An interesting comment regarding limited liability. Are you saying that liability
should not be limited, or are you saying it should be limited but they should pay for
it?
Also your comment about how Americans get their news. Is it any different in
Australia?
Bill
--
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003
errata:
If you are required to pay $120 annually in fees the APR is 12%... should have read:
If you are required to pay $120 annually in fees (on principal of $1000) the APR is
12%.
_
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I thank both Vic and Bruce for this discussion. I hope it continues.
--
(6) Money is a nothing. It is simply a man made
invention to exchange our goods and services as a step
above barter.
Here Douglas' system is closer to mainstream economics than to GT reasoning, in which
Money is a
We must be ever mindful of our predecessors, the pioneers and heroes who have preceded
us, and their sacrifice, so that we might have the chance for more abundant life.
The space program has brought us, and will bring us incalculable benefit. This very
message is being transmitted through part
For domestic spending, no, it doesn't ever have to. It
only has to compensate for an excess in effective
demand. The example of the movie theatre that can
seat 100 and that we have printed out 80 tickets for
is exactly right: as long as we do not print out 21
extra tickets, there is not a
Jessop, not speaking for Bruce, of course, I'll say
this.
The potential for capital outflow through trade
deficit has to be addressed by any Social Credit
regime.
A possible remedy is this:
The retail sales tax in Texas does not apply across
the board, there are exemptions for many items,
Attached is a reformatted version of the original that
Wally forwarded to me. It was about 350kb in Wally's
version. I've converted into a file of approximately
16kb that is able to be relayed through Topica.
Here Douglas refers to the diagnosis and treatment of
trade depression.
He also
The attached was posted to usenet earlier today.
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Douglas clearly says that the compensated price does
something that the national dividend alone cannot do.
No one has shown me what this is if it is not the
prevention of arbitrary price hikes. Bill Ryan calls
the compensated price a rhetorical reply, with which
I cannot agree at all. He
Dear Mr. Mosler,
As you may know, I have been highly critical of some of your positions.
You may state your case directly to our discussion
group by subscribing. You subscribe by sending a
blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You will receive confirmation that you are
subscribed. Then you may
John, social credit does not propose radical change to the financial system. By that
I mean the proposals of C. H. Douglas. What social credit proposes are financial
adjustments to equate productive capacity with real demand. That would be
conceptually no more difficult than leap year
Attached.
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==^
This email was sent
I do not disagree with you. I used the term zero
entrepreneurial profit, however, within the context
of hypothetical dynamic stasis. It is unrelated to
reality directly, but is nonetheless a step toward
building a conceptual model that will help us make
sense of reality.
Entrepreneurial
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Labor displacement is something we can predict. But
let's say there has been a credit collapse, for
whatever reason, such as that which occurred in the
years following the stock market crash in the United
States after 1929. The Social Credit adjustment
mechanisms
Unlike Douglas' argument, there is no need for an
expanding injection in the short term from either
credit or exports simply to pay the minimum
sustainable supply price of the product.
Assuming steady state, but Douglas' argument does not
assume steady
P.S. The debt-virus theory doesn't hold up under
close scrutiny for a closed micro-model of responsible
and fair people.
---
In other words, you agree with me on the technical
argument.
Social Credit is the policy of a philosophy.
The debt virus fallacy is a
1. Frances Hutchinson and Brian Burkitt, *The Political Economy of
Social Credit and Guild Socialism,* 1997: page 168.
...Social credit provided the central theme of the Cuanduine trilogy
of Eimar O'Duffy. The latter also published a social credit text,
*Life and Money,* described as a
C. H. Douglas, *The Monopoly of Credit* published 1931
We are now in a position to examine a fundamental
axiom of national finance as at present conducted,
which is that budgets must be balanced, by which is
meant that all Governmental expenditure must normally
be recovered from the
Quoting Gunnar Tomasson:
In the context of Say's Law, the concept of saving
means - and can only mean - one thing, namely, Factor
Investment in the economy's work in progress.
The financial or monetary counterpart of such
Saving comprises IOUs which Suppliers of Factor
Services receive from
I have archived at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/joseph-1934.txt A.
W. Joseph's 1934 address which was published in 1935
with this forward from C. H. Douglas:
FOREWORD
The famous division of Gaul into three parts has its
reflection in the aspects of monetary reform. There
is the
A. W. Joseph's Banking and Industry is archived at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/joseph-1934.txt
His A + B Theorem is at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/joseph-1935/joseph-
1935.txt and the accompanying diagrams are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/joseph-1935/
Now there are only
From Keynes' book *The General Theory*:
When employment increases, D1 will increase, but not
by so much as D; since when our income increases our
consumption increases also, but not by so much. The
key to our practical problem is to be found in this
psychological law. For it follows from this
At first glance the categorizations of those who
produce and consume as being the capitalists and
those who only consume being the workers might not
be self-evident.
In the orthodox taxonomy Income = Wages + Profit. It
is said that capitalists produce and consume from
their profit whereas
With reference to diagram-1 attached also archived at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/diagram-1.jpg
Every firm is individually making A1 payments and B
payments, the totality [see note 1] of which are
becoming translated into consumer income (A1 + A2).
Consumers are receiving A1
For the next week of so I will ask that we confine
our discussions to the specific points in Michael's
paper on municipal social credit recently posted to
this list. For reference it has been archived at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/lane-03-27-03.txt .
I think the discussion will help
I hope it is not serious. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
--
On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:06:13
Victor Bridger wrote:
Bill,
You are correct. It is not Social Credit. However, I will post my thoughts
but as it will entail some lengthy discussion I may have to send it in
parts. At the moment I am
I again invite discussion of Michael's municipal
social credit idea archived at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/lant-03-27-03.txt
which could help us to resolve in our minds not only
what is and what is not social credit, but derive
practical proposals for the implementation thereof.
From
I keep inserting typos into the link to Michael's
paper. I hope this is correct:
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/lane-03-27-03.txt
7. Hypothesis - The sawmill can dispense with
someone's labor and make a cheaper board today, but
the cheaper board won't become a cheaper chair till
They (together with their financiers) are
continuously scrapping proven structures of
production in reaction to the false perception that
demand from their customers for their products is
falling*, whereas, to the extent there is labor
displacement, it is financial demand that is falling,
This is the slightly cleaned up version of a post I
sent yesterday that for some reason didn't make it
through the Topica server. It might make it through
later but for now it seems to be trapped in the
matrix.
I think graphics has something to do with the failure
of some messages to
This is not good news. Factory orders are called a
leading indicator of things to come.
Factory Orders Fall Sharply
By REUTERS
Filed at 10:09 a.m. ET
WASHINGTON - New orders for U.S. factory goods posted
their largest drop in 17 months in April, the
--I wish to see the very informed members of this
list to concentrate on how the lack of a social
dividend contributes to the undoing of the U.S.
economy.--
At this stage the priority is to prevent the crash
which would have dire consequences indeed. We are in
an emergency situation though
--I thought I was the first to suggest that the A+B Theorem has to be taken in the context of continually advancing technology.--
You did not. Douglas did so before you more than eighty years ago.
--
- Original Message -
DATE: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 14:47:22
From: [EMAIL
. . . a movie theater with one hundred seats,
representing productive capacity. How many tickets
do you distribute for each performance to ensure that
productive capacity is fully utilized?
--Good question. Suppose a ticket is good for any
show, not just for a single performance, and there
Robert, the questions came from me--Bill--not Geoffrey.
Please understand that I regard you as something we in
a court of law would call a hostile witness. I do not
believe you are a straight shooter by any stretch of the
imagination.
--in the book of North et al., under the catchword
'double
http://www.geocities.com/double_circuit/braun-fischer
Robert, a follow-up to your earlier post today.
--Non genius found out the double entries. Long before
Pacioli, double entries were very well known to
everybody in business, from normal daily experiences,
which leave (or left also in these
--I see now that by "increment of association" is meant merely the universal understanding that "many hands make light work" and "two heads are better than one".--It's more than that, Keith. The point about the Increment is that it is unearned. We are talking about the distribution of income that
To be more consistent, I should have said something like "accrued" instead of "already earned." I had already said that the income represented by theincrement is unearned. It is income that is "due and payable" that is not distributed automatically through the incomes generated by production.
--Bill Ryan It is therefore okay to borrow money from the bankers to purchase stock to acquire ownership;--
That is not my position. It is my paraphrase of their position. It is not okay. Moreover, in the United States--with certain exceptions--it is illegal for banks to lend money to purchase
My understanding from Finlay I think is that
according to his will his papers were to be destroyed
upon his death.
He certainly wanted to avoid a cult of personality.
It was two years into the intense study of the
subject before I saw even a photograph of the man.
A few bits and pieces have
Even though they are so far apart, there is some congruence
between the two. For example, Mises's points about the
impossibility of economic calculation under socialism.
There are parallel passages I could point to. Douglas
derided socialist plans as Platonic abstractions.
There is no
--I see a note about opposition to credit expansion.
If two private parties engage in a contract in which
one provides a good or service in exchange for
credit, that is, a promise for a future good or
service, I do not think that in any way conflicts
with any statement of Mises.--
The Mises
--You wrote very confidently about the Mises
orientation. My reading drew rather different
conclusions, but rather than offer specific quotes of
Mises (translated in English),--
Much of his stuff was written directly into English.
Even though he had a strong Viennese accent, he could
write
That requires intervention prohibiting credit
expansion. It is a major contradiction in the so-
called libertarian philosophy.
--You are welcome to offer a quote, but again, if
you disagree, perhaps you would simply offer a clear
alternative. Maybe it is time for you to open one of
those
--In the US, the Treasury is forbidden by law to
sell new bonds to the central bank It may do so only
to roll over maturing bonds.--
It was my understanding that the Fed rarely if ever
holds bonds to maturity. It is continually buying
and selling through the Open Market Committee.
Milton
I propose we go through your logical chain step by
step. At this point it is impossible to get beyond
step number 2 without additional information.
--1. Government levies taxes (economy-wide) in order
to allow a certain portion of society, engaged in
activities there is no market for, to
Okay, I've looked at it in the list archives at
http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/pkt/2003II/msg00174.html .
In that post you refer to the three fundamental
axioms below. But below I see sixteen steps.
Before that you say:
I believe that axiomatically setting the What,
Why, and Who The
So you continue to avoid the question.
What are the three basic axioms upon which you base
your step 2?
Unless you state what they are, step number 2 is the
fundamental axiom upon which you base everything that
follows.
--
- Original Message -
DATE: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:19:08
--To be a self-liquidating accounting system for wealth, money should come in with production and go out with consumption: "cash credits shall be cancelled on the purchase of goods for consumption" and "credits required to finance production shall be...new credits relating to new production" (from
--Ryan's idea... [is] that purchasing power would continue to accumulate and never be used.--
Account balances represent income that has not been spent. As our account balances increase, more and more of our income has not been spent.
Think of a pipeline, from wellhead to refinery. The volume
One thing I've learned from this struggle is that it cannot be summarized. What we have from Douglas is in fact the terse summary of some very complex thought in the mind of a genius.
As to steady-state, most rebuttals to A + B take some superficial version of the theorem, and then apply to the
The Douglas theory is 1) that consumer income falls
in respect to the costs of production that reach the
retail counter in the flow of prices. The reason for
this is that account balances are accumulating in the
firms sector (due to what is generically called
'labor displacement') that are
Michael, these things are not so simple.
How can it be summarized into a shorter form than Douglas himself summarized it?
If you think it can be summarized in a "short explanation" that is meaningful to anyone, you're fooling yourself.
If you think this answer is flippant--so be it.
It's the best
Points in clarification:
--Douglas' analysis of the price-system reveals a
fundamental financial cost-accountancy defect under
the existing credit or money system which becomes
greater as the ratio of capital to labour increases-
-
The *defect* relates not to the ratio but change to
the
The justification for excessive industrialism is that it is necessary to pump money into the economy through employment to keep everything going.
The social credit alternative is that if money is pumped into the economy through the dividend, it is the people, through their vote in the market, for
--There is a continuum from extremely rich to
incredibly poor in society. If the continuum is
weighted too much at the rich end, balance in the
Price - Demand equation can be reached quickly, and
the level of the National Dividend will be reduced,
without the very poor ever deriving much
Wally, I see it in the archives. For some reason it
didn't reach my inbox.
I was bewildered by Michael's characterization that
you said something about the investment of savings
to pay off the loan.
--The two ways of financing production he describes
are (a) direct investment of savings in
--Bill, what is the role of RD and of marketing in
the social credit concept?--
The dividend and discount compensate for the endemic
shortage of purchasing power. That shortage raises
the level of competition beyond what would be
expected in a free market without the shortage.** It
is
--A basic income financed by new credits would be
inflationary without limitations on markup.--
Not true.
---original message---
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 11:59:16 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SOCIAL CREDIT] basicincome
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--Did Douglas not suggest a limitation on on
markups?--
I don't believe he did.
The quote you supply I do not believe is from
Douglas. It's not phrased the way he would put it.
It doesn't sound like him. Furthermore, it relates
to the discount program, not the dividend. There is
some
Douglas never said the "B equivalent" is created as an "interest bearing debt." In fact, Douglas never used the term "interest bearing debt." To prove me wrong find one instance from his thirty year public career where used the term. In *Economic Democracy* he referred to both "loan credit" and
Pretty kinky, yes, John, but it's the most powerful
political block in the country.
To them, most Christians are not Christians. To be a
Christian you have to be born again.
Jimmy Carter could give away the Panama Canal because
the Rapture was coming soon so it wouldn't matter
what happened
http://www.shopnetdaily.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1271
By Michael D. Evans
THE BOOK THAT KNOCKED HILLARY OFF THE #2 AMAZON SPOT!
In his smash best-seller Beyond Iraq: The next
move, Michael D. Evans clearly defines the roles
that America, Iraq and Israel play in the fulfillment
of Bible
--Maybe the banking industry cannot be blamed for
the full employment policy, at least not directly.
However they are the powers who create credit out of
thin air and then demand interest to be paid on it
thus keeping money supply overall artificially
scarce, which in turn drives the need for
Campbell, in respect to A+B, interest paid to a
financial institution is of no different substance
than any B payment made to any institution. The fact
that interest is charged on loans is not the source
of the gap between prices and purchasing power.
The gap would exist even at a zero rate
If you don't want to be called a clown, don't put
on the clown suit. This is the clown suit:
-I am not aware of any successful Jewish
bankers having died in German concentration
camps, I am aware though that Swiss banks who
dealt with Hitler's gold taken from dead Jews had
Jewish
-Statement of fact: All money is created as an
interest bearing debt to the financial system. ---
Statement of fact: It is a gross simplification and
distortion to say that all money is created as an
interest bearing debt.
Define: Interest bearing debt.
--
-What I wanted to
-I believe this understanding of new credits for
new production is shared by Wally, Bill Daly, and I.
Only Ryan dissents. ---
Don't be too quick to jump the gun, Michael. I
thought you said the flow of cash credits to
consumers must equal the flow of prices to the retail
counter. What I
-And I believe he's right about 'interest/usury' being mistaken as the sole cause of the problem by many so-called 'Social Credit groups. -
Forget about "sole cause." It is not even a cause--period--of the deficiency of purchasing power enunciated by Douglas.
The *cause* is the failure to
Because money is not debt but credit. The continuing
obligation is from debtor to creditor. For example,
your paycheck. But the check is good only at the
company store. You want to spend it at any store.
How is that accomplished?
--
- Original Message -
DATE: Tue, 17
Brief replies are inserted below.
--
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 00:08:21 -0400
From: Ekky Irion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dear Social Crediters,
I'm asking your help with understanding the aspect of
payments of interest in relation to shortage of money
supply. I'm stuck on this for several reasons.
Brief replies are inserted below:
--
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 08:57:55 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dear Friends,
Ekky asks about interest and conspiracy.
There's nothing wrong with his argument about
interest per se, and I believe it would be possible
for money to be created and lent
I'm in a hurry so can't spend a lot of time on this
at the moment, so I'll just insert some quick
comments below:
--
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:50:28 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SOCIAL CREDIT] newcredits
Dear Friends,
The moment that any of that money that was held in
Michael, I didn't say you quoted Gesell. It is true however your theories are closer
to Gesell than Douglas. I will grant you may not be aware of that.
As to Robertson, this is what you wrote this very morning in your ekkyquestions post:
Robertson also describes what he calls the Financial
As to the first Douglas quote, I should say it was a bit of rhetorical excess to a particular audience. The only similarity, however, between what I said and the Douglas quote is that the word "counterfeiter" is used in both. I've already posted to this list the photocopy ofa personal letter from
-I've had to swallow very hard to go on reading
Douglas when he makes scathing attacks on socialist
and trade unions, when from my personal experience I
know how many of those committed well-meaning
activists do their best not from a 'will to power',
but because of their compassion for
Michael LaneBanking is supposed to be an art and
a service. But quite apart from the fact that to
borrow money you have to pay interest and that money
does not existÂ…
Bill RyanFalse assumption.
Question - The quote by Douglas indicates that he
believed that banks create money. How is that
Michael, lighten up. This is not a debating
organization. Nor is it a chat group. It is a
discussion forum where the participants are seeking
to learn about social credit and related matters.
I did not accuse you of being a follower of Lenin and
Trotsky. What I did say was your municipal
In the quoted Dictatorship by Taxation address,
Douglas was utilizing a rhetorical device--a kind of
metaphor about the philosophy of banking--to drive
home the point that the money they lend is not their
money, but public property. The lending process
serves a public purpose that should
Why are you ignoring these two very simple
questions? If no response is received I'll have to
assume that you don't know.
That would not be a logical inference. It would
merely mean I did not answer.
--
1. How does money come into existence?
There are many ways that it does and many ways it
If nothing in the future exists today it follows
that the interest I have to pay in the future does
not exist today.
Not necessarily. It may or it may not exist today.
--
If I am the only person borrowing $1000 at 10% I
am required to repay $1100 in one year's time. UNLESS
either I borrow
I presume the rules of compound interest would
apply if the loan was not fully paid within one year.
One year has nothing to do with it.
Let's say the loan is for $100,000 at 5% payable
yearly over ten years. At the end of the first year
you would owe one tenth of the principal plus five
Question: Where does the interest paid by
commercial banks to their investment depositors come
from?
Their own pockets, their profit-loss account. It is
paid from the bank account they keep with themselves.
--
Please explain! Most of the nation's money supply
is credit existing in the
If I were to guess...it might have something to do
with keeping the money out of that 'jam jar in the
back yard', and in circulation.
This was Silvio Gesell's proposition picked up by
Keynes.
We may take the jam jar to be metaphor for income
received that has not been spent for the
Joe, these are interesting quotes from Douglas. You
juxtapose them against my statements. None of the
Douglas quotes contradict my statements.
I've interjected some commentary below:
--
C H Douglas, The New and the Old Economics : ~
The method by which most modern financing is done,
under
Are you saying that money has not (yet) been
created at the point where an individual bank has
notified a borrower that it has made a deposit in
his/her account with that bank following a successful
loan transaction? If so, at what stage and in which
circumstances would you say that money has
-Call me a crank well-meaning or not, Bill, but
over time debt has compounded, or where else do most
massive government debts all over the world stem
from?..And now you can call me silly as well, but
would dividends paid to individuals and producers not
simply be an opportunity for the
I've attached below pictorial renditions of the
standard circular flow model and Douglas' model of
the double circuit, which are archived at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium .
Both are divided into three primary sectors:
financial (B), firms (M) and consumers (C).
I direct your
The problem, Michael, is that you were probably on the
wrong list from the beginning. Your municipal social
credit scheme is simply a variation of sovietism as
advocated by Lenin, Trotsky, et al. which they
practiced before and after the October revolution till
Stalin came along. So it's
Note to the list:
If you go through the archives from the beginning you
will find that a great number of persons--many of
them familiar to you as internet cranks--have posted
one or two messages and then you will see no further
messages from that person in the archives.
The purpose of this
Not a buildup of goods--that wasn't the proposition.
Producers cut back on production and sell at some
price what has been produced.
The debt steadily increases until the bubble bursts
and cancels the debt.
The Bank of Japan is contemplating purchasing and
writing off the inventory of
[Thomson] Sure the interest is the bank's profit, but
did not Douglas believe that bank profit should be
restricted to something like a fee on turnover, or
for their administration of the loan?
--
No.
[Thomson] The interest, if there is to be interest
aside from those fees, would
[Thomson] Both the chicken and the egg are 'wealth',
and regardless of which came first, initially a
product of Creation's 'natural law'...
--
The point is that it is a fallacy to say that either
comes first. In a continuous process both eggs and
chickens are being produced
[Ekky] Such disagreements are obviously not
peculiar/particular to Marx's or Douglas' ideas, but
I've made this connection deliberately, because they
do connect (and here, in this explanation quoted form
the Norwegian philosopher Jostein Gaarder who tries
to explain Marx in simple language
For some reason John Hermann's first message earlier
today came through garbled through the Topica server,
which is not very good with anything other than
plain text.
Here it is:
--
06-26-03
Truth is rarely pure and never simple. What you have
said contains truth, but not the whole truth.
Wally, the publication date is 1957--after Douglas's
death.
It is mostly rhetorical bombast and nonsense.
It is the rejection of the A+B theorem and its
replacement by the brainless debt virus thesis.
It is therefore the rejection of Douglas.
It is further evidence that few of the social
John, the sentences below from Vic are perfectly
correct as they stand. It is what you make of them
that may or may not be correct.
Most definitely, this is not correct:
-The principal created by the bank in loan B must be
greater than the principal created in loan A by an
amount at least
Douglas states facts. It is what you make of those
facts that is or is not the argument with Douglas.
If you take the statements to mean that Douglas is
saying that interest or bank financing should be
abolished, you are arguing against Douglas--for
Douglas
Below is H.M.M.s article on A+B from 1935, reduced
to a 50KB text file from its original 1.5MB pdf
format.
It is also archived at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium/hmm1.txt
It boggles my mind that this could be written by the
same person who wrote the chapter published twenty-
two
---Bill, why should the community pay interest on
something that has been created out of thin air? ---
Every contract is created out of thin air.
---The point is that all money is created as debt to
the banking system. Douglas recognised this but
unfortunately Bill you do not!---
How do
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