With out entering into the merits of the current debate, I would simply
point out significantly lower estimates of Qumran's population in J. Patrich,
"Did Extra-Mural Dwelling Quarters Exist at Qumran?" in The Dead Sea Scrolls
Fifty Years after their Discovery: 1947-1997, 720-727. He
Al Baumgarten writes:
This is the heart of my communication. I agree that Pliny's
account of the Essene city refers to Qumran, but it is so full of
misinformation and in need of special pleading to sustain that
conclusion that I cannot follow Pliny in concluding that Qumran was
Essene.
Stephen,
Your attempt to correlate NT language about "doers of the law" with your
theories on Essene deriving from 'oseh ha-torah is probably more nuanced than
my posting suggested. In the interests of accuracy I will certanly read the
materials you cited. For now, I will simply state
A quick comment on one paragraph from Stephen's over-all helpful and
informative posting. It does appear relevant that doing the law is
represented in 4QMMT, a document with Sadducee affinities (along with 11QT
and the halachic materials in CD) but not in 1QS, the sole Qumran document
Greg Doudna asks,
Can anyone show from texts either found or reliably reconstructed
at Qumran anything referring to Jeroboam negatively?
Anything that condemns the northern kingdom of Israel from seceding
from Judah?
While the following is by no means exhaustive, and perhaps not
Dear Walter,
Evidently your site still has problems with this article -- doesn't
appear in the menu with AOL = Netscape browser.
By the way, I have a pretty good original argument that the Chronicler
(the author of Chronicles-Ezra-Nehemiah) wrote c. 180-175 BCE. Sirach
My apologies to Orion - my reply to Walter's posting on Orion was
intended to be private.
Russell Gm.
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On 5/5 Stephen Goranson wrote
From discussion, notably with Jay Treat, as well as Bob, Sigrid
Peterson and others, the noxious element was plainly shown to be, not earth
nor air, but water in the Dead Sea. Pliny narrates that the good water of
the helpful, meandering Jordan
Dierk,
A few comments on your analysis of Jub. 34:4 (which VanderKam translates,
based on extensive textual analysis: And there came the kings of Tafu and
the kings of Aresa and the kings of Seragan and the kings of Selo and the
kings of Ga'as and the kings of Betoron and the kings of
Dear Greg,
I would imagine Stephen G. has an extensive biblio on the subject.
The citation is of course Ant. 13.393, Thereupon Alexander... led his
army against Essa, where Zenon's most valuable possessions were, and
surrounded the place with three walls; and after taking the city
In a recent posting I pointed out that Pliny's description of the Dead
Sea likely comes from Diodorus Siculus (one of his listed sources), which in
turn comes from Hieronymus of Cardia.
The relevant passage at Diodorus Siculus19.98 reads, in part, Its water
is very bitter and of
Dear Bruce Wildish,
Thanks for your well-considered comments.
With respect to the power struggle described in Josephus between the
Joseph the Tobiad and Onias II over the collection of Ptolemaic taxes in
Syria, I'm not sure it's correct to characterize this as a conflict between
Dear Greg,
Russ Gmirkin:
What makes you so sure Ben Sira, and therefore the Zadokite
hymn assuming it is part of Ben Sira, are dated so early, to
c. 180-175 BCE? Apart from this being the unanimous
consensus of secondary literature, is there any actually good
reason for believing
Dear Greg,
The translation by Jesus b. Sirach is dated to 132 BCE; he says it was
written by his grandfather Sirach (pappos normally means grandfather,
although Aristotle uses it in the sense of ancestor) which is consistent with
a date in earlier decades; all the internal evidence
Greg,
The idea that those of a later period anachronistically wished an eternal
priesthood on Simon and his descendants sounds like special pleading to me,
especially in absence of other indications of late date. Dierk's point that,
unlike Sirach, the scrolls avoid reference to the
Kamesar's review is consistent with my own understanding of the political
vocabulary underlying Dio (which is also present in Pliny's passage on the
Essenes), and Dio Chrysostom's political interests. However, I fail to see
how this tends towards a Stoic view of the Qumran Jewish Essenes.
Pliny puts the Essenes and the town of Ein Gedi near Masada. Dio
Chrysostom locates the blessed city of the Essenes near Sodom. These
descriptions are not necessarily mutually exclusive since Strabo 16.2.44
locates Masada near Sodom:
Many other evidences are produced to show that
Dear George Brooks,
About all one can conclude from from Pliny is that Pliny's source thought
the Essenes practices adoption. First, this was likely a misunderstanding.
One of the duties of the Mebaqqer of certain scrolls was the instruction of
youths entering the yachad. He was to be
By way of footnoting my previous posting, see Strabo 16.2.42 for the Dead
Sea emergence of asphalt being accompanied by bubbles like boiling water (cf.
his boiling rivers of 16.2.44).
See Philo, On Abraham 141; Josephus, Jewish War (=BJ) 4.483 on the
still-visible signs of Sodom's
Dear George,
It is quite possible that Pliny's source _believed_ the Essenes practiced
adoption, and also that they lived without money. (Some scrolls and some
classical sources describe turning funds over to a treasurer for the
community - but other scrolls of course document private
Dear George Brooks,
I wrote:
It is quite possible that Pliny's source _believed_ the Essenes
practiced adoption ... Whether Pliny's source had accurate information or not
is another question; whether he was even concerned with accuracy is yet
another; his presentation is more literary
Thank you Ian for your comments on En Gedi. By Herodian remains, did
the excavators include the period of Herod the Great, or are we speaking
later Herodian?
A question that had been raised some time ago on Orion is that, if
Nicolas of Damascus was the source for Pliny's excursus on
Philip Davies extensively discusses the issues you raise in a section
called 'Biblical Hebrew' at _In Search of Ancient Israel_ (JSOT 148;
Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press Ltd,, 1992) 102-5. Lemche touches on
language dating issues at The Old Testament - A Hellenistic Book? SJOT 7
I forgot to mention, Anchor Bible Commentary on Ezra draws exactly the
opposite conclusion from the Elephantine data, that Ezra reflects the Aramaic
of c. 400 BCE. (Torrey's alleged Greek loan words in Daniel hasn't stood up,
or his theory of Aramaic sources behind the gospels, so his
First, thanks to Ian for his bibliographical reference and comments on En
Gedi.
Responding to Stephen's posting piecemeal (with advance apologies for the
length):
Though we disagree on Pliny's source on Essenes, let me begin by noting
that we have (at least in the past) agreed that
Interesting point, Herbert. Ephron has I think convincingly demonstrated
that the Talmudic passage on the dispute between the Pharisees and Sadducees
under Hyrkanus I to which you refer is not an independent tradition but
derives from Josephus. (His argument, as I recall, hinges on the
Dear Bob Kraft et al,
(1) The description of the Dead Sea environs appears to reflect the very
end of Herod the Great's reign, before Archaelaus was confirmed in Rome as
tetrarch. Masada was repaired by Herod; Machereus was rebuilt by Herod
(after having been destroyed by Gabinius); Herod
Dear Greg,
First off, you are correct that in Philo the Essenes are Jews par
excellance, i.e., exemplars of Jewish virtues, as is well known in the
secondary literature. Many of the virtues Philo attributed to the Essenes
and/or Therapeutae he elsewhere attributes to the Jews. I also
Philo and Josephus are remarkably similar in content in their description
of the Essenes / Therapeutae. See for instance G. Vermes,
Essenes-Therapeutae-Qumran, Durham University Journal 59 (1960) 97-115 or
his book on the Essenes in classical sources. B. Wacholder, Nicolaus of
Damascus
It seems to me that Josephus' statement that the Essenes are Jewish
simply indicates that he lifted his material on the Essenes from a source
intended for a non-Jewish audience, one for which it would be necessary to
explain that Essenes are a branch of Jews.
Best regards,
Russell
I came across an unfootnoted comment that Pliny NH 5.73 (the passage on
the Essenes) has rhetorical flourishes reminiscent of Cicero, specifically in
its fourfold description of the Essenes (avoiding women, or any sexual urges,
without money, having only palmtrees for company [in Greek, by
Dear Greg,
I personally can think of no instances when the name Javan was applied to
the Romans (as opposed to Kittim, which was). I'd be very interested if such
examples could be supplied. 4QpNahum seems clear enough in distinguishing
Yavan from the Kittim. In this passage there is no
Dierk, I find no reference to Pompey acquiring new auxiliaries in
Cappadocia, Iberia, Albania, etc., in the literary accounts. Is there hard
evidence for this or is this based on general Roman practices?
Very informative posting.
Russell Gm.
Pompeius started his Pontus
Taking head in hand, it seems to me Dr. Altman's thesis that Kittim was a
universally pejorative term involves some circularity in argument, since a
fair reading of Ant. 1.128 shows no insulting content, unless one approaches
this passage with a prior thesis that all references to Kittim
I agree with Ian and Greg that there is no real basis for interpreting
1QSb as addressed to the high priest. On Greg's comments on 1QSa, I think
there's a pretty good case to be made that both priestly and lay messiahs are
referred to, as conventionally interpreted. Most superficially,
David,
1QS 9:11 refers to the time when there shall come the Prophet and the
Messiahs of Aaron and Israel. The Messiah figure or figures we are
discussing are thus distinguished from the coming Prophet. J. Collons, _The
Scepter and the Star_ (1995) has a chapter devoted to the Messiahs
David,
On 164/163 BCE as a land sabbath year, see 1 Macc. 6:28-54; 2 Macc.
13:1-22. 2 Macc. 13:1 dates this to 163, and 1 Macc. 6:48-54 indicates the
reduction of Beth-Zur and Jerusalem were concluded before the expiration of
the land sabbath.
On the weeks of Daniel as land sabbath
David: I'm quite sympathetic towards your late dating of Ezra-Nehemiah,
though I would date these to c. 180-175, and some of their older source
material (based on Torrey's excellent analysis of sources) to 200-180 BCE. I
would just point out that on evidence of Sirach 50:26 and Josephus,
David,
Purvis' _The Samaritan Pentateuch_ is pretty good, although there are
evidences the Jews and Samaritans had their differences for some time before
Hyrkanus I. There appears to be anti-Samaritan polemics in the Book of
Watchers (c. 225 BCE?), Testament of Levi (c. 200 BCE?),
To Dierk and George Brooks:
Let me cheerfully amend my definition to:
Essenes: the historical group(s) referred to in Josephus, Philo and
Pliny as the Essenes.
This allows for the possibility that more than one group was referred to
as Essene - that is, as Essaioi or
As a follow-up to my last posting, I did some research on-line and found
a translation of John Cassian (http://www.osb.org/lectio/cassian/index.html).
Much of the Institutes is obviously based on Philo's Therapeutae, but there
is no mention of Rechabites, and Cassian only (incorrectly)
Tom,
On Christian sources (gradual) co-opting of Philo's Therapeutae as a
description of Christian monastics, see generally D. Rudin's _Philo in Early
Christian Literature: A Survey_ (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1993), as
well as Rudin's _Philo and the Church Fathers_ (Leiden: EJ
Dear Luke Ueda-Sarson,
Greetings and welcome to the group. At least a couple of us have keen
interest in the military data in the Dead Sea Scrolls, notably 1QM.
I have little to add on the questions you ask other than what I wrote in
R. Gmirkin, The War Scroll and Roman Weaponry
First, Greg, good luck on your upcoming defence of _4Q Pesher Nahum. A
Critical Edition_.
As Peter wrote, it does seem certain that the Oniads were considered
Zadokites, (especially on evidence of ben Sirach), but - siding with Greg
here - I don't see any evidence that the Hasmoneans
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Hi Soren,
I just read most of Boccaccini's book -- skipped over his discussion of
the Essenes in classical sources. Boccaccini's thesis runs something like
this. First, he distinguishes and contrasts between Enochian Judaism (i.e.
that responsible for the Enoch literature) and Zadokite
Thanks for the responses.
Dwight, it is interesting that although the Prayer of Manasseh was found
at Qumran, it contains no sectarian language, while the Martyrdom of Isaiah,
absent at Qumran, does (mainly in its demonology). Hence my curiousity
whether we see the general idea of
There is also,
M. Noth, Noah, Daniel and Hiob in Ezechiel XVI, VT 1 (1951) 253-59.
My own research indicates that Mesopotamian influences on the HB are much
later than commonly imagined, and I suspect the same is true for Canaanite.
On the other hand we see Dan'el as a Watcher
You might try Menahem Stern, Greek and Latin Authors on Jews and Judaism,
vol. 2. I think you're referring to Appian of Alexandria. From my reading
of secondary literature, the only original classical sources on the Essenes
are Josephus, Philo, Dio Chrysostom (and perhaps Hegesippus).
Phil,
Although I don't have Stern volume II in front of me -- only selective
photocopies -- I note from the index listing under Essenes in vol. III that
there is nothing in the page number range for Appian of Alexandria. So I am
at a loss as to the source you are quoting. Is there really
Before the publication of all the scrolls, the language of the scrolls
was classified as Late Biblical Hebrew, largely based on the Isaiah scroll.
More recently the terminology Qumran Hebrew has become current. Can anyone
on the list refer me to recent bibliography on the relationship
Before the publication of all the scrolls, the language of the scrolls
was classified as Late Biblical Hebrew, largely based on the Isaiah scroll.
More recently the terminology Qumran Hebrew has become current. Can anyone
on the list refer me to recent bibliography on the relationship
Before the publication of all the scrolls, the language of the scrolls
was classified as Late Biblical Hebrew, largely based on the Isaiah scroll.
More recently the terminology Qumran Hebrew has become current. Can anyone
on the list refer me to recent bibliography on the relationship
Dear Jürgen Zangenberg and Joe Zias,
Thank you for your replies. I admire both of your contributions to the
field and hoped you would respond. Joe, I will reread your article from DSD.
On the relationship between Qumran and Ain el-Ghuweir, as I recall a recent
article in IEJ on
Dear Joe Zias,
First, I think your observations on the apparent bedouin burials in the
auxiliary cemetery (if I may call it that) is one of the more important
recent contributions to Qumran archaeology, alongside Hirschfeld's
identification of the remains as a fortified manor house based
Dear Joe Zias,
Thanks for your comments.
I agree that Golb's idea of Qumran as fortress with military cemetery is
dead, but I don't think Hirschfeld's analysis of the site of Qumran can
be easily dismissed (although his proposal of Essenes above En Gedi appears
incorrect). The
Dear Joe Zias,
Not to be a bother, but I recently reread your article The Cemeteries of
Qumran and Celibacy in DSD 7, and I had some follow-up queries. First, if I
understand the diagram in Figure 1 from Humbert and Chabon, and read de Vaux
correctly, the graves in the southern cemetery
George,
Technically, the period when the Dead Sea Scrolls were written (i.e. 2nd
and 1st century BCE) is later than ANE is intended for. Occasional postings
on the scrolls used to be tolerated, though. My understanding is that past
discussions of scrolls topics on ANE tended to violate
Dear Rochelle,
You do seem to run a fairly tight ship at IOUDAIOS-L.
Russell Gm.
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