Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness WOT

[Mike Mackintosh]

Thanks

:P

Sent from my iPhone

On May 31, 2011, at 9:54, "Jay Blanchard"  wrote:

> [snip]
>> I beg to differ - the sarcastic remarks have been here since day one.
> 
> Yeah *SHSH* What was he thinking?!
> 
> ;)
> [/snip]
> 
> I know huh? Whatevs.
> 
> I added something to the subject so that those who don't want to read
> these can send them to /dev/null appropriately.
> 
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RE: [PHP] iPhone sadness WOT

[Jay Blanchard]

[snip]
> I beg to differ - the sarcastic remarks have been here since day one.

Yeah *SHSH* What was he thinking?!

;)
[/snip]

I know huh? Whatevs.

I added something to the subject so that those who don't want to read
these can send them to /dev/null appropriately.

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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Robert Cummings]

On 11-05-31 07:15 AM, Jay Blanchard wrote:

[snip]
I can remember when it first started, no moaning about this or that,
just pure PHP, and no sarcastic comments either, bring back the good old

days :)
[/snip]

I beg to differ - the sarcastic remarks have been here since day one.


Yeah *SHSH* What was he thinking?!

;)

Cheers,
Rob.
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Govinda]

> Is there any way that we could simply ban these ridiculous top-posting vs 
> bottom-posting threads that seem to come along every few weeks?  I frankly 
> don't care where a person writes a reply - I'm quite able to scan through an 
> email message to find the relevant points regardless.  Maybe we could add a 
> [posting position rant] tag onto emails that discuss this topic so those of 
> us who couldn't care less could simply have them directed straight to the 
> trash can?


My favorite response is when Dan jumps in and reminds that this list's rules 
are not open to debate or opinion (in the sense that the opinions do not affect 
the rules).  On this topic the rule of this list is "do not top post".  It 
anyone top posts they are ignorant of the rules, or choosing to ignore them.

- Govinda

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RE: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Jay Blanchard]

[snip]
I can remember when it first started, no moaning about this or that,
just pure PHP, and no sarcastic comments either, bring back the good old

days :)
[/snip]

I beg to differ - the sarcastic remarks have been here since day one. 

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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Alexis]

Here here Tim, I thought this was meant to be a PHP list.

I can remember when it first started, no moaning about this or that,
just pure PHP, and no sarcastic comments either, bring back the good old 
days :)


Alexis

On 30/05/11 17:04, Tim Thorburn wrote:

Is there any way that we could simply ban these ridiculous top-posting
vs bottom-posting threads that seem to come along every few weeks? I
frankly don't care where a person writes a reply - I'm quite able to
scan through an email message to find the relevant points regardless.
Maybe we could add a [posting position rant] tag onto emails that
discuss this topic so those of us who couldn't care less could simply
have them directed straight to the trash can?



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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Tim Thorburn]

Is there any way that we could simply ban these ridiculous top-posting 
vs bottom-posting threads that seem to come along every few weeks?  I 
frankly don't care where a person writes a reply - I'm quite able to 
scan through an email message to find the relevant points regardless.  
Maybe we could add a [posting position rant] tag onto emails that 
discuss this topic so those of us who couldn't care less could simply 
have them directed straight to the trash can?


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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Geoff Shang]

On Mon, 30 May 2011, Andre Polykanine wrote:


most  of  you  post your messages *after* the quotes. It's
really  not  comfortable: I use screenreading software here and I need
to scroll with my down arrow key before I see the actual message.


I use screen reading software as well and prefer bottom-posting.  Of 
course, those who quote an entire message (or messages) before their post 
should be shot, but thankfully this is a minority of people.


Since we're all pitching in with our arguments for top/bottom posting, 
I'll briefly state mine:


1.  Bottom (or at least "not top") posting allows you to interleave your 
responses amongst the quoted text.  This makes it a lot easier to know 
what is being responded to, and actually also makes it a lot more likely 
that all points that need answers will actually be answered.


2.  Particularly if #1 is followed, quoted material more often than not 
tends to be trimmed to what is relevant.  Top-posting not only usually 
results in the entire message being quoted, but often the entire thread 
right back to the beginning (or at least back to whoever bottom-posted 
last on it).  This can cause very large messages fairly quickly, 
especially if combined with HTML mail (don't get me started on *that* 
one).


Unfortunately, Outlook Express (and perhaps others) seem to actively 
discourage doing the right thing.  One reason is that at least in Outlook 
Express, it's impossible to set different quoting settings for replies and 
forwards.  So you either end up with forwards with all quoted lines (very 
annoying to listen to I assure you), or replies where it's impossible to 
tell what's quoting and what's new text (unless you're sending as HTML 
mail of course).


And of course, the single reason (IMHO) why it's likely more people 
top-post - it's less work.


Geoff.


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Re: Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Micky Hulse]

The WebDesign-L has been around since early 1997... For as long as I
can remember, the policy (on all list-servs I post to) has been "no
top posting" and "trim quotes".

Here's WD-L's policy page:



Lot's of great info there...

Under the "Message Body" heading:

[[

Do not top-post; write your reply below the quoted portion(s) of the
message to which you are replying.[Hide]
Putting your reply above a quoted message makes it difficult for
others to know exactly which point you are replying to. Quoting
portions of the preceding message above your reply helps others follow
along.

Trim your replies. Avoid quoting the entire preceding post, and take
care not to include the list footer
When replying, quote only what is needed for context. While most
people will not remember the previous message verbatim, you should
assume that those interested have been following the thread and do not
need to reread the previous post to understand yours. Quoting the
entire message wastes bandwidth, annoys members, and makes the digest
hard to read.

Avoid over-trimming.
Include names, but not the email addresses, of persons being quoted,
relevant URLs, and enough of the original post so that readers know to
what and whom you’re responding. If you’re responding to several
posts, or to the thread in general, please say so.

]]

I personally try to follow all the rules on that page for all of the
list-servs I am a member of.

For personal e-mails, that's a different story... I have found that
most folks, that don't use list-servs, don't get inline replies and
bottom posting (with quote above reply).

Cheers,
Micky

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Re: Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Tim Streater]

On 30 May 2011 at 19:07, jean-baptiste verrey  
wrote: 

> I like how people just like to complain about everything^^
> But as the debate is raging I had a look over internet and
> http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html gave the best argument ever :
> we read from *top* to *bottom *so top posting makes you read useless
> information^^

Actually, if you're trying to make *that* argument, then in fact the reverse is 
true: *bottom* posting makes you read useless information - because all the 
stuff I see first I've seen before. It's worse on Usenet in fact because there 
are some * who never learnt to snip. So I have to scroll down two pages 
just to see their one-liner. Sometimes that's a problem here, too.

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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[jean-baptiste verrey]

I like how people just like to complain about everything^^
But as the debate is raging I had a look over internet and
http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html gave the best argument ever :
we read from *top* to *bottom *so top posting makes you read useless
information^^

Don't worry, be PHaPpy!

On 30 May 2011 19:01, Lester Caine  wrote:

> Ashley Sheridan wrote:
>
>> And,  BTW, this bottom posting has started just two or three years ago
>>> >when Thunderbird came in place.
>>>
>> Erm, bottom posting has been the standard since day 1 until Microsoft came
>> along and changed it with Outlook. Most people who use Windows tend not to
>> change basic settings from their defaults.
>>
>
> Exactly ...
> I've email archives going back to 1992 and ALL of the early stuff is nicely
> formatted with in-line and bottom posted expansion. I've actually been
> editing things I would like to keep to put some sense back into the archive
> - but on the most part just trimming reams of unnecessary repeated sigs
> where people have not even bothered looking at what they quoted! I've got a
> nice module on my php client management system that trims stuff
> automatically for me when I'm uploading old messages.
>
>
> --
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> -
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> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Lester Caine]

Ashley Sheridan wrote:

And,  BTW, this bottom posting has started just two or three years ago
>when Thunderbird came in place.

Erm, bottom posting has been the standard since day 1 until Microsoft came 
along and changed it with Outlook. Most people who use Windows tend not to 
change basic settings from their defaults.


Exactly ...
I've email archives going back to 1992 and ALL of the early stuff is nicely 
formatted with in-line and bottom posted expansion. I've actually been editing 
things I would like to keep to put some sense back into the archive - but on the 
most part just trimming reams of unnecessary repeated sigs where people have not 
even bothered looking at what they quoted! I've got a nice module on my php 
client management system that trims stuff automatically for me when I'm 
uploading old messages.


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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Larry Martell]

On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Andre Polykanine  wrote:
> And,  BTW, this bottom posting has started just two or three years ago
> when Thunderbird came in place.

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Since email
began bottom posting was the standard. It wasn't until the sheeple who
drink the Microsoft kool-aid came along that people started
top-posting.

And Thunderbird came out in 2003, not 'two or three years ago.'

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Ken Kixmoeller]

On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Ashley Sheridan
 wrote:
> Erm,... Most people who use Windows tend not to change basic settings from 
> their defaults.

Erm, most Winders users have no clue *how* to change them, nor that
there might be some reason to do so.

Ken

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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Ashley Sheridan]

>And,  BTW, this bottom posting has started just two or three years ago
>when Thunderbird came in place.

Erm, bottom posting has been the standard since day 1 until Microsoft came 
along and changed it with Outlook. Most people who use Windows tend not to 
change basic settings from their defaults.


Thanks
Ash
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Andre Polykanine]

Hello Lester,

Actually,  I  get  what  you're  saying.  But  it's true if you read a
message  like an Html page. then you have to press one or two keys and
here you are.
But for some reasons even now we are required to quote the messages at
the  bottom. Be saying "we" I mean those who work for companies making
the accessibility solutions.
And,  BTW, this bottom posting has started just two or three years ago
when Thunderbird came in place.
But I'll make a template that inserts the text below the quotes if you want :-).

-- 
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Andre
Skype: Francophile
My blog: http://oire.org/menelion (mostly in Russian)
Twitter: http://twitter.com/m_elensule
Facebook: http://facebook.com/menelion

 Original message 
From: Lester Caine 
To: php-general@lists.php.net
Date created: , 4:15:12 PM
Subject: [PHP] iPhone sadness


  Andre Polykanine wrote:
> Hello Lester,
>
> Sorry,  I  don't  get  what  you mean by bottom posting but here is my
> complains:  most  of  you  post your messages*after*  the quotes. It's
> really  not  comfortable: I use screenreading software here and I need
> to scroll with my down arrow key before I see the actual message.

Then you need a better screen reading software - the ones I have seen will jump 
correctly to the first 'non-quoted' item, then you can scroll back up to the 
related item if you need to review it. Putting comments BEFORE the quote is 
simply the wrong way around and is a lot more difficult to follow how ever you 
access it conventionally. The 'prefered' method for this list is in-line or 
bottom posting and the requests to change that have been rejected by the 
majority of users to date.

I develop systems that are used by visually impaired users and in general the 
norm is for correctly ordered messaging - not reverse ordered ones

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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Lester Caine]

Andre Polykanine wrote:

Hello Lester,

Sorry,  I  don't  get  what  you mean by bottom posting but here is my
complains:  most  of  you  post your messages*after*  the quotes. It's
really  not  comfortable: I use screenreading software here and I need
to scroll with my down arrow key before I see the actual message.


Then you need a better screen reading software - the ones I have seen will jump 
correctly to the first 'non-quoted' item, then you can scroll back up to the 
related item if you need to review it. Putting comments BEFORE the quote is 
simply the wrong way around and is a lot more difficult to follow how ever you 
access it conventionally. The 'prefered' method for this list is in-line or 
bottom posting and the requests to change that have been rejected by the 
majority of users to date.


I develop systems that are used by visually impaired users and in general the 
norm is for correctly ordered messaging - not reverse ordered ones


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Andre Polykanine]

Hello Lester,

Sorry,  I  don't  get  what  you mean by bottom posting but here is my
complains:  most  of  you  post your messages *after* the quotes. It's
really  not  comfortable: I use screenreading software here and I need
to scroll with my down arrow key before I see the actual message.


-- 
With best regards from Ukraine,
Andre
Skype: Francophile
My blog: http://oire.org/menelion (mostly in Russian)
Twitter: http://twitter.com/m_elensule
Facebook: http://facebook.com/menelion

 Original message 
From: Lester Caine 
To: php-general@lists.php.net
Date created: , 9:44:59 AM
Subject: [PHP] iPhone sadness


  Paul M Foster wrote:
>> >  There IS no right way - but it IS polite to follow the rules even if
>> >  it is a little more difficult doing it from your chosen software.
>> >  Rather than apologising or simply ignoring the guide lines.
> I would imagine that interleaved replies or bottom posting will never be
> considered offensive on any list. Whereas we all know that top posting
> can often be considered offensive, depending on the list.
>
> By the way, bottom posting only really becomes offensive when you fail
> to trim as needed.
Surely that is 'top posting' ?
But trimming IS the main complaint with ANY posting. I don't particularly 
object 
TO top posting, but 99% of the time there is NO need to have quoting switched 
on 
at all. I've seen my sig included here several times when any decent client 
will 
respect the 'sig' flag. Perhaps THAT is the default which needs looking at?
OK on smart phones 'select' is a pain in the posterior, but that at least is 
probably the best reason for nicely threading email clients. My SMS messages 
get 
threaded - so why not emails as well so that quotes are only needed when 
actually addressing key points. Oh for a perfect world :)

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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Ashley Sheridan]

"Igor Konforti"  wrote:

>What? Replay to all? Its configurable!
>However by default there is no spam signatures such as "send from my
>iphone/k9"

I didn't say the reply to all wasn't available, only that you are forced to top 
post (incidentally, were you forced to?)

I don't see my K9 Sig part as spam, as it gives a reason why my replies might 
not be as verbose as I would make them on a desktop machine. I bottom post with 
my phone.

Thanks
Ash
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Lester Caine]

Paul M Foster wrote:

>  There IS no right way - but it IS polite to follow the rules even if
>  it is a little more difficult doing it from your chosen software.
>  Rather than apologising or simply ignoring the guide lines.

I would imagine that interleaved replies or bottom posting will never be
considered offensive on any list. Whereas we all know that top posting
can often be considered offensive, depending on the list.

By the way, bottom posting only really becomes offensive when you fail
to trim as needed.

Surely that is 'top posting' ?
But trimming IS the main complaint with ANY posting. I don't particularly object 
TO top posting, but 99% of the time there is NO need to have quoting switched on 
at all. I've seen my sig included here several times when any decent client will 
respect the 'sig' flag. Perhaps THAT is the default which needs looking at?
OK on smart phones 'select' is a pain in the posterior, but that at least is 
probably the best reason for nicely threading email clients. My SMS messages get 
threaded - so why not emails as well so that quotes are only needed when 
actually addressing key points. Oh for a perfect world :)


--
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Paul M Foster]

On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 12:50:36PM +0100, Lester Caine wrote:

[snip]

> 
> There IS no right way - but it IS polite to follow the rules even if
> it is a little more difficult doing it from your chosen software.
> Rather than apologising or simply ignoring the guide lines.

I would imagine that interleaved replies or bottom posting will never be
considered offensive on any list. Whereas we all know that top posting
can often be considered offensive, depending on the list.

By the way, bottom posting only really becomes offensive when you fail
to trim as needed.

Paul

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http://quillandmouse.com

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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Igor Konforti]

What? Replay to all? Its configurable!
However by default there is no spam signatures such as "send from my
iphone/k9"
On May 29, 2011 3:29 PM, "Ashley Sheridan"  wrote:
> "Lester Caine"  wrote:
>
>>Geoff Shang wrote:
>>>
 On 29 May 2011 01:36, TR Shaw  wrote:
> (sorry for the top posting)
>
> Sent from my iPad

 Are you telling me that you can't scroll down the page on an iPad?

 I refer back to my comment that the "Sent from my iPad/iPhone" is
 inherently an apology.
>>>
>>> Ironicly, it's on by default. It can be turned off, however.
>>
>>I think that sums up many of the 'practices' that we have to put up
>>with.
>>Someone decided they did not like the current method of working, so
>>changed a
>>default, and all subsequent users simply don't know any better :(
>>
>>A crib sheet on how to configure email clients to match a particular
>>way of
>>working would be nice - except it has to be done on a list by list
>>basis in the
>>client - such as needing 'reply all' rather than 'reply', and indenting
>>quotes
>>properly.
>>
>>There IS no right way - but it IS polite to follow the rules even if it
>>is a
>>little more difficult doing it from your chosen software. Rather than
>>apologising or simply ignoring the guide lines.
>>
>>--
>>Lester Caine - G8HFL
>>-
>>Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
>>L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>>EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>>Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
>>Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
>>
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>
> I must admit that its a default on the standard email app on android as
well. I switched to using K9 mail now, which is a lot more versatile. Don't
know if you can get it on an iPhone, but there are definitely alternatives
from the stock client.
>
>
> Thanks
> Ash
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Ashley Sheridan]

"Lester Caine"  wrote:

>Geoff Shang wrote:
>>
>>> On 29 May 2011 01:36, TR Shaw  wrote:
 (sorry for the top posting)

 Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> Are you telling me that you can't scroll down the page on an iPad?
>>>
>>> I refer back to my comment that the "Sent from my iPad/iPhone" is
>>> inherently an apology.
>>
>> Ironicly, it's on by default.  It can be turned off, however.
>
>I think that sums up many of the 'practices' that we have to put up
>with.
>Someone decided they did not like the current method of working, so
>changed a
>default, and all subsequent users simply don't know any better :(
>
>A crib sheet on how to configure email clients to match a particular
>way of
>working would be nice - except it has to be done on a list by list
>basis in the
>client - such as needing 'reply all' rather than 'reply', and indenting
>quotes
>properly.
>
>There IS no right way - but it IS polite to follow the rules even if it
>is a
>little more difficult doing it from your chosen software. Rather than
>apologising or simply ignoring the guide lines.
>
>--
>Lester Caine - G8HFL
>-
>Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
>L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
>Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
>
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>To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

I must admit that its a default on the standard email app on android as well. I 
switched to using K9 mail now, which is a lot more versatile. Don't know if you 
can get it on an iPhone, but there are definitely alternatives from the stock 
client.


Thanks
Ash
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Lester Caine]

Geoff Shang wrote:



On 29 May 2011 01:36, TR Shaw  wrote:

(sorry for the top posting)

Sent from my iPad


Are you telling me that you can't scroll down the page on an iPad?

I refer back to my comment that the "Sent from my iPad/iPhone" is
inherently an apology.


Ironicly, it's on by default.  It can be turned off, however.


I think that sums up many of the 'practices' that we have to put up with. 
Someone decided they did not like the current method of working, so changed a 
default, and all subsequent users simply don't know any better :(


A crib sheet on how to configure email clients to match a particular way of 
working would be nice - except it has to be done on a list by list basis in the 
client - such as needing 'reply all' rather than 'reply', and indenting quotes 
properly.


There IS no right way - but it IS polite to follow the rules even if it is a 
little more difficult doing it from your chosen software. Rather than 
apologising or simply ignoring the guide lines.


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Lester Caine - G8HFL
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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Geoff Shang]

On Sun, 29 May 2011, Richard Quadling wrote:


On 29 May 2011 01:36, TR Shaw  wrote:

(sorry for the top posting)

Sent from my iPad



Are you telling me that you can't scroll down the page on an iPad?

I refer back to my comment that the "Sent from my iPad/iPhone" is
inherently an apology.


Ironicly, it's on by default.  It can be turned off, however.

Geoff.


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Re: [PHP] iPhone sadness

[Simon J Welsh]

On 29/05/2011, at 9:48 PM, Richard Quadling wrote:

> On 29 May 2011 01:36, TR Shaw  wrote:
>> (sorry for the top posting)
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
> 
> Are you telling me that you can't scroll down the page on an iPad?
> 
> I refer back to my comment that the "Sent from my iPad/iPhone" is
> inherently an apology.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Richard Quadling
> Twitter : EE : Zend : PHPDoc
> @RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY : bit.ly/lFnVea

The signature is inserted at the top. Refer back to the replies to your comment.

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[PHP] iPhone sadness

[Richard Quadling]

On 29 May 2011 01:36, TR Shaw  wrote:
> (sorry for the top posting)
>
> Sent from my iPad
>

Are you telling me that you can't scroll down the page on an iPad?

I refer back to my comment that the "Sent from my iPad/iPhone" is
inherently an apology.



-- 
Richard Quadling
Twitter : EE : Zend : PHPDoc
@RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY : bit.ly/lFnVea

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