Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Andrew Maben wrote:

On Jan 11, 2007, at 6:47 AM, James Crooke wrote:

We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument 
is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users 
sometimes think "oh the button is dead"
 
So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to a 
finger-pointer on a button.


"We" as designers know (presumably!) that a form button performs a 
different function from a hyperlink - submit/reset a form vs. direct 
browser to a new URL. To a user (who has no need to know, still less 
understand the technicalities of this difference) the result in each 
case is broadly the same: different content is presented in the browser 
window. As the pointer cursor means "click and something will happen", 
it makes sense to have the pointer appear in each case. (The use of form 
elements purely for navigation is another discussion...)


Where the browser's defaults fall short, i think we have at least the 
right, if not a duty, to override them. In this instance I'd be 
astonished if any user whose browser default button cursor is an arrow 
would exclaim, if presented with the pointer instead, "ohmigod! what 
happened? where's my arrow?", whereas the complementary "huh? is this 
button 'dead'?" reaction is fairly predictable.


Andrew


This is exactly my stance. I believe this common sense (now that 
somebody's confirmed it's not the product of insanity!) has a duty to 
override proprietary guidelines.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Andrew Maben]

On Jan 11, 2007, at 6:47 AM, James Crooke wrote:

We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my  
argument is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens,  
users sometimes think "oh the button is dead"


So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to  
a finger-pointer on a button.


"We" as designers know (presumably!) that a form button performs a  
different function from a hyperlink - submit/reset a form vs. direct  
browser to a new URL. To a user (who has no need to know, still less  
understand the technicalities of this difference) the result in each  
case is broadly the same: different content is presented in the  
browser window. As the pointer cursor means "click and something will  
happen", it makes sense to have the pointer appear in each case. (The  
use of form elements purely for navigation is another discussion...)


Where the browser's defaults fall short, i think we have at least the  
right, if not a duty, to override them. In this instance I'd be  
astonished if any user whose browser default button cursor is an  
arrow would exclaim, if presented with the pointer instead, "ohmigod!  
what happened? where's my arrow?", whereas the complementary "huh? is  
this button 'dead'?" reaction is fairly predictable.


Andrew



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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 11 Jan 2007, at 15:36:52, Barney Carroll wrote:


@Nick:

I think it's fair to conclude that we simply disagree!


I agree :-)

Cheers,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

James Crooke wrote:
> P.S  For those that are interested: http://www.kare.com  - it's an
> interesting site!

Brilliant! I miss Windows 3 so much - it's all downhill from there! 
Interesting to see the person behind all this.


Mihael Zadravec wrote:
> I think that the best resolution was: If changed the default style of
> the button, use "pointer", if not changed, and buttons style is
> browsers default button style, than leave it as it is.

A very sober conclusion, and the one I've gone with. Neither this nor 
its opposite are imperative standards in my eyes though.


@Nick:

I think it's fair to conclude that we simply disagree! I still maintain 
my belief that the cursor icon does not associate with the difference 
between link and button in the minds of most. It is also true that 
usability should not be taken lightly, and my decision to change the 
cursor over buttons is based entirely on usability considerations.


"Users spend most of their time on other websites... This means that 
they form their expectations for your site based on what's commonly done 
on most other sites. If you deviate, your site will be harder to use."


While this is a useful mantra to remember, if it is taken as gospel, it 
means that a site less confusing and more usable than existing sites is 
impossible. If I were more cynical, I might say this is blind and 
hopeless promotion of the status quo, whatever it may be, and shuns 
innovation. It's like saying you shouldn't vote for people who aren't 
already in power!


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Please don't take this personally (it so happens it's one of my
bugbears, and I tend to start ranting when it comes up) but one of
the worst problems on the web is graphic designers who think that
their "vision" or "creativity" or whatever overrides the need for
usability. Graphic design for the web (or, indeed, anywhere) must
always be subordinate to usability; great graphic design recognises
this, and actually enhances usability, as well as being aesthetically
pleasing.




Amen to that! :D


Mihael


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 11 Jan 2007, at 14:30:05, Barney Carroll wrote:

Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI  
recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going  
to hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and  
get baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would  
elucidate the functionality of the button.


The point of being consistent is that the user notices nothing. As  
Jakob Nielsen puts it, "Users spend most of their time on other  
websites... This means that they form their expectations for your  
site based on what's commonly done on most other sites. If you  
deviate, your site will be harder to use." [1] The fact that it's a  
button elucidates its functionality. If you need to offer additional  
cues, you need to redesign your button.



The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference.


On the contrary, the cursor is a crucial element of the user  
experience. If it starts behaving in ways other than expected, the  
potential for confusion is there.


I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation  
gone mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires  
insight or creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing  
according to ancient presets without analysis.


Please don't take this personally (it so happens it's one of my  
bugbears, and I tend to start ranting when it comes up) but one of  
the worst problems on the web is graphic designers who think that  
their "vision" or "creativity" or whatever overrides the need for  
usability. Graphic design for the web (or, indeed, anywhere) must  
always be subordinate to usability; great graphic design recognises  
this, and actually enhances usability, as well as being aesthetically  
pleasing.


As for "ancient presets": Apple carried out several years of regular  
user testing in the process of designing the Mac user interface [2].  
They still do this, and the default cursor behaviour is one of the  
things they have found no reason to change. The expression "If it  
ain't broke, don't fix it" is often used inappropriately (as Kent  
Beck's grandmother says, "If it stinks, change it" [3]) but in this  
case I don't believe anything is broken, and you are solving a  
problem that doesn't exist.


Kind regards,

Nick.

[1] 
[2] 
[3] Quoted in the book "Refactoring: Improving the design of existing  
code" by Martin Fowler et al. 

--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

P.S  For those that are interested: http://www.kare.com  - it's an
interesting site!

On 1/11/07, James Crooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Sorry, I thought Microsoft were the first to come up with the different
cursor styles.  I thought that when Susan Kare (designer of the cursors 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kare
) spent time at Microsoft doing graphic design work she came up with the
cursor we all know and love to argue about.

I apologise for not knowing my cursor history.

I'd rather not argue over an opinion - I have statistics to do that for
me.

Cheers guys.


 On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote:
>
> > So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button,
> > (default) arrow
> > cursor or finger-pointer cursor?
> >
> > (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the
> > convention of a
> > default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default
> > attributes to
> > prevent breaking conventions.)
>
> What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in
> the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case
> since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the
> same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human
> Interface Guidelines [1].
>
> When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor
> when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a
> button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely
> causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons
> aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI
> design, which is why they give different feedback.
>
> If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the
> cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then
> leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established
> for a reason.
>
> If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that
> would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be
> fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system.
> There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if
> it hinders it, it becomes a problem.
>
> Regards,
>
> Nick.
>
> [1]  Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGCursors/chapter_15_section_2.html#//
> apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002724-TPXREF101>
>
> [2]  Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_2.html#//
> apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3359-TPXREF186>
>
> --
> Nick Fitzsimons
> http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/
>
>
>
>
>
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>


--
James





--
James


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone

mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires insight or
creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing according to
ancient presets without analysis.



Sometimes it realy looks like some of us are exaggerating and this issue
(cursor style) is like "walking on the edge"... but somehow, it should be
standardized. It is a small issue, but still it is.

I think, there is still alot of space for graphic designers to manoevre
after or before applying standards...

Do user realy care about standards? Most of them don not even know that they
exist. That is way we are here. :D

I think that the best resolution was: If changed the default style of the
button, use "pointer", if not changed, and buttons style is browsers default
button style, than leave it as it is.

Mihael


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

Sorry, I thought Microsoft were the first to come up with the different
cursor styles.  I thought that when Susan Kare (designer of the cursors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kare) spent time at Microsoft doing
graphic design work she came up with the cursor we all know and love to
argue about.

I apologise for not knowing my cursor history.

I'd rather not argue over an opinion - I have statistics to do that for me.

Cheers guys.


On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote:

> So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button,
> (default) arrow
> cursor or finger-pointer cursor?
>
> (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the
> convention of a
> default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default
> attributes to
> prevent breaking conventions.)

What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in
the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case
since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the
same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human
Interface Guidelines [1].

When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor
when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a
button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely
causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons
aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI
design, which is why they give different feedback.

If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the
cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then
leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established
for a reason.

If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that
would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be
fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system.
There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if
it hinders it, it becomes a problem.

Regards,

Nick.

[1] 

[2] 

--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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--
James


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when 
hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button 
(which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes 
navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the 
same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which 
is why they give different feedback.


I am not attempting to discredit these distinctions, which bear a lot of 
relevance; but I strongly doubt the notion that distinctions down to 
this level (some are indeed needed, and nobody here is suggesting that 
buttons be indistinguishable from links) are of vital importance to users.


Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI 
recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going to 
hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and get 
baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would elucidate the 
functionality of the button.


Action as opposed to navigation is an important difference, and I make 
it visible. The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference.


I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone 
mad.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when 
hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button 
(which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes 
navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the 
same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which 
is why they give different feedback.


I am not attempting to discredit these distinctions, which bear a lot of 
relevance; but I strongly doubt the notion that distinctions down to 
this level (some are indeed needed, and nobody here is suggesting that 
buttons be indistinguishable from links) are of vital importance to users.


Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI 
recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going to 
hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and get 
baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would elucidate the 
functionality of the button.


Action as opposed to navigation is an important difference, and I make 
it visible. The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference.


I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone 
mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires insight or 
creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing according to 
ancient presets without analysis.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote:

So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button,  
(default) arrow

cursor or finger-pointer cursor?

(For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the  
convention of a
default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default  
attributes to

prevent breaking conventions.)


What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in  
the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case  
since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the  
same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human  
Interface Guidelines [1].


When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor  
when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a  
button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely  
causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons  
aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI  
design, which is why they give different feedback.


If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the  
cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then  
leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established  
for a reason.


If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that  
would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be  
fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system.  
There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if  
it hinders it, it becomes a problem.


Regards,

Nick.

[1] 


[2] 


--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button, (default) arrow
cursor or finger-pointer cursor?

(For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the convention of a
default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default attributes to
prevent breaking conventions.)


So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change
it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion "oh, on this

site

it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
sites it's dead".


If you have ever conducted a usability test, you will know that users will
also voice their opinions on things that effect all websites (like buttons
not having state changes).  This is where we (as designers) will respond
with "well err, that's the default so we left it like that".

Incidentally, if I flip my Windows XP settings to the XP theme, my default
buttons are highlighted on hover (google search button is best example) -
whereas before (with Windows Standard theme) they are just grey and have no
hover state.  Please bear this in mind when talking about "breaking the
default behaviour".  Note: as soon as you change the background color of a
button, you have broken the XP themed hover state.


Regards

James



On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Patrick Lauke wrote:
>> James Crooke
>
>> We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument
>> is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users
>> sometimes think "oh the button is dead"
>
> A counter argument to that:
>
> So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then
change
> it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion "oh, on this
site
> it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
> sites it's dead".
>
> It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd
argue,
> is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of
> information per se).

This is an interesting philosophy.

I personally believe that Microsoft and the awful IT education in this
country (UK) have created a terrible culture of people who are so
steeped in the logic of  Microsoft's very worst user interfaces, that
they perceive and value objects akin to these systems ahead of innately
intuitive interaction processes.

A massive amount of common culture must be used on any document for it
to be legible, and in the domain of websites there is also a lot of
convention to follow. However an integral part of my job is producing
'outside-of-the-box' solutions that don't depend on a user's knowledge
of computer systems convention, and instead rely on innate human
psychology. This sounds pretentious but good designers do this (or at
least they try) all the time. Another aspect includes 'branding' sites.
There are those weirdos who want their site to look exactly like a
Windows desktop, but most people want a look and feel and way of doing
things that is unique to them and their site, which can then be
incorporated into their corporate identity.

By the way, I'm not a corporate identity or particularly commercial
designer, most of my projects are for government and non-profit
organisations.

Regards,
Barney


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--
James


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Patrick Lauke wrote:

James Crooke



We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument
is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users
sometimes think "oh the button is dead"


A counter argument to that:

So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change
it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion "oh, on this site
it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
sites it's dead".

It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd argue,
is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of
information per se).


This is an interesting philosophy.

I personally believe that Microsoft and the awful IT education in this 
country (UK) have created a terrible culture of people who are so 
steeped in the logic of  Microsoft's very worst user interfaces, that 
they perceive and value objects akin to these systems ahead of innately 
intuitive interaction processes.


A massive amount of common culture must be used on any document for it 
to be legible, and in the domain of websites there is also a lot of 
convention to follow. However an integral part of my job is producing 
'outside-of-the-box' solutions that don't depend on a user's knowledge 
of computer systems convention, and instead rely on innate human 
psychology. This sounds pretentious but good designers do this (or at 
least they try) all the time. Another aspect includes 'branding' sites. 
There are those weirdos who want their site to look exactly like a 
Windows desktop, but most people want a look and feel and way of doing 
things that is unique to them and their site, which can then be 
incorporated into their corporate identity.


By the way, I'm not a corporate identity or particularly commercial 
designer, most of my projects are for government and non-profit 
organisations.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Mihael Zadravec wrote:
I think it's good to leave the cursor behavior as it is by browsers 
default, when using the visual style for button that is also browsers 
default ( if we are talking about input type="button" or "submit"), but 
if designer created his own style and it is not so clear that it is a 
"system button" then it would be good to change it's cursor properti to 
"pointer"...


Mihael


I agree completely.

Regards,
Barney


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RE: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Patrick Lauke]

> James Crooke

> We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument
> is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users
> sometimes think "oh the button is dead"

A counter argument to that:

So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change
it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion "oh, on this site
it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
sites it's dead".

It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd argue,
is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of
information per se).

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/



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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

I think it's good to leave the cursor behavior as it is by browsers default,
when using the visual style for button that is also browsers default ( if we
are talking about input type="button" or "submit"), but if designer created
his own style and it is not so clear that it is a "system button" then it
would be good to change it's cursor properti to "pointer"...

Mihael



On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different
> action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they
> should have the same curser does not seem valid to me.

You can't deny their similarity though. Seriously - are there any
elements more similar to either?

A visual distinction is often needed between buttons and anchors
(although based on context you could argue against), but as long as
they're not identical, I can see why you'd want to emphasise their
shared aspects with common semantic styling; hence the hand icon, which
traditionally denotes objects you can click on.

Regards,
Barney


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--
Računalniške storitve Toasted Web
Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
tel: 00386 51 808136
email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec
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Toasted Web
http://www.toastedweb.com

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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different 
action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they 
should have the same curser does not seem valid to me.


You can't deny their similarity though. Seriously - are there any 
elements more similar to either?


A visual distinction is often needed between buttons and anchors 
(although based on context you could argue against), but as long as 
they're not identical, I can see why you'd want to emphasise their 
shared aspects with common semantic styling; hence the hand icon, which 
traditionally denotes objects you can click on.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

Silly point.  I'm pretty sure Krug would have designed his cover :S

We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument is
that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users sometimes think
"oh the button is dead"

So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to a
finger-pointer on a button.


On 1/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 First things first - what makes you think that Steve Krug designed the
cover of that book? My father has authored several books, and I can tell you
that he has a fairly low regard for the designers that produce his covers,
and routinely place items upside down etc.

To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different action
to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they should have the
same curser does not seem valid to me.

Mike

 --
*From:* listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *James Crooke
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:26 PM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links


 Here's one for you.

OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the default
cursor.

But even Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" has a pointer (the finger cursor)
hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and
Firefox buttons have the cursor.

Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as
hyperlinks.  I always apply "cursor:pointer" to my buttons - partly because
my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it seems) that it
helps usability.

Who disagrees?


On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Patrick H. Lauke skrev:
> > Quoting Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
> >
> >> There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the
> >> vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.
> >
> > Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to
>
> > adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking
> > default functionality in browsers to "aid" these users is not a
> > sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're
> > creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on
> the
> > browser's default behaviour.
>
> OK, I have now changed the "text marker" cursor on my own system, much
> easier to see it now :-)
>
> /anders
>
>
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James


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RE: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[michael.brockington]

First things first - what makes you think that Steve Krug designed the
cover of that book? My father has authored several books, and I can tell
you that he has a fairly low regard for the designers that produce his
covers, and routinely place items upside down etc.
 
To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different
action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they
should have the same curser does not seem valid to me.
 
Mike




From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Crooke
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but
links


Here's one for you.
 
OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change
the default cursor.
 
But even Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" has a pointer (the finger
cursor) hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in
IE and Firefox buttons have the cursor.
 
Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the
same as hyperlinks.  I always apply "cursor:pointer" to my buttons -
partly because my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and
Krug, it seems) that it helps usability. 
 
Who disagrees?

 
On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 



Patrick H. Lauke skrev:
> Quoting Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >:
>
>> There are people who have problems to spot the cursor
when it's the
>> vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the
arrow.
>
> Some people have very specific problems, but will have
to learn how to 
> adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with
them. Breaking
> default functionality in browsers to "aid" these users
is not a
> sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these
people, you're 
> creating problems for an other section of users who
actually rely on the
> browser's default behaviour.

OK, I have now changed the "text marker" cursor on my
own system, much
easier to see it now :-) 

/anders



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James 

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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

James Crooke wrote:

Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as 
hyperlinks.


"Personally" being the key here, again. Overriding browser default 
behaviour and UI cues is not a sustainable model, just because *you* 
think you know better, in most cases.



Who disagrees?


Browser manufacturers, quite obviously.


Woah!

Was it somebody on this list who suggested that recommending Firefox on 
your personal homepage was akin to Nazism?


All CSS is over-riding browser behaviour. Sometimes this runs contrary 
to what is best for the user, but that's entirely what a good designer's 
judgment is about - and what I thought this list was for.


Making all text blue and underlined would be bad judgment in over-riding 
browser pre-sets. Making the mouse cursor turn into a pointer over 
buttons is very intuitive and I don't think it'll ruin anybody's browser 
experience.


Too much trust in browser developers is never a good thing. At the very 
least they should be able to look to the design community for usability 
experience. If we're just nodding, everything spirals into inanity.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

James Crooke wrote:

Here's one for you.
 
OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the 
default cursor.
 
But even Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" has a pointer (the finger cursor) 
hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and 
Firefox buttons have the cursor.
 
Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as 
hyperlinks.  I always apply "cursor:pointer" to my buttons - partly 
because my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it 
seems) that it helps usability.
 
Who disagrees?


I have resigned myself to this. I decided last night that I couldn't 
justify the amount of time I spent specifically on IE6 for each project 
- my design process involves designing the best-case site, building it, 
and then making it work in IE6+7, which involves a lot of work that I am 
now not so sure is valid use of time.


What I'm getting at is that I'm ditching my .htc and .js ideas for 
hovering buttons and falling back on this [cursor:pointer] technique, 
which is actually more than enough to denote interactivity - and has 
indicated this since time immemorial.


Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Patrick H. Lauke]

James Crooke wrote:

Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as 
hyperlinks.


"Personally" being the key here, again. Overriding browser default 
behaviour and UI cues is not a sustainable model, just because *you* 
think you know better, in most cases.



Who disagrees?


Browser manufacturers, quite obviously.

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[James Crooke]

Here's one for you.

OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the default
cursor.

But even Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" has a pointer (the finger cursor)
hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and
Firefox buttons have the cursor.

Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as
hyperlinks.  I always apply "cursor:pointer" to my buttons - partly because
my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it seems) that it
helps usability.

Who disagrees?


On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Patrick H. Lauke skrev:
> Quoting Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the
>> vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.
>
> Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to
> adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking
> default functionality in browsers to "aid" these users is not a
> sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're
> creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on the
> browser's default behaviour.

OK, I have now changed the "text marker" cursor on my own system, much
easier to see it now :-)

/anders


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--
James


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Anders Nawroth]

Patrick H. Lauke skrev:

Quoting Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the
vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.


Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to 
adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking 
default functionality in browsers to "aid" these users is not a 
sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're 
creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on the 
browser's default behaviour.


OK, I have now changed the "text marker" cursor on my own system, much 
easier to see it now :-)


/anders


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Andrew Maben]

Strange: my Safari 2.0.4 (419.3) turns the cursor into an insertion  
bar over text. Did you see this on more than one site?


Stranger still - I was actually looking at an unrefreshed page  
(Macintouch) that had been open overnight while the machine slept.   
After refreshing the page, cursor behavior is back to normal...


Andrew Maben

109b SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Ph: 352-384-9127
Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."






On Jan 10, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Nick Fitzsimons wrote:





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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 10 Jan 2007, at 15:09:12, Andrew Maben wrote:

When I read the first couple of messages in this thread, I had a  
look at my two browsers - IE6/PC and Safari/Mac.


It was interesting to see that IE displays what I believe is the  
correct behavior (the cursor becomes insertion bar over text),  
while in Safari it remains an arrow - or does it? I noticed a  
flicker, and moving the cursor very slowly from a blank area to  
text it does, for an instant, become an insertion bar before  
returning to the arrow. Somewhat bizarre and not in keeping with  
the vaunted Macintosh easy to use UI?




Strange: my Safari 2.0.4 (419.3) turns the cursor into an insertion  
bar over text. Did you see this on more than one site?


More generally, I'd think that the different cursors displayed are  
an OPERATING SYSTEM rather than APPLICATION UI issue, and as such  
should be left alone - after all, if the insertion bar is hard to  
see in IE then it's equally hard to see in MS Word, and the user  
should be left to decide for herself whether to make a system-wide  
change of cursor types. Surely taking decisions of this kind out of  
the user's hands in the browser environment runs counter to the  
spirit of usability?




Absolutely agree with you. We shouldn't be trying to override system- 
wide preferences in the control of the user because of our own  
personal preference. After all, OS manufacturers have done enormous  
amounts of research into usability; it's unlikely that one solitary  
web developer is going to discover something they've been doing wrong  
all these years. (And the good people at Opera would do well to take  
this on board, too.)


Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Andrew Maben]

When I read the first couple of messages in this thread, I had a look  
at my two browsers - IE6/PC and Safari/Mac.


It was interesting to see that IE displays what I believe is the  
correct behavior (the cursor becomes insertion bar over text), while  
in Safari it remains an arrow - or does it? I noticed a flicker, and  
moving the cursor very slowly from a blank area to text it does, for  
an instant, become an insertion bar before returning to the arrow.  
Somewhat bizarre and not in keeping with the vaunted Macintosh easy  
to use UI?


More generally, I'd think that the different cursors displayed are an  
OPERATING SYSTEM rather than APPLICATION UI issue, and as such should  
be left alone - after all, if the insertion bar is hard to see in IE  
then it's equally hard to see in MS Word, and the user should be left  
to decide for herself whether to make a system-wide change of cursor  
types. Surely taking decisions of this kind out of the user's hands  
in the browser environment runs counter to the spirit of usability?


Andrew Maben

109b SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Ph: 352-384-9127
Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."






On Jan 10, 2007, at 9:31 AM, Mihael Zadravec wrote:


On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Mihael Zadravec skrev:
> that is rigt. I will stop doing that... But than again... Opera  
displays

> arrow even when cursor is positiond over the text...


There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the
vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.

/anders


That is actualy something I agree with... It's true that even I  
have problems with spoting the cursor sometimes...

I belive that could be a good reason for using an arrow as a cursor...


Mihael



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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Barney Carroll]

On a personal note, universal custom cursors are my most hated thing in 
websites. They irritate me even more than pron pop-ups, and generally 
scream out 'features for the sake of features', rarely coming from any 
desire to make things easier or more elegant for the user.


...So if I'm your target audience, steer clear!

Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Quoting Mihael Zadravec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


that is rigt. I will stop doing that... But than again... Opera displays
arrow even when cursor is positiond over the text...


So then people who find the default behaviour in other browsers  
annoying should consider switching to Opera.



Do you people think that they should change that because users maybe don't
know if they can grab the text or not?


Long time Opera users wouldn't know any different, but certainly users  
switching from some other browser to Opera may be confused by this.  
Either way, it's up to Opera to implement what they think is best for  
their audience. Although not a deal breaker, this is one of those  
little things that make me slightly dislike Opera's browser, personally.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Mihael Zadravec wrote:
that is rigt. I will stop doing that... But than again... Opera 
displays arrow even when cursor is positiond over the text...


Do you people think that they should change that because users maybe 
don't know if they can grab the text or not?


Might be confusing for a few minutes for an entirely new Opera user -
one that's switching from another browser.
Regular Opera users (like myself) don't become confused by that arrow,
since that's 'the norm' in Opera. We know we can select and grab what we
want.

It's mostly web designers and (would be) geeks that compare these things
across browser-land, and their/our views on "what's best" shouldn't
count all that much since they/we are not typical users.

Might be more confusing - for a little while at least, for any user with
any browser, if a site imposes a change from 'the normal' cursor(s)
across browser-land though.

So, better leave it to each browser to control its basic cursor(s), and
let those behind each browser decide if/when they want to make changes.
You can of course tell them what you think about the issue. I for one am
happy with it as it is now.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Quoting Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the
vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.


Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to  
adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking  
default functionality in browsers to "aid" these users is not a  
sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're  
creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on  
the browser's default behaviour.


In short: it's not your role as web content developer to impose  
certain things like these on all your visitors to "fix" browsers.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
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http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[David Dorward]

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 03:15:00PM +0100, Anders Nawroth wrote:

> There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the 
> vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.

That would be a reason for those people to change their cursor theme
(to, for example, Windows Inverted (extra large)). An author changing
the cusor to one which means "This text is not selectable" when the
text is selectable is a very bad move.

-- 
David Dorward  http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Mihael Zadravec skrev:
> that is rigt. I will stop doing that... But than again... Opera displays
> arrow even when cursor is positiond over the text...


There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the
vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.

/anders




That is actualy something I agree with... It's true that even I have
problems with spoting the cursor sometimes...
I belive that could be a good reason for using an arrow as a cursor...


Mihael


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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Anders Nawroth]

Mihael Zadravec skrev:
that is rigt. I will stop doing that... But than again... Opera displays 
arrow even when cursor is positiond over the text...



There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the 
vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.


/anders




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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

that is rigt. I will stop doing that... But than again... Opera displays
arrow even when cursor is positiond over the text...
Do you people think that they should change that because users maybe don't
know if they can grab the text or not?


On 1/10/07, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Quoting Mihael Zadravec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I use it because it's annoying if while moving cursor around the site,
it
> constantly changes.
> So it seems nicer if it does not change, but still able to grab a
certain
> text...

Annoying to you, perhaps, but vital for other users. It's generally a
bad idea to override such UI defaults.

P
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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Quoting Mihael Zadravec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


I use it because it's annoying if while moving cursor around the site, it
constantly changes.
So it seems nicer if it does not change, but still able to grab a certain
text...


Annoying to you, perhaps, but vital for other users. It's generally a  
bad idea to override such UI defaults.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[redux]

Quoting Matthew Pennell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


What would be the point if it is the default anyway?


It basically forces the normal "arrow" type pointer, so even if you're  
over text the cursor doesn't change to the vertical bar type thing.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[redux]

Quoting Mihael Zadravec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


If one uses "cursor:default;" as a default property for body {}, on the
whole page (links are "cursor:pointer;")...
Do you find that souch method is not good or it actualy does have any
relevancy?


Leave it up to the browser to decide what the cursor should look like.  
I see no point in doing this at all. In fact, it's downright annoying  
if I want to do copy/paste and you're overriding my browser's  
behaviour of showing me the default caret/insert bar.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

If it is not set as "default" than over the text cursor looks like this: I
but if set as "defautlt" when you go with it over the text, it stay like:
arrow



On 1/10/07, Matthew Pennell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 1/10/07, Mihael Zadravec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If one uses "cursor:default;" as a default property for body {}, on the
> whole page (links are "cursor:pointer;")...
> Do you find that souch method is not good or it actualy does have any
> relevancy?


What would be the point if it is the default anyway?



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Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
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email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec
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Re: [WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Matthew Pennell]

On 1/10/07, Mihael Zadravec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


If one uses "cursor:default;" as a default property for body {}, on the
whole page (links are "cursor:pointer;")...
Do you find that souch method is not good or it actualy does have any
relevancy?



What would be the point if it is the default anyway?


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[WSG] Using "cursor:default;" on the whole page but links

[Mihael Zadravec]

Hello list!

I have a question for you... :)

If one uses "cursor:default;" as a default property for body {}, on the
whole page (links are "cursor:pointer;")...
Do you find that souch method is not good or it actualy does have any
relevancy?

I use it on a daily basis...Should I change that?

thank you!
Mihael


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