[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Göran rightly reminds me that I include the Norwegian Hardingfele as well. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: G. C. Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Datum: 05.04.2020, 3:07 Uhr An: Mathias Rösel And please remember to also include the Norwegian Hardingfele. -- References 1. https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Göran and I agreed to share this with the list. Mathias Göran wrote: Yes, but you were envisioning some impossible contraption with the metal strings on the inside of the lute if I understood you correctly. A lute with sympathetic strings seems more plausible, although their tension could constitute a problem for the relatively delicate lute top. But they also experimented with a buzzing sound in a different way, as recently discussed on this forum. Very irritating to my ears! Göran On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 12:01 PM Mathias Rösel <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> replied: I cannot say how impossible sympathetic metal strings on the inside of a lute really are. I simply don't know the experiment that Mersenne apparently was referring to. I imagine, though, that the tension of those metal strings may be rather low. Enhancement of sound and harmony by resonance strings seems to have been an 17^th century idea that took several shapes. For lute instruments, one is the angélique, another may be the torban. For bowed instruments, the viola d'amore, the baryton and the nyckelharpa can be named. Mathias -- References 1. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
There is a viola d'amore with sympathetic strings that run from the tail piece, below the bridge, below the fingerboard, and up to the peg box that has an appropriate number of additional pegs. There's also a baryton (a bit smaller than a cello) with several harp strings that run from the tailpiece to a large peg box. They're plucked with the thumb of the left hand. Finally, there's the Hardanger fiddle with sympathetic strings mounted in a manner similar to those of the viola d'amore. Steve On Thursday, March 26, 2020, 02:25:34 PM EDT, Nancy Carlin wrote: Isn't there a viola da gamba type instrument that in arranged similarly? Nancy > Not at all sure myself, and I don't know chapter and verse with Mersenne, as Bailes didn't quote them. In my imagination, though, it's a double soundboard with metal strings for the inside and gut strings for the outside (I have no idea how they would keep the inside metal strings in tune). The metal strings probably were intended to resonate with the outside gut strings. Bailes quoted it in a row of examples of contemporaneous French experiments with sound. > > Mathias > > > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von G. C. > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 23:36 > An: Lutelist > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top > >How in the world would such a lute look like? And how would you be able >to tune the second set? Maybe he meant something like the Mace double >lute? (Dipharion?) > >On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:05 PM Mathias RÃÃà ¶sel ><[1][3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > > Anthony Bailes mentioned Marin Mersenne, Harmonie Universelle > (1636), who speaks about the possibility of building a lute with two > soundboards with strings on both of them, gut strings on one, metal > strings on the other (that's about resonance, I suppose). (Lute News > 85, April 2008) > Mathias > -UrsprÃÃà ¼ngliche Nachricht- > Von: [2][4]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[3][5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von > David Smith > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. MÃÃà ¤rz 2020 20:16 > An: Joachim LÃÃà ¼dtke; [4][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top > I have heard both sandwiched and double top used. The term double > top is more common in the states. > David > -Original Message- > From: [5][7]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[6][8]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Joachim > LÃÃà ¼dtke > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:56 AM > To: [7][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top > Dear David, dear list, > I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but > only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a > second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is > usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too > limited or do I use it too strictly? > A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there > were guitar days here in the Hochschule fÃÃà ¼r Kunst und Musik in > Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently > finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule > playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and > I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the > majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices à ¢à ¦ > Best from the Hanseatics > Joachim > -Original-Nachricht- > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top > Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100 > Von: "David Smith" <[8][10]d...@dolcesfogato.com> > An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[9][11]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>, > "[10][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[11][13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - > 10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really > not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used > for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching > bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dam
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
You mean the Baryton? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryton There's nice music for it by Haydn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQmeHq67k68 On 26.03.20 19:17, Nancy Carlin wrote: Isn't there a viola da gamba type instrument that in arranged similarly? Nancy Not at all sure myself, and I don't know chapter and verse with Mersenne, as Bailes didn't quote them. In my imagination, though, it's a double soundboard with metal strings for the inside and gut strings for the outside (I have no idea how they would keep the inside metal strings in tune). The metal strings probably were intended to resonate with the outside gut strings. Bailes quoted it in a row of examples of contemporaneous French experiments with sound. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von G. C. Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 23:36 An: Lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top How in the world would such a lute look like? And how would you be able to tune the second set? Maybe he meant something like the Mace double lute? (Dipharion?) On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:05 PM Mathias Rösel <[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: Anthony Bailes mentioned Marin Mersenne, Harmonie Universelle (1636), who speaks about the possibility of building a lute with two soundboards with strings on both of them, gut strings on one, metal strings on the other (that's about resonance, I suppose). (Lute News 85, April 2008) Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Smith Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 20:16 An: Joachim Lüdtke; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top I have heard both sandwiched and double top used. The term double top is more common in the states. David -Original Message- From: [5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Joachim Lüdtke Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:56 AM To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Dear David, dear list, I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do I use it too strictly? A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there were guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices ⦠Best from the Hanseatics Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100 Von: "David Smith" <[8]d...@dolcesfogato.com> An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[9]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>, "[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - 10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around 3-4k. As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system - [12]https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_ bracing.html) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely. Anyway, some random thoughts. David -Original Message- From: [13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[14]lute-...@new-ol
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Isn't there a viola da gamba type instrument that in arranged similarly?
Nancy
Not at all sure myself, and I don't know chapter and verse with Mersenne, as
Bailes didn't quote them. In my imagination, though, it's a double soundboard
with metal strings for the inside and gut strings for the outside (I have no
idea how they would keep the inside metal strings in tune). The metal strings
probably were intended to resonate with the outside gut strings. Bailes quoted
it in a row of examples of contemporaneous French experiments with sound.
Mathias
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von G. C.
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 23:36
An: Lutelist
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
How in the world would such a lute look like? And how would you be able
to tune the second set? Maybe he meant something like the Mace double
lute? (Dipharion?)
On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:05 PM Mathias Rösel
<[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
Anthony Bailes mentioned Marin Mersenne, Harmonie Universelle
(1636), who speaks about the possibility of building a lute with two
soundboards with strings on both of them, gut strings on one, metal
strings on the other (that's about resonance, I suppose). (Lute News
85, April 2008)
Mathias
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von
David Smith
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 20:16
An: Joachim Lüdtke; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
I have heard both sandwiched and double top used. The term double
top is more common in the states.
David
-Original Message-
From: [5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Joachim
Lüdtke
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:56 AM
To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
Dear David, dear list,
I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but
only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a
second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is
usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too
limited or do I use it too strictly?
A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there
were guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in
Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently
finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule
playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and
I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the
majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices â¦
Best from the Hanseatics
Joachim
-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100
Von: "David Smith" <[8]d...@dolcesfogato.com>
An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[9]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>,
"[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars -
10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really
not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used
for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching
bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann
price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top.
You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around
3-4k.
As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because
it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound
of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho.
But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone
then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double
top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is
overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system -
[12]https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_
bracing.html) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound
throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I
use it on a lute. Not likely.
Anyway, some random thoughts.
David
-Original Message-
From: [13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Tristan
von Neumann
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM
To: [15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject:
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Not at all sure myself, and I don't know chapter and verse with Mersenne, as
Bailes didn't quote them. In my imagination, though, it's a double soundboard
with metal strings for the inside and gut strings for the outside (I have no
idea how they would keep the inside metal strings in tune). The metal strings
probably were intended to resonate with the outside gut strings. Bailes quoted
it in a row of examples of contemporaneous French experiments with sound.
Mathias
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von G. C.
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 23:36
An: Lutelist
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
How in the world would such a lute look like? And how would you be able
to tune the second set? Maybe he meant something like the Mace double
lute? (Dipharion?)
On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:05 PM Mathias Rösel
<[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
Anthony Bailes mentioned Marin Mersenne, Harmonie Universelle
(1636), who speaks about the possibility of building a lute with two
soundboards with strings on both of them, gut strings on one, metal
strings on the other (that's about resonance, I suppose). (Lute News
85, April 2008)
Mathias
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von
David Smith
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 20:16
An: Joachim Lüdtke; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
I have heard both sandwiched and double top used. The term double
top is more common in the states.
David
-Original Message-
From: [5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Joachim
Lüdtke
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:56 AM
To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
Dear David, dear list,
I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but
only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a
second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is
usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too
limited or do I use it too strictly?
A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there
were guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in
Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently
finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule
playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and
I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the
majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices â¦
Best from the Hanseatics
Joachim
-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100
Von: "David Smith" <[8]d...@dolcesfogato.com>
An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[9]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>,
"[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars -
10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really
not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used
for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching
bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann
price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top.
You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around
3-4k.
As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because
it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound
of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho.
But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone
then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double
top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is
overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system -
[12]https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_
bracing.html) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound
throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I
use it on a lute. Not likely.
Anyway, some random thoughts.
David
-Original Message-
From: [13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Tristan
von Neumann
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM
To: [15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort...
I don't see any advantage...
On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
> I read ab
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Some years ago St Petersburg luthier Mikhail Fedchenko experimented with double top lute. He built renaissance lute for Arkadi Burkhanov, lutenist from Novosibirsk and music director of 'Insula Magica' ensemble. I had some experience with this lute and I'm not happy at all. Yes, it's noticably louder than normal lute, but it's the first and last advantage. The resonances moved to a low part and the lute sounded very close to guitar, the sustaine was longer, but a bit strange way, so in lute music it produced much more harmonic roughness than beauty, and more problem with stopping string. And the nature of sound has changed, especially audible in polyphonic pieces - instead of horizontal lines we heard more verticals. I don't know how to explain, but it allows less polyphony, everything drives to vertical harmony and sounds like chord progression instead of simultaneous melodic lines. If I needed to open up polyphony it tooks much more efforts. It wasn't a lute anymore, it was different instrument built for different music. But it's only my opinion based on only one experience. ÃÃ, 25 üðÃ. 2020 ó., 0:32 John Mardinly <[1]john.mardi...@asu.edu>: Last summer, I purchased a âdouble top' guitar. The sound this instrument produces is astounding. It looks like a normal guitar, but the top consists of two layers of wood a half millimeter thick with a latticework of thin balsa wood strips in between for reinforcement. The result is a slab suitable for an instrument top that is much less dense than any solid wood and thus vibrates more easily yet still has sufficient strength to withstand the stress of the strings on the bridge. Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers interested in trying? A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist On Mar 23, 2020, at 10:20 PM, David van Ooijen <[1][2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote: This is what I made a while ago with my guitar (and one lute!) pupil. [1][2][3]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu. be_- 5Frd4ybtec4Y=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ& r=V LPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=Q7_nqWFrXqIFDsOhjWGSrNT 1E4 Gm0tnLie2Pb6saiaA=NXpYB9panSORS1wHZF56I315HDkmC4kfG1KQStwHa4I= David On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 00:41, Alain Veylit <[2][3][4]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: A somewhat more elaborate take on the same idea - also using a master tape, but took about a year to record in "real time": [3][4][5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.yo ut ube.com_watch-3Fv-3Dph1GU1qQ1zQ=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1 Gyc N4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=Q7_n qWF rXqIFDsOhjWGSrNT1E4Gm0tnLie2Pb6saiaA=vDtH7embWEqv73Vdex3YtDsNtZf9n AWp WvtkI2WjAQg= Luthistes de tous les pays unissez-vous! On 3/23/20 3:30 PM, howard posner wrote: On Mar 23, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Diego Cantalupi <[4][5][6]tio...@gmail.com> wrote: Each one with his/her phone. Il 23/03/2020 16:11, Dr. Henner Kahlert ha scritto: Wonderful! With which device did you manage to play and record this? Could you share how you did it? Two days ago I tried to lead our small congregation in a virtual service using Zoom, and it was impossible to synchronize it. Even if our mouths were moving in unison, it was cacophony. To get on or off this list see list information at [5][6][7]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs. dar tmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQ usp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZON BRt90E=Q7_nqWFrXqIFDsOhjWGSrNT1E4Gm0tnLie2Pb6saiaA=KB0q6iBbV2bYP 8RQzSThRnFRaBVeGR-3KDzDBcsyMrw= -- *** David van Ooijen [6][7][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [7][8][9]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__davidv anoo [10]ijen.wordpress.com=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jI nuKy6zb qQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=Q7_nqWFrXqIFDsOhj WGS rNT1E4Gm0tnLie2Pb6saiaA& e= *** -- References 1. [9][11]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be _-5Frd4 ybtec4Y=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLP J8O E-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=Q7_nqWFrXqIFDsOhjWGSrNT1E4Gm 0tn
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
John wrote: > >Interesting article, but I would take issue with many of his points, as >did many of the 58 people that responded to the blog. > I totally agree with you, his reaction is extreme. As someone who makes electric instruments, I have no issue with loudness, none at all. And I think this technique might have an excellent application in the context of acoustic bass guitars, which are hard to make loud enough. As for lutes: they lost to guitars, back in the day, due to changing aesthetics and a move to larger venues. They tried to adapt (the theorbo) but, despite all their advantages in sound quality, they were just too soft (or too cumbersome). The guitar, especially after Torres, won, and the apotheosis of the lute remains in the first half of the 17th century. There is this funny thing many folk, guitarist and lutenist alike, have about loud. They want it, they need it, and they don't want to amplify for some reason. A can of worms but, in my opinion, you can get a better sound from subtle and accurate micing than you can from a stiffer soundboard. It doesn't have an aesthetic purity though, and that will be a catch for many. However, for me, technology is technology whether you bury in a very thin laminate or in a microphone. On the flipside, a beautiful instrument made by a master builder is a thing of beauty. I am envious of both your old Velazquez and your new Cooper, but I will have to make do with my own (unfinished) Staufferish thingy, and my Travis Carey 13c swan-neck... All the best .. m. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
That is a serious concern. Repairability of the top is something that is probably very limited, although the rest of the construction and bracing is fairly conventional. My luthier gave me a 10 year written warranty, although with me being nearly 71 and corona virus all around, the big question is will I have sufficient longevity. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist On Mar 25, 2020, at 5:43 PM, [1]theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: My concern with a double top is longevity: How will that top hold up 50, 100, 150 years from now? Any structure built up from layers glued together, and subject to vibration, will presumably come apart, eventually. What will look like in a double top? Loose Braces, detached bridges are usually relatively easy to repair on a solid top guitar, but will structural failure on a double top destroy the instrument? How do these epoxies hold up over time? Do they become more brittle? Maybe I've had too many instruments in need of significant repair, but I am concerned about how these double tops will fare with decades of use. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n 1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=-yO hA50WK65NW3xBMgXuMiHTVsdYObz1K0em5_69r9E=-o3eIq8lcHOWVWfPilfhFX-n7q4z ucgiu3hUG00o7lk= -- References 1. mailto:theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 2. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=-yOhA50WK65NW3xBMgXuMiHTVsdYObz1K0em5_69r9E=-o3eIq8lcHOWVWfPilfhFX-n7q4zucgiu3hUG00o7lk=
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
My concern with a double top is longevity: How will that top hold up 50, 100, 150 years from now? Any structure built up from layers glued together, and subject to vibration, will presumably come apart, eventually. What will look like in a double top? Loose Braces, detached bridges are usually relatively easy to repair on a solid top guitar, but will structural failure on a double top destroy the instrument? How do these epoxies hold up over time? Do they become more brittle? Maybe I've had too many instruments in need of significant repair, but I am concerned about how these double tops will fare with decades of use. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
If I could have gotten a Matthias Damman for 15,000 euros, I would get two. From what I have seen, they go for something like $35,000 US, and there is a 10 year wait list for a new one. I bought a Jeremy Cooper ([1]http://cooperguitars.com/index.html) had only a 1.5 year wait and paid just a third of what a Damman or Smallman would cost, plus I got a magnificent instrument. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort... I don't see any advantage... On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote: I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann cost 15 000 ⬠a pop. Jürgne âââââââ Original Message âââââââ On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert <[3]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: John wrote: Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers interested in trying? Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, workin with nomex or similar, etc.). The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a lute sound the way it does. Consider the following article for more [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.guitarsa lon.com_blog_-3Fp-3D1467=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2 jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=_swV1K8n UohakUi8vzvNcQte1kr4tZz5zh2_HI-c7Mw=v3Jq1lfqaKmC9hX0EaIJ08uxUtpBQP gdMK6pChrGkhw= Kind regards .. mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmo uth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp 9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt 90E=_swV1K8nUohakUi8vzvNcQte1kr4tZz5zh2_HI-c7Mw=6to1Dj_ncz0pc4AW VMIlgOEPfXaZVa42NRsUgu7S09s= References 1. http://cooperguitars.com/index.html 2. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 3. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 4. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.guitarsalon.com_blog_-3Fp-3D1467=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=_swV1K8nUohakUi8vzvNcQte1kr4tZz5zh2_HI-c7Mw=v3Jq1lfqaKmC9hX0EaIJ08uxUtpBQPgdMK6pChrGkhw= 5. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=_swV1K8nUohakUi8vzvNcQte1kr4tZz5zh2_HI-c7Mw=6to1Dj_ncz0pc4AWVMIlgOEPfXaZVa42NRsUgu7S09s=
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
The first time I heard Jason Vieaux on a Gernot Wagner, was in a
church. I had never heard of Gernot Wagner at the time, and did not
know any of the details of the construction. I thought the incredible
sound, response and sustain was because of the church. I was wrong. It
was the guitar.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
Classical Guitarist/Lutenist
On Mar 25, 2020, at 5:00 PM, Edward Martin <[1]edvihuel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Two years ago, classic guitar virtuoso Jason Vieaux visited my city and
had an incredible concert and master class. Jason is a Grammy winning
artist. His guitar had a double top, and it was perhaps the loudest
guitar I have ever heard. I played a small passage on it (he offered)
and it is incredible, robust, a great instrument.
I wonder if such aesthetics would emote the truly sweet, beautiful
sound of our concept of how a good lite should sound.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2020, at 6:21 PM, John Mardinly
<[2]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
 I have heard the terminology âcomposite top' and 'sandwich top'
in
addition to âdouble top', and they all refer to similar
construction,
although the earliest âdouble top' guitars used a layer of a
hexagonal
synthetic material called Nomex in between the two paper thin
layers on
wood.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
Classical Guitarist/Lutenist
On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Joachim Lüdtke
<[1][3]jo.lued...@t-online.de>
wrote:
Dear David, dear list,
I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top,
but
only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a
second,
'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually
called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do
I
use it too strictly?
A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there
were
guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen,
and
there were young builders showing their recently finished guitars,
and
one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures
on
each of them. Most sounded excellent, and I am ashamed to say that
I
couldn't make much difference between the majority of the sounds,
neither did I ask for prices â¦
Best from the Hanseatics
Joachim
-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100
Von: "David Smith" <[2][4]d...@dolcesfogato.com>
An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[3][5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>,
"[4][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars -
10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really
not
that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a
lot
of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and
holding
instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on
his
reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to
find
good quality double tops starting around 3-4k.
As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because
it
is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of
double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho.
But,
if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then
there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top
is
just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill.
The
bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system -
[6][8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__goreguit
ars.com
.au_main_page-5Finnovation-5Fsummary-5Ffalcate-5Fbracing.html=DwI
FaQ&
c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1f
tlvx
MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=ftBiwVy6my8Jghtq9GSLqxpeyK73pixj5LSQEZHAiYQ&
s=hl
0F5qUAGqTuToEdzrjzuTjZ3Rl4kFVBRh16ZCVLBts= ) is more interesting.
It
makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides
more
volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely.
Anyway, some random thoughts.
David
-Original Message-
From: [7][9]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[8][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of
Tristan von
Neumann
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM
To: [9][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort...
I don't see any advantage...
On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
I read a
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Mark; Interesting article, but I would take issue with many of his points, as did many of the 58 people that responded to the blog. He got a headache and bellyache from listening to a guitar in a concert hall? I think that borders on hysterics. To say that Segovia would not approve belies the fact that Segovia constantly longed for a louder guitar, hence the development of the Ramirez 1A. So loud, I got complaints from my neighbors when I had one, but to difficult to play for someone without Segovia's monstrous hands. Best to have an older Hauser? Yes, but they are in short supply. Stenzel laments that demand for guitars like his are not like the demand for double tops, but seriously, most of the top guitarists in the world today play double top guitars from Gernot Wagner, Matthias Dahmann, Antonius Muller, Garrett Lee and Greg Smallman, which really isn't a double top, but has similar performance. These makers command prices up $40,000 with a 10 year waiting list due to high demand, because players want those guitars, even if Stenzel believes they should not want them! Stenzel claims that double tops don't have sustain? Mine does, and most of the ones I have heard do. I will admit that the tone is less âwarm' than my 54 year old Manuel Velazquez, a Hauser copy, but my new guitar, made by an up and coming master craftsman, Jeremy Cooper, using spruce, not cedar, had only a 1.5 year wait and a price just a fraction of a Smallman, and it is a very lively, responsive instrument that I am thrilled with. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist On Mar 24, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Mark Probert <[1]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: John wrote: Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers interested in trying? Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, workin with nomex or similar, etc.). The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a lute sound the way it does. Consider the following article for more [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.guitarsalo n.com_blog_-3Fp-3D1467=DwICAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuK y6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=VO17TMFd5AE45xeT L5CpHHfeYKx4wE0Oyg1ymaOAVwg=Fqp32HQ4e5x4deCkMBtUOHeu7QHo5OJHmZGGzwvvN BM= Kind regards .. mark. To get on or off this list see list information at [3]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwICAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n 1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=VO1 7TMFd5AE45xeTL5CpHHfeYKx4wE0Oyg1ymaOAVwg=w7_xDF9LDLHk93wBMFCtTGvsS7cf 6-zPr_I-yG8zSvE= References 1. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 2. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.guitarsalon.com_blog_-3Fp-3D1467=DwICAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=VO17TMFd5AE45xeTL5CpHHfeYKx4wE0Oyg1ymaOAVwg=Fqp32HQ4e5x4deCkMBtUOHeu7QHo5OJHmZGGzwvvNBM= 3. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwICAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=VO17TMFd5AE45xeTL5CpHHfeYKx4wE0Oyg1ymaOAVwg=w7_xDF9LDLHk93wBMFCtTGvsS7cf6-zPr_I-yG8zSvE=
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Two years ago, classic guitar virtuoso Jason Vieaux visited my city and had an incredible concert and master class. Jason is a Grammy winning artist. His guitar had a double top, and it was perhaps the loudest guitar I have ever heard. I played a small passage on it (he offered) and it is incredible, robust, a great instrument. I wonder if such aesthetics would emote the truly sweet, beautiful sound of our concept of how a good lite should sound. Ed Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 25, 2020, at 6:21 PM, John Mardinly wrote: > > I have heard the terminology ‘composite top' and 'sandwich top' in > addition to ‘double top', and they all refer to similar construction, > although the earliest ‘double top' guitars used a layer of a hexagonal > synthetic material called Nomex in between the two paper thin layers on > wood. > > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > Classical Guitarist/Lutenist > > On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Joachim Lüdtke <[1]jo.lued...@t-online.de> > wrote: > > Dear David, dear list, > I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but > only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a second, > 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually > called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do I > use it too strictly? > A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there were > guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen, and > there were young builders showing their recently finished guitars, and > one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures on > each of them. Most sounded excellent, and I am ashamed to say that I > couldn't make much difference between the majority of the sounds, > neither did I ask for prices … > Best from the Hanseatics > Joachim > -Original-Nachricht- > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top > Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100 > Von: "David Smith" <[2]d...@dolcesfogato.com> > An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>, > "[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - > 10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not > that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot > of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding > instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on his > reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to find > good quality double tops starting around 3-4k. > As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it > is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of > double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But, > if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then > there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top is > just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill. The > bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system - > [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__goreguitars.com > .au_main_page-5Finnovation-5Fsummary-5Ffalcate-5Fbracing.html=DwIFaQ& > c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx > MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=ftBiwVy6my8Jghtq9GSLqxpeyK73pixj5LSQEZHAiYQ=hl > 0F5qUAGqTuToEdzrjzuTjZ3Rl4kFVBRh16ZCVLBts= ) is more interesting. It > makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides more > volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely. > Anyway, some random thoughts. > David > -Original Message----- > From: [7]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[8]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Tristan von > Neumann > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM > To: [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top > For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort... > I don't see any advantage... > On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > > I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory > the two slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like > quite a costly process. The guitars made by the inventor of this > technology Matthias Dammann cost 15 000 € a pop. > Jürgne > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert > <[10]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > John wrote: > > Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers > interested in trying? > > Interesting technology. As appl
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
I have heard the terminology âcomposite top' and 'sandwich top' in addition to âdouble top', and they all refer to similar construction, although the earliest âdouble top' guitars used a layer of a hexagonal synthetic material called Nomex in between the two paper thin layers on wood. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Classical Guitarist/Lutenist On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Joachim Lüdtke <[1]jo.lued...@t-online.de> wrote: Dear David, dear list, I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do I use it too strictly? A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there were guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices ⦠Best from the Hanseatics Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100 Von: "David Smith" <[2]d...@dolcesfogato.com> An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>, "[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - 10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around 3-4k. As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system - [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__goreguitars.com .au_main_page-5Finnovation-5Fsummary-5Ffalcate-5Fbracing.html=DwIFaQ& c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=ftBiwVy6my8Jghtq9GSLqxpeyK73pixj5LSQEZHAiYQ=hl 0F5qUAGqTuToEdzrjzuTjZ3Rl4kFVBRh16ZCVLBts= ) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely. Anyway, some random thoughts. David -Original Message- From: [7]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[8]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM To: [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort... I don't see any advantage... On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote: I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann cost 15 000 ⬠a pop. Jürgne âââââââ Original Message âââââââ On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert <[10]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: John wrote: Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers interested in trying? Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, workin with nomex or similar, etc.). The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a lute sound the way it does. Consider the following article for more [11]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.guitars alon.com_blog_-3Fp-3D1467=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_ 2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=ftBiwVy 6my8Jghtq9GSLqxpeyK73pixj5LSQEZHAiYQ=yrLjgm1jpe8Pk-Xcuhj76e-HcnTDD AuAbyvOQzJWmg0=
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
How in the world would such a lute look like? And how would you be able
to tune the second set? Maybe he meant something like the Mace double
lute? (Dipharion?)
On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:05 PM Mathias Rösel
<[1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:
Anthony Bailes mentioned Marin Mersenne, Harmonie Universelle
(1636), who speaks about the possibility of building a lute with two
soundboards with strings on both of them, gut strings on one, metal
strings on the other (that's about resonance, I suppose). (Lute News
85, April 2008)
Mathias
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: [2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von
David Smith
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 20:16
An: Joachim Lüdtke; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
I have heard both sandwiched and double top used. The term double
top is more common in the states.
David
-Original Message-
From: [5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Joachim
Lüdtke
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:56 AM
To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
Dear David, dear list,
I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but
only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a
second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is
usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too
limited or do I use it too strictly?
A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there
were guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in
Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently
finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule
playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and
I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the
majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices â¦
Best from the Hanseatics
Joachim
-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100
Von: "David Smith" <[8]d...@dolcesfogato.com>
An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[9]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>,
"[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars -
10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really
not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used
for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching
bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann
price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top.
You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around
3-4k.
As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because
it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound
of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho.
But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone
then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double
top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is
overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system -
[12]https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_
bracing.html) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound
throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I
use it on a lute. Not likely.
Anyway, some random thoughts.
David
-Original Message-
From: [13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Tristan
von Neumann
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM
To: [15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort...
I don't see any advantage...
On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
> I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory
the two slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like
quite a costly process. The guitars made by the inventor of this
technology Matthias Dammann cost 15 000 ⬠a pop.
>
> Jürgne
>
>
>
>
> âââââââ Original Message âââââââ
> On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert
<[16]probe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> John wrote:
>>
>>> Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any
luthiers
>>> interested in trying?
>> Interesting technolo
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Anthony Bailes mentioned Marin Mersenne, Harmonie Universelle (1636), who speaks about the possibility of building a lute with two soundboards with strings on both of them, gut strings on one, metal strings on the other (that's about resonance, I suppose). (Lute News 85, April 2008) Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Smith Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. März 2020 20:16 An: Joachim Lüdtke; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top I have heard both sandwiched and double top used. The term double top is more common in the states. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Joachim Lüdtke Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:56 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Dear David, dear list, I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do I use it too strictly? A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there were guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices … Best from the Hanseatics Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100 Von: "David Smith" An: "Tristan von Neumann" , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - 10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around 3-4k. As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system - https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_bracing.html) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely. Anyway, some random thoughts. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort... I don't see any advantage... On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two > slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly > process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann > cost 15 000 € a pop. > > Jürgne > > > > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert wrote: > >> John wrote: >> >>> Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers >>> interested in trying? >> Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. >> I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any >> advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, >> workin with nomex or similar, etc.). >> >> The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be >> occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly >> stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a >> lute sound the way it does. >> >> Consider the following article for more >> >> https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1467 >> >> Kind regards >> >> .. mark. >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
I have heard both sandwiched and double top used. The term double top is more common in the states. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Joachim Lüdtke Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:56 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Dear David, dear list, I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do I use it too strictly? A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there were guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices … Best from the Hanseatics Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100 Von: "David Smith" An: "Tristan von Neumann" , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - 10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around 3-4k. As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system - https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_bracing.html) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely. Anyway, some random thoughts. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort... I don't see any advantage... On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two > slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly > process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann > cost 15 000 € a pop. > > Jürgne > > > > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert wrote: > >> John wrote: >> >>> Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers >>> interested in trying? >> Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. >> I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any >> advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, >> workin with nomex or similar, etc.). >> >> The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be >> occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly >> stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a >> lute sound the way it does. >> >> Consider the following article for more >> >> https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1467 >> >> Kind regards >> >> .. mark. >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
Dear David, dear list, I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a second, 'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do I use it too strictly? A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there were guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen, and there were young builders showing their recently finished guitars, and one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded excellent, and I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between the majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices … Best from the Hanseatics Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100 Von: "David Smith" An: "Tristan von Neumann" , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - 10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around 3-4k. As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system - https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_bracing.html) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely. Anyway, some random thoughts. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort... I don't see any advantage... On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two > slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly > process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann > cost 15 000 € a pop. > > Jürgne > > > > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert wrote: > >> John wrote: >> >>> Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers >>> interested in trying? >> Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. >> I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any >> advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, >> workin with nomex or similar, etc.). >> >> The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be >> occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly >> stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a >> lute sound the way it does. >> >> Consider the following article for more >> >> https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1467 >> >> Kind regards >> >> .. mark. >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - 10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on his reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around 3-4k. As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But, if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top is just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system - https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_bracing.html) is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides more volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely. Anyway, some random thoughts. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort... I don't see any advantage... On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two > slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly > process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann > cost 15 000 € a pop. > > Jürgne > > > > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert wrote: > >> John wrote: >> >>> Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers >>> interested in trying? >> Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. >> I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any >> advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, >> workin with nomex or similar, etc.). >> >> The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be >> occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly >> stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a >> lute sound the way it does. >> >> Consider the following article for more >> >> https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1467 >> >> Kind regards >> >> .. mark. >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort... I don't see any advantage... On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote: I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann cost 15 000 € a pop. Jürgne ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert wrote: John wrote: Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers interested in trying? Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, workin with nomex or similar, etc.). The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a lute sound the way it does. Consider the following article for more https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1467 Kind regards .. mark. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann cost 15 000 € a pop. Jürgne ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert wrote: > John wrote: > > > Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any > > luthiers interested in trying? > > Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. > I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really > any advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process > for starters, workin with nomex or similar, etc.). > > The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there > may be occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with > an overly stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of > what makes a lute sound the way it does. > > Consider the following article for more > > https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1467 > > Kind regards > > .. mark. > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double Top
John wrote: >Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any >luthiers interested in trying? > Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure. I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, workin with nomex or similar, etc.). The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a lute sound the way it does. Consider the following article for more https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1467 Kind regards .. mark. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
