Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[hari kumar via Marxism]

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1) Most of the discussion I have seen here, has turned around broader
questions of Sanders vision regarding 'socialism'. Interesting to this
group for sure, including whether he defends or not - Castro - etc.
This discussion has its own merits.
But how it is viewed, by an electorate - is prone to both ideology and
advertising.
So it is 'pliable'.

2) But no one, I believe, has even commented on the willingness with which
he allows himself to be painted as unthinking and unable to substantiate
public benefit funding. For example, why is he not clearer on the public
health care funding issue? He simply plays into the myth that 'socialists'
are free-spenders with no thought behind it.
I mean is it so difficult to read (or for his myriad advisers) to read the
lancet - See:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)33019-3/fulltext
His response to Anderson Cooper on the 60 minutes thing is quite abysmal:
(Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:27:39 -0500 From: Louis Proyect 
 From "Sixty Minutes" last night.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EgTXJ-49IQ
 )

3) Having said all that - I do agree with Michael M's statements that the
progressives and working class, have to get rid of Trump as the incumbent.
Having said that - while butressing and working within whatever broad
movements do come up (including the Sanders forces) - an independent broad
workers party is surely needed.

Not saying anything new here, I recognise that - except to point out the
cack-handed responses of Sanders - who clearly has an empty rhetorical, and
braggartish swagger to him. A few more soberly painted facts might help.

Hari Kumar
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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In the first place, in reply to Chris Slee's comments on how the red
baiting attacks on Sanders should be countered: Sure, we can counter it all
we like, but that's not the point. The point is that we socialists don't
exactly have the influence that the capitalist media does and those attacks
are likely to have a major effect.

Mark says we shouldn't be distracted by the "bullshit coverage and the
reality TV". But that too misses the point. Before we even start to think
about what we should do, we need to try to figure out some idea of what may
happen, what can influence things, as well as what seems to be happening.

David W. says that the general election will be completely different from
the primaries. In what sense does he mean that? If he's saying that a
candidate Sanders in the general election will come under far fiercer
attack than he has in the primaries? If so, then I agree with him (although
we'll see in tonight's Democratic debate).

Finally, to return to my original point: Sanders bases his strategy on the
claim that he will vastly increase the turnout of young people who don't
vote normally. Up until now, the evidence is that that is not the case.
That doesn't mean it won't change, but we cannot assume it will.

John Reimann

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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[STEVEN ROBINSON via Marxism]

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You are right that Nader was never officially a member of the Greens, but he 
worked closely with them going back to at least the mid 1990s..

Regarding the cautionary note, leaving aside the weaknesses of the organization 
itself, I understand that Hawkins has competition for the Green Party 
Presidential nomination.  How serious is that?  I saw some grumbling months ago 
from a Green Party supporter about Hawkins' position on Syria. Is that REALLY 
an issue?

SR



> On February 25, 2020 at 4:21 PM Dayne Goodwin  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:53 AM STEVEN ROBINSON via Marxism < 
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > wrote:
> 
> > > . . . It may well turn out to be the biggest opening the Greens 
> have had since Nader left the GP in 2004. SR
> > 
> > > 
> In case you or a reader don't know, Steven, Nader was never a member of 
> the Green Party; Nader let the Green Party run him as a candidate.  After 
> Nader's relative success in the 2000 presidential election, the Democrat 
> Party establishment successfully pressured Green Party leadership not to run 
> Nader again (Nader was willing to be the Green Party presidential candidate 
> again in 2004).
> 
> 
> > > 
> > > 


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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[Dayne Goodwin via Marxism]

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On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:53 AM STEVEN ROBINSON via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>  . . . It may well turn out to be the biggest opening the Greens have had
> since Nader left the GP in 2004. SR
>

In case you or a reader don't know, Steven, Nader was never a member of the
Green Party; Nader let the Green Party run him as a candidate.  After
Nader's relative success in the 2000 presidential election, the Democrat
Party establishment successfully pressured Green Party leadership not to
run Nader again (Nader was willing to be the Green Party presidential
candidate again in 2004).

In regard to the Green Party now, note Mark's cautionary comment:
On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 1:08 PM Mark Lause via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

Can something be done through the Greens?  Perhaps, if Howie is nominated.
> But don't expect the structure of the party to do it. Don't just cast your
> consumer preference.  It will take hundreds of committed radicals to get
> involved and build some sort of an organization or network of thousands.
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Countering redbaiting should be combined with exposing the crimes of US 
imperialism.  For example, the problems of Cuba and Venezuela are largely due 
to the US economic blockades against those countries.  Sanders may not be 
willing to say this, but  it needs to be said.

Chris Slee

From: Marxism  on behalf of Michael 
Meeropol via Marxism 
Sent: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 1:33:25 AM
To: Chris Slee 
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

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This whole focus on turnout in the primaries ignores one major fact ---
MANY democrats DON'T CARE who is nominated --- they want to beat Trump and
will come out to vote against him.   How else to explain the record
turnouts in 2018?

The most important thing we can do is to counter the rising tide of
anti-Sanders red-baiting.  I was unfortunate enough to be stuck in an
automobile dealer's waiting room while my car was serviced.  As in too many
public places, the TV was turned to Trump-TV (alias Fox) --- and the were
going on and on about Bernie supporting Castro and Venezuela and how
horrible those countries are ---

That's Trump's playbook and it is worth fighting against ---


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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

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David's right.  The media's sucking those stories about what Sanders
supporters did out of their thumbs.

The gut-level hatred of the Democratic establishment for Sanders is
downright rabid.  The batcrap crazy rant of Chris Matthews comparing
Sanders' victory in Nevada to Hitler's invasion of France was unusually
only in that Matthews is so clueless that he was saying out loud what the
Democratic allies in the media have been hinting at for months.  For a
while, they sought to coax reform-minded voters towards Warren, but when
she started showing strength, they began battering her as well.  Their only
objection to GOP Mayor Bloomberg is whether they can get him to pass his TV
audition.  The current holy war is about Sanders saying basically the same
thing that Obama said about Cuba.  We should remember that the Democratic
bosses would rather lose an election to the Republicans than to allow
themselves and their faction to be pushed from power.  They're already
making noise about Sanders being unsupportable, and I doubt they'll let it
get that far.

That said, we shouldn't be distracted by the bullshit coverage and the
reality TV.  What needs to concern us about voting and national election
campaigns is how we can use them to build something of substance that can
carry some political clout beyond the election.  What we need are not these
consumer satisfaction surveys but feet on the street, hands at work
building for the future.  Going Democratic essentially sets that
consideration aside, which is the essence of why it's unacceptable.

Remember the big movements Obama supporters said we were going build in the
wake of his election?  Never happened.  Then, there were the big marches
against Trump on his inauguration, and the Democrats got control of the
local organizing groups, got everybody off the streets, and insisted that
the party would handle the problems.

Can something be done through the Greens?  Perhaps, if Howie is nominated.
But don't expect the structure of the party to do it. Don't just cast your
consumer preference.  It will take hundreds of committed radicals to get
involved and build some sort of an organization or network of thousands.

Cheers,
Mark L.
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[DW via Marxism]

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Steve R. wrote: "A substantial portion of Sanders supporters in 2016 did
not vote for Clinton, basically abstaining. A fact the Democrat leadership
frequently trumpets."

Yes, but...

The far more important point never made (usually, it's made on CNN talking
heads once in a while) is that it was "Clinton supporters", that is the
Black and working class base that voted for Obama 2 times that didn't show
up to vote in *enough* numbers in a few districts in Wisconsin and Michagan
that put Trump in the WH: not "Sanders supporters". So the Dems leadership
doesn't learn. Every poll *after* those elections in 2016 showed Sanders
beating Trump *especially* on those two states. Who are the assholes now?

Of course Sanders didn't face a media red-baiting campaign then either, or
not as much as one as we see today. Red-baiting *does* work, don't think it
won't. It will likely be enough to swing those states in favor of Trump
last time to remain so this time.

My only point is that these are the primary elections. The general election
will be completely different.

David W.
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[Michael Meeropol via Marxism]

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Sorry Dennis -- but I've already thrown in my lot with the "FASCISM IS
COMING, THE WORLD IS BURNING" crew  I know that this is a (miniscule?)
minority position on this list ---

I know that the majority of people here do not accept the analogy to the
refusal of Communists and Socialists to make common cause against Hitler
--- but that is the (heretical?) reason why I am "toadying" for a worthless
party ---

So that is why even a horrible corporate democrat is to be preferred to
Trump ---

That person would owe his/her presidency to the energized youth and people
of color --- and unlike Obama will have to deliver in order to get
re-elected --

Lessons learned by the disappointments of the Obama administration MIGHT
actually lead to an upsurge in activism that will keep the ball rolling ---

We know what we'll get with Trump -- more judges, more support for
polluters and fossil fuels, more validating racism and xenophobia --- the
planet may already be too far gone but it will DEFINITELY be with four more
years of Trump 

Therefore, I think almost any Dem alternative would be qualitatively better
than Trump ---

But you're probably right --- such sentiments are probably not very useful
on a Marxist discussion list ---

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 1:29 PM Dennis Brasky  wrote:

>
>
>>
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[STEVEN ROBINSON via Marxism]

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A substantial portion of Sanders supporters in 2016 did not vote for Clinton, 
basically abstaining. A fact the Democrat leadership frequently trumpets.

If - as I believe - Sanders is again cheated, the anger of the supporters will 
likely be even greater than it was back in 2016 and it was intense then (still 
is).  Seems this would give an opening for the Green Party, to urge those 
supporters to support and vote for Hawkins. Given the inevitable fury of the 
Sanders movement at being cheated, I think we would find a most receptive 
audience. It may well turn out to be the biggest opening the Greens have had 
since Nader left the GP in 2004. SR


> On February 25, 2020 at 10:34 AM Dennis Brasky via Marxism 
> If Bernie is cheated out of the nomination as was the case in 2016 and
> declares his independence from the Dems and runs a third party campaign,  I
> would do whatever I could to support it. If he repeats his surrender of
> four years ago, we need to get behind the candidacy of Howie Hawkins of the
> Green Party.
> 
> >
> >
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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> Michael - While I respect you for much of the political work you have
> done, I must say that your cheerleading for the Democratic Party is a bit
> nauseating on a MARXIST list!
>
> "Whoever the Dems choose"??? When did you become such a toady to this
> worthless party? And what if it isn't Sanders but some moderate,
> pro-corporate slug - fill in the blank, the Dems have many of them. In the
> name of a short-sighted Anyone but Trump hysteria, what would we get if one
> of them defeats Trump in November?
>
> We'd get a "savior" who is unwilling to address any of the changes that
> tens of millions of Americans now demand;
> continued exorbitant medical bills/insurance/Big Pharma ripoffs,
> college tuition that takes decades for young people to pay back,
> more bowing to the demands of banks,
> the rise of more billionaires who don't have to pay as much in taxes as
> much of the working class,
>
> Wouldn’t that disappointment four years later produce another Trump, as it
> did in 2016 when 5 million who voted for Obama in 2012 STAYED HOME,
> frustrated and demoralized that the Dems are an all-talk/do-nothing party??
>

If Bernie is cheated out of the nomination as was the case in 2016 and
declares his independence from the Dems and runs a third party campaign,  I
would do whatever I could to support it. If he repeats his surrender of
four years ago, we need to get behind the candidacy of Howie Hawkins of the
Green Party.

>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:26 AM Michael Meeropol via Marxism
>
>>
>> THEREFORE, it is most appropriate that everybody vote for the person they
>> like the best  and then work like Hell for WHOEVER the Dems choose ...
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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Michael - While I respect you for much of the political work you have done,
I must say that your cheerleading for the Democratic Party is a bit
nauseating on a MARXIST list!

"Whoever the Dems choose"??? When did you become such a toady to this
worthless party? And what if it isn't Sanders but some moderate,
pro-corporate slug - fill in the blank, the Dems have many of them. In the
name of a short-sighted Anyone but Trump hysteria, what would we get if one
of them defeats Trump in November?

We'd get a "savior" who is unwilling to address any of the changes that
tens of millions of Americans now demand;
continued exorbitant medical bills/insurance/Big Pharma ripoffs,
college tuition that takes decades for young people to pay back,
more bowing to the demands of banks,
the rise of more billionaires who don't have to pay as much in taxes as
much of the working class,

Wouldn’t that disappointment four years later produce another Trump, as it
did in 2016 when 5 million who voted for Obama in 2012 STAYED HOME,
frustrated and demoralized that the Dems are an all-talk/do-nothing party??

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 11:26 AM Michael Meeropol via Marxism

>
> THEREFORE, it is most appropriate that everybody vote for the person they
> like the best  and then work like Hell for WHOEVER the Dems choose ...
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[Michael Meeropol via Marxism]

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John is 100% right -- WE JUST DON'T KNOW --- (that's why sports teams play
the games rather than award the trophy to the team with the best record
going into the tournament!) --

THEREFORE, it is most appropriate that everybody vote for the person they
like the best  and then work like Hell for WHOEVER the Dems choose ...

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:39 AM John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Michael Meeropol is dealing with a different issue. Yes, many voters even
> including former Republican voters, loathe and want to defeat Trump. That
> was proven in the 2018 elections, which had a record turnout for a midterm
> election. But that vote went to middle-of-the-road Democrats. Of the 41
> seats that were "flipped", every single one went to such Democrats. There
> were a few seats that were considered winnable for Democrats in which a
> Sanders-type candidate ran. Those seats weren't flipped. And so far, the
> traditionally non-voting youth have not turned out to vote for Sanders in
> any large numbers.
>
> This doesn't necessarily mean that it will be the same this November, or
> even later in the primary season. It's possible that if the Berniemobile
> gathers momentum, this will inspire this layer of traditional non-voters.
> The point is that it has not done so until this point.
>
> Of course, if Sanders is the nominee we will see an avalanche of
> red-baiting, as well as attacks on Medicare for all. The point is that this
> could very well have an affect on the middle-of-the-road voters who flipped
> those 41 seats in 2018, and unless there is a new layer of radicalized
> youth who turn out, the result of a Sanders-led Democratic ticket could be
> very dire... as could the exact opposite.
>
> The leadership of the Democratic Party who are certain that Sanders will
> lead them to disaster are lost in the wilderness. But so are those who are
> certain that Sanders would handily defeat Trump. My point is that we simply
> don't know, not any more than those meteorologists who try to predict the
> track of a hurricane.
>
> John Reimann
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 6:41 AM Michael Meeropol 
> wrote:
>
>> This whole focus on turnout in the primaries ignores one major fact ---
>> MANY democrats DON'T CARE who is nominated --- they want to beat Trump and
>> will come out to vote against him.   How else to explain the record
>> turnouts in 2018?
>>
>> The most important thing we can do is to counter the rising tide of
>> anti-Sanders red-baiting.  I was unfortunate enough to be stuck in an
>> automobile dealer's waiting room while my car was serviced.  As in too many
>> public places, the TV was turned to Trump-TV (alias Fox) --- and the were
>> going on and on about Bernie supporting Castro and Venezuela and how
>> horrible those countries are ---
>>
>> That's Trump's playbook and it is worth fighting against ---
>>
>>
>> 
>>> 
>>
>>
>
> --
> *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
> Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
>
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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Michael Meeropol is dealing with a different issue. Yes, many voters even
including former Republican voters, loathe and want to defeat Trump. That
was proven in the 2018 elections, which had a record turnout for a midterm
election. But that vote went to middle-of-the-road Democrats. Of the 41
seats that were "flipped", every single one went to such Democrats. There
were a few seats that were considered winnable for Democrats in which a
Sanders-type candidate ran. Those seats weren't flipped. And so far, the
traditionally non-voting youth have not turned out to vote for Sanders in
any large numbers.

This doesn't necessarily mean that it will be the same this November, or
even later in the primary season. It's possible that if the Berniemobile
gathers momentum, this will inspire this layer of traditional non-voters.
The point is that it has not done so until this point.

Of course, if Sanders is the nominee we will see an avalanche of
red-baiting, as well as attacks on Medicare for all. The point is that this
could very well have an affect on the middle-of-the-road voters who flipped
those 41 seats in 2018, and unless there is a new layer of radicalized
youth who turn out, the result of a Sanders-led Democratic ticket could be
very dire... as could the exact opposite.

The leadership of the Democratic Party who are certain that Sanders will
lead them to disaster are lost in the wilderness. But so are those who are
certain that Sanders would handily defeat Trump. My point is that we simply
don't know, not any more than those meteorologists who try to predict the
track of a hurricane.

John Reimann

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 6:41 AM Michael Meeropol  wrote:

> This whole focus on turnout in the primaries ignores one major fact ---
> MANY democrats DON'T CARE who is nominated --- they want to beat Trump and
> will come out to vote against him.   How else to explain the record
> turnouts in 2018?
>
> The most important thing we can do is to counter the rising tide of
> anti-Sanders red-baiting.  I was unfortunate enough to be stuck in an
> automobile dealer's waiting room while my car was serviced.  As in too many
> public places, the TV was turned to Trump-TV (alias Fox) --- and the were
> going on and on about Bernie supporting Castro and Venezuela and how
> horrible those countries are ---
>
> That's Trump's playbook and it is worth fighting against ---
>
>
> 
>> 
>
>

-- 
*“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black
Jacobins" by C. L. R. James
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders's "turnout" strategy not working

[Michael Meeropol via Marxism]

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This whole focus on turnout in the primaries ignores one major fact ---
MANY democrats DON'T CARE who is nominated --- they want to beat Trump and
will come out to vote against him.   How else to explain the record
turnouts in 2018?

The most important thing we can do is to counter the rising tide of
anti-Sanders red-baiting.  I was unfortunate enough to be stuck in an
automobile dealer's waiting room while my car was serviced.  As in too many
public places, the TV was turned to Trump-TV (alias Fox) --- and the were
going on and on about Bernie supporting Castro and Venezuela and how
horrible those countries are ---

That's Trump's playbook and it is worth fighting against ---



> 
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