Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Checked on EPC , They are some 950's and 952's that have same camshaft and IP pump. There are variations depending on engine no PEter -Original Message- From: John W. Reames III [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 June 2006 02:02 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences > But a 124 with a 603.96 engine is faster yet! > > Marshall Hows that compare to a 210.025 :) -j. (1999 210.025/125.6k Miles) (1985 123.133/222k Miles) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
> But a 124 with a 603.96 engine is faster yet! > > Marshall Hows that compare to a 210.025 :) -j. (1999 210.025/125.6k Miles) (1985 123.133/222k Miles)
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Aight, with out the Finnish mods and just Dave M.'s mods. On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:41:09 -0500, Marshall Booth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Luther Gulseth wrote: And the ultimate would be a 124 coupe with OM603 w/Finnish mods.. Not if you wanted the engine to last for 250-300kmi!! Marshall -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (236 kmi) '82 300CD (160 kmi) '82 300D (74 kmi) needs MAJOR work
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
And the ultimate would be a 124 coupe with OM603 w/Finnish mods.. You have to be absolutely nucking futs to get to the Finnish line... -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Luther Gulseth wrote: And the ultimate would be a 124 coupe with OM603 w/Finnish mods.. Not if you wanted the engine to last for 250-300kmi!! Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
And the ultimate would be a 124 coupe with OM603 w/Finnish mods.. Luther Marshall Booth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Jim Cathey wrote: > >> I would expect the 126 w/turbodiesel to lose a drag race against > >> 123s and 116s. > > > > But not the 603-equipped SDL's, of course! They really do scoot. > > But a 124 with a 603.96 engine is faster yet! > > Marshall > -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (235kmi WVO/diesel mix) '82 300CD (160kmi) '82 300D (74kmi needs block or engine)
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
I would expect the 126 w/turbodiesel to lose a drag race against 123s and 116s. But not the 603-equipped SDL's, of course! They really do scoot. But a 124 with a 603.96 engine is faster yet! But is not a 116, 123, or 126. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Jim Cathey wrote: I would expect the 126 w/turbodiesel to lose a drag race against 123s and 116s. But not the 603-equipped SDL's, of course! They really do scoot. But a 124 with a 603.96 engine is faster yet! Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
I would expect the 126 w/turbodiesel to lose a drag race against 123s and 116s. But not the 603-equipped SDL's, of course! They really do scoot. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
On Jun 8, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Marshall Booth wrote: Lot's of people felt that the 617.950 engine in a 116 was faster than the 617.951 engine in a 126. Emissions requirements WERE different! Marshall I know my 79 300SD aka the $100 car gets up and goes better than any 300D, 300CD, 300TD or 81 and later 300SD I have driven. I have owned all the models listed, lots of them and driven many, many more. I never swapped an earlier turbo engine a la W116 300SD into a later 123 or 126 but gearing has to have some effect and I believe final drive ratios are not the same. Never ran the $100 car until it would go no faster but am willing to wager that it will not top out at the same speed as any turbo 123 in stock trim. Another observation I have made is that right out of the crate, without tweaking wastegate and ALDA a 123 turbodiesel from 82 will walk all over an 83,84 or 85. Post tweak I detect no difference at all. This scenario has been tested by your's truly over and over. Not being able to measure actual enrichment besides the tell-tale wisp of black smoke at high revs may not be too scientific but I strove to attain an even 12psi boost across the board. I would expect the 126 w/turbodiesel to lose a drag race against 123s and 116s. It just stands to reason that being a larger and heavier car it should. While I'm at it, in my opinion, nothing compares to how the station wagons with good front and rear suspension ease on down the road. All the coupes I've owned road harsher but cornered flatter and with greater ease. I love'em all. What was the question? Johnny B. I Mac Therefore I am
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Marshall Booth wrote: > Lot's of people felt that the 617.950 engine in a 116 was faster than > the 617.951 engine in a 126. Emissions requirements WERE different! > My '79 (small cam, no EGR) is very strong off the line but 0-60 isn't anything to get excited about. 1980s had the big cam and everybody I've talked to who owned one thought it quite fast for a 2 ton diesel. IIRC, all 617 and 616 got the big cam in 1980. The big cam came with new bearing towers, because the old bearing bores were smaller than the new cam lobes.
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
John Ervine wrote: Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the earlier AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by Garrett, but don't know that for fact. The different turbos had NO effect on power. All were able to deliver about double the boost required and power was limited by thermal considerations - NOT by turbo limitations! Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. Depends on who's measuring them and whether it's a DIN or SAE measurement. Mercedes isn't even always consistent in the figures THEY publish. I don't think that all of the block castings were identical, but I don't believe that's the most relevant difference. I'm pretty sure there were cam differences, but there may have been other small differences as well and they may not all be associated with the chassis model changes, but may have slowly come about over the course of production. The 950, 951 and 952 designations specifically relate to engines that were assembled to be installed in 116, 126 and 123 chassis cars respectively, but all 952 engines (or 950, or 951 for that matter) were NOT identical (although all engines with one model designation could usually be interchanged without much trouble)! Lot's of people felt that the 617.950 engine in a 116 was faster than the 617.951 engine in a 126. Emissions requirements WERE different! Marshall -- Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions) "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] '87 300TD 182Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 turbo 237kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi (retired)
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
The part numbers are the same, I have pulled many off 116 engines and put them on 123/126 versions. In fact, I once replaced a KKK version in a 84 300SD with a garrett from a 116 for a customer, then turned around and sold their bad one on ebay for $80. It was insane. Steve MacSween wrote: I had read previously this was not the case, but yes a friend of mine just put a w116 turbo onto his w126 and it was a complete walk in the park. Mac on 6/8/06 12:06 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The turbos are interchangable from the older engines to the newer ones. As far as I can tell, they are identical. John Ervine wrote: Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the earlier AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by Garrett, but don't know that for fact. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Cam, ip is setup a little different, probably emissions maybe. Luther Gulseth wrote: Ok, so if the displacement is the same, what caused the 10HP increase from .950 to .951/2? "Kaleb C. Striplin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: Here are the differences, which I mentioned before, linkage, oil pan, ac stuff, glow plug system, wiring, vacuum pump etc, motor mount arms, exhaust hookup might be different, not sure. Then the hp is lower. Thats all I can think of at the moment. Tranny is different of course. Oil cooler lines are different, tranny lines are probably different. It will work you will just have to swap everything over from the old motor. -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
I had read previously this was not the case, but yes a friend of mine just put a w116 turbo onto his w126 and it was a complete walk in the park. Mac on 6/8/06 12:06 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The turbos are interchangable from the older engines to the newer ones. > As far as I can tell, they are identical. > > John Ervine wrote: > >> Luther Gulseth wrote: >> >>> 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If >>> stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the >>> HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. >> >> >> In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the >> earlier >> AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by >> Garrett, >> but don't know that for fact. >>
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
FWIW My 1980 300SD (MY '80, Build date 10/79) has a Garrett Turbo (original equip) still running strong. Chuck Phoenix AZ On Jun 8, 2006, at 8:55 AM, John Ervine wrote: Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the earlier AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by Garrett, but don't know that for fact. -- John L. Ervine 1981 240D 4-spd 270+kmi 1980 300TD 180+kmi 1980 300SD 277+kmi 1977 280S 4-spd 81+kmi 1976 350SE 4-spd 163+kmi 1972 220 278+kmi ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Ok, so if the displacement is the same, what caused the 10HP increase from .950 to .951/2? "Kaleb C. Striplin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Here are the differences, which I mentioned before, linkage, oil pan, ac > stuff, glow plug system, wiring, vacuum pump etc, motor mount arms, > exhaust hookup might be different, not sure. Then the hp is lower. > Thats all I can think of at the moment. Tranny is different of course. > Oil cooler lines are different, tranny lines are probably different. > It will work you will just have to swap everything over from the old motor. > -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (235kmi WVO/diesel mix) '82 300CD (160kmi) '82 300D (74kmi needs block or engine)
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Ok, the cam, oil pan, turbo, obvious mountings onto the engine are different. Can "accessories" from the .951/2 mount up to the .950? John Ervine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Luther Gulseth wrote: > > > > 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If > > stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the > > HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. > > In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the earlier > AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by Garrett, > but don't know that for fact. > > -- > John L. Ervine > 1981 240D 4-spd 270+kmi > 1980 300TD 180+kmi > 1980 300SD 277+kmi > 1977 280S 4-spd 81+kmi > 1976 350SE 4-spd 163+kmi > 1972 220 278+kmi > -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (235kmi WVO/diesel mix) '82 300CD (160kmi) '82 300D (74kmi needs block or engine)
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
I agree - both turbos spin up until the wastegate is open. Could be cam, IP or compression ratio changes. Tom Hargrave Quoting "Kaleb C. Striplin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > The turbos are interchangable from the older engines to the newer ones. > > As far as I can tell, they are identical. > > John Ervine wrote: > > > Luther Gulseth wrote: > > > >>617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If > >>stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased > the > >>HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. > > > > > > In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used > the earlier > > AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by > Garrett, > > but don't know that for fact. > > > > -- > Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK > 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, > 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, > 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 > http://www.striplin.net > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ > For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > Thanks, Tom Hargrave 256-656-1924
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Here are the differences, which I mentioned before, linkage, oil pan, ac stuff, glow plug system, wiring, vacuum pump etc, motor mount arms, exhaust hookup might be different, not sure. Then the hp is lower. Thats all I can think of at the moment. Tranny is different of course. Oil cooler lines are different, tranny lines are probably different. It will work you will just have to swap everything over from the old motor. Steve MacSween wrote: Another $0.02, would be that the w116s (exception: some 1980s that apparently delivered with w126 motor setups, or maybe it was only CA-spec cars) have different plumbing for the vacuum pump. IIRC we had some fun with this on my w126->w116 swap, in addition to what Berryman mentioned. Also the oil cooler lines are different. Mac on 6/8/06 11:55 AM, John Ervine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the earlier AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by Garrett, but don't know that for fact. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Another $0.02, would be that the w116s (exception: some 1980s that apparently delivered with w126 motor setups, or maybe it was only CA-spec cars) have different plumbing for the vacuum pump. IIRC we had some fun with this on my w126->w116 swap, in addition to what Berryman mentioned. Also the oil cooler lines are different. Mac on 6/8/06 11:55 AM, John Ervine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Luther Gulseth wrote: >> >> 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If >> stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the >> HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. > > In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the > earlier > AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by > Garrett, > but don't know that for fact.
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
The turbos are interchangable from the older engines to the newer ones. As far as I can tell, they are identical. John Ervine wrote: Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the earlier AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by Garrett, but don't know that for fact. -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. In addition to what has already been mentioned, the w116 300SDs used the earlier AirResearch turbo units. I believe AirResearch was later purchased by Garrett, but don't know that for fact. -- John L. Ervine 1981 240D 4-spd 270+kmi 1980 300TD 180+kmi 1980 300SD 277+kmi 1977 280S 4-spd 81+kmi 1976 350SE 4-spd 163+kmi 1972 220 278+kmi
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
On Jun 8, 2006, at 11:29 AM, Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. For one the cams are different and possible upper oil pan differences, on the 950. I wanna say .951=300D-CD 952=300SD with different mount brackets and oil pump housing. 951&952 are interchangeable noting the items mentioned above. The engine I mentioned to you is a 952 adapted for 300D. Johnny B. I Mac Therefore I am
Re: [MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
Actually not sure where your figures come from but its 110 for the 116 version and 120 for the 123/126 81-84 and either 123 or 125 for the 85 version. Luther Gulseth wrote: 617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 87 420SEL, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE, 85 300D, 84 190D 2.2, 83 300TD, 81 300TD, 81 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 74 240D, 73 280SEL 4.5, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.striplin.net
[MBZ] 617.950 617.952 differences
617.950 is listed at 115HP and the .951/2 are 123/125HP. If stroke/displacement are the same, what did they change that increased the HP? Are the shortblocks identical? TIA all. -- Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark '83 300SD (235kmi WVO/diesel mix) '82 300CD (160kmi) '82 300D (74kmi needs block or engine)
