orion-list apologies
Apologies for sending my post on Jeremiah and alleged Rechabite priests twice. When the first version of my post did not come through in a timely fashion, I thought I had fouled something up in the address or header fields. So I sent the message again -- not realizing that by the time I sent it the second time (with an altered subject line), the first version had come through. Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Floor 1 Chicago, Illinois 60626 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah and Rechabite Priests
As far as rabbinic evidence goes the Rechabites are noted (pesikta derav kahana) to be descended from jethro, Moses' father in law, and in chronicles they are noted be kenites-- and the tosefta in bikurim notes kenites have the status of converts but even so they can recite the recitation of the jewish land owning farmer who brings his first fruits to the Temple. Furthermore it is noted that the family will never cease and when the Messiah comes they will be the first to announce him and they will be the first to go up to the temple and offer sacrifices-- and it is further noted rabbi yose bar halafta the reputed author of seder olam was descended from them (according to a genealogical table that had been found). there is a strange passage in tractate shabbat 118 (?) to the effect that rabbi yose went with the priests when invited to bless the people in the synagogue-- the fact he only did it when invited suggests his status was in doubt or something else which was an anomoly. in some passages it is noted that rechabites will be the first to offer sacrifices in the Messianic age temple when a humungus temple descends from heaven and covers 4 mountains. Anyways-- I have no idea what any of this means-- just that such things exist. but I do not know any certain evidence they are priests-- offering sacrifices simply might mean they have a priest offer the sacrifices. theirs will be offered first-- however it might really mean they themselves will act as priests-- I cannot be certain what any of this really tells us but it seems unlikely the clan acted as priests-- if there is a talmudic passage that is clear on the matter I would like to know where it is-- I certainly know of none. herb basser [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Herb Basser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
RE: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
-Original Message- From: Geoff Hudson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 11:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim On page 999 of JBJ, note 22, Eisenman writes: 'followed by the tradition in the Yalkut on Jer.35.12, that the grandsons of the Rechabites served in the Temple and their daughters married the sons of the Priests.' Perhaps someone would comment. Geoff, Aside from the fact that the Yalkut is quite late, serving in the Temple and marrying the daughters of priests does not necessarily make them priests. Check out the Anchor Bible Dictionary on the Rechabites with regard to the idea that they were smiths. The article makes some interesting connections between the customs attributed to the Rechabites and the technological role that smiths would have played in the ancient world. David Suter Saint Martin's College For private reply, e-mail to Suter, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
Ian writes: On page 229 of JBJ Eisenman writes We shall see below how the Rabbinic tradition also connects these Rechabites [..] with the High Priest or High Priest class... Then on page 241 he writes If we keep in mind the Rabbinic notices above that the sons or daughters of the Rechabites married those of the High Priest... The trouble is, looking below page 229 and above page 241, I could find no Rabbinic tradition cited... * Geof writes: On page 999 of JBJ, note 22, Eisenman writes: 'followed by the tradition in the Yalkut on Jer.35.12, that the grandsons of the Rechabites served in the Temple and their daughters married the sons of the Priests.' I have foolishly let go of my copy of JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS. But I specifically remember a footnote that quotes the 2 sections of Talmud that testify to Rechabites gaining entre into the priestly world by marrying the children of the High Priest. I wish I had the footnotes right in front of me but if someone has a copy of the book in front of them... it should be straightforward to find. I will be responding to some of the other posts today or tomorrow. George Brooks Tampa, FL For private reply, e-mail to George Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
well our best information is that historically converts could not marry into priestly families -- josephus makes a to-do about it when he is given a wife by the emperor and finally when he dumps his illegal wife that emperor had given him and marries a priestly wife he feels relieved, rabbinic literature also prefers that priests marry connected (read priestly) wives. the claims about the rechabite women's ability to marry into priestly families are based on a special status they receive from Moses-- all the days, and jeremiah's wording before the Lord always. and we can trace another tradition in this regard-- moses tells the israelites to love the ger (understood by the rabbis as convert) and give him bread and rainment-- say the rabbis-- bread, the temple showbread; rainment-- priestly clothes. -- allow his descendants to marry into priestly families. the rabbis were extraordinarily generous towards converts-- but that does not mean any converts were priests. of course, they were not. Herb - Original Message - From: George Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 6:25 PM Subject: Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim Ian writes: On page 229 of JBJ Eisenman writes We shall see below how the Rabbinic tradition also connects these Rechabites [..] with the High Priest or High Priest class... Then on page 241 he writes If we keep in mind the Rabbinic notices above that the sons or daughters of the Rechabites married those of the High Priest... The trouble is, looking below page 229 and above page 241, I could find no Rabbinic tradition cited... * Geof writes: On page 999 of JBJ, note 22, Eisenman writes: 'followed by the tradition in the Yalkut on Jer.35.12, that the grandsons of the Rechabites served in the Temple and their daughters married the sons of the Priests.' I have foolishly let go of my copy of JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS. But I specifically remember a footnote that quotes the 2 sections of Talmud that testify to Rechabites gaining entre into the priestly world by marrying the children of the High Priest. I wish I had the footnotes right in front of me but if someone has a copy of the book in front of them... it should be straightforward to find. I will be responding to some of the other posts today or tomorrow. George Brooks Tampa, FL For private reply, e-mail to Herb Basser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
Herb Basser wrote: thanks for the citation-- i now recall george had written me about this months ago and i saw the passage but forgot about it until geoff brought it tou our attention again. I'm not sure of all the Yalkut's sources here but here is what we find: yalkut Jeremiah preserves: some say their daughters married priests and their grandchildren offered sacrifices-- this doesnt make rechabites priests at all-- lineage follows males. And if I take the some say correctly, this passage also indicates that there was some doubt that the claim itself (about daughters, etc.) is in any way reliable. If so, the peg upon which anyone might attempt to hang the thesis of a Rechabite priesthood, let alone a long established one, becomes even weaker than what you note it already is. Yours, Jeffrey Gibson -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.) 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Floor 1 Chicago, Illinois 60626 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Jeffrey B. Gibson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
Herb, It's not clear to me you are looking at the right footnote or footnotes. Do you have the JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS book? And if you do, can you cite the footnote that Eisenman quotes in support of the marriage into the lineage of the High Priest? The footnotes were about marriage not about their access to the various parts of the temple. I think the Jeremiah text is more than sufficient to establish that we are talking about levitical or priestly service here rather than metal working. So I'm not looking for Talmud references that are silent on the marriage into the priestly lineage. George For private reply, e-mail to George Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
orion-list Rechabites vs. Enochian Jews?
Prof. Gibson writes: And if I take the some say correctly, this passage also indicates that there was some doubt that the claim itself (about daughters, etc.) is in any way reliable. REPLY: The Talmud is FULL of some say commentary. I hardly think you are in a position to unwravel the entire Talmud because of the nature of the dialogue-approach to discussion. The Talmud represents various threads within RABBINIC thinking. So this is hardly a touchstone to what was happening during Jeremiah's time: 1) because the Rabbis were a later development, and 2) because it may well be that a Rechabite priesthood would not be favorably viewed by the Rabbinic writers. For example, during Jeremiah's time there was a faction of Jerusalem priesthood that Ezekiel took issue with? Would they have been an opposing voice within the Talmud? Almost certainly! Could this be the SAME group as the Rechabites? Let's explore that. The point of the Talmud references... if anyone can locate the correct ones in Eisenman's book... is to show that even the Rabbinic material acknowledges that the Rechabites had an unusually close relationship with the Priesthood. And the Eusebius reference certainly makes it clear that there WAS a Rechabite Priesthood from the point of view of the Church Fathers. So all of this fussing about whether there was or wasn't this would be only for those who didn't find Eusebius credible. So perhaps we can focus on the possible connections between the Rechabites and the Enochain community within Judaism to see if there is a connection there... rather than play forensic semantics with what the Talmud says. The Talmud, as a partisan document, cannot really disprove this point...but presumably it can point out that there WAS an unusual Rechabite presence in Jerusalem. Prof. Gibson, I know you find it easier to BLOCK my inquiries than to help explore them with me you're pattern is quite consistent in this on other lists. But maybe you could adopt a different approach here. What can you tell me about the Enochian community that would help us in this topic? Someone as knowledgeable as you is bound to have something to contribute on the subject of Enoch and those Hebrew who wrote about him. George Brooks Tampa, FL For private reply, e-mail to George Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
Prof. Suter, The view that the Rechabites were craftsmen in general is quite well established. But I'm not quite certain why you think these crafts preclude any capacity in Levitical or Priestly service. Priests made things in the service of Yahweh. so why wouldn't a priest be a metal worker too? If priests make incense to be burned for Yahweh, it would not be unheard of if Priests made the bells that they rang for Yahweh as well, yes? If Levites can carry wood, and guard a door then certainly Levites can be craftsmenand Priests can be craftsmen. Eusebius does not refer to the Rechabite defending James as a metal worker he calls him a priest. So why you keep wanting to return to the metalworker theme is sort of beside the point, don't you think? George Brooks Tampa, FL For private reply, e-mail to George Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
RE: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
No, George, I don't think it's beside the point, and I think that you're unfair to Jeffrey to demand that he support you rather than BLOCK you. You're overreading Jeremiah, I believe, and when the Rabbinic material didn't support your reading of Jeremiah you backed away from it. As I suggested before, you need to consult a Hebrew lexicon (I checked the recent Brill HALOT) about the various possible meanings of the key phrase in Jeremiah before reaching a conclusion about whether the Rechabites were priests on the basis of that passage. I also suggest actually reading Boccaccini's book on Roots of Rabbinic Judaism (my comments on this book elicited your response) to see what he thinks about conflict within the priesthood prior to the Maccabean period. As far as the Book of Enoch goes, both the Book of the Watchers and the Similitudes are fascinated by metalworking, but from a negative slant. The Watchers teach the art to their wives, causing war and violence in the Book of the Watchers. If the Kenites and Rechabites were smiths (whose primary function in the ancient world was to manufacture weapons), then the Enoch literature is on the other side. David Suter Saint Martin's College -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of George Brooks Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 8:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim Prof. Suter, The view that the Rechabites were craftsmen in general is quite well established. But I'm not quite certain why you think these crafts preclude any capacity in Levitical or Priestly service. Priests made things in the service of Yahweh. so why wouldn't a priest be a metal worker too? If priests make incense to be burned for Yahweh, it would not be unheard of if Priests made the bells that they rang for Yahweh as well, yes? If Levites can carry wood, and guard a door then certainly Levites can be craftsmenand Priests can be craftsmen. Eusebius does not refer to the Rechabite defending James as a metal worker he calls him a priest. So why you keep wanting to return to the metalworker theme is sort of beside the point, don't you think? For private reply, e-mail to David Suter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim
no i dont have it-- i was merely responding to the yalkut passage and recalled a partial source in mechilta (not talmud but earlier) for what it said. I think the Eusebius passage is key and son of the rechabites I take to mean a descendant-- the term is strange because we have already heard he was a rechabite priest-- so perhaps the intent is to add a gloss to explain he was descended from them but not actually a rechabite. the gloss might have been added by Eusebius. the passage reads oddly unless we posit something along these lines. h - Original Message - From: George Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 10:27 PM Subject: Re: orion-list Jeremiah's Eternal Priesthood, the Rechabim Herb, It's not clear to me you are looking at the right footnote or footnotes. Do you have the JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS book? And if you do, can you cite the footnote that Eisenman quotes in support of the marriage into the lineage of the High Priest? The footnotes were about marriage not about their access to the various parts of the temple. I think the Jeremiah text is more than sufficient to establish that we are talking about levitical or priestly service here rather than metal working. So I'm not looking for Talmud references that are silent on the marriage into the priestly lineage. George For private reply, e-mail to Herb Basser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILOR BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
