Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Derek Stewart]

Hi,

I watch and sometimes input.

Regards,

Derek

On 12/10/16 22:31, Klaus-Peter Greiner wrote:

Nearby, i am eagerly watching this list since years; so i am the third
listener 8-)

regards
Klaus-Peter Greiner

Am 12.10.16 um 11:45 schrieb François Van Emelen:

Op 11/10/2016 om 18:15 schreef Ralf Reköndt:

What was the cure?

- Original Message - From: "François Van Emelen"


Sorry for the late reply: I am having some health problems.

Wolfgang found the problem and told me how to solve it.

New timings

Conversion of a DBF-file to a DBS-file (from dos1_ to win2_)

Qpc2 : before correction 1423 sec. after correction 24 sec. (59 x
faster)

Smsqmulator : before correction 47 sec. after correction 26 sec.
(1,8 x faster)

Many thanks to Wolfgang.

Have a fine day,

François Van Emelen


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Hi Ralf,

It was a programming error: an instruction ('update') inside a loop
that should have been outside that loop. Ihis implied an 'update'
after each field (in this case 118) instead of only ONE 'update'
outside the loop. (Is this understandable English?)

Why such an important difference between QPC2 (60x slower) and
QMSQmulator (1.8x slower)? Wolfgang told me that QMSQmulator uses its
own 'win-driver'. For more explanation, you 'd better ask Wolfgang or
Marcel. My skills are limited to some easy Sbasic unfortunately.

Thanks for your reply. that makes 2 listeners on this list :).

François Van Emelen



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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Klaus-Peter Greiner]

Nearby, i am eagerly watching this list since years; so i am the third 
listener 8-)


regards
Klaus-Peter Greiner

Am 12.10.16 um 11:45 schrieb François Van Emelen:

Op 11/10/2016 om 18:15 schreef Ralf Reköndt:

What was the cure?

- Original Message - From: "François Van Emelen"


Sorry for the late reply: I am having some health problems.

Wolfgang found the problem and told me how to solve it.

New timings

Conversion of a DBF-file to a DBS-file (from dos1_ to win2_)

Qpc2 : before correction 1423 sec. after correction 24 sec. (59 x 
faster)


Smsqmulator : before correction 47 sec. after correction 26 sec. 
(1,8 x faster)


Many thanks to Wolfgang.

Have a fine day,

François Van Emelen 


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Hi Ralf,

It was a programming error: an instruction ('update') inside a loop 
that should have been outside that loop. Ihis implied an 'update' 
after each field (in this case 118) instead of only ONE 'update' 
outside the loop. (Is this understandable English?)


Why such an important difference between QPC2 (60x slower) and 
QMSQmulator (1.8x slower)? Wolfgang told me that QMSQmulator uses its 
own 'win-driver'. For more explanation, you 'd better ask Wolfgang or 
Marcel. My skills are limited to some easy Sbasic unfortunately.


Thanks for your reply. that makes 2 listeners on this list :).

François Van Emelen



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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Alexandre Souza]

And how far people are listening...Greetings from Brazil! :)

2016-10-12 8:38 GMT-03:00 Andreas Berger :

> Am 12.10.2016 um 11:45 schrieb François Van Emelen:
>
> Thanks for your reply. that makes 2 listeners on this list :).
>>
>
> you don't know who all is watching/listening - and only not writing at all
> :-)
>
> regards, Andreas
>
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Ralf Reköndt]

Ah, ok, but we have to wait for Marcel to put this into QPC, as he has a 
special SMSQ/E.


- Original Message - 
From: "Wolfgang Lenerz"



Hi,

Put simply, the record "update" forces a flushing of all the buffers for
the file. When using the SMSQ/E routines, this may give rise to writing
several sectors to the disk, one after the other, which is slow. My win
driver handles that a bit differently - there is no  buffer to flush per 
se.


Wolfgang



Hi Ralf,

It was a programming error: an instruction ('update') inside a loop that
should have been outside that loop. Ihis implied an 'update' after each
field (in this case 118) instead of only ONE 'update' outside the loop.
(Is this understandable English?)

Why such an important difference between QPC2 (60x slower) and
QMSQmulator (1.8x slower)? Wolfgang told me that QMSQmulator uses its
own 'win-driver'. For more explanation, you 'd better ask Wolfgang or
Marcel. My skills are limited to some easy Sbasic unfortunately.

Thanks for your reply. that makes 2 listeners on this list :).

François Van Emelen 


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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Wolfgang Lenerz]

Hi,

Put simply, the record "update" forces a flushing of all the buffers for
the file. When using the SMSQ/E routines, this may give rise to writing
several sectors to the disk, one after the other, which is slow. My win
driver handles that a bit differently - there is no  buffer to flush per se.

Wolfgang


> Hi Ralf,
> 
> It was a programming error: an instruction ('update') inside a loop that
> should have been outside that loop. Ihis implied an 'update' after each
> field (in this case 118) instead of only ONE 'update' outside the loop.
> (Is this understandable English?)
> 
> Why such an important difference between QPC2 (60x slower) and
> QMSQmulator (1.8x slower)? Wolfgang told me that QMSQmulator uses its
> own 'win-driver'. For more explanation, you 'd better ask Wolfgang or
> Marcel. My skills are limited to some easy Sbasic unfortunately.
> 
> Thanks for your reply. that makes 2 listeners on this list :).
> 
> François Van Emelen
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Andreas Berger]

Am 12.10.2016 um 11:45 schrieb François Van Emelen:


Thanks for your reply. that makes 2 listeners on this list :).


you don't know who all is watching/listening - and only not writing at 
all :-)


regards, Andreas

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[jms1]

Francois your english is good

John

On 2016-10-12 10:45, François Van Emelen wrote:

Op 11/10/2016 om 18:15 schreef Ralf Reköndt:

What was the cure?

- Original Message - From: "François Van Emelen"


Sorry for the late reply: I am having some health problems.

Wolfgang found the problem and told me how to solve it.

New timings

Conversion of a DBF-file to a DBS-file (from dos1_ to win2_)

Qpc2 : before correction 1423 sec. after correction 24 sec. (59 x 
faster)


Smsqmulator : before correction 47 sec. after correction 26 sec. 
(1,8 x faster)


Many thanks to Wolfgang.

Have a fine day,

François Van Emelen


___
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Hi Ralf,

It was a programming error: an instruction ('update') inside a loop
that should have been outside that loop. Ihis implied an 'update'
after each field (in this case 118) instead of only ONE 'update'
outside the loop. (Is this understandable English?)

Why such an important difference between QPC2 (60x slower) and
QMSQmulator (1.8x slower)? Wolfgang told me that QMSQmulator uses its
own 'win-driver'. For more explanation, you 'd better ask Wolfgang or
Marcel. My skills are limited to some easy Sbasic unfortunately.

Thanks for your reply. that makes 2 listeners on this list :).

François Van Emelen



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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[François Van Emelen]

Op 11/10/2016 om 18:15 schreef Ralf Reköndt:

What was the cure?

- Original Message - From: "François Van Emelen"


Sorry for the late reply: I am having some health problems.

Wolfgang found the problem and told me how to solve it.

New timings

Conversion of a DBF-file to a DBS-file (from dos1_ to win2_)

Qpc2 : before correction 1423 sec. after correction 24 sec. (59 x 
faster)


Smsqmulator : before correction 47 sec. after correction 26 sec. (1,8 
x faster)


Many thanks to Wolfgang.

Have a fine day,

François Van Emelen 


___
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Hi Ralf,

It was a programming error: an instruction ('update') inside a loop that 
should have been outside that loop. Ihis implied an 'update' after each 
field (in this case 118) instead of only ONE 'update' outside the loop. 
(Is this understandable English?)


Why such an important difference between QPC2 (60x slower) and 
QMSQmulator (1.8x slower)? Wolfgang told me that QMSQmulator uses its 
own 'win-driver'. For more explanation, you 'd better ask Wolfgang or 
Marcel. My skills are limited to some easy Sbasic unfortunately.


Thanks for your reply. that makes 2 listeners on this list :).

François Van Emelen



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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Ralf Reköndt]

What was the cure?

- Original Message - 
From: "François Van Emelen"



Sorry for the late reply: I am having some health problems.

Wolfgang found the problem and told me how to solve it.

New timings

Conversion of a DBF-file to a DBS-file (from dos1_ to win2_)

Qpc2 : before correction 1423 sec. after correction 24 sec. (59 x faster)

Smsqmulator : before correction 47 sec. after correction 26 sec. (1,8 x 
faster)


Many thanks to Wolfgang.

Have a fine day,

François Van Emelen 


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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[François Van Emelen]

Op 6/08/2016 om 13:48 schreef pjwitte:

On 06/08/2016 11:46, François Van Emelen wrote:

Yesterday evening I copied my win2_ (my default) to another location
and linked it to QPC2/SMSQE as WIN7_.
I deleted all files and directories with PWfiles. I then defragmented
my hard drive. Conversion to that empty win7_ took more than 23
minutes... not much faster than before. Lack of space, fragmentation
and swap file can't be the reason why writing to a win device is so
slow (imho). Couldn't the design of the filing system of SMSQ itself
be the cause?

I am not a native speaker ... so the above is perhaps not that
understandable.
Thanks for your contribution.
François Van Emelen


I did a quick test:

QPC2 4.04/SMSQE 3.26 on Win10/2.67GHz/6Gb/500Gb SSD HD

Created a spanking new win8_200
Copied my win2_ to win8_
150Mb (net 135.69Mb)
737 dirs, 8227 files

it took 59 seconds
==

Then I copied the same win2_ to nul (obviously without creating 
(sub)directories on the way)


it took 39 seconds
==

This is about what Id expect. It appears you may have a problem.. ;)

Per
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Sorry for the late reply: I am having some health problems.

Wolfgang found the problem and told me how to solve it.

New timings

Conversion of a DBF-file to a DBS-file (from dos1_ to win2_)

Qpc2 : before correction 1423 sec. after correction 24 sec. (59 x faster)

Smsqmulator : before correction 47 sec. after correction 26 sec. (1,8 x 
faster)


Many thanks to Wolfgang.

Have a fine day,

François Van Emelen




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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[pjwitte]

On 06/08/2016 11:46, François Van Emelen wrote:

Yesterday evening I copied my win2_ (my default) to another location
and linked it to QPC2/SMSQE as WIN7_.
I deleted all files and directories with PWfiles. I then defragmented
my hard drive. Conversion to that empty win7_ took more than 23
minutes... not much faster than before. Lack of space, fragmentation
and swap file can't be the reason why writing to a win device is so
slow (imho). Couldn't the design of the filing system of SMSQ itself
be the cause?

I am not a native speaker ... so the above is perhaps not that
understandable.
Thanks for your contribution.
François Van Emelen


I did a quick test:

QPC2 4.04/SMSQE 3.26 on Win10/2.67GHz/6Gb/500Gb SSD HD

Created a spanking new win8_200
Copied my win2_ to win8_
150Mb (net 135.69Mb)
737 dirs, 8227 files

it took 59 seconds
==

Then I copied the same win2_ to nul (obviously without creating 
(sub)directories on the way)


it took 39 seconds
==

This is about what Id expect. It appears you may have a problem.. ;)

Per
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Tobias Fröschle]

Have you tried converting to a *freshly formatted* (instead of "made empty") 
win7 qxl-win file? It could well be that the win7 format is somehow corrupted. 

Tobias


> Am 06.08.2016 um 11:46 schrieb François Van Emelen 
> :
> 
> Yesterday evening I copied my win2_ (my default) to another location and 
> linked it to QPC2/SMSQE as WIN7_.
> I deleted all files and directories with PWfiles. I then defragmented my hard 
> drive. Conversion to that empty win7_ took more than 23 minutes... not much 
> faster than before. Lack of space, fragmentation and swap file can't be the 
> reason why writing to a win device is so slow (imho). Couldn't the design of 
> the filing system of SMSQ itself be the cause?
> 
> I am not a native speaker ... so the above is perhaps not that understandable.
> Thanks for your contribution.
> François Van Emelen
> 
> Op 5/08/2016 om 20:17 schreef RWAP Software:
>> 'tIt could depend on a couple of things I should imagine:
>> 
>> a) Whether the win file is fragmented on your PC's hard disk
>> b) Whether the win file is full so each write it has to be extended first to 
>> make room
>> c) The size of your swap file on the PC and how that is being used (again 
>> that may be fragmented)
>> 
>> Rich
>> 
>> ---
>> Rich Mellor RWAP Software www.rwapsoftware.co.uk www.sellmyretro.com
>> 
>> On 2016-08-05 17:11, François Van Emelen wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Why is writing to WIN device so slow compared to writing to RAM and DOS 
>>> device?
>>> 
>>> Converting a 500KB DBF-file (dbase3/foxbase) DBS-file from dos1_
>>> 
>>> 1) to RAM1_ less than 15 sec.
>>> 
>>> 2) to DOS1_ less than 20 sec.
>>> 
>>> 3) to WIN2_ more than 25 MINUTES
>>> 
>>> Why such a huge difference?
>>> 
>>> François Van Emelen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[François Van Emelen]

Yesterday evening I copied my win2_ (my default) to another location and 
linked it to QPC2/SMSQE as WIN7_.
I deleted all files and directories with PWfiles. I then defragmented my 
hard drive. Conversion to that empty win7_ took more than 23 minutes... 
not much faster than before. Lack of space, fragmentation and swap file 
can't be the reason why writing to a win device is so slow (imho). 
Couldn't the design of the filing system of SMSQ itself be the cause?


I am not a native speaker ... so the above is perhaps not that 
understandable.

Thanks for your contribution.
François Van Emelen

Op 5/08/2016 om 20:17 schreef RWAP Software:

'tIt could depend on a couple of things I should imagine:

a) Whether the win file is fragmented on your PC's hard disk
b) Whether the win file is full so each write it has to be extended 
first to make room
c) The size of your swap file on the PC and how that is being used 
(again that may be fragmented)


Rich

---
Rich Mellor RWAP Software www.rwapsoftware.co.uk www.sellmyretro.com

On 2016-08-05 17:11, François Van Emelen wrote:

Hi,

Why is writing to WIN device so slow compared to writing to RAM and 
DOS device?


Converting a 500KB DBF-file (dbase3/foxbase) DBS-file from dos1_

1) to RAM1_ less than 15 sec.

2) to DOS1_ less than 20 sec.

3) to WIN2_ more than 25 MINUTES

Why such a huge difference?

François Van Emelen



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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[RWAP Software]

It could depend on a couple of things I should imagine:

a) Whether the win file is fragmented on your PC's hard disk
b) Whether the win file is full so each write it has to be extended 
first to make room
c) The size of your swap file on the PC and how that is being used 
(again that may be fragmented)


Rich

---
Rich Mellor RWAP Software www.rwapsoftware.co.uk www.sellmyretro.com

On 2016-08-05 17:11, François Van Emelen wrote:

Hi,

Why is writing to WIN device so slow compared to writing to RAM and DOS 
device?


Converting a 500KB DBF-file (dbase3/foxbase) DBS-file from dos1_

1) to RAM1_ less than 15 sec.

2) to DOS1_ less than 20 sec.

3) to WIN2_ more than 25 MINUTES

Why such a huge difference?

François Van Emelen



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Re: [Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[Giorgio Garabello]

tried with a different .win?
same result?

2016-08-05 18:11 GMT+02:00 François Van Emelen <
francois.vaneme...@telenet.be>:

> Hi,
>
> Why is writing to WIN device so slow compared to writing to RAM and DOS
> device?
>
> Converting a 500KB DBF-file (dbase3/foxbase) DBS-file from dos1_
>
> 1) to RAM1_ less than 15 sec.
>
> 2) to DOS1_ less than 20 sec.
>
> 3) to WIN2_ more than 25 MINUTES
>
> Why such a huge difference?
>
> François Van Emelen
>
>
>
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[Ql-Users] Why so slow?

[François Van Emelen]

Hi,

Why is writing to WIN device so slow compared to writing to RAM and DOS 
device?


Converting a 500KB DBF-file (dbase3/foxbase) DBS-file from dos1_

1) to RAM1_ less than 15 sec.

2) to DOS1_ less than 20 sec.

3) to WIN2_ more than 25 MINUTES

Why such a huge difference?

François Van Emelen



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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Norman Dunbar]

On 19/04/15 15:13, Norman Dunbar wrote:


However, I'll have another look at SET_AP - now that I've got a working
version of LibGen that doesn't trash QPC when it is run! :-)


I have a working example now of a program that sets up a dynamic menu. 
It seems I need to design the window with a menu to start with, the 
SET_AP will work.


As noted previously, I need to call WM_WRSET after calling SET_AP or the 
program just crashes.


Looks like I need to amend LibGen so that I redraw all my own 
information windows, with dynamic content, whenever I create a dynamic 
application window menu. Progress at least!


I seem to also be restricted to a single column with SET_AP, I can live 
with that.



Cheers,
Norm.

--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Norman Dunbar]

The Easy PEasy example EX1_asm is an example of using SET_AP, this is 
good, but, when executed it calls WM_WRSET after calling SET_AP.


This breaks LibGen as it clears all text from all the various 
information windows that have user input displayed in them - the Sym 
File, Lib File and Bin File for example.


Info windows and loose items that have text objects are obvioulsy fine. 
The ones I use for user input get wiped out.


However, I'll have another look at SET_AP - now that I've got a working 
version of LibGen that doesn't trash QPC when it is run! :-)



Cheers,
Norm.

--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Norman Dunbar]

Hi George,

On 19/04/15 14:04, gdgqler wrote:



On 18 Apr 2015, at 19:49, Norman Dunbar  wrote:

does anyone have any decent examples of setting up a Window, with one 
application sub-window that doesn't have a menu, and then dynamically building 
a menu into the afore mentioned sub-window.


I thought that SET_AP in Easy_Peasy did just that.


I thought SET_AP was used to set up the menu items statically? What I 
need for LibGen is a blank application window until such time as the 
user has selected the sym_lst file to load, then I count the offsets to 
code routines and then create the menu with the items etc.



Cheers,
Norm.

--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[gdgqler]

> On 18 Apr 2015, at 19:49, Norman Dunbar  wrote:
> 
> does anyone have any decent examples of setting up a Window, with one 
> application sub-window that doesn't have a menu, and then dynamically 
> building a menu into the afore mentioned sub-window.

I thought that SET_AP in Easy_Peasy did just that.

George
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Tobias Fröschle]

Norman,

…and another one. I just remembered when I started doing this stuff in 
assembler, I used the (C!)-routines that came with EasyC (available at 
Dillwyn’s) from the master himself as a starting point. The example there shows 
how a menu in an application sub window is dynamically set up in the working 
definition. The code goes in easy understandable steps, nicely commented and is 
nice to follow as it is C and comes with an explanatory document (in the EG 
sub-directory).

Tobias


> Am 19.04.2015 um 11:06 schrieb Tobias Fröschle :
> 
> Norman,
> 
> this is the best I could possible come up with so far (can’t find my own code 
> anymore…)
> 
> These are routines Easysource includes as app win menu handling code when you 
> generate an application without a fixed menu. They don’t, however, cover any 
> of the actual list allocation tasks.
> 
> Maybe they help a bit forward?
> 
> Tobias
> ;
> ;Universal application sub-window routines
> ;
> asw_setr
>move.l  a4,-(a7)
>jsr wm.smenu(a2)
>move.l  (a7)+,a3
>tst.l   d0
>bne.s   end_setr
>movem.l d3-d7/a1,-(a7)
>tst.l   $44(a3)
>bne.s   cal_ctrl
>tst.l   -$44(a3)
>beq.s   end_cal
>tst.l   $2c(a3)
>beq.s   end_cal
>lea awb_draw,a1
>move.l  a1,-$50(a3)
>clr.l   -$4c(a3)
>lea awb_ctrl,a1
>move.l  a1,-$48(a3)
> cal_ctrl
>move.w  $04(a3),d3
>add.w   d3,d3
>addq.w  #4,d3
>move.l  -$1e(a3),d0
>beq.s   pan_ctrl
>move.l  $38(a3),d7
>addq.l  #2,a3
>bsr.s   set_ctrl
>subq.l  #2,a3
> pan_ctrl
>move.l  -$3c(a3),d0
>beq.s   end_cal
>add.w   d3,d3
>move.l  $34(a3),d7
>bsr.s   set_ctrl
> end_cal
>movem.l (a7)+,d3-d7/a1
>moveq   #0,d0
> end_setr
>rts
> set_ctrl
>move.l  d0,a1
>move.w  #1,(a1)+
>clr.l   (a1)+
>move.w  -$64(a3),d0
>sub.w   $30(a3),d0
>sub.w   d3,d0
>move.w  $2c(a3),d4
>ble.s   end_setr
>subq.w  #1,d4
>moveq   #-1,d5
>tst.l   d7
>bgt.s   spac_lst
> cnt_spc
>addq.w  #1,d5
>add.w   d7,d0
>dbltd4,cnt_spc
>bra.s   set_siz
> spac_lst
>move.l  d7,a2
> cnt_spl
>addq.l  #2,a2
>addq.w  #1,d5
>sub.w   (a2)+,d0
>dbltd4,cnt_spl
> set_siz
>move.w  d5,(a1)
>rts
> awm_hitr
>jmp  $34(a2)
> awm_draw
>jsr  $20(a2)
> awb_draw
>jmp  $24(a2)
> awm_ctrl
>jmp  $38(a2)
> awb_ctrl
>subi.w  #$0a,d4
>beq.s   pan_bl
>move.l  $46(a3),d0
>bra.s   ctrl_bl
> pan_bl
>move.l  $28(a3),d0
> ctrl_bl
>beq.s   end_ctrl
>move.l  d0,a1
>add.w   d4,d4
>adda.w  d4,a3
>swapd3
>mulu$90(a3),d3
>divu(a3),d3
>move.w  d3,4(a1)
>suba.w  d4,a3
>jsr $24(a2)
> end_ctrl
>moveq   #0,d4
>rts
> 
>> Am 18.04.2015 um 20:49 schrieb Norman Dunbar :
>> 
>> And, sorry, I forgot,
>> 
>> does anyone have any decent examples of setting up a Window, with one 
>> application sub-window that doesn't have a menu, and then dynamically 
>> building a menu into the afore mentioned sub-window.
>> 
>> I'm sure it can be done, I'm thinking MAWDRAW from EasyMenu as an example.
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Norm.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Norman Dunbar
>> Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd
>> 
>> Registered address:
>> 27a Lidget Hill
>> Pudsey
>> West Yorkshire
>> United Kingdom
>> LS28 7LG
>> 
>> Company Number: 05132767
>> ___
>> QL-Users Mailing List
>> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
> 
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Tobias Fröschle]

Norman,

this is the best I could possible come up with so far (can’t find my own code 
anymore…)

These are routines Easysource includes as app win menu handling code when you 
generate an application without a fixed menu. They don’t, however, cover any of 
the actual list allocation tasks.

Maybe they help a bit forward?

Tobias
;
;Universal application sub-window routines
;
asw_setr
move.l  a4,-(a7)
jsr wm.smenu(a2)
move.l  (a7)+,a3
tst.l   d0
bne.s   end_setr
movem.l d3-d7/a1,-(a7)
tst.l   $44(a3)
bne.s   cal_ctrl
tst.l   -$44(a3)
beq.s   end_cal
tst.l   $2c(a3)
beq.s   end_cal
lea awb_draw,a1
move.l  a1,-$50(a3)
clr.l   -$4c(a3)
lea awb_ctrl,a1
move.l  a1,-$48(a3)
cal_ctrl
move.w  $04(a3),d3
add.w   d3,d3
addq.w  #4,d3
move.l  -$1e(a3),d0
beq.s   pan_ctrl
move.l  $38(a3),d7
addq.l  #2,a3
bsr.s   set_ctrl
subq.l  #2,a3
pan_ctrl
move.l  -$3c(a3),d0
beq.s   end_cal
add.w   d3,d3
move.l  $34(a3),d7
bsr.s   set_ctrl
end_cal
movem.l (a7)+,d3-d7/a1
moveq   #0,d0
end_setr
rts
set_ctrl
move.l  d0,a1
move.w  #1,(a1)+
clr.l   (a1)+
move.w  -$64(a3),d0
sub.w   $30(a3),d0
sub.w   d3,d0
move.w  $2c(a3),d4
ble.s   end_setr
subq.w  #1,d4
moveq   #-1,d5
tst.l   d7
bgt.s   spac_lst
cnt_spc
addq.w  #1,d5
add.w   d7,d0
dbltd4,cnt_spc
bra.s   set_siz
spac_lst
move.l  d7,a2
cnt_spl
addq.l  #2,a2
addq.w  #1,d5
sub.w   (a2)+,d0
dbltd4,cnt_spl
set_siz
move.w  d5,(a1)
rts
awm_hitr
jmp  $34(a2)
awm_draw
jsr  $20(a2)
awb_draw
jmp  $24(a2)
awm_ctrl
jmp  $38(a2)
awb_ctrl
subi.w  #$0a,d4
beq.s   pan_bl
move.l  $46(a3),d0
bra.s   ctrl_bl
pan_bl
move.l  $28(a3),d0
ctrl_bl
beq.s   end_ctrl
move.l  d0,a1
add.w   d4,d4
adda.w  d4,a3
swapd3
mulu$90(a3),d3
divu(a3),d3
move.w  d3,4(a1)
suba.w  d4,a3
jsr $24(a2)
end_ctrl
moveq   #0,d4
rts

> Am 18.04.2015 um 20:49 schrieb Norman Dunbar :
> 
> And, sorry, I forgot,
> 
> does anyone have any decent examples of setting up a Window, with one 
> application sub-window that doesn't have a menu, and then dynamically 
> building a menu into the afore mentioned sub-window.
> 
> I'm sure it can be done, I'm thinking MAWDRAW from EasyMenu as an example.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Norm.
> 
> -- 
> Norman Dunbar
> Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd
> 
> Registered address:
> 27a Lidget Hill
> Pudsey
> West Yorkshire
> United Kingdom
> LS28 7LG
> 
> Company Number: 05132767
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Norman Dunbar]

On 19 April 2015 08:38:29 BST, "Tobias Fröschle"  
wrote:
>Norman,
>
>it probably was a „If we can’t get them all, we probably shouldn’t even
>start looking for them“-decision.
>
>Potential of lurking errors in window definitions is immense and a full
>check of the definition in WM_SETUP is maybe a bit ambitious. 
>
>After all, the Tebby team used the QPTR macros that do quite a bit of
>sanity check during the compile of a definition (I don’t use them
>either). Maybe they considered the whole thing part of the program that
>doesn’t need checking by the application ;)
>
>Tobias
>
>
>> Am 18.04.2015 um 20:44 schrieb Norman Dunbar
>:
>> 
>> Evening all,
>> 
>> I've spent some free time today examining a problem I've been having
>for some time. LibGen (anyone remember that?) when executed displays
>the window on screen and works fine until I exit from the program. At
>that point, QPC no longer is able to receive the cursor - it passes
>behind the QPC window as opposed to over the top of it.
>> 
>> I should point out that QPC 4.0 is running on Mint Linux 17.1, 64
>bit, under Wine.
>> 
>> I know what the problem is, I created the window for LibGen without
>an application sub-window menu, so I simply added one in manually, but
>I screwed up! I think the major fault was defining the pointer to the
>menu items status block to be zero when obviously, that means it's the
>same status area as the entire Window's status area. There may well
>have been other problems!
>> 
>> I've rolled back my changes and the code works fine, and when I ESC,
>QPC stays usable. Hooray. So, WM_SETUP returns no errors, ever. It's
>says so in the documentation. Does anyone have any clues as to why this
>should be?
>> 
>> It's (obviously) clear that errors should occur in WM_SETUP when
>someone like me does something stupid. Even after all these years, I
>still find bits appear to be missing from the docs. Pan/Scroll control
>block definitions, for example, where are they in the Window Definition
>docs? Nowhere (that I can find anyway) although there is mention of
>them in the Window Working Definition docs.
>> 
>> I haven't looked at the code, nor am I requesting/demanding/hinting
>that someone should do something about it. I'm just wondering why this
>quite important feature of WMAN should care so little about the correct
>setup of the window definition data.
>> 
>> End of eRant! ;-)
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Norm.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Norman Dunbar
>> Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd
>> 
>> Registered address:
>> 27a Lidget Hill
>> Pudsey
>> West Yorkshire
>> United Kingdom
>> LS28 7LG
>> 
>> Company Number: 05132767
>> ___
>> QL-Users Mailing List
>> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
>
>___
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Morning  Tobias, 

I expect Tony Tebby must have assumed that everyone would use his macros. I bet 
he never even considered that WM_SETUP could crash an emulator when he wrote it 
either!

Given that different bits of a PE program setup use different macros though, I 
doubt that there's really a whole lot of sanity checking that could be done.

Personally I would have made each chunk of PE structures take a signature word 
at the start to identify them as a window definition, a loose item, etc. That 
would help. Maybe.

Cheers, 
Norm.  
-- 
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"auto corrections" that are just wrong!
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Tobias Fröschle]

Norman,

it probably was a „If we can’t get them all, we probably shouldn’t even start 
looking for them“-decision.

Potential of lurking errors in window definitions is immense and a full check 
of the definition in WM_SETUP is maybe a bit ambitious. 

After all, the Tebby team used the QPTR macros that do quite a bit of sanity 
check during the compile of a definition (I don’t use them either). Maybe they 
considered the whole thing part of the program that doesn’t need checking by 
the application ;)

Tobias


> Am 18.04.2015 um 20:44 schrieb Norman Dunbar :
> 
> Evening all,
> 
> I've spent some free time today examining a problem I've been having for some 
> time. LibGen (anyone remember that?) when executed displays the window on 
> screen and works fine until I exit from the program. At that point, QPC no 
> longer is able to receive the cursor - it passes behind the QPC window as 
> opposed to over the top of it.
> 
> I should point out that QPC 4.0 is running on Mint Linux 17.1, 64 bit, under 
> Wine.
> 
> I know what the problem is, I created the window for LibGen without an 
> application sub-window menu, so I simply added one in manually, but I screwed 
> up! I think the major fault was defining the pointer to the menu items status 
> block to be zero when obviously, that means it's the same status area as the 
> entire Window's status area. There may well have been other problems!
> 
> I've rolled back my changes and the code works fine, and when I ESC, QPC 
> stays usable. Hooray. So, WM_SETUP returns no errors, ever. It's says so in 
> the documentation. Does anyone have any clues as to why this should be?
> 
> It's (obviously) clear that errors should occur in WM_SETUP when someone like 
> me does something stupid. Even after all these years, I still find bits 
> appear to be missing from the docs. Pan/Scroll control block definitions, for 
> example, where are they in the Window Definition docs? Nowhere (that I can 
> find anyway) although there is mention of them in the Window Working 
> Definition docs.
> 
> I haven't looked at the code, nor am I requesting/demanding/hinting that 
> someone should do something about it. I'm just wondering why this quite 
> important feature of WMAN should care so little about the correct setup of 
> the window definition data.
> 
> End of eRant! ;-)
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Norm.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Norman Dunbar
> Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd
> 
> Registered address:
> 27a Lidget Hill
> Pudsey
> West Yorkshire
> United Kingdom
> LS28 7LG
> 
> Company Number: 05132767
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Norman Dunbar]

On 19 April 2015 06:53:02 BST, Wolfgang Lenerz  wrote:
>Hi Norman
>
>I 'll have a look at your points, but won't be able to reply for a few 
>days at least.
>
>WOlfgan
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Thanks Wolfgang. 
-- 
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"auto corrections" that are just wrong!
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Wolfgang Lenerz]

Hi Norman

I 'll have a look at your points, but won't be able to reply for a few 
days at least.


WOlfgan
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Norman Dunbar]

And, sorry, I forgot,

does anyone have any decent examples of setting up a Window, with one 
application sub-window that doesn't have a menu, and then dynamically 
building a menu into the afore mentioned sub-window.


I'm sure it can be done, I'm thinking MAWDRAW from EasyMenu as an example.


Cheers,
Norm.

--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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[Ql-Users] Why does WM_SETUP - never return an error?

[Norman Dunbar]

Evening all,

I've spent some free time today examining a problem I've been having for 
some time. LibGen (anyone remember that?) when executed displays the 
window on screen and works fine until I exit from the program. At that 
point, QPC no longer is able to receive the cursor - it passes behind 
the QPC window as opposed to over the top of it.


I should point out that QPC 4.0 is running on Mint Linux 17.1, 64 bit, 
under Wine.


I know what the problem is, I created the window for LibGen without an 
application sub-window menu, so I simply added one in manually, but I 
screwed up! I think the major fault was defining the pointer to the menu 
items status block to be zero when obviously, that means it's the same 
status area as the entire Window's status area. There may well have been 
other problems!


I've rolled back my changes and the code works fine, and when I ESC, QPC 
stays usable. Hooray. So, WM_SETUP returns no errors, ever. It's says so 
in the documentation. Does anyone have any clues as to why this should be?


It's (obviously) clear that errors should occur in WM_SETUP when someone 
like me does something stupid. Even after all these years, I still find 
bits appear to be missing from the docs. Pan/Scroll control block 
definitions, for example, where are they in the Window Definition docs? 
Nowhere (that I can find anyway) although there is mention of them in 
the Window Working Definition docs.


I haven't looked at the code, nor am I requesting/demanding/hinting that 
someone should do something about it. I'm just wondering why this quite 
important feature of WMAN should care so little about the correct setup 
of the window definition data.


End of eRant! ;-)


Cheers,
Norm.


--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd

Registered address:
27a Lidget Hill
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7LG

Company Number: 05132767
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Dave Park]

On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Rich Mellor wrote:

> My preference for a venue would be somewhere local to me - but I have been
> unable to find anything suitable that would offer interest to the families
> of those that attend.  Camrbidge is not exactly handy for me - but at least
> the venue costs are a lot cheaper than elsewhere, and they have all sorts
> of retro computers and games consoles for families to have a go on!
>

My preference is that the event be held local to me. However, since that is
in Austin, TX, which is the party capital of the South, people might
actually attend - if just for the sunny weather and 6th Street ;)

-- 
Dave Park
Sandy Electronics, LLC
d...@sinclairql.com
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Geoff Wicks]

So the questions which arise are:

a) What would people wish to see at such an event
b) What would be the deciding factor on whether people would want to 
attend
c) Should the event be organised and run by Quanta, or do people think 
it would be better to have a wider Sinclair event at which Quanta 
would be represented?

d) Is anyone willing to help organise such an event?
e) Where should it be held (and yes, that means people living south of 
the M25 must expect to travel north of London !) unless you are going 
to organise the event.


Good questions and I have been thinking on much the same lines. In fact 
I am working on an idea of a exercise to be posted on this list to test 
whether people have any ideas or whether there really is interest,


Best Wishes,



Geoff
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Rich Mellor]

On 24/10/2013 13:43, Geoff Wicks wrote:

On 24/10/2013 11:48, Rich Mellor wrote:

On 24/10/2013 08:11, Dave Park wrote:

It sounds like Rich is making a proposition that Quanta should at least
investigate, without individuals shooting it down in flames. One 
thing it

does is give Quanta access to a lot of Sinclair fans who aren't QLers -
which is the best form of advertising for the QL there is.

imvvho

Dave

I don't think that Geoff was trying to shoot the proposal down in 
flames - I just don't think he probably quite understood the proposal.


I understand that the Chairman of Quanta is currently away and 
hopefully we can get some comments from Quanta next week



Let's not confuse two entirely separate things.

When I write I am writing purely about whether or not Quanta will 
celebrate 30 QL years. What Rich does is between him and Quanta. You 
cannot hold a Quanta QLis30 event if only two members of Quanta have 
to attend.





True,  but I also think that you cannot hold a Quanta QLis30 event with 
just the committee members and 5 other QLers (as is has been the case 
with the past 2 AGMs).


The QL is 30 needs to be a celebratory event not just for current QL 
owners, but for anyone who wants to know what the QL was and is


A one day event is unlikely to attract anyone from abroad and if it is 
just a Quanta event, promoted to existing Quanta members and those on 
the forum / mailing list, then it is hardly likely to attract other 
retro computer users.


I think that the reality is that if left to the Quanta committee, it 
would remain a 2 day workshop and AGM in Manchester - because it is 
easier for them to justify the costs (no accommodation or travelling 
costs except for 2 committee members) and only a small donation to the 
Scout association, plus it is what they are used to organising and doing.


Unfortunately, previous events suggest that this is not going to be 
worthwhile - many of the existing Quanta members are happy to sit back 
and let the committee decide what to do - and if nothing happens then 
the members will say 'oh what a shame' but wouldn't have attended anyway.


There are plenty of people on this mailing list and on the QL Forums who 
are not members of Quanta, but out of them all, there are probably only 
a handful of people asking for a QL is 30 event and even less who would 
turn up.


That said, I am not going to arrange a QL is 30, or any other Sinclair 
focussed event on my own - I need help.


So the questions which arise are:

a) What would people wish to see at such an event
b) What would be the deciding factor on whether people would want to attend
c) Should the event be organised and run by Quanta, or do people think 
it would be better to have a wider Sinclair event at which Quanta would 
be represented?

d) Is anyone willing to help organise such an event?
e) Where should it be held (and yes, that means people living south of 
the M25 must expect to travel north of London !) unless you are going to 
organise the event.


My preference for a venue would be somewhere local to me - but I have 
been unable to find anything suitable that would offer interest to the 
families of those that attend.  Camrbidge is not exactly handy for me - 
but at least the venue costs are a lot cheaper than elsewhere, and they 
have all sorts of retro computers and games consoles for families to 
have a go on!


Geoff and Urs - we know your thoughts already!


--
Rich Mellor
RWAP Services
Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services

www.rwapservices.co.uk


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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Geoff Wicks]

On 24/10/2013 11:48, Rich Mellor wrote:

On 24/10/2013 08:11, Dave Park wrote:

It sounds like Rich is making a proposition that Quanta should at least
investigate, without individuals shooting it down in flames. One 
thing it

does is give Quanta access to a lot of Sinclair fans who aren't QLers -
which is the best form of advertising for the QL there is.

imvvho

Dave



I don't think that Geoff was trying to shoot the proposal down in 
flames - I just don't think he probably quite understood the proposal.


I understand that the Chairman of Quanta is currently away and 
hopefully we can get some comments from Quanta next week



Let's not confuse two entirely separate things.

When I write I am writing purely about whether or not Quanta will 
celebrate 30 QL years. What Rich does is between him and Quanta. You 
cannot hold a Quanta QLis30 event if only two members of Quanta have to 
attend.


Best Wishes,


Geoff
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Rich Mellor]

On 24/10/2013 08:11, Dave Park wrote:

It sounds like Rich is making a proposition that Quanta should at least
investigate, without individuals shooting it down in flames. One thing it
does is give Quanta access to a lot of Sinclair fans who aren't QLers -
which is the best form of advertising for the QL there is.

imvvho

Dave



I don't think that Geoff was trying to shoot the proposal down in flames 
- I just don't think he probably quite understood the proposal.


I understand that the Chairman of Quanta is currently away and hopefully 
we can get some comments from Quanta next week


--
Rich Mellor
RWAP Services
Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services

www.rwapservices.co.uk


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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Dave Park]

It sounds like Rich is making a proposition that Quanta should at least
investigate, without individuals shooting it down in flames. One thing it
does is give Quanta access to a lot of Sinclair fans who aren't QLers -
which is the best form of advertising for the QL there is.

imvvho

Dave


On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services <
r...@rwapservices.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, October 23, 2013 5:22 pm, Geoff Wicks wrote:
> > On 22/10/2013 22:21, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services wrote:
> >>> Thanks for the additional information. Pity I did not know this before.
> >>>
> >>> What puzzles me is why Sarah wrote in the April/May magazine as if it
> >>> was almost a done deal and then they backtrack in Oct/Nov. Surely they
> >>> should have realised what the costs were in  April.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately Sarah often makes statements in the magazine that she
> >>> never delivers. This has happened too often over the website. I gave
> >>> Quanta very favourable coverage in QL Today only to find I had been
> >>> duped. That's why I have been so hard on Quanta's web failings more
> >>> recently,
> >>>
> >> I thought I had put this in my original suggestion - I never suggested
> >> that Quanta fund the whole event.
> >>
> >> In April / May, so far as I know, the Quanta committee had not
> >> investigated any options for holding the event at all.  I had made the
> >> suggestion that they look at an event at Snibston in April 2014 (not
> >> Cambridge) as part of the Leicester based retro computer museum's
> >> vintage
> >> gaming weekend (which was building on the one they held there this year)
> >> -
> >> which the committee seemed to be in favour of.
> >>
> >> However, when I contacted Snibston, they were struggling to offer a
> >> small
> >> room for a committee meeting / AGM.  Talks could be held in the lecture
> >> theatre but the cost came back as £1500-£2000 for the day !!
> >>
> >> I then made a few enquiries to try and find a venue which could offer a
> >> larger room for traders and a workshop - but even then, I was thinking
> >> of
> >> an all Sinclair event to help cover the costs.  However, every venue I
> >> tried could either not offer anything, or were asking silly money.
> >>
> >> My last attempt was to try the computer museum at Cambridge, which
> >> initially seemed not to be ideal, as it is a bit out of the way, on an
> >> industrial estate with what appears to be limited parking - however, the
> >> museum have converted their large empty space into two rooms - one of
> >> which is a classroom, the other the main display hall, and said that on
> >> a
> >> weekend the courtyard outside is empty offering around 40 parking
> >> spaces.
> >>
> >> A Holiday Inn has just opened over the road from them, and they
> >> eventually
> >> came back with confirmation that the bus routes could drop people 5
> >> minutes walk away.  They also offered the cut price of £1000 for the
> >> weekend on the basis that the museum could stay open to the public
> >> still.
> >>
> >> The latter makes a ticketed event a little awkward unless you can cordon
> >> off part of the main hall.
> >>
> >> However that seemed about the best I could find
> >>
> > Thanks again for the extra information. However it does not change the
> > point I was making. Quanta has organised enough two day events to
> > realise that they cost a minimum of £2,000. Usually you have to reckon
> > on paying £1,000 for the venue and then you have additional costs.
> >
> > QLis21 had  £2,196 in additional costs but there was a lot of
> > irresponsible expenditure - AA signposting, beads to the natives (Phone
> > trees) and the notorious "I am a Q--er" T shirts. Total cost £928. In
> > other words essential additional costs £1,268.
> >
> > QLis25 is difficult to quantify as they have put other silver jubilee
> > costs in the account. The total show costs were well over £2,000.
> >
> > Sarah wrote in the April/May magazine "we hope to provide an interesting
> > weekend". It was clear they were thinking of a two day show which would
> > have involved substantial hotel costs, particularly as in Oct/Nov she
> > named the two potential venues as Cambridge and Bletchley Park. They
> > should have known in April that there would be costs of over £2,000.
> > Then why the backtracking in Oct/Nov?
> >
> > Quanta should have sat down in April and asked the question "What is the
> > maximum we can budget for a QLis30 celebration?" I think they would have
> > come out at a figure of about £1,000. Then you brainstorm about what is
> > possible and what is not possible for £1,000. Clearly it would have to
> > have been a 1 day event,
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > QL-Users Mailing List
> > http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
> >
>
>
> I am sorry - but what other expenses would be involved from a Quanta point
> of view for my proposal?
>
> £10-£15 per Quanta

Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services]

On Wed, October 23, 2013 5:22 pm, Geoff Wicks wrote:
> On 22/10/2013 22:21, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services wrote:
>>> Thanks for the additional information. Pity I did not know this before.
>>>
>>> What puzzles me is why Sarah wrote in the April/May magazine as if it
>>> was almost a done deal and then they backtrack in Oct/Nov. Surely they
>>> should have realised what the costs were in  April.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately Sarah often makes statements in the magazine that she
>>> never delivers. This has happened too often over the website. I gave
>>> Quanta very favourable coverage in QL Today only to find I had been
>>> duped. That's why I have been so hard on Quanta's web failings more
>>> recently,
>>>
>> I thought I had put this in my original suggestion - I never suggested
>> that Quanta fund the whole event.
>>
>> In April / May, so far as I know, the Quanta committee had not
>> investigated any options for holding the event at all.  I had made the
>> suggestion that they look at an event at Snibston in April 2014 (not
>> Cambridge) as part of the Leicester based retro computer museum's
>> vintage
>> gaming weekend (which was building on the one they held there this year)
>> -
>> which the committee seemed to be in favour of.
>>
>> However, when I contacted Snibston, they were struggling to offer a
>> small
>> room for a committee meeting / AGM.  Talks could be held in the lecture
>> theatre but the cost came back as £1500-£2000 for the day !!
>>
>> I then made a few enquiries to try and find a venue which could offer a
>> larger room for traders and a workshop - but even then, I was thinking
>> of
>> an all Sinclair event to help cover the costs.  However, every venue I
>> tried could either not offer anything, or were asking silly money.
>>
>> My last attempt was to try the computer museum at Cambridge, which
>> initially seemed not to be ideal, as it is a bit out of the way, on an
>> industrial estate with what appears to be limited parking - however, the
>> museum have converted their large empty space into two rooms - one of
>> which is a classroom, the other the main display hall, and said that on
>> a
>> weekend the courtyard outside is empty offering around 40 parking
>> spaces.
>>
>> A Holiday Inn has just opened over the road from them, and they
>> eventually
>> came back with confirmation that the bus routes could drop people 5
>> minutes walk away.  They also offered the cut price of £1000 for the
>> weekend on the basis that the museum could stay open to the public
>> still.
>>
>> The latter makes a ticketed event a little awkward unless you can cordon
>> off part of the main hall.
>>
>> However that seemed about the best I could find
>>
> Thanks again for the extra information. However it does not change the
> point I was making. Quanta has organised enough two day events to
> realise that they cost a minimum of £2,000. Usually you have to reckon
> on paying £1,000 for the venue and then you have additional costs.
>
> QLis21 had  £2,196 in additional costs but there was a lot of
> irresponsible expenditure - AA signposting, beads to the natives (Phone
> trees) and the notorious "I am a Q--er" T shirts. Total cost £928. In
> other words essential additional costs £1,268.
>
> QLis25 is difficult to quantify as they have put other silver jubilee
> costs in the account. The total show costs were well over £2,000.
>
> Sarah wrote in the April/May magazine "we hope to provide an interesting
> weekend". It was clear they were thinking of a two day show which would
> have involved substantial hotel costs, particularly as in Oct/Nov she
> named the two potential venues as Cambridge and Bletchley Park. They
> should have known in April that there would be costs of over £2,000.
> Then why the backtracking in Oct/Nov?
>
> Quanta should have sat down in April and asked the question "What is the
> maximum we can budget for a QLis30 celebration?" I think they would have
> come out at a figure of about £1,000. Then you brainstorm about what is
> possible and what is not possible for £1,000. Clearly it would have to
> have been a 1 day event,
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Geoff
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> QL-Users Mailing List
> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
>


I am sorry - but what other expenses would be involved from a Quanta point
of view for my proposal?

£10-£15 per Quanta member who attends
Presumably only 2 Quanta committee members are required to attend the
celebration event, to promote Quanta.  So there would be accommodation and
travel costs for them - they could care share from Manchester if they came
from the pool of committee members up there.
A few printed magazines to hand out on the day.

If other Quanta commitee members wanted to attend, then they could do so,
but at their own expense.  As there would be no AGM or Quanta meeting at
the event, there is no need for all the committee to be there.

What other costs are you thinking about for the 2

Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Geoff Wicks]

On 22/10/2013 22:21, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services wrote:

Thanks for the additional information. Pity I did not know this before.

What puzzles me is why Sarah wrote in the April/May magazine as if it
was almost a done deal and then they backtrack in Oct/Nov. Surely they
should have realised what the costs were in  April.

Unfortunately Sarah often makes statements in the magazine that she
never delivers. This has happened too often over the website. I gave
Quanta very favourable coverage in QL Today only to find I had been
duped. That's why I have been so hard on Quanta's web failings more
recently,


I thought I had put this in my original suggestion - I never suggested
that Quanta fund the whole event.

In April / May, so far as I know, the Quanta committee had not
investigated any options for holding the event at all.  I had made the
suggestion that they look at an event at Snibston in April 2014 (not
Cambridge) as part of the Leicester based retro computer museum's vintage
gaming weekend (which was building on the one they held there this year) -
which the committee seemed to be in favour of.

However, when I contacted Snibston, they were struggling to offer a small
room for a committee meeting / AGM.  Talks could be held in the lecture
theatre but the cost came back as £1500-£2000 for the day !!

I then made a few enquiries to try and find a venue which could offer a
larger room for traders and a workshop - but even then, I was thinking of
an all Sinclair event to help cover the costs.  However, every venue I
tried could either not offer anything, or were asking silly money.

My last attempt was to try the computer museum at Cambridge, which
initially seemed not to be ideal, as it is a bit out of the way, on an
industrial estate with what appears to be limited parking - however, the
museum have converted their large empty space into two rooms - one of
which is a classroom, the other the main display hall, and said that on a
weekend the courtyard outside is empty offering around 40 parking spaces.

A Holiday Inn has just opened over the road from them, and they eventually
came back with confirmation that the bus routes could drop people 5
minutes walk away.  They also offered the cut price of £1000 for the
weekend on the basis that the museum could stay open to the public still.

The latter makes a ticketed event a little awkward unless you can cordon
off part of the main hall.

However that seemed about the best I could find

Thanks again for the extra information. However it does not change the 
point I was making. Quanta has organised enough two day events to 
realise that they cost a minimum of £2,000. Usually you have to reckon 
on paying £1,000 for the venue and then you have additional costs.


QLis21 had  £2,196 in additional costs but there was a lot of 
irresponsible expenditure - AA signposting, beads to the natives (Phone 
trees) and the notorious "I am a Q--er" T shirts. Total cost £928. In 
other words essential additional costs £1,268.


QLis25 is difficult to quantify as they have put other silver jubilee 
costs in the account. The total show costs were well over £2,000.


Sarah wrote in the April/May magazine "we hope to provide an interesting 
weekend". It was clear they were thinking of a two day show which would  
have involved substantial hotel costs, particularly as in Oct/Nov she 
named the two potential venues as Cambridge and Bletchley Park. They 
should have known in April that there would be costs of over £2,000. 
Then why the backtracking in Oct/Nov?


Quanta should have sat down in April and asked the question "What is the 
maximum we can budget for a QLis30 celebration?" I think they would have 
come out at a figure of about £1,000. Then you brainstorm about what is 
possible and what is not possible for £1,000. Clearly it would have to 
have been a 1 day event,


Best wishes,


Geoff





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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services]

On Tue, October 22, 2013 7:51 pm, Geoff Wicks wrote:
> On 21/10/2013 21:13, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services wrote:
>> On Mon, October 21, 2013 12:59 pm, Geoff Wicks wrote:
>>> I have considered Rich's proposal carefully and I like it, but sorry
>>> Rich, you have not produced for me a business case. I have no idea from
>>> what you write how much the show would cost Quanta. If you want this
>>> show to go ahead you really need to do  more homework. I need to know
>>> who the partners will be, how reliable they are, and what the relative
>>> costs would be for Quanta. I need to know an estimate of attendance
>>> and,
>>> given that there was a loss on the last occasion, what you anticipate
>>> the loss to be. I also need to know more than just the venue costs. As
>>> Sarah has pointed out there are many other costs to a show. Venue costs
>>> represented about a third of the total costs of QLis21 and about a half
>>> of the costs of QLis25.
>>>
>> I am not sure where the issue with this comes from...
>>
>> The idea is that the event to be held in Cambridge would be run and
>> financed by me (although I would need some help).
>>
>> I don't think that it would be hard to get 100 people from all of the
>> Sinclair world to come along to the event for the weekend, or one day -
>> the Spectrum is 30 show tickets cost £25-£30 from memory, and they got
>> over 200 visitors over the weekend.
>>
>> I was thinking charge £15 per visitor, paying £1000 for the venue, that
>> leaves £500 buffer to cover my (and any co-organiser's attendance
>> costs).
>>
>> Cost to Quanta?  They would just pay £15 for each Quanta member who
>> turned
>> up - so it depends on how many Quanta members turn up...  Quanta members
>> would get free entry, so maybe some QLers may decide to sign up to
>> Quanta
>> and get the free ticket.  They could even do it as a discounted ticket -
>> so Quanta members still paid £5 (say).
>>
>> Quanta would need a presence on the day, but that need only be 1 or 2
>> people - not the whole committee - as it is just not viable to get this
>> orgnised now in time for next year's AGM.
>>
>> The AGM could be held in Manchester - even virtually - in April at
>> minimal
>> cost.
>>
>> Rich
>> www.rwapsoftware.co.uk
>> www.sellmyretro.com
>>
>> ___
>> QL-Users Mailing List
>> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
>
> Thanks for the additional information. Pity I did not know this before.
>
> What puzzles me is why Sarah wrote in the April/May magazine as if it
> was almost a done deal and then they backtrack in Oct/Nov. Surely they
> should have realised what the costs were in  April.
>
> Unfortunately Sarah often makes statements in the magazine that she
> never delivers. This has happened too often over the website. I gave
> Quanta very favourable coverage in QL Today only to find I had been
> duped. That's why I have been so hard on Quanta's web failings more
> recently,
>

I thought I had put this in my original suggestion - I never suggested
that Quanta fund the whole event.

In April / May, so far as I know, the Quanta committee had not
investigated any options for holding the event at all.  I had made the
suggestion that they look at an event at Snibston in April 2014 (not
Cambridge) as part of the Leicester based retro computer museum's vintage
gaming weekend (which was building on the one they held there this year) -
which the committee seemed to be in favour of.

However, when I contacted Snibston, they were struggling to offer a small
room for a committee meeting / AGM.  Talks could be held in the lecture
theatre but the cost came back as £1500-£2000 for the day !!

I then made a few enquiries to try and find a venue which could offer a
larger room for traders and a workshop - but even then, I was thinking of
an all Sinclair event to help cover the costs.  However, every venue I
tried could either not offer anything, or were asking silly money.

My last attempt was to try the computer museum at Cambridge, which
initially seemed not to be ideal, as it is a bit out of the way, on an
industrial estate with what appears to be limited parking - however, the
museum have converted their large empty space into two rooms - one of
which is a classroom, the other the main display hall, and said that on a
weekend the courtyard outside is empty offering around 40 parking spaces.

A Holiday Inn has just opened over the road from them, and they eventually
came back with confirmation that the bus routes could drop people 5
minutes walk away.  They also offered the cut price of £1000 for the
weekend on the basis that the museum could stay open to the public still.

The latter makes a ticketed event a little awkward unless you can cordon
off part of the main hall.

However that seemed about the best I could find

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why not

[Lee Privett]

I will look into that
On 22 Oct 2013 19:43, "Geoff Wicks"  wrote:

> On 21/10/2013 23:42, Dave Park wrote:
>
>> Great! I hope that means I'll be able to "attend" the next one. :)
>>
>> How much will it cost to be set up to have a large number of skypers
>> present? :)
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
> Don't forget that you played an important role in this. I had raised a
> question about the Quanta quorum on this list. Rich made a comment about
> the possibility of electronic participation. You made a comment on what
> Rich had written and I then realised that we could put it into the Quanta
> constitution.
>
> So once again our thanks.
>
> INCIDENTALLY QUANTA it would be a good idea to have an article on how to
> participate by Skype in the Quanta Magazine early next year!
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Geoff
> __**_
> QL-Users Mailing List
> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/**smsqe.htm
>
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Geoff Wicks]

On 21/10/2013 21:13, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services wrote:

On Mon, October 21, 2013 12:59 pm, Geoff Wicks wrote:

I have considered Rich's proposal carefully and I like it, but sorry
Rich, you have not produced for me a business case. I have no idea from
what you write how much the show would cost Quanta. If you want this
show to go ahead you really need to do  more homework. I need to know
who the partners will be, how reliable they are, and what the relative
costs would be for Quanta. I need to know an estimate of attendance and,
given that there was a loss on the last occasion, what you anticipate
the loss to be. I also need to know more than just the venue costs. As
Sarah has pointed out there are many other costs to a show. Venue costs
represented about a third of the total costs of QLis21 and about a half
of the costs of QLis25.


I am not sure where the issue with this comes from...

The idea is that the event to be held in Cambridge would be run and
financed by me (although I would need some help).

I don't think that it would be hard to get 100 people from all of the
Sinclair world to come along to the event for the weekend, or one day -
the Spectrum is 30 show tickets cost £25-£30 from memory, and they got
over 200 visitors over the weekend.

I was thinking charge £15 per visitor, paying £1000 for the venue, that
leaves £500 buffer to cover my (and any co-organiser's attendance costs).

Cost to Quanta?  They would just pay £15 for each Quanta member who turned
up - so it depends on how many Quanta members turn up...  Quanta members
would get free entry, so maybe some QLers may decide to sign up to Quanta
and get the free ticket.  They could even do it as a discounted ticket -
so Quanta members still paid £5 (say).

Quanta would need a presence on the day, but that need only be 1 or 2
people - not the whole committee - as it is just not viable to get this
orgnised now in time for next year's AGM.

The AGM could be held in Manchester - even virtually - in April at minimal
cost.

Rich
www.rwapsoftware.co.uk
www.sellmyretro.com

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Thanks for the additional information. Pity I did not know this before.

What puzzles me is why Sarah wrote in the April/May magazine as if it 
was almost a done deal and then they backtrack in Oct/Nov. Surely they 
should have realised what the costs were in  April.


Unfortunately Sarah often makes statements in the magazine that she 
never delivers. This has happened too often over the website. I gave 
Quanta very favourable coverage in QL Today only to find I had been 
duped. That's why I have been so hard on Quanta's web failings more 
recently,


Best Wishes,


Geoff
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why not

[Geoff Wicks]

On 21/10/2013 23:42, Dave Park wrote:

Great! I hope that means I'll be able to "attend" the next one. :)

How much will it cost to be set up to have a large number of skypers
present? :)

Dave



Don't forget that you played an important role in this. I had raised a 
question about the Quanta quorum on this list. Rich made a comment about 
the possibility of electronic participation. You made a comment on what 
Rich had written and I then realised that we could put it into the 
Quanta constitution.


So once again our thanks.

INCIDENTALLY QUANTA it would be a good idea to have an article on how to 
participate by Skype in the Quanta Magazine early next year!


Best wishes,


Geoff
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why not

[Dave Park]

Great! I hope that means I'll be able to "attend" the next one. :)

How much will it cost to be set up to have a large number of skypers
present? :)

Dave


On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 5:21 PM, jms1  wrote:

> On 2013-10-21 20:34, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services wrote:
>
>> On Mon, October 21, 2013 7:46 pm, jms1 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> We live in the digital age and we are digital people. Cannot we use
>>> computers to solve the problem?
>>>
>>> After all should be possible to conduct an agm by email!
>>>
>>> All it requires is a flexible approach and careful rules so it is seem
>>> to be fair. OH and a change in the constitution to allow it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Geoff Wicks and I spent some considerable time in 2011 updating the Quanta
>> constitution to make it more modern, and indeed, committee meetings and
>> AGMs can now be conducted by telephone and via Skype.  Committee meetings
>> can also be conducted by email, but that is more difficult for an AGM
>> where feedback is required on each issue during the meeting.
>>
>> The new constitution was adopted in 2012
>>
>> I attended the AGM by Skype this year as I was unable to attend.
>>
>> Rich
>> www.rwapsoftware.co.uk
>> www.sellmyretro.com
>>
>> __**_
>> QL-Users Mailing List
>> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/**smsqe.htm
>>
>
> Pleased to hear it.
>
> It appears that you can conduct an agm by video conferencing
> __**_
> QL-Users Mailing List
> http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/**smsqe.htm
>



-- 
Dave Park
Sandy Electronics, LLC
d...@sinclairql.com
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why not

[jms1]

On 2013-10-21 20:34, Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services wrote:

On Mon, October 21, 2013 7:46 pm, jms1 wrote:


We live in the digital age and we are digital people. Cannot we use
computers to solve the problem?

After all should be possible to conduct an agm by email!

All it requires is a flexible approach and careful rules so it is 
seem

to be fair. OH and a change in the constitution to allow it.



Geoff Wicks and I spent some considerable time in 2011 updating the 
Quanta
constitution to make it more modern, and indeed, committee meetings 
and
AGMs can now be conducted by telephone and via Skype.  Committee 
meetings

can also be conducted by email, but that is more difficult for an AGM
where feedback is required on each issue during the meeting.

The new constitution was adopted in 2012

I attended the AGM by Skype this year as I was unable to attend.

Rich
www.rwapsoftware.co.uk
www.sellmyretro.com

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Pleased to hear it.

It appears that you can conduct an agm by video conferencing
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why not

[Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services]

On Mon, October 21, 2013 7:46 pm, jms1 wrote:
>
> We live in the digital age and we are digital people. Cannot we use
> computers to solve the problem?
>
> After all should be possible to conduct an agm by email!
>
> All it requires is a flexible approach and careful rules so it is seem
> to be fair. OH and a change in the constitution to allow it.


Geoff Wicks and I spent some considerable time in 2011 updating the Quanta
constitution to make it more modern, and indeed, committee meetings and
AGMs can now be conducted by telephone and via Skype.  Committee meetings
can also be conducted by email, but that is more difficult for an AGM
where feedback is required on each issue during the meeting.

The new constitution was adopted in 2012

I attended the AGM by Skype this year as I was unable to attend.

Rich
www.rwapsoftware.co.uk
www.sellmyretro.com

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services]

On Mon, October 21, 2013 12:59 pm, Geoff Wicks wrote:
>
> I have considered Rich's proposal carefully and I like it, but sorry
> Rich, you have not produced for me a business case. I have no idea from
> what you write how much the show would cost Quanta. If you want this
> show to go ahead you really need to do  more homework. I need to know
> who the partners will be, how reliable they are, and what the relative
> costs would be for Quanta. I need to know an estimate of attendance and,
> given that there was a loss on the last occasion, what you anticipate
> the loss to be. I also need to know more than just the venue costs. As
> Sarah has pointed out there are many other costs to a show. Venue costs
> represented about a third of the total costs of QLis21 and about a half
> of the costs of QLis25.
>

I am not sure where the issue with this comes from...

The idea is that the event to be held in Cambridge would be run and
financed by me (although I would need some help).

I don't think that it would be hard to get 100 people from all of the
Sinclair world to come along to the event for the weekend, or one day -
the Spectrum is 30 show tickets cost £25-£30 from memory, and they got
over 200 visitors over the weekend.

I was thinking charge £15 per visitor, paying £1000 for the venue, that
leaves £500 buffer to cover my (and any co-organiser's attendance costs).

Cost to Quanta?  They would just pay £15 for each Quanta member who turned
up - so it depends on how many Quanta members turn up...  Quanta members
would get free entry, so maybe some QLers may decide to sign up to Quanta
and get the free ticket.  They could even do it as a discounted ticket -
so Quanta members still paid £5 (say).

Quanta would need a presence on the day, but that need only be 1 or 2
people - not the whole committee - as it is just not viable to get this
orgnised now in time for next year's AGM.

The AGM could be held in Manchester - even virtually - in April at minimal
cost.

Rich
www.rwapsoftware.co.uk
www.sellmyretro.com

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why not

[jms1]

I think the problem is that travel and expense make a two or even a 
single day event expensive for the return.


How would you like the idea of holding the agm and workshop in 
Kirkcaldy?


I gave up Quanta because it did not seem to be a source of information 
I wanted, and the AGM did not seem to be value for money personally.


We live in the digital age and we are digital people. Cannot we use 
computers to solve the problem?


After all should be possible to conduct an agm by email!

All it requires is a flexible approach and careful rules so it is seem 
to be fair. OH and a change in the constitution to allow it.


Quanta has gone a little way by distributing the magazine by email.


Dilwyn's Site is a tremendous source information if you are QL savy. 
What about utube presentations on getting started with a retro QL, a 
raspberry pi and uqlx?


Even better a version of linux, which started up in Sbasic and or Qptr 
environment like QPC2demo. Even better the sdd could provide the same 
sort of programs and tools as Debian Weezy sdd does.


We could even try to persuade Pi world that it was included with the 
noobs version. With the raspberry pi we would get the sort exposure that 
the bbc computer gets now.


If Quanta took all of this on, used one of the websites with an 
attractive interface, paid for the cost of of the server etc. it could 
be a powerful influence again.


It is going to have embrace the philosophy of free software and give up 
any notion on financial income or interlectual property.


So are you going to think out of the box and rise to the challenge 
bring a whole new group into the QL world?




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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Lee Privett]

Speaking from myself and not as a representative committee member, the
recent annual events held by QUANTA has (as far as I am aware) contain
two separate entities. The first is a workshop normally held on a Saturday,
the Sunday set aside as primarily a discussion prior to the formalities of
the AGM held in the afternoon. This has been an efficient method to
incorporate both together. The added advantage has been that the workshop
(people do bring their QLs and other stuff for fixing) has carried over to
the second day and benefited from the expertise available. The downside is
that in the short time I have now attended these, the take up is poor on
either day/both, a few die-hards and that is all. It is not that anyone new
is not welcomed, they are.

QUANTA would still be required by constitution to hold an AGM although I
would agree about venues as being, smaller. I do not know what the
advantages regarding costs be, if any. With such member numbers, my
experience has shown apathy reigns supreme. A one-day event to me may be
not any more viable than a two day, others would need to comment further.

How well did the QL meeting fare that QL Today was advertising? What
benefits and insights can we gain from that experience to improve things
here?. Is there a better take up of such events on the continent? I had
intended to go and was looking forward to it especially the model village,
if not for personal circumstances preventing me, alas this is not a unique
situation. With regards to QLis30, I had already commented on this in 2011
in an article in the QUANTA magazine. I suspect that the cheaper option
should now always prevail as the risks and rewards have not paid any real
dividends thus far. Unless attendance for such events improves
significantly (and this in my opinion has to happen first), there is no
real advantage to hold them anywhere else.

As with most things I stand to be corrected and also welcome comments from
others.

Regards

Lee Privett




On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Geoff Wicks wrote:

> We need to inject some realism into this discussion  and that means
> looking in some detail at Quanta's finances.
>
> We have to stop thinking that Quanta has a huge pot of gold. Admittedly
> there is still some gold, but it is a very small pot.
>
> In practiced Quanta's finances are in a more serious condition than most
> members realise and there is no quick fix for the problems.
>
> Quanta has made a financial loss in 8 of the last 10 years and, on
> average, the loss works out at £700 per year. Almost £600 of that loss is
> down to the QLis21 and QLis25 events. In other words these shows have made
> a major contribution to Quanta's present financial trouble.
>
> Now consider income. On the last available membership figures we now have
> under 100 subscription paying members. On the basis of this figure I would
> predict a future annual income between £2,000 and £2,500, and probably
> nearer the lower value than the higher.
>
> A QLis30 event run on the lines of the previous two shows would cost more
> than Quanta's income in 2014. In the worst case scenario it would cost one
> and a half times the annual income.
>
> In those circumstances I would fully support John Gilpin when he says we
> cannot afford QLis30.
>
> Where I depart from Quanta is they have failed to look at alternative ways
> of running a 2014 event. In particular they have not looked at the
> possibility of a 1 day event. I have suggested that this could be done for
> £1,000. This is not a figure that I have just thought up for this
> discussion, but one that I reached a year ago and suggested in a QL Today
> editorial.
>
> Quanta's problems is that is still lives in the world when it had 2,000
> members and has the mentality that "what we have always done, we always
> have to do". It needs to start thinking simply and go back to first
> principles. Learn how to organise a no frills show. It is what happens at a
> show that is important and not the Quanta frippery.
>
> I would urge Quanta to go back to the drawing board and look at the
> possibility of a 1 day event.
>
> I have considered Rich's proposal carefully and I like it, but sorry Rich,
> you have not produced for me a business case. I have no idea from what you
> write how much the show would cost Quanta. If you want this show to go
> ahead you really need to do  more homework. I need to know who the partners
> will be, how reliable they are, and what the relative costs would be for
> Quanta. I need to know an estimate of attendance and, given that there was
> a loss on the last occasion, what you anticipate the loss to be. I also
> need to know more than just the venue costs. As Sarah has pointed out there
> are many other costs to a show. Venue costs represented about a third of
> the total costs of QLis21 and about a half of the costs of QLis25.
>
> Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion so far,
>
>
> Best Wishes,
>
>
> Geoff
> _

Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Geoff Wicks]

On 21/10/2013 15:35, Neil Riley wrote:

/lights blue touch paper

Just enough money in Quanta to go out with a big bang and not a slightly 
pathetic phut!

How about, invite all the Quanta members to a last hurrah, a weekend of 
celebrating the QL reaching 30, an achievement in itself seeing as it died a 
death twenty seven years ago at retail.   Enjoy your show, celebrate the QL's 
30th because as I see it, fast forward a few short years and the pot will 
naturally be almost empty and that'll be that, lights out.

So, £3000 should cover the basics for the party.

What's left in the pot, throw it at that last QL 'pacemaker', one which draws 
in interest from outside, a QL on a board, retrofitted into a QL case, able to 
run at QL speed, GC speed, SGC speed up to super speeds, use Kickstarter or 
whatever to raise cash. Just do it, what have you got to loose, well, apart 
from a slow lingering death for the QL that is.

Anyhow, clearly you shouldn't make me treasurer !!



On the contrary I think you would make a good treasurer and we are 
looking for one next year (;-)


Seriously I think it is not long before we have to consider winding up 
Quanta. I hope that follow QL Today's example - make a firm decision to 
close and then go out with a bang.


When we finally stick the knife into Quanta let's blow some of the 
capital with a bloody good wake!


Best Wishes,


Geoff
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Neil Riley]

/lights blue touch paper

Just enough money in Quanta to go out with a big bang and not a slightly 
pathetic phut!

How about, invite all the Quanta members to a last hurrah, a weekend of 
celebrating the QL reaching 30, an achievement in itself seeing as it died a 
death twenty seven years ago at retail.   Enjoy your show, celebrate the QL's 
30th because as I see it, fast forward a few short years and the pot will 
naturally be almost empty and that'll be that, lights out. 

So, £3000 should cover the basics for the party. 

What's left in the pot, throw it at that last QL 'pacemaker', one which draws 
in interest from outside, a QL on a board, retrofitted into a QL case, able to 
run at QL speed, GC speed, SGC speed up to super speeds, use Kickstarter or 
whatever to raise cash. Just do it, what have you got to loose, well, apart 
from a slow lingering death for the QL that is.

Anyhow, clearly you shouldn't make me treasurer !!

Neil




  



  


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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Geoff Wicks]

We need to inject some realism into this discussion  and that means 
looking in some detail at Quanta's finances.


We have to stop thinking that Quanta has a huge pot of gold. Admittedly 
there is still some gold, but it is a very small pot.


In practiced Quanta's finances are in a more serious condition than most 
members realise and there is no quick fix for the problems.


Quanta has made a financial loss in 8 of the last 10 years and, on 
average, the loss works out at £700 per year. Almost £600 of that loss 
is down to the QLis21 and QLis25 events. In other words these shows have 
made a major contribution to Quanta's present financial trouble.


Now consider income. On the last available membership figures we now 
have under 100 subscription paying members. On the basis of this figure 
I would predict a future annual income between £2,000 and £2,500, and 
probably nearer the lower value than the higher.


A QLis30 event run on the lines of the previous two shows would cost 
more than Quanta's income in 2014. In the worst case scenario it would 
cost one and a half times the annual income.


In those circumstances I would fully support John Gilpin when he says we 
cannot afford QLis30.


Where I depart from Quanta is they have failed to look at alternative 
ways of running a 2014 event. In particular they have not looked at the 
possibility of a 1 day event. I have suggested that this could be done 
for £1,000. This is not a figure that I have just thought up for this 
discussion, but one that I reached a year ago and suggested in a QL 
Today editorial.


Quanta's problems is that is still lives in the world when it had 2,000 
members and has the mentality that "what we have always done, we always 
have to do". It needs to start thinking simply and go back to first 
principles. Learn how to organise a no frills show. It is what happens 
at a show that is important and not the Quanta frippery.


I would urge Quanta to go back to the drawing board and look at the 
possibility of a 1 day event.


I have considered Rich's proposal carefully and I like it, but sorry 
Rich, you have not produced for me a business case. I have no idea from 
what you write how much the show would cost Quanta. If you want this 
show to go ahead you really need to do  more homework. I need to know 
who the partners will be, how reliable they are, and what the relative 
costs would be for Quanta. I need to know an estimate of attendance and, 
given that there was a loss on the last occasion, what you anticipate 
the loss to be. I also need to know more than just the venue costs. As 
Sarah has pointed out there are many other costs to a show. Venue costs 
represented about a third of the total costs of QLis21 and about a half 
of the costs of QLis25.


Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion so far,

Best Wishes,


Geoff
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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Peter Graf]

Richard Mellor wrote:

> I too am looking forward to Peter's device

And let's not forget Adrian! :)

> One of the benefits is that Daniele Terdina has already written the
> routines for Q-emuLator to use the same driver as written for the QL and
> hence write natively to the SD card from within Q-emuLator - making it
> much easier to transfer files to the QL.

To be more precise, an image file is accessed, which can be transferred
to and from an SDHC card. At the moment, the image file resides in a
fixed Qemulator subdirectory. I hope that a facility to freely choose
the directory can be integrated into Qemulator later. Daniele also
provided a DLL interface which would allow someone else to implement
this (or other improvements).

Please note that I defined the "Block Device Image" (BDI) interface for
QL emulators in a way that is not restricted to Qemulator nor to QL-SD!
It is a very simple and open interface for QL emulators, so *native*
hardware drivers on the QL side can access block device images present
on the emulator's host filesystem. Richard Zidlicky will also put it
into UQLX. Whoever is interested can have it.

If an emulator implements the BDI interface, the existing native side
driver should also work there, making the emulator comaptible.

> It must also be mentioned that someone else has reverse engineered the
> Qubide interface and using it with his QL as an SD card interface -
> unfortunately, the issue is how to get files to a Qubide formatted SD
> card...

Wasn't that compact flash (which is IDE compatible)?
Or does he use some sort of IDE to SD converter?

Anyway, Richard Zidlicky wrote native support for Qubide under Linux.

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Peter Graf]

Hi Dilwyn,

> Thanks for the update, Peter. I really hope QL-SD makes it to market. I also 
> hope someone will be able to write software to make it easy to transfer 
> files between QL and non-QL media. Out of interest, what media format is the 
> finished QL-SD likely to use - QXL.WIN, Qubide..?

The same as Ser-USB, similar to Qubide.
As for transfer, please see my reply to Rich.

Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services]

On Sun, October 20, 2013 9:47 am, Dilwyn Jones wrote:
> Thanks for the update, Peter. I really hope QL-SD makes it to market. I
> also
> hope someone will be able to write software to make it easy to transfer
> files between QL and non-QL media. Out of interest, what media format is
> the
> finished QL-SD likely to use - QXL.WIN, Qubide..?
>
> Glad to hear interest is picking up a little in Germany. We know that a
> number of new users have joined QL Forum from many countries, making the
> total of 187 members there alone.
>
> Dilwyn
>


I too am looking forward to Peter's device

One of the benefits is that Daniele Terdina has already written the
routines for Q-emuLator to use the same driver as written for the QL and
hence write natively to the SD card from within Q-emuLator - making it
much easier to transfer files to the QL.

It must also be mentioned that someone else has reverse engineered the
Qubide interface and using it with his QL as an SD card interface -
unfortunately, the issue is how to get files to a Qubide formatted SD
card...

Rich

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Dilwyn Jones]

A very positive reply, Geoff, thanks.

When I mentioned the cost, BTW, I was thinking in terms of fearing a higher 
cost event than this, hence why I might have sounded a little negative. 
Certainly, costs of the order  you mention could be OK, as long as it became 
a well organised event.


The cost to Quanta of the Computer Museum might not be as high as we fear if 
I have understood Rich's ideas properly. I think he was talking in terms of 
a general event including ZX81 and Spectrum, financed by ticket sales (free 
to members?) , with the QL being a little village inside the event and room 
for the AGM if the event happens around next April. Rich will correct me if 
I'm wrong I'm sure.


I don't mind too much if the AGM takes place as a small event in Manchester 
and a second"QL is 30" later in the year.


I was also heartened by Peter Graf's email where he suggests  there is "a 
good chance"of the QL-SD card becoming reality this time, as "Someone is 
seriously looking into building it now"


Wouldn't it be a nice new year if somehow we got both a QL-SD card and a "QL 
is 30" event!!!


Dilwyn


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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Dilwyn Jones]

Thanks for the update, Peter. I really hope QL-SD makes it to market. I also 
hope someone will be able to write software to make it easy to transfer 
files between QL and non-QL media. Out of interest, what media format is the 
finished QL-SD likely to use - QXL.WIN, Qubide..?


Glad to hear interest is picking up a little in Germany. We know that a 
number of new users have joined QL Forum from many countries, making the 
total of 187 members there alone.


Dilwyn

-Original Message- 
From: Peter Graf

Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:31 PM
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

Hi,

just my opinion as a QUANTA member. I'd like to join a "QL is 30"
celebration. I personally would prefer this very special event QL
specific and not mixed with a general Sinclair meeting. One last time I
hope we can all get up and make it a big one! :-D

I've done further work for the QL-SD interface and even wrote a
preliminary manual. The QL-SD runs nicely here with the GoldCard as well
as a 512K expansion standard QL. As far as I can see, it can be
considered a finished product. Someone is seriously looking into
building it now, and this time I see a good chance.

The QL-SD might be the best storage devices QL ever had, and it even
fits into the original case. If we give up celebrating the QL, the very
year of this major innovation, wouldn't it be ironic?

Here in Germany interest in the QL seems growing. Unexpected for me,
we'll spontaneously meet with 5 persons in November and a larger meeting
next year. Hard to imagine that England as the QL home country can not
attract a decent number of visitors for the QL 30st anniversary.

All the best
Peter

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Richard Mellor t/as RWAP Services]

On Sun, October 20, 2013 9:22 am, Geoff Wicks wrote:
> So let's try picking up the pieces and seeing what could be done.
>
> 1: The idea of the Computer Museum would be great, but it is too
> expensive. Probably the best bet would be a one day event in a hotel
> function room. That would solve any catering problems.  (But we should
> check on their hygiene ratings. The Allesley scores a 2/5 and the much
> vaunted Pond Quay habitually a 1/5).
>
> 2: The event could be combined with the Quanta AGM, but it would not be
> necessary. Provided it is held in Manchester Quanta can easily organise
> an AGM without a show. A event later than April would give us more
> planning time.
>
> 3: We would need to think about a program with something more than an
> exhibition. One thing I would like to see is getting some of the movers
> and shakers together to discuss how we should handle the post-QL Today
> world. Also we should bear in mind the possibility of Quanta being wound
> up. I think this could be a possibility in 2015.
>
> 4: Let's not get too hung up about a low attendance. It will be what
> happens at the show more than numbers attending that will be important.
>
> 5: I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for Quanta funding up to
> £1,000. After all they still had £7,869 in the bank at the end of 2012.
> And recently that have been willing to spend £692 on a non-functioning
> website.
>

Just a few comments from me...

I don't think the computer museum is too expensive - £1000 was a quote for
a 2 day event - if you want discussions, then you need 2 rooms ideally, so
that you can attract traders to fill the one room whilst talks happen in
another.

I did contact quite a few venues, but they said that they either did not
have a big enough room, or they quoted a lot more than that - the cheapest
I found around here wanted £500 for the Saturday, but £1500 for a Sunday!

The benefit of opening the event to the wider Sinclair community would be
that it would attract non-QL users, and mean that Quanta would not have to
pay the total cost of the event!

The Spectrum is 30 event held at Cambridge University in 2012 attracted
about 200 people on the day but the organiser made a loss due to the cost
of that venue.

My idea was to sell tickets for £10-£15 each for the weekend - and Quanta
could pay for anyone who turned up and prove that they were a Quanta
member (probably a maximum of 20 people).

I agree that we need to attract shakers and movers - but that is why it is
no good deciding 2 / 3 months ahead of the event.

Behind the scenes, I had actually spoken with some people who were
interested including ones who would be willing to donate an item to
auction off on the day for charity.

If a new QL-SD interface were also available for purchase on the day and
some new software available to show off, this would really help make the
show successful and attract people.

Rich
www.rwapsoftware.co.uk

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Re: [Ql-Users] Why?

[Geoff Wicks]

On 19/10/2013 20:16, Dilwyn Jones wrote:



A celebratory event would be great if we could find a suitable venue, 
not too expensive and could be certain of visitors.  Rich has 
suggested the Computer Museum as a venue and it's the closest we've 
got to one, I think. It needn't necessarily be a Quanta event, Rich 
has mentioned the possibility of organising it himself if his health 
allows and someone was able to help him:  time to privatise a Quanta 
workshop perhaps?


Unfortunately, with my partner's ill health over the last year (hi 
Ann!) , my commitment to Quanta has been a bit less than I'd like it 
to be) over the past few months, and I haven't been involved with the 
workshops planning at all apart from the odd email in response to 
Rich's efforts.


The only other way to run an event like this is to find a smaller 
affordable function room, perhaps do a QL History type of display 
again, plus any other celebratory little events we could think of. But 
we've been there before of course. I'd like a special event to occur 
less year, but I'm uneasy about whether it could become value for 
money and best use of funds if the will and commitment wasn't there 
for it to stand a good chance of success.

So let's try picking up the pieces and seeing what could be done.

1: The idea of the Computer Museum would be great, but it is too 
expensive. Probably the best bet would be a one day event in a hotel 
function room. That would solve any catering problems.  (But we should 
check on their hygiene ratings. The Allesley scores a 2/5 and the much 
vaunted Pond Quay habitually a 1/5).


2: The event could be combined with the Quanta AGM, but it would not be 
necessary. Provided it is held in Manchester Quanta can easily organise 
an AGM without a show. A event later than April would give us more 
planning time.


3: We would need to think about a program with something more than an 
exhibition. One thing I would like to see is getting some of the movers 
and shakers together to discuss how we should handle the post-QL Today 
world. Also we should bear in mind the possibility of Quanta being wound 
up. I think this could be a possibility in 2015.


4: Let's not get too hung up about a low attendance. It will be what 
happens at the show more than numbers attending that will be important.


5: I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for Quanta funding up to 
£1,000. After all they still had £7,869 in the bank at the end of 2012. 
And recently that have been willing to spend £692 on a non-functioning 
website.


Best Wishes,


Geoff


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Re: [Ql-Users] Why we can't code (Re: A small machine code program...)

[Marcos Cruz]

En/Je/On 2010-11-27 19:06, Tony Firshman escribió / skribis / wrote :

>> http://www.salon.com/technology/feature/2006/09/14/basic/
> Interesting but awful page coding.
> I must confess I closed the window after only glancing at it.

Sorry. I didn't realize those usability problems because JavaScript, Java,
Flash, sound and such fancy things are turned off by default in all my
browsers.  Sometimes I turn CSS off too in order to read comfortably the pure
text content. Sometimes I even use a text-only broweser, easier and faster.
Many web pages don't respect the usability rules, but you still can access
their content without problem -- it all depends on your browser.

Marcos


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Re: [Ql-Users] Why we can't code (Re: A small machine code program...)

[Tony Firshman]

Marcos Cruz wrote, on 27/Nov/10 18:12 | Nov27:




I remember an excellent article I read some months ago, concerning this issue.
Its title is "Why Johnny can't code":

Original by David Brin:
http://www.salon.com/technology/feature/2006/09/14/basic/

Interesting but awful page coding.
There was an ad which I couldn't close - the 'x' did not respond.
One had to click elsewhere!
Also there was an auto-starting sound file that was not linked to any of 
the videos.

Arghh.
I must confess I closed the window after only glancing at it.


Reviewed by Kroc Camen:
http://www.osnews.com/story/23464/Why_Johnny_Can_t_Code


Tony

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[Ql-Users] Why we can't code (Re: A small machine code program...)

[Marcos Cruz]

En/Je/On 2010-11-27 16:33, gdgqler escribió / skribis / wrote :

> I wonder how many machines other than QL would allow Marcel's fantastic one
> lined SuperBASIC program to operate  immediately by typing in the line and
> then RUN.

Beside the QL, I use the following three machines, and all of them allow that:

ZX Spectrum (1982):

1 FOR i=1 TO 100: PRINT i,"FIZZBUZZ"(1+4*(i/3-INT (i/3)>0) TO 4+4*NOT (i/5-INT 
(i/5))): NEXT i
RUN

Jupiter Ace (1982):

: GO 101 1 DO I . I 3 MOD 0= IF ." FIZZ" THEN I 5 MOD 0= IF ." BUZZ" THEN CR 
LOOP ;
GO

SAM Coupé (1989):

1 FOR i=1 TO 100: PRINT i,"FIZZBUZZ"(1+4*(i MOD 3>0)TO 4+4*NOT i MOD 5):NEXT i
RUN

But there are many more -- in fact most old micros.

I think it's sad we were able to do that with most micros of the 80's, while
we certainly cannot with any modern computer. Nowadays we have to install a
bloated and complex OS and a bloated and complex programming language in order
to type one single command! That's one of the many reasons I love
retroprogramming so much.

I remember an excellent article I read some months ago, concerning this issue.
Its title is "Why Johnny can't code":

Original by David Brin:
http://www.salon.com/technology/feature/2006/09/14/basic/

Reviewed by Kroc Camen:
http://www.osnews.com/story/23464/Why_Johnny_Can_t_Code


Marcos

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