Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: > No, I did not have any additional fonts on my machine: the machine was re-installed 2 days before the experiment, with Win98SE, plus all available updates, plus NetScape Communicator 4.8 and ORinoco wireless drivers. None of these include Koodak font, do they? :-) Thanks for the clarification, Masoud. I've been studying your exhibits. Very interesting that your Tahoma in English gives all the English letters correctly. For example, the two letters in the name Hafiz should not be available in your version of Tahoma. So you either are benefiting from the updates or from my font via Weft. But why could it not have also given you the corrected Yeh in Persian? Since your machine can handle the Yeh in Koodak, it is not that it can't display the unicode character or that there is some shaping problem. Anyone have any ideas? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
I totally agree with you that the name "Jalali" keeps away all that confusion and debate around Farsi/Persian/Iranian and also Shamsi/Khorshidi. But as far as I'm advised, the "Jalali Calendar" refers to an era other than the "Hejrie Shamsi" which is in use today, and the calculations are not exactly the same. This is what some people have told me, I don't know about the details though. Can anybody clarify please? > "Jalali Calendar" is such a cute name, not? Yeah, and funny is the message a guy has commented on MSDN Longhorn annotations for the Jalaali calendar: "Thank you This Calender Is A Good Thank You Mr Jalali Thank Bill" Doh!! Omid On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Humm, good point. I was worried about "Jalaali" being used > instead of "Jalali". But now that you mention it, I almost > agree that one of Persian or Iranian calendar may suit > better. Well, we have the Gregorian and Julian calendar > suggesting "Jalali", and we have Chinese and Japanese > suggesting "Iranian", and we have Islamic and Hebrew > calendars suggesting "Persian"! Guys, can we decide on one > once now? Humm, after finishing the sentence, I go back to > vote for "Jalali"! As it avoid binding yet another meaning > to the Persian/Iranian word, and we don't have to go on tell > everybody that this "Farsi Calendar" is the same as the > "Persian Calendar" or "Iranian Calendar", which in turn used > to be known as "Jalali Calendar" or "Jalaali Calendar" by > MS... Poof, "Jalali Calendar" is such a cute name, not? > > Oh, the main point, now that "Jalaali" is not in any standard > yet, perhaps you can request a name change from "Jalaali" to > "Jalali". Of course it's just my personal suggestion. > > later, > --behdad > behdad.org > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > I'm not sure how "month calendar" makes sense in English. > What about writing "in tabular representations"? I checked it up. "month calendar" is a term used for the calendars with a month view. I found this in use even more than "monthly calendar". About "tabular representations", it is better but in general terms. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > Hi Omid, > > Hi, Aleyke Hi, > > A couple of points: The Jalaali calendar, can you please > > tell me in which of the ECMA standards is it defined? > > None. I don't agree with that name for our current calendar. It is the > name Microsoft has selected. I believe 'Persian calendar' or 'Iranian > calendar' is more correct (and known) for the international name of > "Hejrie Shamsi". Humm, good point. I was worried about "Jalaali" being used instead of "Jalali". But now that you mention it, I almost agree that one of Persian or Iranian calendar may suit better. Well, we have the Gregorian and Julian calendar suggesting "Jalali", and we have Chinese and Japanese suggesting "Iranian", and we have Islamic and Hebrew calendars suggesting "Persian"! Guys, can we decide on one once now? Humm, after finishing the sentence, I go back to vote for "Jalali"! As it avoid binding yet another meaning to the Persian/Iranian word, and we don't have to go on tell everybody that this "Farsi Calendar" is the same as the "Persian Calendar" or "Iranian Calendar", which in turn used to be known as "Jalali Calendar" or "Jalaali Calendar" by MS... Poof, "Jalali Calendar" is such a cute name, not? Oh, the main point, now that "Jalaali" is not in any standard yet, perhaps you can request a name change from "Jalaali" to "Jalali". Of course it's just my personal suggestion. later, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Hi Omid, Hi, > A couple of points: The Jalaali calendar, can you please > tell me in which of the ECMA standards is it defined? None. I don't agree with that name for our current calendar. It is the name Microsoft has selected. I believe 'Persian calendar' or 'Iranian calendar' is more correct (and known) for the international name of "Hejrie Shamsi". > The same about the locale definitions. Which defenitions you mean exactly? Those fields that you see in the draft are properties of some globalization classes defined in the .NET Base Class Library (BCL), and we are defining their expected return values for Iran. > And next: You are saying that the Mono and DotGNU projects > "are published under noncommercial shared-source licenses". > I'm almost sure this is not the case. "shared-source" is the > old Microsoft trick. Both of this two platforms (Mono and > DotGNU) can be used for commercial purposes as well as > non-commercial, both for free. You can read more about why a > noncommercial-only license is not the best license at > http://www.fsf.org/ Yes, they are open source, and each part of them is published under the terms of a GNU licence. You're right, you can create commercial applications for these platforms as well. > Later, :) > behdad > Omid > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > > > <> > > > > > > Hello every body, especially my friends at FarsiWeb, > > > > I'm trying to point out some things here (even though you might > > already > > know) about .NET and our project. > > > > For your information: > > > > The .NET Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) and the C# > programming > > language were submitted to ECMA and ISO/IEC International > > standardization organizations a couple of years ago. The > submissions > > were ratified as standards after thorough investigations as: > > > > Standard ECMA-334 (C#) > > > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm > > > > Standard ECMA-335 (CLI) > > > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm > > > > Standard ISO/IEC 23270 (C#) > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER= > > 36 > > 768 > > > > Standard ISO/IEC 23271 (CLI) > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER= > > 36 > > 769 > > > > This resulted in raising many new open source movements > over .NET in > > the ICT community, amongst which there are three major projects by > > third parties that intend to implement versions of the .NET > Framework > > conforming to the base implementations that Microsoft has > done or is > > already underway. Those are: > > > > The Ximian's Mono Project sponsored by UNIX http://www.go-mono.com > > > > Free Software Foundation's Portable .NET > > http://www.dotgnu.org/pnet.html > > > > Corel's Rotor (Microsoft SSCLI) for FreeBSD > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/sscli > > > > > > All of these implementations are published under noncommercial > > shared-source licenses. This means we will have .NET applications > > running on a vast number of platforms quite soon, to name a > handful: > > Linux, Windows, Solaris, FreeBSD, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. We > have also a > > choice of more than 20 programming languages to choose from: APL, > > COBOL, Component Pascal, Eiffel, Fortran, Haskell, Jscript.NET, > > Mercury, Oberon, Pascal, Perl, Python, Smalltalk, Visual > Basic.NET, C# > > , Managed > > C++, etc. > > > > To make applications more interoperable between different > platforms, > > all of the implementations of CLI consider implementing the > > fundamental namespaces in the .NET Framework Class Library that > > reflect closely to what Microsoft releases. These don't include > > namespaces such as Microsoft.*, yet include those that are > referred to > > as pure .NET namespaces which System.Globalization > namespace is one of > > them. > > > > The System.Globalization is also available in .NET Compact > Framework - > > a lighter version of the framework that installs on > handheld devices. > > > > In the "Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET" project > > (IranL10nInfo for short) we have selected to work only on > those parts > > of .NET that are in the System.Globalization namespace (pure .NET). > > Any changes that Microsoft mekes on them are indirectly ported to > > every non-Microsoft implementations of the Class Library. > > > > Moreover, this project will automatically produce a good layout of > > information fields that we can simply use for other languages like > > Tajik and Afghan. > > > > > > So, we are trying to resolve some locale issues far beyond > Microsoft - > > a big name. > > > > > > > > All the best, > > Omid > > __ > > Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET > > http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/ > > > > > > Other Open Source developments over ECMA CLI: > > > > I
RE: IranL10nInfo
Hi Behdad, I heard you. Yes, you replied some tardy, but still hasty. It is good to have others' opinions but I don't like to see you opposing for nothing. You apparently wrote to Connie but I'm answering to you, Behdad. On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > [...] In short: There's much more to do than "translating" > the Microsoft list of blah blah. [...] Yes, there's much more to do but that's not enough reason for us to ignore minor (as you assume) things. > In fact I checked the IranL10nInfo as soon as Omid posted the > link, but well, had a look at the discussions and the spec, > and apparently closed the window and continued my work. You don't need to mention that. It is clear that you have studied it enough, and it is interesting that you've got so many comments from that glance. > 1) I see no apparent benefit (to anyone) in preparing a patch for > Microsoft: they don't apply it. Well, I'm not quitting because you think like that. > 2) The working group apparently didn't look at the > persiancomputing archives and other sources: we've already > answered most of the questions, So where do you think that information has come from? > but if they are lazy and want us to go say write this in that > column, No, we've got more important things to do. Is that what I asked?? Or is that the answer to my considering and respecting your ideas? > 3) As I said before, they are translating stuff, not > gathering the Iran's locale information. We are translating those that should be translated and gathering those locale information that is required. We are fixing mistakes here or trying to make them as little as possible, and not introducing new functionality. > In Iran no one uses anything like the AM/PM of English. I already know about that. There are some defined properties that have to have some values regardless of the locale instead of returning blank results. When the clock is set to 12-hour mode (since this is possible for every locale) the time is ambiguous without an AM/PM designator. That is all the choice in front of us, so it's better to produce an acceptable output rather than a non-sense one. > Still, in their list you see they have translated AM/PM to > Ghaf.Zad./Beh.Zad., [...] Look again. It is "Sobh/Be.Zad." I believe "Ba'd az Zohr" makes sense for every PM time except at the exact 12:00 O'clock. "Asr" works but from 6 on it sounds odd (as it is in Linux). For AM, "Ghaf.Zad" or "Ghabl az Zohr" is unusual (as it is in Windows). > 4) The discussion around "Mordad" vs "Amordad" suggested that > either at least some of the people involved have been out of > country for such a long time, or they are that kind of people > that will refuse to use Arabic words! No offense meant, no > war please. If you're meaning me, yes, I'm out of country for about a year. So what? I'm not eligible to say about my country and my culture? What about yourself? Did you find "Mordad" Arabic, or "Amordad"?! Well, you're keeping so conservative man... no war! > Believe me, I read how they changed it to > "Mordad" and how open to ideas the group is. But still > that's the impression it left in me. It is still "Amordad"; I was going to point it out here to discuss, as I did not find about it in the archives. > 5) Forum discussion is not the most effective way of > communication; email is much more efficient. That's why I'm here. > 6) No one invited my/us to help, so one can't blame me/us for > not doing that :-). [...] You're speaking from your own side. I first wrote to Roozbeh and he has been kind and helping all the way. Moreover, I am not pushing or blaming anyone here, nor I see any reason for that. But if you really want to give a hand I'll appreciate. > Well, fortunately enough Omid is hanging around here and will > (hopefully) essentially move the discussion here :). It's already moved here. I hope we can have positive discussions here, Behdad. > Cheers, > behdad > More Cheers :P, Omid ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > > > [3.2.3] > > > There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. > > > However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the > > > month calendars > > ^^ > > Common? > > How about, "acceptable" or something like that? > > Well, right. How about this phrase: > [3.2.3] > "There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, > in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable > to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to > left." I'm not sure how "month calendar" makes sense in English. What about writing "in tabular representations"? > It is now updated here: > http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3 --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: FW: IranL10nInfo - First Week of The Year
On Sat, 8 May 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > Ah, it's not Unicode that does that. It's the Common Locale Repoistory > Project or something like that does that. Alright! I was just pointing to that method. > Suitable for what? For specifying Iranian Persian requirements? No, Iranian Persian requirements are those you are bringing on a native document that has general uses. The Locale Data Markup Language (LDML) seems suitable for the extensible scheme since it can be transformed into different information systems. > > roozbeh > > Omid ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
> > [3.2.3] > > There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. > > However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the > > month calendars > ^^ > Common? > How about, "acceptable" or something like that? Well, right. How about this phrase: [3.2.3] "There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to left." It is now updated here: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3 ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback
Hello, No, I did not have any additional fonts on my machine: the machine was re-installed 2 days before the experiment, with Win98SE, plus all available updates, plus NetScape Communicator 4.8 and ORinoco wireless drivers. None of these include Koodak font, do they? :-) cheers, Masoud On Sat, May 08, 2004 at 09:20:19PM -0700, C Bobroff wrote: > Masoud, > Thank you so much for the time you took to make the exhibits! > Exhibits A and C are a little depressing to look at but that's ok. > Concerning exhibit B (the Koodak font) I have a question: did you already > have the Koodak font on your computer? Did you uninstall it first? > That will be some good news if you don't have Koodak because it's > perfect on the "ancient machine!" > -Connie > > On Sat, 8 May 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: > > > Hello Connie, > > I am using IE6 (with the latest updates) and windows 98SE > > I have some screenshots for you too: > > in Tahoma: Medial Yeh not shown properly, it shows as Terminal Yeh (Exhibit A) > > Koodak looks OK to me. (I didn't check the .pdf as I didn't have acroread on that > > (ancient) machine (Exhibit B) > > Arabic font had the same problems (IMHO) as tahoma. (Exhibit C) > > And about download/render. On this P-133/40Megs of ram it took around 12-13 > > seconds to show the page completely. For comparison, slashdot.org took around 8 > > seconds. > > cheers, and good luck on next revision, > > Masoud > > > > > > On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 11:31:27PM -0700, C Bobroff wrote: > > > We've had a few discussions about WEFT before in the past but never really > > > explored it completely. Therefore, I made this demo page in both > > > English and Persian and embedded Tahoma, Koodak(by FarsiWeb) and Arabic > > > Typesetting: > > > http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm > > > > > > Can you please check if Weft has worked? Do you see my fonts correctly? > > > Is the Yeh (medial form) showing up correctly in all fonts, especially on > > > Win98? Is the load time any longer than usual? If you have the old, buggy > > > Tahoma font, is my corrected font showing up instead? If you have the old > > > Sinasoft or Borna Koodak, is my FarsiWeb Koodak showing up? > > > > > > Please report your findings! Be sure to mention which version of Windows > > > and IE. By the way, you have to uninstall these fonts if you have them, > > > otherwise, the test is not too helpful :) > > > > > > As you may know, Weft only works on Windows and IE so don't bother to > > > check on anything else. Also please don't look at the source code! I was > > > in a great hurry and yes, it's a mess. Anyone who is qualified is welcome > > > to redo it if too unbearable. I would appreciate that! > > > > > > Thanks! > > > -Connie > > > ___ > > > PersianComputing mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing > > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Hi Omid, A couple of points: The Jalaali calendar, can you please tell me in which of the ECMA standards is it defined? The same about the locale definitions. And next: You are saying that the Mono and DotGNU projects "are published under noncommercial shared-source licenses". I'm almost sure this is not the case. "shared-source" is the old Microsoft trick. Both of this two platforms (Mono and DotGNU) can be used for commercial purposes as well as non-commercial, both for free. You can read more about why a noncommercial-only license is not the best license at http://www.fsf.org/ Later, behdad On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > <> > > > Hello every body, especially my friends at FarsiWeb, > > I'm trying to point out some things here (even though you might already > know) about .NET and our project. > > For your information: > > The .NET Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) and the C# programming > language were submitted to ECMA and ISO/IEC International > standardization organizations a couple of years ago. The submissions > were ratified as standards after thorough investigations as: > > Standard ECMA-334 (C#) > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm > > Standard ECMA-335 (CLI) > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm > > Standard ISO/IEC 23270 (C#) > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=36 > 768 > > Standard ISO/IEC 23271 (CLI) > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=36 > 769 > > This resulted in raising many new open source movements over .NET in the > ICT community, amongst which there are three major projects by third > parties that intend to implement versions of the .NET Framework > conforming to the base implementations that Microsoft has done or is > already underway. Those are: > > The Ximian's Mono Project sponsored by UNIX > http://www.go-mono.com > > Free Software Foundation's Portable .NET > http://www.dotgnu.org/pnet.html > > Corel's Rotor (Microsoft SSCLI) for FreeBSD > http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/sscli > > > All of these implementations are published under noncommercial > shared-source licenses. This means we will have .NET applications > running on a vast number of platforms quite soon, to name a handful: > Linux, Windows, Solaris, FreeBSD, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. We have also a > choice of more than 20 programming languages to choose from: APL, COBOL, > Component Pascal, Eiffel, Fortran, Haskell, Jscript.NET, Mercury, > Oberon, Pascal, Perl, Python, Smalltalk, Visual Basic.NET, C# , Managed > C++, etc. > > To make applications more interoperable between different platforms, all > of the implementations of CLI consider implementing the fundamental > namespaces in the .NET Framework Class Library that reflect closely to > what Microsoft releases. These don't include namespaces such as > Microsoft.*, yet include those that are referred to as pure .NET > namespaces which System.Globalization namespace is one of them. > > The System.Globalization is also available in .NET Compact Framework - a > lighter version of the framework that installs on handheld devices. > > In the "Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET" project (IranL10nInfo > for short) we have selected to work only on those parts of .NET that are > in the System.Globalization namespace (pure .NET). Any changes that > Microsoft mekes on them are indirectly ported to every non-Microsoft > implementations of the Class Library. > > Moreover, this project will automatically produce a good layout of > information fields that we can simply use for other languages like Tajik > and Afghan. > > > So, we are trying to resolve some locale issues far beyond Microsoft - a > big name. > > > > All the best, > Omid > __ > Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET > http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/ > > > Other Open Source developments over ECMA CLI: > > Intel Lab's OCL (Open CLI Library) > http://sourceforge.net/projects/ocl/ > > Platform.NET > http://sourceforge.net/projects/platformdotnet/ > > > > Articles: > > Linux World - Bringing the CLI to Open Source (Article) > http://www.linuxworld.com/story/39216.htm?DE=1 > > Devx - Peeking under the Lid of Open Source .NET CLI Implementations > http://www.devx.com/devx/article/9725 > > > > Microsoft Open Source: > > MSDN - ECMA Standardization > http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/ecma/ > > MSDN - The Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) > http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/using/understanding/cli > > Microsoft Share Source Home Page: > http://www.microsoft.com/sharedsource/ > > > > --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Hi Connie and others, I'm replying to this old mail of you. I reply to mails quite late these days (sigh). Well, man, you have been in this business for a relatively long time and depth now. You know what's going on around, what a mess. And add to that coding the support we all talk about here for different applications, that would be a lot of work. We gotta somehow handle that all. In fact, PersianComputing is one of the lists that I don't spend that much time on, as there are always people to keep the discussion rolling. There are other lists (read: strategic places) that if Roozbeh and I do not have an eye on, they will do mistakes that will take a couple of years to fix. In short: There's much more to do than "translating" the Microsoft list of blah blah. And I'm using "translate" here for a reason (to follow). In fact I checked the IranL10nInfo as soon as Omid posted the link, but well, had a look at the discussions and the spec, and apparently closed the window and continued my work. Why? Here is a short list of my PERSONAL reasons, please no war: 1) I see no apparent benefit (to anyone) in preparing a patch for Microsoft: they don't apply it. 2) The working group apparently didn't look at the persiancomputing archives and other sources: we've already answered most of the questions, but if they are lazy and want us to go say write this in that column, No, we've got more important things to do. 3) As I said before, they are translating stuff, not gathering the Iran's locale information. I give an example: In Iran no one uses anything like the AM/PM of English. Still, in their list you see they have translated AM/PM to Ghaf.Zad./Beh.Zad., which definitely first appeared in Microsoft Windows. You ask me and I tell you we don't use them in Persian, and if you insist on having a translation for that, "Sobh/Asr" is a best fit. 4) The discussion around "Mordad" vs "Amordad" suggested that either at least some of the people involved have been out of country for such a long time, or they are that kind of people that will refuse to use Arabic words! No offense meant, no war please. Believe me, I read how they changed it to "Mordad" and how open to ideas the group is. But still that's the impression it left in me. 5) Forum discussion is not the most effective way of communication; email is much more efficient. 6) No one invited my/us to help, so one can't blame me/us for not doing that :-). It's yet another project that intersects with my interests, but I already got so many open ones... Well, fortunately enough Omid is hanging around here and will (hopefully) essentially move the discussion here :). Cheers, behdad On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote: [...] > That is to be expected that they aren't jumping up and down for joy about > your project. They've reiterated their stance on Microsoft often enough. > If you ask Microsoft to help you with your Linux project, you might also > get the same warm reception, right? However, from what I've observed, the > Farsiweb-Microsoft relationship has been mutally beneficial even when > there is no obvious profit to either side. > > > I'm not exactly sure what you want FarsiWeb to do beyond what they're > already doing. Even to look over your data would require time they don't > have... [...] > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
