Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins)

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Same cells that Tesla uses! Type NMC lithium 18650's.

> We found the Quick Charge Chargers to be the best deal for 48 v
> chargers, otherwise the Iota is good for lower voltages
>
> https://quickcharge.com/
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
>
> On 2/16/18 4:04 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:
>> Hi Tom;
>>
>> Each battery consists of 7 pack of 16 Panasonic CGR 1865D batteries
>> making
>> up a 48V system from what I understand from Panasonic 1.5 kWh.  The
>> Panasonic tech mentioned he knew of the firm and gave me the name of one
>> if
>> the tech officers.  I'm going to look him up and see if I can get some
>> info
>> from him.  Going to purchase a 48V charger and test each battery to see
>> if
>> it hold a charge.  Thank you for your input.
>>
>>
>> Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner
>> Blue Sky Energy
>> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com
>> 310.422.2908
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
>> Behalf Of Tom Ruscitti
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:16 PM
>> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries
>> (Steve
>> Higgins)
>>
>> Some of my non-solar consulting involves test engineering for lithium
>> ion
>> materials development. I'm no expert but I do get to work with folks
>> developing and testing cells and sit in on industry training and
>> conferences
>> now and then. I would discourage trying the jump start described here
>> without direct guidance from the cell / battery manufacturer and a
>> properly
>> operating BMS. Li-ion batteries can be much less tolerant to over-charge
>> and
>> over-discharge than the lead acid we're used to working with in the
>> solar
>> business. Li-ion batteries require a strictly enforced minimum cutoff
>> voltage. For example, the discharge cutoff for one recent client's
>> battery
>> is spec'd at 2.5V per cell. There can be damage to the anode If voltage
>> falls below that. Also, if you try the jump-start on compromised packs
>> with
>> no BMS, different cells will charge at different rates due to differing
>> internal resistance (one function of BMS is cell balancing).
>> Over-charging
>> can result in permanent capacity loss and also electrode damage.
>> Depending
>> on the chemistry this sort of damage can increase the risk of thermal
>> events.
>> I've heard that some BMS will prevent recharging if the minimum cell
>> voltage
>> limit has been busted, but no first hand experience myself. If you do a
>> web
>> search on "lithium ion damage over discharge" you'll see plenty of
>> discussion. I tried to find specs on the iCel system but didn't find
>> anything useful.
>>
>> be careful,
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> --
>> Tom Ruscitti
>> Senior Engineer
>>
>> Taitem Engineering, PC
>> 110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
>> Mobile: (607) 220-7022
>> www.taitem.com
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins)

[Ray]

We found the Quick Charge Chargers to be the best deal for 48 v 
chargers, otherwise the Iota is good for lower voltages


https://quickcharge.com/

Ray Walters

Remote Solar


On 2/16/18 4:04 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:

Hi Tom;

Each battery consists of 7 pack of 16 Panasonic CGR 1865D batteries making
up a 48V system from what I understand from Panasonic 1.5 kWh.  The
Panasonic tech mentioned he knew of the firm and gave me the name of one if
the tech officers.  I'm going to look him up and see if I can get some info
from him.  Going to purchase a 48V charger and test each battery to see if
it hold a charge.  Thank you for your input.


Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner
Blue Sky Energy
g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com
310.422.2908



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Ruscitti
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:16 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve
Higgins)

Some of my non-solar consulting involves test engineering for lithium ion
materials development. I'm no expert but I do get to work with folks
developing and testing cells and sit in on industry training and conferences
now and then. I would discourage trying the jump start described here
without direct guidance from the cell / battery manufacturer and a properly
operating BMS. Li-ion batteries can be much less tolerant to over-charge and
over-discharge than the lead acid we're used to working with in the solar
business. Li-ion batteries require a strictly enforced minimum cutoff
voltage. For example, the discharge cutoff for one recent client's battery
is spec'd at 2.5V per cell. There can be damage to the anode If voltage
falls below that. Also, if you try the jump-start on compromised packs with
no BMS, different cells will charge at different rates due to differing
internal resistance (one function of BMS is cell balancing). Over-charging
can result in permanent capacity loss and also electrode damage. Depending
on the chemistry this sort of damage can increase the risk of thermal
events.
I've heard that some BMS will prevent recharging if the minimum cell voltage
limit has been busted, but no first hand experience myself. If you do a web
search on "lithium ion damage over discharge" you'll see plenty of
discussion. I tried to find specs on the iCel system but didn't find
anything useful.

be careful,

Tom

--
Tom Ruscitti
Senior Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Mobile: (607) 220-7022
www.taitem.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins)

[Gary Rochlin]

Hi Tom;

Each battery consists of 7 pack of 16 Panasonic CGR 1865D batteries making
up a 48V system from what I understand from Panasonic 1.5 kWh.  The
Panasonic tech mentioned he knew of the firm and gave me the name of one if
the tech officers.  I'm going to look him up and see if I can get some info
from him.  Going to purchase a 48V charger and test each battery to see if
it hold a charge.  Thank you for your input.  


Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner
Blue Sky Energy 
g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com
310.422.2908



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Ruscitti
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:16 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve
Higgins)

Some of my non-solar consulting involves test engineering for lithium ion
materials development. I'm no expert but I do get to work with folks
developing and testing cells and sit in on industry training and conferences
now and then. I would discourage trying the jump start described here
without direct guidance from the cell / battery manufacturer and a properly
operating BMS. Li-ion batteries can be much less tolerant to over-charge and
over-discharge than the lead acid we're used to working with in the solar
business. Li-ion batteries require a strictly enforced minimum cutoff
voltage. For example, the discharge cutoff for one recent client's battery
is spec'd at 2.5V per cell. There can be damage to the anode If voltage
falls below that. Also, if you try the jump-start on compromised packs with
no BMS, different cells will charge at different rates due to differing
internal resistance (one function of BMS is cell balancing). Over-charging
can result in permanent capacity loss and also electrode damage. Depending
on the chemistry this sort of damage can increase the risk of thermal
events. 
I've heard that some BMS will prevent recharging if the minimum cell voltage
limit has been busted, but no first hand experience myself. If you do a web
search on "lithium ion damage over discharge" you'll see plenty of
discussion. I tried to find specs on the iCel system but didn't find
anything useful.

be careful,

Tom

--
Tom Ruscitti
Senior Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Mobile: (607) 220-7022
www.taitem.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Gary Rochlin]

Thank you for the input.  I’m going to purchase a 48V Charger and charger each 
module and monitor it closely.   

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Darryl Thayer
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 4:03 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

 

Is there not a concern that if the batteries are showing such low voltage that 
they will not accept current, and the voltage will rise to module voltage and 
put array voltage on the output of the charge controller?

 

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Ray mailto:r...@solarray.com> > wrote:

Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it.  The wiring 
is already there, you just have jump the array positive to the controller 
output.  ( a little double lugging never hurt anyone?!!.)  

Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way.  They will just put 
out close to their short circuit current, as the batteries will pull the array 
voltage way down on the IV curve. 

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

 

On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote:

Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send 
the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More 
specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom 
depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send 
the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other 
controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better 
if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect.

What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid 
as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before 
voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no 
experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being 
unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an 
operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought.

Allan

-- 

Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com> 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738   cell

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:

Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 
iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium 
Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 
6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers.  Via a surge 
from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in.  Batteries are 
sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the 
batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries.  
I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel  batteries or goose the 
charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I think I’m 
making sense here.  

Blue Sky Energy 

 <mailto:mtnri...@verizon.net> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com 
<http://blue-sky-energy.com> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Gary Rochlin]

Hi Ray- Thank you for the input.  It is much appreciated.  I'm going to
purchase a 48V Charger and give it a go. 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 10:24 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

 

Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it.  The
wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive to the
controller output.  ( a little double lugging never hurt anyone?!!.)  

Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way.  They will just
put out close to their short circuit current, as the batteries will pull the
array voltage way down on the IV curve. 

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

 

On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote:

Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send
the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More
specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom
depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation.
Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the
other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is
reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I
would suspect.

What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA
lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the
system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I,
as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about
being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an
operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought.

Allan

-- 



Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com> al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:

Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa
2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an
older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in
parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge
controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were
called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will
not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made
for lead acid batteries.  I'm looking at finding the way to charge the iCel
batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from
the batteries.  I think I'm making sense here.  

Blue Sky Energy 

 <mailto:mtnri...@verizon.net> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Gary Rochlin]

Noted - Thank you for the input.  It is much appreciated. 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Steve Higgins
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 9:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

 

That's probably what I would try also... but be really careful with Li, there 
may be an issue with the BMS already, doing this could cause thermal runaway... 
I would probably do so away from any structures, and I would be using an 
thermal camera to monitor for hot spots.  

 

I've done this with Li Po RC Batteries and a 12volt regulated power supply... I 
don't know how they will react to direct array voltage. 

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 10, 2018 12:38 AM, "Sindelar Solar" mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com> > wrote:

Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send 
the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More 
specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom 
depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send 
the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other 
controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better 
if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect.

What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid 
as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before 
voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no 
experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being 
unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an 
operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought.

Allan

-- 

Allan Sindelar
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com> 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738   cell

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:

Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 
iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium 
Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 
6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers.  Via a surge 
from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in.  Batteries are 
sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the 
batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries.  
I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel  batteries or goose the 
charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I think I’m 
making sense here.  

Blue Sky Energy 

 <mailto:mtnri...@verizon.net> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com 
<http://blue-sky-energy.com> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Gary Rochlin]

Hi Allen – Thank you for the input.  It is much appreciated.  I’m going to 
purchase a 48V Charger. 

Gary Rochlin / Managing Partner

Blue Sky Energy 

 <mailto:mtnri...@verizon.net> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com

310.422.2908

 

 

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of John Blittersdorf
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 6:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

 

Gary,

  I keep 24v and 48 v IOTA chargers with jumper cables attached for those times 
when systems are dead.  Just a minute or so plugged into my Honda 2000I or 
generator on bypass gets everything lit up and running. 

Just did one yesterday.  Got Kohler running but Mate 3 and inverter would not 
turn on. 

 

John B

Sent from my iPhone


On Feb 10, 2018, at 3:37 AM, Sindelar Solar mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com> > wrote:

Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send 
the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More 
specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom 
depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send 
the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other 
controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better 
if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect.

What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA lead-acid 
as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the system before 
voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, as I have no 
experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about being 
unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an 
operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought.

Allan

-- 



Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com> al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:

Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 
iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium 
Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 
6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers.  Via a surge 
from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in.  Batteries are 
sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the 
batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries.  
I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel  batteries or goose the 
charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I think I’m 
making sense here.  

Blue Sky Energy 

 <mailto:mtnri...@verizon.net> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com 
<http://blue-sky-energy.com> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Gary Rochlin]

Hi Allen - Thank you for the input.  It is much appreciated.

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Sindelar Solar
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 12:38 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

 

Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send
the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More
specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom
depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation.
Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the
other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is
reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I
would suspect.

What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA
lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the
system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I,
as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about
being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an
operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought.

Allan

-- 



Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com> al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:

Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa
2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an
older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in
parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge
controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were
called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will
not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made
for lead acid batteries.  I'm looking at finding the way to charge the iCel
batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from
the batteries.  I think I'm making sense here.  

Blue Sky Energy 

 <mailto:mtnri...@verizon.net> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Gary Rochlin]

Yes they are – I took one of the packs apart and each battery is made up of 7 
packs of 16 Panasonic CGR1865D Panasonic LI Batteries.  I think if we do a test 
charge and see if we can get the voltage to increase it will be an indication 
the battery is still good. Thank you for your Input.

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Darryl Thayer
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 7:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

 

Gary I have been told that below a certain voltage the LI-ion cells suffer a 
permanent death.  I believe these batteries are small cells in parallel.strings 
 and then series connected strings. to make the voltage.can you use a lab power 
supply to start the charge?  I purchased one for about 60 to 90 $ that allows 
me to adjust the voltage and limit the current until the battery gets up to 
voltage IF it ever does..

 

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Gary Rochlin mailto:g.roch...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 2010-2012 
iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an older 48V Lithium 
Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 
6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers.  Via a surge 
from SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in.  Batteries are 
sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will not turn on unless the 
batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries.  
I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel  batteries or goose the 
charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I think I’m 
making sense here.  

 

Blue Sky Energy 

 <mailto:mtnri...@verizon.net> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com 
<http://blue-sky-energy.com> 

 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

That's why Allan and I only recommend this if a knowledgeable tech is 
there to monitor it.  It should only take a few minutes to either see 
the batteries are just not going to wake up, or for regular charging to 
take over.   This is basically CPR for the batteries.  You don't ever do 
it normally, and you stop as soon as: A) nothing is happening, or B) the 
battery voltage rises enough for the charge controller to start doing 
its job again.


Ray


On 2/10/18 5:03 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:
Is there not a concern that if the batteries are showing such low 
voltage that they will not accept current, and the voltage will rise 
to module voltage and put array voltage on the output of the charge 
controller?


On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Ray > wrote:


Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it. 
The wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive
to the controller output.  ( a little double lugging never hurt
anyone?!!.)

Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way.  They
will just put out close to their short circuit current, as the
batteries will pull the array voltage way down on the IV curve.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar


On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote:


Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the
controller to send the array straight to the batteries until
threshold voltage is reached. More specifically, bypass one of
the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array.
Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send the
unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the
other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is
reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of
the two, I would suspect.

What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely
VRLA lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken
out of the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at
all with these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them.
Daryl may well be right about being unrestorable below a
threshold voltage; also the batteries may need an operational BMS
to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for thought.

Allan

-- 


*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738  cell*

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:


Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older
circa 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a
repair on an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel
batteries wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex
Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge controllers.  Via a surge from
SCE system shut down and sat before we were called in. 
Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will
not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time
they were made for lead acid batteries.  I’m looking at finding
the way to charge the iCel batteries or goose the charge
controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I
think I’m making sense here.

*Blue Sky Energy *

g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

Is there not a concern that if the batteries are showing such low voltage
that they will not accept current, and the voltage will rise to module
voltage and put array voltage on the output of the charge controller?

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Ray  wrote:

> Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it.  The
> wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive to the
> controller output.  ( a little double lugging never hurt anyone?!!.)
>
> Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way.  They will just
> put out close to their short circuit current, as the batteries will pull
> the array voltage way down on the IV curve.
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote:
>
> Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to
> send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is
> reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60
> or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal
> operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up;
> then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is
> reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I
> would suspect.
>
> What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA
> lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the
> system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I,
> as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about
> being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need
> an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for
> thought.
>
> Allan
> --
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell*
> On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa
> 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an
> older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in
> parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge
> controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were
> called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will
> not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were
> made for lead acid batteries.  I’m looking at finding the way to charge the
> iCel  batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming
> from the batteries.  I think I’m making sense here.
>
> *Blue Sky Energy *
>
> g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries (Steve Higgins)

[Tom Ruscitti]

Some of my non-solar consulting involves test engineering for lithium 
ion materials development. I'm no expert but I do get to work with folks 
developing and testing cells and sit in on industry training and 
conferences now and then. I would discourage trying the jump start 
described here without direct guidance from the cell / battery 
manufacturer and a properly operating BMS. Li-ion batteries can be much 
less tolerant to over-charge and over-discharge than the lead acid we're 
used to working with in the solar business. Li-ion batteries require a 
strictly enforced minimum cutoff voltage. For example, the discharge 
cutoff for one recent client's battery is spec'd at 2.5V per cell. There 
can be damage to the anode If voltage falls below that. Also, if you try 
the jump-start on compromised packs with no BMS, different cells will 
charge at different rates due to differing internal resistance (one 
function of BMS is cell balancing). Over-charging can result in 
permanent capacity loss and also electrode damage. Depending on the 
chemistry this sort of damage can increase the risk of thermal events. 
I've heard that some BMS will prevent recharging if the minimum cell 
voltage limit has been busted, but no first hand experience myself. If 
you do a web search on "lithium ion damage over discharge" you'll see 
plenty of discussion. I tried to find specs on the iCel system but 
didn't find anything useful.


be careful,

Tom

--
Tom Ruscitti
Senior Engineer

Taitem Engineering, PC
110 S. Albany Street, Ithaca, NY 14850
Mobile: (607) 220-7022
www.taitem.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

Allan has a good approach as long as you are there to monitor it.  The 
wiring is already there, you just have jump the array positive to the 
controller output.  ( a little double lugging never hurt anyone?!!.)


Even higher voltage arrays with MPPT can be used this way.  They will 
just put out close to their short circuit current, as the batteries will 
pull the array voltage way down on the IV curve.


Ray Walters

Remote Solar


On 2/10/18 1:37 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote:


Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller 
to send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is 
reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 
48, 60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain 
in normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial 
battery voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one 
that was bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array 
is the smaller of the two, I would suspect.


What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA 
lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of 
the system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with 
these Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may 
well be right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also 
the batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is 
perhaps just food for thought.


Allan

--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:


Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 
2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on 
an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries 
wired in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 
Solar Charge controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and 
sat before we were called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the 
charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V 
since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries.  I’m 
looking at finding the way to charge the iCel  batteries or goose the 
charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I 
think I’m making sense here.


*Blue Sky Energy *

g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Steve Higgins]

That's probably what I would try also... but be really careful with Li,
there may be an issue with the BMS already, doing this could cause thermal
runaway... I would probably do so away from any structures, and I would be
using an thermal camera to monitor for hot spots.

I've done this with Li Po RC Batteries and a 12volt regulated power
supply... I don't know how they will react to direct array voltage.





On Feb 10, 2018 12:38 AM, "Sindelar Solar"  wrote:

> Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to
> send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is
> reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60
> or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal
> operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up;
> then the other controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is
> reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I
> would suspect.
>
> What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA
> lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the
> system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I,
> as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be right about
> being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may need
> an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for
> thought.
>
> Allan
> --
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell*
> On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa
> 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an
> older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in
> parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge
> controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were
> called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will
> not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were
> made for lead acid batteries.  I’m looking at finding the way to charge the
> iCel  batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming
> from the batteries.  I think I’m making sense here.
>
> *Blue Sky Energy *
>
> g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[John Blittersdorf]

Gary,
  I keep 24v and 48 v IOTA chargers with jumper cables attached for those times 
when systems are dead.  Just a minute or so plugged into my Honda 2000I or 
generator on bypass gets everything lit up and running. 
Just did one yesterday.  Got Kohler running but Mate 3 and inverter would not 
turn on. 

John B

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 10, 2018, at 3:37 AM, Sindelar Solar  wrote:
> 
> Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to send 
> the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is reached. More 
> specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 60 or 72 Vnom 
> depending on array. Let the other controller remain in normal operation. Send 
> the unregulated array to bring initial battery voltage up; then the other 
> controller takes over and the one that was bypassed now is reconnected. 
> Better if the unregulated array is the smaller of the two, I would suspect.
> What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA 
> lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the 
> system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these Li-I, 
> as I have no experience with restoring them.   Daryl may well be right 
> about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the batteries may 
> need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is perhaps just food for 
> thought.
> 
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738 cell
> 
>> On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:
>> Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 
>> 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an 
>> older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in 
>> parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge 
>> controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were 
>> called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will 
>> not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made 
>> for lead acid batteries.  I’m looking at finding the way to charge the iCel  
>> batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from 
>> the batteries.  I think I’m making sense here. 
>> 
>> Blue Sky Energy
>> 
>> g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Sindelar Solar]

Gary, you might try an old-fashioned approach: bypass the controller to 
send the array straight to the batteries until threshold voltage is 
reached. More specifically, bypass one of the controllers; assuming 48, 
60 or 72 Vnom depending on array. Let the other controller remain in 
normal operation. Send the unregulated array to bring initial battery 
voltage up; then the other controller takes over and the one that was 
bypassed now is reconnected. Better if the unregulated array is the 
smaller of the two, I would suspect.


What I'm suggesting will work with flooded lead-acid, and likely VRLA 
lead-acid as well, as long as the unregulated array is taken out of the 
system before voltage exceeds bulk. It may not work at all with these 
Li-I, as I have no experience with restoring them. Daryl may well be 
right about being unrestorable below a threshold voltage; also the 
batteries may need an operational BMS to take a charge. So this is 
perhaps just food for thought.


Allan

--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gary Rochlin wrote:


Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa 
2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on 
an older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired 
in parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar 
Charge controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat 
before we were called in. Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the 
charge controller will not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V 
since at the time they were made for lead acid batteries.  I’m looking 
at finding the way to charge the iCel  batteries or goose the charge 
controller into thinking 40V are coming from the batteries.  I think 
I’m making sense here.


*Blue Sky Energy *

g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

Gary I have been told that below a certain voltage the LI-ion cells suffer
a permanent death.  I believe these batteries are small cells in
parallel.strings  and then series connected strings. to make the
voltage.can you use a lab power supply to start the charge?  I purchased
one for about 60 to 90 $ that allows me to adjust the voltage and limit the
current until the battery gets up to voltage IF it ever does..

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Gary Rochlin  wrote:

> Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa
> 2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an
> older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in
> parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge
> controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were
> called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will
> not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were
> made for lead acid batteries.  I’m looking at finding the way to charge the
> iCel  batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming
> from the batteries.  I think I’m making sense here.
>
>
>
> *Blue Sky Energy *
>
> g.rochlin@ blue-sky-energy.com
>
>
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Older iCel System Lithium Ion Batteries

[Gary Rochlin]

Does anyone have any information or specifications for an older circa
2010-2012 iCel System Lithium Ion Battery.  We are doing a repair on an
older 48V Lithium Ion system consisting of 3-6 ICel batteries wired in
parallel and 1 Xantrex 6848 and 2 Xantrex Conext MPPT 60 150 Solar Charge
controllers.  Via a surge from SCE system shut down and sat before we were
called in.  Batteries are sitting at 6.67V and the charge controller will
not turn on unless the batteries are at 40V since at the time they were made
for lead acid batteries.  I'm looking at finding the way to charge the iCel
batteries or goose the charge controller into thinking 40V are coming from
the batteries.  I think I'm making sense here.  

 

Blue Sky Energy 

  g.roch...@blue-sky-energy.com

 

 

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