yword or function that explicitly
BCW> access a variable in the program-global stash.
BCW> C
BCW> C
BCW> C<$foo = global $main::foo; # Localize this instance of $main::foo.>
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[EMAIL PR
OpTree - Representation and implementation
Threading (crosses all the lines and should wait until these have become
slightly gelled).
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>>>>> "SC" == Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
SC> On Thu, Aug 03, 2000 at 09:12:45PM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> And while were here, does anyone understand kpathsea?
SC> Yes.
>> Would it be a win. I think it would.
SC> There&#
; == Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
SC> On Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:13:44AM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> Well, the issue is how much time is spent opening directories and checking
>> for entries. Also on an NFS mounted file system, the directory has to be
>
nly @_ and the named prototypes would need to be aware of the
difference.
Though what about %hash on the stack? Hmm, not a problem @_ would
use the each iterator.
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the threading or event stuff...)
Either the API or the internal representations should be worked on.
They might be done in parallel.
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> "SC" == Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
SC> (Chaim, please can you *not* CC me stuff on a list you know I read! It's
SC> not as if we don't get too much mail already from this. :)
SC> On Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 12:19:30PM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>
een a Byte article?)
(Might have been back in the '70s)
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s one more de-ref away _AND_ needs masking
NI> except for "all flags zero" case (which had better be the common one).
NI> As I recall my LISP it has two pointers + flags
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lons (positive and negative) is left to
PRL> the native math libraries. A more concerted effort to standardise the
PRL> behaviour of Perl across the platforms would be desirable.
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gt; unreasonable, and I can think of a few ways to do it, but they need to be
DS> designed in *now*, not later.
Just remember, Larry's dislike of making untainting easy.
I'd rather not have multiple characters. A option hash or even a longer
namespace
DS> Taint checking is disabled in a no taint block. Whether we still set the
DS> taint status on a scalar could depend on the -T switch, so data would still
DS> be tainted in a no taint block.
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all non-core items, hard
coded into the language or are they able to be recognized as an already
installed module.
This would help avoid the proliferation of uses. And let perl find the
right use. The only need for use would then be to customize the behavior.
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t; I've got an RFC started on this.
DS> The list would presumably be added to occasionally when a module is installed
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code, or the XS
replacement code.
We might be able to add a hint hook to the module (or the vtbl) that
would help optimization and the compiler.
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PRL> Coroutines are identified by a prefixed vertical bar. To invoke a
PRL> coroutine, you write data to or read data from it.
PRL>$y = <|foo>;
PRL>print |$x "hello, world\n";
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>>>>> "KF" == Ken Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
KF> Tom Hughes wrote:
>> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > I'd like to be able to mimic what the rules for nulls a
strict rules for lock
JT> sequencing, there won't be a deadlock, right?
Which brings to mind, (probably more appropriate to -language)
the user needs a mechanism to handle multi-object locking, or a clean
method to order his lock aquisition.
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a good candidate for Implementation
DS> Defined Data...
Sounds like one of the vtbl entries would be dump_self
Hmm, will vtbl get rid of all the magic hacks?
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urate mark-and-sweep
JT> garbage collection and Lisp/Scheme-style continuations. Perl might
JT> gain performance from the former and a desirable feature in the
JT> latter.
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op that does the check, would dispatch to the underlying op.
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;> "GB" == Graham Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
GB> On Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 06:05:30AM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> What are the issues doing it through the vtbl of 'self'? Though if
>> the op does it, there would be a different op under the tristate pr
float->BigRat, char->UTF8) is more reasonable, and
DS> we can certainly manage that.
Why limited? Doesn't this problem effect all pairwise combinations of
operators?
$complex / $integer
$complex + $string.
etc.
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ternals? Or are you just defering the problem
till the language issues are resolved or finalized.
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>>>>> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
DS> At 06:37 AM 8/7/00 -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> Are there any (p5p) pragmas that have a runtime effect?
DS> strict, for one. Warnings for another.
Please explain how these are runtime? I se
on:
Have every Package generate a vtbl for each subroutine in the package.
Then when something is blessed into the package (if this is retained for
OO) then the objects vtbl becomes the precompiled merger of vtbls based
upon the inheritence tree.
If we use a
f the code or simply
on code path? Obviously having the checked version be a wrapper of
the base op and near it on the same page would be a VM win.
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ed. If, for
DS> example, you had:
DS>my ($foo, $bar);
DS>my ($here, $there) : Place;
DS>$foo = $bar;
DS>$here = $there;
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e's no method of that name already. I'm not sure what else we
DS> can do, though.
We will have to wait for the code to shape up.
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ution.
But for the generic object. The package itself can contain an indirection
table. This would be that sparse table with the offset in the object vtbl.
We might be able to also use this table to hold debugging information.
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>>>>> "GB" == Graham Barr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
GB> On Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 10:01:46AM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> For the "my Dog $spot" case, that's not an issue, compile time resolution.
GB> And why would an object of type
lready inherited a from
B::a. (We could track all objects blessed into a package and do a
fixup. But unless we need this list, for other reasons, it would be a
waste just for this scenerio.)
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t this method from a common package.
DN> This all falls apart under multiple inheritance, unfortunately. Pity
DN> I didn't notice that when I started writing this.
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nyone on this list familiar with Objective-C and its dispatching method?
>>>>> "CF" == Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
CF> Each sub has a unique number.
CF> Package A - Has nothing blessed, doesn't need the lookup table
CF> Package B - Has b
DS> With each box being replaceable, and the process being freezable between
DS> boxes. The lexer and parser probably ought to be separated, thinking about
DS> it, and we probably want to allow folks to wedge at least C code into each
DS> bit. (I'm not sure whether a
be unfeasible
I was thinking of macros as being passed some arguments but then can
either manipulate the raw source code or ask the lexer/parser for
parsed tokens.
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>>>>> "NI" == Nick Ing-Simmons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
NI> You just re-invented "look up the name in a hash table" ;-)
I thought I was saving the constant search along the @ISA, do it only
once.
And adding a direct pointer for constant methods.
t harder to keep package hashes more flat.
GB> Another thing that may help is if all the keys in package hashes are shared
GB> and also shared with constant method names in the op tree. Then when
GB> scanning the chain you only need do a pointer comparison and not a
GB> s
a pointer to the association for uncommon methods of the object type
DLN> is filled. So the defined type table is an array of constant-sized
DLN> items.
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ult in the package the object is blessed
GB> into, so next time it finds it without searching ISA
I was pushing the first caching operation into the compiler. It already
has done most of the work, so it should be a win here.
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at that's not feasible. If the optree needs to
be modified we are going to have major pain for threading.
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w. I can see front-loading the
DS> expense being worth it occasionally. I think.
I was hoping that the vtbls would be self-operating. Without much need
to work hard on them.
Well, we could preload the vtbl with a _replace_me_ stub to do the
cacheing.
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Chaim Frenkel
s.
I'm not quite convinced. But if we lose vtbls for object dispatch a bit
of unification is lost.
The question is how often (in the universe of programs) is the @ISA
redefined and how often a subroutine is redefined.
And even if they are would they change the small offset.
But I think
c case would be more prevelent. And making
the dynamic version take a hit.
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is not the problem.
Aha, we're looking at to differnt dispatch methods.
I wanted the op to simply call through the vtbl. No pre-checking. Why
waste the code, for the usual case. So an active entry would handle
the wasted if.
(Aren't you the one that
or :: or ?
NW> So trace this call:
NW>$fo = open "C:\Windows\System\IOSUBSYS\RMM.PDR";
NW>$fo->pathdrive = "C:" ;
NW>$fo->patharray = [ Windows, System, IOSUBSYS, RMM.PDR ];
NW>$fo->pathdelim = "\";
NW> So, this would b
t; directly in the stash so that, the next time you need that function, you
DS> don't need to traverse @ISA before going to AUTOLOAD.
DS> Dave
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ices only
to methods that are statically _seen_. I.e. to any call ->foo.
Somewaht a smaller universe than the number of possible functions.
These should converge around items in the 'official' API.
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Chaim Frenkel
W> decide to stitch in bigints.)
Actually, it isn't false. Just not 100% accurate statement. During some
interchange with Dan. We discuseed saving various flag checking by
swapping vtbls. (Hmm, might this be a state machine?)
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Chaim Frenkel
7;unsafe' operations simply
call the data access routine with a 'I don't want tainted data'. Untainted
vtbls ignore the option. Tainted data, abort/scream.
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>>>>> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
DS> At 10:26 PM 8/12/00 -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> If we are going to have pre-compiled modules (bytecode or machine) why
>> bother with AUTOLOAD?
>>
>> The "registry"
file name. The default is the latest version. But the filesystem
automatically versions files.
Hmm, if we support versioning files, will perl have to support emacs
versioned files? /foo/bar/bash.c.~356~
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Chaim FrenkelNonli
me"
,Type=>"txt"
,Version=> ":oldest"
);
Seems messy.
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:Generic "."
$resource->name = "new name with all other parts left alone";
$fh = open $resource->asNativeFormat()
Blech, but possible.
(Stolen parphrased but liberally from the Symbolics manual)
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planning to have a direct perl <-> os layer.
(A rewrite/stealing^wborrowing from sfio?)
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resentation. If you are
JH> opening a file with open() or sysopen(), you supply a string with your
JH> native FS semantics and think no more of it.
What RFC? I couldn't find it on http://dev.perl.org/rfc/
Please explain why internally it needs to be represented as anything
o
form-independent naming scheme.
I'm not sure that it covers all the bases.
It covers the universe that web servers are designed to handle. But
what about the universe of devices. Or remote access to mounted
volumes? Sitting on a unix box, and getting to C: on a windows box?
I'll wait
in handling the optree
between threads (and reducing sharing.)
A "parallel" structure to store those items that cover a range of
statements (or parts of an optree) should do it.
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kay, give. You obviously think it is bad. (I don't know what it is, but
what is bad about it.)
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x27;t have to be machine code. A first pass for a port that does
the TIL inner loop in C, should be quite portable.
A faster port, that intimately understands the compiler and how to play
with it, can be done at lesiure.
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Chaim Frenkel
>>>>> "LW" == Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
LW> On the other hand, targeting JVM and IL.NET might keep us honest enough.
What is IL.NET?
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loop.
This is with an inner loop. The dispatching could be sped up at the
cost of space by converting the pointers into real calls, and replacing
calls to push functions with real pushes.
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les method dispatch.
Again operations on the object itself.
Cross operations, addition, concatination, etc. Are handled in the optree.
I can't see how objectA's vtbl can handle a cross-operation to objectB's
vtbl.
Enlightenment sought.
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Chaim Frenkel
vaguely recall that at least one path, flipped the object
and the sender. Others did asFoo messages on the sender.
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>>>>> "RLS" == Randal L Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>>>> "Chaim" == Chaim Frenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Chaim> Given N different fundemental types, we end up with NxN vtbl entries.
Chaim> A long time ago I lo
Err, when did this decision come about. I saw some discussion but I
didn't notice when it became final.
(I assume go, means be eliminated.)
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will include or exclude them
based on the build requested.
>>>>> "MGS" == Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
MGS> On Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 07:16:41PM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> What do you think of creating a mechanism for attaching pre
re quite important in a database-enabled application.
PRL> Professional database systems have transaction-handling inside, but
PRL> there are only a few laguage out there, what supports transactions
PRL> in variable level.
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to flock() involving mutexes
DLN> and sending it to perl6-language?
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p for grabs.
But if it participates then as far as the 'caller' or user is concerned
it looks like a variable and acts like a variable. It must be a variable.
>>>>> "d" == dLux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
d> /--- On Thu, Aug 17, 2000 at 06:17:51PM
all <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
SWM> Does Perl6 support Symmetric MultiProcessing (SMP)?
SWM> This is a *huge* issue. It affects everything else that we do with
SWM> threads.
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o distribute portable time and date calcuations, as
part of the core, we will have to live with whatever the system
libraries give us.
(I don't want to think about Leap Seconds just yet.)
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would be stored) that is the iterator
for (each %hash) {}
becomes
$hidden = iterator->new %hash
while ($_ = $hidden->next) {}
$hidden->done
or something.
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s.
Are there DBM's that don't understand nextkey?
Isn't this the another version of having an indirection? DBM's that
don't allow multiple iterators means the porter to the DBM has to
supply a wrapper that does.
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the stack.
So that push(@foo, @bar) would be an iterator (but since this is internal
special handling can be done. Whild the push(@foo, \@foo) would be the
normal single whatzit processing.
But then again, I'm probably missing something.
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Chaim Frenkel
ectation would be to have it become
# $foo=1 $baz=2 @bar=(4)
*blech*, I'm glad that you're doing the thinking.
>>>>> "LW" == Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
LW> Chaim Frenkel writes:
LW> : LW> P.S. I thin
ck, that if this is true for core. It
might be feasible for non-core modules (assuming some sort of registry)
so that an implicit use might be performed.
(I'm ignoring the problems of multiple versions or multiple conflicting
routines of the same name.)
Are we still far apart?
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anism.
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ar return an object ref in scalar
LW> context, as long as the object returned overloads itself to behave as
LW> arrays and hashes currently do in scalar context.
Isn't this an internals issue?
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multiple variable variety. You will need to
able to have a group of variables be transaction protected.
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ediate code (parse tree or OP tree or whatever),
KF> then both "with" and "transation" might be implemented from user code
KF> outside the core.
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>>>>> "KF" == Ken Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
KF> Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> You are now biting off quite a bit.
KF> What good is half a transaction? If transactions are to be useful,
KF> they should be fully supported -- including rolling bac
IS figure out how to get THAT to give a usable value?
DS> logical_or
DS> logical_and
DS> logical_not
DS> bind (For =~)
DS> repeat (For x)
Are these so that operators can be overriden?
DS> Anyone got anything to add before I
fused. Who is doing adding?
Perl (aka the TIL) or one of the operands?
>> How does THIS figure out how to get THAT to give a usable value?
DS> That's what the type parameter's for...
You're back to a big switch!
Lost in a maze of subroutines that all look alike.
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I> is_equal in what sense? (String, Number, ...)
NI> and how is is_same different from just comparing addresses of the things?
Proxies? Wrappers?
The proxy might want to answer on behalf of the proxied.
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Chaim Frenkel
a reference.
my $a :shared;
my $b;
$a = \$b;
Otherwise what is the problem. In this case. Putting a reference into
a shared variable would wrap the reference.
Would this satisfy your needs?
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agree that all the rest is a user issue, is too short-sighted.
The job of perl is to make things easy, and the hard possible.
Single thingee access mediation, should be done automatically by perl.
The multi-thingee complex mediation should have the user step in, since
solving it (correctly and efficie
difying the vtbl and filling
up the stack with the keys. I really am suspicious of replacing the
vtbl entry, there may be more than one thread working its way through
the hash.
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c. Two
different unrelated items, that are each individually properly
syncronized by perl, but the whole is wrong.
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> Sigh...if that's the best I can get, I'll take it.
I'm not the decisor here, I'm just pointing out another way to look
at the problem. I really don't think you want to have _all_ variable
actually visible. Even if they were, you will most likely have only
a limited number that you want visible.
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es locking.
SWM> - Internal structures, mallocs, and accesses are properly mutexed
I think we are still in mutual misunderstanding. I am only addressing
what the _user_ sees. Not what perl will do internally. I'm working
under the assumption that -internals will do whatev
nd release it when
either finished, reset or destroyed.
Your mechanism, is more like a seek,read,tell sequence without any
guarentees between access.
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thout user specifying a lock, perl will allow
a chaotic update pattern to be visible to the user?
thread Athread B
push(@foo, $bar); ++$bar;
or
$foo{$bar} = $baz; delete $foo{$bar++};
Will there be s
mmit. Or perhaps we get into versioning of variables and then we
buy problems of how to do rollbacks and retryies.
I don't think we can do this immediately. Can you come up with the right
API and/or hooks that are needed so that it might be retrofited?
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t need to (ie, vec() can
BS> just do a set_string and add an OVERLOAD for the bitwise
BS> ops).
But that's against the point. Nothing has to check. The only
operation that is called is the correct one.
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oing transactions.
Though I don't think you would mind having
sub mycritical : lock { } # critical section here.
or
sub onlyone : method, lock { } # lock the object/class
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gle 'statement', it may be possible to gather all the
objects needing a lock and then grabbing them in order (say by address).
Also the thread doesn't need to make any changes until all the locks are
available so a backoff algorithm may work.
This would k
be
needed.
$a[++$b];
pop(@a);
push(@a, @b);
Will these?
And given that users will be doing the locking. What do you see for
handling deadlock detection and recovery/retry.
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;-)
Why not
lock(%y);
foreach my $x (keys %y) {
$y{$x+1} = 1;
}
unlock(%y);
Hmm, I just realized, perhaps we can just punt. Any p5 program that
doesn't use Threads can be left alone. Using p5 threads would
then need manual intervention.
-
rk at some point, run through the code, if the changes take,
we're ahead of the game. If something fails, back off to the checkpoint
and try the code again.
So any stretch of code with only operations on internal structures could
be made eligable for retries.
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