Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ed: How do you accomplish that? I am very interested. Jeff Jeff Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] SanDC, Inc. 623-582-0323 Fax 623-869-0675 Phoenix Python User Group - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ed Leafe wrote: On Nov 4, 2008, at 8:14 PM, Ricardo Araoz wrote: I had a client with 28,000 desktops. Deploying (through large-scale, scripted, well-tested mechanisms) is a big deal. Well, you are trading downloading the whole app in one go, or downloading it a window at a time. This is the issue that I addressed when making Dabo able to be served just as a web app is served. It is not a solid .exe single file, but a series of text files, either Python scripts, XML files or image files. You can update a single UI file on the server, and the next time that file is used at the client, the latest is sucked down from the server to the client, just like a browser hitting a website. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Nov 5, 2008, at 7:57 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote: Ed: How do you accomplish that? I am very interested. You *do* know that Dabo is open source, right? Just look for yourself! ;-) -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Ed Leafe wrote: Ed: How do you accomplish that? I am very interested. You *do* know that Dabo is open source, right? Just look for yourself! ;-) OK, sorry for being a smart-ass. Can't help it sometimes! Basically, the app knows its home directory, and creates a list of all the files and their timestamps. It sends that to the server, which does the same, and compares the two. If there is no difference, we're done. If there are any changes, the servers zips up just those changes into a temp file, and sends the name of that file back to the client. The client responds by downloading the file and unzipping it to bring it up to date. For lightweight files, such as .py scripts and .cdxml UI files, the whole process happens as fast as you can load a typical web page in a browser. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ed Leafe wrote: Basically, the app knows its home directory, and creates a list of all the files and their timestamps. It sends that to the server, which does the same, and compares the two. If there is no difference, we're done. If there are any changes, the servers zips up just those changes into a temp file, and sends the name of that file back to the client. The client responds by downloading the file and unzipping it to bring it up to date. For lightweight files, such as .py scripts and .cdxml UI files, the whole process happens as fast as you can load a typical web page in a browser. Ed, Do you avoid the zip part if the file is under a certain size? For really small files (which I'm betting many are), it may take more time to zip/pass/unzip than to just pass as is. ??? ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:45 AM, MB Software Solutions General Account wrote: Do you avoid the zip part if the file is under a certain size? For really small files (which I'm betting many are), it may take more time to zip/pass/unzip than to just pass as is. ??? No, as that would add complexity with almost zero benefit. Really, the zip/unzip is extremely fast (profiling shows 0.000 times for one or two files), and the zip also contains a manifest file that contains instructions for syncing the systems. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ed: Thanks for the non-smart-ass answer. I have combed through Dabo a lot of times for answers but some take more research than others. I just thought I would ask and you were gracious enough to answer (the second time). ;^) Thanks, Jeff Jeff Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] SanDC, Inc. 623-582-0323 Fax 623-869-0675 Phoenix Python User Group - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ed Leafe wrote: On Nov 5, 2008, at 8:10 AM, Ed Leafe wrote: Ed: How do you accomplish that? I am very interested. You *do* know that Dabo is open source, right? Just look for yourself! ;-) OK, sorry for being a smart-ass. Can't help it sometimes! Basically, the app knows its home directory, and creates a list of all the files and their timestamps. It sends that to the server, which does the same, and compares the two. If there is no difference, we're done. If there are any changes, the servers zips up just those changes into a temp file, and sends the name of that file back to the client. The client responds by downloading the file and unzipping it to bring it up to date. For lightweight files, such as .py scripts and .cdxml UI files, the whole process happens as fast as you can load a typical web page in a browser. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At least nothing new that I dislike. Must be nice. Then again, I guess I made that decision about DotNet. Well, you left out the math module and the os module and the file module and the i/o module and the curses module and .. But hey, what's left for the language then? About 12 reserved words? For the classic languages, that's true: those languages that came out of academia or computer scientists: LISP, Fortran, C, C++, there's usually a pretty limited vocabulary. It tends to be vendors who throw in everything including the kitchen sink. But the point is you could deploy applications WITHOUT them if you choose to. I'd rather keep that choice. You can do that on web site. I have URLs that return only text, only XML, only a graphic. You don't have to return gaudy pages fully of splashy graphics and dancing Flash files. I'd prefer you didn't :) Oh! Wow! I wish we had XML in desktop apps! You've convinced me! Smartaleck! Are you intentionally missing the point or just avoiding it? When I was talking about XML in a web app, I'm thinking of the XHTML the search engines can parse, the RSS and Atom and other microformats you can use to advertise your application or services, offer subscriptions or publish data. You can do that with your desktop app, too. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 10:37 AM, MB Software Solutions General Account [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen Russell wrote: CSS to control the look of your site is fantastic. Making a change in that layout will save you from hitting every form in your winform system. Well, if you've subclassed your controls properly, winforms are just as easy to control the look. No advantage there. -- You have not used CSS. Manipulation of a CSS is much easier then crafting controls. You miss the point that CSS abstracts the control from it's display. For web apps you would be surpised that time spent in the GUI is 60-40 or worse. The larger percentage is for making the Look where the lesser is for the functionality. CSS tries to offset that unbalance. AJAX for visual correction of a true C/S feel for your app. Ok, but the winform app does this easily if done right, imo, so no magic required. -- AJAX just hides the postback flash in the browser. Nothing more then hiding the true operation of what is going on. When you identify an item and need corresponding data you have to fetch it, and present it. It could be a change to the data in a second picker control, list or grid. In a winform app you don't have the postback effect. -- Stephen Russell Sr. Production Systems Programmer Mimeo.com Memphis TN 901.246-0159 ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen Russell wrote: A web app has the power of change. Quick change, across the world with very little impact on your infrastructure when you do. The ability to add another language allowing your app to open up another market is easy in a web environment. As opposed to difficult in a desktop app? C'mon! -- Changing 50,000 desktop apps across 15 countries? What if your change was in 2 new GUIs and 15 biz rules? Your site will have to pound out new EXE delivery attempts. CSS to control the look of your site is fantastic. Making a change in that layout will save you from hitting every form in your winform system. You mean as in using classes and inheritance or composition? -- I would say composition in the fact that Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style (fonts, colors, spacing, images) to Web documents. It is not inheretance and is client based, so it is download once and reuse as needed. -- Stephen Russell Sr. Production Systems Programmer Mimeo.com Memphis TN 901.246-0159 ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Stephen, You are mistaken. I've used CSS already...over 6 years ago, in fact. I agree with your comment. It *is* great. I just was saying that you were comparing that to winforms assuming that a user would have to manually change every control, and my comment was that if he'd subclassed his controls, he wouldn't have to change *every* control. You miss the point that CSS abstracts the control from it's display. No, I know that. I didn't miss that point. That was the problem with classic ASP--that it mixed the content with the markup. Or the problem with monolithic designed Fox apps where they didn't separate the UI from the Bizobj/DataObj layers. For web apps you would be surpised that time spent in the GUI is 60-40 or worse. The larger percentage is for making the Look where the lesser is for the functionality. CSS tries to offset that unbalance. I would agree that more time is spent for appearance in web pages than the amount of time required for appearance in winforms. AJAX just hides the postback flash in the browser. Nothing more then hiding the true operation of what is going on. When you identify an item and need corresponding data you have to fetch it, and present it. It could be a change to the data in a second picker control, list or grid. In a winform app you don't have the postback effect. And the operative word you've used here is hide. Winforms are perhaps easier in that you wouldn't have to do any trickery due to the native object-data binding that takes place. Others may well comment better than me who've done more web work. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Stephen Russell wrote: Changing 50,000 desktop apps across 15 countries? What if your change was in 2 new GUIs and 15 biz rules? Your site will have to pound out new EXE delivery attempts. In an enterprise scenario (which if you know Stephen's world -- he's much more into the Enterprise world than the SMB world...thus he thinks on a much larger scale), web apps would probably be easier for the obvious examples you've sited. I suppose you could apply the same approach to the SMB level, but my point is that it's not that difficult when you're dealing with smaller sized clients and thus don't have thousands of client downloads to manage. Look at QuickBooks (the desktop app version) for example. It can be done if properly managed/written. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:14:23 -0500 (EST), MB Software Solutions General Account [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Look at QuickBooks (the desktop app version) for example. It can be done if properly managed/written. Look at Steam. http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ -- Alan Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:59:16 -0300, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Alan Bourke wrote: On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:15:08 +1030, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I understand how you feel. What is there about a webapp that you cant do better faster and easier in a desktop custom app? Vastly reduced deployment issues and reduced client requirements. Re..re..reduced haha client hahaha requirements LOL!!! Not unless YOU reduce them! As in the client PC will not need the same hardware requirements for a browser app as it might for a GUI app that is executing locally. Einstein. -- Alan Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ted Roche wrote: On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh! Wow! I wish we had XML in desktop apps! You've convinced me! Smartaleck! Are you intentionally missing the point or just avoiding it? Nah! Just taking the piss. Take it lightly. (no time right now, I'll read your post later (I mean carefully read it). ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Alan Bourke wrote: On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 22:59:16 -0300, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Alan Bourke wrote: On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:15:08 +1030, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I understand how you feel. What is there about a webapp that you cant do better faster and easier in a desktop custom app? Vastly reduced deployment issues and reduced client requirements. Re..re..reduced haha client hahaha requirements LOL!!! Not unless YOU reduce them! As in the client PC will not need the same hardware requirements for a browser app as it might for a GUI app that is executing locally. Einstein. LOL Lighten up! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 3:45 AM, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bottom line, I can't bring myself to learn that messy shit. ;-) I understand how you feel. What is there about a webapp that you cant do better faster and easier in a desktop custom app? As a database developer where forms are pre-designed and we know what to expect in advance I see a webapp as utterly pointless. Browsers are incredibly flexible - so use them for flexible applications. Databases are definately NOT flexible apps so don t use them in browsers. Seems obvious to me. --- What? a db is just a service that your application calls. It is data storage and some rules. A web app has the power of change. Quick change, across the world with very little impact on your infrastructure when you do. The ability to add another language allowing your app to open up another market is easy in a web environment. CSS to control the look of your site is fantastic. Making a change in that layout will save you from hitting every form in your winform system. AJAX for visual correction of a true C/S feel for your app. -- Stephen Russell Sr. Production Systems Programmer Mimeo.com Memphis TN 901.246-0159 ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On 11/4/08, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you have to learn XHTML, CSS, Javascript, how they integrate, plus some php (?). Add to that the lovely little traps Billy has set in IE. You can choose to learn nothing new. XHTML is fairly simple, and consistent. CSS is downright elegant, once you get your head around it. Javascript is quite a powerful language. There are some messy tricks sometimes, far less now than there were a while ago. But if you've hacked report writer DBFs or used the phantom records, you've done tricks equally intricate. Hmmm. Get Python and it runs on those three. And you only have to learn one language (and it is a pleasurable experience). Unless you want a UI. Then you need to learn wx. (Or Qt, or...) and then a report writer language. And the SQL/DDL for the database. There's always parts. VFP integrated in a DDL, low-level file functions, interface terminology, a merge (template) language and SQL _into_ VFP and claimed it was all one language. Was it one language or one product with several domain-specific languages integrated into it? It's an angels-on-a-pin argument for linguists, perhaps, but the point is that you're always integrating in different pieces that have to be handled their own way, whether that's Stonefield's Data Dictionary with CodeBook with Mac's PowerTools and Tim Rettig's utilities. Or XHTML, CSS and Javascript. Yes, a beautiful back end. And so user friendly. Especially when you have to interact with data. A lot of people seem to have no problem operating Amazon. But you'd better design your ui with cellphones in mind, or it will be a pain. Same thing with desktops. Separate structure from markup, just as you separate business objects from UI logic. New mobile devices supporting standards like XHTML-MP (Mobile Profile) and libraries to detect and render it abstract away a lot of the complexity of doing that. And more! It outputs a well-defined text format that can be indexed, sorted, cross-referenced and made to be part of a greater whole. You mean a grid? No, XML, a document, easily internationalized, recognized and validatable standard format. Entire documents can be downloaded, parsed, analyzed and categorized for content, keywords and, with the Semantic Web, meaning so that your site can advertise itself to search engines. There's room for many solutions to our many challenges. I know. I just dislike all the hassle and integration of disparate things you have to do with web apps. And desktop apps are different? You have to bring down and create the data structures (or ODBC to connect to a remote backend), bring down your supporting runtimes, ActiveX controls, register your apps and COM interfaces on the Registry, get a shortcut on the desktop and the Start Menu... If I need my app to reach far away places I can always do it with a desktop app and web services or a desktop app in a VPN depending on the requirements. So, now you're writing a web services app and a desktop app? And if you'd like all the world to run your app, you can make it available for download and provide the web service. And do you think that everyone on the Internet should download things they find up on the Internet and install them on their desktop machines? Most corporate desktops are locked to prevent just that. Given a choice between a lightweight web page and a 20-30 Mb download to install, which would you prefer? I give it to you that nowadays you'll have much better success with a WWW app with the general public. But I think business might eventually go the other way. Again, it depends on the application and your target market. Bottom line, I can't bring myself to learn that messy shit. ;-) That's an interesting perspective. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On 11/4/08, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in a business model deploying a well written database app isnt hard. in fact if well done it should be pretty easy. Geoff: What do you mean by in a business model? I had a client with 28,000 desktops. Deploying (through large-scale, scripted, well-tested mechanisms) is a big deal. Not as easy as a browser granted but its hardly a compelling advantage. As a database developer where forms are pre-designed and we know what to expect in advance I see a webapp as utterly pointless. Don't your apps change? Need a new field? Get a new translation? Most of the clients I work with have ongoing, evolving business needs. In a lot of cases I'd agree - there's far too much 'hey let's make everything run in the browser!'. Databases are definately NOT flexible apps so don t use them in browsers. If databases are not flexible enough to run website, what do you expect them to use? Take, for example, the CNN web site. Or Slashdot. Or Amazon. Should they not be using a database? I kinda meant REAL databases not a dinky mysql setup with a handle of userid/password tables or a blog My WordPress install uses 12 tables with PKs and FKs. Is that Real? One of the photo-gallery apps uses 53. One of my world-class web apps uses on 27 tables, although some of the tables have millions of rows? What qualifies as REAL? -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:32:49 -0300, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: But you'd better design your ui with cellphones in mind, or it will be a pain. Same thing with desktops. Why? Forget about cellphones unless there is a specific requirement to support them. Same with IE6 and Firefox 1 IMO. -- Alan Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:15:08 +1030, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I understand how you feel. What is there about a webapp that you cant do better faster and easier in a desktop custom app? Vastly reduced deployment issues and reduced client requirements. As a database developer where forms are pre-designed and we know what to expect in advance I see a webapp as utterly pointless. In a lot of cases I'd agree - there's far too much 'hey let's make everything run in the browser!'. Databases are definately NOT flexible apps so don t use them in browsers. But most of the websites out there have databases behind them ... -- Alan Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ted Roche wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've always had problems with these kind of statements. Web apps are NOT OS independent, only the CLIENT part may be OS independent (though you have to be careful that you comply with FireFox, Safari, Opera and IE7 and etc., I fail to see what you've gained), A well-designed, standards-compliant XHTML/CSS/Javascript app will run on the spectrum of FireFox-Opera-Safari pretty much without tweaks. A few more to get it to work in IE7. Usually more kludges for IE6 and you're done. So you have to learn XHTML, CSS, Javascript, how they integrate, plus some php (?). Add to that the lovely little traps Billy has set in IE. And then it runs on Macs (there are LOTS of Macs these days) and Windows and Linux boxes. Hmmm. Get Python and it runs on those three. And you only have to learn one language (and it is a pleasurable experience). Everybody has the runtime (a browser) on their machine. Yes, a beautiful back end. And so user friendly. Especially when you have to interact with data. Nearly everyone can run javascript. Just as important as a couple hundred million PCs, it will run on a billion cellphones. But you'd better design your ui with cellphones in mind, or it will be a pain. Same thing with desktops. And more! It outputs a well-defined text format that can be indexed, sorted, cross-referenced and made to be part of a greater whole. You mean a grid? as for the SERVER part you must comply to Apache or some other server that runs under a specific OS and on top of it your language must be supported in this server. You know, I hate that all of these need ELECTRONS! I want to write computers that work with MUONS! LOL Ricardo, web apps have to run on something. It is a limitation of the distributed architecture of a client (application) - (web) server that you have more APIs that you have with a monolithic application. Apache runs on Windows, Linux, UNIX, Solaris and Mac OS X. Nearly all the unix-y OSes have many other choices of web server software that will run on all or nearly all of the unix-y OSes. IIS is Windows-only and often license-encumbered. So I'd rather stay with a desktop app written in a cross OS language. I wonder what language would that be. I hope it's Python. Though there are other pretty good choices. Perl and Ruby have nearly as many GUI toolkit bindings. It very much depends on the problem you're solving and the logistics your customers demand. A heads-down data entry app that needs fast keystroke responses, immediate connection to a database, and is targeted at a small audience (one office or one company or dedicated users who are willing to download it and install it) is still very reasonably a desktop app. An application you'd like all the world to run (by finding or getting sent a link to it) that can offer the customer some immediate benefit is more likely a World-Wide-Web app. There's room for many solutions to our many challenges. I know. I just dislike all the hassle and integration of disparate things you have to do with web apps. If I need my app to reach far away places I can always do it with a desktop app and web services or a desktop app in a VPN depending on the requirements. And if you'd like all the world to run your app, you can make it available for download and provide the web service. I give it to you that nowadays you'll have much better success with a WWW app with the general public. But I think business might eventually go the other way. Bottom line, I can't bring myself to learn that messy shit. ;-) ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Bottom line, I can't bring myself to learn that messy shit. ;-) I understand how you feel. What is there about a webapp that you cant do better faster and easier in a desktop custom app? As a database developer where forms are pre-designed and we know what to expect in advance I see a webapp as utterly pointless. Browsers are incredibly flexible - so use them for flexible applications. Databases are definately NOT flexible apps so don t use them in browsers. Seems obvious to me. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Stephen Russell wrote: What? a db is just a service that your application calls. It is data storage and some rules. Some folks would prefer the rules in a business object instead of the database. Me, I prefer a little of both. The rules in the data side are to force instant field validation of values. However, I should say that since I've switched over to using MySQL on the backend about 4 years ago, I've not had rules in the db, but instead had the BizObj take care of the validations. No problems with that approach so far for me. A web app has the power of change. Quick change, across the world with very little impact on your infrastructure when you do. The ability to add another language allowing your app to open up another market is easy in a web environment. That's a valid point. It's definitely an easier deployment since you just update the common page that everyone is using. Of course, hopefully you're pilot went well so you just didn't wreak havoc on all of your installations causing you to seek ledges on tall buildings. ;-) CSS to control the look of your site is fantastic. Making a change in that layout will save you from hitting every form in your winform system. Well, if you've subclassed your controls properly, winforms are just as easy to control the look. No advantage there. AJAX for visual correction of a true C/S feel for your app. Ok, but the winform app does this easily if done right, imo, so no magic required. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
At 08:34 PM 4/11/2008, you wrote: On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:15:08 +1030, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I understand how you feel. What is there about a webapp that you cant do better faster and easier in a desktop custom app? Vastly reduced deployment issues and reduced client requirements. in a business model deploying a well written database app isnt hard. in fact if well done it should be pretty easy. Not as easy as a browser granted but its hardly a compelling advantage. As a database developer where forms are pre-designed and we know what to expect in advance I see a webapp as utterly pointless. In a lot of cases I'd agree - there's far too much 'hey let's make everything run in the browser!'. Databases are definately NOT flexible apps so don t use them in browsers. But most of the websites out there have databases behind them ... I kinda meant REAL databases not a dinky mysql setup with a handle of userid/password tables or a blog -- Alan Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Alan Bourke wrote: On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:15:08 +1030, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I understand how you feel. What is there about a webapp that you cant do better faster and easier in a desktop custom app? Vastly reduced deployment issues and reduced client requirements. Re..re..reduced haha client hahaha requirements LOL!!! Not unless YOU reduce them! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Stephen Russell wrote: On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 3:45 AM, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bottom line, I can't bring myself to learn that messy shit. ;-) I understand how you feel. What is there about a webapp that you cant do better faster and easier in a desktop custom app? As a database developer where forms are pre-designed and we know what to expect in advance I see a webapp as utterly pointless. Browsers are incredibly flexible - so use them for flexible applications. Databases are definately NOT flexible apps so don t use them in browsers. Seems obvious to me. --- What? a db is just a service that your application calls. It is data storage and some rules. A web app has the power of change. Quick change, across the world with very little impact on your infrastructure when you do. The ability to add another language allowing your app to open up another market is easy in a web environment. As opposed to difficult in a desktop app? C'mon! CSS to control the look of your site is fantastic. Making a change in that layout will save you from hitting every form in your winform system. You mean as in using classes and inheritance or composition? ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ted Roche wrote: On 11/4/08, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you have to learn XHTML, CSS, Javascript, how they integrate, plus some php (?). Add to that the lovely little traps Billy has set in IE. You can choose to learn nothing new. At least nothing new that I dislike. Hmmm. Get Python and it runs on those three. And you only have to learn one language (and it is a pleasurable experience). Unless you want a UI. Then you need to learn wx. (Or Qt, or...) and then a report writer language. And the SQL/DDL for the database. There's always parts. Well, you left out the math module and the os module and the file module and the i/o module and the curses module and .. But hey, what's left for the language then? About 12 reserved words? VFP integrated in a DDL, low-level file functions, interface terminology, a merge (template) language and SQL _into_ VFP and claimed it was all one language. Was it one language or one product with several domain-specific languages integrated into it? It's an angels-on-a-pin argument for linguists, perhaps, but the point is that you're always integrating in different pieces that have to be handled their own way, whether that's Stonefield's Data Dictionary with CodeBook with Mac's PowerTools and Tim Rettig's utilities. But the point is you could deploy applications WITHOUT them if you choose to. I'd rather keep that choice. No, XML, a document, easily internationalized, recognized and validatable standard format. Entire documents can be downloaded, parsed, analyzed and categorized for content, keywords and, with the Semantic Web, meaning so that your site can advertise itself to search engines. Oh! Wow! I wish we had XML in desktop apps! You've convinced me! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ted Roche wrote: On 11/4/08, geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in a business model deploying a well written database app isnt hard. in fact if well done it should be pretty easy. Geoff: What do you mean by in a business model? I had a client with 28,000 desktops. Deploying (through large-scale, scripted, well-tested mechanisms) is a big deal. Well, you are trading downloading the whole app in one go, or downloading it a window at a time. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Nov 4, 2008, at 8:14 PM, Ricardo Araoz wrote: I had a client with 28,000 desktops. Deploying (through large-scale, scripted, well-tested mechanisms) is a big deal. Well, you are trading downloading the whole app in one go, or downloading it a window at a time. This is the issue that I addressed when making Dabo able to be served just as a web app is served. It is not a solid .exe single file, but a series of text files, either Python scripts, XML files or image files. You can update a single UI file on the server, and the next time that file is used at the client, the latest is sucked down from the server to the client, just like a browser hitting a website. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ed Leafe wrote: On Nov 4, 2008, at 8:14 PM, Ricardo Araoz wrote: I had a client with 28,000 desktops. Deploying (through large-scale, scripted, well-tested mechanisms) is a big deal. Well, you are trading downloading the whole app in one go, or downloading it a window at a time. This is the issue that I addressed when making Dabo able to be served just as a web app is served. It is not a solid .exe single file, but a series of text files, either Python scripts, XML files or image files. You can update a single UI file on the server, and the next time that file is used at the client, the latest is sucked down from the server to the client, just like a browser hitting a website. Excellent...just like the Loader utility idea discussed on here many times. ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Nov 4, 2008, at 8:34 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote: Excellent...just like the Loader utility idea discussed on here many times. Not really. Loader checked if the exe had changed, and downloaded the whole thing. Dabo can detect individual files, and update them locally in the middle of running the app. -- Ed Leafe ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
Ed Leafe wrote: On Nov 4, 2008, at 8:34 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote: Excellent...just like the Loader utility idea discussed on here many times. Not really. Loader checked if the exe had changed, and downloaded the whole thing. Dabo can detect individual files, and update them locally in the middle of running the app. But the concept of updating what needs to be updated is what I was referring to. Stephen Settimi (sp?) had an article back in Foxpro Advisor back in 1999 (or sometime around there) where he did something like this with the VFP parts. He built his core EXE with basically just the Main.prg, and everything else was excluded. He then used a Loader type of approach pretty much checking all the various files that were needed for the rest of the solution, and downloaded what was newer or missing. Same idea, but 10 years ago with the VFP parts. Right? ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] OS dependency (was : Microsoft reveals features of Windows 7)
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Ricardo Araoz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've always had problems with these kind of statements. Web apps are NOT OS independent, only the CLIENT part may be OS independent (though you have to be careful that you comply with FireFox, Safari, Opera and IE7 and etc., I fail to see what you've gained), A well-designed, standards-compliant XHTML/CSS/Javascript app will run on the spectrum of FireFox-Opera-Safari pretty much without tweaks. A few more to get it to work in IE7. Usually more kludges for IE6 and you're done. And then it runs on Macs (there are LOTS of Macs these days) and Windows and Linux boxes. Everybody has the runtime (a browser) on their machine. Nearly everyone can run javascript. Just as important as a couple hundred million PCs, it will run on a billion cellphones. And more! It outputs a well-defined text format that can be indexed, sorted, cross-referenced and made to be part of a greater whole. as for the SERVER part you must comply to Apache or some other server that runs under a specific OS and on top of it your language must be supported in this server. You know, I hate that all of these need ELECTRONS! I want to write computers that work with MUONS! Ricardo, web apps have to run on something. It is a limitation of the distributed architecture of a client (application) - (web) server that you have more APIs that you have with a monolithic application. Apache runs on Windows, Linux, UNIX, Solaris and Mac OS X. Nearly all the unix-y OSes have many other choices of web server software that will run on all or nearly all of the unix-y OSes. IIS is Windows-only and often license-encumbered. So I'd rather stay with a desktop app written in a cross OS language. I wonder what language would that be. I hope it's Python. Though there are other pretty good choices. Perl and Ruby have nearly as many GUI toolkit bindings. It very much depends on the problem you're solving and the logistics your customers demand. A heads-down data entry app that needs fast keystroke responses, immediate connection to a database, and is targeted at a small audience (one office or one company or dedicated users who are willing to download it and install it) is still very reasonably a desktop app. An application you'd like all the world to run (by finding or getting sent a link to it) that can offer the customer some immediate benefit is more likely a World-Wide-Web app. There's room for many solutions to our many challenges. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
