Isn't this the key to the whole MOQ thing? Too many get caught up in the
good/bad dicotomy and end up on the hamster wheel of time. I don't know if
you realize it, but this is exactly what Mark has been talking about for
some time now. It's all about the lens through which you view
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: MoQ moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 4:58 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] social engagement
Greetings Mark and all,
I would like to say a few more words about this lecture because I want
everyone to watch it for
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] pure experience (DQ)
On Jul 9, 2012, at 4:33 AM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net wrote:
dmb,
Not the quote or the article even used the word
dmb,
Not the quote or the article even used the word 'undifferentiated' except
the Zen quote that you presented associating it with nirvana. I take
'undifferentiate' to mean lacking difference or distinction. My
statement still stands that if Dynamic Quality is undifferentiated, it
cannot
The real question is that if they HAVE discovered the Higgs Boson, and the
subsequent Higgs field, does that falsify Michaelson-Morley?
- Original Message -
From: Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [MD]
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The hard answer.
Hi Carl,
First a clarification. My Ph.D is in biotechnology. I dropped out of
the brain sciences because I went over the
This has been interesting. I posted the original question, i.e. How does
consciousness arise from inorganic material, and the responses have been
increasingly diverse. While there has been a bit of topic drift, which is to
be expected, I have come to the conclusion that most responders are
I don't know how it came up, but recently I stumbled across what's known as
The Hard Question about consciousness. Specifically, that question is how
consciousness arises from inorganic material. Our brains and bodies are
made up of chemicals, etc. and yet from those inert chemicals we get
- Original Message -
From: Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Creative Freedom in Jazz
Dan:
See... the rules are the ideas whereas using those rules allows the
artist to express their ideas. I don't
Carl:
I agree with you. I think he's talking about the expression of the idea,
rather than the idea though. In visual art, there are rules about
composition, etc. (even Piccaso had to stick with the basics; i.e. a nose
is
a nose is a nose, even when it's stuck to a kneecap) and in writing
- Original Message -
From: Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Creative Freedom in Jazz
Hello everyone
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net
wrote:
Dan:
Well, possibly
Dan:
Well, possibly... but I'm not sure you're taking this part into account:
“It’s very important to remember,” Evans says, “that no matter how far
I might diverge or find freedom in this format, it only is free
insofar as it has reference to the strictness of the original form.
And that’s
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Insanity
Hi Carl,
My take is pretty similar to yours about Phaedrus and Lila. What I
present below is my opinion, and does not reflect the
It's been a while since I read Lila, so I didn't grasp the term Cleveland
Harbor Effect when you used it. I did a search on it, and came up with:
http://www.quantonics.com/Pirsigs_Lila_Quotes_on_Insanity.html
This essay addresses many parts of this message. I'm going to have to read
it a
Interesting link to discussions. Mark?
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Okay, one more time, only this time I'll actually include the link:
http://chronicle.com/article/Is-Free-Will-an-Illusion-/131159/
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- Original Message -
From: Michael R. Brown m...@fuguewriter.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:22 PM
Subject: [MD] Aymara - already posted perhaps?
Tell an old Aymara speaker to face the past! and you just might get a
blank stare in return – because he
In particular, when she is talking about the music being out there and
wanting to be the one who receives it.
http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2012/time-traveler/video-cash_interview.shtml
The interview is just over an hour long, but if you know of anyone who wants
to be involved in a
Got it here.
- Original Message -
From: X Acto xa...@rocketmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 3:14 PM
Subject: [MD] hello?
On Mar 11, 2012, at 1:18 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello everyone
On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 8:33 PM, MarshaV
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The dirty doors of perception?
Hi Carl,
Some stuff snipped below, and left in the archives.
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Carl Thames
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] aggregates of grasping
Carl:
Do you think they're quantum based?
Quality can explain them all.
Carl:
How?
Mark:
For me quantum reality
Mark:
The statements are just statements. What is important is what they
represent in terms of Quality. Have you read his books with that in
mind? Why would he say that intellectual thought began about 3000
years ago? Have you thought this through or are you still on a
superficial read of
LOL!
Carl
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] First Division 2.0
No!
Mark
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 2:51 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
Of course, to say that life is just a
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] aggregates of grasping
Mark:
There are senses outside the 5 senses, but they are not as obvious,
and are not direct chemical, pressure, or
Mark:
I also have an additional sense to give you. I call it proprioception.
It is much more than that which dancers expound on. What I am referring
to is that sense we all have not only in terms of our bodies, but in
placing ourselves in the immediate environment and in this existence as a
Mark:
Yes, I agree with dmb, if I am interpreting correctly what he is
writing. Reality is not invented, it is realized in a manner which we
humans find useful. We are simply interpreters of the given. If
somebody interprets Spanish into English, this does not mean that the
English is not
doing it, right?
On 2/7/12, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net wrote:
Carl:
Well, last night the regular guest didn't show up for whatever reason on
Coast to Coast, so they called in a substitute. Do you want to guess
what
his topic was? Yep. Synchronicity. Seriously. I couldn't make
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics and the mystic.
Carl:
The way synchronicity normally appears to me is I'll get on a subject,
usually something I don't normally work
.
On 2/2/12, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net wrote:
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics and the mystic.
Hi Carl,
Thank you for your post, this could be interesting
to the options given will depend
on a lot of variables, such as previous experience, knowledge,
acculturation, and others, INCLUDING how we decide to react, which may be in
direct contradiction to everything we've previously learned.
So, on to your comments...
On 1/31/12, Carl Thames ctha
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics and the mystic.
Hi Guys,
Hot of the Press!!
Science 27 January 2012:
Vol. 335 no. 6067 pp. 415-416
Another Remembered Present
by
- Original Message -
From: Tuukka Virtaperko m...@tuukkavirtaperko.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] SOPA and PIPA
Mark, Horse
Mark to Horse:
I understand your position as a musician.
Tuukka:
I'm also an artist. But I
- Original Message -
From: Tuukka Virtaperko m...@tuukkavirtaperko.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] SOPA and PIPA
Tuukka:
in addition, I have already published a work, and it's on sale. But it's
in Finnish. And I didn't
I'm a bit curious about this whole evolution thing. I'm familiar with the
concept expressed by Darwin, wherein Individual A is born with the gene for
a longer femur, which allows him or her to chase down food better than
his/her contemporaries, thereby allowing him or her to surivive longer
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Psychology and Philosophy
Hi Carl,
Happy New Year!
First of all, congrats on getting back into school. We are about the
same age, I will be 56
.
- Original Message -
From: Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Psychology and Philosophy
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, January
with
that? I know. Never mind. I told someone yesterday that if I could find
someone to pay for it, I would probably be in school for the rest of my
life. I enjoy learning.
So, on to your comments...
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net
wrote:
Carl:
To begin, I
Part Deux:
Mark:
Psychology is a paradigm which is extremely popular these days, since
it claims to depict our very being. It can be useful, but I also find
it very confining. A big trend is evolutionary psychology. That is,
using evolution to describe why we do the things we do. I find
Part 3:
Mark:
So, monism is interesting, but I believe it leads to determinism.
Free will requires an entity (such as ourselves) that is separate and
distinct from other things.
Carl:
The problem with that is that we can't exist as separate and distinct
beings. Do you see what I'm saying
Part 4:
Mark:
Yes, the laws of gravity are a concept. It is a structure in which we
interpret what we consider to be real. The concept itself is
invented, but this does not mean that the data used to create
gravity did not exist prior to its conceptualization. We must not
confuse the
Part 5:
Mark:
What you call Pirsig's objections would be of similar nature to the
objections that psychology would have with Pirsig's model. The
question would be: Which interpretation of reality is most useful for
you? Certainly psychology has its uses, especially in the medical
field.
eclectic and enjoy mixing some of my learning
through the years with some of those here. What I present is always a
work in progress.
So, on to your comments...
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net
wrote:
Carl:
To begin, I appologize for taking so long
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Relativism, a definition
Hello Carl,
Marsha:
I can't really say. I tried very hard to get the Hindu philosophy. I
read Patanjali so many
Marsha, quick question: What do you think of the MoQ as a distillation of
Hinduism? I know Buddhist philosophy started there, how about the MoQ?
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: MoQ moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: [MD]
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] NYC
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 29, 2011, at 10:19 PM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net
wrote:
Marsha:
Perhaps we have never been to NYC. We
, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net
wrote:
Hi, Mark,
To begin, I think you may have inadvertantly hit on a very important
aspect
of MoQ in this post. Specifically, what the heck are we talking about.
Consider the first two paragraphs of the definition of psychology in
Wikipedia:
Psychology
Marsha:
Perhaps we have never been to NYC. We can study all about NYC, look at
photographs, read the history, and learn a tremendous amount about NYC
from books. Far more than the people who live and/or work in NYC know. We
can be experts. But, when we board an airplane and fly to NYC, there is
Marsha:
Perhaps we have never been to NYC. We can study all about NYC, look at
photographs, read the history, and learn a tremendous amount about NYC
from books. Far more than the people who live and/or work in NYC know. We
can be experts. But, when we board an airplane and fly to NYC, there is
(a la James, for example)
into MoQ, I am curious about the motivation and the benefits.
Cheers,
Mark
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 12:15 PM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net
wrote:
I seem to have the ability to kill threads, which is not my intent. I do
ask questions, and consider Beats the hell
I seem to have the ability to kill threads, which is not my intent. I do
ask questions, and consider Beats the hell out of me as an appropriate
response. I'm fully aware that a fool can ask a question that a thousand
wise men cannot answer. Having said that, (I am NOT casting myself in the
Hi, Mark. Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to this. Wrapping up a
semester and all.
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Comparing
Hi Carl,
Thanks for your post, and yes, I
- Original Message -
From: Steven Peterson peterson.st...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Realism and anti-realism
Steve:
Our descriptions of reality are always descriptions made for a
purpose. When the realist or
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The Relativist's journey
So, let me ask you a different question:
What is it deep down inside you (and possibly many others) that causes
you
- Original Message -
From: david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The Color of Perception
Dan, Carl and all MOQERS:
Hello, and thank you.
Carl said:
...Like Don's dog dish, the concept of
- Original Message -
From: david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The Color of Perception
Now the question is, what is the difference between direct experience and
abstract knowledge? What does
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Taking off the glasses?
On Nov 14, 2011, at 8:12 PM, david buchanan wrote:
Wiki says, Reification (also known as concretism, or the fallacy of
Marsha:
While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism
recently out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and
published by Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows
the similarities, between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any
Marsha:
The Dynamic Quality viewpoint of the MOQ corresponds to the notion of
sunyata or nothingness [50] as understood by Nagarjuna (a Mahayana
Buddhist philosopher) while the static quality viewpoint (sammuti-sacca)
[52] of the MOQ corresponds to sunyavada (i.e. the conditioned component
or
Marsha:
Can you consider this when discussing empirical reasons:
Philosophers and scientists have long recognized the illusory nature of
perceptual appearance. When we observe the world around us, we see images,
such as shapes and colors, that lack physical attributes. The visual
image of
Hello Carl,
Hello, Marsha. I sincerely hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you.
Your posts are usually shorter, more to the point, and I feel more
comfortable replying to them.
On Nov 22, 2011, at 4:43 AM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net wrote:
- Original Message
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The Color of Perception
Hello Carl,
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 22, 2011, at 5:33 AM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net wrote:
Marsha:
Can you
- Original Message -
From: Ham Priday hampd...@verizon.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Morality and Prudence
Hi again, Joe --
On Saturday, 8/27/11 7:50 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote:
Hi Ham and all,
I will ask
DMB said:
The psychopathic Brujo? No way. I mean, psychopathology is a
serious mental illness that precludes morality whereas the culture
bearers are extraordinarily moral.
Matt:
I don't see why no way. I thought it was Pirsig's point that we need
a new, finer-grained understanding of insanity
DMB said:
...If we comply simply to avoid punishment, that is not morality at all.
It's merely fear-driven obedience, coerced compliance. This is how
most psychopaths stay out of jail. They will avoid murder because it
puts them at risk of going to jail. It's not because THEY think it's
morally
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The kind of will that is free
Hi Carl,
On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 5:51 AM, Carl Thames ctha...@centurytel.net
wrote:
[Mark prev]
Hi John,
Yes
- Original Message -
From: 118 ununocti...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The kind of will that is free
Hi John,
Yes, I agree. The rhetorical value is in sharing it in order to bring
about mutual agreement so that
Hi Dan,
Then you changed the subject, because I was speaking of the illusion
of the ME, the Cartesian Me having 'freewill and making choices.
I will expand my former statement, the preferences of the biological
static
patterns of value are further shaped by social static patterns of value
Okay, I've read probably a thousand messages, and still have another thousand
to go before I catch up completely, but I've got a nagging questions that's
bugging me. I have read both ZAMM and Lila, and still have the question.
Specifically: I think I understand Pirsig's concept of quality.
Thanks for answering. At what point does the meta apply? That's the
heart of the question, I think. Doesn't metaphysics of quality then
become nonsensical? It either has a quality or it doesn't. Maybe I'm
drawing too fine a line here, but I don't see the distinction.
- Original
- Original Message -
From: Jan-Anders janander...@telia.com
To: moq_discuss@lists.moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] chariotness
Hi Carl
I think it is well described in Lila the first part. Science, physics and
chemistry, is positively exact about
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] chariotness
Greetings Carl,
The chariot simile is very widely referenced and I thought added a
different perspective. Metaphysics, to me, means
- Original Message -
From: MarshaV val...@att.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] chariotness
Greetings,
I do not have access to television or cable programming. I am sorry for
the use of the phrase mental illness. A
- Original Message -
From: Platt Holden platthol...@gmail.com
To: MOQ Discuss moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:51 AM
Subject: [MD] Kung Fu and the MOQ
All:
Today's NY Times contains an article entitled Kung Fu for Philosophers.
It
describes a worldview
- Original Message -
From: Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] British Emergentism
Platt to Andre:
What I meant by transconceptual is knowledge beyond definition,
beyond words,
Please ignore this. I'm checking to see if it gets bounced back to me.
This list, and another one has been pretty wonky lately, and I'm trying to
find out if it's on my end. Thanks.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
- Original Message -
From: Woods Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] opposition to zeitgeist
Carl:
I watched the movie, and was with them until they got to the part about
technology saving us. It didn't really hit
- Original Message -
From: Woods Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] opposition to zeitgeist
Ian:
Here's what I did say about zeitgeist.
http://www.psybertron.org/?p=1439
woods:
Alright. I thought you were
[Chris]
Should be. I am a zennie after all, I should agree on this. still, I
believe
that DQ becomes static as soon as you experience it. Luckily each moment
is
new.
Breathtaking beauty
beheld in a passing glance
once captured is lost
Is this what you mean?
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