's drawbacks...but that's another debate. :) Lastly why isn't the cabin on a seperate environment so as the cabin crew could unleash a fairly harmless gas to put ALL to sleep till it could land with a sombulent cargo?? Keep in mind, that the hijackers are often times, as we saw, willing to die. If this gas was released into the cabin, they would not fall asleep instantly. Although it sounds feasible, they would no doubt start shooting people, windows, doors etc. and do everything in their power to ensure that they are not taken alive. A bullet hole at 450 knots and 35,000 feet soon makes a very serious problem. You mentioned in one other post, the flying colander theory. When at altitude and pressurized, an aircraft is constantly exerting several hundred pounds of explosive force on each square foot of it's pressure envelope. I have a strong feeling that the real answer is that you and I, all of us, are going to undergo far more scrutiny when traveling than we have to this point. In an attempt to keep hijackers and terrorists off of airplanes in the first place. Let's concentrate on treating the sickness, not the symptoms don't you think? My $.02 ... maybe $.03. -- Linux SxS [http://hal.humberc.on.ca/~mrcn0031/sxs/] ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Friday 14 September 2001 19:28, Keith Antoine wrote: | What the US and it's allies do, will be carefully watched by all. | It is imperative that the US comes out of all this looking | snow-white and in shining armour. unfortunately, it is exactly this consideration that made tuesday possible. -- dep if you want to find the needle in a haystack, burn the haystack. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Friday 14 September 2001 19:57 pm, dep wrote: | What the US and it's allies do, will be carefully watched by all. | It is imperative that the US comes out of all this looking | snow-white and in shining armour. unfortunately, it is exactly this consideration that made tuesday possible. Exactly. One of the things we *must* give up is the thought that we must be liked by the world. As long as what we do is correct and proper, let the world think what it wants. -- ++ + Bruce S. Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bellaire, MI 09/14/01 21:29 + ++ Everyone is entitled to my opinion. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:30:51PM -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote: .. Exactly. One of the things we *must* give up is the thought that we must be liked by the world. As long as what we do is correct and proper, let the world think what it wants. Machiavelli pointed out that you last a lot longer of the people in a position to harm you fear you than if they love you. Fear is often a stronger motivation than greed. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Government spending? I don't know what it's all about. I don't know any more about this thing than an economist does, and, God knows, he doesn't know much. -- Will Rogers ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Bill Campbell wrote: Machiavelli pointed out that you last a lot longer of the people in a position to harm you fear you than if they love you. Fear is often a stronger motivation than greed. Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer. ;-) Kurt -- Love isn't only blind, it's also deaf, dumb, and stupid. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Ian Marchak wrote: i.e.: Carbon Fiber I assume you are referring to? Other than that there are no materials that I know of lighter than and stronger than steel. CF is amazingly strong when it comes to blunt forces and the like, but if someone grabs one of the fire axes that are std equip on all commercial pass. planes, they will make quick work of it. Much like a kevlar vest won't do much good against an axe. I bow to superior knowledge, I only flew in fighter jets sabre f86's Observing the passengers is the job of the fight attendants. Every time you step on a plane, they are looking at you as you walk past, examining you for uneasiness, darting eyes, excessive sweat and the like. These hijackers knew what was going to happen, they knew what they were going to do, and I can almost guarantee that they were not calm, cool and collected. If not nervous of dying, they were extremely nervous of failing and being found out. If anyone should have noticed this behavior, it should have been the flight attendants. The pilots' jobs are to fly the plane. Most airlines if not all (it could be FAA rules), have the passengers board before the pilot, so in the event that a hijacker is noticed getting on the plane before takeoff, there are no pilots aboard to even get the hijacked plane in the air. I would guess that after so many years maybe of staring at people and not getting any signs back, other than whats expected, complacency sets in ?? I am not arguing that your points, or the points of the reporter or whomever are wrong. They are valid points, but are coming from the wrong direction. We are trying to find what was wrong with the airports, what was wrong with the planes. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. There was something wrong with the individuals who boarded the planes, hijacked the planes and turned them into explosive weapons. We cannot expect the people of the United States, the people who manufacture planes and the people who design airports them to cover every eventuality of the actions of lunatics. I am looking at the events and do blame in some respects the airports or more souciently the airport security that does seem to have lapsed with time, little activity and once again complacency. In that its going to happen somewhere else or to someone else but not me. I used to have a saying on my posts to the effect that its always the other fellow that stops the bullet, but to the other fellow you are that person !! We tend to forget that. The discussions at the moment are very invigorating and keep what is left of my brain working, or sort of! -- Keith Antoine aka Skippy 18 Arkana St, The Gap, Queensland, 4061, Australia PH: 61 7 33002161 Certified Professional Geriatric, Sometime Electronics Engineer, Knowall!! Insensible phone computer assistance a speciality. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
You are right about that. Nations have avoided declaring war in the last 50 years. Strange. I guess they want to save paperwork. However, FDR, without the consent of Congress, and in fact in opposition to Congress and the majority of the American people, engaged in acts of war against both Japan and Germany. For this alone he should have been impeached. All the American dead in WW II are on his hands. Germany at least wanted desperately to avoid hostilities with the USA. I have read a lot about the Nazis. If Sweden didn't want to fight the Nazis, why should we? I have been impressed by how well chosen words can mask the truth. World War II didn't start in 1939 with the invasion of Poland. We didn't get involved in WW II in 1941. There was no world war until we got involved. And, what beyond weakening Germany and Japan was achieved by this war? Nothing, as far as I can see. To celebrate WW II as a good war is beyond belief. Now a good war was in 1848 (or there abouts) with Mexico, since we got California (since reclaimed) and Texas (oil) from Mexico. However, even that victory was tainted according to US Grant, since he claimed in his autobiography that the acquisition of those territories was the root cause of the American Civil War. Joel On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:42:10AM -0400, burns wrote: On September 12, 2001 07:14 am, Joel Hammer wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 12:24:57AM -0400, dep wrote: charles krauthammer, mideast expert, is a quadraplegic who nevertheless is one of the most astute commentators. i recommend his column of today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14320-2001Sep11.html -- I read the article. I agree except with his assertion we didn't seek war with Nazi Germany or Japan. We DID seek war with both those nations. FDR ran illegal wars against both those countries prior to Pearl Harbor. Now we gaily recall the hero days of the Flying Tigers, but that was a war crime by any standards (Shooting down Japanese planes in China with American pilots sponsored by the US govt without a declaration of war) and we attacked German submarines in the Atlantic long before we were at war with Germany. This is not hyperbole. This is the public record. At Nurenberg, such actions were punished with death. Careful Joel, there's moe than a little hyperbole mixed in there. Participating in military actions against other military forces is not a war crime (although traditionally it has been considered an de facto act of war). In fact, Declaring War, officially, has gone out of style along with swords and the slapping of faces with gloves. Certainly, the US has not declared war on another nation since WWII. In fact, I can't think of many instances since WWII where any major country has declared war on another, despite widespread hostilities by military forces... perhaps in one of the Arab-Israeli wars. All the rest, including Vietnam, have been technically conflicts. -- burns ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:09:14 -0400 Joel Hammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | You are right about that. Nations have avoided declaring war in the last 50 | years. Strange. I guess they want to save paperwork. | However, FDR, without the consent of Congress, and in fact in opposition to | Congress and the majority of the American people, engaged in acts of war | against both Japan and Germany. For this alone he should have been | impeached. All the American dead in WW II are on his hands. | Germany at least wanted desperately to avoid hostilities | with the USA. I have read a lot about the Nazis. | If Sweden didn't want to fight the Nazis, why should we? Sweden is a bad example choice. There is lots of mumbling here about how Sweden provided so much goods to Germany in trade for being left alone. Germany needed Sweden to produce what they did and did not want to risk having the means of manufacture lost in a battle. If Sweden had not provided what they did, perhaps Germany would not have been as strong. It is not really something Sweden is proud of. | I have been impressed by how well chosen words can mask the truth. | World War II didn't start in 1939 with the invasion of Poland. We didn't get | involved in WW II in 1941. There was no world war until we got involved. Japan in Manchuria and the Pacific? Germany/France/Britain in Europe? Italy in Africa? OK, not all big players were in the game. But enough of the world was fighting that calling it a WW is not too far off the mark. And, the whole world does not call it a WW. | And, what beyond weakening Germany and Japan was achieved by this war? | Nothing, as far as I can see. To celebrate WW II as a good war is beyond | belief. Saving Britain, France and China as nations is not good enough? Do you mean it is OK to take over a country and others should just watch? What 'were' we thinking in Kuwait? Wars are not always about getting something. -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Joel Whoa there big boy. You are forgetting something, oin fact there are a lot of things here. 1. The president does not need congress's approval to committ troops anywhere, just to keep them there after a period of time. 2. At the time of the WWII, many were isolationist. That means they wanted closed borders and no one goes anywhere. Every thing in the world effects us here. 3. If we had not gotten into WWII england, sweden and all of Europe would be GERMAN today. Look at what hitler friends were doing. It does not take any imagination, just the open mind to accept the autrocities that went on. 4. The flying tigers were heros, but they were Merceneries as they fought for China. They were paid by China, yes China was helped by the US. It was less costly and if also help keep the US out of war a little longer. What I get from your post is that you oppose war, I agree with that. But there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough. War is horrible, dasterdly. People die, yes but there are those that just do not care and you have to remove them from society. I may not agree with you, I will defend and fight for your right to disagree. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one. cheers my friend -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
OTRe: New York WTC
On Thursday 13 September 2001 04:09 am, Joel Hammer spoke thus unto Caesar's assembled legions: snip Now a good war was in 1848 (or there abouts) with Mexico, since we got California (since reclaimed) and Texas (oil) from Mexico. However, even that victory was tainted according to US Grant, since he claimed in his autobiography that the acquisition of those territories was the root cause of the American Civil War. Joel snip At the risk of starting severe flame (remember the OT ;-) ;-) ), if we had not annexed Texas, perhaps Dubya would be president of Mexico today g. -- Tony Alfrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd rather be sailing ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
torsdagen den 13 september 2001 13.09 wrote Joel Hammer: If Sweden didn't want to fight the Nazis, why should we? Sweden was surounded by the Nazis. Norway, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states and Soviets Baltic coast occupied by them and Finland allied to them. We wouldn't had a chance. (BTW I wasn't born) Even so most Swedes were strongly opposed to letting the German army use our railways, even if it would have meant hostilities from the Nazis. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Ollie That was then, now is another time for all mankind to stand together here. We all are in the community of mankind, seeking peace and diginty for all. The past is the past and now is now. cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
from Keith Antoine: [...] From what we here in Oz, at least some fought back and saved a target in the Thanks for the information, I hadn't heard this. One can only admire such courage. Without doubt,there will be more acts of heroism recounted in the days ahead. I'm afraid I wouldn't likely have given nearly as good an account of myself and I don't want ever to be in a situation where I find that out. Washington area. They did not defend themselves they defend others, maybe even you. Anyone in a like situation who defends themself defends me, and you too, Skippy, for that matter. I am deeply grateful for their courage. R ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
RE: New York WTC
Likely, remember when they bombed the trade center from the basement their intent was to bring it down. The information on structural limits for these types of buildings is public information. I can accept the pentagon strike...it is war; but not the twin towers. bob -Original Message- From: Joel Hammer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 12 September, 2001 7:25 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: New York WTC From the WSJ today. Just to focus our minds. Note the 100% probablity of collapse if the fires are not extinguished promptly. Do you think the terrorists were aware of this? Joel Structural engineers who watched television reports of Tuesday's catastrophe noted that the World Trade Center towers remained standing about an hour following the impact of the first plane. During that time, though, a fire was raging out of control on multiple floors of the buildings. Jet fuel is extremely combustible, and produces fires that can easily exceed 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit, more than 500 degrees hotter than other kinds of more routine office fires. Steel, though, begins to weaken at 800 degrees Fahrenheit, and comes close to melting at around 1,500 degrees. While steel in modern high rises is routinely coated with fire proofing materials, those materials can't protect the steel from prolonged, intense heat. Once the physical damage to the building was done, if the fire wasn't extinguished in a very short period of time, the likelihood of collapse was 100%, said Charles Warren, chairman of Engineering Systems Inc., of Aurora, Ill. Rather than tilting over and falling, the towers appeared to implode on top of themselves, in much the same carefully controlled manner as buildings that are demolished. That is most likely because once the steel at the points of impact could no longer support the floors above them, those floors rushed straight downward, creating an unstoppable force that went all the way to the ground, said Tom O'Donnell, of O'Donnell Consulting Engineers Inc. in Bethel Park, Pa. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Lo Viksten wrote: torsdagen den 13 september 2001 13.09 wrote Joel Hammer: If Sweden didn't want to fight the Nazis, why should we? Sweden was surounded by the Nazis. Norway, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states and Soviets Baltic coast occupied by them and Finland allied to them. We wouldn't had a chance. (BTW I wasn't born) Even so most Swedes were strongly opposed to letting the German army use our railways, even if it would have meant hostilities from the Nazis. Funny, Norway. Denmark and Britain didn't seem to care that they were surrounded by Nazis. I don't believe they sold the Nazis iron ore either. In Norway they went so far as to sink a barge full of heavy water so keep the Nazis from building the bomb. I believe it was the King of Norway and his family who put on Stars of David when the Nazis ordered the Jews in Norway to wear them. When the fishermen of Norway took their fleet to neutral Sweden the Swedes impound the boats and turned them over to the Germans. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Look guys, this is getting no-one anywhere fast. The perpetrators of the horrendous acts in NY and Washington could not have hoped for more in fighting and arguing amongst America and their allies. As for the stupid re-production of that 1970's piece of garbage from the Canadian article, well, that's just down right inflammatory, and even wrong in a few places. This is a time for everyone to bond together, not a time for people to start pointing fingers at each other saying things like you never helped us back then, or you guys never fought the NAZIS hard enough. As for the idiots calling for all Arab or Muslim nations to be bombed, they are quite simply playing right into these terrorists hands. These terrorists gain followers by pointing at acts by American, Britain, France etc. and saying to young children look what the evil foreigners have done to us!. Blindly bombing every nation that is Arab or Muslim will not solve any problems, it will create them. I grew up during some of the worst IRA attacks. No one suggested that the British Army should bomb Northern Ireland (or EIRE where numerous IRA terrorists were hiding and training), because that's just madness. Equally, no one suggested that Britain should declare was on the USA because a large portion of the IRA's financial support came from misguided US supporters, because that is just madness. The number of people who are actually doing these evil things is a minuscule fraction of the population, you can't bomb an entire nation because of the actions of a small number of mad men. That said, no stone should be left unturned in an effort to find the people responsible for these attacks, and they should be made to pay the ultimate price. What we need to be sure of is that we get the ones responsible. Gordon Lee wrote: Funny, Norway. Denmark and Britain didn't seem to care that they were surrounded by Nazis. I don't believe they sold the Nazis iron ore either. In Norway they went so far as to sink a barge full of heavy water so keep the Nazis from building the bomb. I believe it was the King of Norway and his family who put on Stars of David when the Nazis ordered the Jews in Norway to wear them. When the fishermen of Norway took their fleet to neutral Sweden the Swedes impound the boats and turned them over to the Germans. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
At 03:38 PM 9/13/01 -0400, Joel Hammer wrote: Yes. They USED to burn witches and heretics, but haven't been doing that for several hundred years. Unlike the Muslims, who in Afghanistan, are putting on trial for their life people for the crime of promoting a non-Islamic religion. You may have forgotten the death sentence for the Indian author placed on his head by the Islamic govt of Iran. Iran is a large country, not some backwater you can ignore. What makes my views sound harsh is : I judge people by their actions. I take these people seriously. I do not believe that North America is immune from this madness. Joel Haven't burned witches for hundreds of years, true. But it hasn't been that long since some goons have used their faith as an excuse to bludgeon people to death. And their leaders squirmed in front of the media because the wanted to distance themselves but couldn't really condemn the activity. The paradox: Modern, open society seeks religious tolerance. Fundamentalists seem to hold persecution of those who hold other beliefs to be an important part of being a believer--and that it is indeed persecution of THEM to prevent them from doing so. Where does that take us? Stuart Biggerstaff Linda Hall Library 5109 Cherry Kansas City, MO 64110 Phone: (816) 926-8748 (800) 662-1545 x748 FAX:(816) 926-8785 URL:www.lindahall.org ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Skippy Some just do not get it. There is no sense in arguing with them. All we can do is smile shake our heads. Hope the never find out for real. cheers my friend -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
No you are correct it started long before. England and france were far to complacent and wanted to appease instead of doing. It wasn't just England and France. I have a first hand account by the English Ambassador at Munich. The great appeasement occurred at Munich. There Hitler got want he wanted, the removal of the German territory of the Sudentenland from Czechoslovakia, an artificial nation created by the victors of WWI, which included the Sudentenland to punish the Germans for losing. Hitler claimed the German minority in the Sudentenland was being abused. When Chamberlain told Hitler that he could have the Sudetenland without any strings attached, as Hitler demanded, Hitler seemed taken aback. Then he recovered and said words which should be better known: Es tut mir furchtbar leid, aber das geht nicht mehr. Translated: I am very sorry, but that is no longer of any use. The reason: Hungary and Poland also had territorial claims against Czechoslovakia, and Hitler was going to see to it that they got what they wanted, too. As regards the human rights of Germans in the Sudentenland, after the war, the German population of the Sudentenland, about 3 million people I believe, was removed and replaced by Czechs. As soon as they got out from under the Russian boot, the Czechs and Slovaks split up their country as fast as they could, emphasizing the fact the Czechoslovakia was an artificial country. SO, were is the morality here? I conclude, you lose, you pay. We didn't get involved in WW II in 1941. There was no world war until we got involved. Absolute BULLSHIT!! And, what beyond weakening Germany and Japan was achieved by this war? Nothing, as far as I can see. To celebrate WW II as a good war is beyond belief. You mean to say that ending the Holacaust was not enough, that stopping the occupation of Europe and opression was not enough. Abraham Lincoln, in his Gettysburg address, is credited with convincing the American Public that the civil war was not what it was advertised as. It was supposed to be a quick war to bring the errant Southern States back into the Union. After ten of thousands of deaths, that explanation was no longer enuf. It just wasn't worth the loss of life to achieve that goal. So, he changed the war into a great moral crusade, after the fact, so to speak. Well, that is the same with WWII. There is very slender evidence that the England or the USA had any interest in saving the Jews from Hitler. In fact, the Holocaust was very successful. The Jews were removed from all areas of Europe under the control of the German army. If we fought to save the Jews of Europe, we failed. And, WWII replaced Nazi oppression with Communist oppression. Not much better in most ways, since by any accounting method, the Communists killed more innocents that the Nazis (They had more time to do it.) Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Rick Sivernell wrote: Skippy Some just do not get it. There is no sense in arguing with them. All we can do is smile shake our heads. Hope the never find out for real. cheers my friend Rick, Yes you are totally correct, I am sorry to say. However on a different note I feel differently to all of the users of this list than I had previously. There are many of you that I guess you could say 'I Love', being careful that the correct connotation of love is transmitted grin. There are some of us here who have experienced shock, horror and resignation after losses of mates in conflict. Of course there have been some who would, like to wipe me off there list rather than think I like em! This tradgic event has acted as a catalyst to weld the people together once again, but you will notice it takes a war or a warlike act to do it. Pity! -- Keith Antoine aka Skippy 18 Arkana St, The Gap, Queensland, 4061, Australia PH: 61 7 33002161 Certified Professional Geriatric, Sometime Electronics Engineer, Knowall!! Insensible phone computer assistance a speciality. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Skippy The news here is showing support from around the world, we have friends everywhere. Thanks I understand skippy. On a nicer note, our air miles have gone over the 100k mark. We are getting closer to that time when we may be able to make our trip to land of Kangaroosg. Just can hardly wait. I have want to se your home country for a long time. cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On September 13, 2001 07:37 pm, Joel Hammer wrote: occurred at Munich. There Hitler got want he wanted, the There is a well-established rule in these types of discussions that has stood the test of time and become integral to Netiquette... Once a thread focuses on a discussion of Hitler, it must be immediately killed. # shutdown -h now R.I.P. -- burns ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Keith Antoine wrote: snip Rick, Yes you are totally correct, I am sorry to say. However on a different note I feel differently to all of the users of this list than I had previously. There are many of you that I guess you could say 'I Love', being careful that the correct connotation of love is transmitted grin. There are some of us here who have experienced shock, horror and resignation after losses of mates in conflict. Of course there have been some who would, like to wipe me off there list rather than think I like em! This tradgic event has acted as a catalyst to weld the people together once again, but you will notice it takes a war or a warlike act to do it. Pity! -- Keith Antoine aka Skippy I believe it bears noting that those of us who have served our country and seen blood spilled have a different perspective on the proper way of dealing with these incidents. I never want to see some things again, but nonetheless, realize that it's necessary. We're probably approaching a time in which we'll see some of these fine people pay the ultimate price. Let us not forget those who are preparing to go into harm's way, for they too may experience the atrocities we inflict upon each other. The defense of liberty and freedom has never been easy, but has always been necessary. To those veterans, be they British, Australian, Canadian, American, and all others who've fought valiantly, words can never express the gratitude for the actions and sacrifice you've given. Semper Fi, -- Andrew Mathews 6:40pm up 12 days, 19:30, 6 users, load average: 1.03, 1.19, 1.17 In Denver it is unlawful to lend your vacuum cleaner to your next-door neighbor. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thursday 13 September 2001 21:42, Joel Hammer wrote: | Those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedom may find | one day their personal choices reduced to burning to death or | jumping 80 stories. Joel those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedoms will happily point out to you that, as has been the case on the lirr and elsewhere in the past, one good man with a gun would have solved the problem with considerably less loss of life. -- dep one day, you'll wish it was now. your wish has been granted. don't waste it. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
--- dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 13 September 2001 21:39, Net Llama wrote: | I believe Yoda put this quite well: | Luke: But he was a great warrior! | Yoda: Wars do not make one great. yoda is, um, a character in a movie. So? Does that make the words less relevant? = Lonni J. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux FAQ Step-by-step help: http://netllama.ipfox.com . __ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:53:05PM -0400, dep wrote: On Thursday 13 September 2001 21:42, Joel Hammer wrote: | Those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedom may find | one day their personal choices reduced to burning to death or | jumping 80 stories. Joel those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedoms will happily point out to you that, as has been the case on the lirr and elsewhere in the past, one good man with a gun would have solved the problem with considerably less loss of life. -- I agree. Why they don't arm the pilots is beyond me. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:47:41PM -0400, dep wrote: On Thursday 13 September 2001 21:39, Net Llama wrote: | I believe Yoda put this quite well: | Luke: But he was a great warrior! | Yoda: Wars do not make one great. yoda is, um, a character in a movie. lenin put it a little differently: you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. -- We certainly shouldn't neglect another great Communist One death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic. Stalin. (He should know. He killed millions.) Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thursday 13 September 2001 22:01, Net Llama wrote: | --- dep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Thursday 13 September 2001 21:39, Net Llama wrote: | | I believe Yoda put this quite well: | | Luke: But he was a great warrior! | | Yoda: Wars do not make one great. | | yoda is, um, a character in a movie. | | So? Does that make the words less relevant? no, they'd be irrelevent no matter who said them; in this case, though, it was a puppet. -- dep one day, you'll wish it was now. your wish has been granted. don't waste it. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Semper Fi -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
| Luke: But he was a great warrior! | Yoda: Wars do not make one great. yoda is, um, a character in a movie. So? Does that make the words less relevant? Well, Luke didn't say he became great because of war. Maybe Luke said he was great because he won without fighting. You know, sorta like the angry rabbit running to a different fight. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:17:04AM -0400, Lee wrote: Lo Viksten wrote: torsdagen den 13 september 2001 13.09 wrote Joel Hammer: If Sweden didn't want to fight the Nazis, why should we? Sweden was surounded by the Nazis. Norway, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states and Soviets Baltic coast occupied by them and Finland allied to them. We wouldn't had a chance. (BTW I wasn't born) Even so most Swedes were strongly opposed to letting the German army use our railways, even if it would have meant hostilities from the Nazis. Groan. When the Germans invaded Norway, the Swedes did nothing to help and I think even hindered the English, who tried to help. The invasion of Norway was carried out to insure the continued supply of iron ore from Sweden, without which Germany could not continue the war. I admire people who watch out for themselves, like the Swedes and the Swiss and the Turks, but it irritates when they try pulling the moral high ground, too. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thursday 13 September 2001 22:30, Bruce Marshall wrote: | I agree. Why they don't arm the pilots is beyond me. | Joel | | Good thought but I think the problem is that they would have a | dillemma if some crazies are banging on the cockpit door while they | hold a knife to one or more stews/passengers and all the while the | pilots are supposed to be flying the plane.Doesn't sound like a | healthy situation to me. | | If there were 3 or 4 crazies, the pilots would probably have to | shoot through 3 or 4 hostages in order to kill the crazies. Might | be a necessary trade-off but still not a nice situation. in all known experience, people who want to hijack planes manage to do it, in no small measure because the people onboard are sitting ducks. and if even two or three passengers chose to be armed, there is nothing in world history to suggest that their being armed would cause them suddenly to become hijackers. -- dep one day, you'll wish it was now. your wish has been granted. don't waste it. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
--- Bruce Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 13 September 2001 22:06 pm, Joel Hammer wrote: On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:53:05PM -0400, dep wrote: On Thursday 13 September 2001 21:42, Joel Hammer wrote: | Those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedom may find | one day their personal choices reduced to burning to death or | jumping 80 stories. Joel those who cry out for no restraints on personal freedoms will happily point out to you that, as has been the case on the lirr and elsewhere in the past, one good man with a gun would have solved the problem with considerably less loss of life. -- I agree. Why they don't arm the pilots is beyond me. Joel Good thought but I think the problem is that they would have a dillemma if some crazies are banging on the cockpit door while they hold a knife to one or more stews/passengers and all the while the pilots are supposed to be flying the plane.Doesn't sound like a healthy situation to me. If there were 3 or 4 crazies, the pilots would probably have to shoot through 3 or 4 hostages in order to kill the crazies. Might be a necessary trade-off but still not a nice situation. Israel's El-Al airlines found a solution to this when they were founded, well over 30 years ago. Every flight carries a Flight Marshall who is armed with a very large gun. El-Al is notably one of the few world airlines that has never been hijacked, nor had any losses of life. = Lonni J. Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux FAQ Step-by-step help: http://netllama.ipfox.com . __ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
On Thursday 13 September 2001 22:41 pm, dep wrote: | If there were 3 or 4 crazies, the pilots would probably have to | shoot through 3 or 4 hostages in order to kill the crazies. Might | be a necessary trade-off but still not a nice situation. in all known experience, people who want to hijack planes manage to do it, in no small measure because the people onboard are sitting ducks. and if even two or three passengers chose to be armed, there is nothing in world history to suggest that their being armed would cause them suddenly to become hijackers. It would be great if they allowed people with carry permits to carry weapons on board with prior notification. I think they should do the same for teachers with permits with proper storage of the weapon. Sure would have saved some lives in the past. -- ++ + Bruce S. Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bellaire, MI 09/13/01 22:59 + ++ Pray for the success of atheism. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: New York WTC
Oh dear! We are in chaos at the moment in that next to Qantas, Ansett our big internal and NZ air carrier has just gone belly up, 16000 lost jobs. There are rallies on all over plus Sydney airport has gone on strike. The workers entitlements up about 4.5mill look bad. So now we are shut down airwise. The Airline was bought by Air NewZealand and Singapore Airlines a short while ago and now its gutted by all accounts. Rick Sivernell wrote: Skippy The news here is showing support from around the world, we have friends everywhere. Thanks I understand skippy. On a nicer note, our air miles have gone over the 100k mark. We are getting closer to that time when we may be able to make our trip to land of Kangaroosg. Just can hardly wait. I have want to se your home country for a long time. cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- Keith Antoine aka Skippy 18 Arkana St, The Gap, Queensland, 4061, Australia PH: 61 7 33002161 Certified Professional Geriatric, Sometime Electronics Engineer, Knowall!! Insensible phone computer assistance a speciality. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
