Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Ian A]

"Tea's ready"!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Patrick Moore]

Let's get Monty Python back On Topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01xasUtlvw

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Hey Philip,
> — Yes, slippery slope is a logical falicy, as well as, done properly, a
> logical argument.
> — Nae, I took no umbrage to “ghetto tubeless.”
> — I had no idea an invitation to expand knowledge was a statement that I
> was offended and asking for anyone to reign in anything. I also recommend
> expanding ones knowledge by looking up what the Church’s original reason
> for sensoring Galeleo was (it became mutually messy and stupid after that,
> but never because the Church was anti-science) and just what the various
> Crusades were really about and why. Monty Python’s use of the cultural
> ignorance called the Spanish Inquisition is hilarious. I was pointing out
> the cultural ignorance and inviting people to learn about it for themselves.
> — I love Monty Python! Brilliant, hillarious, equal opportunity insulters.
> “She’s not a witch! She’s a duck!”
>
> Now, can we please get back to bringing out our dead of winter doldrums?
> Grin. “Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!” Let’s hope winter’s not
> dead yet though, we haven’t had enough here. Grin.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Joe Bernard]

Have fun storming the castle! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Justin August]

Where does this leave Cinelli Pope handlebars?
What about the later copies with revisions? Are they Episcopal bars?
Are Jones bars more aptly named Mormon bars for their quintessentially American 
origin?
Are track drops on a Pistachio Buddhist bars? Or would that be chopped off 
drops into bullhorns - ridding yourself of all that is not necessary and 
embracing suffering?

So many deep questions.

-J

On Feb 7, 2018, 8:41 AM -0800, Edwin W , wrote:
> Close this thread now! Before all hell (haha) breaks out.
>
> Edwin
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Edwin W]

Close this thread now! Before all hell (haha) breaks out. 

Edwin

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Patrick Moore]

+1

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 9:38 AM, Paul Choi  wrote:

> Do not forget why we come to this board. Why do we need to tear down and
> attack members here?
>
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-8, John A. Bennett wrote:
>>
>> A Sam Hillborne was spotted in the same spot for weeks on end until
>> someone finally cut the u-lock and posted this on Craigslist.
>>
>> As of now, as far as I know, the Craigslist poster has not heard from the
>> owner.
>>
>> Anyone out there?
>>
>> https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/d/found-rivendell-sa
>> m-hillborne/6474538877.html
>>
>> All I know,
>>
>> John, in Portland (who isn't really in on the whole thing, just posting
>> this here in the hopes it will raise owner)
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Patrick Moore]

Why not? You would reign in references to racist or sexist terms, would you
not? On what basis then do you include other offensive statements published
on list?

Now, the Monty Python reference doesn't bother me, even though I am a
practicing Orthodox Christian who was raised traditional Roman Catholic;
even "Every sperm is sacred" doesn't bother me. But what does bother me is
self-imposed value judges proclaiming onlist.

Either we let everything go, or we apply the same discretion to everyone.
If Catholic sensitivities are to be neglected, then god damn it, let
everyone's sensitivities be neglected.

That statement is just stupid; and stupidity, I guess, the one "value" I
will wholeheartedly mock.

To avoid the furor over this, I think we ought to drop the whole subject.

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 8:28 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> Rein in a Monty Python reference because of alleged Catholic
> sensitivities?  I should hope not.
>
> On 02/06/2018 10:13 PM, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> Aren't you the guy who took umbrage at being told the term "ghetto
> tubeless" could offend people?
>
> I'll reign in the Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" references in future,
> out of deference to my Catholic friends. I reserve a future "CAKE OR DEATH"
> reference, though. as an homage to my crossdresser friends.
>
> Philip (atheist, thanks for asking)
> Santa Rosa, CA
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 2:48:36 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Do your own research, but the Spanish inquisition may not be what most
>> people have been taught. At the risk of pointing out “fake history,”
>> (jwhich as a Catholic I very much wish to point out) the Spanish
>> Inquisition isn’t what most people think. So “No one expects the Spanish
>> Inquisition” is a fine sentement, but a gross omission of facts in history
>> (namely that the Catholic inquisitors treatment of suspected Protistants
>> was less severe in quantity and quality than Protestant equivilants’
>> treatment of Catholics across the globe, including Spain. (Even the
>> Wikipedia article aludes to this possibility).
>>
>
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> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Justin August]

I can’t imagine anything more ludicrous.

On Feb 6, 2018, 7:29 PM -0800, Steve Palincsar , wrote:
> Rein in a Monty Python reference because of alleged Catholic sensitivities?  
> I should hope not.
>
> On 02/06/2018 10:13 PM, Philip Williamson wrote:
> > Aren't you the guy who took umbrage at being told the term "ghetto 
> > tubeless" could offend people?
> >
> > I'll reign in the Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" references in future, 
> > out of deference to my Catholic friends. I reserve a future "CAKE OR DEATH" 
> > reference, though. as an homage to my crossdresser friends.
> >
> > Philip (atheist, thanks for asking)
> > Santa Rosa, CA
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 2:48:36 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> > > Do your own research, but the Spanish inquisition may not be what most 
> > > people have been taught. At the risk of pointing out “fake history,” 
> > > (jwhich as a Catholic I very much wish to point out) the Spanish 
> > > Inquisition isn’t what most people think. So “No one expects the Spanish 
> > > Inquisition” is a fine sentement, but a gross omission of facts in 
> > > history (namely that the Catholic inquisitors treatment of suspected 
> > > Protistants was less severe in quantity and quality than Protestant 
> > > equivilants’ treatment of Catholics across the globe, including Spain. 
> > > (Even the Wikipedia article aludes to this possibility).
>
> --
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> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Steve Palincsar]

Rein in a Monty Python reference because of alleged Catholic 
sensitivities?  I should hope not.



On 02/06/2018 10:13 PM, Philip Williamson wrote:
Aren't you the guy who took umbrage at being told the term "ghetto 
tubeless" could offend people?


I'll reign in the Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" references in 
future, out of deference to my Catholic friends. I reserve a future 
"CAKE OR DEATH" reference, though. as an homage to my crossdresser 
friends.


Philip (atheist, thanks for asking)
Santa Rosa, CA


On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 2:48:36 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Do your own research, but the Spanish inquisition may not be what
most people have been taught. At the risk of pointing out “fake
history,” (jwhich as a Catholic I very much wish to point out) the
Spanish Inquisition isn’t what most people think. So “No one
expects the Spanish Inquisition” is a fine sentement, but a gross
omission of facts in history (namely that the Catholic inquisitors
treatment of suspected Protistants was less severe in quantity and
quality than Protestant equivilants’ treatment of Catholics across
the globe, including Spain. (Even the Wikipedia article aludes to
this possibility).



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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Dane, 

Good for you and good for the owner. I will only chastise you about one thing: 
You left us all hanging as to why the bike was there. Columbo never ended the 
show like that. Give up the 411!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Eric Floden]

Nicely done, and thanks

EricF
Ottawa

On 5 February 2018 at 17:40, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> So the guy on the right is the owner of the bike?  That's the happy ending
> I was hoping for.
>
> What was the backstory to how the bike ended up locked to a pole for at
> least two weeks?  Was it stolen and abandoned by the original thief?
>
> Regarding your explanation for why you took possession of the bike: It
> sounds like you knew exactly what you were doing and were willing to assume
> the risks, which is all anyone can expect, IMO
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
> On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 2:26:15 PM UTC-8, Dane "Finders Keepers"
> Larson wrote:
>>
>>
>> 
>> Hi,
>> That's me on the left up there.
>> I'm the person who cut this bike off of the rack, call me vigilante,
>> Robin Hood, et al. I suppose enough has been said and judgement can be and
>> has been dished, but it's my turn (and may you all learn how long-winded I
>> can be).
>>
>> First, my original email to Rivbike.com:
>>
>>> Hello! I know I'm on sketchy legal ground, but I cut the bike lock off
>>> of a Sam Hillborne today and took it home. My reasoning:
>>> -It had been parked for a minimum of two weeks since I'd made note of
>>> it. A week ago I marked it's tires in chalk and it hasn't moved since, as
>>> it hadn't before.
>>> -The neighborhood is known for car break-ins and bike theft/stripping.
>>> -It's been raining roughly non-stop here for the last week and a half.
>>> -The Brooks saddle hasn't been covered the entirety of it being
>>> parked/abandoned out there.
>>>
>>> So I assumed it was a) stolen and sitting there waiting for pickup, b)
>>> the owner had gotten wasted at a local bar, forgotten where it was, went
>>> home, and never thought to find it, c) the owner got wasted and somehow
>>> died or was incapacitated on their way home and is now in a coma, unable to
>>> acknowledge the missingness of their bike, d) the owner is on vacation and
>>> thought leaving it in that condition for an extended amount of time on the
>>> street was reasonable, or e) the owner (presumably a local, though I
>>> haven't seen this bike before this past such and such time and I notice
>>> these things aka Rivendells) doesn't have access to a porch, yard, shed,
>>> garage, basement, or some other normal form of secure-ish bike parking and
>>> thought they could leave it, an, to the trained eye, obviously valuable
>>> bike (esp. considering the handmade wheelset, Mark's rack, and non-stock
>>> componentry) on the street until Independence Day.
>>> I could continue my treatise on why I essentially just stole a bike, but
>>> I think by now, and by the fact that I'm writing this email, you understand
>>> that it's a bike I respect and would love to return to it's owner if
>>> possible. Caveat: it's my size and I'd love to keep it if I can't find the
>>> owner after diligence is done.
>>> My local Craigslist has been searched, stolen bike internet databases
>>> too, the local police forms are offline, and Portland is notorious for
>>> doing diddily squat about stolen bikes (someone came outside the restaurant
>>> they were dining in to film me and tell me they were contacting the
>>> authorities while I was angle-grinding the lock off in broad daylight. I
>>> told them my name and where I would be the rest of the day, bartending at
>>> the same restaurant they hailed from, and to please pass that along).
>>> I have now posted on my local Craigslist's lost as well as the
>>> bike for sale page and left a note on the rack I ripped it off from.
>>> By this point, you probably know I went through all that trouble to ask
>>> you a simple question.
>>> Can you, by way of the serial number, get me in contact with this
>>> beautiful, well loved Sam Hillborne's owner? I ask for no reward nor ransom.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dane
>>
>>
>> And so today the bike was returned, with much welcome help from John at
>> Rivelo, the kind souls tearing apart the stacks of invoices down in Walnut
>> Creek, and I suppose a little from my friends, You Good Folks Out There.
>> Thanks sharing your beautiful poem, MartyG, I hope we can all find more
>> warmth in our hearts.
>>
>>
>> 
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Justin August]

This episode also furthers the need to register your bikes with BikeIndex.org

I hope the bike gets home and I hope that all is resolved without hard feelings 
or martial intervention.
-J

On Feb 2, 2018, 4:09 PM -0800, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch 
, wrote:
> But spreading the word is the whole point. It just so happens that apparently 
> the RBW Owners Bunch is chock full of internet litigators.
>
> Sure, life is full of gray areas. Operating on the motivational principle, if 
> you catch some kid stealing sunglasses from your store, and he tells you he 
> is going to pawn it so he can have money to eat, maybe you give him a lecture 
> and let him go. Or maybe he smirks and kicks you in the shin and you decide 
> to call the police. Either way,  as the property owner, it's your call. This 
> situation is different--not his property, and already there is a procedure in 
> place to handle this exact event.
>
> I would tend to trust your judgment regarding this cl guy and the Riv bike, 
> and think there is no reason to doubt the guy is sincere and on the up and 
> up. But do you really want people running around Portland rescuing abandoned 
> bicycles? I don't think the guy should be arrested, but he should probably be 
> advised to get the bike to the police or the agency responsible for abandoned 
> bikes asap.
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 6:30:06 PM UTC-5, John at Rivelo wrote:
> > Hi, I'm the guy that posted this in the first place.
> >
> > I have exchanged emails with the Craiglist poster. I have a report from 
> > someone in the neighborhood who spoke with him in person.
> >
> > He has reposted the ad. He has asked me on more than one occasion if I've 
> > had any luck on my end tracking down the owner. (I haven't.)
> >
> > Honestly, I feel kinda' bad now about even mentioning this, considering 
> > that I think the guy is on the up-and-up. Would I have done it
> > exactly the same way? Maybe not. But in every exchange I've had with him, 
> > he comes across as 100% genuine.
> >
> > I tend to skew more toward the "motivation" end of things, both here and in 
> > life, in general. Nothing I've heard from the CL poster - or the guy
> > in the neighborhood who talked to him - leads me to think that his 
> > motivation is anything less than sincere. I don't believe he has any 
> > intention
> > of keeping the bike, or is living in hopes that the owner won't resurface. 
> > He appears to me to really want to find the rightful owner of the Hillborne.
> >
> > John in Portland at Rivelo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 3:04:55 PM UTC-8, Bill Schairer wrote:
> > > I read a thread on crazyguyonabike not long ago by a couple whose tandem 
> > > was stolen in New Orleans (I think) while they were eating lunch on their 
> > > cross country tour.  The bike was rather immediately purchased by a good 
> > > samaritan, knowing it was stolen, for a song.  Amazingly, he found the 
> > > true owner’s name and phone number stuffed in the handlebars or seatpost 
> > > (something like that) and was able to reunite the bike with the owner and 
> > > they were able to complete their tour relatively uninterupted if I 
> > > remember correctly.  I keep thinking I need to stash my name and number 
> > > in my bikes in several places but I’ve never got around to it.
> > >
> > > That aside, I guess I do see a difference in the two actions even if 
> > > technically there is no difference.  No way, no how is that tandem 
> > > getting back to the owner unless a good samaritan takes that action.  No 
> > > way, no how is the bike in Portland getting back to its rightful owner 
> > > BECAUSE of the “good samaritan’s” action.  If I’m the owner of the 
> > > tandem, I’m thanking the guy who purchased my tandem.  If I’m the owner 
> > > of the bike in Portland, I’m wondering who the hell are you stealing my 
> > > bike?  Big difference in my mind even if both actions are legally wrong.
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

But spreading the word is the whole point. It just so happens that 
apparently the RBW Owners Bunch is chock full of internet litigators. 

Sure, life is full of gray areas. Operating on the motivational principle, 
if you catch some kid stealing sunglasses from your store, and he tells you 
he is going to pawn it so he can have money to eat, maybe you give him a 
lecture and let him go. Or maybe he smirks and kicks you in the shin and 
you decide to call the police. Either way,  as the property owner, it's 
your call. This situation is different--not his property, and already there 
is a procedure in place to handle this exact event.

I would tend to trust your judgment regarding this cl guy and the Riv bike, 
and think there is no reason to doubt the guy is sincere and on the up and 
up. But do you really want people running around Portland rescuing 
abandoned bicycles? I don't think the guy should be arrested, but he should 
probably be advised to get the bike to the police or the agency responsible 
for abandoned bikes asap.

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 6:30:06 PM UTC-5, John at Rivelo wrote:
>
> Hi, I'm the guy that posted this in the first place. 
>
> I have exchanged emails with the Craiglist poster. I have a report from 
> someone in the neighborhood who spoke with him in person. 
>
> He has reposted the ad. He has asked me on more than one occasion if I've 
> had any luck on my end tracking down the owner. (I haven't.)
>
> Honestly, I feel kinda' bad now about even mentioning this, considering 
> that I think the guy is on the up-and-up. Would I have done it 
> exactly the same way? Maybe not. But in every exchange I've had with him, 
> he comes across as 100% genuine. 
>
> I tend to skew more toward the "motivation" end of things, both here and 
> in life, in general. Nothing I've heard from the CL poster - or the guy
> in the neighborhood who talked to him - leads me to think that his 
> motivation is anything less than sincere. I don't believe he has any 
> intention
> of keeping the bike, or is living in hopes that the owner won't resurface. 
> He appears to me to really want to find the rightful owner of the Hillborne.
>
> John in Portland at Rivelo
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 3:04:55 PM UTC-8, Bill Schairer wrote:
>>
>> I read a thread on crazyguyonabike not long ago by a couple whose tandem 
>> was stolen in New Orleans (I think) while they were eating lunch on their 
>> cross country tour.  The bike was rather immediately purchased by a good 
>> samaritan, knowing it was stolen, for a song.  Amazingly, he found the true 
>> owner’s name and phone number stuffed in the handlebars or seatpost 
>> (something like that) and was able to reunite the bike with the owner and 
>> they were able to complete their tour relatively uninterupted if I remember 
>> correctly.  I keep thinking I need to stash my name and number in my bikes 
>> in several places but I’ve never got around to it. 
>>
>> That aside, I guess I do see a difference in the two actions even if 
>> technically there is no difference.  No way, no how is that tandem getting 
>> back to the owner unless a good samaritan takes that action.  No way, no 
>> how is the bike in Portland getting back to its rightful owner BECAUSE of 
>> the “good samaritan’s” action.  If I’m the owner of the tandem, I’m 
>> thanking the guy who purchased my tandem.  If I’m the owner of the bike in 
>> Portland, I’m wondering who the hell are you stealing my bike?  Big 
>> difference in my mind even if both actions are legally wrong.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[John at Rivelo]

Hi, I'm the guy that posted this in the first place. 

I have exchanged emails with the Craiglist poster. I have a report from 
someone in the neighborhood who spoke with him in person. 

He has reposted the ad. He has asked me on more than one occasion if I've 
had any luck on my end tracking down the owner. (I haven't.)

Honestly, I feel kinda' bad now about even mentioning this, considering 
that I think the guy is on the up-and-up. Would I have done it 
exactly the same way? Maybe not. But in every exchange I've had with him, 
he comes across as 100% genuine. 

I tend to skew more toward the "motivation" end of things, both here and in 
life, in general. Nothing I've heard from the CL poster - or the guy
in the neighborhood who talked to him - leads me to think that his 
motivation is anything less than sincere. I don't believe he has any 
intention
of keeping the bike, or is living in hopes that the owner won't resurface. 
He appears to me to really want to find the rightful owner of the Hillborne.

John in Portland at Rivelo





On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 3:04:55 PM UTC-8, Bill Schairer wrote:
>
> I read a thread on crazyguyonabike not long ago by a couple whose tandem 
> was stolen in New Orleans (I think) while they were eating lunch on their 
> cross country tour.  The bike was rather immediately purchased by a good 
> samaritan, knowing it was stolen, for a song.  Amazingly, he found the true 
> owner’s name and phone number stuffed in the handlebars or seatpost 
> (something like that) and was able to reunite the bike with the owner and 
> they were able to complete their tour relatively uninterupted if I remember 
> correctly.  I keep thinking I need to stash my name and number in my bikes 
> in several places but I’ve never got around to it. 
>
> That aside, I guess I do see a difference in the two actions even if 
> technically there is no difference.  No way, no how is that tandem getting 
> back to the owner unless a good samaritan takes that action.  No way, no 
> how is the bike in Portland getting back to its rightful owner BECAUSE of 
> the “good samaritan’s” action.  If I’m the owner of the tandem, I’m 
> thanking the guy who purchased my tandem.  If I’m the owner of the bike in 
> Portland, I’m wondering who the hell are you stealing my bike?  Big 
> difference in my mind even if both actions are legally wrong.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Bill Schairer]

I read a thread on crazyguyonabike not long ago by a couple whose tandem was 
stolen in New Orleans (I think) while they were eating lunch on their cross 
country tour.  The bike was rather immediately purchased by a good samaritan, 
knowing it was stolen, for a song.  Amazingly, he found the true owner’s name 
and phone number stuffed in the handlebars or seatpost (something like that) 
and was able to reunite the bike with the owner and they were able to complete 
their tour relatively uninterupted if I remember correctly.  I keep thinking I 
need to stash my name and number in my bikes in several places but I’ve never 
got around to it.

That aside, I guess I do see a difference in the two actions even if 
technically there is no difference.  No way, no how is that tandem getting back 
to the owner unless a good samaritan takes that action.  No way, no how is the 
bike in Portland getting back to its rightful owner BECAUSE of the “good 
samaritan’s” action.  If I’m the owner of the tandem, I’m thanking the guy who 
purchased my tandem.  If I’m the owner of the bike in Portland, I’m wondering 
who the hell are you stealing my bike?  Big difference in my mind even if both 
actions are legally wrong.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Christopher Murray]

Link above doesn’t work. This should:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/kE4C2hvv-xY

Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Christopher Murray]

I’ll agree with all of this on the condition that we all agree that purchasing 
a bike you think is stolen to try and return it to the rightful owner is also a 
crime, raises as many or more ethical issues, and should no longer be praised. 
Intentions don’t matter, right? Purchasing stolen property is a crime. This 
happens a few times a year on this list and I have NEVER heard anyone condemn 
the purchaser. 

For example:
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/Stolen/rbw-owners-bunch/kE4C2hvv-xY

I say we give the guy a break. No one knows all the circumstances and we are in 
a poor position to act as judge and jury. 

Chris 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Justin August]

As in the rest of life - intentions don’t matter, impact does. The impact is 
that someone has now definitely had their bike stolen.

-J

On Feb 2, 2018, 1:40 PM -0800, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch 
, wrote:
> Bill Lindsay wrote: The innocence of our Craigslist angel is established 
> completely by us believing his story about his intent.  It's just a variant 
> of the "I was just borrowing it" defense.  That defense is valid if we 
> believe it, and is invalid if we don't.
>
> In this case I would argue it matters not at all whether the guy has good 
> intentions; that is not a legitimate defense. Even if we may sympathize with 
> his motive, it does not make his actions valid or him innocent of breaking 
> the law. It's just vigilantism, plain and simple. Private citizens can't go 
> making this kind of decision, because, chaos, eventually.
>
> Also, apologies to Jon, I did not see his script. Great minds, etc.
>
> Here is the form Marty was referencing. You can find it easily by googling 
> Portland abandoned bicycle. 
> https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/73379
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[nash5510]

I'm going to say that if that were my bike and "something bad happened" to me I 
would NOT want a stranger to cut my lock and put it in their garage and try to 
look for me.  

Even if "something bad" happens to me I will know where I left my bike and will 
return for it or send someone for it. 

Or even if I don't, I wouldn't feel better about someone with good intentions 
taking it.  Dont mess with other peoples things.  That is my personal outlook.  

Just because one person perceives their actions to be good intentioned and 
thinks that they are part of some sort of community does not mean that the 
other party sees things the same or even knows that said community exists.  The 
more I read this thread the ridiculous I find this line of reasoning.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Evan E.]

Yep! At what point does a "the owner didn't claim it" bike become "my 
bike"?  When I saw that Sam in San Francisco, locked up outdoors for months 
on end, I twice placed an ad on Craigslist asking the owner that if she or 
he no longer wanted that Sam Hillborne parked somewhere in the city, I'd be 
interested in buying it. No reply. Not that I expected one. But I was 
sincerely trying to get that bike back indoors -- and preferably reunited 
with the owner who locked it up.

>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Kieran J]

As others have mentioned, what I get hung up on is, what will the CL dude do 
if/when nobody comes forward for the bike? Does he have an ultimate plan on 
that? Will he eventually assume nobody is coming back for it and relinquish it 
to the police as a 'found item'? Or will he keep it indefinitely? How much time 
will have to pass before it's time to act on that decision?

There are many reasons why the original owner of the bike may never connect 
with the CL dude - travel, health issues, lack of internet-search competency, 
etc. - but that doesn't mean they aren't out looking for it. Or maybe they are 
sitting at home dismayed because their bike has disappeared and they assume 
it's stolen and gone for good.

The guy commandeered someone else's property, without their consent, for "their 
own good". Best intentions aside, that doesn't sit right with me.

KJ

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Justin August]

I skapprove if Bill’s armchair lawyer assessment and of his lawyer friend’s 
assessment. My car once got a sticker and boot on it because it was parked 
across the street from my apartment for over 72 hours. That neighbor was a 
particularly picky person who felt they “owned” the space and used the letter 
of the law to violate the spirit of it by reporting a car “left in a single 
location for longer than 72 hours.”

There are many ways to address the issue of a bike you think may have been left 
that happen before you cut someone’s lock, many of which have been outlined 
here.

-Justin, skanking in the pit/pediatric wing of KP

On Feb 2, 2018, 10:24 AM -0800, Bill Lindsay , wrote:
> Justin approves and disapproves, as is his right.  I think this guy in PDX 
> sounds like a guardian angel, and I hope deep in my soul that this story has 
> a happy ending and turns out to be victimless.  If something of mine got 
> stolen I'd rather it be safe and warm in a nice guys house where I "might" 
> find it, rather than abandoned locked on a pole for weeks.
>
> That said, I'm not comfortable with the notion of individuals in a civilized 
> society deciding arbitrarily when it is OK for them to take property that 
> isn't theirs without consent.  The innocence of our Craigslist angel is 
> established completely by us believing his story about his intent.  It's just 
> a variant of the "I was just borrowing it" defense.  That defense is valid if 
> we believe it, and is invalid if we don't.
>
> I don't have an answer, or a conclusion.  I even asked my lawyer friends 
> about it.  They all (well 2 of 2) think the Craigslist angel should be 
> charged with a crime.
>
> BL in EC
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 9:14:46 AM UTC-8, Justin, Oakland wrote:
> > Bill-
> > I approve of your Ska-inclusiveness but disapprove of your ska-analogy.
> > See you in the pit,
> > Justin
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Evan E.]

About five years ago I occasionally walked past an orange Sam Hillborne 
that had been locked up in one place, outdoors, for so long that the 
components were all rusted and the spokes were a tangle of spider webs. I 
stopped by my local police station and asked an officer if the owner could 
be notified. Or, failing that, was there a specific point at which a locked 
bike could be considered abandoned? The officer said no. And he added that 
no matter how long that bike might sit, "it's someone else's property." 
Fair enough. I stopped wondering about the bike. Then a few months later, I 
walked past Sam's parking place and the bike was gone. I never knew if a 
thief took it or the owner came back to claim it.

Evan Elliot
San Francisco

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Bill, I'm sure you'd return the money if you knew that it came from someone
who lost everything:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/22/world/la-fg-japan-returned-money-20110923

This reminds me of the scores of unlocked bikes I saw in Tokyo--even the
locked bikes I remember were not locked to anything.  They might have a
cable lock through the frame and front tire, but not secured.

Toshi


On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Here's another one:
>
> I find a quarter on the street.  I take it without consent, with the
> intent to permanently deny the rightful owner of that property
>
> I find a $20 bill on the street.  I take it without consent, with the
> intent to permanently deny the rightful owner of that property
>
> I find $20,000 on the street.  I take it without consent, with the intent
> to permanently deny the rightful owner of that property
>
> Are any of these 'theft'?   Probably.  Are they all 'theft'?  There's the
> 'petty theft' and 'grand theft' distinction, but I guess it's either all
> theft, or none of it is.
>
> B
>
> p.s. I hope  I never find $20,000, because I'd want to keep it.
>
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 2:14:26 PM UTC-8, Ian A wrote:
>>
>> Bill: Borrowing without intent is an interesting argument, but I imagine
>> a judge would not be easily convinced that it wasn't intention to
>> permanently deprive.
>>
>> IanA - also not a lawyer. Since when has common sense ever prevailed?
>> Certainly rarely in my life!
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Eric Norris]

I agree with the idea to post a notice where the bike was letting the owner 
know how to contact you. If they were somehow unable to get to their bike for a 
few weeks (maybe in a coma?) and then went back to retrieve it, there should be 
some way for them to find it.

--Eric N
Twitter/Instagram/YouTube: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Feb 1, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Joe Bunik  wrote:
> 
> When the Craiglist ad expires in ~2 weeks, who will remember it?
> Poster should at least make VERY PUBLICLY CLEAR and known his/her
> name, address, phone number-- maybe then "the community" will be
> better able to help connect the owner back with their stolen property.
> 
> =- Joe Bunik
> Walnut Creek, CA
> 
>> On 2/1/18, Doug H.  wrote:
>> I might have left a note on the bike asking the owner to call you if they
>> have parked it long term or just happen to have it parked when you go by
>> the spot. I'm sure they would appreciate the concern if they see the note.
>> Otherwise, not a good idea to cut a lock and take a bike in my estimation,
>> even though your intentions are good.
>> Doug
>> 
>>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 2:21:40 PM UTC-5, John A. Bennett wrote:
>>> 
>>> A Sam Hillborne was spotted in the same spot for weeks on end until
>>> someone finally cut the u-lock and posted this on Craigslist.
>>> 
>>> As of now, as far as I know, the Craigslist poster has not heard from the
>>> 
>>> owner.
>>> 
>>> Anyone out there?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/d/found-rivendell-sam-hillborne/6474538877.html
>>> 
>>> All I know,
>>> 
>>> John, in Portland (who isn't really in on the whole thing, just posting
>>> this here in the hopes it will raise owner)
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Bill Lindsay]

Jeff

I did the identical googlings, for theft and unauthorized borrowing --> 
plagiarism.  It's like we used the same interwebz

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 12:59:20 PM UTC-8, Jeff wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:23 PM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> Interesting. It isn’t theft if you take something that isn’t yours but 
>> don’t intend to permanently deprive the owner of the property.
>>
>> So I could take a bike that isn’t mine, use it for six months and put it 
>> back where I ‘found’ it without committing theft?  Is there a different 
>> statute I’ve broken in that situation?
>>
>>
> IANAL but I'll be darned if I didn't just ask the googler what the legal 
> definition of theft is and the top results all appear to report similar 
> definitions from a number of sources... and I found it on the Internet, so 
> it must be true: "Theft is often defined as the unauthorized taking of 
> property from another with the intent to PERMANENTLY DEPRIVE THEM OF IT" 
> capitalization/yelling is my emphasis. Crazy, but sounds like you're in the 
> clear, Bill, to go on that six month joy ride, as long as you only 
> TEMPORARILY intend to deprive the owner of their bike. Good luck, enjoy the 
> ride, let us know how it works out.
>
> In the interest of looking for a different statue that may be broken in 
> that situation, I searched "unauthorized borrowing" and only found legal 
> references to plagiarism. Not only am I not a lawyer, I'm also not an 
> author or writer, but I'm pretty sure any statutes regarding plagiarism 
> won't be in play for a bike ride :) 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Jeff Lesperance]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:23 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Interesting. It isn’t theft if you take something that isn’t yours but
> don’t intend to permanently deprive the owner of the property.
>
> So I could take a bike that isn’t mine, use it for six months and put it
> back where I ‘found’ it without committing theft?  Is there a different
> statute I’ve broken in that situation?
>
>
IANAL but I'll be darned if I didn't just ask the googler what the legal
definition of theft is and the top results all appear to report similar
definitions from a number of sources... and I found it on the Internet, so
it must be true: "Theft is often defined as the unauthorized taking of
property from another with the intent to PERMANENTLY DEPRIVE THEM OF IT"
capitalization/yelling is my emphasis. Crazy, but sounds like you're in the
clear, Bill, to go on that six month joy ride, as long as you only
TEMPORARILY intend to deprive the owner of their bike. Good luck, enjoy the
ride, let us know how it works out.

In the interest of looking for a different statue that may be broken in
that situation, I searched "unauthorized borrowing" and only found legal
references to plagiarism. Not only am I not a lawyer, I'm also not an
author or writer, but I'm pretty sure any statutes regarding plagiarism
won't be in play for a bike ride :)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Joe Bunik]

When the Craiglist ad expires in ~2 weeks, who will remember it?
Poster should at least make VERY PUBLICLY CLEAR and known his/her
name, address, phone number-- maybe then "the community" will be
better able to help connect the owner back with their stolen property.

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

On 2/1/18, Doug H.  wrote:
> I might have left a note on the bike asking the owner to call you if they
> have parked it long term or just happen to have it parked when you go by
> the spot. I'm sure they would appreciate the concern if they see the note.
> Otherwise, not a good idea to cut a lock and take a bike in my estimation,
> even though your intentions are good.
> Doug
>
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 2:21:40 PM UTC-5, John A. Bennett wrote:
>>
>> A Sam Hillborne was spotted in the same spot for weeks on end until
>> someone finally cut the u-lock and posted this on Craigslist.
>>
>> As of now, as far as I know, the Craigslist poster has not heard from the
>>
>> owner.
>>
>> Anyone out there?
>>
>>
>> https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/d/found-rivendell-sam-hillborne/6474538877.html
>>
>> All I know,
>>
>> John, in Portland (who isn't really in on the whole thing, just posting
>> this here in the hopes it will raise owner)
>>
>
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