Maybe it’s also not horrible to bet on one of the winners for once. Discord
seems poised for success as its original gamer demographic grows up with
it, while Gitter and Zulip already look like also-rans. (Though from
another vantage point things may well look different — what’s it look like
from
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 4:54 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
> 2. I can handle Discord just fine nowadays but *please* don't combine this
> with the Python Discord server. That server is super active with learners
> and teachers, and has hundreds of channels and it's just really hard to
> ignore that
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:50:23PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Wait, is there already a vote somewhere?
Not yet. I will create one in discuss.python.org
I had summarized our discussion and shared what would be the questions
and voting options here.
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 2:41 PM Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 01:54:23PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > 2. I can handle Discord just fine nowadays but *please* don't combine
> this with
> > the Python Discord server.
>
> This was expressed by other core-devs as well.
>
>
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 01:54:23PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> 2. I can handle Discord just fine nowadays but *please* don't combine this
> with
> the Python Discord server.
This was expressed by other core-devs as well.
> 8. I would want a purely *social* chat that is *closed* to
1. I feel biased towards Zulip because it's open source, it's Python, and I
know the people who made it, and I don't want their creation to die. But
the UI is a little more complicated than needed (the "topic" feature in
particular) if we're just going to do this as a single social channel.
2. I
Thanks, Senthil. This poll format well summarizes the options presented in
the discussion. :)
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 1:55 PM Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> > Hello Core Dev,
> > I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in
> > some quick effervescent
Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> Hello Core Dev,
> I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in
> some quick effervescent conversations.
...
> Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and
> options are
...
> If you think that chatting is not a good idea,
On Tue, 18 May 2021 at 15:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
>
> Le 18/05/2021 à 15:36, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
> > Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> >>> I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are
> >> not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?
> >
> > I
Le 18/05/2021 à 15:36, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are
not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?
I don't understand this question, and lost the context too if it was
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 09:16:33AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
> As a data point for where newer language communities have ended up, Rust is on
> Discord and Zulip.
I hopped in to study their usage for last 3 days. I wanted to find out
how open source communities are actively using Zulip.
* Zulip
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 06:01:36PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> I see a general interest in *having* some sort of community chat, but
> no real plan on how to get a critical mass of people on a chat system.
So, I see you recognize the general interest too. Next step will
figuring out what to do,
Eric V. Smith wrote:
> If the intent of this new core-dev chat is just a social "how are you
> doing" sort of thing, then I think Zulip (or most anything else) would
> work fine.
What would be _social_ for python-dev? :) I assume it will mostly be around
technical topics.
The social nature
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are
> not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system?
I don't understand this question, and lost the context too if it was addressed
to me.
The fact is, Zulip simply isn't used
On 18May2021 0306, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
+1 agreed. Discord wins out in terms of features and **being where
people are already at** in terms of modern IRC with replacement with
bonus audio and video features for use when desired. I rarely bother to
hang out on freenode IRC anymore out of
On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 6:44 PM Kyle Stanley wrote:
>
> FWIW, I would love to add a core dev Discord server to my long-ish list of
>> Discord servers. It's a chat platform I find convenient (much more so than
>> Zulip and Slack, and slightly more so than IRC), very organised, with good
>>
> FWIW, I would love to add a core dev Discord server to my long-ish list of
> Discord servers. It's a chat platform I find convenient (much more so than
> Zulip and Slack, and slightly more so than IRC), very organised, with good
> moderation tools (better than Slack and IRC), and widely adopted.
On Mon, 17 May 2021 at 11:32, Thomas Wouters wrote:
> There's also the social dimension that is simply not present in email -- for
> good reason. There are many messages I have not sent simply because it's
> email, so it's more effort and carries much more weight.
Agreed. An example of
On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 12:00 PM Victor Stinner wrote:
> Did you notice that you are already chatting by email? Chatting about
> other chat platforms :-) Why not just accepting that emails won? :-)
>
I have several communities that *only* communicate through Discord, never
email. On the
On 5/14/21 12:28 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few
> other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)
>
> The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I
> don't feel annoyed by them. But
Did you notice that you are already chatting by email? Chatting about
other chat platforms :-) Why not just accepting that emails won? :-)
When discuss.python.org was launched, a few discussions moved there,
and slowly, moved back to python-dev list.
Emails will never die! :-D
Victor
On 5/15/2021 1:01 PM, Paul Moore wrote:
Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that
basically no-one uses it.
So let's start by working out *why* it failed.
I never tried it because it was introduced about the same time as
'discuss', and it was enough for me to learn
Le 15/05/2021 à 19:01, Paul Moore a écrit :
So let's start by working out *why* it failed. I don't see any point
in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people
like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If
we were to ask the question, why did
On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 16:58, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> > I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument.
>
> Really? I don't see that way. So far, I see that few others find
> settling upon chat solution will be useful for core-dev too.
I see a general interest in *having* some sort
As a data point for where newer language communities have ended up, Rust is
on Discord and Zulip.
On Fri., May 14, 2021, 19:14 Dong-hee Na, wrote:
> Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC
> culture.
> And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the
On 5/15/2021 11:57 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a
very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations,
is widely used, and is open source),
Le 15/05/2021 à 17:57, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a
very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations,
is widely used, and is open
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 05:17:03PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
> Le 15/05/2021 à 17:11, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
> >
> > So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective.
> > But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication
> > tools, I think that we
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a
> very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations,
> is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ».
-
Le 15/05/2021 à 17:11, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective.
But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication
tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people
not use after some period.
What
Paul Moore wrote:
> In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd prefer it
> to be a little more "social". We have plenty of "work-related" communication
> channels, but IMO we don't really have anywhere that's the online equivalent
> of the workplace "hanging out around
> If you're not familiar with
> Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well.
> Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way.
> Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues /
> acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects
Le 15/05/2021 à 16:37, Dong-hee Na a écrit :
> You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip
I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project
based on Python.
But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only
technology side but also on how people
> You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip
I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project
based on Python.
But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only
technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX.
I don't want to evaluate
Le 15/05/2021 à 13:23, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote:
So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good
tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the
> * Does it have a good web-client experience
MS teams look like provide the web client.
> In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd
> prefer it to be a little more "social".
I agree that we need to be more social. I share my personal news with
Victor and it would be
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote:
> So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good
tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of
this conversation.
Thanks!
On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 03:14, Dong-hee Na wrote:
>
> Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC culture.
> And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s.
> That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
>
> So I'm also a supporter of new
On 5/14/21 3:28 AM, Victor Stinner wrote:
> I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few
> other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)
I've tried the IRC channel -- way too much noise. Talking to bots is not my
idea of a python dev chat.
My impression
Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC
culture.
And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s.
That period coincides with the growth of GitHub.
So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools.
Here the list below is my consideration.
a)
On Sat, 15 May 2021, 6:35 am Paul Moore, wrote:
> On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 21:18, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
>
> > > In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people
> > > problem.
> >
> > Both. I didn't suggest this is technology problem. We, have to
> > choose one as per majority
On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 21:18, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 08:53:13PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> > The problem with this, I think, is that my choice would be
> >
> > * Whichever one people actually used
>
> That's self-referencing, and unsolvable.
It is, but it's true
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 08:53:13PM +0100, Paul Moore wrote:
> The problem with this, I think, is that my choice would be
>
> * Whichever one people actually used
That's self-referencing, and unsolvable.
> In other words, this isn't a technology problem, it's a people
> problem.
Both. I didn't
On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 19:51, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
> > You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear
> > winner.
>
> Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess
> the
Le 14/05/2021 à 21:40, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:21:14PM +0200, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to run a matrix.org server which then
connects and bridges across all those channels ?
https://matrix.org/bridges/
People could then continue to
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:21:14PM +0200, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
> Wouldn't it make more sense to run a matrix.org server which then
> connects and bridges across all those channels ?
>
> https://matrix.org/bridges/
>
> People could then continue to use their preferred platform,
> without
On 14.05.2021 20:50, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
>> You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear
>> winner.
>
> Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess
> the choices I am
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 06:30:33PM +, Jason R. Coombs wrote:
> Would be delighted if there was a preferred platform for chat and that
> platform
> be documented (and allowed to change as solutions and the community evolves).
This resonates well with me. Especially as I use _ these chat
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:28:48AM -0700, Mariatta wrote:
> I hope we can properly evaluate how the next chosen chatting platform
> can be used more effectively.
I agree. The proposal is like choice of Github. We don't self-host, but
if identify something that will work for us (provided there is
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:07:12AM -0700, Brett Cannon wrote:
> You could launch a poll on discuss.python.org and see if there's a clear
> winner.
Yes, after hearing some opinions, I plan to do that. Right now, I guess
the choices I am thinking are
- No, I am not interested in Chat.
- Focus on
For CPython, I’ve been present on IRC and Zulip and Slack and Discord (and
would prefer them in the reverse of that order).
I’ve used Gitter for CherryPy and Setuptools and Xonsh, but found the interface
kinda meh compared to Slack and Discord.
Would be delighted if there was a preferred
I'm hesitant to start yet another communication channel without considering
all the maintenance work that it entails.
It's not just about "let's spin up the server" but we should think about
who will moderate and administer it.
Since we have tried various platforms in the past, and some just
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 6:48 AM Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > #python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015.
> > Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a
> chat
> > for CPython at
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 12:28:00PM +0200, Victor Stinner wrote:
>
> The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I
> don't feel annoyed by them. But GitHub review are hard to use: only
> the user name and the PR number are given: PR title and comment
> content are not
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:36:52AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> #python-dev on IRC has been wildly successful until perhaps 2015.
> Personally, I would have no problem using IRC if wanted to connect to a chat
> for CPython at all.
I know, it was useful, and #python is still. The bot, github,
Hi,
I'm always connected to IRC #python-dev (Freenode) for 10 years, a few
other core devs use it time to time. Come to say hello ;-)
The bugs.python.org and buildbot notifications are useful to me and I
don't feel annoyed by them. But GitHub review are hard to use: only
the user name and the PR
Le 14/05/2021 à 09:26, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:03:05AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Well, the more you create chat services for a single purpose, the less
you're likely to actually find a community there. Why do you want to use
Gitter if Zulip and IRC already
On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 09:03:05AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Well, the more you create chat services for a single purpose, the less
> you're likely to actually find a community there. Why do you want to use
> Gitter if Zulip and IRC already exist?
The goal is not the tool, but the community
Le 14/05/2021 à 02:25, Senthil Kumaran a écrit :
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 04:53:08PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
I’ve found Gitter works well. I’d use that, assuming it was only open to core
devs and invitees.
Thanks! I interpret this as
a) Yes to a need for chat-service for core-dev.
b)
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 05:17:33PM -0700, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
> We already have https://python.zulipchat.com/ setup. https://mail.python.org/
> pipermail/python-dev/2018-April/152826.html
Is it fair to say that it didn't take off as well as we intended?
Even discuss.python.org beat that
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 04:53:08PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> I’ve found Gitter works well. I’d use that, assuming it was only open to core
> devs and invitees.
Thanks! I interpret this as
a) Yes to a need for chat-service for core-dev.
b) Add Gitter to the list of options to consider
We already have https://python.zulipchat.com/ setup.
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2018-April/152826.html
I don't hang around there all the time, but I usually re-open a window
there around pycons and core dev sprints.
-gps
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 4:53 PM Guido van Rossum
I’ve found Gitter works well. I’d use that, assuming it was only open to
core devs and invitees.
On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 16:39 Senthil Kumaran wrote:
> Hello Core Dev,
>
> I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in
> some quick effervescent conversations.
>
> It is
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