Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Steve Fink wrote: > David Grove wrote: > > > Also, as far as documentation goes, I think it _should_ be written by > > apprentices, so that non-masters can understand it too. That's always been > > Except it's a particular duty that nobody really likes to perform. Which Actually, I kinda like it. If someone is willing to answer my questions so that I understand what it is I'm documenting, I'm willing to do a good chunk of the documentation. I'm currently working on some docs on handling binary data in Perl (with pack, unpack, vec, etc) that I intend to submit to perl.com. Dave
Re: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
Kirrily Skud Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:28:31AM -0800, Nathan Wiger wrote: > > > > Anyways, that's just one suggestion. Do I have any idea where to find > > these mythical people? No, unfortunately. Perhaps some feelers on > > newsgroups might be a good place to start. Personal experience shows > > that this could be a win, though. > > Open Source Writers Group (http://oswg.org/) is a good starting point. > I'm subscribed to their mailing list. I can think of a couple of other > good places to try, too, but they're a bit politically incorrect to > mention in this context :-/ > > K. Apologies to this author. I didn't know he was a she, and I mean no offense at my guess at what group was politically incorrect. It just looked like Dan had seen the link and missed a bit later on. Of course realizing that documentation is good no matter where it comes from, I think we need to scour around on the inside as much as possible before looking to "outsource". Perl writing has a sort of unique humor (and odd linguistics "perlisms"), which has helped to form and identify the culture. I think it would be a shame to lose that if we pawn off too much onto people not "into" the culture. I won't discount her suggestion though. Any documentation is good documentation, especially on behalf of programmers.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 10:00:50PM +, Nick Ing-Simmons wrote: > B. The "master" / "apprentice" relationship is just that - it depends >how the people in question relate. As a potential "master" I am all >too aware that I am not skilled in teaching - usually because I don't >know what is obvious vs what is obscure - so anyone "taught" by me >has to ask questions rather than be lectured to. I can vouch for that, but you under estimate yourself :) Graham.
Re: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
> >Open Source Writers Group (http://oswg.org/) is a good starting point. > >I'm subscribed to their mailing list. I can think of a couple of other > >good places to try, too, but they're a bit politically incorrect to > >mention in this context :-/ > > Who on earth would be considered politically incorrect in this context? Nobody hit me, but I just figured he meant a sex stories writers guild or something and figured it was a wry joke. (If I'm wrong I got a good giggle anyways and didn't miss the point.) p
Re: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
Kirrily Skud Robert wrote: > > Open Source Writers Group (http://oswg.org/) is a good starting point. > I'm subscribed to their mailing list. This is really cool. Should we consider posting an announcement to this website for potential docs people? Or is it still premature to do something like that? -Nate
Re: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
At 04:29 PM 12/5/00 -0500, Kirrily Skud Robert wrote: >On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:28:31AM -0800, Nathan Wiger wrote: > > > > Anyways, that's just one suggestion. Do I have any idea where to find > > these mythical people? No, unfortunately. Perhaps some feelers on > > newsgroups might be a good place to start. Personal experience shows > > that this could be a win, though. > >Open Source Writers Group (http://oswg.org/) is a good starting point. >I'm subscribed to their mailing list. I can think of a couple of other >good places to try, too, but they're a bit politically incorrect to >mention in this context :-/ Who on earth would be considered politically incorrect in this context? Dan --"it's like this"--- Dan Sugalski even samurai [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even teddy bears get drunk
Re: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:28:31AM -0800, Nathan Wiger wrote: > > Anyways, that's just one suggestion. Do I have any idea where to find > these mythical people? No, unfortunately. Perhaps some feelers on > newsgroups might be a good place to start. Personal experience shows > that this could be a win, though. Open Source Writers Group (http://oswg.org/) is a good starting point. I'm subscribed to their mailing list. I can think of a couple of other good places to try, too, but they're a bit politically incorrect to mention in this context :-/ K.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
> > will have to do some proofreading (also tedious) no matter what. If the > > Bah. *I* like proofreading. Certainly for typos and English construction > if I can forget everything other than the last 2 sentences I read. Masters have no reason to spellcheck. I mean they'll have to proofread for technical accuracy. I apologize, I figured that would be understood.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
> B. The "master" / "apprentice" relationship is just that - it depends >how the people in question relate. As a potential "master" I am all >too aware that I am not skilled in teaching - usually because I don't >know what is obvious vs what is obscure - so anyone "taught" by me >has to ask questions rather than be lectured to. That you both recognize your own limitations and know at least one way how to get around them is a sign that you would be quite an _effective_ teacher, Nick. The adverse can be said for learners. Few know "how" to learn. As an adult with A.D.D., I learned how to learn when I was around 25. In high school I didn't do so well. Well, that's a bit of an understatement. But after I learned how to learn to match my needs, my college tracscript reads solid 4.0. You in particular have a great deal to teach, Nick. I really wouldn't want to see you not try to because you're afraid you might not be a good teacher. Just treat an individual as an individual, and work with him. Things sort themselves out in any kind of relationship like this. p
Re: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
Nathan Wiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Steve Fink wrote: > > > > David Grove wrote: > > > Anyways, that's just one suggestion. Do I have any idea where to find > these mythical people? No, unfortunately. Perhaps some feelers on > newsgroups might be a good place to start. Personal experience shows > that this could be a win, though. Maybe a big "help wanted" sign on perl.org and maybe ora if we can talk them into it. I think I've already volunteered for some of this though, in a roundabout way. Let this circulate for a bit and see what we get from our own insides.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
Kirrily Skud Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:05:43AM -0800, Steve Fink wrote:
> > David Grove wrote:
> >
> > > Also, as far as documentation goes, I think it _should_ be written
by
> > > apprentices, so that non-masters can understand it too. That's
always
> been
> > > a huge criticism of the perldocs. That's not grunt work. That's
proper
> > > allocation of duties to the best suited personnel for the benefit
of
> the
> > > project.
> >
> > Except it's a particular duty that nobody really likes to perform.
Which
> > pushes it into the realm of grunt work.
>
> Bah. *I* like documenting.
Yeah. Haven't you noticed some of the sizes of my posts? Typing fast
helps. Not everybody hates it, especially since perl doc tends to let
people show a slight perlish 'tude... not to mention make up a word now
and then.
("whipuptitude" -- a la Larry)
;-))
I'll reiterate though. Initial documentation, be it basic notes or
whatever, have to be done by the programmer. Any technical writer (it's a
profession) will tell you that. The apprentice will only be able to
expand, and only expand within his own capabilities. Unless the skill is
already in his brain, he'll need something to work from, and the "master"
will have to do some proofreading (also tedious) no matter what. If the
skill is already in the apprentice's brain, he's not apprentice material,
and should be apprenticing someone else. The counterargument of "following
closely and paying attention will be enough" (I expect someone to say
this) works only to a point.
I'm not griping about anything. I'm just advising from the point of view
of someone who knows some of the pains of technical writing.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:10:22PM +, David Grove wrote: > Kirrily Skud Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Bah. *I* like documenting. But what do you like documenting based on? Uncommented code? Code with comments? Code with comments plus some level of skeletal documentation from the programmer? > will have to do some proofreading (also tedious) no matter what. If the Bah. *I* like proofreading. Certainly for typos and English construction if I can forget everything other than the last 2 sentences I read. [note, I didn't say whether I was any good. :-) However, my PhD thesis had few typos in it by the time it was submitted, so I can't be /that/ bad at it] Nicholas Clark
Re: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
Documentation of Perl6 Internals, written by Apprentices and approved by their Mentors -- that would be *excellent* :-) - Original Message - From: "Nathan Wiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program) . . other (good) stuff ommitted . > needing something to put on the resume. "Documented Perl 6 Internals" > might be enough of an incentive for said people to want to volunteer. . . other (good) stuff ommitted . > -Nate
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:05:43AM -0800, Steve Fink wrote: > David Grove wrote: > > > Also, as far as documentation goes, I think it _should_ be written by > > apprentices, so that non-masters can understand it too. That's always been > > a huge criticism of the perldocs. That's not grunt work. That's proper > > allocation of duties to the best suited personnel for the benefit of the > > project. > > Except it's a particular duty that nobody really likes to perform. Which > pushes it into the realm of grunt work. Bah. *I* like documenting. K.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
Nathan Torkington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >David Grove writes: >> What does it take to be considered of "master" status in a certain area > >Basically this: if you're good at doing something and want/need >someone to help with it, then you should be able to ask for an >apprentice. > >I'd say not to get too hung up on "master" and "apprentice", as all >we're looking for is a way for people doing work to get assistants, >and for the assistants to learn as they help. Here is my two penny-worth on this thread. A. There is room for Journeyman status in here - but that may be muddying the waters too much. What I am getting at though is that the collection of "masters" can probably make good use of coders/documenters/testers that already have at least one of the basic skills sorted, but if there are too many raw apprentices then we are going to get bogged down in explaining "trivia". B. The "master" / "apprentice" relationship is just that - it depends how the people in question relate. As a potential "master" I am all too aware that I am not skilled in teaching - usually because I don't know what is obvious vs what is obscure - so anyone "taught" by me has to ask questions rather than be lectured to. -- Nick Ing-Simmons
Re: Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:28:31AM -0800, Nathan Wiger wrote: > One thing that might be really cool is if there was a way to get some > tech documentation apprentices on-board just to specialize in perldocs. > For example, people out of school interested in tech documentation but > needing something to put on the resume. "Documented Perl 6 Internals" > might be enough of an incentive for said people to want to volunteer. Here's another idea: how many of you are familiar with www.perlfaq.com? We could generate documentation in a similar way. A DocMaster would have to outline things, of course, but anybody could fill in the details. -Scott -- Jonathan Scott Duff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tech documentation (Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program)
Steve Fink wrote: > > David Grove wrote: > > > Also, as far as documentation goes, I think it _should_ be written by > > apprentices, so that non-masters can understand it too. > > Except it's a particular duty that nobody really likes to perform. One thing that might be really cool is if there was a way to get some tech documentation apprentices on-board just to specialize in perldocs. For example, people out of school interested in tech documentation but needing something to put on the resume. "Documented Perl 6 Internals" might be enough of an incentive for said people to want to volunteer. Our group of sysadmins recently hired a tech documenter just to do internal docs - system configs, network layouts, protocols and procedures, etc, etc, and it's been a big win. Most tech people don't like documentation, and so do a crappy job at it. Plus, often times they don't have the command of the language that true doc people do, leading to hard-to-read docs with errors or omissions. Good tech documentation people can often do a better job at explaining stuff than the people that actually wrote it. Most all commercial software projects I know of utilize docs people for this reason. Anyways, that's just one suggestion. Do I have any idea where to find these mythical people? No, unfortunately. Perhaps some feelers on newsgroups might be a good place to start. Personal experience shows that this could be a win, though. -Nate
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
David Grove wrote: > Also, as far as documentation goes, I think it _should_ be written by > apprentices, so that non-masters can understand it too. That's always been > a huge criticism of the perldocs. That's not grunt work. That's proper > allocation of duties to the best suited personnel for the benefit of the > project. Except it's a particular duty that nobody really likes to perform. Which pushes it into the realm of grunt work. But don't worry so much about the stigma of shit work -- it's a natural selection thing. Apprentices had better be willing to do some amount of stuff that isn't the most fun thing they could be doing, or nobody will take them on. Masters had better not just dump unwanted junk on their apprentices, or they soon won't have any. Nuke 'em all and let the market sort them out.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
Today around 11:55am, David Grove hammered out this masterpiece:
: Don't miss the point. I'm not proposing to look for masters using
: brainbench, but for viable apprentices that way. Basic Perl skill seems a
: certian criterium for candidacy, as would basic c skill for some areas.
: I've also ranked master there, but only in Perl, not perlguts. I've
: proposed using the tests in my company for potential employees, because if
: nothing else it can help identify people who do RTFM. Basically, at the
: minimalest, it could dispell fears by masters that they would end up with
: apprentices wanting to learn basic CGI. It seems logical that we could get
: more master-volunteers if we can help to assure them they won't be working
: with ... well, with someone with desire but no frame of reference. (I
: think that's politically correct.) Remember, the purpose of this
: apprenticeship is to help people who are not familiar with perl internals
: become so. Requiring familiarity with perl internals as a criterium for
: candicacy for learning basic familiarity with perl internals is not
: logical [logic error: infinite loop].
Point taken. :-)
: If your message was intended as private, sorry for going public. I wanted
: to make this clarification.
No, it was public and you made a good clarification.
--
print(join(' ', qw(Casey R. Tweten)));my $sig={mail=>'[EMAIL PROTECTED]',site=>
'http://home.kiski.net/~crt'};print "\n",'.'x(length($sig->{site})+6),"\n";
print map{$_.': '.$sig->{$_}."\n"}sort{$sig->{$a}cmp$sig->{$b}}keys%{$sig};
my $VERSION = '0.01'; #'patched' by Jerrad Pierce
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
Don't miss the point. I'm not proposing to look for masters using brainbench, but for viable apprentices that way. Basic Perl skill seems a certian criterium for candidacy, as would basic c skill for some areas. I've also ranked master there, but only in Perl, not perlguts. I've proposed using the tests in my company for potential employees, because if nothing else it can help identify people who do RTFM. Basically, at the minimalest, it could dispell fears by masters that they would end up with apprentices wanting to learn basic CGI. It seems logical that we could get more master-volunteers if we can help to assure them they won't be working with ... well, with someone with desire but no frame of reference. (I think that's politically correct.) Remember, the purpose of this apprenticeship is to help people who are not familiar with perl internals become so. Requiring familiarity with perl internals as a criterium for candicacy for learning basic familiarity with perl internals is not logical [logic error: infinite loop]. If your message was intended as private, sorry for going public. I wanted to make this clarification. "Casey R. Tweten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Today around 11:06am, David Grove hammered out this masterpiece: > > : Does brainbench still have free tests for Perl? Maybe that's > : something to look into, and maybe since it's a purely volunteer > : effort if they are now charging for their perl tests, they might > : make an exception... I'll look into that and wait for a response > : about that one from here. > > I have a piece of paper hanging in my works space from brainbench that > says I am a "Master Perl Programmer" however, where the core is > concerned, I can't consider myself a 'master'. Perhaps in other areas
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
David Grove writes: > 3. We seem to be creating a class system. Nate, this is one that I can see > as a must-be, so I'm not going in _that_ direction. But let's still > consider ourselves equal, regardless of rank, ok? Otherwise, perl 6 is a > wash, because it's just as much about community as it is about > programming. My goal for the next twelve months, in everything I do with Perl, is to create the new masters. This both for perl5 and for perl6. Nat
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, David Grove wrote: > Ok, it sounds like a plan. Where do we start? By creating a registry of > current tasks and masters, then fighting for apprenticeship? I don't know. I've gotten a few good responses on the general idea and process, but little-to-no feedback on the individual suggestions. I know there's got to be a brick wall or two in there somewhere; I'd like to ID them before committing to a particular path. Perhaps some of this has been tried before with p5p - I didn't start lurking until a year, year and a half ago. Perhaps some of this has been tried on other projects. What worked? What tanked? Specifics. > > We haven't really defined what qualifies a master or apprentice yet, > though. That was left sort of open. I think solidifying it would be > helpful. I don't think *anything* is going to be rock-solid. Here's a couple firm starting points, though. - If you only claim to be an apprentice, or want to apprentice, you're not a master. Obviously. - Start with the p5 porters who have been active and are willing. Most of them, from what I've seen, have been willing to admit when there's been code in Perl 5 that's outside their realm - they should have no problem doing the same for Perl 6. Even if they *aren't* Masters of Fooery, we need *some* direction, and something in the same general direction of Perl 5 is a good start. - If that doesn't fill up the ranks, then start pinging on your outside volunteers. Find the Subject Matter Experts. (A compiler guru, a regex guru, etc, even though they may be weak on Perl internals. After all, Perl 6 doesn't have any yet.) That should help balance subject knowledge and TMTOWTDI with the Perl tradition and legacy. I suspect that this will be self-promoting, but I'd expect that the list-chairs or Nat might grill volunteers for background or abilities. As I said in my original post, I'm not very fond of databasing every person's professional history. - Leave the various arenas fairly open at first. Allow the volunteers to sort themselves out naturally - the good ones should bubble to the top. Only once there's been "natural selection" in one area, should the groups start to choke down on input to that area. (This should obviously repeat for *each* area.) At Nat just said, let's not get hung up in semantics. This is, fundamentally, no different than how p5p worked: a nug starts lurking, asking occasional questions, providing occasional answers, graduates to suggesting patches to docs and code, until they are eventually the ones driving the boat. All I'm really looking to do is a) getting as many people that want to be involved involved, and b) trying to make the initial hurdle of getting involved not so high. Umm, maybe b more than a, since b -> a over the long run. > What predisposes a person to the top of a list for apprenticeship in an > area (RTFM should probably top this list)? Charming personality? Basic > comprehension certainly, but what else? I hope it's not charming personality. I'll never get to do anything. It may be as simple as self selection, ie, "I think this would be better implemented as a gork2 call." "Okay, then write us a gork2 call." It may be group selection, ie, "You know, Billy Bob seems to have a lot of good insights, let's see if we can get him a little more involved." It may be luck of the draw, ie, "First come, first serve gets to document foo()." I think that there'll be so much to do, that we don't have to worry about starving folks at the bottom of the list. -- Bryan C. Warnock RABA Technologies
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
David Grove writes: > What does it take to be considered of "master" status in a certain area Basically this: if you're good at doing something and want/need someone to help with it, then you should be able to ask for an apprentice. I'd say not to get too hung up on "master" and "apprentice", as all we're looking for is a way for people doing work to get assistants, and for the assistants to learn as they help. Nat
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
Today around 11:06am, David Grove hammered out this masterpiece:
: Does brainbench still have free tests for Perl? Maybe that's
: something to look into, and maybe since it's a purely volunteer
: effort if they are now charging for their perl tests, they might
: make an exception... I'll look into that and wait for a response
: about that one from here.
I have a piece of paper hanging in my works space from brainbench that
says I am a "Master Perl Programmer" however, where the core is
concerned, I can't consider myself a 'master'. Perhaps in other areas
but not in the one concerning us now. Not to mention, I have a hard
time putting value to that test.
: It would at least give an idea of perl skill level...
In could.
: possibly be useful for c too.
>From my experiences, you can know c and still have a hard time with
the perl core. But that's just mho.
--
print(join(' ', qw(Casey R. Tweten)));my $sig={mail=>'[EMAIL PROTECTED]',site=>
'http://home.kiski.net/~crt'};print "\n",'.'x(length($sig->{site})+6),"\n";
print map{$_.': '.$sig->{$_}."\n"}sort{$sig->{$a}cmp$sig->{$b}}keys%{$sig};
my $VERSION = '0.01'; #'patched' by Jerrad Pierce
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
"Bryan C. Warnock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, David Grove wrote: > > In order to serve and assist future "apprentices" or maintainers, the > > communication between the two should be public (unless private on > > purpose), or somehow publicly available. Given the undesirability of > > having ten gazillion mailing lists, and likely the limited storage space > > on tmtowtdi (or whatver variation it's spelling is), is there any way > that > > this could become a realistic goal? > > The produced documentation, ideally. Communication distilled to the > necessary > facts. > Understood. I guess I was thinking of the usefulness of knowing what does NOT work, and what's wrong, but that's likely unattainable, since more will probably be wrong than right in any such relationship or series of communications. Ok, it sounds like a plan. Where do we start? By creating a registry of current tasks and masters, then fighting for apprenticeship? We haven't really defined what qualifies a master or apprentice yet, though. That was left sort of open. I think solidifying it would be helpful. What does it take to be considered of "master" status in a certain area (self acclamation? [badly spoken, how about "recognized skill (by anyone) in a certain area and a willingness to expose that skill with patience to one or more persons wishing to acquire that skill"], election?)? I can't help but think of this in Martial Arts ranking systems, and trying to apply that to computer science. What predisposes a person to the top of a list for apprenticeship in an area (RTFM should probably top this list)? Charming personality? Basic comprehension certainly, but what else? Does brainbench still have free tests for Perl? Maybe that's something to look into, and maybe since it's a purely volunteer effort if they are now charging for their perl tests, they might make an exception... I'll look into that and wait for a response about that one from here. It would at least give an idea of perl skill level... possibly be useful for c too. Scream STOP if I'm completely off target.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, David Grove wrote: > In order to serve and assist future "apprentices" or maintainers, the > communication between the two should be public (unless private on > purpose), or somehow publicly available. Given the undesirability of > having ten gazillion mailing lists, and likely the limited storage space > on tmtowtdi (or whatver variation it's spelling is), is there any way that > this could become a realistic goal? The produced documentation, ideally. Communication distilled to the necessary facts. -- Bryan C. Warnock RABA Technologies
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
Jonathan Scott Duff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 10:08:35PM -0500, Bryan C. Warnock wrote: > > Be available. Don't give a task, then disappear until its due, accept > it, > > then disappear again. Answer questions. Check the work. Give feedback. > > This is very important IMHO; especially for apprentices that really > need some ramp-up time. And two-way communication is just important > period. In order to serve and assist future "apprentices" or maintainers, the communication between the two should be public (unless private on purpose), or somehow publicly available. Given the undesirability of having ten gazillion mailing lists, and likely the limited storage space on tmtowtdi (or whatver variation it's spelling is), is there any way that this could become a realistic goal? Even if there's a "waiting list", perhaps one person's apprenticeship could help others who are waiting. What I wrote last night was rather utopian. In reality, working from history as an example, I'm a bit worried that there will end up more Toms than Dans and Nats. pete
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 10:08:35PM -0500, Bryan C. Warnock wrote: > Be available. Don't give a task, then disappear until its due, accept it, > then disappear again. Answer questions. Check the work. Give feedback. This is very important IMHO; especially for apprentices that really need some ramp-up time. And two-way communication is just important period. Another thing that a master-type person should do is provide a general roadmap of where he is going so that apprentice-types can see how their contribution fits in. Also, this would help apprentices figure out what future tasks they may want to do and if they really want to apprentice in this area. my two cents, -Scott -- Jonathan Scott Duff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
[Replies to perl5-porters, because it's more immediate.] On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:00:06AM +0100, H . Merijn Brand wrote: > Testing, plain. > i.e. I'm now pretty involved in p5p, and cannot spare time for p6, though > I'm following most of it. What I could offer is testing the `current state' > (what's now bleadperl for p5p) on several non-linux machines (see sig), and > maybe put some useful comments next to test results. > Just download/rsync the latest state. Start the test. Report the test results. Another random idea I had the other day was to find a way of doing this automatically, preferably with a Perforce review daemon to check out the source, make sure it builds on a bunch of machines, test it and send the results back. Doubtless someone has thought of this before. -- "I find that anthropomorphism really doesn't help me with a place full of bugs." -- Megahal (trained on asr), 1998-11-06
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:27:28 -0500, "Bryan C. Warnock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Apprentice Tasks > > Any task vaguely Perl related can be apprenticed out. Here is a sample > list: > > - Documentation, both internal and external, including, for instance, > programming guides, DDDs, user documentation, API documentation, coding > standards, etc. > > - Writing weekly summaries of the groups and other stuff the list chair > is currently doing (or should be doing). > > - Q&A or "Help Desk" between working groups, or between a working group > and a public forum. > > - Writing test code, both internal and external. > > - Fleshing out simple stub code. > > - Research and prototyping. > > - Mananging new apprenctices, or the program itself. Testing, plain. i.e. I'm now pretty involved in p5p, and cannot spare time for p6, though I'm following most of it. What I could offer is testing the `current state' (what's now bleadperl for p5p) on several non-linux machines (see sig), and maybe put some useful comments next to test results. Just download/rsync the latest state. Start the test. Report the test results. > Dan then pings on one of the group apprentices to grab the code and run the > tests. Nothing to do with apprenticeships. If I'm no apprentice, I can do this. Nick and Dan would be happy. -- H.Merijn Brand Amsterdam Perl Mongers (http://www.amsterdam.pm.org/) using perl-5.005.03, 5.6.0, 5.7.1 & 620 on HP-UX 10.20 & 11.00, AIX 4.2 & 4.3, DEC OSF/1 4.0 and WinNT 4.0 SP-6a, often with Tk800.022 and/or DBD-Unify ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/languages/perl/CPAN/authors/id/H/HM/HMBRAND/
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
for more on this apprenticeship concept in the software world, check out http://www.mengwong.com/Apprenticeship/ it is a good read and the author is writing it with input from many people. the apprentice is given the shit work to do in return for being around the master and learning directly his skills. it is a worthwhile concept that is still done in medicine and other areas but not nearly as much as it used to be many years ago. in some trades it is still done in some ways. even in movies they have apprentice directors under the umbrella of their guild. we have to work out the relationship for perl6 such that it benefits both groups and doesn't abuse either one. also note that you can be a master in one group and be an apprentice in another. for example, i might be one of the main people working on I/O and events as i have a strong background in it. but i might apprentice in the regex group as i have never hacked any regex engines and i would be interested in learning that. the question arises o the committment level. i actually doubt i would have the time to do my day job, be a master in the I/O group and apprentice in the regex but others could do it. i hope we require some reasonable committments from folks so we know the manpower any group will have at its disposal. uri -- Uri Guttman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.sysarch.com SYStems ARCHitecture, Software Engineering, Perl, Internet, UNIX Consulting The Perl Books Page --- http://www.sysarch.com/cgi-bin/perl_books The Best Search Engine on the Net -- http://www.northernlight.com
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
> I am slightly worried about the "career path" dead-ending at personal > lackey, > however. But, hey, that's why we're getting paid the big bucks, right? I do have some concerns, but before I express them, I have a sidetrack comment in this direction. I have been programming in Perl since before I was programming in Perl. I mean, I learned the perl language very shortly after the release of the pink llama. It was two years later that I actually _executed_ my first program on a Linux machine, and shortly after that on DOS in 1995ish(?). All in all, this amounts to about six or seven years of mostly thinking perlishly. It has affected my way of thinking, and every other language I use is basically a disappointment. I've actually left a job because I couldn't use perl... After you've figured out how to push a pole barn nail into a tree with a fairly large hammer, you figure out that throwing marshmellows at it, although they do eventually do the job, just isn't the same thing. I've cared for the perl community, and fought for it, and even put myself in danger for it... nate's even kicked me out of a list for defending TOO much, even against the evils of python. ;-) But all of this aside, I know my limits. I know that between perl code and perl guts there's a barrier that I haven't crossed. As hard as I've tried, I just haven't been able to climb that wall. I'm starving for meat, and I've a ravenous hunger. It's time for me to cross over. How do I do it? I was in martial arts for 16 years. I even had a school for a while, until my financial partner ran out, the rat fink. Loving the arts, I tried going to different schools, but I kept hitting brick walls, because I was at just the right rank where I outranked most of the local teachers, and didn't care for local 8th dans (korean instructors don't care for financial competition in this area, it seems... no offense to koreans [annyeong kessumnikka]). What I finally did, for the love of the art, was go into a class as a white belt, and start all over again. It was a bit odd having a white belt know poomse from several schools all the way up to fifth dan, but we kept it quiet (even though they actually knew me from my being on the judging panel for a couple high-rank tests in that school, and some knew me from judging in the regional tourneys), and the kids I think learned a lesson from it. You know what? So did I. I re-learned how to be a student. The point is, if I'm not awake too late to actually make sense, is that "lackey" is not an appropriate word for this. Neither is "shit detail" that I've read in a different post. I don't even really see it as a lesson in humility, although for some that could be what it's all about. For me, it's a chance to love my people, and to participate in fathering a child I've come to care about for so long. It's time for me to cross over, and since I haven't been able to do that by myself, I think this is a good way to go. If there's any lackeyism or shit detail around, it's basically a problem either in the master or in the apprentice... laziness in one or the other, or ambition in the latter. It's a lack of paying attention. It's a loss of focus. If you have any interest in it at all, don't do it for the love of being a master, do it for the love of the community we're forming, and the child we're constructing. Lose focus on that, you've no business as master or apprentice, either one. Also, as far as documentation goes, I think it _should_ be written by apprentices, so that non-masters can understand it too. That's always been a huge criticism of the perldocs. That's not grunt work. That's proper allocation of duties to the best suited personnel for the benefit of the project. I'd be proud to have someone help me cross that wall, because I know that after that, perl would be one man stronger for it. I have no problem starting from step one, as long as I'm personally respected as a community equal (though not a skill equal). However, I do see some potential dangers. I don't think the're big ones, but just things to watch out for. Maybe just some food for thought. 1. There's going to be 100 apprentice applicants for each master, you know. 2. I'm afraid that the masters will eventually get so tired of apprentices quitting, an "attitude" will form. 3. We seem to be creating a class system. Nate, this is one that I can see as a must-be, so I'm not going in _that_ direction. But let's still consider ourselves equal, regardless of rank, ok? Otherwise, perl 6 is a wash, because it's just as much about community as it is about programming. 4. Concerning documentation... take this as highly experienced advice: the MASTER MUST create the initial docs, at least sketches. Even close master/apprentice relationships can't make up for the programmer doing his own initial work... even if he does leave it to the apprentice to fine tune and finish up and fill in and connect the dots. Responsibility needs to roll downhill too. 5.
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Mon, 04 Dec 2000, Steve Fink wrote: > One comment -- an apprenticeship is a two-sided relationship. Bryan, I > think you've done a great job of describing the apprentice's > responsibility to the master. But what about the master's responsibility > to the apprentice? The apprentice is entering into the relationship with > the intention of getting experience and skills out of it. I think you > should loosely describe what a master is expected to do to facilitate > the apprentice's progress in exchange for the grunt work. Just so a > master can know whether he's being a good master, if nothing else. > And if I were a master at anything, perhaps I'd be able to. ;-) In truth, I *do* have a hard time describing how anyone on the mentoring side can do their job better. Having been both a trainee and a trainer in a wide variety of fields, the only observation I can state for sure is that every student-teacher relationship is different, and the true masters are those that find their own way to tailor that relationship. But you did say "loosely" describe, so here's a couple of key principles. Be unselfish. Masters need to be able to increasingly delegate work to those ramping up. It can easily get frustrating to see someone taking a couple days what you could easily do in a good two hour session. Spend that extra time reviewing what some other apprentice has done. Be willing. Sponsor an apprentice. In most cases, it will be easier to pull from a general pool, and at the beginning, this is expected. (It will allow everyone to get a general feel of everyone else, and allow for "natural selection.") If you find someone that matches or complements, your style and interests, you have a partner in the making. Better yet, take on two or three. Allow them to tag team on projects - learning and helping each other, as well as you. Be available. Don't give a task, then disappear until its due, accept it, then disappear again. Answer questions. Check the work. Give feedback. Be realistic. If you don't have the time to invest, don't do it. If your apprentice doesn't know diddly about VMS, doesn't have access to VMS, doesn't know how to spell VMS, then don't expect his or her code or comments to be VMS-aware. If your apprentice doesn't have clue one about anything, let him know, and point them to what they need to work on, and where they need to be to get back in the game. If something needs to be done *now*, make sure it gets done now, even if you have to do it yourself. Be prepared. You're going to be asked some pretty stupid questions, particularly since blood-and-guts programming has been becoming a lost art of late. Bite your tongue and move along, don't judge until the questions are too many too often. Be yourself. If you're harsh and abrasive, it's better for you to be harsh and abrasive and send your helpers home crying every night than to try to be anything else. Most of the best help I've gotten from the p5p, Perl 6 *, and Perl TK lists have been from people who probably didn't even know they were helping me. Too tired to come up with any more. Most any book on leadership, is a good place to start. I don't have any real recommendations for the reading list, mainly because my references aren't relegated to just leadership, or aren't available to the general public. But, if you're a military buff, for whatever reason, here's two that I rely on: "Guidebook For Marines", (0-940328-07-0), and "Handbook for Marine NCOs" (0-87021-254-0). The latter is out of print. I also have, but have not finished, David Freedman's "Corps Business: The 30 Management Principles of the U.S. Marines" (0-06-661978-5). Anyone care to guess what service I was in? :-) > You skipped journeyman. :-) Uh-oh. Now everyone will know I didn't pay my union dues. -- Bryan C. Warnock bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
Bryan C. Warnock wrote: > On Mon, 04 Dec 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote: > >> Nice. An apprentice is an administrative assistant with a career >> path. If people are happy to do this, we'd be happy to use them. The >> chairs proved weak at reporting on their list's activities (I know I >> was) so being able to delegate that to someboy who wanted to do it and >> help, would be good. And as we get able to do more technical things, >> the tasks we delegate can be technical too. > > One need only spend an hour or so watching CNN's or MSNBC's Florida election > coverage to notice that the only political interviewees with a general clue > are all the former law clerks for some judge... There's a reason for that. > > No one likes to do what the military affectionately calls "shit details," but > I hope that both sides can benefit from it. > > I am slightly worried about the "career path" dead-ending at personal lackey, > however. But, hey, that's why we're getting paid the big bucks, right? I doubt that'll happen. Apprentices can bail at any time, and undoubtedly will, when they get busy or their interest wanders or whatever. One comment -- an apprenticeship is a two-sided relationship. Bryan, I think you've done a great job of describing the apprentice's responsibility to the master. But what about the master's responsibility to the apprentice? The apprentice is entering into the relationship with the intention of getting experience and skills out of it. I think you should loosely describe what a master is expected to do to facilitate the apprentice's progress in exchange for the grunt work. Just so a master can know whether he's being a good master, if nothing else. You skipped journeyman. :-)
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 06:29:47PM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote: > Nice. An apprentice is an administrative assistant with a career > path. If people are happy to do this, we'd be happy to use them. The I like the idea too. > chairs proved weak at reporting on their list's activities (I know I > was) so being able to delegate that to someboy who wanted to do it and Hey, I was indefinitely strong in reporting the activity of my list since there was no report on no activity, zero divided by zero... Ahem. > help, would be good. And as we get able to do more technical things, > the tasks we delegate can be technical too. > > Nat -- $jhi++; # http://www.iki.fi/jhi/ # There is this special biologist word we use for 'stable'. # It is 'dead'. -- Jack Cohen
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
On Mon, 04 Dec 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote: > Nice. An apprentice is an administrative assistant with a career > path. If people are happy to do this, we'd be happy to use them. The > chairs proved weak at reporting on their list's activities (I know I > was) so being able to delegate that to someboy who wanted to do it and > help, would be good. And as we get able to do more technical things, > the tasks we delegate can be technical too. One need only spend an hour or so watching CNN's or MSNBC's Florida election coverage to notice that the only political interviewees with a general clue are all the former law clerks for some judge... There's a reason for that. No one likes to do what the military affectionately calls "shit details," but I hope that both sides can benefit from it. I am slightly worried about the "career path" dead-ending at personal lackey, however. But, hey, that's why we're getting paid the big bucks, right? -- Bryan C. Warnock bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
Re: Perl Apprenticeship Program
Nice. An apprentice is an administrative assistant with a career path. If people are happy to do this, we'd be happy to use them. The chairs proved weak at reporting on their list's activities (I know I was) so being able to delegate that to someboy who wanted to do it and help, would be good. And as we get able to do more technical things, the tasks we delegate can be technical too. Nat
