Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article ,
Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
[... much good stuff deleted ... ]
> wish is a type A program, it creates an interpreter and therefore must
> link to the actual library. So is Tkinter. But Tkagg is not, it extends
> a preexisting interpreter.
Thanks, Christian. That's a good summary, I think. After some more
research, I agree with your conclusion that the stubs library approach
does not apply to the case of embedding Tcl ("type A") which is what
Python tkinter does. As far as matplotlib or PIL/Pillow or other
third-party packages that may extend Tck/Tk, it might be helpful to open
an issue with suggested code on the various projects' issue trackers if
someone cares to pursue this.
--
Ned Deily,
n...@acm.org
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
Am 04.10.14 07:53, schrieb Ned Deily: In article , Kevin Walzer wrote: A Tcl library compiled for 8.5 can be loaded into 8.6 with no re-compiling required because of stubs. It has nothing to do with Python per se; that's just the way linking with OS frameworks work. > [...] When Python or other programs link with a framework, they use the cc or ld -framework option, rather than -l: -framework Tcl -framework Tk That causes the linker to look in the default search paths for frameworks, /Library/Frameworks followed by /System/Library/Frameworks. The install names of the framework shared libraries used are embedded in the Mach-O file (executable, bundle, or shared library) produced by ld. So the stub library archive is there but is not used, AFAIK. Then it is done in a non-optimal way, though admittedly in the case of Tkinter, which is a hybrid Python/Tcl extension, the optimal way is not obvious. In the Tcl world, there are two different ways to link to Tcl (and analogously to Tk): A) you can link directly to libtcl.dylib (.so, .dll) B) you can define USE_TCL_STUBS during compilation and link to libtclstub.a If you embed an interpreter, you must do A. So for Tkinter, linking directly to the dynamic lib (== -framework in OSX) is correct. If you extend an interpreter by defining new commands, new Tcl_Obj, new Tk image types etc., you can do either A or B, but the recommended way is always B because this makes it possible to load an extension into any later interpreter than the one it was compiled against. The magic behind stubs are macros which replace function calls by invocations of an index into a function pointer table; that table is initialized at runtime, when the extension calls Tcl_InitStubs(). Now, tkagg is not loaded by the Tcl load() command. This means that after loading via Pythons import, the stub table should be initialized. Obviously this is not the case; if I'm not mistaken, just before this line https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/blob/master/src/_tkagg.cpp#L252 if you insert Tcl_InitStubs(interp, TCL_VERSION, 0); Tk_InitStubs(interp, TCL_VERSION, 0); then it should be possible to compile tkagg with -DUSE_TCL_STUBS -DUSE_TK_STUBS, link to tclstub and tkstub and load the resulting tkagg into any Tkinter that links to an interpreter at least as new as TCL_VERSION. (If the result of either call is NULL, the interpreter is too old). Admittedly I'm too lazy to setup a build environment for matplotlib to try if this actually works. There may be other ways to do it but that's how Python has always linked to Tcl and Tk. FWIW, that's how both Apple's and ActiveState's wish executables are linked as well: wish is a type A program, it creates an interpreter and therefore must link to the actual library. So is Tkinter. But Tkagg is not, it extends a preexisting interpreter. Christian -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article , Kevin Walzer wrote: > On 10/3/14, 3:55 PM, Ned Deily wrote: > > Even if there were no incompatibilities, on OS X with Tcl and Tk (and > > other) frameworks, the version number is embedded in the path to the > > shared library and the linker normally creates an absolute path at that. > > Is this because Python lacks the concept of stubs? > > A Tcl library compiled for 8.5 can be loaded into 8.6 with no > re-compiling required because of stubs. It has nothing to do with Python per se; that's just the way linking with OS frameworks work. Both Apple and ActiveState install their versions of Tcl and Tk as frameworks. What gets installed and what the OS X compilers and linkers expect is something like this: $ cd /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5 $ ls -l total 5720 drwxr-xr-x+ 3 root wheel 272 Nov 24 2013 Headers drwxr-xr-x+ 2 root wheel 340 Nov 24 2013 PrivateHeaders drwxr-xr-x+ 4 root wheel 272 Nov 24 2013 Resources -rw-r--r--+ 1 root wheel 2905000 Oct 27 2013 Tk -rw-r--r--+ 1 root wheel12240 Oct 27 2013 libtkstub8.5.a -rw-r--r--+ 1 root wheel 4622 Oct 27 2013 tkConfig.sh $ file Tk Tk: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures Tk (for architecture x86_64): Mach-O 64-bit dynamically linked shared library x86_64 Tk (for architecture i386): Mach-O dynamically linked shared library i386 $ file libtkstub8.5.a libtkstub8.5.a: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures libtkstub8.5.a (for architecture x86_64): current ar archive random library libtkstub8.5.a (for architecture i386): current ar archive random library $ otool -D Tk Tk: /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Tk When Python or other programs link with a framework, they use the cc or ld -framework option, rather than -l: -framework Tcl -framework Tk That causes the linker to look in the default search paths for frameworks, /Library/Frameworks followed by /System/Library/Frameworks. The install names of the framework shared libraries used are embedded in the Mach-O file (executable, bundle, or shared library) produced by ld. So the stub library archive is there but is not used, AFAIK. There may be other ways to do it but that's how Python has always linked to Tcl and Tk. FWIW, that's how both Apple's and ActiveState's wish executables are linked as well: $ more /usr/local/bin/wish8.5 #!/bin/sh "$(dirname $0)/../../../Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Resources/Wish. app/Contents/MacOS/Wish" "$@" $ otool -L /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Resources/Wish.app/Contents /MacOS/Wish /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Resources/Wish.app/Contents /MacOS/Wish: /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Tk (compatibility version 8.5.0, current version 8.5.15) /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.5/Tcl (compatibility version 8.5.0, current version 8.5.15) /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 125.2.0) /System/Library/Frameworks/Cocoa.framework/Versions/A/Cocoa (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 15.0.0) /System/Library/Frameworks/Carbon.framework/Versions/A/Carbon (compatibility version 2.0.0, current version 152.0.0) /System/Library/Frameworks/IOKit.framework/Versions/A/IOKit (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 275.0.0) /usr/lib/libgcc_s.1.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 625.0.0) There's more info about frameworks in various Apple developer docs and in the man pages for ld, otool, and install_name_tool. -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
On 10/3/14, 3:55 PM, Ned Deily wrote: Even if there were no incompatibilities, on OS X with Tcl and Tk (and other) frameworks, the version number is embedded in the path to the shared library and the linker normally creates an absolute path at that. Is this because Python lacks the concept of stubs? A Tcl library compiled for 8.5 can be loaded into 8.6 with no re-compiling required because of stubs. -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article , Christian Gollwitzer wrote: > Hmm, I'm not sure that the other projects would need an update. In Tcl > world, there is the concept of stub libraries, an extra level of > indirect linking provided by both the Tcl and Tk core. If the extensions > link to the stub library (the standard way), they can be loaded into any > later version of Tcl and do not directly depend on libtcl or libtk. If > the extensions link directly to libtcl, they are either broken or very > special (providing one's own interpreter, doing nasty stuff with > internals etc.) Even if there were no incompatibilities, on OS X with Tcl and Tk (and other) frameworks, the version number is embedded in the path to the shared library and the linker normally creates an absolute path at that. $ otool -L _tkagg.so _tkagg.so: /usr/lib/libstdc++.6.dylib (compatibility version 7.0.0, current version 60.0.0) /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 1197.1.1) /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.5/Tcl (compatibility version 8.5.0, current version 8.5.15) /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Tk (compatibility version 8.5.0, current version 8.5.15) -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
Am 03.10.14 00:08, schrieb Ned Deily: So, to really support Tk 8.6, the only viable option at the moment would be for us to ship our own versions of Tk, like the Windows installer does. But it wouldn't be acceptable, IMO, to force other projects and users to migrate to 8.6 in the middle of a release cycle, e.g. 3.4.x or 2.7.x. Providing it as an option, though, would be OK. Hmm, I'm not sure that the other projects would need an update. In Tcl world, there is the concept of stub libraries, an extra level of indirect linking provided by both the Tcl and Tk core. If the extensions link to the stub library (the standard way), they can be loaded into any later version of Tcl and do not directly depend on libtcl or libtk. If the extensions link directly to libtcl, they are either broken or very special (providing one's own interpreter, doing nasty stuff with internals etc.) Christian -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article , "Peter Tomcsanyi" wrote: > "Ned Deily" wrote in message > news:nad-40cb03.10344701102...@news.gmane.org... > > The python.org 3.4.x series of installers will likely never change from > > linking with Tk 8.5 by default. That would break a number of important > > third-party Python packages that supply binary distributions built for > > the python.org OS X pythons, like matplotlib. > I respect your decision. > But it surprises me because the Windows version of Python 3.4.1 already > comes with Tcl/Tk 8.6. Does it mean that there are no such problems with > matplotlib etc. in Windows? The main issue is that, unlike MS and Windows, Apple has long shipped versions of Tcl and Tk with OS X. As I understand it, Apple even helped sponsor the writing of the newer Cocoa-based Tk that would also work on 64-bit systems after they decided to not extend the older Carbon APIs to 64-bit, making the original OS X native Carbon-based Tk problematic on newer Macs and releases of OS X. When the Cocoa Tk was first shipped with OS X 10.6, Tk 8.6 hadn't been released yet so they went with a backport to 8.5 and, for whatever reasons, Apple has been very slow to upgrade their 8.5.x Tk since then and have not shipped a 8.6 version yet. That leaves us in a bit of a quandary for the python.org installers. Ideally, we'd just like to continue to depend on an Apple-supplied version but even the most recent releases of OS X ship with serious bugs. Fortunately, it's been possible and long been our practice to ship the python.org installers Pythons built in such a way that, at run time, they will automatically use a compatible third-party Tcl and Tk, if present, otherwise fall back to the system version. By far, the leading third-party distributor of Tcl/Tk is ActiveState and they are actively involved in the development and maintenance of Tcl and Tk. But, their releases are not open-source and have a license that, while generous, do not permit totally unrestricted usage. Thus it is problematic to depend totally on their releases. So, to really support Tk 8.6, the only viable option at the moment would be for us to ship our own versions of Tk, like the Windows installer does. But it wouldn't be acceptable, IMO, to force other projects and users to migrate to 8.6 in the middle of a release cycle, e.g. 3.4.x or 2.7.x. Providing it as an option, though, would be OK. > I think that one of the point when advertising Python is that it works > accross the platforms, so keeping one platform (mac) "behind" for months > seems to me going against the multiplatform promise of Python... I don't think we mean to imply that all of the third-party libraries that Python is able to use are the same across all platforms. It depends on the platform and the practices there. The fact is that Tk 8.5 is still the de facto standard for OS X 10.6+ and Tk 8.4 is the de facto standard for OS X 10.5 and earlier systems, because that's what Apple has shipped. And that's why matplotlib et al and we still ship binary installers for OS X with 8.5 support. Third-party open source packages distributors, like MacPorts or Anaconda, can more easily move to newer versions of things, like Tk 8.6, because they provide complete solutions for many applications and libraries: they have ports for matplotlib, numpy, pythonx.x, Tk, and all other dependencies. The python.org installers have a much more limited scope. -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
Thanks again for quick and informative reply. "Ned Deily" wrote in message news:nad-40cb03.10344701102...@news.gmane.org... The python.org 3.4.x series of installers will likely never change from linking with Tk 8.5 by default. That would break a number of important third-party Python packages that supply binary distributions built for the python.org OS X pythons, like matplotlib. I respect your decision. But it surprises me because the Windows version of Python 3.4.1 already comes with Tcl/Tk 8.6. Does it mean that there are no such problems with matplotlib etc. in Windows? I think that one of the point when advertising Python is that it works accross the platforms, so keeping one platform (mac) "behind" for months seems to me going against the multiplatform promise of Python... File an update request for the tcl and tk ports on the MacPorts tracker. The project is usually very responsive to such requests. https://trac.macports.org Thanks for the suggestion, I was considering asking them, but I did not know what is the best place/best way to do it. Note that ActiveState hasn't yet released their versions of 8.6.2. I know, I am waching their Web page, too. As Kevin Walzer points out, you *can* also build your own. I know. But *can* is quite subjective. Being a Windows-only user and programmer for a (too) long time, the idea that the end-user should compile something from sources is very unconfortable to me. So many things can go wrong it the process when working with toolchains that I am not familiar with. Sorry for the delay! You do not need to appologize, I understand that it is extra work and that you did not promise it for sure. Best regards Peter -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article , "Peter Tomcsanyi" wrote: > "Ned Deily" wrote in message > news:nad-d2ddcb.14070824062...@news.gmane.org... > It's October... > So I tried Python 3.4.2rc1 and it seems that it still links to Tk 8.5 on > Mac. > Does it mean that there is no plan to link to Tk 8.6 in Python 3.4.2 on Mac? > Or is there something that can override 8.5 to 8.6 as you wrote? The python.org 3.4.x series of installers will likely never change from linking with Tk 8.5 by default. That would break a number of important third-party Python packages that supply binary distributions built for the python.org OS X pythons, like matplotlib. For Python 3.5, we will have the opportunity to change that. > In the meantime I tried MacPorts. It has Tk 8.6.1 so rotating text work > well, but it has still a problem with semi-transparency as described here: > http://core.tcl.tk/tk/tktview?name=99b84e49ff > It has been fixed in Tk 8.6.2 that is already published for nearly a month, > but there seems to be no uypdate on macports yet... File an update request for the tcl and tk ports on the MacPorts tracker. The project is usually very responsive to such requests. https://trac.macports.org Note that ActiveState hasn't yet released their versions of 8.6.2. > So I am quite frustrated that I am not able to make my Python installation > on Mac do the same things (namely roatting text and use png files that have > semi-transparent pixels) both on Windows and Mac. As Kevin Walzer points out, you *can* also build your own. I still intend to provide a downloadable solution for 3.4.x and 2.7.x; I hope to get back to it shortly. Sorry for the delay! -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
On 10/1/14, 7:51 AM, Peter Tomcsanyi wrote: "Ned Deily" wrote in message news:nad-d2ddcb.14070824062...@news.gmane.org... The easiest option would be a downloadable package that would allow the default python.org 8.5-linked _tkinter to be overridden with an 8.6 version. There may be some news on that front in the near future. It's October... So I tried Python 3.4.2rc1 and it seems that it still links to Tk 8.5 on Mac. Does it mean that there is no plan to link to Tk 8.6 in Python 3.4.2 on Mac? Or is there something that can override 8.5 to 8.6 as you wrote? The solution here is to build Python and Tcl/Tk yourself, in the versions you want, and then things should work just fine. -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
"Ned Deily" wrote in message news:nad-d2ddcb.14070824062...@news.gmane.org... The easiest option would be a downloadable package that would allow the default python.org 8.5-linked _tkinter to be overridden with an 8.6 version. There may be some news on that front in the near future. It's October... So I tried Python 3.4.2rc1 and it seems that it still links to Tk 8.5 on Mac. Does it mean that there is no plan to link to Tk 8.6 in Python 3.4.2 on Mac? Or is there something that can override 8.5 to 8.6 as you wrote? In the meantime I tried MacPorts. It has Tk 8.6.1 so rotating text work well, but it has still a problem with semi-transparency as described here: http://core.tcl.tk/tk/tktview?name=99b84e49ff It has been fixed in Tk 8.6.2 that is already published for nearly a month, but there seems to be no uypdate on macports yet... So I am quite frustrated that I am not able to make my Python installation on Mac do the same things (namely roatting text and use png files that have semi-transparent pixels) both on Windows and Mac. Best regards Peter -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
"Christian Gollwitzer" wrote in message
news:loh45o$14g$1...@dont-email.me...
As I said, it doesn't have a special interface, you just load it and
that's it. So if you do a tk.eval("package require tkpng"), your
Tk.PhotoImage will magically recognize PNG.
I will try it on the Mac, but on Windows this does not work (with python.org
installation of Python), and I need to have the same environment on both Win
and Mac (at least).
On the Mac you can create an APP bundle which contains everything,
including extra dependencies.
Thanks for the hint, I may consider it, but maybe it is not applicable to my
project where the outcome should be in fact a few modules in Python and the
en-users (college students) should program in Python using IDLE and those
extra modules. So there is no "Main program" and there will be no
"application".
Is an APP budle applicable for such a situation?
Yes this was a long-deferred feature due to its inhomogeneous
implementation on the supported platforms. There were some extensions like
10 years ago to do it, but only in 8.6 (2012) it made it into the core Tk.
Thanks for many insights into Tk and your hints.
I will try some of them in next days and maybe later I will come with some
more questions.
Peter
--
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Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article ,
Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 26.06.14 14:37, schrieb Christian Gollwitzer:
> > Am 26.06.14 12:39, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi:
> >> "Christian Gollwitzer" wrote in message
> >> news:lofciv$nq6$1...@dont-email.me...
> >>> For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives
> >>> support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package.
> >>
> >> My first Google search for
> >> "tkpng" "python"
> >> gave no usable results. So I am not sure if and how can I use these Tk
> >> extensions from Python...
> >
> > On my Mac it came with the OS (I
> > think); you'll do Tk.eval("package require Img").
> Just checked back with my vanilla VM install of Snow Leopard (10.6),
> that the Img package is installed. So doing this package require Img in
> case you detect 8.5 should solve your PNG problem on the Mac (you can do
> "package require Tk" to get the version number). I haven't checked alpha
> channel, though. For the rotated text there is no good solution. Of
> course, pushing people to install 8.6 is better:)
Just a reminder that you should *not* depend on the Apple-supplied Tk
8.5 in OS X 10.6. That was the first release of Cocoa Tk and it has
proven to be almost unusable, at least with IDLE and some other
Tkinter-based apps. Install a newer Tcl/Tk 8.5.x, like from ActiveTcl,
and use a python that links with it, like from the python.org
installers. The ActiveTcl installer also installs "teacup" which allows
you to easily install additional Tcl packages.
--
Ned Deily,
n...@acm.org
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
Am 26.06.14 14:37, schrieb Christian Gollwitzer:
Am 26.06.14 12:39, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi:
"Christian Gollwitzer" wrote in message
news:lofciv$nq6$1...@dont-email.me...
For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives
support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package.
My first Google search for
"tkpng" "python"
gave no usable results. So I am not sure if and how can I use these Tk
extensions from Python...
On my Mac it came with the OS (I
think); you'll do Tk.eval("package require Img").
Just checked back with my vanilla VM install of Snow Leopard (10.6),
that the Img package is installed. So doing this package require Img in
case you detect 8.5 should solve your PNG problem on the Mac (you can do
"package require Tk" to get the version number). I haven't checked alpha
channel, though. For the rotated text there is no good solution. Of
course, pushing people to install 8.6 is better:)
Christian
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
Am 26.06.14 12:39, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi:
"Christian Gollwitzer" wrote in message
news:lofciv$nq6$1...@dont-email.me...
For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives
support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package.
My first Google search for
"tkpng" "python"
gave no usable results. So I am not sure if and how can I use these Tk
extensions from Python...
As I said, it doesn't have a special interface, you just load it and
that's it. So if you do a tk.eval("package require tkpng"), your
Tk.PhotoImage will magically recognize PNG. I don't know how widespread
the installation is, but compilation is easy. An alternative is the
widely available Img package, which adds support for many image formats
like gif, bmp, jpeg, tga, tiff etc. On my Mac it came with the OS (I
think); you'll do Tk.eval("package require Img"). Since there are no
additional commands, it'll just work from Python as well. An alternative
employed by Pythonistas is to load the image using PIL and create a Tk
PhotoImage via the ImageTk bridge.
And finally I want to show the picture(s) on a Tk-based Canvas on top of
each other with properly handled semi-transparency.
This has been in the canvas for a long time, if you managed to create an
image with an alpha channel.
In our project we want to use as little as possible additonal packages
because we expect that the end-users will use several platforms
(Windows, Mac, Linux) and installing any extra Python-related package on
non-Windows platform seems to be a nightmare, at least that is the
result of the past three months of experience.
I understand.
The need to go to the command line level for such a basic thing like
installing or uninstalling something seems to me like going 20 to 30
years back in history. We cannot expect that our end-users (especially
the Mac-based ones) will have that expertise even if they have enough
expertise to program in Python when it is finally correctly installed on
their computers.
On the Mac you can create an APP bundle which contains everything,
including extra dependencies. It is a folder with a special structure,
you put it into a DMG archive and it matches the expectation a Mac user
has of an "installer". Unfortunately these things are very
system-dependent, and it's a lot of work to provide deployment (do
program icons, setup file associations etc.)
For angled text it's right, I don't know, there used to be some hacks
before, it's probably not possible in a clean way.
I was actually negatively surprised by the lack of this very basic
feature (especially in a vector-graphics-based environment)
Yes this was a long-deferred feature due to its inhomogeneous
implementation on the supported platforms. There were some extensions
like 10 years ago to do it, but only in 8.6 (2012) it made it into the
core Tk.
Christian
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
"Christian Gollwitzer" wrote in message news:lofciv$nq6$1...@dont-email.me... For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package. My first Google search for "tkpng" "python" gave no usable results. So I am not sure if and how can I use these Tk extensions from Python... And finally I want to show the picture(s) on a Tk-based Canvas on top of each other with properly handled semi-transparency. In our project we want to use as little as possible additonal packages because we expect that the end-users will use several platforms (Windows, Mac, Linux) and installing any extra Python-related package on non-Windows platform seems to be a nightmare, at least that is the result of the past three months of experience. The need to go to the command line level for such a basic thing like installing or uninstalling something seems to me like going 20 to 30 years back in history. We cannot expect that our end-users (especially the Mac-based ones) will have that expertise even if they have enough expertise to program in Python when it is finally correctly installed on their computers. For angled text it's right, I don't know, there used to be some hacks before, it's probably not possible in a clean way. I was actually negatively surprised by the lack of this very basic feature (especially in a vector-graphics-based environment) when I started with Python+Tk a few months ago, so I was very glad to see it in 8.6 and I immediately started using it on Windows. But then I receved complaints from a Mac user that it just does not work... Peter -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
Am 25.06.14 21:26, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi: "Christian Gollwitzer" wrote in message news:lodruv$k45$1...@dont-email.me... may I ask which features of 8.6 you need in particular? I need two of them: - Angled text - PNG image support with alpha channel (even if it seems a bit limited, particularly I still did not find the way to programmatically set/read the alpha channel of one individual pixel of the image, but maybe it is just my inability and a question to another newsgroup). For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package. After loading these, Tk 8.5 will accept PNG as in 8.6. For angled text it's right, I don't know, there used to be some hacks before, it's probably not possible in a clean way. Glad to see, that you are pushing the adoption of 8.6 ;) (I'm a Tcl-guy) Christian -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
"Christian Gollwitzer" wrote in message news:lodruv$k45$1...@dont-email.me... Hi Peter, may I ask which features of 8.6 you need in particular? Hi Christian, I need two of them: - Angled text - PNG image support with alpha channel (even if it seems a bit limited, particularly I still did not find the way to programmatically set/read the alpha channel of one individual pixel of the image, but maybe it is just my inability and a question to another newsgroup). Peter -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
On 6/25/14, 1:49 AM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: I can also add, tcl or tk or tkinter (8.6) is on Windows quite buggy. In fact, simply*unusable*. How so? Please report bugs at http://core.tcl.tk/tcl/reportlist or http://core.tcl.tk/tk/reportlist, as needed. --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article , "Peter Tomcsanyi" wrote: > Many thanks for the quick reply. > I will try the MacPorts version, but I am quite Windows-based (I do the Mac > installation for somebody else), so I am not sure how to install all the > other packages that we use (NumPy, MatPlotLib, Pillow and maybe something > else that I do not recall at this moment...). Last time (for the python.org > version of Python) I needed to try out several approached from several sites > to succeed finally... MacPorts provides ports for all of those, generally under names like py34-matplotlib, py34-Pillow, etc. http://www.macports.org/ports.php > So I will impatiently expect the changes "on that front" and I will hope > that they will come till August 2014. Keep your fingers crossed. -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
Hi Peter, Am 24.06.14 20:11, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi: I use the Python 3.4.1 installer from https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-341/ The Windows installation comes with Tcl/Tk version 8.6 which has some new features (compared to 8.5) that are very important to me. may I ask which features of 8.6 you need in particular? I'm just curious, because I thought that Python mainly uses the Tk part, and there has not been much of a difference in Tk between 8.5 and 8.6. In contrast, the Tcl language itself got massively enhanced (stackless execution engine, coroutines, core OO system, ...) Christian -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
"Ned Deily" wrote in message news:nad-d2ddcb.14070824062...@news.gmane.org... Probably easier, though, is to install Python 3.4 from MacPorts which does provide its own version of Tcl/Tk 8.6.1, the Cocoa version by default or optionally an X11 version: # after installing the base MacPorts sudo port selfupdate sudo port install py34-tkinter +quartz /opt/local/bin/python3.4 The easiest option would be a downloadable package that would allow the default python.org 8.5-linked _tkinter to be overridden with an 8.6 version. There may be some news on that front in the near future. Many thanks for the quick reply. I will try the MacPorts version, but I am quite Windows-based (I do the Mac installation for somebody else), so I am not sure how to install all the other packages that we use (NumPy, MatPlotLib, Pillow and maybe something else that I do not recall at this moment...). Last time (for the python.org version of Python) I needed to try out several approached from several sites to succeed finally... So I will impatiently expect the changes "on that front" and I will hope that they will come till August 2014. Peter Tomcsanyi -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article , > Maybe this is not the right place for this kind of question... can anyone > suggest a better place so that the question has a chance to be read by the > person who is actually creating the installation packages? Should I try to > send this as a bug to bugs.python.org? P.S. Yes, in general, issues with the python.org binary installers for Windows and OS X can be addressed through bugs.python.org. -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk
In article , "Peter Tomcsanyi" wrote: > I use the Python 3.4.1 installer from > https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-341/ > > The Windows installation comes with Tcl/Tk version 8.6 which has some new > features (compared to 8.5) that are very important to me. > > But the Mac installer does not include Tcl/Tk and the page: > https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk > says: > "The Python 64-bit/32-bit Mac OS X installers for Python 3.4.x, 3.3.x, > 3.2.x, and 2.7.x dynamically link to Tcl/Tk 8.5 frameworks." > > I tried to download and install ActiveTcl 8.6.1 for Mac, but Python does not > use it... > > Can anyone help me make Python 3.4.1 use Tcl/Tk 8.6 on Mac OS X (10.9.2, if > that matters)? > > Does anyone know why the Windows installer brings the newest version of > Tcl/Tk while the Mac installer remains with the previous version? When this > is planned to be changed? The main reason is that we have tried to follow what Apple does with OS X. Unlike Windows, OS X is shipped with Apple-supplied versions of Tcl/Tk. For OS X 10.6, Apple helped support the development of a new native variant of Tk for OS X (the Cocoa Tk) that supports 64-bit mode. The previous OS X native mode Tk (Carbon) only works in 32-bit processes. At the time of the release of 10.6, Tk 8.6 was not yet released. For whatever reasons, Apple has continued to ship only 8.5 and 8.4 in releases through current 10.9.x. Unfortunately, it has turned out that Cocoa Tk has had a number of very serious bugs. Many of them have been fixed in newer releases of 8.5.x and the now-released 8.6.x but remain unfixed in the older versions of 8.5.x shipped by Apple. Also, up until relatively recent releases, there were issues with Python's Tkinter when built and linked with Tk 8.6.x. We think most of those issues should have been fixed in the current releases (like 3.4.1). But, because of the messy situation with Tk support on OS X, there really hasn't been an incentive for us to move to 8.6.x for the python.org OS X installers; it's been challenging enough to get 8.5.x stable. Another issue is that there are binary installers for some popular third-party packages for Python on OS X that depend on the python.org installers and also depend on Tk (like matplotlib) so any change in Tk version would affect them as well. At some point, I would like to move to 8.6.x or at least make it an option but we don't have a schedule for it yet. It's a bit messy to try to build Python with Tk 8.6 yourself from source but it can be done if you don't mind not using the python.org version. To do so, make sure you have ActiveTcl 8.6 installed and that it is the "Current" version in the /Library/Frameworks for Tcl and Tk. Then configure Python for a framework build (--enable-framework). Probably easier, though, is to install Python 3.4 from MacPorts which does provide its own version of Tcl/Tk 8.6.1, the Cocoa version by default or optionally an X11 version: # after installing the base MacPorts sudo port selfupdate sudo port install py34-tkinter +quartz /opt/local/bin/python3.4 The easiest option would be a downloadable package that would allow the default python.org 8.5-linked _tkinter to be overridden with an 8.6 version. There may be some news on that front in the near future. -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
