Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Shantnu Sharma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Felix, Thanks for the heads up and thanks for your participation in the open solaris community. I was wondering if you can point me to documentation which dwells upon the German Government's propensity to favor KDE. Sorry for being late but it took a while to figure out some details here. So far no public information has been disclosed yet except the stuff from the talks at LinuxWorld 2006 in Frankfurt. Lead person of the task force is Björn Kümmel from the German ministry for health (ok, bad translation, in German it's Bundesministerium für Gesundheit und Soziale Sicherung, BMGS, however other ministries like BMI, BMJ and the Parliament are directly involved, too). Apparently more information will be disclosed in August 2006 with a full list of requirements (which includes KDE as a *mandatory* requirement (likely for purchase of support contacts for Linux/Unix-like operating systems - which includes Solaris/OpenSolaris)) ... that's all I could figure out for now without signing some kind of non-disclosure agreement... :-( -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
ken mays [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A question would be if people wanted to build apps for KDE, without having purchased Sun Studio, would it have been possible to a large degree of people?? I Well, Sun Studio is free of charge - you do not need to purchase it. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Moinak Ghosh wrote: Maybe what we require from all the distributions is a common means of identifying versions, so a package installer can search for package Xversion Y on the system, regardless of its origin. I have been pointing this out for a while. Right now all the dependencies are based on package names which fosters duplication. Instead we need to have dependencies based on standard exported (by some means) module names. OK, maybe a starting point would be to agree on a package naming convention. I know this won't be easy, if you look back though the archives of the SolarisX86 Yahoo list, you will see how much wrangling went on before the CSW name was agreed for Blastwave packages. Mind you, much of that related to the directory name. Any suggestions an how an agreement could be reached? Could it work with just the package name being common and still having SFW, CSW, SUNW etc. packages? I don't see why not. Another wild idea it to use something like a stripped down configure script to check for dependencies. This will not require standard module naming. Wouldn't that require consistent library names and version numbering? Or maybe something like what(1) could be used (is there an equivalent for CVS files?)? Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
- Original Message - From: Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moinak Ghosh wrote: I have been pointing this out for a while. Right now all the dependencies are based on package names which fosters duplication. Instead we need to have dependencies based on standard exported (by some means) module names. OK, maybe a starting point would be to agree on a package naming convention. I know this won't be easy, if you look back though the archives of the SolarisX86 Yahoo list, you will see how much wrangling went on before the CSW name was agreed for Blastwave packages. Mind you, much of that related to the directory name. Any suggestions an how an agreement could be reached? Could it work with just the package name being common and still having SFW, CSW, SUNW etc. packages? I don't see why not. It is possible, but that implies that package contents must also be uniform. One repository may deliver two related modules in separate packages while another one delivers them as one - this will break the scheme. It is much harder to get agreement on uniform package contents. IMHO it is bettter to separate the package namespace and the dependency namespace. It also allows for fine-grained dependencies. Another wild idea it to use something like a stripped down configure script to check for dependencies. This will not require standard module naming. Wouldn't that require consistent library names and version numbering? Or maybe something like what(1) could be used (is there an equivalent for CVS files?)? This already works with the current configure scripts distributed with most software now-a-days. And library names will be consistent - if you use OpenSSL on X platform you can always expect to find libssl and libcrypto. Only the version may differ and that is what the dependency check also has to verify (whether the package version requirements are met). Essentially instead of a fixed policy the dependency check is a script that checks the paths to verify whether the required software is present. This offers maximum flexibility and interoperability with software installed from various repositories, but is more difficult to implement. Regards, Moinak. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Alan DuBoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Shillix is interesting if for nothing else than Joerg Schilling is working on it. It is missing (but gathering) needed pieces for a complete system as well. Same with Belenix. All of these system are getting better though, this is good. A lot of people did promise to help with SchilliX but the main person (who offered to help with X) is now living together with his girlfriend. The way SchilliX extends may look strange for some people, but I am aproaching a target that is as Solaris compatible as possible and that will bring you all Blastwave packages soon. I need to convert the whole SchilliX installation/CD-generation into a pkg based system this takes some time in special when a lot of the time is spend on reading mail and on finding a way to get a funding for SchilliX. Once the pkg conversion is ready with the first step and once X is available, 1300 Blastwave packages are ready to run on SchilliX. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
The stroke of the paintbrush is not so easily done in explaination of Blastwave and KDE (other package management schemes). I can easily sit here and ask where else can I find Scribus or FlightGear (not to get too far off topic) other than Blastwave?!? 1. Blastwave has a build model for developers contained mostly to /opt/csw. The attempt is not to modify a standard installation of Solaris at the risk of breaking other things. Also, Sun may have added patches or 'tweaks' to code which is not known to other people (hence, freetype at the time and other things I'm finding out). 2. We say integrate, yet we did things different 1-4 years ago for a reason - mainly from community suggestions. KDE-gcc (me) and KDE-Sun Studio (Stefan) was a bit of a debate a few years ago as people wanted a GCC version of KDE since Sun Studio wasn't free until just a few months ago. We requested updates to the KDE version on the Companion CD for three years but was told it was unsupported. So, a few people got together and built solaris.kde.org (KDE for Solaris). Also, Blastwave's KDE was to support all SPARC V8 and even sun4m (non-UltraSPARC) platforms (as well as all of the current incarnatons of Sun Solaris official releases (8/9/10/11)) -while also doing minimum modifications to the KDE source code. So please, don't paint everything with the same paintbrush without knowing all of the details. ;o 3. As for GNOME, a similar thing happened in people wanting the latest version of GNOME - yet we only had GNOME 2.0 back then and JDS was mainly for Linux. Also, future support for GNOME =2.6/2.8 on Solaris 8/9 got 'scrapped' officially (as far as I knew) so again, some community developers/maintainers got together and ported the latest GNOME to Solaris. JDS then got ported over for Solaris 10 (but not Solaris 8/9), so again the community tried to provide GNOME (and KDE) for sun4m users as well as Solaris 8-11 users. 4. As for OpenGL on Solaris x86, and many other packages and ports done by many people and not just Blastwave either, we have good reasons why things were done the way it has been done. Not that it was right, but it got the job done. Freetype 2.1.10 wasn't available on Solaris 8/9 when I ported it over. It also wasn't available on Sunfreeware or the Companion CD - when I ported it. The community had a major issue over freetype's backward compatibility - even within Xfree/Xorg and the font handling. If I needed KDE 3.5 or GNOME 2.12.2 today, where else can I find it but through the KDE for Solaris community project??? So, there are many questions and solutions that we need to answer for the rest of the community. 5. As for the Community CD, well why not ask people to volunteer to update parts of it which get merged into a quarterly release?? We test it beforehand, if it looks good we release it to the community. 6. Why not create a Janus layer which allows people to run Debian binaries without modifications??? I see Nexenta and Belenix seem to be looking into this. Maybe help Schillix in doing the same thing or at least getting the Blastwave packages ported to Schillix and the other distros? Maybe tag a funding price to what it would take Belenix, Nexenta, and Schillix to resolve some of their issues ($1K-5K USD). I think all of the other Solaris package maintainer groups should be contacted to see if they are still 'standing' and how they'd want to volunteer to help the cause. Whatever happpened to the NetBSD/Solaris collaboration effort and the 5000 packages?? The bottom line is to promote JDS and KDE solutions to the community and provide teams of people willing to build and port those solutions. I think the desktop summit had a lot to say about what they wanted to see in the desktop as well as David's notes on the OpenSolaris website. The community wants to see involvement and SUPPORT on both JDS/GNOME, KDE, Xfce (and put your favorite major UNIX desktop here). Whether from community groups or from Sun (which seems to be what started this thread). Excuse the soapbox rants, ~ Ken Mays --- Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alan DuBoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Shillix is interesting if for nothing else than Joerg Schilling is working on it. It is missing (but gathering) needed pieces for a complete system as well. Same with Belenix. All of these system are getting better though, this is good. A lot of people did promise to help with SchilliX but the main person (who offered to help with X) is now living together with his girlfriend. The way SchilliX extends may look strange for some people, but I am aproaching a target that is as Solaris compatible as possible and that will bring you all Blastwave packages soon. I need to convert the whole SchilliX installation/CD-generation into a pkg based system this takes some time in special when a lot of the time is spend on reading mail and on finding a way to get a funding for SchilliX. Once the pkg
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
ken mays [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 6. Why not create a Janus layer which allows people to run Debian binaries without modifications??? I see Nexenta and Belenix seem to be looking into this. Maybe help Schillix in doing the same thing or at least getting the Blastwave packages ported to Schillix and the other distros? Maybe tag a funding price to what it would take Belenix, Nexenta, and Schillix to resolve some of their issues ($1K-5K USD). I have absolutely no objections on using BrandZ on Schillix. And I have no objections on adding other software to SchilliX. I only have objections on replacing things in /usr/bin by other software. BTW: Janus is dead, BrandZ is a differnt project. I think all of the other Solaris package maintainer groups should be contacted to see if they are still 'standing' and how they'd want to volunteer to help the cause. Whatever happpened to the NetBSD/Solaris collaboration effort and the 5000 packages?? I am still in hope of a wider cooperation. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 07:23 am, ken mays wrote: 2. We say integrate, yet we did things different 1-4 years ago for a reason - mainly from community suggestions. KDE-gcc (me) and KDE-Sun Studio (Stefan) was a bit of a debate a few years ago as people wanted a GCC version of KDE since Sun Studio wasn't free until just a few months ago. Really? I don't remember me thinking like that, in fact I've always wanted a Sun Studio built version of my apps, so that things like the plugins worked in Firefox and Mozilla properly, and KDE was no different for me. This had nothing to do with being free. This had everything to do with function. -- Alan DuBoff - Sun Microsystems Solaris x86 Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Thursday 22 December 2005 05:20 am, Joerg Schilling wrote: Once the pkg conversion is ready with the first step and once X is available, 1300 Blastwave packages are ready to run on SchilliX. That's awesome! -- Alan DuBoff - Sun Microsystems Solaris x86 Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
--- Alan DuBoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 22 December 2005 07:23 am, ken mays wrote: 2. We say integrate, yet we did things different 1-4 years ago for a reason - mainly from community suggestions. KDE-gcc (me) and KDE-Sun Studio (Stefan) was a bit of a debate a few years ago as people wanted a GCC version of KDE since Sun Studio wasn't free until just a few months ago. Really? I don't remember me thinking like that, in fact I've always wanted a Sun Studio built version of my apps, so that things like the plugins worked in Firefox and Mozilla properly, and KDE was no different for me. This had nothing to do with being free. This had everything to do with function. -- Alan DuBoff - Sun Microsystems Solaris x86 Engineering This may be true for you, Alan, yet there were others who wanted a GCC version of KDE at the time as well. Since people wanted various things, various team members either built a GCC version or Sun Studio version of KDE. I think this debate lives in the mail archives of the kde solaris mail list. A question would be if people wanted to build apps for KDE, without having purchased Sun Studio, would it have been possible to a large degree of people?? I know there may have been trial copies back then. Not to get on the KDE pipelines, yet this was the dilemna of the GCC/Sun Studio C++ API/ABI issues - beyond the Qt commercial licensing issue people like to mention at the watercoolers. Really, i hope we don't burn to many atoms on the rights and wrongs of this thread - but on the solution(s). Stefan puts a lot of work into KDE (as well as other team members) and I've seen many threads of the JDS teams work which I am hoping to see. I know we talked of Suse/KDE and several other things, yet I think there were more reasons based on lower IT licensing and support costs than if Solaris had KDE or not. Really, we could have tossed around why not Xfce or (put your favorite major Unix desktop here) for the unified desktop in Germany or China - yet someone wanted to ask why Sun wasn't officially supporting KDE as a preferred desktop (or working with a partner/third-party to do so). This has been asked for several years - moreso than why are we using GCC versions of KDE instead of Sun Studio...(which back then, was on the companion CD like we've stated)!! Stefan seems to have delivered the answer that KDE was being updated on the Companion CD with Steve C.'s help and we have people willing to 'officially' support KDE on Solaris - with Sun's enginering assistance. Next question?? ;o ~ Ken Mays __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/22/05, ken mays [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stefan seems to have delivered the answer that KDE was being updated on the Companion CD with Steve C.'s help and we have people willing to 'officially' support KDE on Solaris - with Sun's enginering assistance i think with regard of support of the Companion CD, we can say that it is not a Sun supported product, but it is Community supported, if you run into trouble or have any questions, please post a message to insert mailing list here and the community will help on a best effort basis. very many open source software packages have functioned with this model for a very long time. --Stefan -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Tuesday 20 December 2005 08:32 pm, Glynn Foster wrote: It's really about resources issues. The desktop team within Sun is already swamped enough without having to look and fix issues with KDE as well. But yeah, I completely agree with you - having the ability for customers to install KDE off the companion CD or off some online package repository would be *ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC*. They just have to be made aware that there is no official Sun support of those components, but can be assured that the community will help as much as possible with any problems they might encounter. For someone like me that's actually fine. I've been running KDE as my desktop for the past 7 or 8 years, so I'd get the same support I would get in the future as I've been getting. It works for me. I'd still like to see one set of common libs for all applications to use. Maybe this is too far fetched... -- Alan DuBoff - Sun Microsystems Solaris x86 Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Tuesday 20 December 2005 08:37 pm, Glynn Foster wrote: Interesting. So you're going to swap your user base over to the KDE desktop? Or are you going to try and retro fit both into Nexenta? Won't that be a bit hard for a single CD? :/ Can't the bulk of packages be installed over the net? That's what I've always liked about Debian, install the smallest amount of needed code and then apt-get the rest that you need. It just works. I have said for years that if you had the Solaris kernel with gnu tools, we'd have the best of a couple worlds. While it could be argued that gnu tools are inadequate, I find them to be what the open source community is working on and where most improvements are happening (i.e., several distros use them, linux, *bsd, osx, et al). -- Alan DuBoff - Sun Microsystems Solaris x86 Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/20/05, Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having BOTH means giving users (actual and potential) a choice. It's really about resources issues. The desktop team within Sun is already swamped enough without having to look and fix issues with KDE as well. But yeah, I completely agree with you - having the ability for customers to install KDE off the companion CD or off some online package repository would be *ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC*. is Sun willing to at least give access to a SVN repository so the KDE Solaris port source code and the associated required libraries source code (which, by the way, are three times the size of what used to be the Companion CD) have a material presence at OpenSolaris, where people can actually collaborate and do work ? if that is not possible, then the current situation will not change, and will not improve. KDE can be downloaded right now off the 'Net, in its various shapes, forms and incarnations. having a real, collaborative engineering effort at OpenSolaris does not formally imply product support from Sun. --Stefan -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hi, On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 08:26 -0500, Stefan Teleman wrote: is Sun willing to at least give access to a SVN repository so the KDE Solaris port source code and the associated required libraries source code (which, by the way, are three times the size of what used to be the Companion CD) have a material presence at OpenSolaris, where people can actually collaborate and do work ? if that is not possible, then the current situation will not change, and will not improve. KDE can be downloaded right now off the 'Net, in its various shapes, forms and incarnations. having a real, collaborative engineering effort at OpenSolaris does not formally imply product support from Sun. Sure, why not...it's a community project afterall, and if there's value of storing build infrastructure, patches or otherwise on opensolaris.org, I'll make every effort to help make that development as open as humanly possible and I know others will too. Ideally you should be working with the upstream community as much as possible, but I'm sure you're aware of that for your own sakes. But you're the guys with the KDE experience - it's your ship, you need to steer it. It's not 'us' against 'you' [1] - we're all in this together, and once the infrastructure is online, community momentum is very much reliant on people picking up tasks and running with them. We're just at the unfortunate point in time where the infrastructure isn't where we'd like it to be - everyone is counting on it, and I'm sure it'll gradually get there. Glynn [1] If it feels like that, there's something that we're all doing wrong, and you should *totally* speak up with issues or suggestions of what we need to be doing ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 00:47 +1100, Glynn Foster wrote: Hey, On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 02:30 -0800, Alan DuBoff wrote: On Tuesday 20 December 2005 08:37 pm, Glynn Foster wrote: Interesting. So you're going to swap your user base over to the KDE desktop? Or are you going to try and retro fit both into Nexenta? Won't that be a bit hard for a single CD? :/ Can't the bulk of packages be installed over the net? That's what I've always liked about Debian, install the smallest amount of needed code and then apt-get the rest that you need. It just works. Yeah, it just wasn't obvious from the comments in the email, that I thought it would be good to clarify. For the purposes of a Live CD though, you have to be careful about what default set of packages you make available to entice people to play around with and install afterwards - certainly not an easy task my any means. Oh, no. Nexenta LiveCD is not going to change. I was talking about InstallCD which has 350MB free space, so it should fit KDE as well. The rest will be downloadable through the APT repository. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/20/05, Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having BOTH means giving users (actual and potential) a choice. It's really about resources issues. The desktop team within Sun is already swamped enough without having to look and fix issues with KDE as well. But yeah, I completely agree with you - having the ability for customers to install KDE off the companion CD or off some online package repository would be *ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC*. is Sun willing to at least give access to a SVN repository so the KDE Solaris port source code and the associated required libraries source code (which, by the way, are three times the size of what used to be the Companion CD) have a material presence at OpenSolaris, where people can actually collaborate and do work ? Would it be possible to base your KDE build on Blastwave libraries? As the most actively maintained set for Solaris, I can see them moving towards becoming de facto standards. If this were to happen, I think you KDE would become more popular. Glynn, could the same be done with JDS? Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 05:47 am, Glynn Foster wrote: Hey, On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 02:30 -0800, Alan DuBoff wrote: On Tuesday 20 December 2005 08:37 pm, Glynn Foster wrote: Interesting. So you're going to swap your user base over to the KDE desktop? Or are you going to try and retro fit both into Nexenta? Won't that be a bit hard for a single CD? :/ Can't the bulk of packages be installed over the net? That's what I've always liked about Debian, install the smallest amount of needed code and then apt-get the rest that you need. It just works. Yeah, it just wasn't obvious from the comments in the email, that I thought it would be good to clarify. For the purposes of a Live CD though, you have to be careful about what default set of packages you make available to entice people to play around with and install afterwards - certainly not an easy task my any means. While I currently only have one Linux system at home, it's being phased out into a gaming machine for my sun...maybe by this weekend...;-) I have used Linux and Embedded Linux quite a bit in the past, and some cases the client would dictate which platform you used. I would always use Debian as my personal Linux, and as such presented problems installing certain packages in regard to that. It doesn't take that long to get a good chunk of what you need with a few commands, and to update and dist-upgrade would take you current at any point. If you're missing something, an apt-get grabs it with the dependancies. This system works very well. The problem with Nexentra is that many of the standard packages of Debian are not ported at this time. They seem to have taken quite a leap, and are well on their way. I think Shillix is interesting if for nothing else than Joerg Schilling is working on it. It is missing (but gathering) needed pieces for a complete system as well. Same with Belenix. All of these system are getting better though, this is good. -- Alan DuBoff - Sun Microsystems Solaris x86 Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to base your KDE build on Blastwave libraries? No. --Stefan -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to base your KDE build on Blastwave libraries? As the most actively maintained set for Solaris, I can see them moving towards becoming de facto standards. Blastave is *not* the de fact standard for anything on Solaris. At least not insofar as solaris.kde.org is concerned. There is currently no de facto, or de jure, standard for open source packages on Solaris. There are *several* distributions of GNU/OpenSource packages for Solaris, each one of them with their advangages and their disadvantages. To ascertain a priori on this forum that somehow Blastwave is a primus inter pares amongst GNU/OpenSource Solaris distributions is a matter of personal opinion, and not everyone is required, or expected to share it. I do not share in this opinion, and i have objective reasons for not sharing this opinion. I can explain these reasons upon request. If this were to happen, I think you KDE would become more popular. KDE is doing quite well on its own merits, with, or without Blastwave. Stefan Teleman -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to base your KDE build on Blastwave libraries? As the most actively maintained set for Solaris, I can see them moving towards becoming de facto standards. Blastave is *not* the de fact standard for anything on Solaris. At least not insofar as solaris.kde.org is concerned. I didn't say it was, but I'd wager it's the most widely deployed. There is currently no de facto, or de jure, standard for open source packages on Solaris. There are *several* distributions of GNU/OpenSource packages for Solaris, each one of them with their advangages and their disadvantages. I didn't say there were. To ascertain a priori on this forum that somehow Blastwave is a primus inter pares amongst GNU/OpenSource Solaris distributions is a matter of personal opinion, and not everyone is required, or expected to share it. I do not share in this opinion, and i have objective reasons for not sharing this opinion. I can explain these reasons upon request. I didn't say anything other than it was my opinion. Why the hostility, when I only asked a polite question? Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why the hostility, when I only asked a polite question? I find this incessant Blastwave promotion patently unfair. How come none of the Blastwave promoters ever mentions the work done by Steve Christensen with Sunfreeware, or the work done by The Written Word ? And i am quite certain they are others i forget right now. There was a time, not so long ago, when Sunfreeware was the *only* where GNU/OpenSource software for Solaris was available for download. Sunfreeware *still* maintains and publishes packages for Solaris, on both X86 and SPARC. So does The Written Word. The reason i am involved with KDE and OpenSolaris is because i believe that individuals are entitled to certain freedom rights insofar as software is concerned, and because i believe that freedom, openness, honesty and fair play foster creativity and innovation. Openness, honesty and fair play carry a responsibility on the part of those involved in free software: one must be willing to take a back seat in this show, because the show is not about particular distributions, or individuals, but about freedom, innovation and creativity. --Stefan -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why the hostility, when I only asked a polite question? I find this incessant Blastwave promotion patently unfair. How come none of the Blastwave promoters ever mentions the work done by Steve Christensen with Sunfreeware, or the work done by The Written Word ? And i am quite certain they are others i forget right now. While I have never used The Written Word, I have used and promoted Sunfreeware over the years. I just use what's best for me, which at the moment requires some form of automatic update. There was a time, not so long ago, when Sunfreeware was the *only* where GNU/OpenSource software for Solaris was available for download. Sunfreeware *still* maintains and publishes packages for Solaris, on both X86 and SPARC. So does The Written Word. I have no problem with that. If the shoe fits, use it. The reason i am involved with KDE and OpenSolaris is because i believe that individuals are entitled to certain freedom rights insofar as software is concerned, and because i believe that freedom, openness, honesty and fair play foster creativity and innovation. Openness, honesty and fair play carry a responsibility on the part of those involved in free software: one must be willing to take a back seat in this show, because the show is not about particular distributions, or individuals, but about freedom, innovation and creativity. Don't forget how Blastwave started, it grew as a community effort and it still is. One look at the list of maintainers shows this. Maybe what we require from all the distributions is a common means of identifying versions, so a package installer can search for package Xversion Y on the system, regardless of its origin. This would be a start in cleaning what appears to an outsider to be the messy situation of conflicting version of the same application. Then you wouldn't have to spend your time keeping the KDE dependencies up to date. Freedom can also be freedom for the drudgery of maintaining thins you require, rather than those you want to build and grow. I know, I've been there. I'd love to use your version of KDE, you do a superb job with KDE on Solaris. But as I have to pay for bandwidth, I don't want yet another set of packages to administer on my system. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 20:25, Ian Collins wrote: Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why the hostility, when I only asked a polite question? I find this incessant Blastwave promotion patently unfair. How come none of the Blastwave promoters ever mentions the work done by Steve Christensen with Sunfreeware, or the work done by The Written Word ? And i am quite certain they are others i forget right now. While I have never used The Written Word, I have used and promoted Sunfreeware over the years. I just use what's best for me, which at the moment requires some form of automatic update. There was a time, not so long ago, when Sunfreeware was the *only* where GNU/OpenSource software for Solaris was available for download. Sunfreeware *still* maintains and publishes packages for Solaris, on both X86 and SPARC. So does The Written Word. I have no problem with that. If the shoe fits, use it. The reason i am involved with KDE and OpenSolaris is because i believe that individuals are entitled to certain freedom rights insofar as software is concerned, and because i believe that freedom, openness, honesty and fair play foster creativity and innovation. Openness, honesty and fair play carry a responsibility on the part of those involved in free software: one must be willing to take a back seat in this show, because the show is not about particular distributions, or individuals, but about freedom, innovation and creativity. Don't forget how Blastwave started, it grew as a community effort and it still is. One look at the list of maintainers shows this. Maybe what we require from all the distributions is a common means of identifying versions, so a package installer can search for package Xversion Y on the system, regardless of its origin. This would be a start in cleaning what appears to an outsider to be the messy situation of conflicting version of the same application. Not just an outider Ian. It is a mess. One of the biggest problems I have with blastwave is that if, for example, I want to install blastwave's openldap package, I'm forced to install the unixodbc package as well and their version of OpenSSL. Why? I don't need unixodbc for an LDAP server and Sun provides an OpenSSL version as part of the OS, but the Openldap package as provided by Blastwave requires unixodbc and their version of OpenSSL. And why is freetype required? Does it offer something extra? Why does an LDAP server require a font engine? Bloat, it's a problem that blastwave appears to encourage or at least tolerate. Disk space may be cheap, but the time that's required to juggle all this isn't. John Then you wouldn't have to spend your time keeping the KDE dependencies up to date. Freedom can also be freedom for the drudgery of maintaining thins you require, rather than those you want to build and grow. I know, I've been there. I'd love to use your version of KDE, you do a superb job with KDE on Solaris. But as I have to pay for bandwidth, I don't want yet another set of packages to administer on my system. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This would be a start in cleaning what appears to an outsider to be the messy situation of conflicting version of the same application. Then you wouldn't have to spend your time keeping the KDE dependencies up to date. Freedom can also be freedom for the drudgery of maintaining thins you require, rather than those you want to build and grow. I know, I've been there. There is nothing i would like more than for all of us involved in this to finally agree on a set of standards, and follow them. That means *all* of us. I have asked this very exact question 6 months ago, on this forum. What was the response ? Does anyone remember ? If my recollections are correct, of all the parties of whom the question was asked, only two answered. one of them was OpenSolaris (a.k.a. Glen), the other one was solaris.kde.org. (a.k.a. yours truly). Blastwave chose to stay silent. --Stefan -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This would be a start in cleaning what appears to an outsider to be the messy situation of conflicting version of the same application. Then you wouldn't have to spend your time keeping the KDE dependencies up to date. Freedom can also be freedom for the drudgery of maintaining thins you require, rather than those you want to build and grow. I know, I've been there. There is nothing i would like more than for all of us involved in this to finally agree on a set of standards, and follow them. That means *all* of us. I have asked this very exact question 6 months ago, on this forum. What was the response ? Does anyone remember ? If my recollections are correct, of all the parties of whom the question was asked, only two answered. one of them was OpenSolaris (a.k.a. Glen), the other one was solaris.kde.org. (a.k.a. yours truly). Blastwave chose to stay silent. --Stefan To me, the most important bits are these: 1) compiled for the OS build I want to run on to avoid duplicate libs. 2) compiled with modern CPU support (eg SSE2, SSE3, etc). 3) compiled with all X extensions that OS revs supports 4) Source packages (as compiled) and build infrastructure available so that binary bits can be replicated. - Bart -- Bart Smaalders Solaris Kernel Performance [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blogs.sun.com/barts ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This would be a start in cleaning what appears to an outsider to be the messy situation of conflicting version of the same application. Then you wouldn't have to spend your time keeping the KDE dependencies up to date. Freedom can also be freedom for the drudgery of maintaining thins you require, rather than those you want to build and grow. I know, I've been there. There is nothing i would like more than for all of us involved in this to finally agree on a set of standards, and follow them. That means *all* of us. I have asked this very exact question 6 months ago, on this forum. Yes I remember that well and as you say, nothing has happened in the interim. So, how can we move forward? Any common system must include Sun Solaris packages as well, to avoid the silly situation John raised. Defining a means of identifying packages isn't hard, an agreed file format and location should be all that is required. This can be a simple text or XML file with the name, version and location of each package. It could be appended to by a package post-install script and scanned by a pre-install script to check the system for required dependencies. Have I over simplified the problem and solution? If not, let's take this forward. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Ian Collins wrote: Stefan Teleman wrote: [...] involved in free software: one must be willing to take a back seat in this show, because the show is not about particular distributions, or individuals, but about freedom, innovation and creativity. Don't forget how Blastwave started, it grew as a community effort and it still is. One look at the list of maintainers shows this. Maybe what we require from all the distributions is a common means of identifying versions, so a package installer can search for package Xversion Y on the system, regardless of its origin. I have been pointing this out for a while. Right now all the dependencies are based on package names which fosters duplication. Instead we need to have dependencies based on standard exported (by some means) module names. This is what is done by the Provides and Requires clauses in RPM. So in my SuSE installation for example it does not matter where I got an RPM package from. It can still be used by another RPM package from another source. Another wild idea it to use something like a stripped down configure script to check for dependencies. This will not require standard module naming. Regards, Moinak. This would be a start in cleaning what appears to an outsider to be the messy situation of conflicting version of the same application. Then you wouldn't have to spend your time keeping the KDE dependencies up to date. Freedom can also be freedom for the drudgery of maintaining thins you require, rather than those you want to build and grow. I know, I've been there. I'd love to use your version of KDE, you do a superb job with KDE on Solaris. But as I have to pay for bandwidth, I don't want yet another set of packages to administer on my system. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This would be a start in cleaning what appears to an outsider to be the messy situation of conflicting version of the same application. Then you wouldn't have to spend your time keeping the KDE dependencies up to date. Freedom can also be freedom for the drudgery of maintaining thins you require, rather than those you want to build and grow. I know, I've been there. There is nothing i would like more than for all of us involved in this to finally agree on a set of standards, and follow them. That means *all* of us. I have asked this very exact question 6 months ago, on this forum. Looks like this got lost: Yes I remember that well and as you say, nothing has happened in the interim. So, how can we move forward? Any common system must include Sun Solaris packages as well, to avoid the silly situation John raised. Defining a means of identifying packages isn't hard, an agreed file format and location should be all that is required. This can be a simple text or XML file with the name, version and location of each package. It could be appended to by a package post-install script and scanned by a pre-install script to check the system for required dependencies. Have I over simplified the problem and solution? If not, let's take this forward. Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/21/05, Ian Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes I remember that well and as you say, nothing has happened in the interim. So, how can we move forward? Any common system must include Sun Solaris packages as well, to avoid the silly situation John raised. Defining a means of identifying packages isn't hard, an agreed file format and location should be all that is required. This can be a simple text or XML file with the name, version and location of each package. It could be appended to by a package post-install script and scanned by a pre-install script to check the system for required dependencies. Have I over simplified the problem and solution? If not, let's take this forward. a bit, i think. i think GNU/OpenSource packages fall into three broad top-level categories: 0. software which never updates (example: gettextlib, which is considered done) 1. software for which updates are possible, but do not occur often (example: gdbm) 2. software which updates frequently (example: gstreamer) these three categories can each be further divided into three: 10. core (example: GNU fileutils) 11. application-specific dependency (example ffmpeg, which by itself is not very useful, but is required by Xine and many others) 12. toplevel application, which depends on 10 and 11 (example: Xine) and then there is the broad category of large-scale distributions, like GNOME and KDE, which have dependencies on all the types of software mentioned above, but which are also self-contained frameworks, with their own set of internal dependencies. i actually gave this some thought over the past few months. here's what i came up with, and this is just a suggestion. if it were up to me, i would build a relational database which describes: 0. each individual package, which has foreign key relationships to all the categories it belongs to 1. relationships between packages listed in 0, expressed as lookup tables based on unique numeric id's the advantages of doing this are: - managed inventory - well defined package categories - well defined package dependencies - a large scale package download (for example GNOME) becomes a join, and can be expressed as a checkbox on a GUI installer. figuring out what packages to install happens automagically behind the scenes, with the join, the user only clicks on Install GNOME. - RPATH (which is an expression of dependencies) is also a join - no unnecessary downloads (they won't be part of the join) in terms of the actuall installation tool, i personally like very much Sun's WebStart install, which is used by the Companion CD. it's written in Java, it's GUI driven, therefore it's easy to use for installs, and it's also easy for uninstalls. if i were to implement this, i would do it in PostgreSQL on the backend and WebStart as the frontend. the user will only have to download a small Java application which is the installer driver, and presents them with a list of package choices. users can choose to only install a small package (for example gdbm) with one click, or they can choose to install the entire KDE with one click, or only install the fundamental modules of KDE plus just two additional modules with one click for the KDE foundation modules and two for each of the additionals. of course, the Java installer should also support command-line installs as well (for example: java-installer --nogui --list-packages followed by java-installer --nogui --install JDS --version 3.2.2). this also has the advantage of providing GPL compliance out of the box. the user can click a radio button labeled install source for anything they choose to install (for the GUI), and for the command line it's just an additional option: --install-source just my 0.02. --Stefan -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hey, On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 09:10 +1300, Ian Collins wrote: Would it be possible to base your KDE build on Blastwave libraries? As the most actively maintained set for Solaris, I can see them moving towards becoming de facto standards. If this were to happen, I think you KDE would become more popular. Glynn, could the same be done with JDS? Effectively we all are basing our builds on other stuff - the upstream community eg. GNOME, Mozilla, KDE, ... I'd love to see us unifying the stack, it makes a huge amount of sense from a development point of view. However, it's not so easy - there's package names to think about for a start. A lot of the ARC commitments we've made previously may conflict with basing things off Blastwave. We also need to think about unifying the build systems, the dependency chain, and coming up with some sort of package management story. All relatively hard problems in themselves let alone trying to tackle them all at once. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hey, On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 20:57 -0600, John Weekley wrote: Not just an outider Ian. It is a mess. One of the biggest problems I have with blastwave is that if, for example, I want to install blastwave's openldap package, I'm forced to install the unixodbc package as well and their version of OpenSSL. Why? I don't need unixodbc for an LDAP server and Sun provides an OpenSSL version as part of the OS, but the Openldap package as provided by Blastwave requires unixodbc and their version of OpenSSL. And why is freetype required? Does it offer something extra? Why does an LDAP server require a font engine? Bloat, it's a problem that blastwave appears to encourage or at least tolerate. Disk space may be cheap, but the time that's required to juggle all this isn't. That's one of the issues I have with Blastwave, through no fault of their own really. They had a dependency on a given component that may already be in Solaris but is either the wrong version, or contains incompatible API - rather than fixing it at the source [1], they provided their own package. Going forward, we need to change this - everyone needs to have a conscience of not taking the easy way out. We need to work as a team, as a community and prove it to ourselves that we can get out of this mess. I'm keen - anyone else? :) Glynn [1] Which is actually understandable given the huge amount of effort to do this in terms of time, ARC, and access to the Solaris source code ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Moinak Ghosh wrote: Ian Collins wrote: Stefan Teleman wrote: [...] involved in free software: one must be willing to take a back seat in this show, because the show is not about particular distributions, or individuals, but about freedom, innovation and creativity. Don't forget how Blastwave started, it grew as a community effort and it still is. One look at the list of maintainers shows this. Maybe what we require from all the distributions is a common means of identifying versions, so a package installer can search for package Xversion Y on the system, regardless of its origin. I have been pointing this out for a while. Right now all the dependencies are based on package names which fosters duplication. Instead we need to have dependencies based on standard exported (by some means) module names. OK, maybe a starting point would be to agree on a package naming convention. I know this won't be easy, if you look back though the archives of the SolarisX86 Yahoo list, you will see how much wrangling went on before the CSW name was agreed for Blastwave packages. Mind you, much of that related to the directory name. Any suggestions an how an agreement could be reached? Could it work with just the package name being common and still having SFW, CSW, SUNW etc. packages? I don't see why not. Another wild idea it to use something like a stripped down configure script to check for dependencies. This will not require standard module naming. Wouldn't that require consistent library names and version numbering? Or maybe something like what(1) could be used (is there an equivalent for CVS files?)? Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 15:05 -0800, Alan DuBoff wrote: If you're missing something, an apt-get grabs it with the dependancies. This system works very well. The problem with Nexentra is that many of the standard packages of Debian are not ported at this time. They seem to have taken quite a leap, and are well on their way. true. but we are getting there. Nexenta Alpha 2 will likely have 3500+ packages available for immediate download. Meanwhile, one could search package sources at http://packages.ubuntu.com download *.tar.gz and *.diff.gz extract it, and do dpkg-buildpackage. Example with mplayer: $ wget -c http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/multiverse/m/mplayer/mplayer_1.0-pre7cvs20050716.orig.tar.gz $ wget -c http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/multiverse/m/mplayer/mplayer_1.0-pre7cvs20050716-0.1ubuntu9.diff.gz $ tar xzvf mplayer*.tar.gz $ cd mplayer-1.0-pre7 $ gzcat ../mplayer*.diff.gz | patch -p0 $ dpkg-buildpackage (coffe time) $ cd .. $ dpkg -i *.deb Note: all steps above assuming that you have working build environment and compiled and installed all mplayer requirements (see mplayer*/debian/control meta). i.e. pretty much any package from 18000+ packages of Ubuntu/Breezy will work *as is* or with minimal changes. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Glynn Foster wrote: Hey, On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 10:47 -0800, Keith M Wesolowski wrote: It's never correct to choose tools and then try to fit a process to them. Ignoring the fundamental problems with that approach, the immediate practical question is If I'm not choosing tools to support a process, on what criteria will I base that selection? In practice the answers tend to fall into two categories: inertia and fad worship. We're explicitly not allowing inertia to drive the choice: TeamWare in its current form fails to meet the essential requirements; it's clear that these were not written with the advance intent to select TeamWare. Fad worship is at best shortsighted and intellectually lazy, entirely inappropriate for a project team desirous of long-term success. You're absolutely right. You can't choose the tools without a process, but neither can you choose a process without the tools. Maybe I'm taking an overly simplistic view of how to approach this, but there's been very little discussion on how the *process* is actually supposed to work. Is there _A_ process? Or does each consolidation follow its own? Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 16:52 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Erast Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I woudn't underestimate Linus's Torvalds opinion... A lot of OSS developers looking at what he is saying and following him no matter what. I agree it will not change picture much, but KDE will definetly benefit from newcomers.. How many catholics will avoid to use the pill just because the pope recommends not to use it? Who knows? But the point is, KDE is quite mature and widely used, and decent OpenSolaris-based distro must have it *integrated* (i.e. not just like third-party /opt/csw...). btw, NexentaOS Alpha 2 will have it integrated and derived from Kubuntu/Breezy. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How many catholics will avoid to use the pill just because the pope recommends not to use it? i don't use the pill and i am catholic. is that bad ? --Stefan -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Joerg Schilling wrote: Erast Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I woudn't underestimate Linus's Torvalds opinion... A lot of OSS developers looking at what he is saying and following him no matter what. I agree it will not change picture much, but KDE will definetly benefit from newcomers.. How many catholics will avoid to use the pill just because the pope recommends not to use it? Let me tell you one thing Joerg: the very *last* topic you ever want to mention on an OpenSolaris mailing list is *religion*. Nothing will get you into more hot water. Puhhleeezzeee stay on topic! Pretty Please! :) PS: Being from Ireland, I had the pleasure of hearing an Australian girl describe it (Ireland) as The Land Of Babies! So I appreciate your sense of humor but please, no religious references on this list! Regards, Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT OpenSolaris.Org Community Advisory Board (CAB) Member - Apr 2005 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hey, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 12:59 +, Brian Nitz wrote: I'm sure there are other areas where GNOME has an advantage over KDE. I hope Opensolaris distributions based on KDE, Looking glass and other open source desktops become available but if everyone played by the rules and followed proper procurement directives, GNOME would have a decent chance of winning government desktops. Just so that everyone knows, I'm totally keen for people to take on sub-communities under the main Desktop Community umbrella - I know there's a set of KDE pages coming at some stage, and the Looking Glass dudes are working on their own set of pages. If there are any other Desktop Communities out there, I'd love to hear from them and feature them on opensolaris.org [1] Glynn [1] We may need to rethink the the differences between Project and Community a little bit - I'm not sure of the overlap myself and how best to manage it. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Al Hopper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Joerg Schilling wrote: Erast Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I woudn't underestimate Linus's Torvalds opinion... A lot of OSS developers looking at what he is saying and following him no matter what. I agree it will not change picture much, but KDE will definetly benefit from newcomers.. How many catholics will avoid to use the pill just because the pope recommends not to use it? Let me tell you one thing Joerg: the very *last* topic you ever want to mention on an OpenSolaris mailing list is *religion*. Nothing will get you into more hot water. Could you then tell me please why you did not intervene to the mail I was replying to? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
If I remember correctly, the story really evolved around lowering budgeting costs from MS to a lower cost solution (not anything to do with a Solaris battle). Suse being HQ in German kinda helped in that discussion. KDE was one of the primary desktops so it kinda went in that direction. Both KDE and GNOME have their merits and I'd hope any desktop OS environment would allow the consumers to use applications from either desktop environment. China and most Asian countries didn't choose Suse for its OS selection. I'd think even if a government or education institute chooses one desktop environment over another, they provide the libraries needed to run applications from the other major desktop environment. The benefit of BOTH GNOME and KDE is in the modern open source applications developed for those desktop environments. Really, having both GNOME and KDE available is a better choice in the long run as it opens up more open source software to the consumer no matter which major UNIX desktop environment they chose in the end. Ken Mays --- Erast Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 16:52 +0100, Joerg Schilling wrote: Erast Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I woudn't underestimate Linus's Torvalds opinion... A lot of OSS developers looking at what he is saying and following him no matter what. I agree it will not change picture much, but KDE will definetly benefit from newcomers.. How many catholics will avoid to use the pill just because the pope recommends not to use it? Who knows? But the point is, KDE is quite mature and widely used, and decent OpenSolaris-based distro must have it *integrated* (i.e. not just like third-party /opt/csw...). btw, NexentaOS Alpha 2 will have it integrated and derived from Kubuntu/Breezy. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/20/05, ken mays [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The benefit of BOTH GNOME and KDE is in the modern open source applications developed for those desktop environments. Really, having both GNOME and KDE available is a better choice in the long run as it opens up more open source software to the consumer no matter which major UNIX desktop environment they chose in the end. in my mind, this is about choice. we all want Solaris/OpenSolaris to be the Desktop of choice (yes, some may say that i am being unrealistic here, but i have my reasons for really believing this is possible). i remember the times when having a Sun Workstation on your desk was Da Bomb. this is *not* about My Desktop Is Better Than Your Desktop. if it's too difficult to support both GNOME and KDE within Sun, why can't the Desktop Project be split ? GNOME/JDS within Sun and KDE outside Sun. Having BOTH means giving users (actual and potential) a choice. --Stefan -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hey, if it's too difficult to support both GNOME and KDE within Sun, why can't the Desktop Project be split ? GNOME/JDS within Sun and KDE outside Sun. Having BOTH means giving users (actual and potential) a choice. It's really about resources issues. The desktop team within Sun is already swamped enough without having to look and fix issues with KDE as well. But yeah, I completely agree with you - having the ability for customers to install KDE off the companion CD or off some online package repository would be *ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC*. They just have to be made aware that there is no official Sun support of those components, but can be assured that the community will help as much as possible with any problems they might encounter. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hey, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 13:51 -0800, Erast Benson wrote: But the point is, KDE is quite mature and widely used, and decent OpenSolaris-based distro must have it *integrated* (i.e. not just like third-party /opt/csw...). btw, NexentaOS Alpha 2 will have it integrated and derived from Kubuntu/Breezy. Interesting. So you're going to swap your user base over to the KDE desktop? Or are you going to try and retro fit both into Nexenta? Won't that be a bit hard for a single CD? :/ Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Felix Schulte wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. Why is the requirement KDE? Is the requirement for specific functionality that GNOME doesn't offer? Or do they specify a desktop whose name is spelled exactly KDE? That would appear to be on the wrong side of the law governing European tenders of any kind. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Felix Schulte wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. Why is the requirement KDE? Is the requirement for specific functionality that GNOME doesn't offer? Or do they specify a desktop whose name is spelled exactly KDE? That would appear to be on the wrong side of the law governing European tenders of any kind. Exactly. Sole source tenders for publicly funded software projects are evil and in many cases illegal. It doesn't matter whether the RFP favors Microsoft, linux, a specific distribution or a specific desktop, it eventually transfers public tax money via a non-competitive process which favors monopolies.Alternative vendors and communities must become involved early in procurement in order to make the advantages of alternatives known. If I see a tender specifying KDE or SuSE for a new desktop project I would suggest more detail in the tender such as: - Accessibility (A11Y) support shall... - Internationalization Localization support (i18n/L10n) should be available for the following... - Documentation should be complete and available in (X) languages. I'm sure there are other areas where GNOME has an advantage over KDE. I hope Opensolaris distributions based on KDE, Looking glass and other open source desktops become available but if everyone played by the rules and followed proper procurement directives, GNOME would have a decent chance of winning government desktops. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Brian Nitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure there are other areas where GNOME has an advantage over KDE. For example PDF rendering. I hope Opensolaris distributions based on KDE, Looking glass and other open source desktops become available but if everyone played by the rules and followed proper procurement directives, GNOME would have a decent chance of winning government desktops. Are you actually trying to publicly suggest that GNOME/JDS has not succeeded because of unfair competitive practices by KDE e.V. Stefan Teleman -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Glynn Foster writes: Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. Given the sheer amount of resources that we've already thrown into GNOME, I feel that it would be almost impossible to throw equal resources into KDE as well. Having 2 desktops really doesn't make any sense from a business point of view - goodness knows we already have *4* CD's already, which is way too many. If there's stuff about GNOME that isn't getting us deals [1] then we need to start tackling those issues and figuring out what we need to improve. That's actually not the big problem here. The big problem is the NxM matrix that adopting a new desktop causes. If we can't pick one official desktop, then every single application with any sort of user interface is forced to deliver (and test and support) N different sets of integration hooks, look-and-feel bits, and configuration mechanisms. The result is chaos: poor and uneven results when choosing different desktops (e.g., application A works fine with desktop X, and B with Y, but A doesn't work right on Y and B doesn't work on X), and fewer good products released because project teams are forced to waste time on multiple standards. I wouldn't count myself as a fan of GNOME -- I'm currently using twm with m4 to process my .twmrc because GNOME definitely doesn't meet my needs -- but I still think it'd be far worse to have more than one official answer here. (The issue with the German government and other buyers is something that ought to be escalated properly. If it's a real problem, it shouldn't just be left to fester.) -- James Carlson, KISS Network[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/19/05, Brian Nitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure there are other areas where GNOME has an advantage over KDE. For example PDF rendering. I hope Opensolaris distributions based on KDE, Looking glass and other open source desktops become available but if everyone played by the rules and followed proper procurement directives, GNOME would have a decent chance of winning government desktops. Are you actually trying to publicly suggest that GNOME/JDS has not succeeded because of unfair competitive practices by KDE e.V. ??? I'm trying to publicly suggest that as long as 30-50% of what I earn and at least 20% what I spend goes to taxes, I expect that the public bodies responsible for spending those taxes does so in a fair and transparent manner. Public technology procurement decisions should be based on whether the proposal meets the requirements and serves the common good for the least cost. Desktop or distribution religious affinity should never come into consideration. Stefan Teleman -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Felix, Thanks for the heads up and thanks for your participation in the open solaris community. I was wondering if you can point me to documentation which dwells upon the German Government's propensity to favor KDE. Best Regards Shantnu Felix Schulte wrote: Sun's choice of only shipping Gnome has serious impact for the (Open)Solaris acceptance. Just one example: In Germany KDE is the the de facto standard for the government open source desktop and the decision makers here feel SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF (apologies for the strong language, but this is how the people feel who are currently doing the MS-Windows-To-Linux transition in the German parliament) by Sun's attempt to sell them Gnome instead. Sun would be in a much better position if KDE would be an officially supported desktop choice - and as long as Sun does not offer it it will not get much more desktop installations in the German government (that's why Suse Linux got most of the cake). Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org -- -- Shantnu Sharma Development Manager, Operating Platforms Group Burlington, MA [EMAIL PROTECTED] 978.239.8154 Cell 781.442.2370 Work ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Erast Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I woudn't underestimate Linus's Torvalds opinion... A lot of OSS developers looking at what he is saying and following him no matter what. I agree it will not change picture much, but KDE will definetly benefit from newcomers.. How many catholics will avoid to use the pill just because the pope recommends not to use it? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-mktg] Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Felix Schulte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The Why do you believe this? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
One of the best and worst things I found about X-windows is that the window manager is not an integral part of the specification. This has allowed window manager development to florish and stagnate. Openwindows, Motif came and went. I hung on to FVWM for it's lightweight nature for quite awhile. Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html I believe that we shouldn't get ourselves lost into the pissing contest. However, I do feel that OpenSolaris should have both JDS and KDE as an user option. Personally, I find both bloatware, but I'd rather not be caught on the wrong side of this battle and have fodder for the bad mouthers. Gary This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 13:02, Gary Gendel wrote: Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. I really don't see how this effects JDS or OpenSolaris. It just one guy's opinion not some edict from above. Bill Rushmore www.rushmores.net ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/18/05, Gary Gendel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the best and worst things I found about X-windows is that the window manager is no big deal ... I like OpenWindows still on Solaris 8 . I like xfce . I like GNOME and JDS , and I like KDE and I like the vt100 terminal. This guy Linus has long since worn out his usefulness. My opinion. Dennis ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 15:53 -0500, Bill Rushmore wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 13:02, Gary Gendel wrote: Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. I really don't see how this effects JDS or OpenSolaris. It just one guy's opinion not some edict from above. I woudn't underestimate Linus's Torvalds opinion... A lot of OSS developers looking at what he is saying and following him no matter what. I agree it will not change picture much, but KDE will definetly benefit from newcomers.. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 02:06:07PM -0800, Erast Benson wrote: I woudn't underestimate Linus's Torvalds opinion... A lot of OSS developers looking at what he is saying and following him no matter what. I agree it will not change picture much, but KDE will definetly benefit from newcomers.. I've long concidered Gnome to be broken-by-design and continued to be surprised by its popularity. It seemed determined to copy the worst aspects of Windows while not providing any kind of positive benefits in compensation. The very idea of a desktop interface is very 1970s and we should have moved on by now to a real document orientated interface. -- Geoff Lane Today's Excuse: The Usenet news is out of date ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Geoff Lane wrote: The very idea of a desktop interface is very 1970s and we should have moved on by now to a real document orientated interface. Such as? Ian ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 16:37, Ian Collins wrote: Geoff Lane wrote: The very idea of a desktop interface is very 1970s and we should have moved on by now to a real document orientated interface. Such as? Ian OS/2! :-) Bill Rushmore www.rushmores.net ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/18/05, Gary Gendel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that we shouldn't get ourselves lost into the pissing contest. However, I do feel that OpenSolaris should have both JDS and KDE as an user option. Personally, I find both bloatware, but I'd rather not be caught on the wrong side of this battle and have fodder for the bad mouthers. So what do people think about bypassing X and toolkits altogether and using the JNI to write the interfaces for apps in dirty Java? I've noticed some of the Sun developed Solaris apps appear to have moved that way in recent years. Too wasteful? Dave ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hey, On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 10:02 -0800, Gary Gendel wrote: I believe that we shouldn't get ourselves lost into the pissing contest. However, I do feel that OpenSolaris should have both JDS and KDE as an user option. Personally, I find both bloatware, but I'd rather not be caught on the wrong side of this battle and have fodder for the bad mouthers. Nothing to stop us getting a list of good KDE packages ready [like Ken has already done], but I think you'll be pushing up a hill to get KDE installed by default, but absolutely no reason why we can't have a set of kick arse KDE packages on the companion CD [or better still, online package repository]. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/18/05, Bill Rushmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 13:02, Gary Gendel wrote: Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. I really don't see how this effects JDS or OpenSolaris. It just one guy's opinion not some edict from above. Sun's choice of only shipping Gnome has serious impact for the (Open)Solaris acceptance. Just one example: In Germany KDE is the the de facto standard for the government open source desktop and the decision makers here feel SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF (apologies for the strong language, but this is how the people feel who are currently doing the MS-Windows-To-Linux transition in the German parliament) by Sun's attempt to sell them Gnome instead. Sun would be in a much better position if KDE would be an officially supported desktop choice - and as long as Sun does not offer it it will not get much more desktop installations in the German government (that's why Suse Linux got most of the cake). Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
--- Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 10:02 -0800, Gary Gendel wrote: I believe that we shouldn't get ourselves lost into the pissing contest. However, I do feel that OpenSolaris should have both JDS and KDE as an user option. Personally, I find both bloatware, but I'd rather not be caught on the wrong side of this battle and have fodder for the bad mouthers. Nothing to stop us getting a list of good KDE packages ready [like Ken has already done], but I think you'll be pushing up a hill to get KDE installed by default, but absolutely no reason why we can't have a set of kick arse KDE packages on the companion CD [or better still, online package repository]. Glynn Well, We were able to spin out the GNOME 2.12.2 platform binaries and Xscreensaver 4.23 which is being integrated into the Blastwave CSW Gnome release. I'm awaiting the JDS GNOME 2.12.x release sometime today?!? Ken Mays __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hi, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 00:09 +0100, Felix Schulte wrote: On 12/18/05, Bill Rushmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 13:02, Gary Gendel wrote: Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. I really don't see how this effects JDS or OpenSolaris. It just one guy's opinion not some edict from above. Sun's choice of only shipping Gnome has serious impact for the (Open)Solaris acceptance. We don't just ship GNOME though - KDE is available on the CCD right? It's just not supported. [snip stuff about Germany that I don't really know enough about] Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. Given the sheer amount of resources that we've already thrown into GNOME, I feel that it would be almost impossible to throw equal resources into KDE as well. Having 2 desktops really doesn't make any sense from a business point of view - goodness knows we already have *4* CD's already, which is way too many. If there's stuff about GNOME that isn't getting us deals [1] then we need to start tackling those issues and figuring out what we need to improve. However, if we have a package repository where someone could easily install a version of KDE then maybe we have some bargaining power. The Linux distros do seem to be standardizing around GNOME though /flamebait Glynn [1] And trust me It isn't KDE isn't a valid reason ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 00:09 +0100, Felix Schulte wrote: On 12/18/05, Bill Rushmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 13:02, Gary Gendel wrote: Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. I really don't see how this effects JDS or OpenSolaris. It just one guy's opinion not some edict from above. Sun's choice of only shipping Gnome has serious impact for the (Open)Solaris acceptance. We don't just ship GNOME though - KDE is available on the CCD right? It's just not supported. [snip stuff about Germany that I don't really know enough about] Similar issues already exist in Spain and France will follow soon. Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. Given the sheer amount of resources that we've already thrown into GNOME, I feel that it would be almost impossible to throw equal resources into KDE as well. Having 2 desktops really doesn't make any sense from a business point of view Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Felix Schulte wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. Why is the requirement KDE? Is the requirement for specific functionality that GNOME doesn't offer? Or do they specify a desktop whose name is spelled exactly KDE? -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Felix Schulte wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. Why is the requirement KDE? Is the requirement for specific functionality that GNOME doesn't offer? Or do they specify a desktop whose name is spelled exactly KDE? I do not know the exact details. As far as I know its partially a political decision as KDE's main development body sits in Europe and Europe likes to focus on European developments. Another reason stated by the people who do the open source desktop transition for the German parliament on the LinuxTag this year was that Gnome is considered inferior compared to the functionality delivered with KDE after an eight month evaluation period (using Suse Linux as operating system). Spain had similar arguments, but for the exact reasons you may ask (ex-)Suse Hubert Mantel. -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hi, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 02:21 +0100, Felix Schulte wrote: I do not know the exact details. As far as I know its partially a political decision as KDE's main development body sits in Europe and Europe likes to focus on European developments. This is interesting, because in actual fact GNOME is pretty European focused in terms of development as well - http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/random/GnomeWorldWideHuge.jpg While the GNOME Foundation may be a non-profit US organization, it is only responsible for making sure the project has the resources it needs to be successful in the future. Another reason stated by the people who do the open source desktop transition for the German parliament on the LinuxTag this year was that Gnome is considered inferior compared to the functionality delivered with KDE after an eight month evaluation period (using Suse Linux as operating system). Spain had similar arguments, but for the exact reasons you may ask (ex-)Suse Hubert Mantel. I suspect it's more likely to be the people pushing for the Linux deployments are KDE users. As you mention KDE is pretty popular in Germany [and maybe other places] - so much so that all the main Linux magazines over there really only concentrate on KDE articles. That may be where some of the bias comes from. I bet the first thing they do with the deployments is lock down most of the desktop, so that you can't see most of that 'superior' functionality. I've seen that in GNOME deployments before, and I imagine it's the same for KDE to make 'functionality' a somewhat moot point. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
