Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder
Rene: your wish comes too late. No, I've been wishing this for years ;-) I have not checked the EU rules lately, but IIRC they have some exemptions for industrial, medical, and military equipment. Since our products are used in these areas, I think we fall into this category. If anyone has links to the latest lead-free rules, please post them. Any discussion is meaningless? Who does the EU think they are, rulers of the world? That's our (U.S.'s) divine right ;-) But seriously, unless someone can show a formula and process that has good long-term solder joint reliability (as good or better than Pb), there is going to be serious trouble with lead-free. Imagine the implications of early solder joint failure of lead-free electronic equipment: 1) Expensive automobiles having to be scrapped prematurely because their ECMs quit working, and all the junkyard car ECMs don't work either, due to the same failure of solder joints 2) Costly equipment failures in telecom and industrial equipment. Medical equipment failures resulting in possible patient injury or death, and the inevitable lawsuits. 3) Disillusionment of the public when their consumer goods fail soon after the warranty period expires Cheap goods (MP3 players, clock radios, etc.) won't be subject to the same expectation of quality as more expensive goods. You can bet the consumer will be outraged when their $5000 plasma TV stops working after 1 year. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Rene Tschaggelar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder Ivan, your wish comes too late. The EU is going to require leadfree pcb's from 2005 onwards. As far as I know no more leaded pcb may be sold after 2007. While I have some understanding for your position, any discussion is meaningless. My favourite assembler already produces leadfree, and I have a few rolls of leaded tin to be used up. Rene -- Ing.Buro R.Tschaggelar http://www.ibrtses.com Your newsgroups @ http://www.talkto.net * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] footprint clearance checking
Sorry, I have not yet made the move to DXP. Keep in mind that my library components do not have keep-outs defined for any footprints. I've designed them so that Protel's clearance constraint rule ends up using the slik-screen traces as it's guide. So far, in my setup, P99se seems to ignore the component's name #, unless they are on another layer other than the silkscreen. A good method to use this technique to your advantage would be to make a second clearance rule related to silkscreen traces without modifying the current 20 mil default, making sure it deals only with the footprint's keepout layer. Be sure your U shaped component just has no keepout defined you should be able to get stuff inside the 'U'. To really squeeze things in, try the smd stuff in my library. _ Brian Guralnick - Original Message - From: Brad Velander To: 'Protel EDA Forum' Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] footprint clearance checking Brian, In 2004 or more recent DXP versions, did Altium ever fix the fact that the clearance check includes all reference designators and other attributes within the footprint boundary check? Such that if you had a long attribute string it made the footprint clearance check impossible. Sincerely, Brad Velander PCB Designer Xantrex Technology Inc. (direct) (604) 415-4054 (general) (604) 422-8595 ext. 4054 (fax) (604) 422-1591 -Original Message- From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: August 10, 2004 10:50 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] footprint clearance checking Design it like all of the components in my publicly available library, where the silkscreen defines the outer inner edges of where the component surfaces meet the PCB. Shrink the component-component clearance to 1 mil, or 0 mil. This will allow you place, for example, some caps resistors right up to under some areas of a large PCB mounted RCA jack, but, it will not allow you to place components too close where the silk screen area may touch each other. Note that my library was intentionally designed like this for creating hand-held electronic devices where mounting area may be super constrictive. _ Brian Guralnick * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder
Most of the major Japanese manufactures have been lead free for over 3 or 4 years, I guess there reliability is so good as you haven't even noticed the difference ;-) I have looked into this over here (in the UK) and it seems Sony are one of the world leaders, they have patents all over there technology/ materials/ processes and are not going to share it with any one :-( Regards, Peter Smith -Original Message- From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 August 2004 21:35 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder Rene: your wish comes too late. No, I've been wishing this for years ;-) I have not checked the EU rules lately, but IIRC they have some exemptions for industrial, medical, and military equipment. Since our products are used in these areas, I think we fall into this category. If anyone has links to the latest lead-free rules, please post them. Any discussion is meaningless? Who does the EU think they are, rulers of the world? That's our (U.S.'s) divine right ;-) But seriously, unless someone can show a formula and process that has good long-term solder joint reliability (as good or better than Pb), there is going to be serious trouble with lead-free. Imagine the implications of early solder joint failure of lead-free electronic equipment: 1) Expensive automobiles having to be scrapped prematurely because their ECMs quit working, and all the junkyard car ECMs don't work either, due to the same failure of solder joints 2) Costly equipment failures in telecom and industrial equipment. Medical equipment failures resulting in possible patient injury or death, and the inevitable lawsuits. 3) Disillusionment of the public when their consumer goods fail soon after the warranty period expires Cheap goods (MP3 players, clock radios, etc.) won't be subject to the same expectation of quality as more expensive goods. You can bet the consumer will be outraged when their $5000 plasma TV stops working after 1 year. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ??
A XP SP2 beta tester, got at the weekend. -Original Message- From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 August 2004 17:22 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ?? Excuse me for asking the obvious: I just checked and Billy Gates hasn't put SP2 for XP up in the automatic updates section of the Miscrosoft Website Hence the question Where is everyone getting SP2 for Windows XP? - Original Message - From: John A. Ross [Design] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ?? -Original Message- From: Ian Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 August 2004 16:29 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ?? Dear all, I am seeing Protel 99SE hanging with scanning documents when opening a ddb file after having installed XP SP2. Will investigate further, but SP2 looks a prime candidate to have caused the problem. Ian http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/sp2mempr. mspx http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=windowsxpsp2 Also a reply on the DXP forum from Altium snip Yes, we have tested DXP with XP SP2 and also XP 64-bit version. These OS's display some problems, but only if you have a 64 bit machine. The problems specifically are to do with scripts and VHDL simulation. These problems should be resolved for the SP2 release. Regards David Wang, Altium snip You can experience some problems if you're running DXP on Athlon64 machine with Windows XP SP2 installed. We intend to fix these issues in SP2, till then there is an easy workaround: Right click on My Computer and select Properties. The System Properties dialog opens. Switch to Advanced tab and click Perfomance Settings. Perfomance Options dialog comes up and the last tab on that dialog is named Data Execution Prevention (DEP). There you can use Add button and add DXP.EXE to the list of programs that are not affected by DEP. That should fix it. Best wishes, Sergey Kostinsky Altium snip All good fun ;-) John * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder
[Big snip] 1) Expensive automobiles having to be scrapped prematurely because their ECMs quit working, and all the junkyard car ECMs don't work either, due to the same failure of solder joints I think cars are exempt. 2) Costly equipment failures in telecom and industrial equipment. Medical equipment failures resulting in possible patient injury or death, and the inevitable lawsuits. Medical equipment is exempt. Industrial monitoring and control instruments are exempt. 3) Disillusionment of the public when their consumer goods fail soon after the warranty period expires his for years ;-) I think this was the early lead free stuff that used bismuth. Most big Japanese manufacturers have been lead free for a year or two now. My Panasonic TV is lead free (actually RoHS, reduction of hazardous substances) and is over two years old. Got a feeling all electronic equipment sold in Japan must be lead free already. You are all confusing a two things RoHS and WEEE (Waste from Electrical and Electronic Equipment). Useful sites are: http://www.envirowise.gov.uk/ http://www.dti.gov.uk/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder
Most of the major Japanese manufactures have been lead free for over 3 or 4 years, I guess there reliability is so good as you haven't even noticed the difference ;-) You're right, I haven't noticed the difference in a measly 3-4 years. I also haven't bought much consumer gear in the past 3-4 years. I expect my purchases to last a loong time. I still have (and use regularly) stereo equipment from the early 80's. Yes, I said stereo. That's 2.0 channel sound, to all you multi-channel N.1 freaks. If you look hard enough, you can still find audio systems with fewer than 3 speakers ;-) Now that you mention it, I'll have a look inside my Sony VCR that I bought about 5 years ago. The tuner and IR receiver went flaky on it about 2 years ago. The mechanism is still good. Maybe it was their first lead free experiment. I've never had another VCR that failed in that way, the others have been mechanical problems or just plain wear out. I like Sony VCRs (VHS, not Beta) because they are easy to setup and program. But it seems they've given me a reason not to buy anymore. And I won't use their Memory Stick, ATRAC(?) sound compression, or any devices that incorporate them. I have looked into this over here (in the UK) and it seems Sony are one of the world leaders, they have patents all over there technology/ materials/ processes and are not going to share it with any one :-( Patents - that sounds like the real reason for switching to lead free. Force everyone to license your patents, and rake in the cash. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com - Original Message - From: Peter Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Protel EDA Forum' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:26 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder Most of the major Japanese manufactures have been lead free for over 3 or 4 years, I guess there reliability is so good as you haven't even noticed the difference ;-) I have looked into this over here (in the UK) and it seems Sony are one of the world leaders, they have patents all over there technology/ materials/ processes and are not going to share it with any one :-( Regards, Peter Smith * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ??
That's odd, the beta of XP SP2 just ended the final has been released: Download as 1 big 266mb install file, great for installing on multiple PCs from burned CD. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=049C9DBE-3B8E-4F30-8245-9E368D3CDB5Adisplaylang=en If you want to RE-install XP from scratch, directly to SP2, here is how to make a bootable install CD: http://www.winbeta.org/forums/index.php?act=STf=7t=5640 Good Luck. _ Brian Guralnick - Original Message - From: Ian Middleton To: Protel EDA Forum Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ?? A XP SP2 beta tester, got at the weekend. -Original Message- From: Joe Sapienza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 August 2004 17:22 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ?? Excuse me for asking the obvious: I just checked and Billy Gates hasn't put SP2 for XP up in the automatic updates section of the Miscrosoft Website Hence the question Where is everyone getting SP2 for Windows XP? - Original Message - From: John A. Ross [Design] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Protel EDA Forum [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ?? -Original Message- From: Ian Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 August 2004 16:29 To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: [PEDA] XP SP2 stop Protel 99SE working ?? Dear all, I am seeing Protel 99SE hanging with scanning documents when opening a ddb file after having installed XP SP2. Will investigate further, but SP2 looks a prime candidate to have caused the problem. Ian http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/sp2mempr. mspx http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=windowsxpsp2 Also a reply on the DXP forum from Altium snip Yes, we have tested DXP with XP SP2 and also XP 64-bit version. These OS's display some problems, but only if you have a 64 bit machine. The problems specifically are to do with scripts and VHDL simulation. These problems should be resolved for the SP2 release. Regards David Wang, Altium snip You can experience some problems if you're running DXP on Athlon64 machine with Windows XP SP2 installed. We intend to fix these issues in SP2, till then there is an easy workaround: Right click on My Computer and select Properties. The System Properties dialog opens. Switch to Advanced tab and click Perfomance Settings. Perfomance Options dialog comes up and the last tab on that dialog is named Data Execution Prevention (DEP). There you can use Add button and add DXP.EXE to the list of programs that are not affected by DEP. That should fix it. Best wishes, Sergey Kostinsky Altium snip All good fun ;-) John * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder
Patents - that sounds like the real reason for switching to lead free. Force everyone to license your patents, and rake in the cash. Amen! Sounds like the PCB cleaning solvent issue. MFGRs basically stopped using Iso-Alcohol for washing boards, because it was not EPA approved. But you can use this chemical from Du... chemical company that IS EPA approved (wow how 'd that one slip in). Rick Notice: This message and any included attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy the original message and any copies or printouts hereof. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder
|Now that you mention it, I'll have a look inside my Sony VCR that I bought |about 5 years ago. The tuner and IR receiver went flaky on it about 2 years |ago. The mechanism is still good. Maybe it was their first lead free |experiment. I've never had another VCR that failed in that way, the others |have been mechanical problems or just plain wear out. LOL, things failing after 3 years, how typical of Sony after 1989, I'd be suprised if better than 66% of their stuff brand new would fully functions properly today. I dont think it's a Pb free issue here, it's just Sony... My Sony SLV-757 still works like the day I bough it. Back in 1988. It still makes the best VHS recordings has the best sound compared to anything I can get today. Only the latest perfect-tape players have a better playback picture, however, they are crap when it comes to sound playback record and picture record, especially when it comes to CATV tuner sources. _ Brian Guralnick - Original Message - From: Bagotronix Tech Support To: Protel EDA Forum Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:21 PM Subject: Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder Most of the major Japanese manufactures have been lead free for over 3 or 4 years, I guess there reliability is so good as you haven't even noticed the difference ;-) You're right, I haven't noticed the difference in a measly 3-4 years. I also haven't bought much consumer gear in the past 3-4 years. I expect my purchases to last a loong time. I still have (and use regularly) stereo equipment from the early 80's. Yes, I said stereo. That's 2.0 channel sound, to all you multi-channel N.1 freaks. If you look hard enough, you can still find audio systems with fewer than 3 speakers ;-) Now that you mention it, I'll have a look inside my Sony VCR that I bought about 5 years ago. The tuner and IR receiver went flaky on it about 2 years ago. The mechanism is still good. Maybe it was their first lead free experiment. I've never had another VCR that failed in that way, the others have been mechanical problems or just plain wear out. I like Sony VCRs (VHS, not Beta) because they are easy to setup and program. But it seems they've given me a reason not to buy anymore. And I won't use their Memory Stick, ATRAC(?) sound compression, or any devices that incorporate them. I have looked into this over here (in the UK) and it seems Sony are one of the world leaders, they have patents all over there technology/ materials/ processes and are not going to share it with any one :-( Patents - that sounds like the real reason for switching to lead free. Force everyone to license your patents, and rake in the cash. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] footprint clearance checking
On 01:10 PM 11/08/2004, Dom Bragge said: I have a connector that could be viewed as a large U when placed on the board. If I want to place other components within this U shape (not overlapping the physical connector but within the bounding box) what choices do I have: - permanently enjoying the 20+ clearance errors? (not preferred) - turning off clearance checking? (not preferred) - turning off clearance checking for that one connector whilst in that position (how?)? Dom, Have you got the component clearance check set to Full Check - Full Check does not just use the bounding box for DRC. In P2004 SP1 the Full Check mode now works with on-line DRC, not only batch DRC. Users asked for this capability not long before SP1 was released and it made it in which is nice. I assume you don't have any primitives outside the real boundary of the component, as this will stuff up Full Checks ability to slot components in corners. I regularly put 0603 and 0402 components in the corner of SOT-223 (next to the larger tab) - Full check mode works fine in this case. If you are trying to deliberately overlap components (their primitives overlap) there is a technique that is often discussed on the DXP forum: http://forums.altium.com/cgi-bin/showthread.asp?id=32063list=dxp is a link to the recent discussion - the link is not complete as there is a problem with archiving some emails. I have been asking Altium about this issue for some time now - it does tend to devalue the archive if you can't trust that all posts are archived. The missing follow-up was that the IsComponent part of the rule is not needed as only components can be in a component class. Also, the missing follow-up discussed using rooms (possibly polygonal) and component height rule(s) to control the height of components under the stood off components. Ian Wilson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder
I guess I now know why my ProScan TV is having audio problems. I found several bad solder joints when I the company that I purchased this TV from wanted $190 to fix the problem. Just took off the back of the TV and looked closely with a magnifying glass and did not like what I saw. Re-soldered a couple of joints (10-15) and now everything is OK. -Original Message- From: Ian Middleton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:35 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] tests for Pb in solder [Big snip] 1) Expensive automobiles having to be scrapped prematurely because their ECMs quit working, and all the junkyard car ECMs don't work either, due to the same failure of solder joints I think cars are exempt. 2) Costly equipment failures in telecom and industrial equipment. Medical equipment failures resulting in possible patient injury or death, and the inevitable lawsuits. Medical equipment is exempt. Industrial monitoring and control instruments are exempt. 3) Disillusionment of the public when their consumer goods fail soon after the warranty period expires his for years ;-) I think this was the early lead free stuff that used bismuth. Most big Japanese manufacturers have been lead free for a year or two now. My Panasonic TV is lead free (actually RoHS, reduction of hazardous substances) and is over two years old. Got a feeling all electronic equipment sold in Japan must be lead free already. You are all confusing a two things RoHS and WEEE (Waste from Electrical and Electronic Equipment). Useful sites are: http://www.envirowise.gov.uk/ http://www.dti.gov.uk/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
