Re: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority
Hi Peter, thank you for your comments. This is, and has been for some time, QUANTA's sentiments exactly!! :-) Hence our two-day workshops/AGMs with dinner the night before the first day for setting up as required in Manchester. We (Sarah & I) are looking forward to meeting you all at the dinner in Edinburgh. Kind Regards, John Gilpin. QUANTA Membership Secretary and QUANTA Treasurer membership @quanta.org.uk treasurer @quanta.org.uk On 07/10/2014 10:07, pg...@q40.de wrote: As for presentations... is it possible to do some setup work inside the hall on Friday already? That would make things more relaxed and productive on Saturday, as there are usually some problems to solve. A one day event might turn out very short anyway ;-) ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority
Well, I have tried "QLPUI" and I can say it is a Brainsmasher. I know, that TT had a similar one in mind for the QL in the first place but that was abandoned and after all the FLRUN and DP and whatsoever software it had been a problem. There had never been an ICE and GIGAmouse and PE, if his ideas had been implimented. So now we have the chance, to get a new and real GUI. Ok, we have PE, but "QLPUI" would be a lot better. Cheers...Ralf - Original Message - From: "Dilwyn Jones" Fantastic, Peter! And if Geoff and the other organisers are listening, it would be great to be able to listen in to this via Skype if it is set up in time (and I am back home in time on Saturday morning). Dilwyn -Original Message- From: pg...@q40.de Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 9:00 AM To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority Hi, I hope to offer three presentations, two of my software projects and one hardware: * QLPUI: GUI with modern look & feel, themes, proportional fonts, and other features not yet available on the QL. Runs completely without Pointer Environment. * QLwIP: Native ethernet and TCP/IP: Ethernet connectivity, webserver, email, browser and file transfer without emulation. * Q68: Compact and modern QL compatible mainboard, running QDOS Classic and Minerva While each of the projects might in some way be of fundamental interest, the QLis30 website rightfully asks to keep presentations short. Any input where I should set the priorities? All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority
Fantastic, Peter! And if Geoff and the other organisers are listening, it would be great to be able to listen in to this via Skype if it is set up in time (and I am back home in time on Saturday morning). Dilwyn -Original Message- From: pg...@q40.de Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2014 9:00 AM To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority Hi, I hope to offer three presentations, two of my software projects and one hardware: * QLPUI: GUI with modern look & feel, themes, proportional fonts, and other features not yet available on the QL. Runs completely without Pointer Environment. * QLwIP: Native ethernet and TCP/IP: Ethernet connectivity, webserver, email, browser and file transfer without emulation. * Q68: Compact and modern QL compatible mainboard, running QDOS Classic and Minerva While each of the projects might in some way be of fundamental interest, the QLis30 website rightfully asks to keep presentations short. Any input where I should set the priorities? All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4037/8341 - Release Date: 10/07/14 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority
As for presentations... is it possible to do some setup work inside the hall on Friday already? That would make things more relaxed and productive on Saturday, as there are usually some problems to solve. A one day event might turn out very short anyway ;-) ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority
QLwIP sounds very interesting! Peter From: "pg...@q40.de" To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2014, 9:00 Subject: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority Hi, I hope to offer three presentations, two of my software projects and one hardware: * QLPUI: GUI with modern look & feel, themes, proportional fonts, and other features not yet available on the QL. Runs completely without Pointer Environment. * QLwIP: Native ethernet and TCP/IP: Ethernet connectivity, webserver, email, browser and file transfer without emulation. * Q68: Compact and modern QL compatible mainboard, running QDOS Classic and Minerva While each of the projects might in some way be of fundamental interest, the QLis30 website rightfully asks to keep presentations short. Any input where I should set the priorities? All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
[Ql-Users] QL is 30 presentations priority
Hi, I hope to offer three presentations, two of my software projects and one hardware: * QLPUI: GUI with modern look & feel, themes, proportional fonts, and other features not yet available on the QL. Runs completely without Pointer Environment. * QLwIP: Native ethernet and TCP/IP: Ethernet connectivity, webserver, email, browser and file transfer without emulation. * Q68: Compact and modern QL compatible mainboard, running QDOS Classic and Minerva While each of the projects might in some way be of fundamental interest, the QLis30 website rightfully asks to keep presentations short. Any input where I should set the priorities? All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] QL-is-30 Edinburgh
Thanks for the email. You have raised a lot of important points. On 31/03/2014 09:56, Colin Mckay wrote: The latest suggestion was that in terms of a meeting room, the event would extend over one day, i.e. a Saturday. Supposing the hours will be between 10am until 6pm, i.e. 8 hours, how will the various topics suggested by Geoff relate to each other in terms of time, and sound interference? This is not possible to say at this stage. It depends on who attends and what they have to offer. Not everyone is happy to give a presentation - some may prefer to give demonstrations at their table. At QL2004 and QLis21 I had two software authors whose work I wanted to profile, but both disliked public speaking. They agreed to let me present their programs and to be present to correct me if I made mistakes and to answer any questions. How to divide the time is one of the great problems. A criticism of QLis21 is that there was too much planned. I had planned a mixture of technical and general items and expected people to choose what they attended. In practice this did not work out. For example Dilwyn and Marcel had a full hall for a presentation on EasyPtr. An outside interest could be introduced in the form of a talk from a member of Edinburgh University's Computing Department on general computer developments, just to give the boffins of the QL world something to aim for, also general interest. A good suggestion and not ruled out. Anyone any ideas? Will the event be open to the public? If so, then a two day meeting could be more appropriate with only one day open to the public. QL people would be needed to deal with the public. SQLUG can provide at best only four members, unless some coffin lids will be prised open. In principle QL shows are open to everyone. I am not happy with two day events because my experience is that the second day tends to be a downer. At QLis21 people worked very hard on the first day and were tired as a result. Many enjoyed a relaxation in the bar after the show dinner and some overindulged. The next day few people ate breakfast. Most got up after 10.00 and went straight home. I had just 8 people for my GD2 colour tutorial that today is one of the most popular items on my website. It is harder to find venues for two days and I suspect they are the more expensive venues. Colin McKay 34 Taylor Avenue Tel/fax 01505 70 4471 Kilbarchan Johnstone Renfrewshire PA10 2LS ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] QL-is-30 Edinburgh
An outside interest could be introduced in the form of a talk from a member of Edinburgh University's Computing Department on general computer developments, just to give the boffins of the QL world something to aim for, also general interest. This sort of thing was done in the Lucerne, Switzerland meeting a few years ago, when non-QL friends of Urs König's such as Marcus Limmaker gave talks during the QL meeting. That worked quite well and was quite interesting and surprisingly relevant. Although that event was longer than one day long so was easier to accommodate. Dilwyn ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
[Ql-Users] QL-is-30 Edinburgh
The latest suggestion was that in terms of a meeting room, the event would extend over one day, i.e. a Saturday. Supposing the hours will be between 10am until 6pm, i.e. 8 hours, how will the various topics suggested by Geoff relate to each other in terms of time, and sound interference? An outside interest could be introduced in the form of a talk from a member of Edinburgh University's Computing Department on general computer developments, just to give the boffins of the QL world something to aim for, also general interest. Will the event be open to the public? If so, then a two day meeting could be more appropriate with only one day open to the public. QL people would be needed to deal with the public. SQLUG can provide at best only four members, unless some coffin lids will be prised open. Colin McKay 34 Taylor Avenue Tel/fax 01505 70 4471 Kilbarchan Johnstone Renfrewshire PA10 2LS ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] QL is 30 - Cambridge
One of QUANTA's points exactly, Colin. QUANTA Members in the Cambridge area? - I can't recall more than one or two if that and then there is always the problem of convincing such members that they really ought to get fell in and help (who?) probably those who travel halfway across the country to get there and can only do that if QUANTA picks up the travelling and accommodation costs. When I first saw your name against this topic, I thought (yes just for a brief second) that you were offering to run an Edinburgh Workshop - it doesn't even have to be the QL is 30 one!! Good to hear from you Colin. All the Best. Kind Regards, John Gilpin. QUANTA Membership Secretary. members...@quanta.org.uk On 07/01/2014 10:51, Colin Mckay wrote: As an extreme fringe member of this interchange I ask this: The intention appears to be to do more than just turn up to an empty room on the morning of the show, and quickly set up tables and chairs, also lay out a number of extension leads. For better preparation, how many people are there within practical reach of Cambridge to do suitable physical management of the event? Colin McKay ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
[Ql-Users] QL is 30 - Cambridge
As an extreme fringe member of this interchange I ask this: The intention appears to be to do more than just turn up to an empty room on the morning of the show, and quickly set up tables and chairs, also lay out a number of extension leads. For better preparation, how many people are there within practical reach of Cambridge to do suitable physical management of the event? Colin McKay ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
[Ql-Users] QL is 30 event!
Um my last email seems to have got eaten by da internet here it is again: I have written to Mike who runs the Cambridge Raspberry Jam to see if we can invade one of those after all it gets us to Cambridge in a nice place with kindred spirits around . Emulation of the QL via the Pi may also be a talking point. It's only been a day and he's not come back as of yet so lets see what he comes back with! Any further ideas from the list ? John A ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
If a "QL Is 30" happens at all (and it's more likely in September next year than April) wouldn't it be great if Peter was able to bring a Q68 (and any other personal QL projects he has working by then!) to show us at such a meeting! Dilwyn Jones -Original Message- From: Peter Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 3:15 PM To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30 Urs Koenig (QL) wrote: [...] 8. It should not be restricted to the QL only, but at least be themed and addressed as an all Sinclair event. Open for everyone, even for alien retro computer systems (ATARI, COMMODORE, AMSTRAD, etc.). Even at a Sinclair-only meeting, the QL would already be an almost negligible minority. If the scope is widened to even more systems (with even bigger user base), the QL completely moves out of focus. I have attended retro meetings in the past - they are nice if one is primarily interested in general computer history and chat, but I would not travel to England for just that. For my taste, "QL is 30" requires a very clear focus on the QL! I would definitely prefer a dedicated QL event with an audience of only 10 or 20 persons, to a general retro meeting with 100 or more. The recent German QL meeting has proved how busy and interesting a small event can be. Maybe I'd drive 50 km for a general retro meeting, 300 km for an all Sinclair meeting, but to motivate me for travelling to the UK, only the QL will do ;-) Please consider this just my personal taste - if the majority prefers a general event, it's fine. All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Agree! Let's get behind Rich's offer. Kenn Sent from my iPad > On 3 Dec 2013, at 19:26, Dave Park wrote: > > I think we should hold the event in Las Vegas, Nevada. > > Las Vegas has many convention halls and are ideally set-up for hosting such > a popular and successful event. Las Vegas has also worked hard to build the > infrastructure required to feed the massing hordes. Furthermore, Vegas has > entertainment and services needed to properly support the QL community in > the manner to which it has become accustomed. Why Las Vegas, though? It's a > holiday destination. Once you accept that for most people, traveling > internationally to get to any location means taking a holiday or vacation, > you logically end up in a situation where it makes sense only if the > location is vacation-friendly. > > Las Vegas is vacation-friendly! > > Now, I can hear what you're saying... "Dave just suggested Las Vegas > because it's in Murica!" No, not so. It will require less travel for all > you Europeans than it would for me. For me it would be a 4,200 mile (6,760 > km) round trip drive. But I'd do it. :) > > Sorry, I can't go on any longer :) > > Folks, I love and care for you all, but I want to bang your heads together. > It doesn't matter if the show is large or small, here or there. We can > barely even put on a show, so the fact one might happen at all is a > miracle. There have been at least three good offers to host a show, and one > clear request for movement and funding by Quanta, and yet nothing has > happened. It is now very VERY late in the day to hit the April/May target > for a show. Everyone feels let down and nobody feels responsible. > > For my money, I think Rich's (RWAP's) offer to host a show was the most > sound, and represented the combination of good location, minimal cost, and > best exposure to other users to grow the community. However, watching us > squabbling like little girls must have been very off-putting for him. We > should be thankful if he even thinks it's worth serving this community any > more. > > We should all be ashamed. > > Dave > > >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Geoff Wicks wrote: >> >>> On 03/12/2013 15:15, Peter wrote: >>> >>> Urs Koenig (QL) wrote: >>> >>> [...] 8. It should not be restricted to the QL only, but at least be themed and addressed as an all Sinclair event. Open for everyone, even for alien retro computer systems (ATARI, COMMODORE, AMSTRAD, etc.). >>> Even at a Sinclair-only meeting, the QL would already be an almost >>> negligible minority. If the scope is widened to even more systems (with >>> even bigger user base), the QL completely moves out of focus. >>> >>> I have attended retro meetings in the past - they are nice if one is >>> primarily interested in general computer history and chat, but I would not >>> travel to England for just that. For my taste, "QL is 30" requires a very >>> clear focus on the QL! >>> >>> I would definitely prefer a dedicated QL event with an audience of only 10 >>> or 20 persons, to a general retro meeting with 100 or more. The recent >>> German QL meeting has proved how busy and interesting a small event can >>> be. >>> >>> Maybe I'd drive 50 km for a general retro meeting, 300 km for an all >>> Sinclair meeting, but to motivate me for travelling to the UK, only the QL >>> will do ;-) Please consider this just my personal taste - if the majority >>> prefers a general event, it's fine. >> I agree with Peter on this. We need to think small - quality not >> quantity. If a meeting of 10 people results in benefits for the whole QL >> community then it is a worthwhile event. >> >> Small events are easier and cheaper to organise. You can use smaller and >> cheaper halls - workplaces, schools, church halls or - dare I say it - a >> scout hut. Catering can also be done cheaply and easily. Tea, coffee, >> biscuits plus soup and rolls. >> >> For this reason I liked the idea of a possible Edinburgh event especially >> as Peter and other German users had expressed an interest. It would be the >> core of a good meeting. >> >> I have already announced my intention not to renew my Quanta subscription >> in January. I would be happy to give the £20 saved as a contribution to the >> cost of a hall, >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> Geoff >> >> ___ >> QL-Users Mailing List >> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm > > > > -- > Dave Park > Sandy Electronics, LLC > d...@sinclairql.com > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
I think we should hold the event in Las Vegas, Nevada. Las Vegas has many convention halls and are ideally set-up for hosting such a popular and successful event. Las Vegas has also worked hard to build the infrastructure required to feed the massing hordes. Furthermore, Vegas has entertainment and services needed to properly support the QL community in the manner to which it has become accustomed. Why Las Vegas, though? It's a holiday destination. Once you accept that for most people, traveling internationally to get to any location means taking a holiday or vacation, you logically end up in a situation where it makes sense only if the location is vacation-friendly. Las Vegas is vacation-friendly! Now, I can hear what you're saying... "Dave just suggested Las Vegas because it's in Murica!" No, not so. It will require less travel for all you Europeans than it would for me. For me it would be a 4,200 mile (6,760 km) round trip drive. But I'd do it. :) Sorry, I can't go on any longer :) Folks, I love and care for you all, but I want to bang your heads together. It doesn't matter if the show is large or small, here or there. We can barely even put on a show, so the fact one might happen at all is a miracle. There have been at least three good offers to host a show, and one clear request for movement and funding by Quanta, and yet nothing has happened. It is now very VERY late in the day to hit the April/May target for a show. Everyone feels let down and nobody feels responsible. For my money, I think Rich's (RWAP's) offer to host a show was the most sound, and represented the combination of good location, minimal cost, and best exposure to other users to grow the community. However, watching us squabbling like little girls must have been very off-putting for him. We should be thankful if he even thinks it's worth serving this community any more. We should all be ashamed. Dave On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Geoff Wicks wrote: > On 03/12/2013 15:15, Peter wrote: > >> Urs Koenig (QL) wrote: >> >> [...] >>> >>> 8. It should not be restricted to the QL only, but at least be themed and >>> addressed as an all Sinclair event. Open for everyone, even for alien >>> retro >>> computer systems (ATARI, COMMODORE, AMSTRAD, etc.). >>> >> Even at a Sinclair-only meeting, the QL would already be an almost >> negligible minority. If the scope is widened to even more systems (with >> even bigger user base), the QL completely moves out of focus. >> >> I have attended retro meetings in the past - they are nice if one is >> primarily interested in general computer history and chat, but I would not >> travel to England for just that. For my taste, "QL is 30" requires a very >> clear focus on the QL! >> >> I would definitely prefer a dedicated QL event with an audience of only 10 >> or 20 persons, to a general retro meeting with 100 or more. The recent >> German QL meeting has proved how busy and interesting a small event can >> be. >> >> Maybe I'd drive 50 km for a general retro meeting, 300 km for an all >> Sinclair meeting, but to motivate me for travelling to the UK, only the QL >> will do ;-) Please consider this just my personal taste - if the majority >> prefers a general event, it's fine. >> >> > I agree with Peter on this. We need to think small - quality not > quantity. If a meeting of 10 people results in benefits for the whole QL > community then it is a worthwhile event. > > Small events are easier and cheaper to organise. You can use smaller and > cheaper halls - workplaces, schools, church halls or - dare I say it - a > scout hut. Catering can also be done cheaply and easily. Tea, coffee, > biscuits plus soup and rolls. > > For this reason I liked the idea of a possible Edinburgh event especially > as Peter and other German users had expressed an interest. It would be the > core of a good meeting. > > I have already announced my intention not to renew my Quanta subscription > in January. I would be happy to give the £20 saved as a contribution to the > cost of a hall, > > Best Wishes, > > > Geoff > > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm > -- Dave Park Sandy Electronics, LLC d...@sinclairql.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 03/12/2013 15:15, Peter wrote: Urs Koenig (QL) wrote: [...] 8. It should not be restricted to the QL only, but at least be themed and addressed as an all Sinclair event. Open for everyone, even for alien retro computer systems (ATARI, COMMODORE, AMSTRAD, etc.). Even at a Sinclair-only meeting, the QL would already be an almost negligible minority. If the scope is widened to even more systems (with even bigger user base), the QL completely moves out of focus. I have attended retro meetings in the past - they are nice if one is primarily interested in general computer history and chat, but I would not travel to England for just that. For my taste, "QL is 30" requires a very clear focus on the QL! I would definitely prefer a dedicated QL event with an audience of only 10 or 20 persons, to a general retro meeting with 100 or more. The recent German QL meeting has proved how busy and interesting a small event can be. Maybe I'd drive 50 km for a general retro meeting, 300 km for an all Sinclair meeting, but to motivate me for travelling to the UK, only the QL will do ;-) Please consider this just my personal taste - if the majority prefers a general event, it's fine. I agree with Peter on this. We need to think small - quality not quantity. If a meeting of 10 people results in benefits for the whole QL community then it is a worthwhile event. Small events are easier and cheaper to organise. You can use smaller and cheaper halls - workplaces, schools, church halls or - dare I say it - a scout hut. Catering can also be done cheaply and easily. Tea, coffee, biscuits plus soup and rolls. For this reason I liked the idea of a possible Edinburgh event especially as Peter and other German users had expressed an interest. It would be the core of a good meeting. I have already announced my intention not to renew my Quanta subscription in January. I would be happy to give the £20 saved as a contribution to the cost of a hall, Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Urs Koenig (QL) wrote: > [...] > > 8. It should not be restricted to the QL only, but at least be themed and > addressed as an all Sinclair event. Open for everyone, even for alien retro > computer systems (ATARI, COMMODORE, AMSTRAD, etc.). Even at a Sinclair-only meeting, the QL would already be an almost negligible minority. If the scope is widened to even more systems (with even bigger user base), the QL completely moves out of focus. I have attended retro meetings in the past - they are nice if one is primarily interested in general computer history and chat, but I would not travel to England for just that. For my taste, "QL is 30" requires a very clear focus on the QL! I would definitely prefer a dedicated QL event with an audience of only 10 or 20 persons, to a general retro meeting with 100 or more. The recent German QL meeting has proved how busy and interesting a small event can be. Maybe I'd drive 50 km for a general retro meeting, 300 km for an all Sinclair meeting, but to motivate me for travelling to the UK, only the QL will do ;-) Please consider this just my personal taste - if the majority prefers a general event, it's fine. All the best Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Derek Stewart wrote: > Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... Hi folks, back on the QL retro track (after being busy with the JAGUAR for a while) I would like to share my thoughts about a QL-is-30 event. I already had some email back and forth with Rich last spring. 1. The QL (community) definitely deserves such an event. 2. Such an event should be hold in the home country of Sinclair and the QL, in England. 3. It should be an international event, addressing visitors from all over the world. 4. It should be held at an attractive place/city where beside the show visitors (and their families) can enjoy other activities may it be historical, cultural or just shopping/dining. 5. Catering does not have to be a priority as because of #4 there will be plenty of restaurants/c-stores/markets of all quality and price ranges available. And, BYO food/drinks always works at such events. 6. The event should be 2 days, a full weekend. Held in either in late April/Mai or in September/October 2014 (to leave the summer free for family vacations and avoid the cold and travel-unfriendly winter). 7. The event should be a good mixture of activities in a meeting room (traditional QL show style), with desks for tinkerers, users and traders and sessions & talks in a lecture room. 8. It should not be restricted to the QL only, but at least be themed and addressed as an all Sinclair event. Open for everyone, even for alien retro computer systems (ATARI, COMMODORE, AMSTRAD, etc.). 9. The event should be promoted to a much wider audience than only posting it to ql-users and ql-forum. More forums, retro-magazines, facebook, twitter and the like. Even e-mailshots to (former) Sinclair/QL users. Taking all this together my favourite location is Cambridge may it be at the Cambridge Campus of the Anglia Ruskin University (with the option to visit the Sinclair building) or in the Centre for Computing History. London would also be an option as it is always worth visiting. I'm pretty sure continental visitors mostly agree with my thoughts. Together with my Swiss QL friends I ran the "QL-Mac-are-25" international show - the last big scale QL show - in Lucerne 4 years ago with a similar concept. The website (with facts & figures, pictures, videos and presentations) of that event is still up at http://tinyurl.com/ql-mac-show. We had some 50 visitors. Thanks to the remaining funds of the Swiss Sinclair User Group and donations by QUANTA and others the event has been fully sponsored and could be ran as a free entry event (no admission fee). Total costs were CHF 3257 whereof CHF 2532 were for the posh venue (rooms and associated services). All work and travel by us enthusiast was voluntary and unpaid. 10 days ago there was the E-JAGFEST 2013 in Duisburg, Germany - a two days international event celebrating the 20th anniversary of the ATARI JAGUAR - which was ran on a similar concept. There were some 50 visitors from Germany, the Netherlands, the UK and Switzerland. Budget was tight, so a fair admission fee applied. And back to topic, two QLers - Jochen and myself - attended. Here's a playlist of videos about that event http://tinyurl.com/Jag-is-20. Jochen and myself can be seen in part 10. Even life is not easy and things get complicated sometime, I would definitely work hard to attend such an event. Excuses like my car is not fit, I don't like trains, a 4 hours trip within Britain is horrible, etc. sound strange to me (and most likely to other continentals who will travel much longer ways and days). If you're a Sinclair/QL enthusiast then such things should not stop one from attending the show. Just my two pennies... QL forever! Cheers, Urs ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 11/11/2013 20:59, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services wrote: On Mon, November 11, 2013 8:54 pm, Tobias Fröschle wrote: Am 11.11.2013 um 21:00 schrieb Peter Graf: SQLUG could probably find a location and maybe pay for the hall in Edinburgh or even possibly Glasgow. Would be somewhere different and attract people both from the continent and Britain? Who would come? QL is 30 in Scotland sounds cool :) I would try to come. Peter I might as well - It's way too long I have not been there. Tobias Actually, it might be a good idea - but the main issue is whether speakers would be willing to travel! Good to see so much interest and let's hope it can be pursued, but can we be clear on one point. This would not be an alternative to a continental event. This would be a UK event. Who is going to finance and organise? Best wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 11/11/2013 22:31, John Gilpin wrote: On 11/11/2013 19:54, Geoff Wicks wrote: On 11/11/2013 19:14, Derek Stewart wrote: On 10/11/13 16:57, Geoff Wicks wrote: On 09/11/2013 20:27, Derek Stewart wrote: On 09/11/13 16:21, Norman Dunbar wrote: Evening all, new job, no time for hardly anything at the moment, so a serious delay in replying. In the event of there being a QL is 30 event, in the UK or abroad, it is highly unlikely that I would attend. Cheers, Norm. Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Please do not be silly... I am not being silly. You are the one that's being silly. Someone has to organise a UK show and Quanta has refused to do it, Best wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Hey, Hang on Geoff, I cannot find any record of QUANTA "refusing to organise a UK show" - ever. Who's organised the AGM weekend for the past decade or so? If QUANTA have failed to organise the right TYPE of event, then that's a different issue. It hasn't been for the want of asking for someone else (or some other sub-group) to put on a suitable event that QUANTA can use to hold their AGM at. I seem to recall that it was you who condemned one of the very few other offers of help as "unsuitable venue" - a point that the QUANTA Committee had to agree with after receiving your report. Another occasion of "You die if you do and you die if you don't" I think!! Can YOU get information from the QUANTA Membership regarding just what they do want As usual John you have missed the point. We are talking about a specific event. When I suggested the Birmingham venue was unsuitable I continued to work for an alternative and in fact organised the activity program for that event. That is the difference between Quanta and me, Best wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 11/11/2013 19:54, Geoff Wicks wrote: On 11/11/2013 19:14, Derek Stewart wrote: On 10/11/13 16:57, Geoff Wicks wrote: On 09/11/2013 20:27, Derek Stewart wrote: On 09/11/13 16:21, Norman Dunbar wrote: Evening all, new job, no time for hardly anything at the moment, so a serious delay in replying. In the event of there being a QL is 30 event, in the UK or abroad, it is highly unlikely that I would attend. Cheers, Norm. Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Please do not be silly... I am not being silly. You are the one that's being silly. Someone has to organise a UK show and Quanta has refused to do it, Best wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Hey, Hang on Geoff, I cannot find any record of QUANTA "refusing to organise a UK show" - ever. Who's organised the AGM weekend for the past decade or so? If QUANTA have failed to organise the right TYPE of event, then that's a different issue. It hasn't been for the want of asking for someone else (or some other sub-group) to put on a suitable event that QUANTA can use to hold their AGM at. I seem to recall that it was you who condemned one of the very few other offers of help as "unsuitable venue" - a point that the QUANTA Committee had to agree with after receiving your report. Another occasion of "You die if you do and you die if you don't" I think!! Can YOU get information from the QUANTA Membership regarding just what they do want? Regards to all, John Gilpin. QUANTA Membership Secretary. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
I would be very tempted to come over for a QL30 event in Edinburgh. /Petri On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 8:01 PM, jms1 wrote: > SQLUG could probably find a location and maybe pay for the hall in > Edinburgh or even possibly Glasgow. > > Would be somewhere different and attract people both from the continent > and Britain? > > Who would come? > > > > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm > ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On Mon, November 11, 2013 8:54 pm, Tobias Fröschle wrote: > > Am 11.11.2013 um 21:00 schrieb Peter Graf: > >>> SQLUG could probably find a location and maybe pay for the hall in >>> Edinburgh or even possibly Glasgow. >>> >>> Would be somewhere different and attract people both from the continent >>> and Britain? >>> >>> Who would come? >> >> QL is 30 in Scotland sounds cool :) I would try to come. >> >> Peter > > I might as well - It's way too long I have not been there. > > Tobias > Actually, it might be a good idea - but the main issue is whether speakers would be willing to travel! Rich Mellor www.rwapsoftware.co.uk www.sellmyretro.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Am 11.11.2013 um 21:00 schrieb Peter Graf: >> SQLUG could probably find a location and maybe pay for the hall in >> Edinburgh or even possibly Glasgow. >> >> Would be somewhere different and attract people both from the continent >> and Britain? >> >> Who would come? > > QL is 30 in Scotland sounds cool :) I would try to come. > > Peter I might as well - It's way too long I have not been there. Tobias ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
> SQLUG could probably find a location and maybe pay for the hall in > Edinburgh or even possibly Glasgow. > > Would be somewhere different and attract people both from the continent > and Britain? > > Who would come? QL is 30 in Scotland sounds cool :) I would try to come. Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 11/11/2013 19:14, Derek Stewart wrote: On 10/11/13 16:57, Geoff Wicks wrote: On 09/11/2013 20:27, Derek Stewart wrote: On 09/11/13 16:21, Norman Dunbar wrote: Evening all, new job, no time for hardly anything at the moment, so a serious delay in replying. In the event of there being a QL is 30 event, in the UK or abroad, it is highly unlikely that I would attend. Cheers, Norm. Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Please do not be silly... I am not being silly. You are the one that's being silly. Someone has to organise a UK show and Quanta has refused to do it, Best wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Quanta workshops: probably about 20 people. Based on committee members, local NEMQLUG group members and a small number who travelled from further afield. Thanks Dilwyn. This is for UK events, right? Yes. Dilwyn ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 10/11/13 16:57, Geoff Wicks wrote: On 09/11/2013 20:27, Derek Stewart wrote: On 09/11/13 16:21, Norman Dunbar wrote: Evening all, new job, no time for hardly anything at the moment, so a serious delay in replying. In the event of there being a QL is 30 event, in the UK or abroad, it is highly unlikely that I would attend. Cheers, Norm. Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm Please do not be silly... ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
I would prefer Eindhoven. Ok, there were the best venues of my my QL-Life, my fault ;-). But I think, it would be best for all (except Sjef...;-)) to have a place to travel. Cheers---Ralf - Original Message - From: "jms1" SQLUG could probably find a location and maybe pay for the hall in Edinburgh or even possibly Glasgow. Would be somewhere different and attract people both from the continent and Britain? Who would come? ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
SQLUG could probably find a location and maybe pay for the hall in Edinburgh or even possibly Glasgow. Would be somewhere different and attract people both from the continent and Britain? Who would come? ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 11/11/2013 15:27, Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: Hi, Then let's be serious. What is the minimum number you would want at a continental show to ensure its viability? Actually, none. I just want to get a feel for the number that *might* come. Suppose someone were to organize something. Would it make sense to organise a location that can hold 20 people? 30? 100? etc I'm quite aware that any number anyone can give is highly speculative, but at least I'd get a feel of what one might expect. Personally I would see nothing wrong with an attendance as low as 12. With the type of people who would be likely to attend a continental show you are likely to get a good cross fertilisation of ideas that will, either directly or indirectly, benefit the entire QL community. Ah yes, quality not quantity...:-) Thanks for your input! I am suprised that so far no one has referred to the numbers attending the 25 year Lucerne show. I believe about 20 people attended. I am not sure that the Quanta attendance figures in their present form are helpful, so a little amplification. As far as I can tell of the people who have recently attended a Quanta show only four have ever been to a continental event. There is a complication that attendees at Quanta shows represent only about one twentieth of the UK QL community and a further complication that there have been no UK shows in the south for over 10 years. Thus the number of potential UK attendees is probably higher than 4, but I suspect you could still count the total on your fingers, Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Hi, Then let's be serious. What is the minimum number you would want at a continental show to ensure its viability? Actually, none. I just want to get a feel for the number that *might* come. Suppose someone were to organize something. Would it make sense to organise a location that can hold 20 people? 30? 100? etc I'm quite aware that any number anyone can give is highly speculative, but at least I'd get a feel of what one might expect. Personally I would see nothing wrong with an attendance as low as 12. With the type of people who would be likely to attend a continental show you are likely to get a good cross fertilisation of ideas that will, either directly or indirectly, benefit the entire QL community. Ah yes, quality not quantity...:-) Thanks for your input! Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 11/11/2013 07:53, Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Let's not get sidetracked. I'd like to repeat my earlier question : can anyone guestimate how many people would attend? What about the last 6 or 7 shows, either in the UK or abroad : how many people came (roughly?). Then let's be serious. What is the minimum number you would want at a continental show to ensure its viability? Personally I would see nothing wrong with an attendance as low as 12. With the type of people who would be likely to attend a continental show you are likely to get a good cross fertilisation of ideas that will, either directly or indirectly, benefit the entire QL community. Unfortunately we cannot say the same about the UK because, unlike the continent, there is no experience of running small scale shows, Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Hi Wolfgang, Over the past few years the attendance at the QUANTA events (2-day workshop, Evening dinner, and Annual General Meeting - held in Manchester) the average attendance -including Committee Members, has been about 17. Regards, John Gilpin. QUANTA Membership Secretary & Treasurer. On 11/11/2013 07:53, Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Let's not get sidetracked. I'd like to repeat my earlier question : can anyone guestimate how many people would attend? What about the last 6 or 7 shows, either in the UK or abroad : how many people came (roughly?). Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Hi, Quanta workshops: probably about 20 people. Based on committee members, local NEMQLUG group members and a small number who travelled from further afield. Thanks Dilwyn. This is for UK events, right? > as for estimations on how many people attend QL meetings, we had 6 at > German QL meeting yesterday. The meeting was local and not widely > announced. Nevertheless it took 7 hours and there was so much > activity, that we ran out of time. I have not seen such a busy > meeting since the Q40 prototype meeting with Tony Tebby in Eindhoven > 1997. > > Thanks Peter, all the people who attended were local, right? Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Hi all, as for estimations on how many people attend QL meetings, we had 6 at the German QL meeting yesterday. The meeting was local and not widely announced. Nevertheless it took 7 hours and there was so much activity, that we ran out of time. I have not seen such a busy meeting since the Q40 prototype meeting with Tony Tebby in Eindhoven 1997. Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Quanta workshops: probably about 20 people. Based on committee members, local NEMQLUG group members and a small number who travelled from further afield. Hence why Rich is making the effort to try to organise something so different for next year, to try to improve attendance. Hopefully, if he can get people talking about it now, he can succeed in making it a much better attended event than a Quanta workshop. Dilwyn -Original Message- From: Wolfgang Lenerz Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:53 AM To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30 Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Let's not get sidetracked. I'd like to repeat my earlier question : can anyone guestimate how many people would attend? What about the last 6 or 7 shows, either in the UK or abroad : how many people came (roughly?). Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Let's not get sidetracked. I'd like to repeat my earlier question : can anyone guestimate how many people would attend? What about the last 6 or 7 shows, either in the UK or abroad : how many people came (roughly?). Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 09/11/2013 20:27, Derek Stewart wrote: On 09/11/13 16:21, Norman Dunbar wrote: Evening all, new job, no time for hardly anything at the moment, so a serious delay in replying. In the event of there being a QL is 30 event, in the UK or abroad, it is highly unlikely that I would attend. Cheers, Norm. Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... How very kind of you to offer to organise and finance the UK event! Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 09/11/13 16:21, Norman Dunbar wrote: Evening all, new job, no time for hardly anything at the moment, so a serious delay in replying. In the event of there being a QL is 30 event, in the UK or abroad, it is highly unlikely that I would attend. Cheers, Norm. Hi, Why not have a QL Show in each country and we support each other... Derek ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Evening all, new job, no time for hardly anything at the moment, so a serious delay in replying. In the event of there being a QL is 30 event, in the UK or abroad, it is highly unlikely that I would attend. Cheers, Norm. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: 27a Lidget Hill Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7LG Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Hi Ralf, are you aware of the German QL meeting next Sunday in Dormagen? QL-SD and Q68 will be shown. There will a number of new or returned QL users. An indication that "QL is 30" should be held in Germany"? (More or less jokeing...) Peter ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
As I said. - Original Message - From: "G WICKS" Having said that the Netherlands would be a good location because it is accessible from many other countries. I think there is far more chance of an event on the continent than in the UK. Quanta has no desire to run a QLis30 event and is recent record on running shows has been abysmal, Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
From: Ralf Reköndt To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Sent: Wednesday, 6 November 2013, 18:52 Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30 OK, I think, Eindhoven is good for that. @@ Unfortunately Eindhoven is probably not available. It was used as a venue because Sjef v.d. Molengraaf was on the staff there. When a new head was appointed he did not know Sjef and was reluctant to let him use the school. Having said that the Netherlands would be a good location because it is accessible from many other countries. I think there is far more chance of an event on the continent than in the UK. Quanta has no desire to run a QLis30 event and is recent record on running shows has been abysmal, Best Wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
I disagree - I think that the ql-user mailing list is not necessarily the best place to ask for interest in this. The QL Forum is gaining new members all the while - many of whom have only just obtained a QL and it is probably better to include them in any discussion. One of the issues with location (apart from the cost of the venue) is of course that if Quanta would like to have a presence, the cost and persuading them that going to a QL event (rather than just a Quanta event) is worthwhile. That said, personally, the problems for me (as one of the last traders) is the cost and distance - as I am not driving very far at the moment, and I would need to take stock! Rich www.rwapsoftware.co.uk www.sellmyretro.com On Wed, November 6, 2013 6:52 pm, Ralf Reköndt wrote: > OK, I think, Eindhoven is good for that. > > - Original Message - > From: "Geoff Wicks" > Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:43 PM > Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30 > > >> On 06/11/2013 14:22, Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: >>> Hi, >>> Just out of idle curiosity, does anybody have a reasonable guestimate >>> at how many people (say Qlers only) would be likely to attend such an >>> event? What if it was held outside of the UK? >>> >>> Wolfgang >>> >>> ___ >>> QL-Users Mailing List >>> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm >> There is no evidence of widespread interest in the UK. >> >> I suspect something would be possible on the continent provided it was >> not too ambitious. There is a greater tradition of running smaller >> events in terms of attendance, >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> Geoff >> ___ >> QL-Users Mailing List >> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm > ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
OK, I think, Eindhoven is good for that. - Original Message - From: "Geoff Wicks" Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30 On 06/11/2013 14:22, Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: Hi, Just out of idle curiosity, does anybody have a reasonable guestimate at how many people (say Qlers only) would be likely to attend such an event? What if it was held outside of the UK? Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm There is no evidence of widespread interest in the UK. I suspect something would be possible on the continent provided it was not too ambitious. There is a greater tradition of running smaller events in terms of attendance, Best wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
On 06/11/2013 14:22, Wolfgang Lenerz wrote: Hi, Just out of idle curiosity, does anybody have a reasonable guestimate at how many people (say Qlers only) would be likely to attend such an event? What if it was held outside of the UK? Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm There is no evidence of widespread interest in the UK. I suspect something would be possible on the continent provided it was not too ambitious. There is a greater tradition of running smaller events in terms of attendance, Best wishes, Geoff ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ql is 30
Hi, Just out of idle curiosity, does anybody have a reasonable guestimate at how many people (say Qlers only) would be likely to attend such an event? What if it was held outside of the UK? Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
