> > > Subject: [Hardhats] Re: [openhealth] Announcing Liberty Medical
> Software
> > Foundation and a petition in support of the current VistA as Utility act
> > >
> > > This is unlikely to be a problem if we simply consistently refer to
> > > the organ
My only concern about this proposal is that there is a company with the
name Liberty Medical out there (http://www.libertymedical.com). That
might create some confusion as well as some legal issues, but then I'm
no lawyer. (in fact, when I saw the title of the email, I initially
thought it was
Tim Cook wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
>
>
>> OpenEMed should certainly show up in the list of healthcare software
>> applications.
>> I have no idea of how to do this with JSON, particularly, since I see no
>> mention of any JSON
>> links on the referen
The link for OpenEMed would better point to OpenEMed.org rather than
OpenEMed.net.
Also, I don't see any link to JSON data. OpenEMed should be listed as a
application framework,
not as a standard. It implements a set of standards, but isn't a
standard in its own right. Also
CORBAmed should b
If one uses a structured report along the lines of the ASTM CCR, then
I think it would be "relatively" easy to remove the sensitive information,
since all of the data would be tagged.
Dave
Nandalal Gunaratne wrote:
> Will,
>
> It is not a good idea to have sensitive information in
> free text. I
That is the reason for the patient consent in the HIPAA regulations. In
my opinion, the
patient would need to review the data to approve its release. The usual
escape clause
is for the data to be used in the normal care of the patient But if it
is for some
other purpose, then it needs specifi
Agreed. Such an action would at least have to have approval of a local
HIPAA board.
How would one "prove" it is reliable at removing protected information?
If it is
an algorithm, the algorithm would need local approval.
Dave
Maury Pepper wrote:
>
> 1. How good does it have to be? Is 5% leakag
Tim Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
>
>> Joseph Dal Molin wrote:
>>
>>> Open source efforts/software like OpenMRS, WorldVistA (VistA Office
>>> etc.), OSCAR etc. that are focused on diffusion/uptake and continuous
>>> improvement. All
is the 23rd annual meeting devoted to the immanent
>> transition from paper to digital charting.
>>
>>http://www.medrecinst.com/conference/tepr/index.asp
>>
>> Meanwhile, in my rural region of California, 2007 may be the year we
>> see adoption of EHR rise
Paul wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Thanks for your thoughts. These discussions can get religious fairly
> quickly, so I'll just say that the bottom line for us is a simple one:
> we're supporting an open-source collaboration less to meet/support
> longstanding specifications that have fairly low uptake to t
Tim Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
>
>> I've seen no real
>> effort in the open source community to embrace interoperability.
>> Certainly interoperability has
>> been opposed by much of industry until recently, but there is no good
>> re
lity to dynamically evolve (on-the-fly) data collection forms and
> other aspects of the database schemas is also a large added
> complication. We have some ideas, proven in practice in other,
> non-health settings, about how to tackle these challenges, but think
> there is perhaps 6-12 pe
Paul,
I have a question as to the interoperability of OpenMRS. At what
level can or could it interoperate with other systems? It seems to have
its own API rather than some of the "standard" APIs out there. This
information says that OpenMRS isn't another "stovepipe", but only talks
of how o
for multiple identifiers for the same person. This
is all spelled out in the spec originally published in 1998. This is
likely to be expanded with the EIS specification now being
considered by the OMG (and HL7).
Dave
Nandalal Gunaratne wrote:
>
>
> --- David Forslund <[EMA
OpenEMed continues to be in modest development but
perhaps not visible at a higher level. The MPI work
is based on the OMG PIDS standard. It is open
source and has been so since 2000. The next
generation of PIDS will result from the current
EIS RFP from the OMG which is currently
soliciting resp
ir copyrighted descriptions.
> > > The project would be to create new descriptions that were functionally
> > > the same and could be freely distributed under an open license such as
> > > the Creative Commons license (http://creativecommons.org/
> <http://creativecommons.org/&g
as
> > the Creative Commons license (http://creativecommons.org/
> <http://creativecommons.org/>).
> >
> > /Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In openhealth@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:openhealth%40yahoogroups.com>, David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
the Creative Commons license (http://creativecommons.org/
> <http://creativecommons.org/>).
>
> /Mark
>
> --- In openhealth@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:openhealth%40yahoogroups.com>, David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > This effort would requi
This effort would require commitment from the payor that they
would accept those codes for reimbursement. Otherwise this
effort will be relatively useless.
Dave
mspohr wrote:
>
> The goal of the CPT code project would be to create a version of
> procedure codes for use in billing in the US that c
-rlus.wikispaces.com/ <http://hssp-rlus.wikispaces.com/>
>
> As a frame of reference, here's the FAQ from HSSP.
>
> http://hssp.wikispaces.com/hssp-faq <http://hssp.wikispaces.com/hssp-faq>
>
> With best regards,
>
> [wr]
>
> - - - - - - - -
>
> On Dec
Falls Church, VA 22041
Tel: +1-703-845-3277
Mobile: +1-301-335-0534
+ _mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
David Forslund wrote:
>
> Here is an opportunity for the open source community to contribute to a
> significant new standard for healthcare.
> Anyone willing to participate in a response to
Here is an opportunity for the open source community to contribute to a
significant new standard for healthcare.
Anyone willing to participate in a response to these RFPs?
Dave Forslund
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OpenCTS
as part of OpenEMed that could be used in this context. All
open source, of course.
Thanks,
Dave
Nandalal Gunaratne wrote:
>
>
> --- David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:forslund%40mail.com>> wrote:
> I think
> > EHR applications should be interope
Just a comment:
I like OpenEHR, but it is erroneous to refer to it as an "open standard".
The term "standard" is usually reserved for something certified as a
standard
by an organization or that is a de facto standard by its widespread
use. Neither
of these apply to OpenEHR at this time. It a
Because that will result in massive loss of
clinical information and lack of availability
when needed and failure to get it updated
in a timely manner. If everyone in the
world was a responsible person, this might
have a chance, but people make mistakes
and forget things. I'm all for a person
to ha
sort, especially in this era, when people are
> moving from country to country and suddenly need their
> records in a strange land!
>
> --- David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:forslund%40mail.com>> wrote:
>
> > Absolutely not! I do want the patient to be in
>
ess without fail to the patient in
> an emergency, which may happen in another country at
> an ungodly hour.
>
> Unfortunately not every country has such a well
> developed, GP based system, as in the UK.
>
> Nandalal
>
> --- Adrian Midgley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto
I'm not sure what Thomas' view is, but here are my $.02.
Thinking of messaging tends to distract one from trying to solve the
real problem. The idea seems to be that sending messages around is
good and people will eventually be able to figure out what they mean.
One needs to worry more about sema
Sorry about the earlier email. I forgot that the mailer strips off
attachments
so I'm sending it as inline text.
-Dave
David Forslund wrote:
>
> For those looking for interoperability, here is the chance to
> participate in the next generation
> of interface specifications
For those looking for interoperability, here is the chance to
participate in the next generation
of interface specifications. This is a joint effort of the OMG and HL7
and interested parties.
-Dave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit yo
In fact, I believe the PIDS used by OpenHRE is from OpenEMed (although their
report doesn't mention this). I know it started that way but haven't
heard from
them for quite awhile.
As for Adrian's points 1) and 2), the PIDS specification and implementation
are designed to fulfill both of those r
I would hope that your campsite would be out of range of a blackberry.
This
would help in the overall isolation that should be the goal of the
camping experience.
Dave
K.S. Bhaskar wrote:
>
> They don't call them Crackberries for nothing!!!
>
> Seriously, I have to take it with me because it i
I apologize for bringing this up, but it does affect my relationship
with OSHCA
since it is being incorporated in Malaysia. I will be unable to support
OSHCA
in Malaysia because of the politics/human rights issues I see happening
in that country.
Sorry,
Dave Forslund
K.S. Bhaskar wrote:
>
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > What is happening with the setting up of OSHCA in Malaysia? It has been
> > quiet for some time now.
>
> My understanding is that the papers have been filed with the relevant
> authority and presumably they are being or w
What is happening with the setting up of OSHCA in Malaysia? It has been
quiet for some time now.
It is disturbing to see the Prime Minister of Malaysia shaking hands
with the Hamas terrorist Mahmoud Zahar. What
possible good can come from that? How are we supposed to interpret this
actio
I hope no politicians have anything to do with the OMG HDTF. This would
be a severe
mistake since it would then contain nothing technically useful. A
requirement that "industry"
come up with rigorous interoperability requirements would be useful.
The issue of "humanely motivated reason" is
Tim Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > Tim Cook wrote:
> > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > ivhalpc wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I wonder how this is all going to end
.
These specifications are early examples of what is now popularly known
as SOA (Service Oriented Architecture).
Dave
Greg Woodhouse wrote:
>
>
> --- David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> -
> HL7 is only a partial "solu
Tim Cook wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> ivhalpc wrote:
>
> >
> > I wonder how this is all going to end and I fear it will end badly as
> > in Nationalized medicine in the US
>
> Would that truly be a bad thing? I'm not sure how a transition would
> work but answer
HL7 is only a partial "solution" to interoperability as you indicate and
less than
most might have thought. Which is why there is the HSSP
effort underway which is picking up from the OMG HDTF effort
almost a decade ago. The OMG HDTF made enormous
progress toward interoperability but it is
be
> torpedoed in a proprietary world. It doesn't matter what standards
> real or future that reach all the way up to the GUI say. FOSS
> eliminates many of these problems or makes them tractable. Again, I'm
> probably preaching to the choir on this list.
>
> -- Ig
when costs continue to climb out of
> control because of this kind of insanity.
>
> -- Ignacio H. Valdes, MD, MS
> -- Editor: Linux Medical News
> -- http://www.linuxmednews.com
>
> --- In openhealth@yahoogroups.com, David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> &
IBM is part of one of the ONCHIT "winners". Also IBM is participating in
the HSSP effort. Sounds like normal operations for IBM.
I've not found a technical reference to the IHII yet, although the
ONCHIT required at least some of the response to be open source.
Dave Forslund
Nandalal Gunaratne wr
It isn't clear to me the role that OSHCA can/should play in the
standards world. It might be useful
for the community to agree on things that "everyone" will support, but
that alone doesn't make it a "standard".
Standards my be dictated by national entities or other bodies outside
the contr
In the US (and UK) SNOMED-CT is freely available. Do folks use the
ICPC-2 spec? If so what do you all think of it?
Dave
Nandalal Gunaratne wrote:
>
>
> "Alvin B. Marcelo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You are quite right. Interoperability depends in turn on the agreement
> on standards. C
ratne wrote:
>
>
> David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The coding system standards in the US have been specified by CHI. We
> should share coding systems, but
> even more important is to provide mappings between coding systems, since
> not everyone will ever use
Alvin B. Marcelo wrote:
> > Tell me where I can find something of the Phillipine RUV system for
> procedures?
>
> http://www.philhealth.gov.ph/download/RVS2003.pdf
What is the meaning of the RVU column in this document?
Someone needs to do a mapping of this to one of the other UMLS data models
As most of you know by now, OpenEMed uses a service oriented architecture
based on the OMG PIDS/COAS/RAD/LQS standards, with PIDS using
by default the HL7 2.3 PID segment of patient identification. COAS uses
various HL7 codes for observations (or any other coding system that is
available).
L
Will we hear the voting results or are they posted somewhere?
What is the point of the election unless the votes are reported?
Have I missed something?
Dave Forslund
SPONSORED LINKS
Software distribution
When will we hear how the voting went?
Thanks,
Dave Forslund
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "openhealth" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
I commend Molly and the Protem committee for all of the hard work.
I assume the digestion of this event will include reporting how the
voting went.
( I've been curious why "protem" was used for the committee name instead
of "protemp"?)
I supposed I should have followed all the openhealth discu
I don't understand the complaint about Will's concerns. The voting
wasn't done when he indicated his comments.
So why do you say that "everything was done and over with"? What is the
voting about then? Perhaps
I'm missing something important? I thought voting was a "democratic"
process. :
REED with only one resolution. given the
> process we have created, i will be surprised if they don't all pass.
I did about the same.
Dave
>
> [wr]
>
> - - - - - - - -
>
> On Apr 25, 2006, at 7:10 AM, David Forslund wrote:
>
> > If the process requires all o
If the process requires all of the items to be approved to move forward,
I submit it is fatally flawed. If all are required to be approved then
there should simply be one vote up or down. If not then the results of
the process should be able to go forward based on the various possible
outcomes
Interoperability certainly isn't the "only" issue. However, you will
find that it
is an integrating issue. That is it brings a number of important issues
together and
actually reduces cost. There is never a question of whether one needs
to interoperate, only when. Typically people want to
:
>
>
> David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> If the OSHCA takes on the task of making the "glue"
>
> * to get FOSS for Health groups to understand the true value of FOSS
> which is sharing/contributing and collaborating with
I agree precisely with Thomas' succinct statement. Healthcare
is still dealing with and producing silos that can't easily be penetrated.
We have found it easier to tackle this in locations that have no
existing infrastructure to overcome, such as underdeveloped regions
(of which we have many i
ill be up to its membership and the goal
> creating a "formal" organization will allow the scope of what OSHCA can
> accomplisy, through funding etc. to expand significantly.
>
> Joseph
>
> David Forslund wrote:
> > Is OSHCA membership intended to simply be an is
Is OSHCA membership intended to simply be an issue of who can vote on
decisions by the organization or does it entail other matters? Most
organizations allow for observers and external contributors, but those
can't vote on organizational decisions. For example, can anyone
participate/atte
Yes, it would be nice if this info was put on the oscha.org web site (or
at least told
there where to find the information). I don't understand
"representation by region".
I assumed that people from anywhere can join and that region doesn't
matter. I
also don't understand the use of HDI.
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > Tim.Churches wrote:
> > > David Forslund wrote:
> > > > OMG HDTF: PIDS, COAS, RAD, LQS
> > >
> > > In case anyone else is looking for these, this message provides
> pointers
> >
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > OMG HDTF: PIDS, COAS, RAD, LQS
>
> In case anyone else is looking for these, this message provides pointers
> to them - they are nigh-on impossible to find just be navigating around
> the OMG Web site: http://www.omg.or
e worried about licensing issues.
Dave
Tim Cook wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> David Forslund wrote:
> > OMG HDTF: PIDS, COAS, RAD, LQS
> >
>
> This little snippet from the OMG specs I have seen really makes
> me want to spend my time imple
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > My general comment is that it is never to early to consider
> > interoperability. The cost in the design
> > up front is very small compared to later. Designing systems with a
> > "SOA" approach is actua
OMG HDTF: PIDS, COAS, RAD, LQS
Dave
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > What we have done shouldn't be the issue at all. What is important is
> > that there has been standards
> > in this area for some time (98-00). I've heard people complain that
alvinbmarcelo wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Good to see you're still here.
>
> Way back in 2001, I unsubscribed from openhealth (still in Minoru back
> then) because I felt much of the discussions were very theoretical and
> I had not much code/experience to contribute. Well now, we have source
> code (
ms universal in healthcare and
other domains.
If there is a mechanism in CHITS to "glue" things together, I would like
to see the documentation so I could
see what is involved. Unfortunately, if it is only in PHP, it makes it
more difficult because it has PHP artifacts.
Anyway, tha
Nandalal Gunaratne wrote:
>
>
> alvinbmarcelo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I think everyone in openhealth will agree to what you say Alvin. But
> we need to set these standards first, and from what i can see this is
> not going anywhere.
The HSSP folks are doing this now. Service Oriented Arch
Nandalal Gunaratne wrote:
>
>
> David Forslund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> The only open source system I'm aware
> of that has tried to follow this pattern is the OpenEMed software :-)
>
> Why is this so? Why is it that others hae not used this
Alvin,
We had exactly this approach with the OMG HDTF (aka corbamed) in the
late 90's. There are standards there which do exactly this (long
before people thought about doing web services). In addition, this is
now being revisited with the HSSP joint effort of HL7 and the OMG
(hssp.wikispac
Is someone going to review OpenEMed? I'm not sure who is using it, but
it has been the basis for several EMR efforts and has been downloaded
some 15,000+ times from Sourceforge (?!). It will have full support
for the ASTM CCR shortly.
Thanks,
Dave
Nandalal Gunaratne wrote:
> It seems to me
n Malaysia won't help much in this respect.
I assume that OSHCA has engaged
a lawyer to deal with this business process and to make recommendations.
Dave
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > Tim.Churches wrote:
> > > David Forslund wrote:
> > > > Mo
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > Molly,
> >
> > Incorporating OSHCA in the US doesn't necessarily imply US domination.
>
> No, but US citizens need to be sensitive to the negative feelings
> towards the US which are present and growing in many co
he
> developing world that needs help.
>
> Molly
>
> >
> >Richard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Molly Cheah wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I was born in Malaysia and lived through the period where we obtained
> >>independance from the British
correctly?
I'm not suspicious about other countries' law; rather trying to
understand the issues, requirements, reasons, and advantages.
Sometimes people make decisions without understanding the reality of the
choices.
-Dave
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> >
ke OSHCA is IMHO
> >not a major concern. What is more important is how the countries laws
> >influence governance.
> >
> >David Forslund wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should
> >>matter is the l
wants to do internationally.
Dave
Tim.Churches wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should
> > matter is the legal protection
> > provided by the incorporation in the various countries participating,
> &
I don't understand why this is good or even relevant. What should
matter is the legal protection
provided by the incorporation in the various countries participating,
which I think was Richard's point.
Dave Forslund
Tim.Churches wrote:
> Richard Schilling wrote:
> > If I were involved in the in
e may need to be
re-written is no big deal.
Dave
Thomas Beale wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > Will,
> > I agree with you, which is why I also argue for using standards for
> > the communication and
> > interfaces in a system. That way one can replace the syste
n the
> specific software package (in this case "HealthPro").
>
> [wr]
>
> - - - - - - - -
>
> On Mar 23, 2006, at 9:39 PM, David Forslund wrote:
>
>
>> Is this workflow put into a "computable" form or is it just to help
>> unders
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5624944
is the link to the article I intended to post.
David Forslund wrote:
> I thought folks might like to see this article. Any comments?
>
> -Dave
>
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the we
Sorry about the mailer stripping the message.
Dave
David Forslund wrote:
> I thought folks might like to see this article. Any comments?
>
> -Dave
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> -
I thought folks might like to see this article. Any comments?
-Dave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Will,
I agree with you, which is why I also argue for using standards for
the communication and
interfaces in a system. That way one can replace the system with others
that implement
those same standards. This allows even for a replacement of an open
source solution
with a proprietary one
and comprehensively
> add the necessary features to the base ClearHealth product. All the
> new code being paid with grant funds will be released under the
> GPL. The project portal is located here:
>
>http://www.phoenixpm.org/
>
> With best regards,
>
> [wr]
rHealth product. All the
> new code being paid with grant funds will be released under the
> GPL. The project portal is located here:
>
>http://www.phoenixpm.org/
>
> With best regards,
>
> [wr]
>
> - - - - - - - -
>
> On Mar 23, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Da
Tim Cook wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> David Forslund wrote:
> > I'm trying to understand what these reference view points have to do
> > with getting the data between organizations.
> > In a single care place, the data fo
So, when some information has to be transfered from one team member to
> another one, they have to use the continuity of care system in order to
> know who is in charge at this moment. Elsewhere, the information may end
> up at a doctor's you no longer visit.
>
> Co
Philippe AMELINE wrote:
> Will,
>
> Who is the "user" you want to show workflow diagrams too?
> Is he/she an health professional or a citizen/patient?
>
I can't speak for Will, but I think workflow is useful for the tasks
that people need to do in
caring for a patient. In the work we did with
I wholeheartedly agree with you, Will!Do you have some example
workflow diagrams that
you have found useful?
Dave
Will Ross wrote:
> Philippe,
>
> Actually, I am still talking about Wayne's focus on the user. As a
> project manager I spend much of my time in a balancing act by
> advocat
Communication between HIS isn't specifically a need of a citizen, just
the results of it. It has been
almost impossible for a patient to be able to see or possess a record of
their healthcare which is
being done by a variety of organizations and providers. This need for
a "virtual healthcare
stable releases, too.
Dave
Tim.Churches wrote:
> Thomas Beale wrote:
> > David Forslund wrote:
> > >
> > > We have been using workflow engines for a while. The one I happen to
> > > prefer is Shark (http://shark.objectweb.org)
> <http://shark.objectwe
), we end up with a plurality of engineering
> solutions and national authorities or standards committees then have to
> decide between them and anoint one or the other, or at least a few.
>
> > > David Forslund wrote:
> > > The vendor lock-in was the
> > >biggest
Thomas Beale wrote:
> David Forslund wrote:
> > I think we should have some time of interoperability testbed for open
> > source systems with each other and with other
> > non-open source systems. Interoperability and open source can be quite
> > orthogonal. Certai
I think we should have some time of interoperability testbed for open
source systems with each other and with other
non-open source systems. Interoperability and open source can be quite
orthogonal. Certainly all systems
need to today to indicate their level of "interoperability" and how that
I second Will Ross position and Bhaskar's recommendation. The
yahoogroups email is working fine as
far as I can see. I think it was problems with the other list that had
caused some trouble in the past. Let's
put this behind us and move forward.
Dave Forslund
Will Ross wrote:
> I agree with
Have you looked at openedi on sourceforge?
Dave
Will Ross wrote:
> I'm looking for one. At any stage of development. Any suggestions
> will be welcome.
>
> With best regards,
>
> [wr]
>
> - - - - - - - -
>
> will ross
> mendocino informatics
> 216 west perkins street, suite 206
> ukiah, calif
u, Nov 24, 2005 at 09:35:48AM -0700, David Forslund wrote:
>
> > "The Drug Product Database (DPD) system captures information on
> Canadian human,
> > veterinary and disinfectant products approved by the Drugs Programme
> for use in Canada."
> >
> > So it
I also don't see anything different about use outside or inside Canada.
However, I do have a question about the Canadian nature of the data. It
mentions the use of French characters in the data and in the
identification of products no longer marketed in Canada. It also says
"The Drug Product
I guess it is too much to ask that these databases be made available
in a database independent format. This way they could be
incorporated into existing systems that don't happen to have (or don't
want) PostgresSQL
running. It seems to me that the descriptions of the data and the data
could ea
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