Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 07:12:22AM +0200, Chris Travers wrote: > If we have a committer who loudly and proudly goes to neo-nazi rallies or > pickup artist / pro-rape meetups, then actually yes, I have a problem with > that. That impacts my ability to work in the community, impacts

Re: Code of Conduct plan

ss bad behavior in ourselves and in others, and however good or bad we are today as people, we should try to be better people. Whether or not the code of conduct plan that the core committee has decided to implement is likely to move us in that direction remains unclear to me. I can't say I'm

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 5:11 AM Craig Ringer wrote: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 23:11, James Keener wrote: > >> And if you believe strongly that a given statement you may have made is >>> not objectionable...you should be willing to defend it in an adjudication >>> investigation. >> >> >> So

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 23:11, James Keener wrote: > And if you believe strongly that a given statement you may have made is >> not objectionable...you should be willing to defend it in an adjudication >> investigation. > > > So because someone doesn't like what I say in a venue 100% separate

Re: Code of Conduct plan

I see a CoC as an infiltration of the PostgreSQL community which has worked OK since at least 10 years. The project owners have let their care slacken. I request that the project owners EXPEL/EXCOMMUNICATE ALL those who are advancing what can only be seen as an instrument for harassing members of

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 09/17/2018 10:39 AM, Chris Travers wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 5:28 PM Joshua D. Drake > wrote: ... >> My feedback is that those two sentences provide an overarching authority >> that .Org does not have the right to enforce ... > Fascinating that this would, on its face, not apply to a

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 5:28 PM Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On 09/17/2018 08:11 AM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote: > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:52:34 + > Martin Mueller > wrote: > > > ... The overreach is dubious on both practical and theoretical grounds. > "Stick to your knitting " or the KISS

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 09/17/2018 08:11 AM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote: On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:52:34 + Martin Mueller wrote: ... The overreach is dubious on both practical and theoretical grounds. "Stick to your knitting " or the KISS principle seem good advice in this context. Moderated mailing lists ain't been

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:52:34 + Martin Mueller wrote: > ... The overreach is dubious on both practical and theoretical grounds. > "Stick to your knitting " or the KISS principle seem good advice in this > context. Moderated mailing lists ain't been broken all these years, therefore they

Re: Code of Conduct plan

As long as subscribers to the list or attendants at a conference do not violate explicit or implicit house rules, what business does Postgres have worrying about what they do or say elsewhere? Some version of an 'all-of-life' clause may be appropriate to the Marines or federal judges, but it

Code of Conduct plan

On 2018-09-16 00:00, Mark Kirkwood wrote: > On 15/09/18 08:17, Tom Lane wrote: >> Yeah, this.  The PG community is mostly nice people, AFAICT.  I'll be >> astonished (and worried) if the CoC committee finds much to do.  We're >> implementing this mostly to make newcomers to the project feel that

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 15/09/18 08:17, Tom Lane wrote: Yeah, this. The PG community is mostly nice people, AFAICT. I'll be astonished (and worried) if the CoC committee finds much to do. We're implementing this mostly to make newcomers to the project feel that it's a safe space. Agreed. However I think the

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 9/14/18 11:13 AM, Robert Haas wrote: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Dave Page wrote: That wording has been in the published draft for 18 months, and noone objected to it that I'm aware of. There will always be people who don't like some of the wording, much as there are often people who

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Dear all, On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:18 PM Tom Lane wrote: > Robert Haas writes: > > It's not clear to me that there IS a general consensus here. It looks > > to me like the unelected core team got together and decided to impose > > a vaguely-worded code of conduct on a vaguely-defined group

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Robert Haas writes: > It's not clear to me that there IS a general consensus here. It looks > to me like the unelected core team got together and decided to impose > a vaguely-worded code of conduct on a vaguely-defined group of people > covering not only their work on PostgreSQL but also their

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 11:10 AM, Dave Page wrote: > That wording has been in the published draft for 18 months, and noone > objected to it that I'm aware of. There will always be people who don't like > some of the wording, much as there are often people who disagree with the > way a patch to

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 09/14/2018 07:41 AM, James Keener wrote: > Community is people who joined it We're not a "community." I do not think you are going to get very many people on board with that argument. As anyone who knows me will attest I am one of the most contrarian members of this community but I still

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018, 15:55 James Keener, wrote: > > > Yes. They can. The people who make the majority of the contributions to >> the software can decide what happens, because without them there is no >> software. If you want to spend 20 years of your life >> > > So everyone who moderates this

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 7:19 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Sure and that is unfortunate but isn't it up to the individual to deal with > it through appropriate channels for whatever platform they are on? All of > these platforms are: > > 1. Voluntary to use > 2. Have their own Terms of Use and

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 09/14/2018 06:59 AM, Robert Eckhardt wrote: I really have to object to this addition: "This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members, whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org infrastructure, so long as there is not another Code of

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote: > On 9/14/18 7:19 AM, Dave Page wrote: > >> >> >> > >> No one is tracking anything as part of the CoC. That's nothing but a >> straw man argument. >> > > Not buying it or the below is null and void: > > "This Code is meant to cover all

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Greetings, * Adrian Klaver (adrian.kla...@aklaver.com) wrote: > On 9/14/18 1:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: > >On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:53 PM Tom Lane >> wrote: > > > >I wrote: > > > Stephen Frost mailto:sfr...@snowman.net>> > >writes: > > >> We seem to

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> On 14. Sep 2018, at 16:31, Ilya Kosmodemiansky wrote: > > > > > I could only heavily +1 this. I can get I can’t get of course, sorry for typo > from where comes the idea that community is only what happens just on > postgresql.org or just on some other channel community uses. > .

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 09/14/2018 07:36 AM, Dave Page wrote: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:21 PM, James Keener > wrote: Now, you may say that (2) would be rejected by the committee, but I would counter that it's still a stain on me and something that

Re: Code of Conduct plan

I hesitate to exacerbate what is a society-wide debate that is being worked out across organizations across the spectrum, but if I may provide a thought for consideration. The framing and language of the Code of Conduct, as written and proposed, includes a large number of checkpoints to protect

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Greetings, * Joshua D. Drake (j...@commandprompt.com) wrote: > I think this is a complicated issue. On the one hand, postgresql.org has no > business telling people how to act outside of postgresql.org. Full stop. This is exactly what this CoC points out- yes, PG.Org absolutely can and should

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 4:14 PM Dave Page wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Joshua D. Drake > wrote: > >> On 09/14/2018 01:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: >> >> >> I apologize for the glacial slowness with which this has all been moving. >>> The core team has now agreed to some

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> > And if you believe strongly that a given statement you may have made is > not objectionable...you should be willing to defend it in an adjudication > investigation. So because someone doesn't like what I say in a venue 100% separate from postgres, I have to subject myself, and waste my

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:57 PM, James Keener wrote: > > >> Yes, I believe so. Isn't that what "To that end, we have established >> this Code of Conduct for community interaction and participation in the >> project’s work and the community at large." basically says? >> > > No? What's the

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 09/14/2018 07:51 AM, Dave Page wrote: If that business is publicly bringing the project into disrepute, or harassing other community members and they approach us about it, then it becomes our business. If it's unrelated to PostgreSQL, then it's your personal business and not

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:55 PM, James Keener wrote: > > > Yes. They can. The people who make the majority of the contributions to >> the software can decide what happens, because without them there is no >> software. If you want to spend 20 years of your life >> > > So everyone who moderates

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> > Yes, I believe so. Isn't that what "To that end, we have established this Code > of Conduct for community interaction and participation in the project’s > work and the community at large." basically says? > No? What's the "community at large"? To me that sounds like "all interactions" whether

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Yes. They can. The people who make the majority of the contributions to the > software can decide what happens, because without them there is no > software. If you want to spend 20 years of your life > So everyone who moderates this group and that will be part of the CoC committee will have had

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> To many of us, we absolutely are a community. Remember, there are people > here who have been around for 20+ years, of which many have become close > friends, having started working on PostgreSQL as a hobby. We have always > seen the project as a community of like-minded technologists, and

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:43 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On 09/14/2018 07:36 AM, Dave Page wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:21 PM, James Keener wrote: > >> >> Now, you may say that (2) would be rejected by the committee, but I would counter that it's still a stain on me and

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:41 PM, James Keener wrote: > > Community is people who joined it > > We're not a "community." We're people using email to get help with or > discuss technical aspects of PostgreSQL. The types of discussions that > would normally be held within a "community" would be

Fwd: Code of Conduct plan

I didn't realize they had replied personally to me. -- Forwarded message -- From: James Keener Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:43 AM Subject: Re: Code of Conduct plan To: Dave Page If that business is publicly bringing the project into disrepute, or > harassing other commun

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:37 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On 09/14/2018 07:14 AM, Dave Page wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Joshua D. Drake > wrote: > >> On 09/14/2018 01:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: >> >> >> I apologize for the glacial slowness with which this has all been

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> Community is people who joined it We're not a "community." We're people using email to get help with or discuss technical aspects of PostgreSQL. The types of discussions that would normally be held within a "community" would be entirely off-topic here. We should be professional to each other

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 09/14/2018 07:14 AM, Dave Page wrote: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Joshua D. Drake > wrote: On 09/14/2018 01:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: I apologize for the glacial slowness with which this has all been moving. The core team

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On 09/14/2018 01:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: > > > I apologize for the glacial slowness with which this has all been moving. >> The core team has now agreed to some revisions to the draft CoC based on >> the comments in this thread; see

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:21 PM, James Keener wrote: > > Now, you may say that (2) would be rejected by the committee, but I would >>> counter that it's still a stain on me and something that will forever >>> appear >>> along side my name in search results and that the amount of time and >>>

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> On 14. Sep 2018, at 16:17, Dave Page wrote: > > > The lists are just one of many different ways people in this community > interact. I could only heavily +1 this. I can get from where comes the idea that community is only what happens just on postgresql.org or just on some other channel

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 9/14/18 7:19 AM, Dave Page wrote: No one is tracking anything as part of the CoC. That's nothing but a straw man argument. Not buying it or the below is null and void: "This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members, whether or not it takes place within

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> Now, you may say that (2) would be rejected by the committee, but I would >> counter that it's still a stain on me and something that will forever >> appear >> along side my name in search results and that the amount of time and >> stress it'd take me to defend myself would make my voluntarily

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote: > On 9/14/18 6:59 AM, Robert Eckhardt wrote: > >> On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 9:41 AM, Adrian Klaver >> wrote: >> >>> On 9/14/18 1:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: >>> >> > I really have to object to this addition: "This Code is meant to

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:10 PM, James Keener wrote: > I understand the concern, however, if you look at how attacks happen > >> it is frequently through other sites. Specifically under/poorly >> moderated sites. For specific examples, people who have issues with >> people on Quora will

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 15:10, James Keener wrote: > I understand the concern, however, if you look at how attacks happen > >> it is frequently through other sites. Specifically under/poorly >> moderated sites. For specific examples, people who have issues with >> people on Quora will frequently

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 9/14/18 6:59 AM, Robert Eckhardt wrote: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 9:41 AM, Adrian Klaver wrote: On 9/14/18 1:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: I really have to object to this addition: "This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members, whether or not it takes place within

Re: Code of Conduct plan

I understand the concern, however, if you look at how attacks happen > it is frequently through other sites. Specifically under/poorly > moderated sites. For specific examples, people who have issues with > people on Quora will frequently go after them on Facebook and Twitter. > > these aren't a

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 09/14/2018 01:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: I apologize for the glacial slowness with which this has all been moving. The core team has now agreed to some revisions to the draft CoC based on the comments in this thread; see

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 9:41 AM, Adrian Klaver wrote: > On 9/14/18 1:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:53 PM Tom Lane > > wrote: >> >> I wrote: >> > Stephen Frost mailto:sfr...@snowman.net>> >> writes: >> >> We seem to

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 9/14/18 1:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:53 PM Tom Lane > wrote: I wrote: > Stephen Frost mailto:sfr...@snowman.net>> writes: >> We seem to be a bit past that timeline...  Do we have any update on when >> this

Re: Code of Conduct plan

;pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org" , "pgsql-advoc...@lists.postgresql.org" Subject: Re: Code of Conduct plan I find a lot of neo-con/trumpian political stances moronic, short-sighted, and anti-intellectual and therefore consider them offensive, an affront on my way of life, and a st

Re: Code of Conduct plan

I find a lot of neo-con/trumpian political stances moronic, short-sighted, and anti-intellectual and therefore consider them offensive, an affront on my way of life, and a stain on my country. 1) Can I report anyone holding such views and discussing them on a 3rd party forum? 2) Could I be

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Please take me off this list. > On Sep 14, 2018, at 05:31, Chris Travers wrote: > > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:53 PM Tom Lane > wrote: > I wrote: > > Stephen Frost mailto:sfr...@snowman.net>> writes: > >> We seem to be a bit past that timeline... Do we have

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Chris Travers wrote: > I really have to object to this addition: > "This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members, > whether or not it takes place within postgresql.org infrastructure, so long > as there is not another Code of Conduct that

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 11:45 AM Ilya Kosmodemiansky wrote: > On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:31 AM, Chris Travers > wrote: > > I really have to object to this addition: > > "This Code is meant to cover all interaction between community members, > > whether or not it takes place within

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:53 PM Tom Lane wrote: > I wrote: > > Stephen Frost writes: > >> We seem to be a bit past that timeline... Do we have any update on when > >> this will be moving forward? > >> Or did I miss something? > > > Nope, you didn't. Folks have been on holiday which made it

Re: Code of Conduct plan

I wrote: > Stephen Frost writes: >> We seem to be a bit past that timeline... Do we have any update on when >> this will be moving forward? >> Or did I miss something? > Nope, you didn't. Folks have been on holiday which made it hard to keep > forward progress going, particularly with respect

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Greetings, * Tom Lane (t...@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote: > Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a result > of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of > July 1 2018. We seem to be a bit past that timeline... Do we have any update on when this

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Stephen Frost writes: > * Tom Lane (t...@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote: >> Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a result >> of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of >> July 1 2018. > We seem to be a bit past that timeline... Do we have any

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 03:22:10PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: > Greetings, > > * Tom Lane (t...@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote: > > Unless there are substantial objections, or nontrivial changes as a result > > of this round of comments, we anticipate making the CoC official as of > > July 1 2018. > > We

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 5 June 2018 at 17:34, Ozz Nixon wrote: > Sorry... > > > 1) CoC might result in developers leaving projects > > > I know this on going regurgitation is going to cause my team to > leave the project, right around 100 posts on this off topic topic it > was bad enough when the

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> On Jun 5, 2018, at 15:20, Peter Geoghegan wrote: > I don't follow. Practically any organized group has rules around > conduct, with varying degrees of formality, means of enforcement, etc. I believe the objection is to setting up a separate CoC committee, rather than using the core team as

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sven R. Kunze wrote: > 1) CoC might result in developers leaving projects > http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html This guy left LLVM for several reasons. The pertinent reason for us was that he had to agree to a code of conduct in order to

RE: Code of Conduct plan

Sorry... > 1) CoC might result in developers leaving projects I know this on going regurgitation is going to cause my team to leave the project, right around 100 posts on this off topic topic it was bad enough when the original idea came up (2 years ago I think). It used to be

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Hi PostgreSQL Community, some points I like to make mainly because of observations of how other open source projects handle this topic: 1) CoC might result in developers leaving projects http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2018-May/122922.html 2) CoC might result in not so equal peers

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Greetings, * Magnus Hagander (mag...@hagander.net) wrote: > On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 4:45 PM, Chris Travers > wrote: > > If I may suggest: The committee should be international as well and > > include people from around the world. The last thing we want is for it to > > be dominated by people

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 4:45 PM, Chris Travers wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake > wrote: > >> On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote: >> >> My comments: 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. Still it looks like it

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 06/05/2018 07:45 AM, Chris Travers wrote: It is my hope that PostgreSQL.Org -Core chooses members for that committee that are exceedingly diverse otherwise it is just an echo chamber for a single ideology and that will destroy this community. If I may suggest:  The committee

Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan

El 2018-06-05 10:54, gilberto.casti...@etecsa.cu escribió: Hello, Maybe must include policy of money support from several at member from country less earnings. El 2018-06-05 10:45, Chris Travers escribió: On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 6:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote: > > My comments: >>> >>> 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. >>> Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below. >>> >>> 2) "... engaging in behavior

Re: Code of Conduct plan

> Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a > Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which > the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee > to draft a CoC [1]. That process has taken far longer than expected, > but the committee has

Re: [MASSMAIL]Re: Code of Conduct plan

El 2018-06-04 12:52, Joshua D. Drake escribió: On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct We are now asking for a final round of community comments. Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only). If you wish to make a private

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 06/03/2018 04:08 PM, Gavin Flower wrote: My comments: 1) Reiterate my contention that this is a solution is search of problem. Still it looks like it is going forward, so see below. 2) "... engaging in behavior that may bring the PostgreSQL project into disrepute, ..." This to me is

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct We are now asking for a final round of community comments. Please send any public comments to the pgsql-general list (only). If you wish to make a private comment, you may send it to c...@postgresql.org.

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Some people are not paying attention and are sending code-of-conduct comments to all lists, not just pgsql-general, but -hackers and -advocacy too. I've seen 3 of these so far today. This is a reminder to please send the comments to pgsql-general only. -- Darren Duncan On 2018-06-03 11:29

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On Jun 3, 2018, at 16:08 , Gavin Flower wrote: > > Be very careful in attempting to codify 'correct' behaviour! +1 this is a distraction.

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 04/06/18 07:32, Adrian Klaver wrote: On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote: Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee to draft a CoC

Re: Code of Conduct plan

On 06/03/2018 11:29 AM, Tom Lane wrote: Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee to draft a CoC [1]. That process has taken far longer than

Re: Code of Conduct plan

Two years ago, there was considerable discussion about creating a Code of Conduct for the Postgres community, as a result of which the core team announced a plan to create an exploration committee to draft a CoC [1]. That process has taken far longer than expected, but the committee has not been