Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** One caution about naming names: You are pretty safe if you testify accurately to facts instead of drawing sweeping conclusions. While most CAD companies would not want to get involved in a suit against users, to be safe one might not post "PADS is a piece of junk," it might be fairly hard to defend. On the other hand, if you were to state, "I found PADS very difficult to learn and cumbersome," your statement is simply reporting your experience, which might be unique to you and which might not. Further, if your motive is clearly to help CAD users instead of to defame the CAD company, it would be additional insurance. The former could be protected as free speech and only actionable if it was recklessly careless, whereas the latter could be actionable even if the facts were accurate. If you think that a CAD system cannot do something, saying "I could not find a way to " is more accurate and safer. If you asked a user group and none of them knew a way either, then report *that* instead of the possible conclusion: "There is no way to " [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax Easthampton, Massachusetts USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** At 11:05 PM 10/5/01 +1000, Ian Wilson wrote: I would like to encourage you to name names. Anyone else want to man the rack while I attend to the thumb screws? :-) >Seriously, I see the capabilities of competitive packages very relevant to >this Protel forum. Does anyone else agree that we should name names? The narrow view of this list, with which I do not agree, is that it is exclusively for support issues, i.e., how do I do this? or is this a bug, and is there a workaround? A wider view is that it reflects a full user group, which has, in addition to user support, the encouragement of Protel toward improving the product, and any other matter that would be of interest to users, including social functions. Because serving all of these functions can increase the list traffic such that many users feel impelled to unsubscribe, there has been some movement toward making the Forum a pure support list and moving other traffic elsewhere; the original side-list was Techserv's developer's list, then the yahoogroups lists were started, and then Techserv started the Open Forum, duplicating [EMAIL PROTECTED] However, unless and until we have a system which by default subscribes all new subscribers to a major set of all the lists (some lists exist for special purposes such as archives where general subscription would *not* be appropriate), thus allowing members to *unsubscribe* from what they don't want while still keeping what they want, it is important that this list (Techserv Forum) be somewhat open. Techserv, in the past, has not agreed, but *usually* leaves the list alone It is my view that discussing the capabilities of competing CAD systems *is* appropriate, for two reasons. The first is because some subscribers are, as in this case, trial users considering Protel purchase, and the second is that the capabilities of competing systems can point the way to Protel improvements. Few of us would consider leaving Protel entirely even if the magic CAD system that did everything efficiently, for a low price, suddenly appeared, unless the price was *so* low that we simply could not risk doing otherwise. It is highly unlikely that such a system is, in addition, going to be easy enough to learn that we could readily afford to make the change; after all, our investment in training dwarfs the cost of the software (True with Protel, not necessarily true with your very expensive packages, where those costs can be comparable.) Now, I know of only one moderately priced (i.e., comparable to Protel) CAD system that processes and thoroughly checks negative planes, and it is CAMCAD. We have previously described how CAMCAD does this, it is not a simple task (I think the CAMCAD approach is essentially to run a flood router on the plane). In the long run, such checking is essential; negative plane checking is a major hole in our DRC. There may be others. $400 per year is not CAMCAD, I don't think; that cost level is perhaps one-third to one-half of Protel's cost in the long run. It is low enough that I might buy a license just to play with it. There are also other factors in choosing a CAD system, including the availability of design services using the system or of trained designers available to work with it, as well as available support. Until the cost gets really large, usually the other factors outweigh the cost, for professional use. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax Easthampton, Massachusetts USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** Ian and Doug, I'll be the first to second that motion, heh heh. Come clean with that name! This is a free group, not owned by Protel and you can post what you want here. I encourage you to tell all that's great and not vs. Protel or other packages. Gossip, Gossip, Gossip :) I think most here would agree that this sort of discussion will promote all of our goals. I totally agree with Ian that this is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be pulled apart out in the open. -Frank Frank Gilley Dell-Star Technologies (918) 838-1973 Phone (918) 838-8814 Fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dellstar.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** On 01:34 AM 10/5/2001 -1100, Douglas McDonald wrote: >Perhaps I ought to balance my own reply by telling you that the software has >definitely got faults. In the hour I was there, I saw it throw a GPF under W98; its >got a dongle (which we all loathe) and there's plenty missing from it - schematics >are multi-sheet only (no hierarchy) etc etc. > >I didn't mean to sound like an ad, I probably just had my rose-tinted specs on and I >don't think it's appropriate to post data about competetitive packages here except to >stimulate development of our beloved tool (blushes). Protel should be aware that >people are not always going to accept the limitations of software tools and >increasing prices to boot. > >If you still want to know, mail me direct ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and I'll >find out the URL for you. Product naming has a long standing tradition here. Every one of the major players in the field has had their name posted to the group on nearly a weekly basis for the last several years. Advertising a product is one thing, but informational posts with direct correlation to a short-coming of the topic product (aka Protel EDA) is entirely within scope. Doug, I personally think it would be quite beneficial to the group to post the product name/mfg here, as it would validate those claims to the Protel/Altium lurker staff, thereby applying more than implicative pressure on the company. You know how it is with unsubstantiated allegations, whether against a concern or in favor of another...They're unsubstantiated and therefore can easily be dismissed by those in the management track as nothing more than blather. Evidence is worth its weight in gold. aj * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** > -Original Message- > From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 6:06 AM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug > ...clip > I would like to encourage you to name names. Anyone else want to man the > rack while I attend to the thumb screws? :-) > Seriously, I see the capabilities of competitive packages very > relevant to > this Protel forum. Does anyone else agree that we should name names? Yes, I agree we should name names. It would allow us to offer constructive criticism to Protel regarding the pros and cons of their software and how they might take a look at other offerings. It's always good to know your enemy. :) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** On 01:34 AM 5/10/2001 -1100, Douglas McDonald said: >Ian > >Perhaps I ought to balance my own reply by telling you that the software >has definitely got faults. In the hour I was there, I saw it throw a GPF >under W98; its got a dongle (which we all loathe) and there's plenty >missing from it - schematics are multi-sheet only (no hierarchy) etc etc. > >I didn't mean to sound like an ad, I probably just had my rose-tinted >specs on and I don't think it's appropriate to post data about >competetitive packages here except to stimulate development of our beloved >tool (blushes). Protel should be aware that people are not always going to >accept the limitations of software tools and increasing prices to boot. > >If you still want to know, mail me direct ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) >and I'll find out the URL for you. > > >Doug Doug, If it was me I would name away, but I respect your reasons not to name names. My opinion is, I think competitive pressure is a great way of getting the marketing bods thinking about what we want. Especially if as a group we make rational assessments of the pros and cons and name features that we would like. They will only know what we like about competitive packages if we discuss it openly here. I would like to encourage you to name names. Anyone else want to man the rack while I attend to the thumb screws? :-) Seriously, I see the capabilities of competitive packages very relevant to this Protel forum. Does anyone else agree that we should name names? I assume that Protel run copies of quite a few competitors software. If not they should. Ian Wilson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** Ian Perhaps I ought to balance my own reply by telling you that the software has definitely got faults. In the hour I was there, I saw it throw a GPF under W98; its got a dongle (which we all loathe) and there's plenty missing from it - schematics are multi-sheet only (no hierarchy) etc etc. I didn't mean to sound like an ad, I probably just had my rose-tinted specs on and I don't think it's appropriate to post data about competetitive packages here except to stimulate development of our beloved tool (blushes). Protel should be aware that people are not always going to accept the limitations of software tools and increasing prices to boot. If you still want to know, mail me direct ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and I'll find out the URL for you. Doug >So ... give us the name, please. > >I am interested in looking into this package. And if it is doing full >plane DRC then Protel have no excuse for the semi-drc we get. > >Ian Wilson > _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** On 10:46 PM 4/10/2001 -1100, Douglas McDonald said: ><..Snip..> >It also fully supports padstacks so he's got octagonal pads on the top and >bottom and round in the middle. [Somewhat off subject] he can control via >tenting top and bottom separately on a via by via basis - something that >was discussed here recently. But the shocker seems to be the price tag >(sub US $400 per year). > >I'm going to open that large bottle of scotch and try not dilute it with >too many tears. > > >Doug So ... give us the name, please. I am interested in looking into this package. And if it is doing full plane DRC then Protel have no excuse for the semi-drc we get. Ian Wilson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** I've talked my colleague about what can and can't be done with RS-274X - he seems to be a minor expert on the subject. You are quite correct in saying that the primitive for the thermal has four spokes and apparaently this can't be easily changed, but as you say macros can be devised. Unfortunately, the arc method produces quirky looking results when there is a large relief and I'm told that to overcome this would require a moderately complex "super-macro" for each pad with multiple (overlapping) arcs drawn for each segment. Multiple groups of such arcs could then be extended as necessary (not just 90 degrees ie 4 arcs) to provide any number of "thermal arms" so to speak. Quite a lot for a single ground plane connection! He seems to believe that he needs to control the thermal reliefs carefully for several applications - high frequency RF and power supplies to name but two. I spent an hour with him and I think that the following would be a decent spec: The software that he uses gives exactly the control that Mr Lomax is talking about and then some. He can manually override any thermal relief with any number of thermal arms, at any angle, of any width. On an individual pad basis, he can extend the width of the thermal gap. The software seems to use the same method of plane generation that Protel uses for regular power planes - that is to say a negative image as opposed to polygon fill but most impressively, he can put a (polygonal) plane onto _any_ layer not just a designated plane layer ie. there seems to be no distinction between regular and plane layers. This makes split planes trivial and he seems to use these as if they are going out of fashion. Planes are visible on screen and when (regular) tracks pass through the plane, they dynamically cut a gap (what PADS used to call trace ploughing). He can blowout sections of plane using various "cutting" tools and it detects when pads are isolated by the blowouts (although not dynamically) - in fact all DRC seems to be batch based. It also fully supports padstacks so he's got octagonal pads on the top and bottom and round in the middle. [Somewhat off subject] he can control via tenting top and bottom separately on a via by via basis - something that was discussed here recently. But the shocker seems to be the price tag (sub US $400 per year). I'm going to open that large bottle of scotch and try not dilute it with too many tears. Doug >At 11:39 AM 10/4/01 +1000, Geoff Harland wrote: >>What I was saying previously was that the RS274X standard does not support >>"flashing" thermal relief patterns having just two openings. Given that >>situation, the associated arcs (of these patterns) should (normally) be >>"drawn" instead. > >RS-274X has a primitive called a "thermal," yes, and it has four spokes by >nature. But RS-274X was designed to be *very* flexible, so basically *any* >shape can be defined as an aperture macro. > >When Protel allowed differing numbers of spokes (many programs don't), it >is rather obvious that no one ever told the people writing the photoplot >routines. This has been broken, I suspect, for a long time. > >Ultimately, I think we should go to defined padstacks, the existing Protel >pad shapes are one of the major limitations of the program. I would >definitely use a chamfered rectangle (kind of like an "octagon" should be, >but not regular and not broken) if Protel supported it. I used the Tango >"rounded rectangle" all the time. (that's a rectangle with rounded >corners). > >Yes, padstacks are complicated but if the program automatically generated >padstacks to match the existing status quo, but then we could lift the hood >and edit and modify or add to those padstacks, we'd have our cake and full >stomachs as well, to mix a few metaphors. > >So the photoplot routines could simply define a macro where the existing >basic RS274X shapes won't work, and then flash the macro code. Easy peasy, >best of both worlds: a drawn shape but compact plot files. > >(As an aside, such creatures would make back-conversion from Gerber easier, >because they would define a connection to the plane just as a thermal >presently defines such a connection. Drawn thermals are harder to recognise >automatically.) > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Abdulrahman Lomax >Easthampton, Massachusetts USA > _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://w
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** At 11:39 AM 10/4/01 +1000, Geoff Harland wrote: >What I was saying previously was that the RS274X standard does not support >"flashing" thermal relief patterns having just two openings. Given that >situation, the associated arcs (of these patterns) should (normally) be >"drawn" instead. RS-274X has a primitive called a "thermal," yes, and it has four spokes by nature. But RS-274X was designed to be *very* flexible, so basically *any* shape can be defined as an aperture macro. When Protel allowed differing numbers of spokes (many programs don't), it is rather obvious that no one ever told the people writing the photoplot routines. This has been broken, I suspect, for a long time. Ultimately, I think we should go to defined padstacks, the existing Protel pad shapes are one of the major limitations of the program. I would definitely use a chamfered rectangle (kind of like an "octagon" should be, but not regular and not broken) if Protel supported it. I used the Tango "rounded rectangle" all the time. (that's a rectangle with rounded corners). Yes, padstacks are complicated but if the program automatically generated padstacks to match the existing status quo, but then we could lift the hood and edit and modify or add to those padstacks, we'd have our cake and full stomachs as well, to mix a few metaphors. So the photoplot routines could simply define a macro where the existing basic RS274X shapes won't work, and then flash the macro code. Easy peasy, best of both worlds: a drawn shape but compact plot files. (As an aside, such creatures would make back-conversion from Gerber easier, because they would define a connection to the plane just as a thermal presently defines such a connection. Drawn thermals are harder to recognise automatically.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax Easthampton, Massachusetts USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** Mark, Is the URL below you what you are looking for? http://www.barco.com/ets/data/rs274xc.pdf Regards, Ben Uytenhaak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gatsometer BV P.O. Box 4959 2003EZ Haarlem The Netherlands phone : +31 23 5255050 fax : +31 23 5276961 -Original Message- From: Mark E Witherite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Protel EDA Forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: donderdag 4 oktober 2001 17:48 Subject: Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug >Thanks Mike and Geoff, > for your time in explaining , verifying and giving a work around >for my problem. I'll have to hit the books to see how to use the RS274D >format. I wasn't able to find the "RS274XrevD_e.pdf " file. I'll try >again this week end . >Thanks again You Guys are great. >Mark * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** > > It's definitely NOT an RS-274X limitation and I can say that with 100% > > certainty. I have a colleague who uses a cheap CAD tool which allows the > > thermal reliefs to be controlled minutely on plane layers and it > > produces (274X) gerbers with no problems at all. > > > > Douglas McDonald > > Geoff, > I am not sure I buy into your explanation either. I will disqualify > myself by admitting I have little to no programming experience and > even less knowledge of Aperature generation, but I bet it can be > fixed. And if it can be fixed then it must be broke. > > Mike Reagan I think that this is a bug in Protel, and that this *can*, and *should*, be fixed; the way to do that is for thermal relief patterns having just two openings to be *"drawn"* (rather than "flashed") within Gerber files (and regardless of whether thermal relief patterns having four openings are "drawn" or "flashed" in these files). (If the PCB designer was prepared to provide an aperture list file and RS274D format Gerber files, perhaps those patterns could be "flashed" instead in those circumstances, but the onus would then be on the PCB manufacturer (and the PCB designer (to the extent of specifically bringing such apertures to the PCB manufacturer's attention)) to ensure that the PCB is still manufactured satisfactorily.) What I was saying previously was that the RS274X standard does not support "flashing" thermal relief patterns having just two openings. Given that situation, the associated arcs (of these patterns) should (normally) be "drawn" instead. I have yet to have cause to design any PCB using such thermal relief patterns, but given my understanding of the situation, if I ever did have to design such a PCB, I would figure out some way of avoiding the problem (if necessary, generating RS274D format Gerber files, and then converting these to RS274X format using a Perl script). However, it definitely is a trap for those who are unaware of the situation, so I fully agree that this is a bug, and that it should be fixed. Regards, Geoff Harland. - E-Mail Disclaimer The Information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any opinions or advice contained in this e-mail are confidential and not for public display. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** Geoff, I am not sure I buy into your explanation either. I will disqualify myself by admitting I have little to no programming experience and even less knowledge of Aperature generation, but I bet it can be fixed. And if can be fixed then it must be broke. Mike Reagan EDSI > > It's definitely NOT an RS-274X limitation and I can say that with 100% > certainty. I have a colleague who uses a cheap CAD tool which allows the > thermal reliefs to be controlled minutely on plane layers and it produces > (274X) gerbers with no problems at all. > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** It's definitely NOT an RS-274X limitation and I can say that with 100% certainty. I have a colleague who uses a cheap CAD tool which allows the thermal reliefs to be controlled minutely on plane layers and it produces (274X) gerbers with no problems at all. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** Mark, I have been looking at your design all night and might have to concur with Mr. Lomax that it is full fledged bonafide bug.. After reviewing your design I could not find any overlapping or conflicting design rules, so the work you did looks fairly clean.I stripped your design to down to some basic rules and removed redundant planes so that there would no chance of confusing the program . I then made the entire board with 2 connection thermals and the gerber output was still 4 connections. That proved to be even stranger because I know for a fact that I have used 2 connection thermals on certain connectors, until I looked at my old gerbers I had sent to the board house and low and behold.they are also 4 point. Heck I have never generated a 2 point thermal when I thought I was.Good one Mark you found a bug Regards, Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** > > I'm designing a PCB that has multiple ground planes. To make it > > easier to assemble and rework I made the thermo relief with only 2 > > entries. No problem Protel will let you set them in PCB editor > > RIGHT??? I'm now viewing the board house generated Gerber and guess what > > " All plane connections have 4 entries. When back to PCB editor and > > imported my protel generated gerbers and they all have 4 entries. Then > > checked my original design in the PCB editor, it still has only 2 entries. > > > > Have I done something wrong? > > If not, how do I generate gerbers to look like the PCB in the PCB editor? > > > > Mark Witherite > > No, you have done something right. You have identified another bug, I just > verified it. I have not explored the boundaries of this bug, but I set a > pad-scope rule for 2 thermals when the board-scope rule was 4 thermals. > Display of the ground plane was correct, the special pad showed 2 thermals > and all others showed 4. However, in the gerber, all connected pads had 4 > thermals. > > In other words, the gerber generation routine is broken here. A moderately > harmless bug unless you really need differing thermal connections on a > board, in which case it is downright irritating. > > (Once again, the rarity of this explains why we have been staring at this > program for a long time and had not yet found this bug.) > > Abdulrahman Lomax This situation can be regarded as a shortcoming of the RS274X standard, in that Aperture Macros of a Thermal (Relief) type provide no means of defining how many sections (entries) this type of pattern has. As such, one "correct" way to have a PCB manufactured with the appropriate number of entries (for all thermal relief shapes) is to create Gerber files *without* embedded aperture definitions (i.e. RS274D format rather than RX274X format). The PCB manufacturer will then need to be provided with not just the Gerber files, but *also* an aperture definition list file. (When the RS274D option is selected, an aperture definition file is generated for *each* Gerber file. However, all of those (aperture definition) files have the same contents, so it is only necessary to retain and send one of those (aperture definition) files, which should have its extension changed to .APT.) In Protel 98, it was possible to select whether Thermal Relief patterns were "flashed" or "drawn"; with the former option, apertures having Thermal Relief patterns are used; with the latter option, the arcs of each thermal relief pattern are "drawn" using an aperture of round shape. As such, *if* Protel 98 is being used, RS274X format Gerber files *can* be created, but the "Generate Relief Shapes" checkbox within the "Apertures" dialog box needs to be put in an *unchecked* state. (Note that because these patterns are now being "drawn" rather than "flashed", the Gerber files (for the Power Plane layers) will be larger than would otherwise be the case.) In Protel 99 SE, the "Apertures" tab of the "Gerber Setup" dialog box (invoked from the "CAM Manager" server) does incorporate a "Generate Relief Shapes" checkbox, but this checkbox is *only* enabled when the "Embedded apertures (RS274X)" checkbox (on the same tab and same dialog box) is *not* checked. If you are generating RS274D format (Gerber) files (no embedded aperture definitions (within the Gerber files)), it is not necessary to deselect the "Generate Relief Shapes" checkbox, as you would then need to provide the PCB manufacturer with an aperture definition file, and that would specify that some of the Thermal Relief apertures have just two entries rather than four. (Having said that, it could still be preferable to still deselect that Checkbox, as it would reduce the probability of the PCB manufacturer "stuffing up" your PCB by not using thermal relief patterns with the correct numbers of entries. The Gerber files (for the Power Plane layers) will be larger, but better that than receiving mis-manufactured PCBs.) However, the ability to create RS274X format Gerber files (with embedded aperture definitions) in which thermal relief patterns are "drawn" rather than "flashed" does seem to have been lost in Protel 99 SE (unless someone can verify that the state of the "Generate Relief Shapes" checkbox is acted upon even when this is disabled), and this is definitely a shortcoming in cases where the PCB designer wants thermal relief patterns that have just two entries (rather than four). Altium please note!!! If you know what you are doing, it is still possible to create Gerber files *with* embedded apertures; most PCB manufacturers will thank you if you do that (as that saves them from having to define the details from the contents of the aperture definition file). You could crea
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** At 01:05 PM 10/2/01 -0500, Mark E Witherite wrote: >When back to PCB editor and imported my protel generated gerbers and they >all have 4 entries. Then checked my original design in the PCB editor, it >still has only 2 entries. > >Have I done something wrong? No, you have done something right. You have identified another bug, I just verified it. I have not explored the boundaries of this bug, but I set a pad-scope rule for 2 thermals when the board-scope rule was 4 thermals. Display of the ground plane was correct, the special pad showed 2 thermals and all others showed 4. However, in the gerber, all connected pads had 4 thermals. In other words, the gerber generation routine is broken here. A moderately harmless bug unless you really need differing thermal connections on a board, in which case it is downright irritating. (Once again, the rarity of this explains why we have been staring at this program for a long time and had not yet found this bug.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax Easthampton, Massachusetts USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** At 01:05 PM 10/2/01 -0500, Mark E Witherite wrote: >I'm now viewing the board house generated Gerber and guess what " All >plane connections have 4 entries. When back to PCB editor and imported >my protel generated gerbers and they all have 4 entries. Then checked my >original design in the PCB editor, it still has only 2 entries. I'm a tad confused about this. In another post Mr. Witherite made it clear that he imported gerber to Protel in addition to viewing it in CAMtastic. Now, we might scold him for letting the board house generate Gerber. Naughty, naughty! :-) Be that as it may, I don't see clearly that he generated gerber himself and it was incorrect. The fab house could easily have altered this setting, perhaps trying to "improve" things one more reason not to let them generate gerber! (They may alter gerber to deal with etching problems, etc., but this cannot be avoided and will not generally result in real changes in topology; they remain responsible for providing finished widths similar to what is in the gerber you provide them) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax Easthampton, Massachusetts USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** At 01:59 PM 10/2/01 -0500, Mark E Witherite wrote: >Hi Tony and group, > I'm using Camtastic to view the gerbers. I just imported them > into Protel to see if the out come would be different. Of course, it would not be different. In addition, if you generate gerber from imported gerber, the design rule settings for thermals will be irrelevant, since you will be plotting free primitives on the inner planes, not calculated shapes as in normal gerber generation. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax Easthampton, Massachusetts USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** Mark, Send me a file in 99 format, I will be glad to look at it. I prefer the entire ddb file zipped Mike Reagan [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -Original Message- > From: Mark E Witherite [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 3:00 PM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug > > > Hi Tony and group, > I'm using Camtastic to view the gerbers. I just imported them > into Protel to see if the out come would be different. This PCB was > suppose to have a mix of both 2 and 4 entries which was dependent on the > net. I understand we all have dead lines to meet but if anyone has some > free time could you check this out and see if it happens to you? > Thanks > Mark > > At 10:15 AM 10/2/01 -0700, you wrote: > >...or maybe it's another Protel bug :) > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Mark E Witherite [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:05 AM > > > To: Protel EDA Forum > > > Subject: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug > > > > > > > > > Hi Group, > > > I'm designing a PCB that has multiple ground planes. > To make it > > > easier to assemble and rework I made the thermo relief with only 2 > > > entries. No problem Protel will let you set them in PCB editor > > > RIGHT??? I'm now viewing the board house generated Gerber and > > > guess what > > > " All plane connections have 4 entries. When back to PCB editor and > > > imported my protel generated gerbers and they all have 4 > entries. Then > > > checked my original design in the PCB editor, it still has > only 2 entries. > > > > > Mark Witherite > Assistant Research Engineer > Astronomy & Astrophysics > Penn State University > 2565 Park Center Blvd > Suite 200 > State College, PA. 16801 > email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > telephone 814 865 9839 > fax 814 865 9100 > IPC PWB Certified > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** Mark, I concur with Tony's response. Compare the files you sent them, then look at the files they provided you. Generally board houses will not change thermals unless your gerber files do not meet their minimal manufacturing guidelines. To prevent changes to your Gerbers, I would include a Fab note that prevents the board house from adding, changing, or modifying the artwork without prior written approval. We only use this note when designing very high speed boards and the gerbers are "build to print" and may not to be adjusted by the fabricator to match manufacturing tolerances. Otherwise all designs are adjusted by the board house. Regards Mike Reagan EDSI Frederick MD > -Original Message- > From: Mark E Witherite [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 2:05 PM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug > > > Hi Group, > I'm designing a PCB that has multiple ground planes. To make it > easier to assemble and rework I made the thermo relief with only 2 > entries. No problem Protel will let you set them in PCB editor > RIGHT??? I'm now viewing the board house generated Gerber and > guess what > " All plane connections have 4 entries. When back to PCB editor and > imported my protel generated gerbers and they all have 4 entries. Then > checked my original design in the PCB editor, it still has only 2 entries. > > Have I done something wrong? > If not, how do I generate gerbers to look like the PCB in the PCB editor? > TIA > Mark > Mark Witherite > Assistant Research Engineer > Astronomy & Astrophysics > Penn State University > 2565 Park Center Blvd > Suite 200 > State College, PA. 16801 > email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > telephone 814 865 9839 > fax 814 865 9100 > IPC PWB Certified > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** ...or maybe it's another Protel bug :) > -Original Message- > From: Mark E Witherite [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:05 AM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug > > > Hi Group, > I'm designing a PCB that has multiple ground planes. To make it > easier to assemble and rework I made the thermo relief with only 2 > entries. No problem Protel will let you set them in PCB editor > RIGHT??? I'm now viewing the board house generated Gerber and > guess what > " All plane connections have 4 entries. When back to PCB editor and > imported my protel generated gerbers and they all have 4 entries. Then > checked my original design in the PCB editor, it still has only 2 entries. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug
*** Todays forums are sponsored by Ian Martin Limited Engineering/Technical Placement Specialists www.ianmartin.com *** Why did your board house generate gerbers? How are you viewing their gerber files? Have you tried reading your gerber files with Camtastic or some other reader? Maybe your board house's tools substituted something... Tony > -Original Message- > From: Mark E Witherite [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:05 AM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: [PEDA] Possible Gerber generation bug > > > Hi Group, > I'm designing a PCB that has multiple ground planes. To make it > easier to assemble and rework I made the thermo relief with only 2 > entries. No problem Protel will let you set them in PCB editor > RIGHT??? I'm now viewing the board house generated Gerber and > guess what > " All plane connections have 4 entries. When back to PCB editor and > imported my protel generated gerbers and they all have 4 entries. Then > checked my original design in the PCB editor, it still has only 2 entries. > > Have I done something wrong? > If not, how do I generate gerbers to look like the PCB in the PCB editor? > TIA > Mark > Mark Witherite > Assistant Research Engineer > Astronomy & Astrophysics > Penn State University > 2565 Park Center Blvd > Suite 200 > State College, PA. 16801 > email [EMAIL PROTECTED] > telephone 814 865 9839 > fax 814 865 9100 > IPC PWB Certified > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
