Re: OT: missing tlmgr in Linux distros (was 'Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu')
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: > Is there really no easy way to have tlmgr alongside > Debian/Ubuntu-provided TeXLive binaries? Regards > Liviu > > PS For those concerned, there is an Ubuntu Idea [1] where you can vote > on this issue. > [1] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11449/ > Apparently not. Norbert Preining, one of teh devels (that was) working on a feature that would make tlmgr work alongside distro package management add a Brainstorm idea a couple of days ago. Please read below. Liviu - There is no way that a second package manager independent of the normal packaging infra structure (apt here, or rpm, or whatever) can work, because it will break the main system. TeX Live Manager is currently only for system trees. THere is a patch in the dev repository for activating user mode, so that tlmgr can be used to manage TEXMFHOME, but it has not been worked on since quite some time (due to myself lacking the time of, I developped the initial version). So instead of complaining and suggesting useless things that will never happen due to the way distributions work, you could get your hands dirty and help coding perl! -
OT: missing tlmgr in Linux distros (was 'Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu')
Dear all Even if it's quite off-topic for lyx-users, re-opening an old discussion. On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: > Sven Hoexter wrote: >> The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party >> installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages. >> And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and >> replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set. > > Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate > update to the most recent packages from CTAN. > Most people in this thread raised up the 'update' issues: tlmgr can update packages to the latest available versions. But what about installing new packages, such as those that are not packaged by default by the distro? (I make heavy use of 'frletter', but there's no way it'll get packaged any time soon by Debian/Ubuntu. Otherwise, half of LyX's document classes are unavailable.) What about installing non-default fonts? (I'm specifically thinking of Optima/URW Classico, but other needs may arise.) Some suggested that users advanced to need non-default classes should have advanced knowledge and manage an upstream LaTeX installation. Although I might have enough experience to figure this out, I'm pretty sure I'm not enthusiastic enough to manage dependency problems arising from an uninstalled TeXLive or to manually install LaTeX packages or _fonts_. And at the same time I do need non-default packages. Is there really no easy way to have tlmgr alongside Debian/Ubuntu-provided TeXLive binaries? Regards Liviu PS For those concerned, there is an Ubuntu Idea [1] where you can vote on this issue. [1] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11449/ > I cannot judge *buntu or Debian, but openSuse does not update the TeXLive > package often enough for my needs, so I'd always recommend to abandon the > distro version and go for the upstream TeXLive version. > > Jürgen > -- Do you know how to read? http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader Do you know how to write? http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
On 2010-08-20, Julien Rioux wrote: > On 20/08/2010 10:49 AM, Rob Oakes wrote: >> Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind. Should we >> create another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the >> system LaTeX packages? Seconded. At least with the internal HTML export, LaTeX should be a suggestion and not a requirement for LyX. > Certainly some users will find this helpful. Another thing to consider: > aren't there two types of dependencies for .deb packages? Actually 3: Required, Suggested, Recommended http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-depends IMO, LyX should *recommend* texlive. Günter
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
Rob Oakes wrote: > > Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: > > immediate update to the most recent packages from CTAN. > > I think it really depends on your needs. I could not agree more. > The question for the user > becomes, how often do you really need to update your LaTeX distribution? > Given its maturity and the high quality of the original packages, I've > found the answer is: not very often (at least for me). If you use relatively new packages such as biblatex, the situation is quite different, since the package evolves quickly and you often need to update in order to have a bug fixed or to use a new feature. But for the core packages, a one-year update is usually enough. Jürgen
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
On 20/08/2010 10:49 AM, Rob Oakes wrote: This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by themselves. I can only dream. I'm not sure that it's that simple. (Or if it is, I really need to learn more about packaging!) What I had in mind: third-party python packages that are not managed by the distro. You download the source, do setup.py install, and there it is, available for import, without fidling with PATH, but still installed outside of the distro packages, preventing a mess. But anyway, let's get back on topic. Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind. Should we create another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the system LaTeX packages? Certainly some users will find this helpful. Another thing to consider: aren't there two types of dependencies for .deb packages? Required and suggested? What is the default behavior for apt? Perhaps moving texlive to the suggested list is all it takes to satisfy everyone. Cheers, Julien
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
> This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I > agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by > themselves. I can only dream. I'm not sure that it's that simple. (Or if it is, I really need to learn more about packaging!) I maintain a python project for creating backups (http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/science-and-technology/time-drive). While the packaging scripts use setup.py (distutils) in order to structure things during the build process, I'm not sure that it is used during installation. (My knowledge of packaging is minimal. I struggled through it once so that I could figure out Time Drive, and a second time while learning to package LyX. In both cases, I had good examples and people had already done all the hard work for me.) On the user end, everything seems to be managed by apt and dpkg. Which takes us back to the original problem, there doesn't seem to be a way for the systems to automatically talk to one another on the user's system. It still requires a human being (or a very smart build system) to create specific packages for the platform. Which brings me to the question in the front of my mind. Should we create another Ubuntu/Debian package for LyX that doesn't require the system LaTeX packages? Cheers, Rob
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:33 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: > Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate > update to the most recent packages from CTAN. I think it really depends on your needs. The question for the user becomes, how often do you really need to update your LaTeX distribution? Given its maturity and the high quality of the original packages, I've found the answer is: not very often (at least for me). For example, I just recently updated to TexLive 2009 on my main Ubuntu workstation. For years, only TeXLive 2007 was available as part of the package repositories, so I used it. In all that time, there was only one time that I needed a newer copy of a package and couldn't find a workaround. Sure TeXLive included a bunch of benefits, but I'd be pretty hard-pressed to name one that I take advantage of frequently. In fact, without referring to the change-log, I'd be pretty hard pressed to name any at all (updated Tufte classes that correctly number margin figures might be one). For this reason, up to the second versions of LaTeX packages aren't really all that important to me. If the releases were packaged once per year, I think that's more than enough for my needs (and I would argue for the needs of most other users). But the three years that it took to update TeXLive 2007 to TexLive 2009 was probably too long. Though I didn't notice any practical need, there was a psychological need. It's important to feel like your software is maintained, and going such a long time between updates made TeXLive on Debian feel abandoned. (As a caveat, I'd like the ability to download needed packages on the fly (like MikTeX allows), but I am willing to forego that particular nicety for the convenience of a single packaging tool.) So, though i largely agree with your recommendation, I would attach on addendum. For novice LaTeX/LyX users, I would recommend staying with the default packages. For more advanced users that are comfortable with managing their own LaTeX installations, going upstream makes a lot of sense. As someone earlier in this thread said, I wonder if it would be worth packaging a version of LyX for this particular demographic. I wouldn't make it the default, but we could easily set up a PPA (in addition to Red Hat/Open SuSe equivalents) and post installation instructions somewhere on the website. If an advanced user is willing to set up a custom LaTeX distribution, surely they are motivated enough to seek out LyX options that don't require system packages? Just my two cents, though. Cheers, Rob
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
On 20/08/2010 7:29 AM, Sven Hoexter wrote: The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages. And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set. Right. We know you can have two systems in parallel: distro repository manages system-wide texlive, and tlmgr manages local user texlive. I would think, though, that there should be a way for the distro repository to set this up automatically for the end user. This is how, after all, python packages are managed (through setup.py). But I agree if you really need this, advanced users can figure it out by themselves. I can only dream. Regards, Julien
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
2010/8/20 Jürgen Spitzmüller : > Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate > update to the most recent packages from CTAN. But that strategy is equal for *buntu itself. You are frozen to packages version coming with *buntu release. The only exception was minor version changes of Firefox and GNOME (these I can observed). Hopefully, there are PPAs - the only problem with them is they are not always maintained by people close to the project of which package may interest you. I think (with all respect to the maintainers and users) that *buntu strategy is to have central package maintenance smarter than dumb users which may broke something installing different versions of lot of packages. There are certainly lot of technical explanations why this strategy better than freedom. It would be nice to have two lines of *buntu: one kept with long term support aligned packages limited to released with distro release and second with all packages available with newest possible version with disclaimer, that user takes them on it own responsibility. It would be nice, too, to allow project have their packages maintained for distro releases, but in more official way than PPAs. But, I typed so many words about this topic and this is not a place to discuss such. Apologize. -- Manveru jabber: manv...@manveru.pl gg: 1624001 http://www.manveru.pl
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
Sven Hoexter wrote: > The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party > installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages. > And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and > replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set. Sure. But you lose one of the most important features of TeXLive: immediate update to the most recent packages from CTAN. I cannot judge *buntu or Debian, but openSuse does not update the TeXLive package often enough for my needs, so I'd always recommend to abandon the distro version and go for the upstream TeXLive version. Jürgen
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:53:32PM +0200, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote: > Liviu Andronic wrote: > > > FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package > > > manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository. > > > > That's very strange. Why would they block this? > > The argument, AFAIU, is that the distributors do not want yet another package > managment (i.e., tlmgr), but let their own package managers (apt, zypper, > etc.) handle everything. In a way, the TeXLive package managment and the > distributor's package management contradict. The Problem is that you often end up with a mess because some third party installers/package manager overwrite files of your distribution packages. And a few weeks later a new update for your distribution arrives and replaces some of the newer files with another older but patched set. If you choose a sane path for the installation and adjust your enviroment variables accordingly I'm pretty sure that you can create a working enviroment with tlmgr. If my memory serves me right I even set it up once to check some bugreports. As rude as it may sound, I think people who want it that way and know what todo don't need to ask here. If you've to ask here don't do it. If you'd like to try it anyway: VirtualBox or Xen/KVM with LVM+snapshots give you a way to try it out outside of your main system with easy rollback mechanism. For the Debian part of the discussion: There is always equivs which let you create empty dummy packages which provide the needed packages you try to replace. I'm not recommending this and you should understand what you're doing. Sven -- If you won’t forgive me the rest of my life Let me apologize while I’m still alive [Less than Jake - Rest Of My Life]
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
Liviu Andronic wrote: > > FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package > > manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository. > > That's very strange. Why would they block this? The argument, AFAIU, is that the distributors do not want yet another package managment (i.e., tlmgr), but let their own package managers (apt, zypper, etc.) handle everything. In a way, the TeXLive package managment and the distributor's package management contradict. This is unfortunate, since tlmgr is an important bit of TeXLive. That's why I always install TeXLive directly from upstream (i.e., the DVD or the net installer). Jürgen
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
I have had the same question about the TexLive package manager (tlmgr) for a while now. When you install tl2009 on Windows you get tlmgr. In Linux you don't (unless you install from sources, apparently). Ehud Kaplan On 8/20/2010 6:23 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Julien Rioux wrote: FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository. That's very strange. Why would they block this? Liviu -- Ehud Kaplan, Ph.D. Jules and Doris Stein/Research to Prevent Blindness/ Professor *The laboratory of Visual& Computational Neuroscience* Depts. of Neuroscience, Ophthalmology, Chemical& Structural Biology The Mount Sinai School of Medicine One Gustave Levy Place New York, NY, 10029
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Julien Rioux wrote: > FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager > when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository. > That's very strange. Why would they block this? Liviu -- Do you know how to read? http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader Do you know how to write? http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
Hello Rob On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: > PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be > happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas > yet?). To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to > patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there > is interest. > I'm currently in the process of switching to Xubuntu---I'm probably in for some stability, coming from the rolling Debian testing and previously Gentoo---and personally I'd love to have LyX 1.6.x and the 2.0 alphas running independently on my netbook. Thanks for working on the Ubuntu packaging. Regards Liviu -- Do you know how to read? http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader Do you know how to write? http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
On 19/08/2010 7:28 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: However, Ubuntu updated the version of LaTeX to TeXLive 2009 in 10.04. FYI> Although this is true, you cannot use the texlive 2009 package manager when texlive 2009 is installed from the ubuntu repository. -- Julien
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
Hi Fareed, Does this new LyX package depend on the the TexLive in Ubuntu's repositories? Ubuntu's version of TexLive was out-of-date for a long time, so I installed TexLive 2009 directly from its net installer, to use its latex package manager. As a result I've had to install any latex related programs (LyX, kile, etc) from source to prevent apt from installing its own version of TexLive. Unfortunately, it does. I simply made a few (very minor) modifications to the existing debian package and then submitted it to the Launchpad build service. I did not change the package requirements. However, Ubuntu updated the version of LaTeX to TeXLive 2009 in 10.04. If you're using an older version of Ubuntu, it is possible to have multiple versions of TeX installed side by side. This article explains how (even though the instructions use Ubuntu 10.04 as an example, they work with older versions as well): http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/07/15/latex-custom If you object to that, it's also possible to create dummy packages, though that is more involved: http://texblog.net/latex-archive/linux/kile-texlive-2008-equivs/ If you've already been installing from source, though, you may wish to continue with that. It makes updating to newer versions significantly easier, and it sounds as though you've already made the initial time investment (which is what I find killer). Cheers, Rob
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
On 08/19/2010 04:24 AM, Ignacio García wrote: > I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging > (insofar as they are related to LyX). > I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to > include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). > Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this > moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx). > For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a > PPA that you can use > (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable). Does this new LyX package depend on the the TexLive in Ubuntu's repositories? Ubuntu's version of TexLive was out-of-date for a long time, so I installed TexLive 2009 directly from its net installer, to use its latex package manager. As a result I've had to install any latex related programs (LyX, kile, etc) from source to prevent apt from installing its own version of TexLive. I don't particularly mind having to manage latex related programs manually, but it would be nice if apt could manage LyX without forcing me to use Ubuntu's TexLive.
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
Rob Oakes wrote: > I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging > (insofar as they are related to LyX). > I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to > include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). > Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this > moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx). > For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a > PPA that you can use > (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable). Thanks! That is very good news. Moreover, a lyx-1.6.7 deb package is available on getdeb repos from 2010-07-23, http://www.getdeb.net/software/LyX > PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be > happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas > yet?). To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to > patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there > is interest. I am used to compile the alpha releases, but I think that it would be very useful, always provided both the stable and the devel releases are fully independently operational. Thanks and regards Ignacio García
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
2010/8/17 Pavel Sanda : > Rob Oakes wrote: >> Dear LyX Users and Developers, > > firstly, thanks to care about ubuntu repos. the most frequent bug report > is the combination of lyx 1.6.5 & qt-4.6 in lynx; dont know if buntu's > policies permit this but it would be great if all buntu users got 1.6.7 > automatically updated through the online updates - i guess that regular > crashes really debase the reputation of the package in the users eyes. As far as I know they were allow to patch the bug only. They do not want to change functionality and change any library dependencies. But I think this is only available for packages actively maintained on Launchpad for Ubuntu maintenance. I wonder if it is possible to patch the version and release bugfix version. -- Manveru jabber: manv...@manveru.pl gg: 1624001 http://www.manveru.pl
Re: LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
Rob Oakes wrote: > Dear LyX Users and Developers, firstly, thanks to care about ubuntu repos. the most frequent bug report is the combination of lyx 1.6.5 & qt-4.6 in lynx; dont know if buntu's policies permit this but it would be great if all buntu users got 1.6.7 automatically updated through the online updates - i guess that regular crashes really debase the reputation of the package in the users eyes. pavel
LyX 1.6.7 Packages for Ubuntu
Dear LyX Users and Developers, I wanted to provide a bit of an update to my adventures with Ubuntu packaging (insofar as they are related to LyX). I've spoken with the Ubuntu developers, and they have granted our request to include 1.6.7 in the next version of Ubuntu (Maverick Meerkat, 10.10). Packages have been compiled and are available from Launchpad as of this moment (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lyx). For users of Lucid Lynx (10.04) who would like to upgrade, I have created a PPA that you can use (https://launchpad.net/~lyx-outline-devel/+archive/lyx-stable). To update, use the following commands from the terminal: sudo add-apt-repository ppa:lyx-outline-devel/lyx-stable sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get upgrade This will add the repository to your list of software sources and then update any software you have installed. If you have any problems, please let me know. Cheers, Rob PS, if there is interest from the developer/user community, I would also be happy to create a PPA for the latest alpha of LyX 2 (or we on the betas yet?). To prevent it from destroying your system, though, I would need to patch the packaging files and inertia prevents me from doing so unless there is interest.