Re: [WSG] background overlapping

2006-11-03 Thread Germ
aaa yes that helps a lot, thanks for thatOn 11/3/06, Peter Asquith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 3/11/2006, at 4:17 PM, Germ wrote:
Im designing a website for my university design exhibition and it looks fine in IE (6 i think it is) but in firefox the bunch of links overlap the white content about 5 pixels and it just looks a bit tacky. as far as i can see the code looks ok. 
Because you've added a 5px margin at the top of the links div you'll need to subtract the 5px from the height of the div. The links CSS becomes:  
#links {	float: left;	width: 350px;
	height: 207px;	margin-top: 5px;	background: url(
http://www.curtinmovingon.com/images/Background.jpg);
	}RegardsPeter 
--Peter Asquith[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wasabicube.com 
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[WSG] Legal or Ilegal

2006-11-03 Thread kate
Hya,

I have a domain 'jungaling.com. Its a web site (eventually about Asia's
flora and fauna. Someone else has the domain 'Wild Asia'.

I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a
beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want to
change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal?
Thanks
Kate



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Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal

2006-11-03 Thread Steve Olive
On 11/3/06, kate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hya,I have a domain 'jungaling.com. Its a web site (eventually about Asia'sflora and fauna. Someone else has the domain 'Wild Asia'.I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a
beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want tochange the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal?ThanksKateHi Kate,You need to look at the licence for the theme - it could be a Creative Commons Licence (
http://creativecommons.org/), or GNU Public Licence, shareware or freeware.I found the template I think you are referring too:
http://www.joomla24.com/Joomla_1.0.x_Downloads/Templates_for_Joomla_1.0.x/Digitaleye_Green.htmlIt appears to be free and could be editted - but remember someone else could also use this template. You really need to develop your own brand, which could be based on the Digitaleye_Green theme, but would identify your site uniquely.
Hope this helps,-- Regards,SteveBathurst Computer SolutionsURL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.aue-mail: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Mobile: 0407 224 251 _... (0)... / / \.. / / . ).. V_/_Linux Powered!Registered Linux User #355382

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Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal

2006-11-03 Thread Lachlan Hunt

kate wrote:

I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a
beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want to
change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal?


Questions about legal issues, like copyright, are off-topic for this 
list.  Check the copyright notice on the design and/or ask the author 
for permission.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal

2006-11-03 Thread Brian Cummiskey

kate wrote:

 I want to
change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal?
  

Not without permission to do so.


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Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal

2006-11-03 Thread kate
Ok thanks Lachlan
Kate
- Original Message - 
From: Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal


 kate wrote:
  I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its green, the logo has a
  beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 'Digital Eye'. I want to
  change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal?
 
 Questions about legal issues, like copyright, are off-topic for this 
 list.  Check the copyright notice on the design and/or ask the author 
 for permission.
 
 -- 
 Lachlan Hunt
 http://lachy.id.au/
 
 
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Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal

2006-11-03 Thread kate



Hya Steve,
Being new to WSG and first post I made an error 
asking that question.

I got it from a Mambo source which is open source. 
I can buy into Template club to get the PSD but asking around the graphic was 
too complicated to edit the text which DE said would be ok. Anyway I believe 
that DE will edit the text for me if I understand his message correct on his 
forum.

I think I best choose new text for the logo. I 
could never even get close to creating something like that Steve.

If we are allowed a link here it is:
http://jungaling.com/wildtreasures/index.php

My apologies to Russ for the question
Kate

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Steve Olive 
  
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:23 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal
  
  On 11/3/06, kate 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  Hya,I 
have a domain 'jungaling.com. Its a web 
site (eventually about Asia'sflora and fauna. Someone else has the 
domain 'Wild Asia'.I found for the Mambo this awesome template. Its 
green, the logo has a beautiful Butterfly and under that is the name 
'Digital Eye'. I want tochange the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this 
legal?ThanksKateHi Kate,You 
  need to look at the licence for the theme - it could be a Creative Commons 
  Licence ( http://creativecommons.org/), or GNU 
  Public Licence, shareware or freeware.I found the template I think you 
  are referring too:http://www.joomla24.com/Joomla_1.0.x_Downloads/Templates_for_Joomla_1.0.x/Digitaleye_Green.htmlIt 
  appears to be free and could be editted - but remember someone else could also 
  use this template. You really need to develop your own "brand", which could be 
  based on the Digitaleye_Green theme, but would identify your site uniquely. 
  Hope this helps,-- Regards,SteveBathurst 
  Computer SolutionsURL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.aue-mail: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mobile: 
  0407 224 251 _... (0)... / / \.. / / . ).. 
  V_/_Linux Powered!Registered Linux User 
  #355382***List 
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Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal

2006-11-03 Thread kate
Hya Brian,
They know about the change of text and maybe, just maybe they hinted they
would do the change for me this morning when I went to the forum.The
question now is to what? The site is about Asia wildlife etc.
Thanks Brian.
Kate
- Original Message -
From: Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Legal or Ilegal


 kate wrote:
   I want to
  change the Digital Eye to Wild Asia is this legal?
 
 Not without permission to do so.


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[WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)

2006-11-03 Thread Rahul Gonsalves

Hi All,

http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/

I have another version here, with the columns background shown, to help 
you see how out of alignment it is in IE:

http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/columns.html

The page displays as intended in Opera and Firefox 2, but in IE is a 
*mess*. I don't quite know where to start, I wonder whether anybody has 
any solutions?


Specific problems:
1. Why is the header (Rahul Gonsalves...) so much lower in IE? Fix?
2. The h2s are all out of alignment. Does this have to do with the 
faulty box-model?

3. Why is the image so far out to the left? Fix?
4. How does one fix the paragraph alignment?

Thanks in advance,
 - Rahul.


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Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas

2006-11-03 Thread Barney Carroll
Andreas, you elucidate what I mean pretty well. Christian - I know it's 
a shame that the only way I could express myself somehow makes 
standardistas look bad through implication. I don't want to give that 
idea at all. As for naming and shaming, I object to the notion strongly. 
The kind of bully I'm referring to doesn't include any particularly 
accredited or influential tyrants, it's just for the most part faceless 
extremists who use the banner of good intentions to spout domineering 
vitriol. To go and 'sort these people out' would be lowering to their 
level, and besides these people tend to be able to create their own 
flame wars very easily by themselves!



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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Mel

on 03/11/2006 00:59 Matthew Hodgson said the following:
snip

In the end, we learned the following lessons about vision impaired users
and screen readers:



a)   Only a completely blind person used the screen reader.

snip

Although you were talking about visually-impaired users and screen 
readers, I just thought it was worth pointing out that those suffering 
from severe dyslexia often use screen readers for support.


So it maybe unwise to assume that a screen reader user can't see.

Mel




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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Mel

on 03/11/2006 07:50 kate said the following:


What about users with cognitive disibilities? Its a very wide
catagorie which includes, simple dyslexia to extreme mental retardation.
Apparently these people regularly use the web as a  primary imformation
source so must be considered.

Would they understand the wording 'Go to Menu' etc? Never having the need to
use a screen reader its a question I wanted to ask.


A dyslexic using a sreenreader for support almost certainly won't have a 
problem with the wording once they hear it.


At the more extreme end of the cognitive issues group, it's highly 
likely that very basic concepts such as using links will escape them and 
they may have difficulty with all but the simplest of language. In these 
situations, users often need 'hand over hand' support (ie someone 
sitting with them  - explaining and guiding them). Using conceptual 
icons can help both groups to some extent but there does come a a point 
when there is very little a designer can do to alleviate the problems 
and it's really down to training, support and experience at the user's end.


Mel




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Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)

2006-11-03 Thread John Faulds

For your home page, this in base.css:

body { text-align: center; margin: 0 auto; width: 770px;}

seems to be conflicting with what you're trying to do in index.css.

On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:59:31 +1000, Rahul Gonsalves  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Hi All,

http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/

I have another version here, with the columns background shown, to help  
you see how out of alignment it is in IE:

http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/columns.html

The page displays as intended in Opera and Firefox 2, but in IE is a  
*mess*. I don't quite know where to start, I wonder whether anybody has  
any solutions?


Specific problems:
1. Why is the header (Rahul Gonsalves...) so much lower in IE? Fix?
2. The h2s are all out of alignment. Does this have to do with the  
faulty box-model?

3. Why is the image so far out to the left? Fix?
4. How does one fix the paragraph alignment?

Thanks in advance,
  - Rahul.


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--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Rahul Gonsalves

Bruce wrote:

I have been following this with great interest.
What I have been considering (I know its been covered before) is putting 
a link at the top of the page,

go to text version
Go to menu

I would think that screen reader users would find that a good addition 
to be able to read an article in text only, and a shortcut to scan 
articles which also have brief title tags in addition to descriptive 
titles.


In my design content comes first already...


Hi Bruce, et al.

This is a study, albeit with a small sample size, done on source order 
and accessibility. I think it was done by the list owner 
(Russ/Maxdesign) so perhaps he could chip in if there's been any updates 
to it since I've seen it.


http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/

I wonder whether any of the conclusions that were drawn in the study, 
are still valid, or whether there has been further research to either 
supplement or contradict it? Specifically, one observation, The 
majority of screen reader users EXPECT navigation to be presented before 
the content. [1], and the subsequent statement  Our research showed no 
clear overall PREFERENCE of source order [2], seem to lead me to 
believe that there is no real reason to attempt to have layouts with the 
source order first. Rather than attempting to put content first (which 
seems to confuse inexperienced screen reader users [3]), I would be 
attempting to put structural labels, as suggested in [4].


I'd be interested to hearing from people with actual experience, and or 
research, since all my conclusions are arrived at second-hand.


Regards,
 - Rahul.

[1] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section36
[2] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section37
[3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section38
[4] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section41


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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?

2006-11-03 Thread Barney Carroll

Which is semantically worse, and why?

1. Just manually putting the extra space in the markup.
2. Manually putting an extra inline element around the full stop and 
styling said element to create a presentational space.


To me, they seem just as bad as each other - in the first instance 
because there is no meaning or purpose behind a genuine double space, 
and the desire is purely presentational; but in the second there is also 
semantically unjustifiable extra markup (more of it by volume - but at 
least it doesn't impinge upon real content) and requires even more 
stupid hard work in going about manually or dynamically editing the 
content to insert these tags...



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Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)

2006-11-03 Thread Rahul Gonsalves

John Faulds wrote:

For your home page, this in base.css:

body { text-align: center; margin: 0 auto; width: 770px;}

seems to be conflicting with what you're trying to do in index.css.



Whoops!

Thanks for catching that - I meant to make the pages dependent on 
completely separate style sheets. I've updated it to reflect this.


http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/

Thanks,
 - Rahul.


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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Barney Carroll

@ Rahul:

The preference thing is very strange. I read another small study where 
the findings indicated that the 2nd biggest problem for screen reader 
users was to find that the nav wasn't the first thing available. I'll 
try to find the article.


My conjecture prior to this would be that, unless you are on a homepage 
with contents significantly greater than a simple blurb and a few 'quick 
links', you would not want to be informed of where you can go from 
somewhere immediately after arriving - and besides if the page did turn 
out to be not exactly what you wanted, you would start tabbing then 
rather than having to tab to avoid listing all your options over again.


Another finding of the study was that site map presentation and 
immediate availability were key factors in getting the sus of a site 
without visual recognition.


By the way, could anyone elaborate on what tab-indexing is? And how does 
the Alt+# system work? These seem to be crucial elements of screen 
reader browsing but I have a very limited grasp of their convention and 
application.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Barney Carroll

@Matthew Hodgson:

That's brilliantly useful information, Matthew. It is interesting you 
mention screen magnifying, because it is my company's policy to use ems 
as measurements as far as possible, based on the conjecture that 
partially-sighted people would probably want to increase their default 
font-size, and having the whole site (within reason) scale with that 
would make the whole design far more continuous.


I recently discovered my Mac's zoom function (I'm forever startled by 
serendipity while slipping on F keys) which was nice. On a related note, 
I was horrified to see the effects of what I thought was IE7's text-size 
scrolling (Ctrl + mouse wheel up/down) - IE is still really bad at 
re-sizing images (FF is beautiful) and using this function, rather than 
simply zoom in on the rendered image, it attempts to re-render the whole 
thing based on botched calculations and creates some hideous results. 
This function, however, is not text-size scrolling (as it is with every 
other browser). IE7 still retains the 5 size scrolling but this is 
accessible only through the menu. I think this change is rather bad 
because we all expect those two actions to produce the same process, and 
also it's just not very good and creates a horrible experience for 
anyone who'd wish to use it.


Is default text size adjustment as common as I'd presumed in the 
partially-sighted community, or is it for the majority, as you suggest, 
magnification that is used instead?


@Steve Green:

Steve, what you're doing is exactly what I wanted to hear! Sadly as much 
as I approve and would want to take part, I can't justify this time off 
work - my boss has no problem with sending me to design conferences up 
and down the country, but as far as building on accessibility, company 
policy is just to accept general standards. As long as you can stamp the 
site with 'valid code', 'works without script', and 'no tables'... 
There's no commercial incentive to put any serious work or insight into 
accessibility (at least as far as our practice dictates).


@Frances:

The schism between web designers and developers is a terrible thing 
wherever it appears... And you're right - only pointed work on the part 
of designers to understand developers and influence them is going to 
heal the rifts.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Rahul Gonsalves

Bruce wrote:
I would think that screen reader users would find that a good addition 
to be able to read an article in text only, and a shortcut to scan 
articles which also have brief title tags in addition to descriptive 
titles.


In my design content comes first already...


Not really at Bruce anymore..

This article seems to be good food for thought (and it references the 
earlier study that I did ;-) ).


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/workingwithothers

Regards,
 - Rahul.


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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?

2006-11-03 Thread Rob Kirton
BarneyThere is effectively no semantic difference. To stop the spread of grey goo on the net, the only semantics we shoud be worried about are those which are picked up by search engines, and a span class=sentence means equally as little as nbsp;nbsp; to these. It is also of little consequence to user agents if implemented correctly.
When visually examined by another human, most likley for site maintenance purposes, either technique will be able to convey the meaning. If you do have to use double space, I would suggest use the no breaks as it cuts down on page length and embeded tags  
- Robhttp://ele.vation.co.ukOn 03/11/06, Barney Carroll 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Which is semantically worse, and why?1. Just manually putting the extra space in the markup.
2. Manually putting an extra inline element around the full stop andstyling said element to create a presentational space.To me, they seem just as bad as each other - in the first instancebecause there is no meaning or purpose behind a genuine double space,
and the desire is purely presentational; but in the second there is alsosemantically unjustifiable extra markup (more of it by volume - but atleast it doesn't impinge upon real content) and requires even more
stupid hard work in going about manually or dynamically editing thecontent to insert these tags...***List Guidelines: 
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Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)

2006-11-03 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Rahul Gonsalves wrote:


http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/columns.html

The page displays as intended in Opera and Firefox 2, but in IE is a 
*mess*. I don't quite know where to start, I wonder whether anybody 
has any solutions?


1. Why is the header (Rahul Gonsalves...) so much lower in IE? Fix?


To fix it, add...
#logo p#access {float: left; width: 100%;}

Note the specificity.

2. The h2s are all out of alignment. Does this have to do with the 
faulty box-model?


No, it's the old 'margin-doubling on floats' bug in IE/win.

#content h2 { margin: -.33em 0 0 125px; float: left; width: 125px;
display: inline /* IE-fix */;}


3. Why is the image so far out to the left? Fix?


Working version...
#content img.m { clear: both; margin: 2em 0 0 125px; float: left;}
...and add a clearing below the image...
#content .caption {clear: both;}


4. How does one fix the paragraph alignment?


If I have understood you correctly, then I've already included a fix for
it under problem 2, with a negative margin-top on h2 - making it line up
with the paragraph.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Barney Carroll

Rahul Gonsalves wrote:
This article seems to be good food for thought (and it references the 
earlier study that I did ;-) ).


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/workingwithothers


It was after reading this that I found the guts to question Talibani 
standards tyrants. It's an absolutely fantastic article that everyone 
should read - some of the best web philosophy that's ever been on ALA.



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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Mel

on 03/11/2006 10:50 Rahul Gonsalves said the following:
snip

http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/


I wonder whether any of the conclusions that were drawn in the study, 
are still valid, or whether there has been further research to either 
supplement or contradict it? Specifically, one observation, The 
majority of screen reader users EXPECT navigation to be presented before 
the content. [1], and the subsequent statement  Our research showed no 
clear overall PREFERENCE of source order [2], seem to lead me to 
believe that there is no real reason to attempt to have layouts with the 
source order first.

snip

I'd be interested to hearing from people with actual experience, and or 
research, since all my conclusions are arrived at second-hand.


I also did a very small study on page order with some experienced 
pan-disability users/testers from the Shaw Trust 
(www..shaw-trust.org.uk) about a year ago.


The feedback that I received confirmed the findings above. Users 
expected site navigation to be presented before content. Overall, the 
testers felt that placing content before navigation didn't offer any 
real benefits - especially as it was contrary to their expectations and 
previous experience. So it would seem that, once a 'trend' is well 
established, going against it (even for the best of reasons) can create 
its own issues. Users, generally, don't like being suprised or being 
made to think as they try to move around a site or page.


In a separate, earlier, piece of research, I came across screen reader 
users who preferred to access content before navigation and achieved 
this by simply jumping to the bottom of the page and working upwards 
as standard. So it would seem that screen reader users are perfectly 
capable of developing their own individual strategies to maximise the 
chances of page content being rendered in the order that they prefer. 
But, again, this kind of strategy is based upon the expectation that 
content will be placed after navigation. If you design contrary to that 
expectation, the end result may be disorientations and/or frustration 
for this sub-group.


In the past 12 months, I've not come across any newer studies that would 
suggest anything has changed.


Hope that helps.

Mel



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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread Mel

on 03/11/2006 11:18 Barney Carroll said the following:
snip
By the way, could anyone elaborate on what tab-indexing is? And how does 
the Alt+# system work? These seem to be crucial elements of screen 
reader browsing but I have a very limited grasp of their convention and 
application.


Tabindexing allow a designer to specify the order in which links or 
controls receive focus on a page when using the TAB key to move around. 
Elements on a page that do not have an associated tabindex will have a 
'natural' ordering (ie follwong the order they appear in the markup). If 
you mix the two, the elements with a specified tabindex will come first 
followed by unindexed elements.


Speaking as an intermittent keyboard navigator/VR user, I consider 
tabindexing to be the spawn of satan - especially when it runs contrary 
to the 'natural' or expected tab order on a page.


For example, if I land on a page which renders some content containing a 
few links followed by a form, I expect to be able to tab to the links 
first followed by the forum controls. One common use of tabindexing that 
I come across in this situation gives preference to the form controls 
and leaves the links unindexed. So, when I hit the TAB key expecting to 
jump to the first link, I actually end up on the form and often have to 
tab through the whole thing to get back to the links which, visually, 
are actually higher up the page. The end result (especially if there is 
a lack of visual highlighting on focus) is often complete 
disorientations and exasperation. On really bad pages, I sometimes have 
to rely on reading the browser status bar just to try and figure out 
where I'm tabbing to!


If I had one thing (OK- one thing amongst many) to ask of other 
designers it would be Please don't create tab orders that are 
unintuitive!. Users (in the West, anyway) expect tab ordering to follow 
a left-to-right top-to-bottom rule and, as soon as you mess with that, 
you create confusion.


By the 'Alt+# system', I assume you mean accesskeys. It's a way of 
defining keyboard shortcuts which, in theory, allow users to jump to, 
for example, the Search item on the menu by selecting ALT+s. Depending 
on the browser being used, the user may then have to press ENTER to 
activate the link. The designer can define which keys, in conjunction 
with ALT (or CTRL on a Mac) relate to which links by means of the 
accesskey attribute.


However, there are problems associated with defining accesskeys on a 
site as they can over-ride pre-existing keyboard shortcuts in the user's 
software.


http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=43

has a fairly comprehensive list whilst

http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=32

also has makes some interesting points.

Since the release of Firefox 2.0, there are also problems with using 
numeric accesskeys on sites.


http://juicystudio.com/article/firefox2-accesskeys.php

My own experience and research suggests that most of the users that 
designers *assume* will want to use accesskeys don't bother with them. 
They vary too much from site to site to be really useful. Providing the 
tab order is intuitive, users prefer to simply tab around pages or use 
options within their own software (which they know far better than a 
random site) to jump to specific points on a page or site rather than 
research a whole list of new keyboard shortcuts on every site they visit.


Gez Lemon and Rich Pedley developed a php AccessKeys class that allows 
users to define their own access keys . In theory, users could define 
the same subset of keys on every site that uses this approach:


http://juicystudio.com/article/user-defined-accesskeys.php

Gez has also since developed an .ASP version:

http://juicystudio.com/article/user-defined-access-keys-aspversion.php

However, I don't think either version has been around long enough, or is 
implemented widely enough, to indicate how many keyboard navigators 
actually use make use of the facility when it's offered. I know I've 
never bothered. :-)


Mel



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[WSG] Real world font sizing

2006-11-03 Thread Tony Crockford

Just to clear up my confusion.

I've been in the habit of setting font-size on body to 100.01% because 
AIUI it stops IE doing silly small font sizes when you use ems elsewhere 
and the .01 is for Opera and a weird rounding issue.


recently I picked up the habit of setting body to 62.5% from 
http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/



which I think is wrong, from what I'm hearing  seeing recently...

is it okay to set body to 100.01% and then use ems on elements to meet 
the designers whim?


maybe I don't mean *okay* per se,[1] but assuming I have to set a font 
size to meet a clients brief, which would be the most respectful way?


100.01% on body and elements sized using ems (by trial and error) or 
some other way?


bearing in mind that I'm working remotely from the designer client, who 
is often designing on a Mac what settings would let me choose font sizes 
that would look like they match the visual I'm working to, without 
causing problems for users with different preferences?




TIA


[1] I assume not setting any size is best, but in the real world my 
income depends on making web sites match a signed off visual




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Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing

2006-11-03 Thread Rob Kirton
TonyI would stick with the original approach and then re-size up using ems. The clagnut article recommended first scaling everything down to 62.5% for ease of calculation when scaling back up using ems. The premise was that a 'default' text size of 16pt would be scaled down to 10pt and then you take it from there.
I do believe that somebody else (can't find source right now) suggested first scaling down to 76% and then resizing up. Not for ease of calculation, as per clagnut, but as a result of empirical tests which showed that this produced the most consistent result in terms of final font size across all browsers / platforms
- Robhttp:/ele.vation.co.ukOn 03/11/06, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just to clear up my confusion.I've been in the habit of setting font-size on body to 
100.01% becauseAIUI it stops IE doing silly small font sizes when you use ems elsewhereand the .01 is for Opera and a weird rounding issue.recently I picked up the habit of setting body to 62.5% from
http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/which I think is wrong, from what I'm hearing  seeing recently...is it okay to set body to 100.01% and then use ems on elements to meetthe designers whim?
maybe I don't mean *okay* per se,[1] but assuming I have to set a fontsize to meet a clients brief, which would be the most respectful way?100.01% on body and elements sized using ems (by trial and error) or
some other way?bearing in mind that I'm working remotely from the designer client, whois often designing on a Mac what settings would let me choose font sizesthat would look like they match the visual I'm working to, without
causing problems for users with different preferences?TIA[1] I assume not setting any size is best, but in the real world myincome depends on making web sites match a signed off visual
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Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)

2006-11-03 Thread Rahul Gonsalves

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Rahul Gonsalves wrote:


http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/index.html

1. Why is the header (Rahul Gonsalves...) so much lower in IE? Fix?


To fix it, add...
#logo p#access {float: left; width: 100%;}

Note the specificity.

2. The h2s are all out of alignment. Does this have to do with the 
faulty box-model?


No, it's the old 'margin-doubling on floats' bug in IE/win.

#content h2 { margin: -.33em 0 0 125px; float: left; width: 125px;
display: inline /* IE-fix */;}


3. Why is the image so far out to the left? Fix?


Working version...
#content img.m { clear: both; margin: 2em 0 0 125px; float: left;}
...and add a clearing below the image...
#content .caption {clear: both;}


4. How does one fix the paragraph alignment?


If I have understood you correctly, then I've already included a fix for
it under problem 2, with a negative margin-top on h2 - making it line up
with the paragraph.

regards
Georg


Georg,

I am in awe of your CSS. Four lines, and 100% fixed. I truly appreciate 
this.


The only small, niggling thing left is that whenever there is a 
paragraph preceded by a h2, it seems to be adjusted, only by a pixel or 
two, to the right. Any ideas as to how I could fix this? It's a small 
thing, but since the design hangs on a grid, a little misalignment looks 
pretty nasty.


Regards,
 - Rahul.



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Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas

2006-11-03 Thread Christian Montoya

On 11/3/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Andreas, you elucidate what I mean pretty well. Christian - I know it's
a shame that the only way I could express myself somehow makes
standardistas look bad through implication. I don't want to give that
idea at all. As for naming and shaming, I object to the notion strongly.
The kind of bully I'm referring to doesn't include any particularly
accredited or influential tyrants, it's just for the most part faceless
extremists who use the banner of good intentions to spout domineering
vitriol. To go and 'sort these people out' would be lowering to their
level, and besides these people tend to be able to create their own
flame wars very easily by themselves!


Yeah, I see that now. I guess there's no need to do any sorting, I
was just concerned about us turning misunderstandings into serious
disagreements.


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christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-03 Thread russ - maxdesign
 http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/
 
 I wonder whether any of the conclusions that were drawn in the study,
 are still valid, or whether there has been further research to either
 supplement or contradict it? Specifically, one observation, The
 majority of screen reader users EXPECT navigation to be presented before
 the content. [1], and the subsequent statement  Our research showed no
 clear overall PREFERENCE of source order [2], seem to lead me to
 believe that there is no real reason to attempt to have layouts with the
 source order first. Rather than attempting to put content first (which
 seems to confuse inexperienced screen reader users [3]), I would be
 attempting to put structural labels, as suggested in [4].
 
 I'd be interested to hearing from people with actual experience, and or
 research, since all my conclusions are arrived at second-hand.

Hi Rahul,

The full article to support the presentation you have linked to is here:
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm

While no further research has been undertaken by Roger, Lisa or I in this
specific area, we are still working with blind users regularly. In fact, I
have been sitting watching blind users today.

What struck us during testing last year, and has been confirmed on many
occasions since, is that:

1. Source order is often irrelevant as most screen reader users and
refreshable Braille device users [1] have a variety of ways that they can
move around pages quickly (skipping to heading levels, links, forms, form
elements, as well as tabbing quickly through content and doing direct
searches for content on the page). The concept of top and bottom of
pages often becomes irrelevant.

2. Well structured content is a VERY important aid for blind users as it
allows them to use their preferred method of moving around the page. Poorly
structured pages often do not allow this to occur.

3. Assistive markup in forms and tables is also vital. The testing carried
out today confirmed this with blind users having a great deal of trouble
filling in forms due to poorly labelled input elements (or in some cases no
labelling at all).

4. Structural labels are not critical but are quite helpful as they flag
sections of the page. They act almost like street signs, allowing people to
know where they are within the pages content.

One quick test for all of this is simply to turn off all styles and read the
content of your (unstyled) page. Does it make sense to you? Is the content
running together? Are headings helping to break the content into meaningful
chunks?

The second quick test is to then tab around the page with the keyboard only
and see how hard it all is to use.  :)

HTH
Russ

[1] http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885/




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Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing

2006-11-03 Thread Matthew Pennell
On 11/3/06, Rob Kirton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I do believe that somebody else (can't find source right now) suggested first scaling down to 76% and then resizing up. Not for ease of calculation, as per clagnut, but as a result of empirical tests which showed that this produced the most consistent result in terms of final font size across all browsers / platforms
That was from thenoodleincident.com text size tests IIRC.

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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

2006-11-03 Thread Rob Scherer
Hi,  I'm out of the office and will return on Wednesday 8 November.

I look forward to responding to your query on Wednesday.

Regards

Rob Scherer
Seek Ltd


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[WSG] Are we turning the tide?

2006-11-03 Thread Chris Taylor
Derek recently said:

 Perhaps we are doing a pretty darn good job. Sadly though, we are
not in the majority. And therein lies the difficulty. When we talk about
we doing a pretty darn good job, we're talking about - what - maybe 5%
of web professionals worldwide? More, less? I'm not sure but we're not
in the majority as far as I can tell.

So how are we doing, does anybody know? I'd be very interested to see
even rough figures on the percentage of standards and
accessibility-aware designers/developers compared to others. Admittedly
I spend my time reading, writing and talking with other standardistas so
my perception is almost certainly very skewed, but from what I see we've
made a huge amount of progress.

While the recent Sitepoint survey [1] showed that over 60% of
respondants used CSS primarily for layout this could well be to do
with the fact that Sitepoint caters for a standards-savvy audience. So,
are there any numbers out there that would show a more realistic
appraisal of the reach of web standards?

Cheers

Chris

[1] http://www.sitepoint.com/article/survey-web-dev-stereotypes


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Re: [WSG] Are we turning the tide?

2006-11-03 Thread Matthew Pennell
On 11/3/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So how are we doing, does anybody know? I'd be very interested to seeeven rough figures on the percentage of standards andaccessibility-aware designers/developers compared to others. AdmittedlyI spend my time reading, writing and talking with other standardistas so
my perception is almost certainly very skewed, but from what I see we'vemade a huge amount of progress.I recently contacted all the local web freelancers and agencies when setting up a local community site - perhaps 1/3 had sites that used CSS layout, but then that may be skewed because I found them all via Google, so maybe their expertise got them higher up the search results.
By comparison I looked at local agencies in another city a year or so ago, and I was the only one using CSS, at least on my own site.Matthew.

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Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing

2006-11-03 Thread ~davidLaakso

Tony Crockford wrote:

Just to clear up my confusion.

I've been in the habit of setting font-size on body to 100.01% because 
AIUI it stops IE doing silly small font sizes when you use ems 
elsewhere and the .01 is for Opera and a weird rounding issue.
recently I picked up the habit of setting body to 62.5% from 
http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/ 


[trimmed]
There is, in my mind, nothing intrinsically wrong with either the 62.5 
or 100.01% method. As for myself, I prefer 100%/normal on the body 
declaration, followed by  the use of /percent/ on necessary selectors, 
with line-height set as a raw number.

Regards,
~dL

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Re: [WSG] Are we turning the tide?

2006-11-03 Thread Christian Montoya

On 11/3/06, Matthew Pennell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 11/3/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 So how are we doing, does anybody know? I'd be very interested to see
 even rough figures on the percentage of standards and
 accessibility-aware designers/developers compared to others. Admittedly
 I spend my time reading, writing and talking with other standardistas so
 my perception is almost certainly very skewed, but from what I see we've
 made a huge amount of progress.


I recently contacted all the local web freelancers and agencies when setting
up a local community site - perhaps 1/3 had sites that used CSS layout, but
then that may be skewed because I found them all via Google, so maybe their
expertise got them higher up the search results.

By comparison I looked at local agencies in another city a year or so ago,
and I was the only one using CSS, at least on my own site.


You could always browse a directory like http://www.xemion.com/ by
region and look at the portfolios of various designers/agencies. I
think you'll find we are definitely in the minority.

Where I am (Ithaca NY), there's very little CSS-based work; they even
teach outdated practices:
http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/11/02/advanced-html/

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[WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Hello there,

   I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing,
a friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it
immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'm
stumped as to what might be causing it.

   The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org

   Anyone run into a similar problem before?

   I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing the
concept and haven't re-done any graphics yet.


   Cheers,
  Rob O



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Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing

2006-11-03 Thread Felix Miata
On 2006/11/03 12:41 (GMT) Tony Crockford apparently typed:

 I've been in the habit of setting font-size on body to 100.01% because 
 AIUI it stops IE doing silly small font sizes when you use ems elsewhere 
 and the .01 is for Opera and a weird rounding issue.

Wasn't Opera fixed in that regard about 3 major versions ago?

 recently I picked up the habit of setting body to 62.5% from 
 http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/
 which I think is wrong, from what I'm hearing  seeing recently...

Some characteristics of that method:
1-a very simple user stylesheet containing only htmlbody {font-size:
medium !important} in order to restore less extreme deviations from his
preference will resize things not only larger than the page author
intended, but also larger than the visitor prefers.
2-different browsers apply the user's minimum font size differently:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_03_04.html
3-IE truncates the 62.5% to 62%:
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/bugs/browsers/css/IE-Win/ie_percent_test.html

 is it okay to set body to 100.01% and then use ems on elements to meet 
 the designers whim?

 maybe I don't mean *okay* per se,[1] but assuming I have to set a font 
 size to meet a clients brief, which would be the most respectful way?

Consider asking the client if he has troubled himself to appropriately
adjust his own browser(s) so that unstyled text is the size he prefers.
Once he understands that this is the right thing to assume everyone has
done, even though some subset of the universe actually goes to that
trouble, . . .

 100.01% on body and elements sized using ems (by trial and error) or 
 some other way?

. . . there's no need to set anything other than 100% on body, which
also means no need to set anything at all on body.

That leaves the size of various elements that the design requires be
contextually sized, like captions, footers and headings, to be sized by
any appropriate relative sizing method, %  em included.

 bearing in mind that I'm working remotely from the designer client, who 
 is often designing on a Mac what settings would let me choose font sizes 
 that would look like they match the visual I'm working to, without 
 causing problems for users with different preferences?

 [1] I assume not setting any size is best, but in the real world my 
 income depends on making web sites match a signed off visual
-- 
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven.
Matthew 5:12 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread James Crooke
Nice page Rob, I like the scrolling mark-up.
On 11/3/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello there, I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing,a friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it
immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'mstumped as to what might be causing it. The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org
 Anyone run into a similar problem before? I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing theconcept and haven't re-done any graphics yet. Cheers,Rob O
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-- James 

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RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Steve Green
I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump
immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is when it
jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you press the Tab
key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is turned off.
Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke
Sent: 03 November 2006 16:08
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

Hello there,

I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing, a
friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it
immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'm stumped
as to what might be causing it.

The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org

Anyone run into a similar problem before?

I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing the
concept and haven't re-done any graphics yet.


Cheers,
   Rob O



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Re: [WSG] IE Issues (margin/padding)

2006-11-03 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Rahul Gonsalves wrote:


http://rahulgonsalves.com/v2/index.html


The only small, niggling thing left is that whenever there is a 
paragraph preceded by a h2, it seems to be adjusted, only by a pixel 
or two, to the right. Any ideas as to how I could fix this? It's a 
small thing, but since the design hangs on a grid, a little 
misalignment looks pretty nasty.


I agree... :-) ...and I should have fixed it the first time around
without mentioning it. Now I have to add a longish explanation.


It's 3px offset in IE6 (and older), and that's why it's called the '3px
jog' bug.

The most stable fix is to remove the floating h2 at the left of the
paragraph, so IE/win doesn't add interaction between those two elements
into its buggy calculations.
No interaction = no '3px jog' bug.

Removing a float can be done by pulling in one or both of its backside
margins, so the float no longer takes up space in front of another element.
Method described here...

http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_demo_float_03.html

...but since other elements should still interact with the headline in
your page, a smaller and more precise negative backside margin value is
necessary. The idea is to partly remove the float from the flow.


A working fix is to put a suitable negative margin-bottom on the
floating headline to...

#content h2 { margin: -.33em 0 -1.1em 125px;}

...and the headline is partly gone and does no longer take up space in
front of the paragraph. It's still perfectly aligned and visible though.

There's no need to hack in this IE-fix, since it's perfectly valid and
all browsers will handle negative backside margins the same way - giving
you a cross-browser reliable line-up.
You may however want to add a bit more 'margin-top' on elements
following directly below such a partly removed float, as they will end
up 1.1em higher than before.

Hope the above makes sense.


(I wonder if this qualifies as a rotten fix using standards, and if
so if it makes me a rotten standardista (or something) :-P )

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing

2006-11-03 Thread Nick Fitzsimons

On 3 Nov 2006, at 16:32:27, Felix Miata wrote:


3-IE truncates the 62.5% to 62%:
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/bugs/browsers/css/IE-Win/ 
ie_percent_test.html


Just a quick note: this remains the case in IE 7.

Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Real world font sizing

2006-11-03 Thread Tony Crockford

Felix Miata wrote:

Consider asking the client if he has troubled himself to appropriately
adjust his own browser(s) so that unstyled text is the size he prefers.
Once he understands that this is the right thing to assume everyone has
done, even though some subset of the universe actually goes to that
trouble, . . .


I have many clients and most of them have no idea about resetting the 
default size, and as for *their* clients - the web site commissioning 
businessman -  even fewer understand there's a choice of browsers, let 
alone settings you can fiddle with...


I wish there were a way to collect data on how users have set font-size 
in their browsers, we'd have some better facts then...



. . . there's no need to set anything other than 100% on body, which
also means no need to set anything at all on body.


unfortunately leaving body font-size unset and setting a sub 1em size on 
text, e.g 0.8em will allow IE6 to produce miniscule fonts at view text 
smallest  so I guess I'll just stick to


body {font-size: 100%}

to prevent IE6 going daft.



That leaves the size of various elements that the design requires be
contextually sized, like captions, footers and headings, to be sized by
any appropriate relative sizing method, %  em included.


cool.  I've got used to ems, so will persist.


thanks all.


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[WSG] Legal or Ilegal

2006-11-03 Thread Dennis Lapcewich
Return Receipt
   
   Your   [WSG] Legal or Ilegal
   document:   
   
   wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS   
   received
   by: 
   
   at:11/03/2006 08:32:14  
   






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Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump
immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is when it
jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you press the Tab
key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is turned off.
Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it.

  


Thanks for confirming that Steve,

I've taken all the javascript out because its kinda pointless in this 
instance. Can you check if the same happens on this page please?:


http://robert.o-rourke.org/undex.php

I've removed the anchor link which might have been the reason for it... 
guess it's a process of elimination from here on.



Cheers,
Rob O


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Re: [WSG] IE 7 freezes liquid, jello

2006-11-03 Thread David Hucklesby
On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 14:23:49 +0800, Nick Cowie wrote:
 I would expect my layout to expand beyond the browser window width when
 zoomed (either page zoom in IE or Opera or text zoom in any browser), my
 layout width is em based and uses a little javascript when the page is
 loading to change the text size so it automatically fill the full browser
 window. 

Hi Nick,
My apologies for incorrectly citing your design. As you note, any kind
of width specification besides percent (or no specification at all)
eventually expands beyond the viewport on zoom.

The jello design does, too. But my objection there is to the 
unnecessary horizontal scroll bar when the width is contained. 
Neither Opera nor Firefox do this.

Nick also added:
 If you increase your text size, zoom the page or have a default
 text size greater than 16px  the page will expand beyond your browser
 window.

What led me to conclude that your design somehow works better in
Firefox than in IE 7 is due to my laptop being set to 120 DPI resolution.

In Firefox, your page starts off with margins, because 1em translates
to 16px in that browser. IE 7 however starts off with no margin
because 1em translates to 20px at my screen resolution. Your technique
still works as designed though. Nice!

P.S. I am now seeing other issues with IE 7's zoom feature. Look
at the heading on this page, for example:

http://webwiz.robinshosting.com/jello.html (enable scripting)

Cordially,
David
--



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RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Steve Green
Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but I
never tried it).

If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page continuously
reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender and Web
Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the 'beachball of
death' appears and I have to force quit the browser.

We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke
Sent: 03 November 2006 17:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

Steve Green wrote:
 I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump 
 immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is 
 when it jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you 
 press the Tab key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is
turned off.
 Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it.

   

Thanks for confirming that Steve,

I've taken all the javascript out because its kinda pointless in this
instance. Can you check if the same happens on this page please?:

http://robert.o-rourke.org/undex.php

I've removed the anchor link which might have been the reason for it... 
guess it's a process of elimination from here on.


Cheers,
Rob O


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Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but I
never tried it).

If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page continuously
reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender and Web
Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the 'beachball of
death' appears and I have to force quit the browser.

We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this.

Steve


  


:$

poop... I don't think on online cv that breaks safari is going to get me 
very far...

I've stripped out the CSS now... any joy?

It seems to work ok in swift except it loads up with the high contrast 
large print css for some reason.


Rob O



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Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Nick Fitzsimons

On 3 Nov 2006, at 19:13:00, Rob O'Rourke wrote:


Steve Green wrote:
Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before  
but I

never tried it).

If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page  
continuously
reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender  
and Web
Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the  
'beachball of

death' appears and I have to force quit the browser.

We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this.

Steve





:$

poop... I don't think on online cv that breaks safari is going to  
get me very far...

I've stripped out the CSS now... any joy?

It seems to work ok in swift except it loads up with the high  
contrast large print css for some reason.


Rob O


It's now jumping on load to the bit where you have:

object style=display:none; data=#robert-orourke class=include  
type=text/html/object


just before

h3 class=summary titleWeb Designer and Developer/h3

so it looks like something to do with the object referencing part  
of the page via a URL hash.


As to why you're embedding the page in itself as an object, I really  
can't guess...


HTH,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Steve Green
It seems better but when I hover over a link it still reloads, jumps down to
the Cocktail Bartender subheading then up to the Web Designer subheading. At
least it doesn't bounce up and down continuously and crash the browser.

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke
Sent: 03 November 2006 19:13
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

Steve Green wrote:
 Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but 
 I never tried it).

 If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page 
 continuously reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail 
 Bartender and Web Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till 
 the 'beachball of death' appears and I have to force quit the browser.

 We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this.

 Steve


   

:$

poop... I don't think on online cv that breaks safari is going to get me
very far...
I've stripped out the CSS now... any joy?

It seems to work ok in swift except it loads up with the high contrast large
print css for some reason.

Rob O



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Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke



It's now jumping on load to the bit where you have:

object style=display:none; data=#robert-orourke class=include 
type=text/html/object


just before

h3 class=summary titleWeb Designer and Developer/h3

so it looks like something to do with the object referencing part of 
the page via a URL hash.


As to why you're embedding the page in itself as an object, I really 
can't guess...


HTH,

Nick.
--Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/




=D

Nice one Nick, I think you've cracked it

Those objects are in there to reference my personal hCard from my 
experience ones its one of the microformats design patterns, I was just 
trying to be all fancy-pants clever so I've used hyperlinks instead.


Cheers for the help guys, 'preciate it

Rob O



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[WSG] Off-Topic: Javascript for Dummies

2006-11-03 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

Greetings and sorry for the off topic post.

On this page: http://essay.sitesbyjoe.com/create_account.asp I'm trying 
to set focus on the first field in the form.  It should be simple, but I 
can't get the darn thing to work!


My javascript:

function create_account_focus() {
var my_field = document.getElementById(first_name);
//alert(my_field);
my_field.focus;
}


My HTML:

div
label for=first_nameFirst Name/label
input id=first_name name=first_name type=text 
value=%=request(first_name)% class=stretch /
/div


Any clue as to why this wouldn't be working?  Makes no darn sense!

Thanks!

--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor
n:Taylor;Joseph
org:Sites by Joe, LLC
adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel;work:609-335-3076
tel;cell:609-335-3076
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://sitesbyjoe.com
version:2.1
end:vcard




Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

It seems better but when I hover over a link it still reloads, jumps down to
the Cocktail Bartender subheading then up to the Web Designer subheading. At
least it doesn't bounce up and down continuously and crash the browser.

Steve
 

  
Is that even with the objects removed? If so I'll take out those links 
altogether and get on the uF-discuss list about it.


Cheers,

Rob O


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Re: [WSG] Off-Topic: Javascript for Dummies

2006-11-03 Thread Anders Nawroth


Joseph R. B. Taylor:

my_field.focus;


my_field.focus();

/AndersN


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Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

No, it's ok now. My last post was before you removed the objects.

Steve
 

  


WooHoo! I was all ready to drown my sorrows in lager but this deserves a 
martini =]


Nice one

Rob O


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Re: [WSG] Are we turning the tide?

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Dwain Alford wrote:



Where I am (Ithaca NY), there's very little CSS-based work; they even
teach outdated practices:
http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/11/02/advanced-html/


where i am (winfield, alabama) they still use frames and tables and do 
it wysiwyg.  they know nothing of seo.  a new client can't even use 
the domain name they are paying for because the host who registered 
the name registered it in his name and won't transfer the name to them.


sorry, i stray.  when adobe, macromedia and microsoft gave us go live, 
dreamweaver and front page, they did to web design what george eastman 
did to photography; everybody became a web designer and a photographer.


i haven't been designing with css and xhtml very long (2 years this 
past summer) and there is much i still have to learn, but when i knew 
there was a better way and began to learn about standards i jumped on 
board with both feet.



i try to promote standards whenever i can.  i try to educate our small 
client base to the importance of standards and seo.  i might even 
start a group for web designers in this booming metropolis of around 
4,000 and see if we can get together and make the web a better place.



ok, i'm getting delusional, so i'll stop.  in closing, if one designer 
a day can be brought into the ranks of standards compliant design then 
there is hope.


dwain



The only answer is to keep up the good work, I think web standards must 
be gaining a lot of ground because when I started out learning I was 
almost immediately directed to the CSS zengarden by a friend. After 
trolling through tons of everyone else's code and learning by doing I 
saw the value in it and found the enthusiasm of other standardistas 
infectious.


I'm in the fortunate position of never having learnt any old-hat methods 
and having potential bad habits drummed out of me by peer review on 
mailing lists such as this. Hopefully this will be true for more and 
more new designers and developers in the coming years. The good news is 
that advocates of web standards will more than likely be at the top of 
the search engine results these days. That's usually the first place 
anyone looks for good tutorials/info.


Also, just in this past year I've noticed many websites e.g. The 
University Of Bristol's website have been brought up to speed (only the 
public facing section so far but it's a start). Sites that don't catch 
up will eventually fall behind and drop off the radar (fingers crossed).


Rob O


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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?

2006-11-03 Thread Nathan de Vries
As a new member to this list, I can't believe throwing span  
class=sentence / around EVERY SENTENCE IN YOUR CONTENT is being  
seen as even a remotely valid solution. Is the use of Javascript  
frowned upon on this list? Why not use that?


--
Nathan de Vries


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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?

2006-11-03 Thread Joshua Street

On 11/4/06, Nathan de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

As a new member to this list, I can't believe throwing span
class=sentence / around EVERY SENTENCE IN YOUR CONTENT is being
seen as even a remotely valid solution. Is the use of Javascript
frowned upon on this list? Why not use that?


How is that even remotely _invalid_? The worst I could say against
this is that it was redundant, but it is serving a purpose that cannot
be circumvented, so it is hardly this.

Javascript isn't frowned upon for behavioural purposes -- but this
isn't about behaviour at all. It's about content (perhaps -- and if
you think that then your solution would be . nbsp; replacing . )
or presentation (perhaps -- and if you think that then your solution
would be more tightly defined sentence markup with CSS to append
trailing blank space).

--
Joshua Street

http://joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469


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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?

2006-11-03 Thread Christian Montoya

On 11/3/06, Nathan de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

As a new member to this list, I can't believe throwing span
class=sentence / around EVERY SENTENCE IN YOUR CONTENT is being
seen as even a remotely valid solution. Is the use of Javascript
frowned upon on this list? Why not use that?


Because the solution (yes, solution for a silly problem) has to work
when the document is PRINTED. That means that it has to be either a
plain HTML or print CSS technique.

As for Javascript, the whole point of Javascript solutions is to
fake a technique by adding in the same amount of markup as you would
in the plain HTML case, but simply hiding that markup from
view-source. It's still in the DOM and you can see it with
view-generated-source, so there's no reason why a Javascript
alternative to an HTML/CSS technique is going to be any lighter.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?

2006-11-03 Thread Nathan de Vries

On 04/11/2006, at 1:22 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:

Because the solution (yes, solution for a silly problem) has to work
when the document is PRINTED. That means that it has to be either a
plain HTML or print CSS technique.


When I open up my favorite website in either IE, Opera, Firefox or  
Safari, and modify the content / layout using Javascript...it doesn't  
print the original DOM. It prints the modified DOM. Are you saying  
this doesn't work for you?


--
Nathan de Vries



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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?

2006-11-03 Thread Christian Montoya

On 11/3/06, Nathan de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 04/11/2006, at 1:22 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:
 Because the solution (yes, solution for a silly problem) has to work
 when the document is PRINTED. That means that it has to be either a
 plain HTML or print CSS technique.

When I open up my favorite website in either IE, Opera, Firefox or
Safari, and modify the content / layout using Javascript...it doesn't
print the original DOM. It prints the modified DOM. Are you saying
this doesn't work for you?


Oh, in that case it's fine, but it's not really a big difference. The
point still stands that the Javascript and non-Javascript solutions
produce the same end-result.


--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?

2006-11-03 Thread Nathan de Vries

On 04/11/2006, at 2:13 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:

Oh, in that case it's fine, but it's not really a big difference.


Not a big difference? Unnecessary spans wrapped around every sentence  
in your content seems a _little_ bit different to plain content with  
post-processing done by Javascript. But spans don't show up in your  
browser anyway is a poor justification of a solution which is akin  
old school use whatever works techniques (tables for layout etc.)


The point still stands that the Javascript and non-Javascript  
solutions produce the same end-result.


Was that ever the point? I never stated that using spans + CSS would  
not work - I just said it was a shitty solution. They will both work  
(and look exactly the same), but using extraneous markup to achieve  
double-spacing is insane. The point was which solution is better in  
the long run? I argue that using Javascript is. Every time you change  
your content and need to wrap spans around your sentences, you might  
start thinking the same thing.


--
Nathan de Vries


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