My reply to the message Aaron sent directly to me by mistake...
-- Forwarded message --
From: Mark J. Reed
Date: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Re-thinking file test operations
To: Aaron Sherman
You replied just to me, you know.
> In re-thinking it, we don
scripts don't do logs, in
> EITHER sense of the word. I don't want to replace one bit of namespace
> clutter with another one. All you web guys can use the Apache::log
> method, or whatever.)
>
> =Austin
>
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0.
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 3:16 PM, yary wrote:
> +1 on using ln() instead of log()
>
> Also, systems I know of that implement both log() and ln() default
> ln() with base e, as perl6 does, log() uses base 10.
>
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Mark J. Reed
/09, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> * Moritz Lenz [2009-07-10 00:25]:
>> stat($str, :e) # let multi dispatch handle it for us
>
> This gets my vote.
>
> --
> Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>
>
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ator behind Perl's design. So while it should be
considered, it's not a knockout punch to say "but logic doesn't work
that way."
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Mark J. Reed
; | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, |
>> | E-mail: wayl...@wayland.id.au | I am |
>> -
>>
>> BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK
>> Version 3.12
>> GCS d+++ s+: a- C++$ U+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+ N+ w--- V- PE(+) Y+>++
>> PGP->+++ R(+) !tv b++ DI D G+ e++> h! y-
>> -END GEEK CODE BLOCK-
>>
>
>
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Mark J. Reed
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Mark J. Reed
ght-alt + [ and ].
Mac (standard US keyboard): option + \ for «, same key shifted for »
Linux: Lots of variables: X input manager, modifier keymap, etc. But
digraphs work in vim: control-K < < and control-K > >
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Mark J. Reed
ecessarily binary, but while prefixes tend to be
slurpy, I was thinking one could also declare a prefix op with a
finite arity. And does [...] only reduce if what's inside is an
operator? How do you do a reduce using a plain old binary subroutine?
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Mark J. Reed
ially related: why doesn't simple &+ or &<+> work for what we're
currently spelling &[+] (and which is more specifically spelled
&infix:<+>)?
On 5/28/09, Larry Wall wrote:
> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 09:43:58AM -0400, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> : So that much
+ inside and the list as argument...
The operator '[+]', which you get by applying the meta-operator
'[...]' to the infix binary operator '+', is a prefix list operator.
So that much makes sense. But I still think the two different
meanings of square brackets in operators are going to confuse people.
--
Mark J. Reed
So how is this:
> Any infix operator (except for non-associating operators) can be surrounded
> by square brackets in term position to create a list operator
> that reduces using that operation:
reconciled with this:
> Any ordinary infix operator may be enclosed in square brackets with the sam
ht up, although with the addition
> of Unicode operators Perl 6 could now go ahead.)
Perhaps Perl 6 should not aspire to the expressiveness of APL. :) As
nice as it is that you can write Conway's Life in a one-liner(*), I
think that a little verbosity now and then is a good thing for
legibility.
You can write a sub to return the next step:
sub bondigi { state $n=1; return (, xx $n,
xx $n++); }
but I think an idiomatic Perl 6 solution would have a proper lazy
Iterator. How do we write one of those?
quot;compress" (no example cited) as
additional names.
In Perl6, I assume [...] automatically folds left on left-associative
operators and right on right-associative ones?
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Mark J. Reed
of a built-in range constructor.
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
>
> In Haskell it may be called fold (well, foldl and foldr), but the concept
> has has a variety of names. Two of the more common ones are "reduce" and
> "inject"; I believe Per
def fact(n):
return reduce(lambda x,y: x*y, range(1,n+1))
While Ruby calls it "inject".
def fact(n)
(1..n).inject { |x,y| x*y }
end
Perl 6 has a lot of functional features. IMO the nice thing about its
version of reduce is the way it's incorporated into the syntax as a
metaoperator.
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Mark J. Reed
sion.
>
>
>> I do think captures are inherently impressive, but not easy to explain...
>
> Got a link?
>
> Daniel.
>
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Mark J. Reed
> Well, you really made me realize that I'm looking for things that make
> me impressed, and probably I don't get impressed that easy nowadays ;)
Well, maybe you should relax your expectations. People who haven't
been following P6 development for the last near-decade may be
impressed by stuff tha
gt;
> Even if there is no language change, at least it'd be good to ensure
> that "0...@foo.elems" doesn't appear in the documentation. Instead,
> whoever writes the docs should use @foo.keys and @foo.kv. Those are
> *very* clear, and they do the right thing.
>
> Daniel.
>
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said, that *normally* shouldn't be necessary outside encoding and
decoding, where you need to do things bytewise anyway; just trying to
cover all the bases...)
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Mark J. Reed
t assignments of arbitrary negative numbers to graphemes.
If you're doing arithmetic with the code points or scalar values of
characters, then the specific numbers would seem to matter. I'm
looking for the use case where the fact that it's an integer matters
but the specific value doesn't.
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Mark J. Reed
gt;
> Helmut Wollmersdorfer
>
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is
field 1 ("", in this case). The field whose value is "LINE
FEED (LF)" is the Unicode_1_Name field, wihch for control characters
supplies the ISO 6429 name.
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Mark J. Reed
>
According to the 5.0.0 standard, section 4.8:
"Unicode character names contain only uppercase Latin letters A
through Z, digits, space, and hyphen-minus."
So it seems the notes in parentheses are not considered part of the char name.
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Mark J. Reed
urate amount of cleverness in the
support of that feature.
Basically, I want the specified behavior to make sense as much as possible,
and for it to be easy to explain the places where it doesn't seem to make
sense. Even if it means we don't get that behavior in 6.0.0.
--
Mark J. Reed
implementors' lives harder, what's
> wrong with trying to find a way to get Jonathan's example to work the
> way people expect it to?
>
> I don't understand this aversion to everything remotely hinting of
> eigenstates/eigenthreads/threshing/whatever.
>
> --
> Jonathan "Dataweaver" Lang
>
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be. Isn't it just syntactic sugar for the RHS?
Logically, you might want it to mean something like ∃$x: $x ==
any(-1,+1) && $a <= $x && $x <= $b, but I don't think it does.
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Mark J. Reed
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> Given two
> junctions $d and $p, just adding $d + $p gives you all the possible
> sums of the eigenstates. Given two sets D and P, is there an equally
> simple op to generate { d + p : d ∈ D, p ∈ } ?
Dropped a P there - shoul
On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Moritz Lenz
wrote:
> Mark J. Reed wrote:
>> From a high-level perspective, the blackjack example seems perfect for
>> junctions. An Ace isn't a set of values - its one or the other at a
>> time. It seems to me if you can't make
As an aditional idea...
>
> multi infix:<⋃>(Set $a, Set $b) {...}
> multi infix:<⋂>(Set $a, Set $b) {...}
> ...as well as the rest of the set theory...
>
> daniel
>
>
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#x27;ve been known
to use map for quickie in place mutations, and not necessarily in void
context:
my @prev = map { $_++ } @values;
I'm not arguing for the binding to default to rw - you can always use
"is rw" when needed. I just don't see any reason why the default
binding behavior of map and for should be different.
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Mark J. Reed
Perl 6 is more than just the test suite. It's a language
specification, a reference parser, a test suite, and perhaps a
reference setting implementation. All of the things about the
language that are not tied to a particular implementation are part of
"Perl 6".
Rakudo is a particular implementat
While I wasn't really serious about it...
>
>
>
>
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Mark J. Reed
s it looks.
> multi sub fib (0) desugars to (Any $ where 0),
Shouldn't that desugar to (Int $ where 0)? After all, 0.WHAT is Int...
Of course, then someone will expect multi sub fib (0|1) { return @_[0]
} to DTRT here...
>
> Cheers,
> Moritz
>
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Mark J. Reed
I think the use of % for the modulus operator is too deeply ingrained
to repurpose its infix incarnation.
I do quite like the magical postfix %, but I wonder how far it should
go beyond ±:
$x += 5%; # becomes $x += ($x * .05)? Or maybe $x *= 1.05 ?
$x * 5%; # becomes $x * .05 ?
instead of any of the above? Silently replacing
the assigned value seems like a Bad Idea.
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Mark J. Reed
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Graham Barr wrote:
> Juncture
As has already been pointed out, that has extremely high potential for
being confused with Junctions.
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Mark J. Reed
u might as well call it a Millisecond or
Microsecond.
> Time
Brings a lot of expectational baggage with it.
--
Mark J. Reed
f it. I
> refer you to DateTime and DateTime::Duration, which provide a reasonable API
> for this.
>
>
> -dave
>
> /*
> http://VegGuide.org http://blog.urth.org
> Your guide to all that's veg House Absolute(ly Pointless)
> */
>
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Mark J. Reed
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Chris Dolan wrote:
> Yes, just as I said: a constant offset between each of the proposed
> epochs.
No, because the offset is not constant. The delta between TAI and UTC
is currently 34 seconds. Two months ago it was 33 seconds. The next
time there's a leap seco
omes
> time-ranges.
>
> Or perhaps don't make them coercible and require an explicit conversion via
> $date.morning or $date.evening or something. (Maybe require $time ∩ $date
> or $time ⊂ $date?)
>
>
> -David
>
>
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Mark J. Reed
Considering time scales, there are three that significantly
interrelate, and no matter what Perl 6 uses internally, it needs to be
able to convert to and from these:
TAI: continuous count of time using SI seconds as measured by atomic
clocks, 60 seconds in every minute, 60 minutes in every hour, 2
You
have to take the time zone into account only when translating to a
human-readable form. In that case, it makes no sense for time() to
have a :tz adverb.
If an Instant object also represents a point in time irrespective of
location, then there's likewise no point in a :tz adverb.
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Mark J. Reed
w".
Side question: are HTTP URI's Writable? If so, I imagine that
translates into a PUT. Is there any benefit in abstracting out the
functionality of POST in a way that maps to other resource types?
--
Mark J. Reed
(IO $handle:) is export;
> -our List multi lines (Str $filename);
> -
> -Returns all the lines of a file as a (lazy) List regardless of context.
> -See also C.
> -
> =item prompt
>
> our Str prompt (Str $prompt)
>
> =item Str.readpipe
>
> -=item IO.recv
> -
> -=item IO.seek
> -
> -=item IO.send
> -
> -=item IO.setsockopt
> -
> -=item IO.shutdown
> -
> -=item IO.slurp
> -
> -our Item multi method slurp (IO $handle: *%opts) is export;
> -our Item multi slurp (Str $filename, *%opts);
> -
> -Slurps the entire file into a Str or Buf regardless of context.
> -(See also C.) Whether a Str or Buf is returned depends on
> -the options.
> -
> -=item socket
> -
> =item IO.sysread
>
> =item IO.sysseek
>
> =item IO.syswrite
>
> -=item IO.tell
> +=back
>
> -=item IO.truncate
> +=head1 Removed functions
>
> -=item warn LIST
> +=item IO.eof
>
> -=item Str.warn
> +Gone, see IO::Endable
>
> -Prints a warning just like Perl 5, except that it is always sent to
> -the object in $*DEFERR, which is just standard error ($*ERR).
> -
> -=back
> -
> -=head1 Removed functions
> -
> =item pipe
>
> Gone, see Pipe.pair
>
>
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aining both the expression evaluated and the result of that
expression...
Without bikeshedding the details, does this seem like something worth
including in the language, or something that would better be provided
by a tool external to the language itself?
--
Mark J. Reed
contextual metaphor. Argot,
> lingo, whatever...
If we're being all linguistical, how about "circumlect"?
--
Mark J. Reed
ot. Again, nobody said anything about "code points".
We're talking about Perl6's idea of "characters".
--
Mark J. Reed
t;
>
> Did you mean "prelude" instead?
>
> Moritz
>
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Mark J. Reed
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Aristotle Pagaltzis wrote:
> Maybe :h and :t (head/tail).
I like the echo of the csh pathname modifiers there. Unless that
confuses people into thinking that .trim has something to do with
pathname canonicalization...
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Mark J. Reed
trailing"?
We really ought to avoid using "left" and "right" to refer to the
beginning and end of text strings.
--
Mark J. Reed
ou must use a non-derived(*) form, why not choose something that
means "non-greedy" in English? Maybe "generous"?
(*) Note casual use of "non-" in actual dialogue :)
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Mark J. Reed
int.
>my &more_pid_stuff := pid_file_handler($pid_file);
How does binding work with an rvalue like that?
> Or does each yield produce a fresh new continuation object like this?
That would definitely be my vote.
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Mark J. Reed
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Stephen Weeks wrote:
> Looks like you found a regression. This has been fixed since r34393.
Confirmed fixed in r34454. Thanks!
--
Mark J. Reed
On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 1:55 AM, Stephen Weeks wrote:
> Not long ago, Mark J. Reed proclaimed...
>> What's the consensus on how to do an idiomatic countdown loop? I used
>> for [1..$n].reverse...
>
> This: will work eventually:
>for $n..1:by(-1) { ... }
Coo
On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:39:24PM -0500, Mark J. Reed wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Patrick R. Michaud
>> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:53:06AM -0500, Mark J. Reed wrote:
>> >> I also tried this, but it caused Rakudo to throw a StopIteration
On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:53:06AM -0500, Mark J. Reed wrote:
>> I also tried this, but it caused Rakudo to throw a StopIteration and
>> then segfault:
>>
>> for [...@gifts[0..$day-1]].pairs.reverse ->
}st" };
multi nth($x where { $^x % 10 == 2 && $^x % 100 != 12} ) { "{$x}nd" };
multi nth($x where { $^x % 10 == 3 && $^x % 100 != 13} ) { "{$x}rd" };
multi nth($x) { "{$x}th" };
And as it's just past midnight here in US/Eastern, Merry Christmas to
those who celebrate it!
--
Mark J. Reed
Ok, it works with a $^var in place of $x in the where block.Should
the parameter be visible there under its declared name? If not, then
this is clearly just pilot error, and never mind...
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 6:47 PM, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> I thought this would work:
>
> multi th
Rakudo bug or me not understanding
how constraints work?
--
Mark J. Reed
ists.
Since Perl 5 has no REPL, I'm not sure where such a spec would go. S20,
maybe, since the debugger is the closest thing?
Sorry if this has come up before; I did a quick search but didn't see any
discussion of it.
--
Mark J. Reed
ngified:
> pugs> 2 cmp 10
>
-1
>
pugs> (a => 2) cmp (a => 10)
>
1
>
--
Mark J. Reed
I'd say look at prior art, but "end" in this role isn't very common. It
shows up in AppleScript, where it does double duty: "end" serves as an index
in ranges ("items 3 through end of someList"), but by itself it returns the
last item, not the last index ("end of someList"), and as a lone index it
oes nothing with it but
pass it into some other interface? How does it declare that? It seems like
there still needs to be a generic superrole that means "some non-empty but
unspecified subset of these roles" - maybe "Closable" would work, but it's
not real clear.
--
Mark J. Reed
rscores
(though I guess the p6 version might switch to hyphens). I know
there's no official preference for camelCase vs wide_names in userland
code, but it still seems a tad inconsistent. Unless it's an
intentional "make the two levels of DB access obviously different"
desig
urpose Quotient type with the desired
behavior, but maybe Perl6 would benefit from a generic "stealth list"
type, like Lisp's multiple values. Such an object behaves like a
simple scalar, even in list context, but if you use the right methods
you can access additional values beyond the obvious one.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
quot;unqualified" - strip off
the package name (leading stuff before the ::). As long as no other
package in scope defines something named "True", you don't have to
specify the package.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
otients
typically also involve heavy use of the remainders, and it's only
reasonable that both halves be treated with equal respect in terms of
language support. A way to get both in one fell swoop would be nice
(e.g. Ruby's Integer#divmod), but at the very least, if we have mod
(%), we should have div, too.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:42 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> loop {
>>doSomething();
>> next if someCondition();
>>doSomethingElse();
>> }
>
> That loops fore
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:42 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> loop {
>doSomething();
> next if someCondition();
>doSomethingElse();
> }
That loops forever, doesn't it? But I think this works:
loop
{
doSomething();
last unless someCondition();
doSom
I was just trying to clarify what I think Aristotle was
asking for, and am not saying it's needed. I suspect this might be too
specific a case to worry about, and I'm willing to settle for the
solution in my last message (using an if inside a do or loop block).
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Overall, the goal is to ensure that by the end of the loop the program is in
> the state of having just
> called doSomething(), whether the loop runs or not - while also ensuring that
> the program is
OK, so let's look at the general problem. The structure is this:
doSomething();
while (someCondition())
{
doSomethingElse();
doSomething();
}
...and you want to factor out the doSomething() call so that it only
has to be specified once.
Is that correct, Aristotle?
The "gotcha" is that
one(@a) is. I suppose we could define a
> :uniq(true|false) adverb to modify the meaning of one() so we could
> have both interpretations.
>
> Mark Biggar
>
>
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Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
f utility of
the limit parameter, and I can't believe I misremembered. I was even
indignant not too long ago when using some other language/library
which had a split that behaved as I described instead of as it does in
Perl. Javascript, I believe.
Please excuse the cerebroflatulence.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
arameters don't need to Fail..
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I don't understand why this stuff is confusing; it's not new with Perl
6. There's a long tradition in O-O of distinguishing between the
externally visible accessor and the internal storage - Ruby self.foo
vs @foo, Java this.foo vs setFoo()/getFoo(), etc. In fact the Ruby
case is directly analogous
s like assignment. If she just
peels the label off her hook and moves it next to his hook, that's
like binding. Either way she's referencing the same object (driving
the same car), but the key copy is a more flexible arrangement.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
uot;, then I still suggest the synopsis
> be updated for more clarity, such as using your "essentially means"
> sentence.
>
> -- Darren Duncan
>
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Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ger
value and (1,) is a tuple of length 1, but the empty tuple is
represented by commaless (). Thus len(()) is 0, len((,)) is a syntax
error, len((1,)) is 1, and len((1)) is a type error.
Also, all three of the empty tuple (), the empty list [], and the nil
value None are distinct from each other.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
more) items", then "1
item", but then "no items". So perhaps it's justifiable in Perl6 as
well.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
t;> function.
>
> I like the idea with an unary function, but I have my doubts with the
> two arg comparison function, because it implies O(n²) runtime. But then
> again if the user needs that, he'd have to implement it in O(n²) anyway...
>
> Moritz
>
> --
> Moritz Lenz
> http://moritz.faui2k3.org/ | http://perl-6.de/
>
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Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
low-precidence version of //, been removed?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
> It could be recycled as a "fuzzy Boolean", returning a fractional value
> between +1 and -1, indicating the confidence with which the result is
> offerred. (As in "err, I'm not sure". :-)* )
> 2. The Perl 6 language spec itself would specify a basic set of test
> routines built-in to the language, in a Test namespace
That sounds like a good idea, but it would require that the above Test
functionality be included in the automated tests... which runs the
risk of infinite recursion.
uding other
> languages) may be found here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraction_(grammar)
>
> Best regards,
> Conrad Schneiker
>
> www.AthenaLab.com
>
> Official Perl 6 Wiki — http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
> Official Parrot Wiki — http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
>
>
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Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ers.
That's an Applescript feature that I could do without in Perl. (Not
that anyone was proposing such a thing, just getting my objection out
there preemptively. :))
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Such expressions
were covered in John's original message; I said that the presence of
sigils 'mitigated' the problem, not 'eliminated'. It's one of the
reasons I'm still ambivalent..
Overall, though, it's not a deal-breaker for me one way or the other.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ion conflict is mitigated by the fact that many subtraction
expressions will involve sigils; $x-$y can't possibly be a single
identifier.
And multi-word-expressions without hitting the shift key! My RSI thanks you.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
t the first push fails because the symbol @a was *bound*
to the list. After an ordinary assignment
my @a = (1,2,3);
@a is still an array, which just happens to have been initialized from a list.
@a.push(4); # succeeds
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
o make it too hard to layer such language into Perl6,
but I see no point in bending over backwards to make it particularly
easy compared to other domain-specific languages...
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ically "bob"++ is an error, but { my $x = "bob"; return
++$x; } yields "boc". :))
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
means " += 1 ".
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
s, currency conversion,
brokerage stuff...
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
al literals become approximations in binary...
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
n Int, and
> Int does Num
> Rat does Num
But Int should do Rat, too...
> That way a compiler that only implements classes and roles (and no
> subset types) can get the hierarchy of numeric types right.
...assuming it's a hierarchy in the first place.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
IQap pagh yIHegh! (Succeed or die!)
But you could say something like: SuvwI' yIDa: yIHegh! bIlujchugh yIcheghQo'!
(Behave as a warrior: die! If you fail, do not return!)
However, I think we are now officially *way* off topic for Perl6...
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Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
efined?
>
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Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
is that it's fine for all hashes to support []-indexing. But
>> if
>> the order isn't important, then you probably wouldn't need to use [] in
>> the
>> first place (you'd use "for %h:v", etc.)... so maybe it should be limited.
>> Hm.
>
> That's my thought. That said, I'm wiling to consider the prospect
> that such a restriction is excessive and/or unnecessary.
>
>> P.S. Everywhere I said < and > I really meant .before and .after. =P
>
> :) OK.
>
> --
> Jonathan "Dataweaver" Lang
>
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Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ionality and infinitude are not the same thing;
in particular, there are an (uncountably) infinite number of
irrational numbers...
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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