m: owner-openehr-technical at openehr.org
> [mailto:owner-openehr-technical at openehr.org]On Behalf Of Karsten Hilbert
> Sent: Sunday, 15 September 2002 6:57 PM
> To: Gerard Freriks
> Cc: David Guest; Openehr-Technical; Ton Smit
> Subject: Re: Archetype ontology
>
>
> 1) How do
Andrew Goodchild wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>I am rather late to this thread, but it seems to me that there are a
>number of alternatives here:
>
>a) Do nothing
>b) Have a reasonably secure system, but no signing
>c) Sign the content in the database
>d) Sign what was on the screen and store the signed im
Hi All,
I am rather late to this thread, but it seems to me that there are a
number of alternatives here:
a) Do nothing
b) Have a reasonably secure system, but no signing
c) Sign the content in the database
d) Sign what was on the screen and store the signed image
You can spend all day arguing
ical
> Subject: Re: Archetype ontology
>
>
> > So an EHR is a series of signed, authored messages that can be used in
> > court. Without the fulfillment of the requirements, the EHR is
> nothing but
> > information written in the sand before a wave of the sea washes it a
om: Karsten Hilbert [mailto:Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net]
>> Sent: Saturday, 14 September 2002 5:49 PM
>> To: Gerard Freriks
>> Cc: Melvin Reynolds; Thomas Beale; William Hammond; Sam Heard;
>> Openehr-Technical
>> Subject: Re: Archetype ontology
>>
>>
>>
On 16-09-2002 03:03, "Thomas Beale" wrote:
> I think this is a good overall comment. To which I'll add that what
> needs to be shown to have been understood in court are simple clinical
> or other facts, in the form of propositions, not screen bit patterns. In
> court, it will nee to be shown tha
>> Lastly, one simple question. How does TNO propose to handle
>> the audit trail of signed screenshots simply in terms of
>> storage requirements ?
>>
> This is a simple problem.
> Now every year one hospital needs 1 kilometre of shelf space.
Well, the treeware equivalent of what we are talki
Melvin Reynolds wrote:
> Once again I agree (mostly!) - and certainly did not want to imply
> different levels of medico-legal requirement within any particular
> jurisdiction.
> The integrated healthcare record is very usefully regarded as a single
> repository which contains, either directl
On 15-09-2002 11:26, "Karsten Hilbert" wrote:
> 1) How do I know that the passphrase I typed in to be used for
> the secret key is used to sign what I see on screen and
> nothing else ?
Because a special secure device does all the encrypting.
After having inserted the Health professional Ca
1) How do I know that the passphrase I typed in to be used for
the secret key is used to sign what I see on screen and
nothing else ?
2) How does the court know that a signed screenshot was
actually shown on screen and not just fabricated and never
shown ? (It is my responsibility to _in
If health and social care continue to converge as is happening in the UK
then the protocol of Soc Services is to also record things that may have
been considered appropriate in principle but which the individual
professional based on knowledge of the individual client circumstances
chose explicitly
NO.
You didn't get it.
So I try again.
I'm making the subtle difference between information in a database and
information presented on a screen.
And signing what is in a database and signing what is on the screen.
By the way. Signing means: "I, the signer, take full responsibility for what
was si
On Sat, 2002-09-14 at 23:29, Gerard Freriks wrote:
> Text as pointers or URL's it is all fine with me.
> But he signes what he sees.
I think I've got it, Gerard. What are you signing is that a certain
dataset was available to you on a particular day for a particular
patient. You are not signing th
On Sat, 2002-09-14 at 21:03, Gerard Freriks wrote:
> Karsten,
> And others,
>
>
> What is your idea?
>
> - Can you agree with me that it is possible to proof that information was in
> a database at a certain time in most systems?
Certainly. That's what Horst's gnotary is about.
http://www.gnume
n
Subject: Re: Archetype ontology
Karsten,
It is the opinion of the Applied Technical Research Institute (TNO-PG), I
work for, after having studied European law and Dutch law that possibly the
only legally valid proof is a signed 'picture' of what was shown on the
screen. E.g. A pres
On 14-09-2002 15:16, "David Guest" wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-09-14 at 21:03, Gerard Freriks wrote:
>> Karsten,
>> And others,
>>
>>
>> What is your idea?
>>
>> - Can you agree with me that it is possible to proof that information was in
>> a database at a certain time in most systems?
> Certainly.
Karsten,
And others,
What is your idea?
- Can you agree with me that it is possible to proof that information was in
a database at a certain time in most systems?
But most systems are unable to proof what was seen on a screen and signed
before being committed to the record or sent to an other en
Karsten,
It is the opinion of the Applied Technical Research Institute (TNO-PG), I
work for, after having studied European law and Dutch law that possibly the
only legally valid proof is a signed 'picture' of what was shown on the
screen. E.g. A prescription, an order, a referral.
Next to the info
> So an EHR is a series of signed, authored messages that can be used in
> court. Without the fulfillment of the requirements, the EHR is nothing but
> information written in the sand before a wave of the sea washes it away.
This is, however, the way medicine worked for thousands of
years, and reas
On 13-09-2002 16:51, "Melvin Reynolds" wrote:
>
>>> However, the final statement "... As soon as one >starts thinking
>>> about what has to happen to turn messages into EHR >content, it
>>> becomes clearer and clearer that the EHR is nothing like a >compendium
>>> of messages; for from it - it i
Melvin Reynolds wrote:
> Thomas,
>
> Somewhat to my surprise I find myself agreeing with most of your
> points in the discussion below.
he he he, that's the kind of reply I like to see;-)
> However, the final statement "... As soon as one >starts thinking
> about what has to happen to turn
liam E Hammond; Sam Heard; Gerard Freriks; Openehr-Technical
> Subject: Re: Archetype ontology
>
>
> Thomas,
>
> Somewhat to my surprise I find myself agreeing with most of your points
> in the discussion below.
>
> However, the final statement "... As soon as one >star
William E Hammond wrote:
>What happens when messaging is used for query. I view messaging as any
>interchange between two or more entities. I view pier to pier
>communications as messages, and I have found nothing to contradict that. I
>would be interested in any references that suggest other
classifications. The bottom line is we should look at the
structure of the nursing classification scheme, and associated linkages
between the classification. It provides a very organized way to represent
clinical actions and reactions. It is roughly in keeping with the Archetype
ontology Sam des
What happens when messaging is used for query. I view messaging as any
interchange between two or more entities. I view pier to pier
communications as messages, and I have found nothing to contradict that. I
would be interested in any references that suggest otherwise.
Why is the definition of
just a different expression of the action.
I hope this is helpful?
Cheers, Sam
> -Original Message-
> From: Gerard Freriks [mailto:gfrer at luna.nl]
> Sent: Wednesday, 4 September 2002 8:01 AM
> To: Sam Heard
> Subject: Re: Archetype ontology
>
>
> On 04-09-2002 0
Wednesday, 4 September 2002 7:31 AM
> To: Sam Heard; Thomas Beale; openehr-technical at openehr.org
> Subject: Re: Archetype ontology
>
>
> Sam,
>
> Could the following be another example?
>
> The Blood pressure.
> The RR as an act, a measurement, a procedure.
> And th
Dear all,
I have been working hard to get an ontology of archetypes developed that
will show the health domain mapped into the openEHR architecture. I have
found a couple of things:
1. That there is often a link between an instruction and subsequent
observations - which I think will be more impor
Sam,
Could the following be another example?
The Blood pressure.
The RR as an act, a measurement, a procedure.
And the RR as a set of values, the result of the act, the measurement
results, the result of a procedure.
The act is one thing, an intention.
The value as the result of the execution of
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