Re: [ozmidwifery] brown sugar
Jane Wines wrote: Just stroke the babys anus with a thermometer do not go into the anus for a few minutes then watch out for the production. Only used for maternal anxiety for lack of stool but better than adding foreign substances into babies gut. Its like cats licking their kittens bum but I dont think that Mums would appreciate being told to lick it!! Jane Agree with Jane, look to the outside of the babe's body rather than disturbing the flora balance in the gut. Put some nice oil on your hands and do a gentle clock-wise massage of the belly (with the umbilicus being the middle of the clock, Then, do the anal stim. Using a clean facecloth warmed with water makes an even better cat's tongue. Gloria
Re: [ozmidwifery] PPH C/S
Kelly @ BellyBelly wrote: Hello all, A woman on my forums has had two normal births of big babies 11lb3oz and 13lb5oz and had a PPH with both. Her Ob is now recommending a c/s with her third bub and wants a scan at 34 weeks as a deciding factor of this. She wants a normal birth is it okay just for her to say no without too much risk with PPH? Best Regards, Kelly Zantey Creator, BellyBelly.com.au Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood BellyBelly Birth Support - http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support She would be better advised to follow a gestational diabetic diet. Gloria in Vancouver, BC
Re: [ozmidwifery] workshops
Sorry about that post. I just scanned it and saw it was all about Australia so passed it along. Won't happen again. Best regards, Gloria in Canada -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] International Breech Birth Conference, March 20 21 2006
Breech Birth Conference – International perspectives on the management of term breech pregnancies and birth http://www.breechbirthconference.com March 20th 21st 2006 Vancouver, BC, Canada There has been a radical change over the last few years in the approach to breech pregnancy. The publication of the term breech trial led to many centres across the world opting for management with caesarean section, resulting in the dramatic decrease in the number of vaginal births. In turn this has led to many obstetricians, midwives and family practitioners never having seen – much less managed - a planned vaginal breech birth. The skills of those who can provide experience are all too quickly disappearing, both from retirement and fear in a litigious environment. read more Aims and Objectives Aims of the Conference We aim to bring together practitioners and researchers from around the world to discuss issues such as research and safety, as well as techniques associated with breech birth. It is to be a multidisciplinary forum, and will contain discussions, presentations and interactive workshops. Objectives * Analyze research in this area, and hear of current work in the field * Participate in hand-on skills workshops for both vaginal breech birth and emergency skills, led by both doctors and midwives * Hear about some of the different approaches to breech birth around the world, including the rationale for selected use of oxytoxics in second stage, and the preferences for different birth positions Gloria Lemay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Breech birth conference coming up in Vancouver, B. C. Canada Hope you can make it. Details on the link below. Gloria Lemay, Vancouver, BC Canada http://www.breechbirthconference.com please pass info on to your groups -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Re: on the subject of induction/cholestasis
Hi Amy, Here are two articles you should read about Cholestasis. One is off this list and the other is from http://www.birthlove.com Gloria in Canada What Is Obstetric Cholestasis? -by Natalie Forbes Dash Homebirth Access Sydney Blue Mountains Homebirth Support CHOLESTASIS is a liver condition that involves pruritis (itching) and increased bile acid levels in the last trimester of pregnancy. Approximately 1% of pregnant women have this condition, which continues until delivery. Babies have an increased chance of meconium stained amniotic fluid, foetal distress, spontaneous preterm delivery and a 1 in 4 chance of being stillborn. Subsequent pregnancies are usually affected, getting worse with each. Quite often symptoms go unrecognised in first pregnancies, increasing babies risks. Cholestasis is caused by a blockage. When the liver has little capacity for absorption or excretion of bile, some of the normally excreted bile acids cause partial destruction of the liver cell membrane, allowing the toxins to enter the blood. Little is known, but there is evidence to show that oestrogen plays a large role. Patients with increased oestrogen levels, such as those carrying twins, have an increased incidence of the disease.There is also a chance that cholestasis could be hereditary. Symptoms may be difficult to diagnose until the patient is very sick., but if women and caregivers are aware of cholestasis it can be controlled. Pruritis (itching) usually starts on the soles of the feet and the palms, extending to the rest of the body. In some severe cases it can involve the face, ears, mouth and head. Itching is at its worst throughout the night, leading to sleep deprivation, exhaustion and physical and mental fatigue. Mild jaundice is shown in about 20% of patients and some babies are born jaundiced. Nausea and vomiting can be present throughout pregnancy, and 50% of mothers get urinary tract infections at the onset. In severe cases a cough may come on in the earlier stages before itching begins. Approximately 80% of patients show rises in liver levels after 30 weeks gestation. More severe cases come on earlier, last longer and have extreme symptoms, i.e. prickles, stinging, pain in the head and an increased chance of fatty liver disease, putting mother at risk. Although the outcome is mostly good for mum, this disease frequently leads to malabsorption of vitamins, worsening maternal nutrition status. Cholestasis has about a 20% risk of postpartum haemorrhage and the tendency towards bleeding may be caused by inadequate absorption of vitamin K, which is needed for the blood to clot. So far the treatments available to us are undesirable. We are only offered ways of suppressing the symptoms and the treatments only work if diagnosed early enough, or if it's a mild case and still side effects are not known. I was offered antihistamines and tranquillisers to supposedly help with pruritis, steroids to mature my baby's lungs and an induction or caesarean after establishment of foetal lung maturity at 34 wks. Unknown are the effects of these drugs on our livers. It's possible that they could be actually making the problem worse for baby or subsequent pregnancies for the mother. I took this disease very seriously, but was unable to accept these options. After researching cholestasis this is how I decided to manage my condition. Firstly I did the obvious and took out all fats from my diet, eating only fresh fruit and vegetables, preferably organic and drank 10 litres of purified water a day (the recommended amount of water is 2/3 litres per day) to flush the toxins out of my liver. I also drank fresh beetroot juice and vegetable soups. I took herbs to support my liver throughout my pregnancy and had a mix made up from my naturopath after cholestasis was confirmed, including Dandelion, St Mary's Thistle, Globe artichoke and Psyllium husks. I also did yoga and had Reiki to support my mind and body. Acupuncture was performed throughout my pregnancy for liver function, but more for use of induction in the final days before delivery. I had blood tests performed monthly until 20 weeks, every week from 30 weeks and every day from 32 weeks until birth. I also agreed to daily monitoring of baby's heartbeat. At 32 weeks I became aware of my liver cells dying and my levels indicated I was on my way to fatty liver disease, giving me a 20% chance of maternal mortality. I knew I had to take full responsibility for myself and my baby and putting drugs into our bodies would only of done us more harm. Unfortunately there is not much information about this disease and many doctors and midwives are unaware of the symptoms, making it very difficult to diagnose. Since my last baby was born, almost 3 yrs ago, I have continued to research this condition. There has been very little progress in the treatment offered from the medicos. Ursofalk acid is used in most cased, this
[ozmidwifery] Banned Aussie dr
This guy sounds like he's a few fries short of a Happy Meal. Gloria in Canada Please see: http://www.northernstar.com.au/localnews/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3671261thesection=localnewsthesubsection=thesecondsubsection= Or: http://tinyurl.com/94n3x Or read it here: -- Banned Doctor claims payback 04.02.2006 By SHAN GOODWIN [EMAIL PROTECTED] A SET of old-style scales, a desk with no computer and a jar of jelly beans. This was Dr Peter Stewart’s surgery. Each patient’s information was neatly placed in a pocket on his door on a pink or blue card, depending on their sex. As they came in, his secretary asked what their family members were up to. It was the type of practice where everyone felt at home. One of the last of its kind. Dr Stewart practised in Lismore for 43 years and, if you speak with some of the more than 1000 patients he had on his books when he retired, he was ‘nature’s gentleman’. He was known as ‘Doctor Delivery’, having brought hundreds of Northern Rivers children into the world. He was also known as the ‘Farmer Doctor’, being the owner of the last piece of undeveloped farmland between Lennox Head and Ballina — prime multi-million dollar real estate on which he runs a few hundred head of cattle. And now, in the twilight of his career, he has been labelled the ‘Steroid Doctor’. The 76-year-old shut his Conway Street practice on January 24 after being found guilty of professional misconduct by the NSW Medical Tribunal. Given the option of working only when there was another medical practitioner on site, he chose instead to retire. Brought before the tribunal last November, he was prosecuted by the Health Care Complaints Commission which had received complaints over the number of prescriptions he had written for anabolic and androgenic steroids. The steroids were largely prescribed to patients who worked in the security industry. Dr Stewart maintained he acted in the best interests of his patients. I’m human, he said. And why would a human want to see another taking veterinary supplies? This way, I could monitor and supervise their use. In his experience, steroid use under these circumstances had not caused anyone damage. It is this opinion which has proven most controversial. But controversy is not something new to Dr Stewart and it seems he didn’t mind upsetting the apple cart amongst the medical profession. Outspoken on problems with North Coast Area Health and the anaesthetists’ debate, and one of the last doctors to support the circumcision of baby boys, Dr Stewart more than once drew criticism from his colleagues. But the respect he commands from patients is phenomenal. They are standing by him, claiming his prosecution was a witch-hunt and writing to the NSW Premier to express their disgust. In the end, that’s all that matters, says Dr Stewart. What do you think? Phone the Star Feedback line on 6624 3266 or email [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] What are Buist's pads?
Brilliant, Andrea. Someone had posted the query on the Midwifery Today forums so I have posted your reply. Gloria Andrea Quanchi wrote: Gloria I just got the book out to re read the section you are talking about, pg 45 in my book ofr anyone interested, but I think it just the name they use for the combination of a binder and two towels used as described to try and encourage the uterus to be more upright in women who have a serious split in their rectus shealth and therefore the uterus is hanging forward into the gap. Often these women fail to establish labour because the baby is not putting pressure on the cerix. They often niggle on and off repeatedly and doing as described is often enough so that during the next run of contractions they establish rather than wain again. If you want to ask Pauline Scott I have her email Andrea Quanchi On 08/01/2006, at 7:20 AM, Gloria Lemay wrote: This is mentioned in Optimal Fetal Positioning. Can anyone tell a Canadian what they are? Gloria in Vancouver, BC Canada
Re: [ozmidwifery] FW: Joan Donley
Thank you for letting us know about Joan's passing, Kirsten. She is much loved in Canada, too. Gloria One of the most special woman I have ever met has left us. She was a role model to me and many others Im sure. I had the pleasure of meeting her when I was studying at AUT and talked with her often. It is a sad day for all NZ midwives and woman, and Im sure Joan also touched many here in Australia. Joan has achieved so much for midwifery worldwide, may she rest peacefully and may her struggles and fights still be remembered and continue to be fought by us all. Kirsten Text from today's NZ Herald: Donley, Elsa Joan (nee Carey) O.B.E. On December 4, 2005 at Northaven Hospital, Whangaparaoa; aged 89 years Mother of Robert, Derelys, David, Adrian and Patrick. Grandmother of Robert, Geoffrey, Michael, Tamarin, Mandy, Shaun, Graeme, Steven, Matthew, Lauren, Hayden and Vanessa. Great Grandmother of Madeleine, Hunter, Chloe and Riley. Joan was an internationally acclaimed advocate for normal birth, and in the 1980's had a key role in the establishment of the New Zealand College of Midwives. As the well established matriarch of Midwifery Joan's knowledge and wisdom will be sorely missed, but those seeking a healthier birth and upbringing for their children will find Joan's compendium for a healthy pregnancy and a normal birth, a legacy of her wisdom. Thanks to the staff at Northaven Hospital for their care. A service will be held at the North Shore Memorial Park Crematorium Chapel, 235 Schnapper Rock Road, Albany at 1.00pm on Wednesday December 7 to be followed by interment. In lieu of flowers donations to the Joan Donley Research Collaboration, P.O. Box 21106, Christchurch would be appreciated. H Morris Funeral Services.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: Sarah Buckley's book: Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering now!
Janet, thanks for posting this. I concur, it's really beautifully done and chock full of good info and new ideas. I highly recommend it. Gloria in Canada Janet Fraser wrote: No one else has sent it so I will. It's a lovely book, I've already read it. : ) From: "sarahjbuckley" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 1 December 2005 10:07:22 PM Subject: Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering now! Dear friends I am excited to tell you that my book, Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering: The wisdom and science of gentle choices in pregnancy, birth, and parenting is now in my webshop and available for purchase at http://www.sarahjbuckley.com/shop/ I am thrilled with the production of Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering. The lush cover (artwork by Durga Bernhard) reflects the beauty and gentleness of birth and mothering, and the cover colours are vibrant with vegetable-based inks. Inside, the layout and design are pleasing, and the 100% recycled paper gives the book a lovely feel I am also getting wonderful feedback about the content, and it is so good to have all my best articles in one place. All of those mothers, grandmothers, professional, parents who have emailed me with questions about Lotus birth, homebirth, cord clamping after cesarean, cord blood banking, ecstatic birth, co-sleeping, breastfeeding (and much more) can now find the answers! There are also articles about the safety of ultrasound and epidurals (a longer version of the article in the current Mothering), breech birth, caesareans, prenatal testing for Down syndrome, yoga and motherhood, raising babies without nappies/diapers and lots of my own stories. You can read Ina May Gaskin’s words of wisdom in the foreword – I was privileged to chair a panel at the recent APPPAH conference in San Diego on care during labour, which included Ina May (upcoming blog!). Ina’s foreword is a great rave about the spread of birth fright vs the birth-giving capacities of our bodies. You can also read what my reviewers have to say about Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering as you scroll down at http://www.sarahjbuckley.com/html/gentle-birth-gentle-mothering.htm My latest reviewer is Deepak Chopra, who says:
[ozmidwifery] Jeannine Parvati Baker 1949-2005
Joseph, Utah Jeannine Parvati O’Brien Baker A beloved friend and teacher to many passed away on the new moon, first of December, 2005, in Joseph, Utah. Jeannine was born in Los Angeles, California, on June first, 1949. (A double Gemini, with moon in Leo). She and her family moved to Joseph in 1982 and two of her children, Quinn and Halley Baker were born here, at home. Jeannine attended schools in California, earned a B.A. degree in psychology and completed graduate work at the California State University system. Author of several books on family health and wellness and hundreds of published articles for magazines and professional journals, she has been a featured speaker throughout the U.S. and the world. Jeannine is listed in WHO’S WHO for her contributions to women’s health. She has maintained a correspondence course on herbalism, midwifery and optimal parenting which has over 1000 students enrolled worldwide. Locally, Jeannine has been active for the cause of family health, opposing the proposed asbestos dump site near Monroe, the aerial spraying of malathion in the county, and most recently against the coal-fired power plant in Sigurd. On the national and international scale, she has strived to protect children by working to end routine neonatal circumcision and promoting more gentle birth practices. During her prolonged effort to overcome hepatitis, she has had excellent helpers come forward from around the world and locally. Most recently she has been very efficiently and compassionately served by the Hospice program, including Vicki Gurney, Kallie Williams. Danielle Curtis, John Bagley and Kelly Husbands, and also the Joseph LDS ward Relief Society, especially Twila Owens and Rebecca Zufelt. Neighbors, Patricia Magelby, Diane Fullmer and Emily Chase were extra helpful. Her family is extremely grateful for all the loving support they have received. Jeannine was preceded in death by her father, Frank O’Brien of Los Angeles and survived by her mother Vicki O’Brien, and sister Francine O’Brien of Los Angeles. All of her 6 children are living, Loi Medvin, Oceana Medvin and Cheyenne Medvin of Santa Rosa, California, Gannon Baker of Moab, Utah, Quinn Baker and Halley Baker of Joseph. Jeannine’s wishes are to be cremated and the ashes buried in the Joseph cemetery. A public grave site service will be held at a later date to be announced. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Big U.S. Pharma not trusted
The lead front page article in today's New York Times reports: "A poll last month showed that only 9 percent of Americans believed drug companies were generally honest, down from 14 percent in 2004. In contrast, 34 percent of people said they trusted banks, and 39 percent trusted supermarkets." "A year after Merck's withdrawal of its arthritis medicine Vioxx led to an industrywide credibility crisis, the Food and Drug Administration is blocking new medicines that might previously have passed muster. Doctors are writing fewer prescriptions for antidepressants and other drugs whose safety has been challenged, like hormone replacement therapies for women in menopause." "Consumers have been irritated for years by drug prices in the United States, which are higher than in other industrialized countries. But anger at the industry reached a new pitch in the summer of 2004, with the disclosure that several companies had suppressed the results of clinical trials that showed an increased risk of suicidal thoughts by people taking antidepressants." But the drug industry's defining spin about its fraudulent claims and corrupt marketing practices goes to Sidney Taurel, chief executive of Eli Lilly Company, and former congressman, Billy Tauzin, president of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America who blame the public for "unrealistic" expectations about drugs. Taurel: "Executives at the major drug companies say they are concerned that consumer mistrust has led to unrealistic expectations about drug safety and risks, stunting the development of new medicines." Tuzin: "We've created an impression with the American public that when a drug is approved, it's perfectly safe." "Unrealistic" to expect safety to be the first priority in the drug development and approval process? "Unrealistic" to expect pharmaceutical companies not to operate like the purveyors of snake oil who made false claims and concealed their products' lethal side effects? "Unrealistic " to texpect an industry that is given long-term patent exclusivity--as no other industry recieves--would not violate the public trust by concealing from physicians and customers lethal risks? "Unrealistic" to expect that the FDA would not approve a medicine to be widely marketed as "safe and effective" when it has triggered severe, potentially lethal side effects in clinical trials? "Untealistic" to trust that an FDA-approved medicine will not trigger cardiac arrest, or cause liver damage, or diabetes, or mania, psychosis, and /or violent suicidal or homicidal outbursts?
Re: [ozmidwifery] two vessel cords
What I was told by a pathologist that I consulted for a 2 vessel cord (many years ago so new research may trump this but it made sense to me) is that 1. renal problems are the first thought but they would result in the baby being small for dates 2. if the baby is a normal size and urinary function is normal, it probably means that the 2 arteries are there but appear as one and have fused. Gloria Joy Cocks wrote: Yes, that's right. My newest grandson (now 4 weeks old) had only 2 vessels and the ob/ultrasonographer said that the association with renal anomolies has now been disproven. Joy Joy Cocks RN (Div 1) RM CBE IBCLC BRIGHT Vic 3741 email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: brendamanning To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 17:15 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] two vessel cords Actually recent research has discounted the association with renal agenesis other genetic anomalies that we all used to think of as a possibility with 2 vessel cords. I read it on the Ox mid site recently (I think). Kind Regards Brenda Manning www.themidwife.com.au - Original Message - From: cath nolan To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] two vessel cords this can be an indicator of renal anomalies in a small percentage of babies. It is worth a scan i believe. I have worked in a neonatal unit and do remember thebabies affected. This must always be balanced with the fact that there are plenty of babies that have no problems apparrent. Cath - Original Message - From: Kylie Carberry To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 2:19 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] two vessel cords Hi everyone, I have a pregnant friend with a two vessel cord and wondered if anyone had some info on what this may mean. I had it myself and was told the baby would need a renal scan at one week old to check for renal anomolies. Indeed, shedoes have urinary reflux, but I know that a two vessel cord does not necessarily mean renal problems. I know that this was brought up a little while back but I have lost track of the info Kind regards Kylie Carberry Freelance Journalist p: +61242970115 m: +612418220638 f: +61242970747 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Re another fyi...
Perhaps the headline should read :*Women who wait until their late 30s to have children and then fall under the care of an obstetrician are defying nature and risking heartbreak, leading midwives have warned. * I have only observed one thing about older mothers in my 29 years in the birth business and I tell every mother over 35-- The older the mother, the cuter the kid. Gloria http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4248244.stm Delaying babies 'defies nature' *Women who wait until their late 30s to have children are defying nature and risking heartbreak, leading obstetricians have warned. * Over the last 20 years pregnancies in women over 35 have risen markedly and the average age of mothers has gone up. Writing in the British Medical Journal, the London-based fertility specialists say they are saddened by the number of women they see who have problems. They say the best age for pregnancy remains 20 to 35. Over the last 20 years the average age for a woman to have their first baby has risen from 26 to 29. * The message that needs to go out is 'don't leave it too late' * Peter Bowen-Simpkins, Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists The specialists, led by Dr Susan Bewley, who treats women with high-risk pregnancies at Guy's and St Thomas' Hospital, warned age-related fertility problems increase after 35 and dramatically after 40. Other experts said it was right to remind women not to leave it too late. * 'Having it all' * In the BMJ, the specialists write: Paradoxically, the availability of IVF may lull women into infertility while they wait for a suitable partner and concentrate on their careers and achieving security and a comfortable living standard. But they warn IVF treatment carries no guarantees - with a high failure rate and extra risks of multiple pregnancies where it is successful. For men, there are also risks in waiting until they are older to father children as semen counts deteriorate with age, they say. Once an older woman does become pregnant, she runs a greater risk of miscarriage, foetal and chromosomal abnormalities, and pregnancy-related diseases. They add: Women want to 'have it all' but biology is unchanged. Their delays may reflect disincentives to earlier pregnancy or maybe an underlying resistance to childbearing as, despite the advantages brought about by feminism and equal opportunities legislation, women still bear full domestic burdens as well as work and financial responsibilities. * The best time to have a baby is up to 35. It always was, and always will be * Dr Susan Bewley Dr Bewley told the BBC News website: We are saddened because we are dealing with people who can't get pregnant or are having complications. Most women playing 'Russian Roulette' get away with it, most people are fine. But I see the casualties. The best time to have a baby is up to 35. It always was, and always will be. She added: I don't want to blame women, or make them feel anxious or frightened. The reasons for these difficulties lie not with women but with a distorted an uninformed view from society, employers, and health planners. Doctors and healthcare planners need to grasp this threat to public health and support women to achieve biologically optimal childbirth. Where we can, we should be helping women to have children earlier. HAVE YOUR SAY *The choice is still clear, have a career or have children late. I would advise other women to leave it and take the gamble * Victoria Finney, Brighton Clare Brown, Chief Executive of Infertility Network UK, said Delaying having children until you are in your thirties is a choice many people make but they need to be aware of the added problems when trying to conceive, particularly over the age of 35 when a woman's natural fertility declines. When this is exacerbated by a further complication such as blocked tubes or low sperm count the chances of a successful pregnancy even using IVF are much less. Peter Bowen-Simpkins, of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, said: The biological clock is one thing we cannot reverse or change. The message that needs to go out is 'don't leave it too late'. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/health/4248244.stm Published: 2005/09/15 23:08:39 GMT -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Re: ] Friend with breach baby...told CS only options.
There ARE some important things with breech. This is where your anatomy and physiology of the newborn is very important. Understanding the circulatory system of the baby, the way the bones in the head fold over each other and the concept of creating an airway are some important considerations. The main rule is HANDS OFF, however, that is not all there is to it. With breech births it's important to have a period of 45 mins from the time the woman feels like pushing till when she actively pushes, in order to prevent the head being caught on an undilated cervix. Once the baby is born to the umbilicus, you have 7 mins to complete the birth. You want to avoid rushed handling but you also don't want to sit there like a lump. The baby can be provoked to draw breath or shoot his/her arms above the head by meddlesome handling. The body hanging (and I especially like the all 4's position for this) is Nature's way of bringing the back hairline to the introitus of the vulva. Sometimes, even without stim. the arms will be up and it's important to turn the babe's hips using a cloth and not touching the delicate organs in the belly (you can rupture organs with your pointy little fingers when the baby's abdomen is engorged and your adrenal is running) so that the shoulders are antero-post diameter in the pelvis, then reaching in and gently sweeping them down. sometimes this requires a second demi rotation for the second arm. Once the babe's hairline is visible, then, it's important NOT to let the crown of the head POP. Popping can result in a fatal tear to the cerebral tentorum---a drumlike membrane over the brain. So, at this point, you reach a finger in, get the baby's lower jaw and gently pull the mouth and nose into sight. Once there, the mother is told Stop all pushing. Then she can stay like this for a very long time and all is well. You want her to easy, easy, easy get the top of the head born so there is no pop and you know you have an airway to that baby. One of the guidelines that Michel Odent stresses is to watch the first stage to tell you how the second stage will go with a breech. If you have a smooth, progressive first stage, the second stage will follow that way. If you're having a breech birth where the progress gets hung up or stuck and the butt doesn't come down to the vulva on its own, you want to consider cesarean as a safer option. Gloria Vedrana Valèiæ wrote: Thank you, Gloria. In this article, it is said again that nothing must be done except flexing the head at the end and putting the woman in hands and knees position (or any position she feels right, I suppose?). Is there more to it than I'm getting. Because if there isn't, it sounds really simple to me. Do not interfere, just like in other kinds of births. Vedrana -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Noises in labour
Jackie, I love this story. I wonder if I could submit it to Jan at Midwifery Today magazine for inclusion in one of their magazines? Let me know. Gloria in Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maternity Ward Mareeba Hospital wrote: The discussion a few weeks ago about noises in labour started me thinking about a woman I met a couple of years ago. She was a small woman with a mild speech impediment. She had an overbearing husband, who came to all her antenatal visits and answered questions for her. He would frequently say things to put her down. She had a fairly traumatic vacuum extraction in a big busy hospital for her first birth, and was unsuccessful in her attempts to breastfeed. This was her second pregnancy and she really wanted a normal birth and to be able to breastfeed, and I felt she was quietly determined, but also afraid of failing again. When she came to hospital in early labour, her husband was with her and was talking for her as usual, but as the labour progressed things started to change. As she started making more noise in labour, he started to quieten down. When she whipped her nightie off and threw it on the floor he started backing towards the door. She was obviously feeling hot because next she lay flat on her back on the cold floor with arms and legs out, moaning and groaning. He was looking horrified, but hanging in there. She was becoming more vocal and when she was contracting she started to say repeatedly, through the course of the contraction, Bugger Balls. This finally did it, he left. She continued to repeat those words throughout her labour, and seemed to really enjoy saying it. She had a great labour and birth, and went on to successfully breastfeed her baby for over a year in spite of her husband and mother-in-law undermining her. It was an amazing birth to witness because you could see the change in power in the relationship as she became stronger and louder, he seemed to shrink. The relationship did appear to revert in the days after the birth, but I believe the strength and confidence she discovered during her birth helped her to breastfeed. This is one birth that will live in my memory forever. Jacky * This email, including any attachments sent with it, is confidential and for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). This confidentiality is not waived or lost, if you receive it and you are not the intended recipient(s), or if it is transmitted/ received in error. Any unauthorised use, alteration, disclosure, distribution or review of this email is strictly prohibited. The information contained in this email, including any attachment sent with it, may be subject to a statutory duty of confidentiality if it relates to health service matters. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or if you have received this email in error, you are asked to immediately notify the sender by telephone collect on Australia +61 1800 198 175 or by return email. You should also delete this email, and any copies, from your computer system network and destroy any hard copies produced. If not an intended recipient of this email, you must not copy, distribute or take any action(s) that relies on it; any form of disclosure, modification, distribution and/or publication of this email is also prohibited. Although Queensland Health takes all reasonable steps to ensure this email does not contain malicious software, Queensland Health does not accept responsibility for the consequences if any person?s computer inadvertently suffers any disruption to services, loss of information, harm or is infected with a virus, other malicious computer programme or code that may occur as a consequence of receiving this email. Unless stated otherwise, this email represents only the views of the sender and not the views of the Queensland Government.
[ozmidwifery] Re: NSW news
The endless credentialling and "proving" that midwifery care is safe is just a trick to keep midwives chasing their tails forever. The real power for midwives lies in telling the truth "Most women would be better off with a chimpanzee as caregiver than a physician." Also, many women give birth just fine all alone and there's very little one way or another that any person outside of the family does on the day of the birth to make a baby live or die. The main thing that is offered by midwives is what they DON'T do---give dangerous pharmaceuticals to birthing women and their babies. I can never understand why anybody is trying to justify the safety of midwifery care any more. Marjorie Tew of Glasgow, Scotland has done all the research that we ever need to see. What is really superlative about her work is that she was seeking to prove that giving birth in large hospitals was the safest thing. When someone sets out to prove one thing and then becomes a travelling spokesperson for the opposite view, THAT gets my attention. Once she showed statistically, that home or small clinic is the safest place to give birth EVEN FOR VERY HIGH RISK WOMEN, then she turned her attention to "How young of a preemie can safely be born at home?" What she found by using Dutch stats is that down to 32 w.g.a. babies are best born outside of big hospitals. It may be that even younger babies do better at home but there were not sufficient numbers to prove that. Her book "Safer Childbirth?" should be required reading for all those MCP ob/gyns you have in Australia. Gloria Sonja wrote: I don't have a problem with credentialing. What I do have a problem is, what additional, ongoing training or credentialing does an ob have to do. These are the people that save the babies! Just ask Andrew Pesce and Pieter Mourik!! Sonja - Original Message - From: "G Lemay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 1:26 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] NSW news New credentials give hope for birth centre EMMA SWAIN Tuesday, 30 August 2005 New credentials for midwives assisting in low risk births may pave the way for a midwifery-managed birthing model to be established in Maitland, a young mother has said. Maitland mother of two, Sarah-Jane Hazell, said news that midwives working under midwifery-managed birthing models in NSW would now be credentialed was a positive move forward for women's choice when it came to giving birth. "I think this is just fantastic news and I believe it means Maitland has a real chance of having a midwifery-led birthing model like the one already established at Belmont," Ms Hazell, a member of the NSW Maternity Coalition, said. The Belmont Birthing Service opened in July for those Hunter women unlikely to experience complications during pregnancy, labour and birth. This is the first midwifery-led birthing service to be established in the Hunter area. Ms Hazell gave birth to her second child at home after experiencing a traumatic hospital birth with her first child. "One to one midwifery care is a wonderful thing and women should have the choice of using this method if they want to, besides obstetricians are becoming more difficult to find and more expensive so a midwifery-managed model seems like the perfect alternative." NSW Health Minister John Hatzistergos said the new credentialling process, to be administered by the NSW Midwives Association, would be a first of its kind for Australia. "This new system of credentialling for midwives is a quality control mechanism that will optimise safety for women who opt for midwifery-managed antenatal, birthing and postnatal care," Mr Hatzistergos said. "In the rare instance that a problem develops during pregnancy, labour, birth or the post-natal period, midwives working as primary care givers will need to make important decisions about the need to seek medical attention. "The credentialling process will provide a further set of checks and balances to ensure midwives are competent and confident in providing this care to women in low-risk settings." President of the NSW Midwives Association Dr Pat Brodie said this exciting new initiative would enable the public and care providers to have increased confidence in the range of services provided by midwives working in this way. "For the first time, midwives have an opportunity to participate in a standardised quality process across the State," Mr Brodie said. http://maitland.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=newssubclass=localcategory=general%20newsstory_id=419799y=2005m=8
[ozmidwifery] NSW news
New credentials give hope for birth centre EMMA SWAIN Tuesday, 30 August 2005 New credentials for midwives assisting in low risk births may pave the way for a midwifery-managed birthing model to be established in Maitland, a young mother has said. Maitland mother of two, Sarah-Jane Hazell, said news that midwives working under midwifery-managed birthing models in NSW would now be credentialed was a positive move forward for women's choice when it came to giving birth. I think this is just fantastic news and I believe it means Maitland has a real chance of having a midwifery-led birthing model like the one already established at Belmont, Ms Hazell, a member of the NSW Maternity Coalition, said. The Belmont Birthing Service opened in July for those Hunter women unlikely to experience complications during pregnancy, labour and birth. This is the first midwifery-led birthing service to be established in the Hunter area. Ms Hazell gave birth to her second child at home after experiencing a traumatic hospital birth with her first child. One to one midwifery care is a wonderful thing and women should have the choice of using this method if they want to, besides obstetricians are becoming more difficult to find and more expensive so a midwifery-managed model seems like the perfect alternative. NSW Health Minister John Hatzistergos said the new credentialling process, to be administered by the NSW Midwives Association, would be a first of its kind for Australia. This new system of credentialling for midwives is a quality control mechanism that will optimise safety for women who opt for midwifery-managed antenatal, birthing and postnatal care, Mr Hatzistergos said. In the rare instance that a problem develops during pregnancy, labour, birth or the post-natal period, midwives working as primary care givers will need to make important decisions about the need to seek medical attention. The credentialling process will provide a further set of checks and balances to ensure midwives are competent and confident in providing this care to women in low-risk settings. President of the NSW Midwives Association Dr Pat Brodie said this exciting new initiative would enable the public and care providers to have increased confidence in the range of services provided by midwives working in this way. For the first time, midwives have an opportunity to participate in a standardised quality process across the State, Mr Brodie said. http://maitland.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=newssubclass=localcategory=general%20newsstory_id=419799y=2005m=8 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] fetal heart monitoring.
Sally Westbury wrote: What I find really interesting is that I can see lots of obstetric guidelines but no midwifery guidelines. Sally Another interesting thing about taking fetal heart tones in ANY way is that it's not an evidence based practise. It's possible that listening to fetal heart tones in any way only has the effect of increasing panic and intervention and does not ultimately save babies. Gloria Lemay
Re: [ozmidwifery] Rh anti-D
Yes, mistakes can be made by hosp labs on the blood typing of the newborn. Happened to me. Two neg parents, first child neg. Normally I wouldn't have even checked the bld type of the 2nd child but the parents wanted the ABO group. Monogamous couple. Had to beg to have the lab check again. Turned out they had made an error. Big apologies. Started me wondering how many other mistakes are made. Now, I buy Eldon Cards to type the Dad and newborn myself at home. It's really pretty easy and these little kits make it idiot proof. They cost about $8 Canadian and are well worth it. The hosp labs are a second confirmation after we do testing at home. Also, I hate to get into this because it gives me a headache but I was corrected by a student about the idea that Rh neg is recessive. She did a wonderful, brainy presentation to the class to demonstrate that Rh neg is dominant. I'm sorry I can't duplicate it, but think about it. Two Rh neg parents always have Rh neg offspring but two Rh pos parents can have an Rh neg child. Gloria leanne wynne wrote: Rh neg is recessive so in order for someone to be Rh neg blood group they must possess 2 x Rh neg genes - one from each parent. If somone is Rh pos it is possible for them to carry either a positive or negative recessive gene. I hope that makes sense? Leanne. From: Fiona Rumble [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Rh anti-D Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:57:37 +1000 Both parents must have had one gene for each Rh typing and passed on their recessive gene so that bub got two copies of positive and therefore was positive Regards Fiona Rumble - Original Message - From: Susan Cudlipp To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Rh anti-D At the risk of sounding stupid, I remember a couple who were both Rh-ve and yet their baby was Rh+ve. Now was this a case of 'Father unknown' or a mistake, or is it possible for this to happen? Both partners seemed quite sure that the parentage could not be is question by the way! I'm also Rh-ve and have had 3 bubs, one of whom was -ve. I had several risky episodes during the course of these pregnancies:- small APH, attempted ECV (failed), Chorionic villus testing, Elective C/S (no 1), 2 VBAC's, and a retained placenta with MRP(3rd). As I am a blood donor (or used to be) I know that I never developed antibodies, although I did have anti-D at the appropriate times following potential risks - except for the APH and ECV attempt. Quite apart from the moral rights and wrongs of giving anti-D during pregnancy, it causes us no end of headaches in our busy ante-natal clinics. We are not allowed to keep a stock as it is 'too precious' to place into the hands of midwives ( who might presumably throw it away or sell it on the black market??) So we have to go through a complicated ordering process which takes time away from our clients, and increases our work load - I hate it! As to the seemingly generous supply of Rhogam - where does this come from? While it was less available we were only giving the 28 34 week doses to primips, now apparently there is enough for multips too. Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: Naomi Wilkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Rh anti-D I had this experience! I am Rh neg and so is my hubby. I was told I would still need to have anti-D during pregnancy. Although the doctor never stated that my husband may not have been the father of my child, that's what was implied. I refused and thankfully was saved from any further harassment as I had my beautiful baby at home. Naomi Funnily enough, we are not allowed to test the partners of Rh neg women to see if they are negative too, thus ruling out the necessity for giving Anti-D, because apparently we can't trust women to be truthful about the father of their baby!! Sally -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.5/58 - Release Date: 25/07/2005 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Leanne Wynne Midwife in charge of Women's Business Mildura Aboriginal Health Service Mob 0418 371862 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored
[ozmidwifery] Chemical exposure in utero
CHEMICAL EXPOSURE IN UTERO A new chemical study of umbilical cord samples from the American Red Cross has found that babies have an average of 200 known toxic chemicals in their blood, including mercury, fire retardants, pesticides and a chemical used in the production of Teflon, even before being born. The tests found that hundreds of chemicals, pollutants and pesticides are stored in body fat over a lifetime and then pumped from mother to fetus through umbilical cord blood. Overall, chemical absorption can be reduced by eating organic foods, and by reducing exposure to toxins at home and at work. http://www.organicconsumers.org/school/newborns071505.cfm
[ozmidwifery] Re: just a thought
The other thing I've seen a lot in water is the baby stopping at the hips,having a big moro reflex under the water and then continuing to birth the buttocks and legs. Anyone else see this much? Hi Tania This opening of the arms and baby flinging back the head is a subject that has received study by Cornelia Enning, the waterbirth mw from Germany. She's a regular speaker at Waterbirth International conferences and her view is that one should wait for that 'sign' to gently lift the baby out of the water. I think she might have a website if you do a google search of her name. Gloria -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Re: (was) FYI, now ultrasound unsound
Thanks for posting these items Leanne. I've recirculated them far and wide on my other lists. Funny how the AMA gets worried about private operators making money off the things from which physicians are making a fortune. I guess the doctor who stated And although there is no evidence to suggest that exposing a fetus to unnecessary ultrasound is harmful has never read the large Swedish study which says the effect on the brain is definite. Here's some easy-to-distribute and research u/s info that might be of interest. Gloria With Woman by Gloria Lemay, compiled by Leilah McCracken Ultrasound Abdominal ultrasound can be either imaging or Doppler. Imaging ultrasound gives a fuzzy photographic image of the developing fetus and is famous for being inaccurate. Obvious problems have been missed and, on the other hand, women are told they have problems and then the problem is not present when the baby is born. Surprisingly, it is the Doppler ultrasound that is used to simply pick up the heartbeat in prenatal visits that is the higher dose of ultrasound radiation (non-ionizing). There have been studies that have shown Doppler ultrasound can alter cellular activity. According to Anne Frye, midwife and author of Understanding Lab Work in the Childbearing Year (4th Ed.) p. 405: Doppler Devices: Many women do not realize that doppler fetoscopes are ultrasound devices. (Apparently, neither do many care providers. Time after time, women are assured by doctors and even some nurse midwives that a doppler is not an ultrasound device.)...Not well publicized for obvious reasons, doppler devices expose the fetus to more powerful ultrasound than real time (imaging) ultrasound exams. One minute of doppler exposure is equal to 35 minutes of real time ultrasound. This is an important point for women to consider when deciding between an ultrasound exam and listening with a doppler to determine viability in early pregnancy...If you have a doppler, put it aside and make a concerted effort to learn to listen yourself! Save your doppler for those rare occasions when you cannot hear the heart rate late into pushing or to further investigate suspected fetal death. -copyright l990, Anne Frye, B.H. Holistic Midwifery. Also, from A Guide to Effective Care in Pregnancy and Childbirth by Enkin, Keirse and Chalmers. (This book is a guide to a huge two-volume book in which the studies done on most everything done in obstetrics have been evaluated and conclusions drawn. This work is also the basis for The Oxford Database of Perinatal Trials.) There has been surprisingly little well-organized research to evaluate possible adverse effects of ultrasound exposure on human fetuses...The place of ultrasound for specific indications in pregnancy has been clearly established. The place, if any, for routine ultrasound has not as yet been determined. In view of the fact that its safety has not been convincingly established, such routine use should for the present be considered experimental, and should not be implemented outside of the context of randomized controlled trials. Now, in 2002, we do have respected scientific (epidemiological) evidence of ultrasound causing changes in the fetal brain which consumers should be fully informed about. Swedish researchers found that ultrasound scans on pregnant women can cause brain damage in their unborn babies. Doctors from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm compared almost 7,000 men whose mothers underwent scanning in the 1970s with 170,000 men whose mothers did not, looking for differences in the rates of left- and right-handedness. The team found that men whose mothers had scans were significantly more likely to be left-handed than normal; and that men born after 1975 (when doctors introduced a second scan later in pregnancy) were 32% more likely to be left-handed than those in the control group. In addition, these people face a higher risk of conditions ranging from learning difficulties to epilepsy. Said the researchers in the journal Epidemiology: The present results suggest a 30% increase in risk of left-handedness among boys prenatally exposed to ultrasound. If this association reflects brain injury, this means as many as one in 50 male fetuses prenatally exposed to ultrasound are affected. They say that the human brain undergoes critical development until relatively late in pregnancy, making it vulnerable to damage, and that the male brain is especially at risk- as it continues to develop later than the female brain. Assessing wellness without ultrasound You and your client will always know when ultrasound is being used because there will be jelly (coupling gel) involved.The pregnant woman should be advised of the increased exposure with Doppler ultrasound and she would be well-advised to notify her practitioner that she will avoid all exposure to Doppler ultrasound during the pregnancy and birth. The practitioner will have to use a fetoscope to listen to the
[ozmidwifery] Re: broken collar bone subsequent birth
One of the pitfalls in the birth of a large infant is urging the mother to push a little more for the chin to be birthed. I'm talking about those faces that creep over the perineum and stop with the upper lip of the baby out of the perineum and the lower lip still inside. There's something tidy about getting that face completely born BUT this is where you will get the turtlenecking effect and, it's here that the shoulders get impacted. If you wait for the next contraction and just be patient and let that chin stay inside, you'll avoid the shoulder dystocia because on the next big sensation, there will still be room above the woman's pelvis for that baby's shoulders to turn. The chin and the shoulders will roll out together. I find that, while waiting for that next push, giving the mother a big slurp of water helps to hydrate her and ,like a plant, she'll perk up for that final great heave-ho push to get the baby out. Getting the father to do some nipple stim helps, too. We always have to wonder if any manouevres actually get the baby out or whether it's just that time is passing and the fundus has some time to thicken, rally and piston down on the baby's bum while everyone is flinging the mother about. Gloria Lemay, Vancouver, BC Canada Janet Fraser wrote: http://midwiferytoday.com/enews/enews0416.asp#main Shoulder Dystocia The explanation for the success of the all-fours [Gaskin] maneuver probably lies in movement at the sacroiliac joints at term, which can result in a l-cm to 2-cm increase in the sagittal diameter of the pelvic outlet. The -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Re: broken collar bone subsequent birth
I think it's erroneous to describe breaking the clavicle as a "technique". It's always an accident when it happens and no one is trying to break a clavicle. Those babies are slippery, pudgy and when they're jammed in tight you have absolutely no room to flex them. I think of it like trying to break a chicken bone that is embedded in the centre of a pound of butter. When people say "Then I broke the clavicle" it sounds like it was intentional but it wasn't. I've never had one in my work either but am almost afraid to say that out loud because the karmic gods will get me within the month, if I do. Gloria Mary Murphy wrote: Jennifer wrote: A # clavicle is not a big issue in a neonate and doesn't necessarily mean excessive force was used. The neonates bones are pliable and the # is usually a 'greenstick' or partial break or Well, I have NEVER seen a #clavicle in 26 yrs of both hospital home midwifery, even in big babies where some force has been used. MM
Re: [ozmidwifery] Single umbilical artery
The only one I've ever encountered upon placenta inspection was originally attached to an 8# baby. The pathologist who checked over the placenta said that if there were renal problems the baby would have been small. He surmised that the two arteries had simply fused into the appearance of one. The boy never had any problems and he's about 18 y.o. now. There was a discussion about this recently on the Midwifery Today Forums. Gloria Lemay, Vancouver, BC Canada Andrea Quanchi wrote: Fropm my experience not usually associated with a poor outcome in fact many are diagnosed only when the midwife inspects the cord post birth. Can be associated with renal anomolies but not always. Like anything it may prove to be different on a subsequent scan but I would be asking what do they want to do with the additional information prior to birth other than scare the parents to death. A renal ultrasound on the baby post birth is more useful and I would suggest they (being the doctors) will want this done regardless of the outcome of a further u/s Good luck Andrea Q On 10/06/2005, at 7:23 AM, Tanya Fleming wrote: Hi everyonewanting to hear peoples experience with diagnosis of a single umbilical artery by U/S at 20 weeks? What have outcomes been like? Is there a chance of false diagnosis? I have a member of family who has been given this info recently. I am accompanying her to Brisbane for a more high tech scan next week. Cheers, Tanya.
[ozmidwifery] re Birth Center and Dr Molloy
Denise Hynd wrote: It is truly encouraging and great to see a midwife leader of the ACMI being quoted in effectively defending midwives and challenging the motives and vested interest of obs!! I particularly liked the tricky bit of mass hypnosis she did by saying: If we called private obstetrics a killing field or called them butchers all hell would let loose, she said. The question I have is What if the shoulder dystocia had ended in a fetal injury or death? Would she have come out strong then and pointed out that many babies have died of shoulder dystocia in the hands of drs and midwives are allowed to have baby deaths without witch hunts, too. There is, in fact, no mishap that can ever happen at a birth that hasn't happened to some dr somewhere. When the day comes that midwifery leaders stand for their members in that way, then we'll have the breakthrough in obstetrics. Gloria Lemay, Vancouver BC Canada -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Re: Pain relief resources
I think one reason why women fear the pain of childbirth so much is that they know that no one is being straight with them about Just how bad is it? I think that being descriptive about what I felt (like a molten hot basket ball being pressed down into my crotch every 3 minutes with just enough time to barely get myself together before the next big press) AND also letting women know that I'm the world's biggest wimp when it comes to pain (didn't have my ears pierced till I was 34 y.o. and then had to lie in bed whimpering for 24 hrs after) and yet I've had 3 natural births, is empowering. I also find that if a woman is friends with other women who have done it she's more likely to go the distance. I tell the women they can have the pay now plan or the pay later plan with re to pain in birth. The pay now route gets it done in one day (natural birth), the pay later route means a low grade insidious pain that can last beyond six weeks (epidural headache, backache, stitches healing, or worse after c sec). The biggest benefit of the pay now route is that you have a child with all the brain cells Nature intended for him/her. That is a reward that you reap for your whole life for just one day of courage. Gloria Lemay, Vancouver, BC Canada -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
