Hello everyone
Rich Pretti wrote:
I have a couple of questions (per usual)...
1) Quality is equated with "pure", immediate experience many times.
This, among other things it is said to be the essence of.
Do you agree that the formula:
Quality = Experience
is correct?
Hello everyone
Rich Pretti wrote:
Hi Glove et al,
Thanks for the very illuminating responses to my queries. I have little
worth adding to your very good explanations but for these thoughts:
Could we then say that mind-matter is equal to value?
Yes, exactly. That is why the quote from ZMM
Hello everyone
Dave Buchanan wrote:
All moqers: I'm not sure if "human nature" is the right thread name.
What I really want to discuss is the explanatory power of the MOQ. There
are so many powerful and relevant quotes in the posts lately. I hope we
can gather them up and work it out before
Hello everyone
I've been reading with interest the "Pirsig on human nature" string and
would like to explore a couple thoughts. Ken Clark writes of the Big Bang
theory as the origin of Quality... I would like to remind everyone that the
Big Bang is merely one theory of several that purport to
Hello everyone
I've been out the last couple days breaking in my '78 Goldwing that my
brother, my son and I rebuilt over the winter. I took much inspiration for
the doing of the project from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
None of us had ever torn apart something that complex and
Hello everyone
Rich Pretti wrote:
Rog put forth this vision into the Void:
Rich:
What is consciousness? We must explain it within the MOQ.
Roger:
Consciousness per William James is one half of the duality that we create
out
of Direct Experience. Objective reality is the other half. James
Hello everyone
DRobi wrote:
(Following the comments of Glove)
I am new to this arena of thought so forgive me if I reiterate or repeat
ideas or statements which have been spoken before. As I understand from
Pirsigs philosophy, reason seems to be synonymous with quality, so the
question what
Hello everyone
Thank you to all the contributors... in my opinion the Quality of the posts
here has been very high.
Mary writes:
pg 179: "Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic nature. They
originate out of society ... what a mind thinks is as dominated by social
patterns as
ROGER TRIES TO RESTATE THE ISSUES BEFORE
WE ALL GET LOST IN A PILE OF CUT'N'PASTES
AND ENDS WITH A MYSTICAL TWIST
Glove, Platt, Mary, Ken, Walter and Rich:
I have tried to summarize the salient points from the past few days. Let
me
know what I have missed, but sometimes all the overpasting
MYSTIC ROGER CONTINUES TO ENJOY THE EXPERIENCE
To Glove, Platt, Mary and Ken, the Walter's old and new, and Rich who needs
to get his butt back in here to help defend me. :-)
I shall again rephrase the issues:
Pirsig wrote:"These patterns can't by themselves perceive or adjust to
Dynamic
Hello everyone
Bill wrote:
Hello ,
I've been reading along...I snip this bit from Clark because it filled
me with questions:
"Do we split a perfectly evolved moral molecule and use its parts to make
a bomb to kill about 130,000 people with two bombs? We did it and called it
moral because not
Hello everyone
Walter Balestra wrote:
Platt, Glove, Ken and Group:
Glove wrote:
So what is the reason for reason? Reason is a way for us to be
comfortable.
We tell ourselves that we know how the universe began... we even
calculate
to the microsecond what occurred at the beginning of the
Hello everyone
Horse wrote:
Hi All
On 27 Jun 99, at 14:42, David Buchanan wrote:
Please forgive me for "scolding" you in such an arrogant manner, but I
was very disappointed and disgusted, downright angry in fact, to read
such views here. Someone PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one
., Quantonics (an amalgam of MoQ
and quantum science with slivers of memes from our Recommended Reading list,
your comments, Hugo's prescient thoughts, et al.). (Email from Doug Renselle
to Dan Glover - 7/1/99)
Glove:
I fully agree with Doug that these are key axioms to keep in mind in dealing
Hello everyone
Platt wrote:
Hi Glove,
Thanks for passing along Doug Renselles ontological axioms.
Basically I agree with them, but I have a few observations and
questions.
1. Primal or proemial creation in no way depends on man or any
other sentient.
If this refers to creation of the
Hello everyone
Doug's axioms are not meant to be MOQ axioms, per se. Doug and myself have
some key areas of disagreement and the axioms speak to me differently than
to him. With that in mind I will continue...
Platt wrote:
Hi Glove, David B. and Group:
Thanks Glove for your comments about
Hello everyone
John Beasley wrote:
What follows was composed as a response to the discussion of self and soul
in the MOQ in
the LS forum, but rejected as being off the topic. I am sufficiently
intrigued by Julian Jaynes
exploration of the emergence of the notion of soul in Greek thought, which
Hello everyone
Horse wrote:
A message to all those who have very little respect for the LS
members who don't subscribe to MD.
Hi Horse
First let me say I have the utmost respect for all those who belong to
either or both of the discussion groups here. If one does not subscribe both
the LS
Hello everyone
Long time no write!
I came across John Beasley's "Creating an Organismic Metaphysics of Quality"
yesterday while browsing moq_discuss and read it over several times before
coming back today and re reading. Having some free time now, I have several
comments I'd like to share;
Hello everyone
Platt wrote:
Hi Avid, Roger, Ian and group:
Since Avid has brought up the subject of Art and the MOQ I'd like to
throw in my 2 cents.
Hi Platt
So would I! So here it is...
Platt:
Avids Fusion Theory of Art may be helpful to some. But, for me it's
far too complicated and, if
Avid:
Thank you Dan to share this too. The explanation to small children goes to
how to use things [I can give you such simple explanation] but not regarding
to the structure or construction of things. Will you drive a car constructed
by children [average non genius children]?
I didn't think so.
Try to read my post more carefully, maybe you'll be more graceful, or maybe
try to write in Hebrew and see how you come across
and don't forget to be gentle
Avid
icq 6598359
Hi Avid
Yes you are right. We must all remember our words are always subject to
misinterpretation and that while we are
Dan:
Actually I seemed to have opened it further! Sometimes we just have to
muddle around awhile before we find our own level. If my writings inspire
your own in some small way then I feel they are worthwhile.
Avid:
I try to make it my approach, to treat a matter as "unclearified yet", or
Hello everyone
John Beasley writes:
Dan. I am not sure that I understand what you are saying, especially
relating to
complementarity, which I will have to catch up on some time.
Hi John
I'm not sure I understand either. :)
John:
As to your concern with
polarities, and that negative may not
Hello everyone
DMB wrote:
An old Russian scholar once told me that if a person reads all of
Dostoevsky's novels they don't need a bible.
Hi David
Here's our problem: we are all like that old Russian scholar as long as
we stay locked into our comfortable intellectual patterns of value.
Hello everyone
jc wrote:
What if there were enough people who understood Pirsig's work to start a
Quality Party? Who don't care about right or left but what is best.
Hi jc
Have you given consideration to what boards might be used in such a
Quality Party platform? How can Quality be used to
Hello everyone
David Buchanan wrote:
Dan: I agree with the idea that we ought not limited our selves to any
one book. I was making a totally different point about how much
intellectual quality there can be in novels. That was the Russian
scholar's point too. He was talking about the vast
David L Thomas wrote:
Mder's
[snip]
So it would seem that the search in the focus group for the "5th level" is
misguided inasmuch as somewhere just beyond normal mortal intellect lies the
realm of unpatterned dynamic moral values which has the moral authority to
dominant our existence.
David L Thomas wrote:
Dan
Agreed. Timothy didn't get it done, so I guess it's Robert's turn.
Hi Dave
Dr. Tim serves notice of what dangers lurk in indulgence. He wanted to
tune in, turn on and drop out. Hedonism is inevitable. There must be
balance. Where is Quality in giving teenagers
David Buchanan wrote:
DLT, Dan and all moqers:
Bet you a buck Truman prayed about the decision to drop the bomb. It's
not the same as consulting DQ, whatever that might mean, but I think
there is a universal instinct to gaze upward at great moments, if you
know what I mean.
If
David Buchanan wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Dan Glover [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 11:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD Dropping things
Hi Dave
In modern warfare, means justify ends. In as much as Truman was faced
David Lind wrote:
I still think you're confusing morality with dynamic. I think there
are dynamic choices that are immoral. I think the shooting spree i
dynamic, but immoral.
Hi David
And how about an asteroid crashing into earth? Is that Dynamic? Is it
immoral? How do a shooting spree
David Lind wrote:
Dan Glover wrote:
David Lind wrote:
I still think you're confusing morality with dynamic. I think there
are dynamic choices that are immoral. I think the shooting spree i
dynamic, but immoral.
Hi David
And how about an asteroid crashing into earth
Hello everyone
Platt Holden wrote:
So what moral compass do you go by? What moral compass will
you teach your children to follow? And how will you justify it?
Those are the questions we must address if, like Pirsig, we want to
inquire into morals.
Hi Platt
It seems to me that since
Hello everyone
David Lind wrote:
Dan Glover wrote:
It seems to me that since Pirsig's MOQ states that Universe is
fundamentally moral and value-centered
there is no need for justification. Must we continually justify our
moral actions when all actions are moral?
Ummm...I don't
Hello everyone
David Buchanan wrote:
Robert Pirsig wrote:
"In general, given a choice of two courses to follow and all other
things being equal. that choice which is more dynamic, that is, at a
higher level of evolution is more moral."
Dan Glover wrote:
"It seems t
Hello everyone
rich pretti wrote:
To whom it may concern:
I have isolated 7 distinct statements of predication in the moq. By
"predicate" I mean an essential feature, or pattern of value, of the moq. As
of now I see these:
1 - Quality is Reality
2 - Quality is Morality
3 - Quality
Hello everyone
Jonathan Marder wrote:
Hello everyone especially Platt, Glove, David B., Clark, Walter and whoever
else ...
XACTO
Please respond to the above if you wish to go further (No one seems to
think
I have anything worthwhile to say anyway).
Jonathan:
Tell me about it ...
Hello everyone
I used to be a regular contributor to the discussion group and many of
the older members may remember me as glove. I have always been a ardent
reader of the archives and last winter, at the urging of Bodvar, I put
together a book called Lila's Child; An Inquiry into Quality, which
Hello everyone
I don't know if everyone has read the new moq.org link:
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/06/04/stifgnusa01007.html
but the findings pose serious challenges to how we currently view
Universe. First, space and time are no longer united as Albert Einstein
declared
Marco wrote:
Hi Dan
experiments did not measure what we thought they
measured, but rather only measured the instruments themselves.
Stronger than the Eisenberg principle.
Thanks
Marco
Hi Marco
Exactly! The problem of measurement is tied to the uncertainty principle
and the
Hello everyone
Mark Butler wrote:
Hi Richard,
I'm looking forward to
getting my teeth into 'The Sceptic', a chapter of Dan Glover's 'Lila's
Child' which centers on Struan Hellier's opposition to the MOQ:
http://members.tripod.com/~Glove_r/Child15.htm
Hi Mark
In my opinion, one of
Hello everyone
Peter Lennox wrote:
Thanks for posting that.
It seems at first glance to fit rather well with a theory I use when trying
to investigate "perception"; namely that (as a methodological convenience) I
hypothesise that the basic 'stuff' of the universe is not matter, energy or
Another web site related to the discussion:
http://shadrach.cns.nyu.edu/~carlos/Organism/index.html
and if you're really sharp you might even win some money!
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To
Hello everyone
Struan Hellier wrote:
Dan, Dan! What have you done bringing that to my attention? You should know
that I can't bear to read such nonsense without replying to it. Ah well,
what better way to spend an hour on the train?
Hi Struan
I always enjoy reading the well thought out
Hello everyone
Richard Budd wrote:
As for Struan, his critique is (unfortunately) right on the money. Aside
from the brief reference to harmony, Pirsig adds no additional support for
the propostion that Quality=Reality. The issue he does address resolves
itself pretty easily... After
I'd spent all winter and spring tearing the bike down and rebuilding it
completely. As the guy who bought it from me rode away on it suddenly
the pile of money in my hand did not seem near big enough...
David Lind wrote:
The recent discussions about money brought a memory to mind. I
collect
Hello everyone
Platt Holden wrote:
Hi Rick, Dan and All:
DAN:
"To answer your question, yes, I have met those who
would deny some things are better than others.
Everyone, as a matter of fact.
RICK:
EVERYONE would deny that somethings are better than
others??? That's
Hello everyone
Richard Budd wrote:
Dan:
RICK:
I believe (like Struan) that Pirsig asked one very
important question (What evidence do we have that Quality=Reality?) and
answered another rather innocuous question (What evidence do we have
that
value is real?).
DAN:
Now it
Hello everyone
Richard Budd wrote:
Hey Dan,
RICK:
Very tricky indeed Dan "value(Quality) is (equals) real
(reality)".
You have equivocated between "real" and "reality". Let me explain...
When I
ask if Santa Claus is real I am not asking if Santa Claus = Reality.
Hello everyone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
ROGER JUMPS IN ON MEMES
Hi Dan!
I have been a long proponent that the theory of memetic evolution ties in
exceptionally well with the MOQ's social evolution. Please let me take a
hand at answering your questions. First, let me offer a cut
Hello everyone
Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
And I don 't think you should equate memes with patterns of value, though.
Hi Kenneth
Thank you for your reply.
Phaedrus writes:
"If you construct an encyclopedia of four topics -- Inorganic,
Biological, Social and Intellectual -- nothing is left out.
Hello everyone
Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
And why must we keep DQ concept free !? I don 't understand !
May DQ not be driven by some kind of biological/ evolutionary/...etc
motor...!?
That sounds like some God to me...
Hi Kenneth
Your question goes straight to the heart of the MOQ and of
Hello everyone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 11/20/00 7:11:26
PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Your
question goes straight to the heart of the MOQ and of Niels Bohr's
framework of complementarity. We might say Dynamic Quality
is the
evolutionary motor yet one
Hello everyone
"Jonathan B. Marder" wrote:
Hi Dan, Roger and all
I'm enjoying your exchange - thanks for the invitation to participate.
Hi Jonathan
Thanks for responding!
ROGER
When genetic patterns replicate, how true do
they have to be to be considered a copy?
And is there any
Hello everyone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
ROGER TO DAN AND JONATHAN
JONATHAN:
I
think this reinforces my point that it is all a question of
definition. Your corporation REDEFINED what was considered
to be the
president's legitimate signature (presumably with the
consent of the
president himself).
Hello everyone
Richard Edgar wrote:
Hi everyone
Dan
Thanks for forwarding your mail to me, I found your reply extremely interesting and
thought provoking, I just hope I can do the same in this reply!
Dan Glover wrote:
Be that as it may, the role of individual vs. society is very
Hello everyone
Richard Edgar wrote:
Hi Dan
Hi everyone
Dan wrote:
It would seem to depend on the situation. Letting intellectuals run
loose is very dangerous for a society and so in totalitarian regimes
they are often times locked away or exiled. So it's not that intellect
ignores
Hello everyone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
ROG SHARES YEARS OF COMMONLY ACCEPTED MORAL SHORTCOMINGS AS
IDENTIFIED IN THE MOQ
So, what is missing in the MOQ? Two things. The first is that the
levels need
to be better defined. The second problem is that Pirsig seems to
assume a
zero-sum
Hello everyone
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
ROG JUMPS IN WITH DAN AND RICHARD
Sorry guys, but I HAVE to jump in.
Hi Roger
Oh no problem! Glad for the input.
1) First, could you all define your terms? What exactly is society and
what
is intellect? Be specific. I do not see that the two
Hi Roger
Good to hear from you! Well, I am hoping to publish some day but it seems
like the closer I get the further away it seems. You cannot believe the time
I had getting the manuscript to the point it is now...to the point where I
at least felt semi-comfortable sending it to Robert
Hello everyone
Original Message Follows
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD An Introduction to the Metaphysics of Quality
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 08:18:39 EDT
To: Dan , Diana, Jonathan, Elephant and MOQ
FROM: Rog
Sorry Diana, I did
unsubscribe moq_discuss
_
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To
Thank you all who have supported LC. Diana, please remove the link to my
website immediately from your site. LC will no longer be available for
viewing. Those interested in the old posts will have to read the archives. I
am having trouble accessing my site but as soon as I can I am going to
Hello everyone
As most of you know I unsubscribed incorrectly in my frustration of last
night but I take solace in that at least I am not alone in doing so. This
morning I woke to find messages still coming in from the discussion group so
I am still here.
From: marco[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hello everyone
From: Thracian Bard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD Dialogue
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:27:57 -0500
Dear Colleagues,
Rog writes:
Seek not that which is comfortable, but that which is best, and be aware
that
that which is best
Hello everyone
To Joel and The MD
From Rog
*DIALOGUE*
JOEL WROTE:
The solution? Ironically it goes along with this month's theme (I believe)
in the moderated list: The crux of this crisis involves coming to the
point of realizing, 'I am not my point of view.' I have a point of
PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD True Libertarians Please Stand Up
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:08:10 +0200
Andrea, Gerhard, Platt, Dan, Libertarians
about the right to bear arms once Dan Glover wrote:
As far as other freedoms one of our basic rights
Hello everyone
From: Jonathan B. Marder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD True Libertarians Please Stand Up
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:33:25 +0300
Hi Libertarians,
Thanks to those who explained that the right to bear arms guaranteed by
the
U.S.
Hello everyone
From: Jonathan B. Marder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: MD The right to bear arms
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:41:52 +0300
Hello libertarians and peace lovers,
Dan, thanks for the useful history lesson. I didn't know the precise
Hello everyone
From: Jonathan B. Marder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD The right to bear arms
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:53:24 +0300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Hi Dan and all,
I suggest that police force is an appropriate modern translation of the
Hello everyone
From: Wim Nusselder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD True Libertarians Please Stand Up
MoQites of all nations, unite!
Could we not agree on the following:
1. Fighting government (= social patterns) with guns (= inorganic
Hello everyone
From: Lawrence DeBivort [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: MD Back on topic
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:13:33 -0400
There is, I think, no intrinsic reason that Dynamic Quality should not
apply
to any system (human or not) that is
Hello everyone
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD Back on topic
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:04:10 EDT
In a message dated 6/15/2001 10:15:37 AM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Since all static patterns of value arise and
Hello everyone
From: Wim Nusselder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: MD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD True Libertarians Please Stand Up
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 21:59:54 +0200
Dear Dan,
In reply to my statement of 12/6 23:17 +0200
Fighting government (= social patterns) with
Hello everyone
From: Wim Nusselder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD True Libertarians Please Stand Up
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:35:28 +0200
Dear Dan,
I wrote 16/6 21:59 +0200
My interpretation of the MoQ would be that social patterns OPERATE
Hello everyone
From: Jonathan B. Marder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD Back on topic
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:06:35 +0300
Dear Dan, Roger, Platt, Andrea and all,
This has been a great week for the MoQ, and you may wonder why I've been so
Hello everyone
From: Wim Nusselder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: MD Relations between levels
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:16:19 +0200
Dear Dan,
I renamed the subject, but this is a reply to your 20/6 11:24 -0500 posting
in the True Libertarians
Hello everyone
From: Wim Nusselder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD Relations between levels
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:12:29 +0200
Dear Dan,
In your 26/6 17:37 -0500 post you counter my disappointment in Pirsig (He
... 'closes up an opening
From: Wim Nusselder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD Relations between levels
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:12:29 +0200
I would still like to know to what extent my analogy
Biological/Social/Intellectual evolution can be seen as a process by
From: Platt Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: MD Pirsig's hypocrisy
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:47:53 -0400
Hi Horse, Gerhard, Andrea, Marco, All:
Horse, rather than debate your point about a re-run of the Florida
election as being the highest
Hello everyone
From: Gerhard Ersdal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: MD Pirsig's hypocrisy
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:16:57 +0200
Hi Horse and others,
I'm probably accusing the MoQ for being Emotivism in disguise, as Struan
Hellier called it. That
Hello everyone
From: Platt Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: MD Pirsig's hypocrisy
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:42:04 -0400
Hi Dan:
Thanks for your comments on how different people interpret the MOQ
differently. Here's a case in point. You
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