On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:59:55AM -0600, David Young wrote:
One reason email software is not more useful is that because too many
smart people wage a losing war on the new, foreign ways of email instead
of programming filters that transform top-posted, red, 5000-column
emails to the style of
On 2012-11-30, Gray Calhoun g...@clhn.co wrote:
Etiquette varies based on the domain (e.g. where you are). There is
not one single etiquette for the universe. In Japan, tipping is often
regarded as extremely offensive. In the US, tipping is often
expected.
This is true, etiquette varies with
On 2012-11-30, Derek Martin inva...@pizzashack.org wrote:
I agree; good reasons for the existing standards have been put
forth. Arguments against those standards and said reasons have
contained fallacious logic.
This is the first such claim. No one has yet called out any fallacy
in logic
On 01.12.12 09:45, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
On 2012-11-30, Derek Martin inva...@pizzashack.org wrote:
Only because I got sick of replying to your nonsense.
You gave up. That will fail you every time.
Long threads have a tendency to degenerate into a trailing BS session,
but they don't
On Sat, Dec 01, 2012 at 09:45:48AM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
So not only to you need to establish a new standard, but you need to
update all the existing tools to support it.
No you don't. Tools become deprecated. Accept it.
A format which does what you described has existed
* Peter Davis p...@pfdstudio.com [2012-11-20 13:37 -0500]:
Most workplaces are using email to communicate, and they want maximum
efficiency in that. Users want a way to get a message across quickly,
as opposed to trying to create a beautiful and literate archive.
These efficient mails usually
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 07:08:11PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
Now, if we consider lousy tools (tools that either fail to facilitate
standards or needlessly impose extra work on humans), then it can only
be the contrary of what you're saying. Selfish authors do what is
convenient for
On 2012-11-30, Rich Kulawiec r...@gsp.org wrote:
I have heard myriad arguments advanced for abandoning or modifying
email etiquette over the past ten, twenty, thirty years. None of
them have ever been accompanied by a convincing rationale that
demonstrates why the proposed changes are
Tony's unattended mail: (07:08PM on Fri, Nov 30)
On 2012-11-30, Rich Kulawiec r...@gsp.org wrote:
[snip]
people who have never bothered to learn and understand proper email
etiquette,
Etiquette varies based on the domain (e.g. where you are). There is
not one single etiquette for the
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 07:08:11PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
On 2012-11-30, Rich Kulawiec r...@gsp.org wrote:
I have heard myriad arguments advanced for abandoning or modifying
email etiquette over the past ten, twenty, thirty years. None of
them have ever been accompanied by a
=- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Fri 23.Nov'12 at 15:07:49 + -=
[ Peter Davis Wrote On Fri 23.Nov'12 at 14:27:23 GMT ]
The prevalent thinking in the software organizations I've been a
part of is that products, including software, should be designed for
the way users think and behave,
On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:52:23AM -0600, Jim wrote in
20121123175223.ga32...@gmail.com:
Oh, and just out of curiousity, what language uses a slash for OR ?
I've always seen || (not sure if I've seen a single pipe for a logical
OR or not---my chemobrain[1]). is playing games with my head right
On 11/22/12 9:57 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:22:03PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
.snip.
Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with the design
and the code, and never with the user. Otherwise it's a failed
product.
You're
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 02:37:57PM -0600, David Champion wrote:
* On 21 Nov 2012, Chris Bannister wrote:
Because there are no CR/LF in a paragraph then it is treated all as one
line. If the first line of a paragraph appears at the bottom of the
screen as yours did then mutt displays All on
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 01:21:18PM -0600, Jim Graham wrote:
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:09:17AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
Because there are no CR/LF in a paragraph then it is treated all as one
line.
Interesting, considering that Unix doesn't use CR/LF ... it uses a single
newline
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:22:03PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
Apparently you're unaware of the last 30 or 40 years of human
factors and usability research, or the fact that other people are
using computers besides a bunch of ivory tower geeks who think users
will follow whatever strictures and
[ Peter Davis Wrote On Fri 23.Nov'12 at 14:27:23 GMT ]
This will be my last comment on the subject, since straying off
topic is, I think, a worse transgression than top posting or using
long lines. I apologize for prolonging this. I'll try to be as
explicit as I can, to clarify my views on
On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 03:43:21AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 01:21:18PM -0600, Jim Graham wrote:
Interesting, considering that Unix doesn't use CR/LF ... it uses a single
newline instead. So I suppose that means that the entire e-mail, from
the From line to
On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 09:27:23AM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
However, I also recognize that mutt is, to a large extent, obsolete.
Of course it still appeals to those who cling to the text/plain,
72-characters-per-line limit model from the 1970's, but that
audience is a smaller and smaller
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 03:34:13PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
On 11/20/12 3:18 PM, Rado Q wrote:
Software can't do magic, or make up for human failures. Sometimes
the responsibility is with the user, not the code.
Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with the design
and the
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 09:45:05PM +0100, Rado Q wrote:
.snip.`
Ok, we disagree on basic principles, because I require responsible
and respectful users for any tool, no matter how well or badly
it's coded.
People kill people, guns are just their tools for it.
On 11/22/12 3:13 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 03:34:13PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
On 11/20/12 3:18 PM, Rado Q wrote:
Software can't do magic, or make up for human failures. Sometimes
the responsibility is with the user, not the code.
Nope. Totally wrong. The
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 07:22:03PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
.snip.
Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with the design
and the code, and never with the user. Otherwise it's a failed
product.
You're absolutely right...as soon as they make programmers
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:59:55AM -0600, David Young wrote:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote:
[…]
Mail and news need to have sane line lengths. 72 or 76 chars are common. It
makes people look like AOL groupies when they post 500 character lines. Many
of us use
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 03:34:13PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
On 11/20/12 3:18 PM, Rado Q wrote:
Software can't do magic, or make up for human failures. Sometimes
the responsibility is with the user, not the code.
Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with the design
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 08:39:02PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
compose with no linefeeds, except when a linebreak is really needed (a
peom, for example). The the rendering software can wrap where it
makes the most sense to, and honor the existing linefeeds that are
important. The
* Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz [11-21-12 06:32]:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 08:39:02PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
compose with no linefeeds, except when a linebreak is really needed (a
peom, for example). The the rendering software can wrap where it
makes the most
Well, when it doesn't work to lecture people who are trying to
communicate, try ignoring them. On public MLs, whenever my this guy
doesn't know how to communicate effectively recognizer goes off, I
typically hit 'd' and move on.
If the sender never notices, you probably haven't missed anything.
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 02:54:42PM -0600, David Young wrote:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 09:27:19PM +0100, Holger Weiß wrote:
* David Young dyo...@pobox.com [2012-11-20 11:59]:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote:
Take some responsibility for yourself and your content.
/ Mark H. Wood wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 9:56:23 -0500 /
Well, when it doesn't work to lecture people who are trying to
communicate, try ignoring them. On public MLs, whenever my this guy
doesn't know how to communicate effectively recognizer goes off, I
typically hit 'd' and move on.
If
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:27:45PM +, Ken Moffat wrote:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:59:55AM -0600, David Young wrote:
Every now and then some jerk sends me an email reply where their
contribution is red. Maybe that is worth fighting about on grounds
that that's a poor choice of color
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 03:23:30PM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
/ Mark H. Wood wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at 9:56:23 -0500 /
Well, when it doesn't work to lecture people who are trying to
communicate, try ignoring them. On public MLs, whenever my this guy
doesn't know how to communicate
On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:09:17AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
Because there are no CR/LF in a paragraph then it is treated all as one
line.
Interesting, considering that Unix doesn't use CR/LF ... it uses a single
newline instead. So I suppose that means that the entire e-mail, from
the
* On 21 Nov 2012, Chris Bannister wrote:
Because there are no CR/LF in a paragraph then it is treated all as one
line. If the first line of a paragraph appears at the bottom of the
screen as yours did then mutt displays All on the far right of the
status line. This gives the impression that
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 03:23:30PM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
People sometimes just reply quickly and therefore forget to adhere
to some of the netiquette guidelines, it doesn't mean they should be
ignored.
Yes, it does. If your correspondence is impolite or thoughtless,
then giving
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote:
I wasn't going to post in this thread but...
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:16:44PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
On 2012-11-20, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
Ouch! Could you please set the line wrap
* David Young dyo...@pobox.com [11-20-12 13:02]:
...
One reason email software is not more useful is that because too many
smart people wage a losing war on the new, foreign ways of email instead
of programming filters that transform top-posted, red, 5000-column
emails to the style of email
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 01:10:37PM -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
Ignorant, disrespectful and inconsiderate is the top poster who quotes
5000 lines including sigs and trailers and irrelevant/unenforcable
disclaimers *and* the bottom poster who does the same and adds a single
line (or more)
=- David Young wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 11:59:55 -0600 -=
What, you have computers in your pockets but there is no
conformance to the width in columns of 40 year-old data terminals
any more?
That's not a technical issue but readability: it's easier on the eyes/
flow of reading when you don't
=- Peter Davis wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 13:37:36 -0500 -=
Most workplaces are using email to communicate, and they want
maximum efficiency in that. Users want a way to get a message
across quickly, as opposed to trying to create a beautiful and
literate archive.
Because in business it's
* David Young dyo...@pobox.com [2012-11-20 11:59]:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote:
Mail and news need to have sane line lengths. 72 or 76 chars are common. It
makes people look like AOL groupies when they post 500 character lines. Many
of us use console news
On 11/20/12 3:18 PM, Rado Q wrote:
Software can't do magic, or make up for human failures. Sometimes the
responsibility is with the user, not the code.
Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with the design and
the code, and never with the user. Otherwise it's a failed product.
Hi,
I would like to share a different perspective on this issue.
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 09:18:36PM +0100, Rado Q wrote:
=- David Young wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 11:59:55 -0600 -=
What, you have computers in your pockets but there is no
conformance to the width in columns of 40 year-old
On 2012-11-20, Rado Q l%...@gmx.de wrote:
=- David Young wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 11:59:55 -0600 -=
What, you have computers in your pockets but there is no
conformance to the width in columns of 40 year-old data terminals
any more?
That's not a technical issue but readability: it's easier
=- Peter Davis wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 15:34:13 -0500 -=
Software can't do magic, or make up for human failures. Sometimes
the responsibility is with the user, not the code.
Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with the design and the
code, and never with the user. Otherwise
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 09:27:19PM +0100, Holger Weiß wrote:
* David Young dyo...@pobox.com [2012-11-20 11:59]:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote:
Take some responsibility for yourself and your content. Post like a man
not
a webbot.
I cannot believe people
/ Rado Q wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 21:45:05 +0100 /
=- Peter Davis wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 15:34:13 -0500 -=
Software can't do magic, or make up for human failures. Sometimes
the responsibility is with the user, not the code.
Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with
* David Young dyo...@pobox.com [2012-11-20 14:54]:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 09:27:19PM +0100, Holger Weiß wrote:
* David Young dyo...@pobox.com [2012-11-20 11:59]:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote:
Take some responsibility for yourself and your content. Post like
Hello dear discussants,
are you even aware?
Fact:
There are two types of people: people who wrap lines when they edit and people
who don't.
Since you all apparently are using mutt you can deal with both types.
So what is this all about?
Could please be so kind and stop spamming about this
=- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 20:57:53 + -=
Ok, we disagree on basic principles, because I require
responsible and respectful users for any tool, no matter how
well or badly it's coded.
I think to label someone as disrespectful and irresponsible simply
because they
/ Rado Q wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 22:27:43 +0100 /
=- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 20:57:53 + -=
Ok, we disagree on basic principles, because I require
responsible and respectful users for any tool, no matter how
well or badly it's coded.
I think to label
=- Jamie Paul Griffin wrote on Tue 20.Nov'12 at 22:19:25 + -=
My confusion is simply due to the fact that when my emails come
through from mutt's mailing list manager to my server and I read
them with mutt, I don't experience the readability issues others
seem to. It's not something that
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:19:25PM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
My first response to Chris when he raised the issue stated that I would
happily adjust the setting for vi, on invocation from mutt, to address the
issue. Chris kindly responded with a muttrc tip. I have no problem at all
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:59:55AM -0600, David Young wrote:
Every now and then some jerk sends me an email reply where their
contribution is red. Maybe that is worth fighting about on grounds
that that's a poor choice of color for readability, but not on grounds
that my console is
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 01:37:36PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 01:10:37PM -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
Ignorant, disrespectful and inconsiderate is the top poster who quotes
5000 lines including sigs and trailers and irrelevant/unenforcable
disclaimers *and* the
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 03:34:13PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
On 11/20/12 3:18 PM, Rado Q wrote:
Software can't do magic, or make up for human failures. Sometimes
the responsibility is with the user, not the code.
Nope. Totally wrong. The responsibility is entire with the design
and the
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 05:51:40PM -0600, Derek Martin wrote:
Top posting almost invariably requires me to re-read WAY more of the
previous thread than I would have had to if the user posted in line
and trimmed quoted text appropriately. And on top of that, you have
to read, in chunks,
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 01:37:36PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
Your preferences don't apply everywhere. In most of the (many) places
I've worked, top-posting is the normal, and preferred practice. That
way, you can quickly see what someone has added to the conversation
without wading through
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