[Biofuel] Ethanol is the wrong solution
http://canadafreepress.com/article/ethanol-is-the-wrong-solution Using government mandates and subsidies to promote politically favored fuels de jour is a waste of taxpayers' money Ethanol is the wrong solution By Marita Noon —— Bio and Archives September 5, 2016 University of Michigan’s Energy Institute research professor John DeCicco, Ph.D., believes that rising carbon dioxide emissions are causing global warming and, therefore, humans must find a way to reduce its levels in the atmosphere‚Äîbut ethanol is the wrong solution. According to his just-released study, political support for biofuels, particularly ethanol, has exacerbated the problem instead of being the cure it was advertised to be. DeCicco and his co-authors assert: “Contrary to popular belief, the heat-trapping carbon dioxide gas emitted when biofuels are burned is not fully balanced by the CO2 uptake that occurs as the plants grow.” The presumption that biofuels emit significantly fewer greenhouse gases (GHG) than gasoline does is, according to DeCicco: “misguided.” His research, three years in the making, including extensive peer-review, has upended the conventional wisdom and angered the alternative fuel lobbyists. The headline-grabbing claim is that biofuels are worse for the climate than gasoline. Past bipartisan support for ethanol was based on two, now false, assumptions. First, based on fears of waning oil supplies, alternative fuels were promoted to increase energy security. DeCicco points out: “Every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan has backed programs to develop alternative transportation fuels.” Now, in the midst of a global oil glut, we know that hydraulic fracturing has been the biggest factor in America’s new era of energy abundance‚Äînot biofuels. Additionally, ethanol has been championed for its perceived reduction in GHG. Using a new approach, DeCicco and his researchers, conclude: “rising U.S. biofuel use has been associated with a net increase rather than a net decrease in CO2 emissions.” DeCicco has been focused on this topic for nearly a decade. In 2007, when the Energy Independence and Security Act (also known as the expanded ethanol mandate) was in the works, he told me: “I realized that something seemed horribly amiss with a law that established a sweeping mandate which rested on assumptions, not scientific fact, that were unverified and might be quite wrong, even though they were commonly accepted and politically correct (and politically convenient).” Having spent 20 years as a green group scientist, DeCicco has qualified green bona fides. From that perspective he saw that while biofuels sounded good, no one had checked the math. Previously, based on life cycle analysis (LCA), it has been assumed that crop-based biofuels, were not just carbon neutral, but actually offered modest net GHG reductions. This, DeCicco says, is the “premise of most climate related fuel policies promulgated to date, including measures such as the LCFS [California’s Low Carbon Fuel Standard] and RFS [the federal Renewable Fuel Standard passed in 2005 and expanded in 2007].” The DeCicco study differs from LCA‚Äîwhich assumes that any carbon dioxide released from a vehicle’s tailpipe as a result of burning biofuel is absorbed from the atmosphere by the growing of the crop. In LCA, biofuel use is modeled as a static system, one presumed to be in equilibrium with the atmosphere in terms of its material carbon flow. The Carbon balance effects of U.S. biofuel production and use study uses Annual Basis Carbon (ABC) accounting‚Äîwhich does not treat biofuels as inherently carbon neutral. Instead, it treats biofuels as “part of a dynamic stock-and-flow system.” Its methodology “tallies CO2 emissions based on the chemistry in the specific locations where they occur.” In May, on my radio program, DeCicco explained: “Life Cycle Analysis is wrong because it fails to actually look at what is going on at the farms.” In short, DeCicco told me: “Biofuels get a credit they didn’t deserve; instead they leave a debit.” The concept behind DeCicco’s premise is that the idea of ethanol being carbon neutral assumes that the ground where the corn is grown was barren dirt (without any plants removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere) before the farmer decided to plant corn for ethanol. If that were the case, then, yes, planting corn on that land, converting that corn to ethanol that is then burned as a vehicle fuel, might come close to being carbon neutral. But the reality is that land already had corn, or some other crop, growing on it‚Äîso that land’s use was already absorbing CO2. You can’t count it twice. DeCicco explains “Growing the corn that becomes ethanol absorbs no more carbon from the air than the corn that goes into cattle feed or corn flakes. Burning the ethanol releases essentially the same amount of CO2 as burning gasoline. No less CO2 went into the air from the
[Biofuel] Ethanol Producer Magazine – The Latest News and Data About Ethanol Production
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/13164/nrel-updates-survey-of-advanced-biofuel-producers NREL updates survey of advanced biofuel producers By Erin Voegele | March 18, 2016 The National Renewable Energy Laboratory has updated its annual survey of U.S. non-starch ethanol and renewable hydrocarbon biofuel producers. The report, titled “2015 Survey of Non-Starch Ethanol and Renewable Hydrocarbon Biofuel Producers,” provides an inventory of the domestic advanced biofuels industry as of the end of 2015. The original survey, which includes 2013 data, was published at the end of 2014. According to information released by the U.S. Department of Energy, NREL surveyed 114 companies last year. The questionnaire included topics such as facility stage of development, facility scale, feedstock, and biofuel products. Industry experts from NREL and the DOE validated the results and compared them with publicly available data. According to the report, NREL and DOE supplemented missing survey data with publicly available data obtained from company websites, press releases and public filings, when possible. The survey effort resulted in 61 facilities with sufficient data to be included in the report. This includes 27 cellulosic ethanol facilities, two algae-derived ethanol facilities, and 32 renewable hydrocarbon facilities. According to the report, 11 of the 29 non-starch ethanol plants were operational last year, with five at commercial scale. In addition, 12 of the 32 renewable hydrocarbon facilities were operational as of the end of 2015. The commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plants addressed in the report include those under development or operation by Abengoa, Ace Ethanol (Sweetwater Energy Inc.), Beta Renewables Inc., Canergy, DuPont, Enerkem, Front Range Energy (Sweetwater Energy Inc.), INEOS New Plant Bioenergy LLC, Pacific Ethanol (Sweetwater Energy Inc.); Poet, Quad County Corn, and ZeaChem. Commercial-scale hydrocarbon facilities addressed in the report include AltAir Fuels, Cool Planet Energy Systems, Diamond Green Diesel, Emerald Biofuels, Fulcrum BioEnergy, KiOR, Red Rock Biofuels, Renewable Energy Group Inc., two SG Preston projects; and Sundrop Fuels. The survey includes data on project locations, technology pathways, feedstock, planned capacity and target startup dates. It also breaks down the 61 facilities according to scale and current development status. A full copy of the report can be downloaded from the NREL website. http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/65519.pdf ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions - Breitbart
When I was a member of the local municipal Consumer Advisory Panel on waste management, this was an annual battle. The City would hire a consultant automaton to review the financials on recycling programs (as part of waste diversion). Every year, the consultant would report the recycling program was losing money, so as a good business owner, the City should stop the program. Every year, I and others would respond with 2 key points. 1) The City government is not a business, and is not supposed to operating as a for-profit enterprise. It's job is to provide services to residents (not customers) at a reasonable cost to achieve other benefits (e.g., improved health due to better sanitation related to residential garbage collection). Somehow, we never got presented with a proposal to stop collecting garbage because it did not make a profit. 2) The financial benefit from recycling programs was never about the money we got from selling the collected recyclables; it's about extending the life of the landfill site so we could avoid opening another one for 20-30 years. A site which would much further away and more expensive than the costing for the current sites, which had been set up 20 to 40 years previously. I posted this article because I saw it as so obviously going over the edge, and on multiple topics. However, it represents a lot of other material I am seeing of late - typically on just 1 or 2 points, but similarly fact-free when it comes to providing support for the arguments made. As for climate change, I'm really tired of seeing industry-sponsored spin pieces claiming it is much less expensive to do nothing than to make changes to slow or mitigate climate change. I'll buy it's easier to do nothing than do something, but I think we're past the point where we can easily argue it's cheaper to keep pumping out the CO2 than not. In reality, the real argument is about what future we want (a habitable planet or not), but that's one the spinmeisters know they cannot win. Darryl On 10/26/2015 10:23 AM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Hmm. Leaving aside the corn based biofuels issue, which I kind of agree is a bit stupid, his arguments on recycling just don't make sense. Several times, he mentions that the environmental benefit is not there and implies that recycling costs more carbon than it saves... but never gives any actual numbers to back this up -- turning back to whether the cost is worth it several times, and then going off into avoiding emissions from airplanes and electric cars as if that has anything to do with recycling. He also seems to assume that all trash ends up in nice regulated landfills, not in the ocean or on sides of roads. And I'm really baffled by his hatred of reusable bags... Z On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Darryl McMahonwrote: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/22/ethanol-recycling-climate-change-expensive-illusions/ Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions by John Hayward 22 Oct 2015 The Left is always trying to claim the mantle of unimpeachable scientific authority for its causes, especially those with an academic veneer, such as environmentalism. It should matter a great deal if their preferred policies are effective, and while we argue about the possibilities of a subject such as climate change, the effectiveness of programs which have been in place for many years should be analyzed dispassionately. Instead, demonstrably ineffective, inefficient, and even counter-productive policies, such as biofuels and recycling, persist because they “seem right” or “feel good.” The growing movement to ban plastic bags and replace them with reusable grocery bags operates under the same nonsensical rules of engagement. John Tierney recently wrote a lengthy analysis of recycling for the New York Times, as a follow-up to a 20-year old piece in which he first presented evidence that “recycling was costly and ineffectual.” The modern recycling regime was still fairly new in 1996, so Tierney gamely waited twenty years before assembling a larger stack of results and passing judgment on the process. He found nothing to change his conclusions: Despite decades of exhortations and mandates, it’s still typically more expensive for municipalities to recycle household waste than to send it to a landfill. Prices for recyclable materials have plummeted because of lower oil prices and reduced demand for them overseas. The slump has forced some recycling companies to shut plants and cancel plans for new technologies. The mood is so gloomy that one industry veteran tried to cheer up her colleagues this summer with an article in a trade journal titled, “Recycling Is Not Dead!” While politicians set higher and higher goals, the national rate of recycling has stagnated in recent years. Yes, it’s popular in affluent neighborhoods like Park Slope in Brooklyn and in cities like San Francisco,
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions - Breitbart
Hmm. Leaving aside the corn based biofuels issue, which I kind of agree is a bit stupid, his arguments on recycling just don't make sense. Several times, he mentions that the environmental benefit is not there and implies that recycling costs more carbon than it saves... but never gives any actual numbers to back this up -- turning back to whether the cost is worth it several times, and then going off into avoiding emissions from airplanes and electric cars as if that has anything to do with recycling. He also seems to assume that all trash ends up in nice regulated landfills, not in the ocean or on sides of roads. And I'm really baffled by his hatred of reusable bags... Z On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Darryl McMahonwrote: > > http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/22/ethanol-recycling-climate-change-expensive-illusions/ > > Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions > > by John Hayward 22 Oct 2015 > > The Left is always trying to claim the mantle of unimpeachable scientific > authority for its causes, especially those with an academic veneer, such as > environmentalism. > > It should matter a great deal if their preferred policies are effective, > and while we argue about the possibilities of a subject such as climate > change, the effectiveness of programs which have been in place for many > years should be analyzed dispassionately. > > Instead, demonstrably ineffective, inefficient, and even > counter-productive policies, such as biofuels and recycling, persist > because they “seem right” or “feel good.” The growing movement to ban > plastic bags and replace them with reusable grocery bags operates under the > same nonsensical rules of engagement. > > John Tierney recently wrote a lengthy analysis of recycling for the New > York Times, as a follow-up to a 20-year old piece in which he first > presented evidence that “recycling was costly and ineffectual.” The modern > recycling regime was still fairly new in 1996, so Tierney gamely waited > twenty years before assembling a larger stack of results and passing > judgment on the process. He found nothing to change his conclusions: > > Despite decades of exhortations and mandates, it’s still typically > more expensive for municipalities to recycle household waste than to send > it to a landfill. Prices for recyclable materials have plummeted because of > lower oil prices and reduced demand for them overseas. The slump has forced > some recycling companies to shut plants and cancel plans for new > technologies. The mood is so gloomy that one industry veteran tried to > cheer up her colleagues this summer with an article in a trade journal > titled, “Recycling Is Not Dead!” > > While politicians set higher and higher goals, the national rate of > recycling has stagnated in recent years. Yes, it’s popular in affluent > neighborhoods like Park Slope in Brooklyn and in cities like San Francisco, > but residents of the Bronx and Houston don’t have the same fervor for > sorting garbage in their spare time. > > The future for recycling looks even worse. As cities move beyond > recycling paper and metals, and into glass, food scraps and assorted > plastics, the costs rise sharply while the environmental benefits decline > and sometimes vanish. “If you believe recycling is good for the planet and > that we need to do more of it, then there’s a crisis to confront,” says > David P. Steiner, the chief executive officer of Waste Management, the > largest recycler of household trash in the United States. “Trying to turn > garbage into gold costs a lot more than expected. We need to ask ourselves: > What is the goal here?” > > When the CEO of the largest recycling company openly speculates that his > expensive service isn’t actually delivering the sought-after environmental > value, it seems like rather big news. We are always told to distrust > arguments from interest – in other words, we’re supposed to instinctively > distrust anything positive an oil company says about oil consumption, no > matter how much rock-solid data the company can muster. Isn’t it noteworthy > that a company would advance such a profound argument against interest? > > As Tierney goes on to demonstrate, the environmental benefit from most > recycling is absurdly small, providing the example of an air passenger who > would have to recycle 40,000 plastic bottles in order to offset the carbon > emissions from a single round-trip flight from New York to London. (There > must be over a thousand people a day flying that particular route, which > adds up to a lot of plastic bottles.) > > Also, the very act of preparing and recycling trash has a significant > environmental impact, which is simply ignored by environmental evangelists, > the same way they completely ignore the carbon emissions necessary to > charge electric cars. Clearly, this curious religion believes that energy > and emissions are sanctified based on
[Biofuel] Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions - Breitbart
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/22/ethanol-recycling-climate-change-expensive-illusions/ Ethanol, Recycling, Climate Change and Other Expensive Illusions by John Hayward 22 Oct 2015 The Left is always trying to claim the mantle of unimpeachable scientific authority for its causes, especially those with an academic veneer, such as environmentalism. It should matter a great deal if their preferred policies are effective, and while we argue about the possibilities of a subject such as climate change, the effectiveness of programs which have been in place for many years should be analyzed dispassionately. Instead, demonstrably ineffective, inefficient, and even counter-productive policies, such as biofuels and recycling, persist because they “seem right” or “feel good.” The growing movement to ban plastic bags and replace them with reusable grocery bags operates under the same nonsensical rules of engagement. John Tierney recently wrote a lengthy analysis of recycling for the New York Times, as a follow-up to a 20-year old piece in which he first presented evidence that “recycling was costly and ineffectual.” The modern recycling regime was still fairly new in 1996, so Tierney gamely waited twenty years before assembling a larger stack of results and passing judgment on the process. He found nothing to change his conclusions: Despite decades of exhortations and mandates, it’s still typically more expensive for municipalities to recycle household waste than to send it to a landfill. Prices for recyclable materials have plummeted because of lower oil prices and reduced demand for them overseas. The slump has forced some recycling companies to shut plants and cancel plans for new technologies. The mood is so gloomy that one industry veteran tried to cheer up her colleagues this summer with an article in a trade journal titled, “Recycling Is Not Dead!” While politicians set higher and higher goals, the national rate of recycling has stagnated in recent years. Yes, it’s popular in affluent neighborhoods like Park Slope in Brooklyn and in cities like San Francisco, but residents of the Bronx and Houston don’t have the same fervor for sorting garbage in their spare time. The future for recycling looks even worse. As cities move beyond recycling paper and metals, and into glass, food scraps and assorted plastics, the costs rise sharply while the environmental benefits decline and sometimes vanish. “If you believe recycling is good for the planet and that we need to do more of it, then there’s a crisis to confront,” says David P. Steiner, the chief executive officer of Waste Management, the largest recycler of household trash in the United States. “Trying to turn garbage into gold costs a lot more than expected. We need to ask ourselves: What is the goal here?” When the CEO of the largest recycling company openly speculates that his expensive service isn’t actually delivering the sought-after environmental value, it seems like rather big news. We are always told to distrust arguments from interest – in other words, we’re supposed to instinctively distrust anything positive an oil company says about oil consumption, no matter how much rock-solid data the company can muster. Isn’t it noteworthy that a company would advance such a profound argument against interest? As Tierney goes on to demonstrate, the environmental benefit from most recycling is absurdly small, providing the example of an air passenger who would have to recycle 40,000 plastic bottles in order to offset the carbon emissions from a single round-trip flight from New York to London. (There must be over a thousand people a day flying that particular route, which adds up to a lot of plastic bottles.) Also, the very act of preparing and recycling trash has a significant environmental impact, which is simply ignored by environmental evangelists, the same way they completely ignore the carbon emissions necessary to charge electric cars. Clearly, this curious religion believes that energy and emissions are sanctified based on the intentions, and inherent nobility, of the consumer. Conversely, the evils that recycling is supposed to prevent are largely imaginary, conjurations of emotion and perception rather than cold reason. Tierney zeroes in on the alleged menace of landfills, which in reality consume very little acreage, and have minimal environmental impact with modern technology… but they look, and more importantly sound, icky. An incredible amount of wealth and productivity in America is lost on madcap efforts to avoid things that sound icky. Biofuel, on the other hand, is a classic example of argument from corporate interest, pushed by the sort of well-connected special interests that politicians constantly rail against… but they are never portrayed that way in politicized media. Biofuels are incredibly expensive, inefficient, and sometimes
[Biofuel] Ethanol Study Concludes the EPA’s Biofuel Standard Created ‘More Problems Than Solutions’ | TheBlaze.com
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/10/20/ethanol-study-concludes-the-epas-biofuel-standard-created-more-problems-than-solutions/ [links in on-line article] Ethanol Study Concludes the EPA’s Biofuel Standard Created ‘More Problems Than Solutions’ Oct. 20, 2015 11:07am Liz Klimas On the 10-year anniversary of the federal Renewable Fuel Standard, a team of researchers released a study that concludes the policy created “more problems than solutions.” The report issued last week — “10-Year Review of the Renewable Fuels Standard” — by Drs. Daniel De La Torre Ugarte and Burton English at the University of Tennessee’s Institute of Agriculture takes a look at the environmental, economic and industry effects of the RFS. “Our analysis shows that the RFS has created more problems than solutions, particularly with regard to hampering advancements in biofuels. Corn ethanol was presented as a ‘bridge’ to advanced biofuels and a means of reducing GHG emissions,” De La Torre Ugarte said in a statement, referencing a comment made by former EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson. “However, the reality is clear that this policy has been a bridge to nowhere.” The RFS, signed by then President George W. Bush in 2005 was followed by further legislation — the Energy Independence and Security Act — in 2007. The legislation grew the corn-based ethanol industry from 3.9 billion gallons in 2005 to 14.3 billion gallons in 2014, according to the study. Of all the nation’s biofuel production, ethanol comprises 87 percent as of 2014. The report stated that ethanol has “failed to meet expectations across a number of metrics that include air pollutants, water contamination and soil erosion.” The study cited conflicting research regarding the lifecycle of ethanol’s greenhouse gas emissions compared to that of traditional gasoline and notes that while it has been shown to reduce some pollutants, others have been shown to increase during the biofuel’s lifecycle, the study stated. From an economic standpoint, the study authors noted some localized economic benefits along with some significant losses. Since 2005, the ethanol industry has been supported with $50 billion in subsidies, the report stated. “Our analysis shows that the corn ethanol industry, even with its tremendous growth over the past decade and technology maturity, cannot survive in any real commercial sense without mandated fuel volume requirements,” the authors wrote. Bankruptcies that hit some ethanol refineries during a decrease in oil prices in 2008 and 2009, also reversed some of the economic benefits communities had once seen. And finally, the study authors concluded that the focus on corn-based ethanol has “stymied the growth of advanced biofuels by receiving substantial RFS targets (10 percent of fuel by volume), essentially retarding the growth of the advanced biofuels sector.” The study authors admitted the hardship of bringing advanced biofuels to the market, but wrote that they would allow the Renewable Fuel Standards’ objectives to be better met. “After 10 years of the RFS and its missed objectives, it is time to re-think the design, structure and practical implementation of the RFS and examine whether other policy designs may be more appropriate for promoting the production and consumption of advanced biofuels,” wrote the researchers, whose work was funded by the American Council for Capital Formation, which is a member of the Smarter Fuel Future coalition. English said in a statement that an over reliance on corn ethanol has “restricted the growth and maturation of the advanced biofuel industry, resulting in fewer environmental and economic benefits.” Renewable Fuels Association, which supports the ethanol industry, said this study by the University of Tennessee was “big-oil funded.” “Over the past decade the Renewable Fuel Standard has proven time and time again why it is our nation’s most successful energy policy,” Geoff Cooper, RFA senior vice president, said in a statement. “Its impact on our nation’s energy security, economy, and environment is unmatched. The RFS was passed by a bi-partisan Congress and signed into law by President George W. Bush with the goal of ensuring that biofuels have a place in a market that is overwhelmingly and unfairly dominated by Big Oil.” The same week this report was released, the EPA’s Office of Inspector General announced that it would conduct research on the lifecycle impact of the RFS. The inspector general’s audit will determine whether the EPA “complied with the reporting requirements of laws authorizing the Renewable Fuel Standard” and if it “updated the lifecycle analysis supporting the RFS with findings from the statutorily mandated National Academy of Sciences” in 2011. In 2011, the NAS released a study that found not only were the policies “ineffective…for reducing global GHG emissions,” but they were unlikely to meet
[Biofuel] Ethanol and biodiesel can be sustainably produced from algae
http://www.balkans.com/open-news.php?uniquenumber=207346 Ethanol and biodiesel can be sustainably produced from algae The BIOFAT project – which runs until April 2016 – has confirmed algae's potential as a sustainable source of biofuel and bio-products with low greenhouse gas emissions. Pilot-scale processing facilities, each one-half hectare in size, were constructed in Italy and Portugal, and a scaled-up 10-hectare demonstration facility is currently being finalised. Sustainability has been the key factor throughout the project, with consortium partners focusing on environmental issues (such as the use of marine strains of algae to limit freshwater use) and economic issues (such as achieving low energy consumption). These plants have demonstrated exactly how generating biofuels from algae technologies will work from an economic standpoint, and shown that large-scale microalgae production platforms can be operated efficiently. Green algae – a common garden pond nuisance – have immense potential as a new sustainable and affordable energy source. Key benefits include the fact that algae are among the fastest growing photosynthetic organisms. They can double their numbers every few hours and can be harvested daily, and have the potential to produce a volume of biomass and biofuel many times greater than that of our most productive crops. Algae also store energy in the form of oils and carbohydrates, which, combined with their high productivity, means they can produce from 2 000 to as many as 5 000 gallons of biofuels per acre per year. Algae produce oils that can be converted into biodiesel and carbohydrates, which can then be fermented into ethanol. After oil extraction, the remaining algal biomass can be dried and ‘pelletized’ and used as fuel that is burned in industrial boilers and other power generation sources. Algae can also be cultivated to produce a variety of products for large to small markets: plastics, chemical feedstocks, lubricants, fertilizers, and even cosmetics. BIOFAT is part of a concerted effort by the EU to tap into alternative forms of energy, in order to effectively address issues such as climate change and the impact of fuel crops on food production and land use change. The project is one of three large-scale industry-led initiatives aimed at demonstrating the production of algal biofuels along the whole value chain, covering strain selection to algae cultivation and production, oil extraction, biofuel production and biofuel testing in transportation applications. Key findings from this so-called ‘Algae Cluster’ were discussed at the Third European Workshop on LCA (life cycle assessments) for Algal Biofuels and Biomaterials in May 2015 in Brussels, Belgium. The workshop addressed issues relating to up-scaling, a central concern of the BIOFAT project reports Europa. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
[Biofuel] Ethanol Producer Magazine – The Latest News and Data About Ethanol Production
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/12187/urban-air-initiative-partners-in-clean-fuels-omaha-campaign Urban Air Initiative partners in Clean Fuels Omaha campaign By Urban Air Initiative | May 04, 2015 The Urban Air Initiative joined with a broad cross section of public and private interest groups supporting the call for more aggressive regional pollution control measures in the Omaha-Council Bluffs area. Working together as Clean Fuels Omaha, the campaign was launched to support measures outlined this week by the Metropolitan Area Planning Agency. The Metropolitan Area Planning Agency is a coordinating organization for government officials of the region to address a range of issues. One of the programs of MAPA is the Little Steps-Big Impact Air Quality Initiative, which is an annual campaign to educate the public on the impacts of ground level ozone on air quality, and the steps that can be taken to reduce emissions. MAPA has recognized that transportation fuels are a major source of our pollution problems, said Dave VanderGriend, president of the Urban Air Initiative and a partner in the Clean Fuels Omaha Campaign. The Small Steps program is just that—small steps that can have a big impact. Choosing alternative fuels like ethanol and biodiesel is something each of us can do to help clean the air and protect public health. Gasoline and diesel produce particulates that are classified as ozone precursors. In addition, these particulates are carriers of airborne toxics that are linked to a wide range of health concerns ranging from asthma to autism. Just this week the American Lung Association released its annual state of the Air Report and concluded that more than 138 million people in the U.S. are living in areas classified as unhealthy or as having poor air quality. By increasing the use of biodiesel in buses and industrial applications, and filling up with E10, E15, and for flex fuel vehicles, even higher blends like E30, we can make a difference,” said VanderGriend. He also detailed some of the sanctions that come with an ozone non-attainment classification, such as a limit on business development and potential driving restrictions. Partners in the campaign to date include the Nebraska Ethanol Board, the Nebraska Corn Board, the Nebraska Ethanol Industry Coalition, the Nebraska Soybean Growers, the Clean Fuels Development Coalition, and the Urban Air Initiative. For more information on clean fuels and the availability of ethanol and biodiesel, visit www.fixourfuel.com/omaha or LIKE us on Facebook. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility
Robert, Thanks for the reply. Mechanics is not my strong point. David Blume explains the steps required to convert engines with carburetors to run on ethanol (Alcohol Can Be A Gas pp364-374) but once converted the engine will run well on ethanol but not on gasoline. -Original Message- From: robert and benita rabello rabe...@shaw.ca Sent: 7/29/2014 9:01 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility On 7/29/2014 2:55 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Will a phantom system and/or Megasquirt adjust on the fly to varying ethanol concentrations? (E0 through E100) No, I don't believe so. That's where the factory flex fuel system really shines. Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ceremonies and Celebrations video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7945 - Release Date: 07/29/14 ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility
Robert, I don't think you'll get much argument re: your contention that any OBDII vehicle can run E85, the question is for how long. I only waded through the study you cited, but some points should be made: 1. It looked at exhaust emissions from 16 vehicles comparing low ethanol/gasoline blends blends of 10%(E10), 15%(E15) and 20%(E20) to gasoline (E0). Changes in exhaust emissions indicated that the vehicles did make fuel:air adjustments i.e. they learned to run on the ethanol blends. The study did not include E85. 2. The authors state that the study did not include an operability component and while they point out that there were no observed leaks in any of the vehicles, they also state that the vehicles were only driven about 200 miles on the ethanol blends. 3. 6 of the 16 vehicles did not make adjustments at wide open throttle and emissions were consistently hotter as these vehicles ran at lean blends. None of this is real news. Here in the US we've been running our cars on E10 (gasohol) sine '83. A couple of years ago I bought a piece of lab equipment - a '99 Ford Ranger; flex fuel version. It loves E85. When I go from E10 to E85, you can hear the engine settle in to it. It almost instantly adjusts to whatever blend I feed it. The owner of the station that sells me the E85 told me that when he started selling E85 he filled up the tank of his family car. It ran a bit rough for a few miles, but then ran fine. He wouldn't run more than a tankful or two ... went on about seals and fuel lines. Same message from some reliable mechanics: E10 no problem. E85 is a different story. So, will newer model vehicles run on E85? Probably. We certainly want them to run at various temps and altitudes and for more than 200, 1000, or even 10,000 miles. Interesting info in the study you cited regarding small engines running on the lower ethanol blends. Many will not run on blends as low as E20 w/o adjustment ex raise fuel tank relative to engine and/or adjusting idle settings. Even with adjustments the engines run hot resulting in increased emissions of oxides of nitrogen and shorter lifespans for the engines. I'm not opposed to ethanol. I'm especially interested in ethanol that is produced at various levels of scale including homebrew utilizing feedstock from the waste stream. I look forward to the day when I can purchase E85 made from something other than food. Best to You, Tom I maintain that any OBDII vehicle can run E85. If your check engine light comes on, reset it and keep driving. (It's usually an O2 sensor that triggers the light.) The onboard computer WILL adapt. Here's what the NREL had to say on the matter: http://www.scribd.com/doc/117331392/Effects-of-Intermediate-Ethanol-Blends There are no E85 pumps in British Columbia. The best we can do is E10, which is only advertised as available at Husky. Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ceremonies and Celebrations video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7939 - Release Date: 07/28/14 ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility
Another reason to replace one's OBD (should one be so cursed) with a phantom system ... -D From: Thomas Kelly ontheh...@fairpoint.net To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, 29 July 2014, 16:30 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility Robert, I don't think you'll get much argument re: your contention that any OBDII vehicle can run E85, the question is for how long. I only waded through the study you cited, but some points should be made: 1. It looked at exhaust emissions from 16 vehicles comparing low ethanol/gasoline blends blends of 10%(E10), 15%(E15) and 20%(E20) to gasoline (E0). Changes in exhaust emissions indicated that the vehicles did make fuel:air adjustments i.e. they learned to run on the ethanol blends. The study did not include E85. 2. The authors state that the study did not include an operability component and while they point out that there were no observed leaks in any of the vehicles, they also state that the vehicles were only driven about 200 miles on the ethanol blends. 3. 6 of the 16 vehicles did not make adjustments at wide open throttle and emissions were consistently hotter as these vehicles ran at lean blends. None of this is real news. Here in the US we've been running our cars on E10 (gasohol) sine '83. A couple of years ago I bought a piece of lab equipment - a '99 Ford Ranger; flex fuel version. It loves E85. When I go from E10 to E85, you can hear the engine settle in to it. It almost instantly adjusts to whatever blend I feed it. The owner of the station that sells me the E85 told me that when he started selling E85 he filled up the tank of his family car. It ran a bit rough for a few miles, but then ran fine. He wouldn't run more than a tankful or two ... went on about seals and fuel lines. Same message from some reliable mechanics: E10 no problem. E85 is a different story. So, will newer model vehicles run on E85? Probably. We certainly want them to run at various temps and altitudes and for more than 200, 1000, or even 10,000 miles. Interesting info in the study you cited regarding small engines running on the lower ethanol blends. Many will not run on blends as low as E20 w/o adjustment ex raise fuel tank relative to engine and/or adjusting idle settings. Even with adjustments the engines run hot resulting in increased emissions of oxides of nitrogen and shorter lifespans for the engines. I'm not opposed to ethanol. I'm especially interested in ethanol that is produced at various levels of scale including homebrew utilizing feedstock from the waste stream. I look forward to the day when I can purchase E85 made from something other than food. Best to You, Tom I maintain that any OBDII vehicle can run E85. If your check engine light comes on, reset it and keep driving. (It's usually an O2 sensor that triggers the light.) The onboard computer WILL adapt. Here's what the NREL had to say on the matter: http://www.scribd.com/doc/117331392/Effects-of-Intermediate-Ethanol-Blends There are no E85 pumps in British Columbia. The best we can do is E10, which is only advertised as available at Husky. Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ceremonies and Celebrations video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7939 - Release Date: 07/28/14 ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility
On 7/29/2014 9:25 AM, Dawie Coetzee wrote: Another reason to replace one's OBD (should one be so cursed) with a phantom system ... -D I did, using a Megasquirt. Tuning for ethanol would be relatively straightforward. Now, if only distilling ethanol was legal in my jurisdiction . . . Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ceremonies and Celebrations video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7944 - Release Date: 07/29/14 ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility
Will a phantom system and/or Megasquirt adjust on the fly to varying ethanol concentrations? (E0 through E100) On 7/29/2014 9:25 AM, Dawie Coetzee wrote: Another reason to replace one's OBD (should one be so cursed) with a phantom system ... -D I did, using a Megasquirt. Tuning for ethanol would be relatively straightforward. Now, if only distilling ethanol was legal in my jurisdiction . . . Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ceremonies and Celebrations video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7944 - Release Date: 07/29/14 ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility
On 7/29/2014 2:55 PM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Will a phantom system and/or Megasquirt adjust on the fly to varying ethanol concentrations? (E0 through E100) No, I don't believe so. That's where the factory flex fuel system really shines. Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ceremonies and Celebrations video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7945 - Release Date: 07/29/14 ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
[Biofuel] Ethanol Compatibility
I maintain that any OBDII vehicle can run E85. If your check engine light comes on, reset it and keep driving. (It's usually an O2 sensor that triggers the light.) The onboard computer WILL adapt. Here's what the NREL had to say on the matter: http://www.scribd.com/doc/117331392/Effects-of-Intermediate-Ethanol-Blends There are no E85 pumps in British Columbia. The best we can do is E10, which is only advertised as available at Husky. Robert Luis Rabello Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ceremonies and Celebrations video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV3k-s_sg1Q Meet the People video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txsCdh1hZ6c Crisis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZedNEXhTn4 The Long Journey video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy4muxaksgk This communication may be unlawfully collected and stored by the National Security Agency (NSA) in secret. The parties to this email do not consent to the retrieving or storing of this communication and any related metadata, as well as printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, or otherwise using it. If you believe you have received this communication in error, please delete it immediately. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7939 - Release Date: 07/28/14 ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
[Biofuel] Ethanol Producer Magazine – The Latest News and Data About Ethanol Production
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/articles/11279/east-kansas-agri-energy-announces-renewable-diesel-project East Kansas Agri-Energy announces renewable diesel project By East Kansas Agri-Energy LLC | July 24, 2014 East Kansas Agri-Energy LLC has announced its intent to integrate renewable diesel production at its ethanol plant in Garnett, Kansas. Renewable diesel will be made from the corn distillers oil (CDO) already produced at the plant along with other feedstocks purchased on the market. Construction on the new facility will begin soon and will be complete in about 12 to 14 months. The plant will be able to produce 3 million gallons of hydrocarbon fuel per year, with the ability to double that capacity in the future. This is about maximizing revenue, leveraging activities that we already do every day, and enhancing the value of products we already produce now, said EKAE President CEO Jeff Oestmann. Adding renewable diesel capability aligns perfectly with our business strategy of diversifying our energy portfolio and creating additional enterprises that are sustainable on their own. The main driver is to create greater value for our unit holders, said EKAE chairman Bill Pracht. We'll be taking advantage of our experience and current facilities to create two biofuels out of one kernel of corn. Furthermore, we'll be adding value to the corn oil we already produce. Oestmann said that EKAE already has a receptive market for this new fuel. We have positive relationships with customers and within the biofuels industry that have come to know EKAE as a reliable and trustworthy supplier, he said. By using corn distillers oil we produce as the primary feedstock, we will have quality control that will underscore our reputation for quality in the marketplace. Sound management and fiscal responsibility have created a strong balance sheet for EKAE, said EKAE board member Scott Burkdoll. We are in an extremely advantageous position to establish market leadership quickly and profitably. Our renewable diesel technology is commercially proven, said Ron Beemiller, president and CEO of WB Services, the technology partner on the project. The process creates renewable diesel along with valuable co-products including steam, fuel gas and denaturant that are integrated into the ethanol plant. It is an elegant solution that adds value while reducing the carbon intensity. Renewable diesel and biodiesel are similar in that they both utilize vegetable oil as feedstock—soybean oil, corn stillage, and animal fats and greases. But that's where the similarities end, Oestmann said. Whereas biodiesel has blending restrictions and seasonal concerns, renewable diesel is a true 'drop-in' fuel indistinguishable from the ordinary diesel fuel found at the pump, Oestmann added. It does not present the blending and pipeline transportation challenges of biodiesel, and that may make it easier and less expensive for fuel marketers to integrate it into their operations. Renewable diesel is feedstock flexible, which will allow EKAE to take advantage of commodity markets to improve margins. Renewable diesel qualifies under both the “biomass-based diesel” category and the other advanced biofuels category in the renewable fuel standard (RFS). The fuel dramatically reduces greenhouse gas emissions compared to petroleum. Additionally, renewable diesel has a very low carbon intensity score under the low carbon fuels standard established by the California Air Resources Board, which opens up a huge West Coast market for EKAE. According to Oestmann, the co-products of renewable diesel are more valuable than those from biodiesel, creating greater marketing and revenue opportunities. High value co-products of the renewable diesel process include naphtha, which is a common component in gasoline and is used in ethanol production as a denaturant. Another co-product is a fuel gas similar to pipeline natural gas, which will also be used in the ethanol process to reduce energy consumption. Markets for renewable diesel are the same as petroleum derived diesel fuel including motor fuels (automobiles, trucks and rail), heavy duty equipment in agriculture and construction, and aviation fuel. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
[Biofuel] Ethanol proposal has stopped investments in advanced biofuels, industry tells senators
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2014/04/08/ethanol-congress-investments/7467263/ Ethanol proposal has stopped investments in advanced biofuels, industry tells senators Christopher Doering, cdoer...@gannett.com 3:28 p.m. CDT April 8, 2014 The Obama administration has halted investments in advanced biofuels plants following its proposal last year to reduce how much renewable fuels must be blended into the country's fuel supply in 2014, an executive representing the industry told Senate lawmakers Tuesday. What the (Environmental Protection Agency) proposal did, first the leaked version in October and then in November is frozen everything, Brooke Coleman, executive director of the Advanced Ethanol Council, told sympathetic lawmakers on the Senate Agriculture Committee. Every single one of my companies. There are no exceptions. The EPA, which oversees the country's Renewable Fuel Standard, proposed in November cutting the fuel requirement in 2014 to 15.2 billion gallons of ethanol and other biofuels, 3 billion gallons less than Congress required in a 2007 law. As part of that, EPA proposed requiring 2.2 billion gallons of advanced biofuels, including agricultural waste, wood and grass, to be used in 2014, far below the 3.75 billion outlined in federal law. Coleman said if the EPA raises the levels in its final 2014 rule, the advanced biofuel industry would benefit. If that's done we will recover and we will recover well, he said. The final rule is expected to be issued by the EPA in late spring or early summer. After years of delays and millions of dollars spent ramping up production, three large-scale U.S. cellulosic plants will open this year. DuPont Cellulosic Ethanol, which is building a 30 million gallon per year cellulosic ethanol plant near Nevada, Iowa, will use corn stover as its feedstock when it ramps up production. Jan Koninckx, DuPont's chief on cellulosic renewable fuel, told lawmakers the fuel will initially cost more before the price comes down. The product will at first . . . be more expensive than corn ethanol and more expensive than fossil fuel but over time this will come down, Koninckx said. We continue to anticipate to be competitive with oil at about $80 per barrel. Lawmakers outside of ethanol producing states have proposed to end or significantly overhaul the Renewable Fuel Standard. I don't know what would happen if you put the Renewable Fuel Standard to a vote today in the United States Congress, Sen. Heidi Heitkamp, D-N.D. We'd like to think we'd maintain it. . . but that may not be factual. One measure, introduced by Sens. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., and Tom Coburn, R-Okla., would greatly diminish the importance of the Renewable Fuel Standard by removing the component that requires fuel to be made from corn. Smaller mandates for advanced biofuels such as cellulosic would remain in place. Others would cap how much ethanol could be blended into gasoline at 10 percent. Iowa, the country's largest ethanol producer, has 42 refineries capable of producing over 3.8 billion gallons annually, with three cellulosic ethanol facilities under construction. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hello Keith and all. I agree with you to some extent. Gasoline is a non-polar mix of 100:s and 100:s of hydrocarbons. In order to be corrosive there has to be a) metal ions (Lewis acids) producing a low pH and b) water or other polar compounds in the system. Anhydrous ethanol stays anhydrous reasonably long assuming that it is kept in a closed vessel, preferably with dehydration air filters. No I have not heard if Absolut is into juridical problems. But me, I prefer Lithuanian Gold vodka or Wyborowa, so it does not matter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hij Jan Thanks for your reply. What I was asking about is the 4% (4.37%) water in the azeotrope mix that won't separate from the water by distillation. When 190-proof ethanol is blended with gasoline, the overall proportion of water is even lower. Zeolite will remove the last of the water, but it's another processing step and you have to buy it, and how long will the ethanol stay absolute? I thought that today's engines were built to resist rust and corrosion. Gasoline is also corrosive. There's also this, in a previous message: Biodiesel as an anti-wear and smog additive for gasoline fuel is very encouraging. - Franklin Del Rosario, January 2004, Biodiesel in gasoline engines - scroll down the page to Biodiesel in 4-stroke gasoline engines http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#gas It sounds like a good ethanol additive too. Has Absolut Vodka been sued yet for making false advertising claims? :-) Since it sure isn't absolute. Is it still just as good now that it's French? Somebody once gave me a bottle of 100-proof Absolut, wonderful stuff. All best Keith Hello all. I wish to comment that like this: Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an ethoxide ion, both are aggressive. The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of water without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course. Best regards Jan W - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hij Jan Thanks for your reply. What I was asking about is the 4% (4.37%) water in the azeotrope mix that won't separate from the water by distillation. When 190-proof ethanol is blended with gasoline, the overall proportion of water is even lower. Zeolite will remove the last of the water, but it's another processing step and you have to buy it, and how long will the ethanol stay absolute? I thought that today's engines were built to resist rust and corrosion. Gasoline is also corrosive. There's also this, in a previous message: Biodiesel as an anti-wear and smog additive for gasoline fuel is very encouraging. - Franklin Del Rosario, January 2004, Biodiesel in gasoline engines - scroll down the page to Biodiesel in 4-stroke gasoline engines http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#gas It sounds like a good ethanol additive too. Has Absolut Vodka been sued yet for making false advertising claims? :-) Since it sure isn't absolute. Is it still just as good now that it's French? Somebody once gave me a bottle of 100-proof Absolut, wonderful stuff. All best Keith Hello all. I wish to comment that like this: Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an ethoxide ion, both are aggressive. The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of water without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course. Best regards Jan W - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hi Keith pp356,357: Blending There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. [...] ... at about 68°F, alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22°F! ... A reference is given, AC Castro, CH Koster, and EK Franleck, Flexible Ethanol Otto Engine Management System 942400 (Warrendale, PA: Society of Automotive Engineers International, 1994) Regards Dawie Coetzee From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011, 18:59 Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20110828/62e787c3/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Thankyou Dawie! Perfect, problem solved. Thanks so much for taking the trouble. All best to you Keith Hi Keith pp356,357: Blending There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. [...] ... at about 68°F, alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22°F! ... A reference is given, AC Castro, CH Koster, and EK Franleck, Flexible Ethanol Otto Engine Management System 942400 (Warrendale, PA: Society of Automotive Engineers International, 1994) Regards Dawie Coetzee From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011, 18:59 Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hello all. I wish to comment that like this: Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an ethoxide ion, both are aggressive. The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of water without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course. Best regards Jan W - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol mini-refinery from Allard Research. Whey Ethanol
To, Ramirez.Glad to to here from you. what you looking at is fancy boiler. you will need plenty more eqipment. You will never be able From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]to brew more than 16% ethanol in brew. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] must filter it to use in this system Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 18:33:47 + Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol mini-refinery from Allard Research. Whey Ethanole From theory to Practice. Finally I got some funds for my cheese whey to ethanol project, here in Panama, Central America. I like this automated system,touch screen, remote management, etc. What do you know about it? Any info of the company. Link: http://www.allardresearch.com/systems.html RGDS Dimas _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090902/5f182ce9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090903/16ce1716/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol mini-refinery from Allard Research. Whey Ethanol
From theory to Practice. Finally I got some funds for my cheese whey to ethanol project, here in Panama, Central America. I like this automated system,touch screen, remote management, etc. What do you know about it? Any info of the company. Link: http://www.allardresearch.com/systems.html RGDS Dimas _ Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCBpubl=WLHMTAGcrea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090902/5f182ce9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol 85
Hi Kurt I live within ten miles of four different E85 pumps, for most of them it's just right there on one of the islands with the gas pump. It's a separate nozzle, like diesel, but it isn't attended. If I'm the one filling the car up, I splash-mix to about an E40 blend by putting the E85 in first, then topping off with gasoline. I've had some good success making ethyl esters using E85, too. It's dry, and if you compensate for the gasoline volume it works nicely. I'd wondered about that, but you don't get E85 here. Letting it sit in the sun in a black container tends to drive off most of the residual gas vapors post-wash. With the cost of E85 per gallon comparable to the local cost of methanol, I just use the E85. Only E85, or do you use a proportion of methanol too, as Ken Provost suggests? http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester Do you use low-FFA oil? Thanks! Best Keith Once I have the recovery still working properly, I'll put the recovered alcohol/gasoline mix in one of the cars rather than cycling it back into the process. -Kurt Chris Burck wrote: i suspect this has more to do with wanting to avoid any chance of legal action from people who try to get intoxicated with it: you never told me this was poisonous, so give me 35 million dollars. ckearly this is lunacy. but there's so many urban legends out there about punitive damage awards, corporate policies as you describe are no surprise. of course, who's to say they're not just using potential liability as cover for limiting our choices. On 8/22/08, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All; It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well. I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke lubes meant for gasoline. I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly. I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so. I walk up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL I asked the manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he could not help me. I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he told me (wrongly) that it was the law. I have since discovered that it is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh? I'm going to vomit nowplease excuse me. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol 85
For the most part I have been using straight E85. Single stage, base, sodium hydroxide since I'm still using up stock. If I have time, I'll try to move and do some KOH catalyzed. All my oil is from home use or a frequently changed burger stand, titrates 5 every time, typically around 1-2. Total failure tends to result if the E85 isn't fresh. If it's been sitting a week, I cut it approximately 50/50 with methanol and it does decently well, but unless I miss a batch it doesn't tend to sit. -Kurt Keith Addison wrote: Hi Kurt I live within ten miles of four different E85 pumps, for most of them it's just right there on one of the islands with the gas pump. It's a separate nozzle, like diesel, but it isn't attended. If I'm the one filling the car up, I splash-mix to about an E40 blend by putting the E85 in first, then topping off with gasoline. I've had some good success making ethyl esters using E85, too. It's dry, and if you compensate for the gasoline volume it works nicely. I'd wondered about that, but you don't get E85 here. Letting it sit in the sun in a black container tends to drive off most of the residual gas vapors post-wash. With the cost of E85 per gallon comparable to the local cost of methanol, I just use the E85. Only E85, or do you use a proportion of methanol too, as Ken Provost suggests? http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester Do you use low-FFA oil? Thanks! Best Keith Once I have the recovery still working properly, I'll put the recovered alcohol/gasoline mix in one of the cars rather than cycling it back into the process. -Kurt Chris Burck wrote: i suspect this has more to do with wanting to avoid any chance of legal action from people who try to get intoxicated with it: you never told me this was poisonous, so give me 35 million dollars. ckearly this is lunacy. but there's so many urban legends out there about punitive damage awards, corporate policies as you describe are no surprise. of course, who's to say they're not just using potential liability as cover for limiting our choices. On 8/22/08, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All; It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well. I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke lubes meant for gasoline. I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly. I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so. I walk up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL I asked the manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he could not help me. I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he told me (wrongly) that it was the law. I have since discovered that it is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh? I'm going to vomit nowplease excuse me. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol 85
I live within ten miles of four different E85 pumps, for most of them it's just right there on one of the islands with the gas pump. It's a separate nozzle, like diesel, but it isn't attended. If I'm the one filling the car up, I splash-mix to about an E40 blend by putting the E85 in first, then topping off with gasoline. I've had some good success making ethyl esters using E85, too. It's dry, and if you compensate for the gasoline volume it works nicely. Letting it sit in the sun in a black container tends to drive off most of the residual gas vapors post-wash. With the cost of E85 per gallon comparable to the local cost of methanol, I just use the E85. Once I have the recovery still working properly, I'll put the recovered alcohol/gasoline mix in one of the cars rather than cycling it back into the process. -Kurt Chris Burck wrote: i suspect this has more to do with wanting to avoid any chance of legal action from people who try to get intoxicated with it: you never told me this was poisonous, so give me 35 million dollars. ckearly this is lunacy. but there's so many urban legends out there about punitive damage awards, corporate policies as you describe are no surprise. of course, who's to say they're not just using potential liability as cover for limiting our choices. On 8/22/08, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All; It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well. I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke lubes meant for gasoline. I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly. I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so. I walk up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL I asked the manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he could not help me. I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he told me (wrongly) that it was the law. I have since discovered that it is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh? I'm going to vomit nowplease excuse me. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol 85
Hi All; It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well. I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke lubes meant for gasoline. I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly. I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so. I walk up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL I asked the manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he could not help me. I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he told me (wrongly) that it was the law. I have since discovered that it is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh? I'm going to vomit nowplease excuse me. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol 85
i suspect this has more to do with wanting to avoid any chance of legal action from people who try to get intoxicated with it: you never told me this was poisonous, so give me 35 million dollars. ckearly this is lunacy. but there's so many urban legends out there about punitive damage awards, corporate policies as you describe are no surprise. of course, who's to say they're not just using potential liability as cover for limiting our choices. On 8/22/08, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All; It has been a while but I am not idle. I hope everyone is keeping well. I have been working on converting a 2 stroke to run on ethanol. Engine work is well underway. I wanted to get some ethanol to start testing what lubricants I can use as a substitute for the commercial 2 stroke lubes meant for gasoline. I am hoping esters are the answer obvioisly. I don't have any anhydrous ethanol so I found out that one of the only two stations that sell E85 is about 1/2 hr away so I drove out with a jerry can, only to find that they WILL NOT SELL any E85 unless you pull up with a flex fuel vehicle and they will only fill the tank and no extra cans. The kid at the pump jerks his thumb over his shoulder and tells me he can only pump it if the guy in the building says so. I walk up to the building with its big red banner above the door with proud letters that read ONTARIO ALTERNATIVE ENERGY COUNCIL I asked the manager how I was supposed to get fuel to do my research and he said he could not help me. I asked if it was a company policy or a law and he told me (wrongly) that it was the law. I have since discovered that it is just the company policy but there is nowhere else to buy. I can produce my own anhydrous ethanol but I thought I'd save the hastle and give some of my dollars to help promote the alt fuel business. I guess the bond between car manufacturers and fuel producers is nowhere stronger than in the alternative fuels area eh? I'm going to vomit nowplease excuse me. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] ethanol from cellulose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI5frPV58tYfeature=user fuel bit is near the end The termite proofing sounds great. Kirk -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080516/7c8fa06e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from cellulose
Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI5frPV58tYfeature=user fuel bit is near the end The termite proofing sounds great. Kirk That was one to forward to several associates! One of whom works diligently to keep old growth forests from being sold to logging companies, and another who's been battling termites.. Thanks! -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol Booms, Farmers Bust
No mention of the role of subsidies and the resultant dumping on poor countries' markets, sad to say. - Keith -- http://www.alternet.org/story/52073/ Ethanol Booms, Farmers Bust By Lisa M. Hamilton, AlterNet May 25, 2007 From the news these days you'd think farmers have never had a better friend than ethanol. Headlines holler that corn prices are soaring and that at this moment farmers are planting more acres of corn than they have in the last 50 years. Reporters writing about the ethanol boom are throwing around words like gold rush, jackpot, and nirvana. But if you actually are a farmer, ethanol and the high corn prices it brings is looking less and less like a blessing -- and more like a curse. In concept, corn ethanol could benefit American farmers. Anytime we as a country look to them to supply our daily needs, it's an opportunity for rural communities to win. The problem is that the boom is taking place in the same old agricultural economy, which works to the benefit of those on top: landlords, processors, and companies selling inputs like seeds and fertilizers. It's agribusiness as usual, and like always, farmers will finish last. Initially we all were excited by the high prices, said Troy Roush, a sixth-generation farmer who grows 2,600 acres of corn in central Indiana. But the truth is that the farmers won't keep any of it. There's an old saying that expenses will always rise to meet revenue. It all gets built in. And that's exactly what has happened: As the price of corn has gone up, so has the cost of growing it. In just two months, the price Roush paid for fertilizer doubled. And speculation has driven land prices through the roof. It's insane, Roush said. In the last four months our land values have increased 40 percent. We're all sitting around wondering if it's real. While most farmers own some land, the vast majority rent part or all of their acreage. Rents already swelled in some areas for this season, and farmers are bracing themselves for an even greater increase in 2008. A study by the Illinois Society of Professional Farm Managers and Rural Appraisers forecast that if corn prices stay high, rent for prime farmland next year will rise by 19 percent -- to 218 dollars an acre. For young farmers, something rural America desperately needs, such inflation can make getting into the business impossible. It is true that ethanol can offer farmers more control in the market through cooperative ownership of production plants. But thanks to the recent boom, corporate investors from around the world are now building plants that dwarf the farmer co-ops of the 1990s. And in the rush to meet the government's renewable fuel mandate, most incentives no longer favor farmer-owned plants. In this new marketplace many farmer co-ops have cashed out, selling themselves partially or entirely to outside investors. According to the American Coalition for Ethanol, of the 75 plants slated for construction over the next two years only 25 percent are farmer-owned, and even those are often run in part by non-farmers from Des Moines and Chicago. Without ownership of ethanol plants, farmers return to being mere workers in service of a volatile market. While the price of corn may be at a glorious four dollars a bushel now, when it evaporates farmers will likely be left to pay for costs that reflect a boom but profits that reflect a bust. Considering that much of the biofuels industry is already calling corn an archaic fuel source, looking forward instead to cellulosic ethanol, this crash is bound to happen within the next few years. To Roush and his colleagues it's beginning to feel ominously like the lead-up to the farm crisis of the 1980s, when high times led to unsustainable debt. They fear that the near future holds widespread foreclosure, not rural salvation. To make matters worse, the boom is happening in a Farm Bill year. Congress is under tremendous pressure to peel back agricultural subsidies as they write the bill, and today's high corn prices and the promise of a bright, ethanol-powered future for farmers might give them the excuse to do so. Of course maintaining the subsidy system indefinitely isn't a solution, but the fact is that thousands of family farmers rely on those payments; to remove them without adequate replacement in such uncertain times could alone cause another farm crisis. Despite all the problems it's causing, four-dollar corn itself is not the problem. In a sense it's actually a good thing, for it means farmers are getting closer to a fair price for their product. But a high price today doesn't ultimately benefit farmers if they remain in a system that allows the price to freefall tomorrow. What farmers need in order to rebuild their communities and secure their farm incomes is not an ethanol boom -- or any kind of boom for that matter. They need a system that offers a fair return for their product all the
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers
Hi Zeke Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average american, but meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's sort of two different issues, that because of our factory farming structure, get treated like one. And actually, according to The Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat is for us may be as much dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it is. For example, he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack many of the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing about eating fish... Nice example, thanks. There's no shortage of examples and evidence of this, extending over a long period, but of course it's consistently blind-eyed by the pseudo-scientific pipers who value the corporate shilling of the Tysons and ADMs of this world rather than verity and the community they're supposed to be a part of. By the way, I think it should be omega 3 fatty acids, not omega 6. EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids are found in fish, which get it from plankton (but not from corn). This seems to be right: We should have approximately equal amounts of Omega3 and Omega6 in our bodies, or at maximum, not much more than twice the Omega6 as Omega3. But almost all Americans have ten or twenty times more Omega6 than Omega3, a condition that leads to all sorts of degenerative disease. Lots more about that here: http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny2.html Facts about Fats- The Skinny on Fats by Mary Enig, PhD, and Sally Fallon The headline of this thread is wrong, Food Makers it says, but how much of it can really be called food? - meat [of a sort], packaged foods and soda - big food companies like Tyson Foods Inc., the giant chicken processor [sic], and ketchup maker H.J. Heinz Co. are feeling the pinch. Bottlers of Coca-Cola Co. and PepsiCo Inc. soft drinks are raising prices, partly to offset the rising price of high-fructose corn syrup, the dominant sweetener in sodas. - food giant General Mills Inc. [international production, marketing and distribution of cereals, snacks and processed foods] Nothing and nobody we wouldn't do better without. Someone just accused us of being funded by ADM because our website alleges that ethanol fuel might be a Good Thing. I got a little annoyed. It ended well though, he had another look and sent me a good reply. Worth a read, actually: Keith - first, i am sorry. my original comments to you were based on my assumption that you advocate ethanol for the same reasons that megafarms and ADM advocate ethanol: opportunity to collect government subsidies. secondly, the distribution of wealth in the u.s. and elsewhere sickens me. i have been in business, as a manager, for 30 years and have encountered greed, lying, cheating, stealing, abuse of workers, similar to what we read about in the paper every day. business seems to be no more than an unending search for slave labor while the boys at the top vote to increase each others salaries. next, having grown up in a farming community, i am dismayed by the near disappearance of the small farmer. most of the ones near Indianapolis have been bought out by land developers, the land paved, and suburban ghettos built. all this while parts of the city become desperate slums. Indianapolis still dumps raw sewage into the river as it fights the EPA to avoid upgrading its sewer system. but, we do raise taxes to build sports stadiums and expand highways. so, don't think i am your enemy. i am a cynic ... the last refuge of an idealist, says someone. i quit my job(s) several years ago, refusing anymore to pay taxes to fund bombing raids. no longer am i a machine for some business greed head to intimidate or manipulate. a friend of mine says the motto of his company is: we grind up our people for our customers. how true. We keep hearing things like this from businessmen, or ex-businessmen, more and more these days. A trend? Best Keith Z On 1/27/07, Terry Dyck mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about less meat and healthier humans. Terry Dyck From: Jason Katie mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier animals, not too bad i guess... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers
Not to mention farmed salmon is often feed on fishmeal made from frshwater fish from the Great Lakes and they are loaded w/ PCB's. But we are not supposed to talk about it and out government had made it clear the consumer does not need to know this. Zeke Yewdall wrote: Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average american, but meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's sort of two different issues, that because of our factory farming structure, get treated like one. And actually, according to The Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat is for us may be as much dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it is. For example, he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack many of the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing about eating fish... Z On 1/27/07, *Terry Dyck* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about less meat and healthier humans. Terry Dyck From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier animals, not too bad i guess... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 1/23/2007 11:04 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers
Hi Zeke, Fish actually contain Omega 3 essential fatty acids not Omega 6. Omega 6 can be obtained by eating seeds, nuts, beans, whole grains, and extra virgin olive oil or by taking Evening Primrose Oil caps or Borage Oil caps. Omega 3 can also be obtained from Flax seed, hemp seed or walnuts. Terry Dyck From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:25:56 -0700 Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average american, but meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's sort of two different issues, that because of our factory farming structure, get treated like one. And actually, according to The Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat is for us may be as much dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it is. For example, he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack many of the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing about eating fish... Z On 1/27/07, Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about less meat and healthier humans. Terry Dyck From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier animals, not too bad i guess... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 1/23/2007 11:04 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Windows Live Spaces: share your New Year pictures! http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers
Sorry, I must have confused them. I remembered reading that whatever was good about the fish was lacking in the ones fed corn instead of krill, but didn't remember which one it was. Zeke On 1/28/07, Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Zeke, Fish actually contain Omega 3 essential fatty acids not Omega 6. Omega 6 can be obtained by eating seeds, nuts, beans, whole grains, and extra virgin olive oil or by taking Evening Primrose Oil caps or Borage Oil caps. Omega 3 can also be obtained from Flax seed, hemp seed or walnuts. Terry Dyck From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:25:56 -0700 Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average american, but meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's sort of two different issues, that because of our factory farming structure, get treated like one. And actually, according to The Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat is for us may be as much dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it is. For example, he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack many of the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing about eating fish... Z On 1/27/07, Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about less meat and healthier humans. Terry Dyck From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier animals, not too bad i guess... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 1/23/2007 11:04 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Windows Live Spaces: share your New Year pictures! http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers
How about less meat and healthier humans. Terry Dyck From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier animals, not too bad i guess... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 1/23/2007 11:04 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers
Well, less meat would probably be a good idea for the average american, but meat can be had from animals that don't eat corn. It's sort of two different issues, that because of our factory farming structure, get treated like one. And actually, according to The Omivoire's Dilemma, how healthy meat is for us may be as much dependent on what the meat eats, as what kind it is. For example, he mentions that the new corn fed factory Salmon may lack many of the omega 6 fatty acids that are supposed to be the great thing about eating fish... Z On 1/27/07, Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about less meat and healthier humans. Terry Dyck From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:20:42 -0600 this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier animals, not too bad i guess... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 1/23/2007 11:04 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers
Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers By Lauren Etter, Ilan Brat and Steven GrayWall Street Journal January 18, 2007 The surge in corn prices ignited by the ethanol boom is rippling through the nation's economy --- from the Farm Belt to Wall Street to the office soda machine. The price of corn, the nation's No. 1 crop in total production, and an ingredient in products ranging from sugary syrups to chicken feed to tortillas, has doubled since this time last year to $3.66 a bushel, despite an abundant harvest, and is inching toward the rarely breached $4-a-bushel mark. - The Issue: The ethanol boom that has sent corn prices soaring is now rippling through the economy. - The Debate: Whether increased fuel-ethanol production is worth the economic cost of higher food prices. - What's Next: If corn prices stay high, producers of such products as meat, packaged foods and soda may have to raise prices further. Driving the run-up is an unprecedented demand for ethanol, a biofuel typically made from corn that many policy makers are counting on to help wean the nation away from foreign oil. President Bush is expected to intensify demand by calling for yet more production in his State of the Union address next week. The new demand has much of the agricultural economy humming. As corn rallies, farmers, emboldened by the higher prices or planning to switch to corn or expand their acreage, are buying new farm equipment from makers like Deere Co. and CNH Global NV's Case IH. They are spending more on seed from giants like Monsanto Co. and DuPont Co. and fertilizer from companies like Mosaic Co. Meanwhile, big food companies like Tyson Foods Inc., the giant chicken processor, and ketchup maker H.J. Heinz Co. are feeling the pinch. Bottlers of Coca-Cola Co. and PepsiCo Inc. soft drinks are raising prices, partly to offset the rising price of high-fructose corn syrup, the dominant sweetener in sodas. At the center of the tumult, ethanol manufacturers like Archer-Daniels-Midland Co. are caught between the combination of rising corn prices and falling oil prices, which make ethanol less attractive. Though ethanol benefits from tax breaks and other subsidies, those incentives generally go to the companies that blend it with gasoline to make motor fuel, rather than to ethanol producers. As corn prices rise, farmers are racing to cash in. Leon Corzine in Assumption, Illinois, is planting 95% corn on his 3,000-acre farm this year, up from 50% in 2002. The prices he now gets for corn are well above the $2 to $3 a bushel he has come to expect. Largely as a result, he has spent $300,000 on trucks, tractors and grain storage. Last year, Mr. Corzine built an additional grain-storage unit, an investment equivalent to about $1.50 per bushel of corn. With corn prices up, he has already recouped that investment. I paid for that grain storage in one year, says Mr. Corzine. That's very unusual. At H R Agri Power Inc., a Case IH dealer with five locations in Kentucky, orders for combines --- the giant machines that help harvest the corn --- shot up 54% from a year earlier in the last three months of 2006, and tractor orders climbed 25%, says President Wayne Hunt. Just this week, two groups of farmers came to an H R dealer to explore buying combines for the cotton fields they are switching to corn, he says. The increased demand for corn is also driving up sales of nitrogen fertilizer, which corn requires in heavy doses. Mr. Hunt estimates nitrogen fertilizer sales at his eight Kentucky farm-supply stores this year will climb 10% to 12% from 2006. We think agriculture's future looks pretty bright right now, says Mr. Hunt. Corn prices set their current record of $5.50 a bushel in 1996 as prices soared in response to a supply shortage caused by lower production and stronger export demand. The average price of corn from that year's crop was $3.24 a bushel --- also a record. Today's high prices, by contrast, follow a 2006 corn harvest that the Agriculture Department last week estimated at 10.5 billion bushels. That is down slightly from the previous year's crop, but it is still the third-largest on record. Even so, the average price for the 2006 corn crop is expected to reach $3.20 a bushel. With more ethanol plants under construction, demand for corn is expected to increase in the years ahead. Ethanol production totaled about 4.9 billion gallons last year, up from 3.9 billion the year before, according to the Renewable Fuels Association, the trade organization representing the ethanol industry. Next year, production is expected to reach more than six billion gallons. Corn's rally has been a headache for the livestock industry, which consumes nearly 60% of the U.S. corn crop. Pork-production costs have increased 25% from last year, according to Ronald Plain, an agricultural economist at the University of Missouri-Columbia. At the end of last
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use has Environmental Downsides
Brazilian cane mills are also powered by leftover cane stalks that heat caldrons to generate steam and electric energy, an extra advantage that corn and wheat don't have. Uh... why not? If you are just using the seeds of the corn (which is stupid enough, true), what about the whole rest of the corn plant? Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol Boom Cheers Grain Farmers, Pinches Food Makers
this just means that farmers wont be able to afford feeding their animals CORN and be forced to graze pastures again. better meat and healthier animals, not too bad i guess... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 1/23/2007 11:04 AM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol use has Environmental Downsides
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/39942/story.htm Reuters Summit - Ethanol use has Environmental Downsides BRAZIL: January 22, 2007 SAO PAULO - Biofuels have the potential to lessen the impact of human civilization on the environment, but even the greenest of renewable fuels production is not without its dirty underbelly, experts said. Although global warming is a growing concern among policy makers, the current trend to substitute fossil fuels with renewables is in part motivated by countries' efforts to reduce their dependence on oil from politically volatile regions. Brazil's cane ethanol distillers, with three decades experience in nationwide production and distribution, have compiled data demonstrating the fuel's advantage over fossil counterparts in the reduction of greenhouse gasses. Ethanol accounts for 40 percent of total fuels used by non-diesel powered vehicles in Brazil and represents a 30 percent reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from the transport sector, the Cane Industry Association (Unica) said. But not even the global stars of renewable fuels are free of critics who fear that increased ethanol use worldwide will hasten deforestation in the Amazon and other tropical rain forests in order to produce sugar cane. In 20 years, I doubt there will be a gasoline car on the Brazilian market. They will all be powered by ethanol, Unica President Eduardo Pereira Carvalho said during the Reuters Global Biofuel Summit. Brazil began its ethanol program 30 years ago when it was importing nearly 90 percent of oil needed for domestic use. During its growth to maturity, the cane stalk absorbs the same amount of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere as is eventually emitted during combustion of the ethanol distilled from its juices. But this is not so for ethanol made from corn in the United States or wheat in Europe. These primary materials must first be turned into sugars before fermentation, which requires the use extra fossil fuels and adds to carbon gasses emitted in the production process. Brazilian cane mills are also powered by leftover cane stalks that heat caldrons to generate steam and electric energy, an extra advantage that corn and wheat don't have. Unica estimates that Brazilian cane ethanol on average yields more than 8 times more energy than is used in the production process, compared with US corn ethanol production that yields between 1.1 to 1.7 times as much energy. This advantage should improve with the use of state-of-the-art technologies in Brazilian mills. EUROPEAN TRADE RESTRICTIONS The European Union, which just proposed the use of 10 percent biofuels for transport by 2020, signaled it will demand proof from suppliers that the product was made in a sustainable manner, a requirements that may rule out US ethanol. Environmentalists have already begun to warn that the expansion of biofuel use currently underway will represent increased use of land for planting, which could stimulate deforestation or the use of more reserve lands. We're currently working on some sort of certification system to ensure that biofuels that are imported, or the raw materials, are taken from sustainable production, EU Commission agriculture spokesman Michael Mann said. Some US producers hold greater trust in market forces. Don Endres, CEO of US ethanol producer VeraSun, said better farmers tend to squeeze out less efficient producers and bring more land under their farming practices over time. By providing a market we increase the value and that allows for better farmers to increase land, Endres said. Farmers take very good care of their soil and erosion because they invest a lot in the organic matter. Story by Inae Riveras REUTERS NEWS SERVICE ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
That's cool! I mean the ethyl alcohol bit...I'm quite keen on distilling my own fuel as well. I've started a reflux still, but haven't gotten it finished (I don't have any tools to braze ferrous metals - steel, to non-ferrous metals - copper). But it's always encouraging to read of other folks have success on any level! It sounds like you may have some knowledge on the subject, so I've got a question...what do you know about converting standard ICE gas engines to run well on ethanol (ethyl alcohol) ? I've heard from different sources that all you have to do is bore out your carb. main jet and idle jet... Ethanol and your car http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethanolcar Alcohol as an Engine Fuel http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me1.html How To Adapt Your Automobile Engine For Ethyl Alcohol Use http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me2.html The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html See: Chapter 1 AN OVERVIEW Chapter 2 BASIC FUEL THEORY Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Convert Your Car to Alcohol http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_drane.html Best Keith Best... Luke --- Arttu Aula [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Methyl ethyl ketone is at least the solvent of choice in the aviation industry. The general rule of thumb in those circles being that everything's more toxic than in the automotive department: leaded AvGas, high sulfur jet fuel(not to mention the additives they throw in), hydraulic fluid which they at least strongly discourage from ingesting. It does vaporize quickly, dissolves most glues and paints and all grease, much better than acetone. Considering the bother we go through to put on gloves and masks when dealing with it, i wouldn't use it as fuel. Block heaters do take a bit of electricity, but they do save enough fuel in cold weather to justify their use; 1/2h in 5 C to -5 C, 1h down to -15 C, then 2h for below that. There are fuel burning ones too, no cord or plug necessary, but they are more expensive. Electrically heated carburetors do exist, they shouldn't take much power at all considering the small mass of a carburetor. Even less if you just heat the fuel in the float bowl directly. It takes 1 minute to heat 1 dl of ethanol 40C (-20 to 20C, for example) using the power of your low beams (not USING your low beams of course, but the same amount of electricity). If your battery can't take that, get a new battery, you won't be able to start an engine on gas at -20. I'm inclined to think that an EFI engine would start quite well in freezing weather, at least down to the point where block heaters are recomended anyways. But a heating around the fuel lines wouldn't be impossible either. Winter's coming late this year, no snow on chirstmas! And this is Finland we're talking about! I'd like to try out my snowmobile on ethanol, but the large batch production's the hard part, it being illegal in Finland and all... So if the cops ask i didn't distill a test batch of around 3dl with a steam juicer with the top sections flipped around and the middle filled with glass plates. It might have burned had i done so :) Not to mention i can't use the snowmobile on any fuel with no snow around! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
Still in need of practical experience. My dad threw out an old lawn mower i was going to experiment on, but i'll find something, just need to find the time and effort. The trimmer for one, adjustable carb and all. Changing or drilling jets is easy, it should work that way, make fine adjustments with plug color and piston wash. Ignition timing is what i've been pondering about lately. Not necessary, but would get better results. If i could figure out how to electronically delay the trigger signal for CDI i'd be set. That would make dual fuel possible. Cold starting is a major issue. A resistor in the float bowl is probably the best thing, though my snowmobile has no battery, but that's a matter of installing one. I think the electrical system would have no problem with that, since an electric starter is an option for the sled. A fire in a soup can and some tubing isn't out of the question either. I'll figure that out once i have fuel. And the suspension sorted out, damn thing keeps bottoming out constantly... I've got 2 pieces of steel tubing next to my garage waiting to be welded into a column. I'd want to make a continuos feed still, it seems a bit more flexible to use, no need to heat the whole 200l batch or whatever i'd be working with, just do a bit at a time. If i could do it inside and incorporate it into part of the heating system the energy for distillation wouldn't be an issue, need it to heat the house anyways. Being a student just coming home for weekends does put restrictions on my plans, although most of it is just inherent laziness. Need to get over that. Arttu ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
Methyl ethyl ketone is at least the solvent of choice in the aviation industry. The general rule of thumb in those circles being that everything's more toxic than in the automotive department: leaded AvGas, high sulfur jet fuel(not to mention the additives they throw in), hydraulic fluid which they at least strongly discourage from ingesting. It does vaporize quickly, dissolves most glues and paints and all grease, much better than acetone. Considering the bother we go through to put on gloves and masks when dealing with it, i wouldn't use it as fuel. Block heaters do take a bit of electricity, but they do save enough fuel in cold weather to justify their use; 1/2h in 5 C to -5 C, 1h down to -15 C, then 2h for below that. There are fuel burning ones too, no cord or plug necessary, but they are more expensive. Electrically heated carburetors do exist, they shouldn't take much power at all considering the small mass of a carburetor. Even less if you just heat the fuel in the float bowl directly. It takes 1 minute to heat 1 dl of ethanol 40C (-20 to 20C, for example) using the power of your low beams (not USING your low beams of course, but the same amount of electricity). If your battery can't take that, get a new battery, you won't be able to start an engine on gas at -20. I'm inclined to think that an EFI engine would start quite well in freezing weather, at least down to the point where block heaters are recomended anyways. But a heating around the fuel lines wouldn't be impossible either. Winter's coming late this year, no snow on chirstmas! And this is Finland we're talking about! I'd like to try out my snowmobile on ethanol, but the large batch production's the hard part, it being illegal in Finland and all... So if the cops ask i didn't distill a test batch of around 3dl with a steam juicer with the top sections flipped around and the middle filled with glass plates. It might have burned had i done so :) Not to mention i can't use the snowmobile on any fuel with no snow around! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
That's cool! I mean the ethyl alcohol bit...I'm quite keen on distilling my own fuel as well. I've started a reflux still, but haven't gotten it finished (I don't have any tools to braze ferrous metals - steel, to non-ferrous metals - copper). But it's always encouraging to read of other folks have success on any level! It sounds like you may have some knowledge on the subject, so I've got a question...what do you know about converting standard ICE gas engines to run well on ethanol (ethyl alcohol) ? I've heard from different sources that all you have to do is bore out your carb. main jet and idle jet... Best... Luke --- Arttu Aula [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Methyl ethyl ketone is at least the solvent of choice in the aviation industry. The general rule of thumb in those circles being that everything's more toxic than in the automotive department: leaded AvGas, high sulfur jet fuel(not to mention the additives they throw in), hydraulic fluid which they at least strongly discourage from ingesting. It does vaporize quickly, dissolves most glues and paints and all grease, much better than acetone. Considering the bother we go through to put on gloves and masks when dealing with it, i wouldn't use it as fuel. Block heaters do take a bit of electricity, but they do save enough fuel in cold weather to justify their use; 1/2h in 5 C to -5 C, 1h down to -15 C, then 2h for below that. There are fuel burning ones too, no cord or plug necessary, but they are more expensive. Electrically heated carburetors do exist, they shouldn't take much power at all considering the small mass of a carburetor. Even less if you just heat the fuel in the float bowl directly. It takes 1 minute to heat 1 dl of ethanol 40C (-20 to 20C, for example) using the power of your low beams (not USING your low beams of course, but the same amount of electricity). If your battery can't take that, get a new battery, you won't be able to start an engine on gas at -20. I'm inclined to think that an EFI engine would start quite well in freezing weather, at least down to the point where block heaters are recomended anyways. But a heating around the fuel lines wouldn't be impossible either. Winter's coming late this year, no snow on chirstmas! And this is Finland we're talking about! I'd like to try out my snowmobile on ethanol, but the large batch production's the hard part, it being illegal in Finland and all... So if the cops ask i didn't distill a test batch of around 3dl with a steam juicer with the top sections flipped around and the middle filled with glass plates. It might have burned had i done so :) Not to mention i can't use the snowmobile on any fuel with no snow around! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
Jason, Thanks for the assurances. A friend sells, restores, repairs, and stores Morgans ( cars) many are classics. He has noticed a relationship between leaking rubber hoses and use of ethanol blends as low as 10%. The newer hoses seem to hold up better. Another friend got a notice regarding incompatibility of ethanol blends with the rubber components in his snowmobile. I don't know for sure, but suspect that methanol is even more damaging to rubber parts than ethanol. It would stand to reason that newer cars (post 95?) and especially flex fuel cars would be better in terms of rubber compatibility. Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars methanol degrades rubber parts,sure, but so does ethanol and BD. there will be plenty of warning if something starts leaking. and in most newer cars it wont matter anyway. if all else fails we got lotsa blue-goo (RVT silicone sealer)! Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars Jason, Would there be a problem with rubber components? A can of HEET (methanol) in the tank every once in awhile to resolve a water issue? Maybe. A dose of methanol to hoses and seals with every inch on the odometer? Not. JTF Why bother washing? (BD) If so: I wonder if flex fuel cars have rubber components that resist methanol better than standard issue road cars. Being able to denature ethanol with methanol could be the answer to the homebrewer's dilemna water is soluble in both. There are several references in the archives to using 80, 85, 90% ethanol (rest is water). There is an interesting discussion of water injection at the Online Biofuels Library (JTF) The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel . There is also a chart in Convert Your Car to Alcohol at the Biofuels Library that is based on testing 150 - 200 proof alcohol. This suggests that a gas car (in this case a 1969 Dodge Dart) can be converted to run on 75% ethanol. Best results were found to be with 90% alcohol. My point is that you don't need anhydrous ethanol to run a car. You need it if you plan to denature the alcohol with gasoline. Can we denature it with methanol w/o damaging the car? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. Z On 11/28/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
I think I may have misread your questions. It seems you are asking what to do if you already have the water in there, from homebrew Ethanol? Hm. Perhaps a dual tank setup like we use for SVO in diesels. A block heater would probably help, but then you are using alot of electricity -- and is that renewably produced? Z On 11/28/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. Z On 11/28/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
i hear toyota and honda have 4cyls that are easily adapted to Flexing. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. Z On 11/28/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/555 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 6:09 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/555 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 6:09 PM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards. Lower vapor pressure means less volatile. The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea level) Zeke Yewdall wrote: I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure lower vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure lower than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure) which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix. The problem here is that vapor pressure and water solubility tend to be inversely proportional. One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl ketone. both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than either. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. what's a carburetor? :- Z On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
There you go Zeke A second tank. It also answered my next question. What do you do when you are running on homebrew that is not anhydrous simply because you can't achieve 99+%, and you are low on fuel? ex Traveling and have to fill up with store-bought fuel; E-85 or even gasoline. Answer: Fill the second tank, flip a switch and off you go. Thanks Zeke, Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts I think I may have misread your questions. It seems you are asking what to do if you already have the water in there, from homebrew Ethanol? Hm. Perhaps a dual tank setup like we use for SVO in diesels. A block heater would probably help, but then you are using alot of electricity -- and is that renewably produced? Z On 11/28/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. Z On 11/28/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
Hi Bob. You mentioned methy ethyl ketone (MEK) as a possible cold start additive to an ethanol/water mix. I was hoping that methyl butyl ketone might be used instead. It is on the list of substances that can be used to denature ethanol. - It is much less soluble in water than MEK (14g/L vs 290g/L) - Higher vapor pressure??? (vapor pressure is inversely proportional to solubility) - It's boiling point is higher than MET lower vapor pressure? (The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure.) Help me Bob, I'm confused. Is methyl butyl ketone a good candidate for denaturing ethanol w. water in it and, can the mix then be used as engine fuel? ORIs it more likely to be used to denature anhydrous ethanol that is intended to be used as a solvent? Tom - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards. Lower vapor pressure means less volatile. The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea level) Zeke Yewdall wrote: I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure lower vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure lower than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure) which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix. The problem here is that vapor pressure and water solubility tend to be inversely proportional. One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl ketone. both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than either. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. what's a carburetor? :- Z On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
Oops. You are right. But my reasoning was right, if you reverse what i said about vapor pressure. Hmmm, methyl ethyle ketone as I recall that stuff is pretty hazardous, but perhaps no more so than unleaded gasoline. Z On 11/28/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards. Lower vapor pressure means less volatile. The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea level) Zeke Yewdall wrote: I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure lower vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure lower than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure) which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix. The problem here is that vapor pressure and water solubility tend to be inversely proportional. One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl ketone. both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than either. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. what's a carburetor? :- Z On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts
they keep barrels of it in the blastproof paint bunker in the harley factory up by the airport. i dont know how reactive it is, but apparently it burns REALLY fast. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and cold starts Oops. You are right. But my reasoning was right, if you reverse what i said about vapor pressure. Hmmm, methyl ethyle ketone as I recall that stuff is pretty hazardous, but perhaps no more so than unleaded gasoline. Z On 11/28/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke you have vapor pressure backwards. Lower vapor pressure means less volatile. The boiling point of a liquid is defined as that temperature when the vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure (760 mm Hg at sea level) Zeke Yewdall wrote: I don't think that adding water would be the right way to go. I think the problem is that ethanol has a higher vapor pressure lower vapor pressure than gasoline, and in cold weather, it is hard to get it to vaporize into a fuel-air mixture effectively. Gasoline vaporizes much easier, and gets the engine going and initiates the combustion. But water has an even higher vapor pressure lower than ethanol, plus it is not a fuel, so I don't think it would help. Since all of the commercially produced flex fuel vehicals that I've seen are designed to run E85, I think they just rely on the gasoline content to start in the winter. the only way to improve cold starts on a vehicle running on ethanol water would be to add a something more volatile (higher vapor pressure) which is miscible with the more polar ethanol water mix. The problem here is that vapor pressure and water solubility tend to be inversely proportional. One guess would be acetone,or possibly methyl ethyl ketone. both should be miscible in ethanol/water but more volatile than either. What bugs me is that I can't buy any flex fuel vehicals that are efficient -- I mean, if I want a flex fuel vehical, I have to upgrade to a full sized pickup or a V8 sedan. Where's the little 4 cylinder efficient flex fuel vehical? Guess it's not all that hard to change out carbureator jets to change the fuel air ratio yourself to allow running ethanol. what's a carburetor? :- Z On 11/28/06, *Thomas Kelly* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I've read that people using ethanol, blend in 15 - 20% gasoline to improve cold weather starts. What would one do if they were running on 85 - 90% ethanol : 10 -15% water to improve cold weather starts? Do flex fuel cars have options for block heaters? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob -- Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
[Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
Hi Zeke, You wrote: I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Two questions: 1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas cars can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water). True or False??? If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) is that the mix has to be denatured . unleaded gasoline is not a good choice because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water conc must be only 1 or 2% . that's the tough part. 2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol become a problem for engine parts? I appreciate your thoughts on this. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink a 2% solution? It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to be concerned about a little biodiesel in there? I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Z If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would remain low --- a continuous stream from the liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from pushing through the oil layer into the vapor layer? Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this occur in living cells). Maybe I have it all wrong. You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. harmonic mixing ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt work . nothing dangerous.
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
Just to add some food for thought here on this subject. If you build the engine for the fuel type you will get top performance. this performance may even exceed the performance of a similar engine designed to run on unleaded. Where all the problems come from is trying to run anengine designed for one fuel on another. In exalmple if I wanted to get top performance out of propane fuel I would start with a 9-10 : 1 compression ratio would create an engine withas good or better performance to one designed at 7-8:1 designed for unleaded regular gasoline. Jim From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:51:09 -0500 Hi Zeke, You wrote: I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Two questions: 1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas cars can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water). True or False??? If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) is that the mix has to be denatured . unleaded gasoline is not a good choice because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water conc must be only 1 or 2% . that's the tough part. 2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol become a problem for engine parts? I appreciate your thoughts on this. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink a 2% solution? It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to be concerned about a little biodiesel in there? I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Z If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the alcohol out. What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor). Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
most gasoline powered cars run at 8+ any more, so a true flex fuel vehicle (similar to the aforementioned 2 1/2 ton hauler) could be made from existing parts, its just the fuel feed adjustments that would give you problems. a computer would have to be built and programmed with multiple feedback functions to accomodate any mixture of the usable fuels. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars Just to add some food for thought here on this subject. If you build the engine for the fuel type you will get top performance. this performance may even exceed the performance of a similar engine designed to run on unleaded. Where all the problems come from is trying to run anengine designed for one fuel on another. In exalmple if I wanted to get top performance out of propane fuel I would start with a 9-10 : 1 compression ratio would create an engine withas good or better performance to one designed at 7-8:1 designed for unleaded regular gasoline. Jim From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:51:09 -0500 Hi Zeke, You wrote: I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Two questions: 1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas cars can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water). True or False??? If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) is that the mix has to be denatured . unleaded gasoline is not a good choice because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water conc must be only 1 or 2% . that's the tough part. 2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol become a problem for engine parts? I appreciate your thoughts on this. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim, Add BD to denature . great idea. Still perfectly suitable for making ethyl esters. It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to apply for different denaturants. The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink a 2% solution? It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to be concerned about a little biodiesel in there? I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either biodiesel or methanol. Z If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? .. cut back 98+% on methanol use. Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking . dangerous am using a table saw again today. Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for gas cars? Tom - Original Message - From: JAMES PHELPS To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Joe and Tom, Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H Jim - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) Hi Joe, I didn't follow you when you wrote: I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from
[Biofuel] Ethanol and my car.
Hi all, Been a while since I posted (I broke my ankle skateboarding and I had been sidelined for a while). I've been playing catch-up ever since. Any way, since I've been back on my feet I've been working on my camper (77 VW Bus) to get it ready for winter and keep it from falling to bits. Prior to my injury I had been trying to assemble the parts to put a Rabbit diesel engine in it but, had run into problems finding an affordable engine in decent condition. Recently, I've been working on getting the engine right since I don't have the money to do all the body work that I want to do and today it occurred to me that I now have a very good understanding of the fuel injection system on this vehicle. That got me to thinking that I might have the resources to convert this engine to run ethanol. I found this book in one of Keith's posts: How to Modify Your Car to Run on Alcohol Fuel (Guidelines for Converting Gasoline Engines, with Specific Instructions for Air-Cooled Volkswagens), R. Lippman, 1982. Hmmm, fits my criteria pretty darned well if it covers fuel injection. Anyone have (or had) a copy? Is it worthwhile? It seems to me that there might only be one part that would require replacement (I've replaced all the rubber anyway) but, I've have to take a deeper look. The way I remember it is that an adjustment to the spray pattern and an increase in compression are both good things and that a preheater is helpful during cold months. Can anyone summarize or point me to the changes needed to run ethanol? Any additional help would be most appreciated. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
actually, my name is bob (see signature below) Derick Giorchino wrote: Thanks for the response Keith. This is very good info for me. I do not wish to spend a lot of time trying to do something that is close to imposable or just impractical. When I could be out collecting U.V.O. or making bio d. Would you have any idea what Doug is speeking of earlier in this post? He makes it sound like ethanol is easily done. from sugar yes it is easy- I do it almost daily in my hummingbird feeder. But ethanol from cellulose is very difficult. I maybe reading into this though. Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:20 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Derick, you are talking about cellolosic ethanol, that is ethanol made from cellulose, rather than from starch. This is the holy grail of ethanol production. Very small amounts of ethanol can be made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal and the cost high. My position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense. the problems are manifold. First is the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily separable from the cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more difficult that that of starch, and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily fermentable with yeast. Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least the 70's with little or no success. Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as the feedstock- cellulosic wastes-are abundant. Derick Giorchino wrote: No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until some one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips /paper and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read it over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per liter /gal or what ever. Thanks Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol What are you people talking about? have you ever made any type of biofuel? Seems to me that you are confusing them all. Acid Base process and ethanol fuel? Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are talking alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not ethanol. Oh well. Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is here: Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor oil http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil Best Keith Does not make too much sense. Andrew - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
Sorry Bob my head is up ... in the clouds. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:41 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol actually, my name is bob (see signature below) Derick Giorchino wrote: Thanks for the response Keith. This is very good info for me. I do not wish to spend a lot of time trying to do something that is close to imposable or just impractical. When I could be out collecting U.V.O. or making bio d. Would you have any idea what Doug is speeking of earlier in this post? He makes it sound like ethanol is easily done. from sugar yes it is easy- I do it almost daily in my hummingbird feeder. But ethanol from cellulose is very difficult. I maybe reading into this though. Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:20 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Derick, you are talking about cellolosic ethanol, that is ethanol made from cellulose, rather than from starch. This is the holy grail of ethanol production. Very small amounts of ethanol can be made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal and the cost high. My position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense. the problems are manifold. First is the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily separable from the cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more difficult that that of starch, and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily fermentable with yeast. Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least the 70's with little or no success. Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as the feedstock- cellulosic wastes-are abundant. Derick Giorchino wrote: No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until some one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips /paper and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read it over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per liter /gal or what ever. Thanks Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol What are you people talking about? have you ever made any type of biofuel? Seems to me that you are confusing them all. Acid Base process and ethanol fuel? Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are talking alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not ethanol. Oh well. Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is here: Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor oil http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil Best Keith Does not make too much sense. Andrew - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
What are you people talking about? have you ever made any type of biofuel? Seems to me that you are confusing them all. Acid Base process and ethanol fuel? Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are talking alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. Does not make too much sense. Andrew - Original Message - From: Derick Giorchino To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would work. Good luck Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and Methanol if Ethanol will do all. Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion cost is less than US$20.00. To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash. This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and just walk away and not have the cleaning time. I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it all the carbs can not. My next step is to try and run 502 C.I.V8 engines and 351 modified engines and 350 C.I. engineswith 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved. Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel processing. Same question as JJJN I guess Doug ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
What are you people talking about? have you ever made any type of biofuel? Seems to me that you are confusing them all. Acid Base process and ethanol fuel? Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are talking alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not ethanol. Oh well. Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is here: Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor oil http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil Best Keith Does not make too much sense. Andrew - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would work. Good luck Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1 Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and Methanol if Ethanol will do all. Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion cost is less than US$20.00. To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash. This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and just walk away and not have the cleaning time. I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it all the carbs can not. My next step is to try and run 502 C.I. V8 engines and 351 modified engines and 350 C.I. engines with 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved. Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel processing. Same question as JJJN I guess Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until some one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips /paper and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read it over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per liter /gal or what ever. Thanks Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol What are you people talking about? have you ever made any type of biofuel? Seems to me that you are confusing them all. Acid Base process and ethanol fuel? Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are talking alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not ethanol. Oh well. Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is here: Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor oil http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil Best Keith Does not make too much sense. Andrew - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would work. Good luck Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1 Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and Methanol if Ethanol will do all. Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion cost is less than US$20.00. To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash. This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and just walk away and not have the cleaning time. I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it all the carbs can not. My next step is to try and run 502 C.I. V8 engines and 351 modified engines and 350 C.I. engines with 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
Derick, you are talking about cellolosic ethanol, that is ethanol made from cellulose, rather than from starch. This is the holy grail of ethanol production. Very small amounts of ethanol can be made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal and the cost high. My position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense. the problems are manifold. First is the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily separable from the cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more difficult that that of starch, and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily fermentable with yeast. Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least the 70's with little or no success. Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as the feedstock- cellulosic wastes-are abundant. Derick Giorchino wrote: No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until some one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips /paper and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read it over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per liter /gal or what ever. Thanks Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol What are you people talking about? have you ever made any type of biofuel? Seems to me that you are confusing them all. Acid Base process and ethanol fuel? Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are talking alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not ethanol. Oh well. Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is here: Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor oil http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil Best Keith Does not make too much sense. Andrew - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would work. Good luck Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1 Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and Methanol if Ethanol will do all. Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion cost is less than US
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
Thanks for the response Keith. This is very good info for me. I do not wish to spend a lot of time trying to do something that is close to imposable or just impractical. When I could be out collecting U.V.O. or making bio d. Would you have any idea what Doug is speeking of earlier in this post? He makes it sound like ethanol is easily done. I maybe reading into this though. Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:20 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Derick, you are talking about cellolosic ethanol, that is ethanol made from cellulose, rather than from starch. This is the holy grail of ethanol production. Very small amounts of ethanol can be made from sulfuric acid digestion of cellulose, but the yield is abysmal and the cost high. My position is it is not worth the time, trouble, and expense. the problems are manifold. First is the fact that the lignin present, which binds the cellulose, is not easily separable from the cellulose,and hydrolysis of cellulose to free the sugars is much more difficult that that of starch, and finally the sugars released from cellulose fermentation are not easily fermentable with yeast. Big bucks have been spent trying to solve these problems since at least the 70's with little or no success. Simply, if it were easy, it would be happening everywhere, as the feedstock- cellulosic wastes-are abundant. Derick Giorchino wrote: No Keith am not confused. I do make biodiesel. I use methanol and until some one has a better way that's what I will use. I was asking about the production of ethanol to use in other family vehicles. Since they are gas engines. I read on J.T.F. way back when I was starting the venture of bio. That ethanol can be made at home using wood chips /paper and I think there may have been also a mention of dry grass and brush and breaking it down with sulfuric acid. But I would need to go back and read it over. My quarry was as to the amount of yield verses raw product used per liter /gal or what ever. Thanks Derick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:40 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol What are you people talking about? have you ever made any type of biofuel? Seems to me that you are confusing them all. Acid Base process and ethanol fuel? Methanol vs ethanol? It has sense in biodiesel production, but you are talking alcohol fuel for petroleum engines. Doug is being a bit confusing. He was talking about both ethanol fuel in gasoline engines and using ethanol to make biodiesel. Gasoline engines will run on 80% ethanol and 20% water (ie 160 proof) but to make ethyl esters biodiesel the ethanol must be dry, and Doug doesn't know how to make dry ethanol (absolute), he can't do better than 85% ( you should be able to get 95% by distillation). So Doug's question about ethanol vs methanol for making biodiesel doesn't make much sense to me either. I don't think Doug has made biodiesel, or he wouldn't ask anyway - ethanol biodiesel is difficult to make, not for novices, not even when the ethanol is dry, methanol biodiesel is the way to start. I don't think we know of any novices who've succeeded with ethyl esters biodiesel. I don't know how Doug was planning to make methanol, there's no small-scale backyard way of producing methanol. He seems to think you can make it by treating sawdust with concentrated acid, but that makes ethanol, not methanol. I also don't understand the reference to the acid-base process for producing ethanol, the acid-base process at JtF produces biodiesel, not ethanol. Oh well. Has nobody yet discovered whether the castor oil method for producing absolute ethanol works or not? I've been after a source of 20 litres of castor oil here in Japan but I haven't found it yet. The method is here: Separating Ethanol From Water Via Differential Miscibility -- using castor oil http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html#castoil Best Keith Does not make too much sense. Andrew - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Derick Giorchino To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would work. Good luck
[Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and Methanol if Ethanol will do all. Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion cost is less than US$20.00. To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash. This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and just walk away and not have the cleaning time. I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it all the carbs can not. My next step is to try and run 502 C.I.V8 engines and 351 modified engines and 350 C.I. engineswith 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved. Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel processing. Same question as JJJN I guess Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and Methanol if Ethanol will do all. Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion cost is less than US$20.00. To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash. This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and just walk away and not have the cleaning time. I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it all the carbs can not. My next step is to try and run 502 C.I. V8 engines and 351 modified engines and 350 C.I. engines with 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved. Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel processing. Same question as JJJN I guess Doug I think you said quite some time ago that you were making biodiesel with ethanol. Have you actually made any ethyl esters biodiesel yet, or any biodiesel yet? Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol
Hi Doug I am interested in the ethanol production you are using. What is it can you point me in the right direction? Is it the acid base as is explained at J.T.F.? As for the carb problems maybe a marine carb is more tolerant of the alcohol fuel if not there are places that could chrome or anodize the carb bowls for a price you would need to re thread all the holes. Or maybe powder coating would work. Good luck Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of lres1 Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:03 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol V's Methanol Would like to know the advantages if any of using Methanol instead of Ethanol in making bio-diesel. It is very easy to make Ethanol with down to 15% water. Seems kinda silly to make Ethanol and Methanol if Ethanol will do all. Have now got a MPEFI Jeep running on 80% Ethanol and 20% water as a straight injection. Have a few bugs to work out but total conversion cost is less than US$20.00. To convert back to RUG is a flick of a switch on the dash. This makes more sense now to use the Ethanol instead of making Methanol for bio-diesel production as I already make the ethanol and it can replace RUG in a MPEFI engine or standard carb engine. I still have no replies on how to lacquer or coat an alloy carburetor to stop reactions with the Ethanol. At present The system is fully drained and blown with compressed air to clear out all water and Ethanol. Would be kinda nice to be able to shut the engines off and just walk away and not have the cleaning time. I do not want to get rid of the water in my Ethanol replacement for RUG as it gives much more power than RUG at 80 to 85% Ethanol and 15 to 20% water mix. The plasticized fuel tanks and lines can handle it all the carbs can not. My next step is to try and run 502 C.I.V8 engines and 351 modified engines and 350 C.I. engineswith 4 barrel hollies on Ethanol but need to clear up the carb reaction problems with the alloys involved. Would like to know how to get to 0.5% water for bio-diesel processing. Same question as JJJN I guess Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use
Hi Charles There is a patented information about using the zeolites at the top of the reactor , which can be very selective to adsorb and return back pure alcohol see google search using free patent site. Then you can recover the catalyst using solar energy to remove water.In the case of ethanol , the higher temperature , I am not sure that higher can fovour the reaction.Can any one have the experience to give more informatiion? With kind regars to all biofuel members yours truelyPannirselvam P.V2006/8/21, Charles List [EMAIL PROTECTED] :Hi allIt's slowly turning to spring down here in the southern hemisphere, and a young man's thoughts turn to what he's going to get up to inthose long summer evenings. Me, I think only of biofuel! I am havinggood progress and results with methanol but my long term plan is tobe completely self- sufficient and ferment my own ethanol to use in my reaction. I will first buy some denatured ethanol to practice on,and I have read what is on the JtF web-site and realise I will needto really dewater my oil, use more ethanol than methanol etc. I wouldlike to know, however, if I can increase the temperature of the reaction mixture to cut down the time taken for the reaction asethanol boils at 78C rather than 65C, and if there are any otherhints/ tips people can give through their experience of this reaction.Thanks Charles List This email was sent using Telecom SchoolZone.www.schoolzone.net.nz This email has been scanned for viruses by Telecom SchoolZone,but is not guaranteed to be virus-free.--___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia QuímicaCT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RNCampus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970http://pannirbr.googlepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage 3215-3769 ramal 210casa 3215-1557 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use
Hello Ken, Charles et al. Ethanol can be somewhat tricky to deal with when it comes to producing biodiesel. The glycerine drop is related to the amount of ethyl esters that you have created during the process. This is suggesting that you will need a certain qty of ethyl esters produced in order to have a spontaneous glycerol drop. To make sure that you have a sufficient amount, the ethanol stochiometric surplus should be at least 75% or rather 100%. The stochiometric relationships are much more important than increasing of the reaction temperature, say 5 or 10 degrees. But also note that the ethanol inserted has to be anhydrous. Best of luck to you ! Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use On Aug 21, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Charles List wrote: I would like to know, however, if I can increase the temperature of the reaction mixture to cut down the time taken for the reaction as ethanol boils at 78C rather than 65C. You probably could, but the separation of glycerol takes such a long time with ethanol (hours maybe), and the reactants are all in solution that whole time (completely clear, single phase), that you probably don't need more than the usual heating to get the reaction to go as far as it will. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol use
Hi all It's slowly turning to spring down here in the southern hemisphere, and a young man's thoughts turn to what he's going to get up to in those long summer evenings. Me, I think only of biofuel! I am having good progress and results with methanol but my long term plan is to be completely self- sufficient and ferment my own ethanol to use in my reaction. I will first buy some denatured ethanol to practice on, and I have read what is on the JtF web-site and realise I will need to really dewater my oil, use more ethanol than methanol etc. I would like to know, however, if I can increase the temperature of the reaction mixture to cut down the time taken for the reaction as ethanol boils at 78C rather than 65C, and if there are any other hints/ tips people can give through their experience of this reaction. Thanks Charles List -- -- This email was sent using Telecom SchoolZone. www.schoolzone.net.nz This email has been scanned for viruses by Telecom SchoolZone, but is not guaranteed to be virus-free. -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol use
On Aug 21, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Charles List wrote: I would like to know, however, if I can increase the temperature of the reaction mixture to cut down the time taken for the reaction as ethanol boils at 78C rather than 65C. You probably could, but the separation of glycerol takes such a long time with ethanol (hours maybe), and the reactants are all in solution that whole time (completely clear, single phase), that you probably don't need more than the usual heating to get the reaction to go as far as it will. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol powered planes of Brazil... was Sharing Biodiesel
Hello Matthew Law and all. On July 26th, 2006 you wrote: My biggest issue is that I love to fly. Almost all aeroplanes still use leaded avgas in very old, mega-inefficient engines. So, all the work I may do to reduce my nasty emissions every day is probably cancelled by the one or two hours flying I do every month. Yes, there are diesel 'planes coming on to the market, but what we really need is bio jet fuel which probably won't happen in my lifetime given the speed at which the aviation regulators work. Or even better, electric aeroplanes. Matt. You do not need too long to see something new in the air. There are already Brazilian planes with aviation engines certified for ethanol use. The first was a crop dusting aeroplane Ipanema, later some of those engines were available for other small planes as I read lately in a local newspaper one of them was used here as an ambulance plane for poor people in remote areas. The Brazilian Air Force is looking for certification of its T-25 basic trainer with a ethanol powered engine. Engine consumption is 30% higher but for the same size deliver +5% more power compared with aviation gasoline but flying with ethanol was 25% cheaper because ethanol is much cheaper than av-gas. If you live in North America, the pumps at the nearest airfield would not have av-ethanol right now so you might need to carry your own fuel. See the site from the Brazilian aviation builder: http://www.embraer.com/ http://www.embraer.com.br/institucional/download.asp?onde=downloadarqui vo=2_083-Prd-VPI-Ethanol_Ipanema_Certification-I-04.pdf http://www.embraer.com/english/content/imprensa/press_release.asp?press_ release_id=880ano=2004 http://www.embraer.com.br/institucional/download/2_053-Prd-VOP-Ipanema_W ins_Flight_Intl_Award-I-05.pdf Other links with more information are below, they are in Portuguese or English ETHANOL-FUELED IPANEMA CERTIFIED BY THE CTA http://www.defesanet.com.br/embraer/neiva1_e.htm CTA certifica 1o aviao militar a alcool http://www.defesanet.com.br/fab/cta_alcool.htm http://www.defesanet.com.br/embraer/ipanema_sci_ame.htm http://www.defesanet.com.br/embraer/ipanema_sci_ame_ee.htm http://www.defesanet.com.br/fab/cta_alcool.htm Best Regards. Juan Boveda Paraguay -Original- From: Matthew Law [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 Jul 2006 11:28 For:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject:Re: [Biofuel] Sharing Biodiesel I traded my old car in for a pretty economical turbo diesel which, although it isn't running on BD yet, it will be once I get past the experimenting stage and on to bigger batches. My neighbour is taking a keen and reasoned interest in my endeavours and suggests his next vehicle will be diesel so he can take the same route as I. I would have no problem sharing my BD with him if the net effect of two cars on say, BD50 is better than one on BD100, even though I would reluctantly have to take some from the pumps. My biggest issue is that I love to fly. Almost all aeroplanes still use leaded avgas in very old, mega-inefficient engines. So, all the work I may do to reduce my nasty emissions every day is probably cancelled by the one or two hours flying I do every month. Yes, there are diesel 'planes coming on to the market, but what we really need is bio jet fuel which probably won't happen in my lifetime given the speed at which the aviation regulators work. Or even better, electric aeroplanes. Matt. ___ Information from NOD32 This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System for Linux Mail Servers. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] ethanol crunch?
there is a gas station in my hometown that was selling E85 and was doing a real good job until his wholesalers started raising their prices claiming lack of supply. im tempted to move back to illinois and feed his tanks just to twist the petrol companies collective nose. maybe even supplant the diesel tankers as well? i should probably stop, im getting ideas Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Hi Ethanol is close to gasoline when referring to fueling energy to an engine. Therefore cetane number is low even though ethanol prefers higher pressure than regular gasoline. So ethanol diesel blend to be viable as fuel and easy the blending has to have two supports: cetane improver additive to easy combustion and a electronic/software combination which can adjust ignition timing and pumpin all the time. ( Please remember atomiztion is diferent also!) In order to reduce the amount of additive ( very expensive and it is like TNT - worsening stability) I assume they use some diesel so it helps ignition (Please note) This reminds me the natural gas/diesel dual fuel engine where the diesel is used as the spark plug and the electronics do the rest. Please remember when we have two types of fuel two explosions will always happen and in the case of the diesel/cetane improver/alcohol we might have three explosions and this is not good for the engine so in the long run efficiency is jeopardize severely. Hakan you are right: The cetane improver experiences with alcohol have been done a long time by Scania and in fact they tried to introduce this technology in Brasil. It is not used because it was considered too expensive. The consumption should be much higher than the 100% diesel ( energy content per mass and volume admission in the combustion chamber ) and considering the new refining technologies the emissions of the new blend should not be better. We still do not know the effect of aldehyde on the environment a please pay attention nitrates generates NOx thru exhaust pipe and aldehyde and NOx are always there when using alcohol. Also diesel engines do operate at higher temperatures and this can affect exhaust gases worsening emissions environmentally speaking. In my opinion we have to scrutinize this approach thouruglly and this approach it is not novel. I love ppo svo and biodiesel. very best fo rall of us Chic Hakan Falk wrote: Keith, If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and more common that the buses use biofuel. Hakan At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Just wanting to make some remarks . The Scania ethanol buses are running on a special ethanol quality blend consisting from ethanol (95%), a cetane improver called Bereid, which I am told is a polyglycol, and a lubricant. The injection timing is normal (approx 20 degrees before TDC) and all engines are equipped with intercooler which functions as an air heater when the engine runs on idle. Ethanol is not self-evident as a diesel fuel, but progress has been done. Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: FRANCISCO To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 4:25 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines HiEthanol is close to gasoline when referring to fueling energy to an engine. Therefore cetane number is low even though ethanol prefers higher pressure than regular gasoline. So ethanol diesel blend to be viable as fuel and easy the blending has to have two supports: cetane improver additive to easy combustion and a electronic/software combination which can adjust ignition timing and pumpin all the time. ( Please remember atomiztion is diferent also!) In order to reduce the amount of additive ( very expensive and it is like TNT - worsening stability) I assume they use some diesel so it helps ignition (Please note) This reminds me the natural gas/diesel dual fuel engine where the diesel is used as the spark plug and the electronics do the rest. Please remember when we have two types of fuel two explosions will always happen and in the case of the diesel/cetane improver/alcohol we might have three explosions and this is not good for the engine so in the long run efficiency is jeopardize severely.Hakan you are right: The cetane improver experiences with alcohol have been done a long time by Scania and in fact they tried to introduce this technology in Brasil. It is not used because it was considered too expensive. The consumption should be much higher than the 100% diesel ( energy content per mass and volume admission in the combustion chamber ) and considering the new refining technologies the emissions of the new blend should not be better. We still do not know the effect of aldehyde on the environment a please pay attention nitrates generates NOx thru exhaust pipe and aldehyde and NOx are always there when using alcohol. Also diesel engines do operate at higher temperatures and this can affect exhaust gases worsening emissions environmentally speaking.In my opinion we have to scrutinize this approach thouruglly and this approach it is not novel. I love ppo svo and biodiesel.very best fo rall of usChicHakan Falk wrote: Keith, If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and more common that the buses use biofuel. Hakan At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Ah, it just opens the new energy path. If only the BD could be used for diesels, only the energy from oily plants can be harvested for usage in cars. With this new path, more avenues are opened. Energy input from starchy plants (especially keeping in mind the ethanol generation from celulose) can now be tapped. This setup might be more suitable for colder climates, than current rapeseed approach. Anyway, ethanol burning in the diesel is more economical than burning the same ethanol in otto cycle engines (the current crop of flex-fuel vehicles). The only nagging question is that additive mentioned in the article. Jason Katie wrote: if the exhaust isnt any better than a gasoline engine on ethanol, what difference would it make whether or not it was ethy or BD? it sounds like the additive isnt all the best either -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Keith, If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and more common that the buses use biofuel. Hakan At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
if the exhaust isnt any better than a gasoline engine on ethanol, what difference would it make whether or not it was ethy or BD? it sounds like the additive isnt all the best either - Original Message - From: Tomas Juknevicius [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/355 - Release Date: 6/2/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/358 - Release Date: 6/7/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol boom or bust?
Ethanol boom or bust? Whether Canada's answer to Kyoto will work is the mystery Paul Jay Citizen Special Saturday, May 27, 2006 Murray Sharp can remember his days working for a farm co-operative in Chatham, Ont., in 1965, back when corn fetched $4 a bushel and the promise of a good living for farmers was high. Now 63, the retired elementary school teacher is a long way from the corn business, instead running with his wife a small organics farm in Florence, Ont., although he does sell corn seeds as well. It's nearly impossible to make a living at it, he says. It was $4 a bushel then, which if you figure inflation should be about $40 now. But instead, it's sitting around $2.65, says Mr. Sharp, the former president of the National Farmers Union local in Lampton county. A century ago, the foundations of Canada's growth lay in the fields of farmers. And while agriculture has always been a foundation of Canada's bounty of natural resources, in recent years harvesters have faced tough times. The 1990s saw prairie farmers lose grain transportation subsidies and go into heavier debt loads as commodity prices sank. The real money in foreign markets was oil, and it became the golden boy in Canada's class of natural resources. But a new market for farmers to sell their grain -- and potentially their waste -- appears to be opening in Canada, with the federal government's announcement in Regina this week of a nationwide commitment to mandate the use of ethanol in gasoline. It was trumpeted as a victory for the environment and hailed as a model for future federal provincial cooperation. But what it may also signal is a new source of wealth for farmers in corn-rich Ontario, as well as in the prairies, where wheat can also be used to make the compound. If the model of the United States is any indication, a move towards ethanol will mean big business for corn and wheat producers north of the border. It begs the question: are farmers set to become the latest fuel barons in Canada? Perhaps of larger importance is the impact of ethanol itself. Blending ethanol with gasoline is seen as a solution to oil dependence, pollution and a struggling agricultural sector, but is it really the answer? Are we asking too much of a compound more commonly associated with moonshine? The Canadian Renewable Fuels Association thinks ethanol is up to the task. Jeff Passmore, a vice-chairman with the association, points to the study by Michael Wang of Argonne National Laboratories in the U.S., which showed corn ethanol can reduce greenhouse gases by anywhere from 18 to 29 per cent. Others, such as the U.S.-based Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Technologies, aren't convinced. We see biofuels like ethanol and biodiesel as the on-ramp onto the hydrogen highway, as just one component of the solution, says John Shears, a visiting research fellow with the centre. But corn grain-derived ethanol doesn't get us benefits on the energy side and provide debatable benefits on the environment side. Critics point out that both the energy and monetary cost of producing ethanol outweigh its potential gain. Others point to studies which suggest the use of small amounts of ethanol in gasoline, like the five per cent target for 2010 mandated by the federal government, may actually promote the release of smog-producing evaporative emissions. And consumer groups are concerned that the federal-provincial initiatives will adversely affect people at the pump. Few can debate, however, that ethanol has become a hot commodity. In 2005, U.S. production of ethanol was 15 billion litres annually, with a requirement under the Energy Policy Act to increase production to 28 billion litres by 2012. Canada is expected to reach 650 million litres by 2010, triple the amount produced now. And much of this ethanol is earmarked for automobiles. The big three automakers in Detroit are producing vehicles capable of using an 85-per cent ethanol blend (or E85), well above the 10 per cent ethanol content that represents the limit most cars on the road today can handle before the ethanol's corrosive qualities wear on valves and fittings. There are already about five million E85 vehicles on the road in North America, but all but the oldest vehicles are equipped to handle at least 10 per cent. How did ethanol become the fuel of choice so quickly? The popularity of the compound, most commonly created by distilling crops such as corn in the United States or sugarcane in Brazil, has benefited not only from rising oil prices and fears over instability in the Middle East, but also changes in environmental legislation south of the border. In 1990, the Clean Air Act in the U.S. required oil companies to add oxygen-rich compounds to their gasoline to combat smog in polluted cities. Ethanol and methyl tertiary butyl ether, or MTBE, were the two most common additives. But after environmental studies found MTBE --
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol boom or bust?
Hi Darryl and all, We´ve seen a sharp jump in the price of sugar here in Uruguay. It had been about 13 Uruguayan pesos (about .50 U.S. dollars). Now its about 23 pesos. Tom Irwin From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:21:25 -0300Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol boom or bust?Ethanol boom or bust?Whether Canada's answer to Kyoto will work is the mystery Snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol for rural households
Fwd from the Stoves list at repp. Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:57:25 +0530 From: nari phaltan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Stoves] Ethanol for rural households Dear stovers, I hope you enjoy reading the following on this subject. http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net/ruralethanol.pdf Cheers. Anil -- Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI) Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road P.O.Box 44 Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India Ph:91-2166-222396/220945 e-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://nariphaltan.virtualave.net ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol without distillation
I also pulled paper from internet using googleArticle Ethanol production by extractive fermentation M. Minier, G. Goma *Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France *Correspondence to G. Goma, Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France setDOI("ADOI=10.1002/bit.260240710")Abstract The ideal method to produce a terminal metabolite inhibitor of cell growth and production is to remove and recover it from the fermenting broth as it formed. Extractive fermentation is achieved in the case of ethanol production by coupling both fermentation and liquid-liquid extraction, The solvent of extraction is 1-dodecanol (or a mixture 1-dedecanol, 1-tetradecanol); study of the inhibitory effect of primary aliphatic alcohols of different chain lengths shows that no growth is observed in the presence of alcohols which have between 2 and 12 carbons. This effect is suppressed when the carbon number is 12 or higher. A new reactor has been used-1 pulsed packed column. Pulsation is performed pneumatically. Porous material used as a package adsorbs the cells. The fermentation broth is pulsed in order to (1) increase the interfacial area between the aqueous phase and the dodecanol, (2) decrease gas holdup. Alcoholic fermentation, performed at 35°C on glucose syrup, permits the total utilization of glucose solution of 409 g/L with a yeast which cannot-in classical process- completely use solutions with 200 g/L of glucose. The feasibility of a new method of fermentation coupling both liquid-liquid extraction and fermentation is demonstrated. Extension of this method is possible to any microbial production inhibited by its metabolite excretion. The octanol from castor can be better one than Castor oil. Pure Castor oil canbe good one. The pulsing fase seperation can help the seperation very fast. In Canada the extractive fermentation has been shown to be very sucessful.For small scale we need still simplify this process.This very usful information published in JTF can end the distillation process and hence the need for Bioler and its high pressure pump. yet more information is needed, as this process can give pure ethanol, almost all the information is kept as industrial top secret or sold .Jason go ahead practical experiments and I am sure you are in right direction and we , small research group from Brazil wish this process a big sucess .If any one from the list has used this process .Let us know sd PannirselvamJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i pulled a paper from the library describing separating ethanol from water using castor oil. can this be done using any kind of oil, or are their certain characteristics of the oil not described in the paper?http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol without distillation
I also pulled paper from internet using googleArticle Ethanol production by extractive fermentation M. Minier, G. Goma *Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France *Correspondence to G. Goma, Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France setDOI("ADOI=10.1002/bit.260240710")Abstract The ideal method to produce a terminal metabolite inhibitor of cell growth and production is to remove and recover it from the fermenting broth as it formed. Extractive fermentation is achieved in the case of ethanol production by coupling both fermentation and liquid-liquid extraction, The solvent of extraction is 1-dodecanol (or a mixture 1-dedecanol, 1-tetradecanol); study of the inhibitory effect of primary aliphatic alcohols of different chain lengths shows that no growth is observed in the presence of alcohols which have between 2 and 12 carbons. This effect is suppressed when the carbon number is 12 or higher. A new reactor has been used-1 pulsed packed column. Pulsation is performed pneumatically. Porous material used as a package adsorbs the cells. The fermentation broth is pulsed in order to (1) increase the interfacial area between the aqueous phase and the dodecanol, (2) decrease gas holdup. Alcoholic fermentation, performed at 35°C on glucose syrup, permits the total utilization of glucose solution of 409 g/L with a yeast which cannot-in classical process- completely use solutions with 200 g/L of glucose. The feasibility of a new method of fermentation coupling both liquid-liquid extraction and fermentation is demonstrated. Extension of this method is possible to any microbial production inhibited by its metabolite excretion. The octanol from castor can be better one than Castor oil. Pure Castor oil canbe good one. The pulsing fase seperation can help the seperation very fast. In Canada the extractive fermentation has been shown to be very sucessful.For small scale we need still simplify this process.This very usful information published in JTF can end the distillation process and hence the need for Bioler and its high pressure pump. yet more information is needed, as this process can give pure ethanol, almost all the information is kept as industrial top secret or sold .Jason go ahead practical experiments and I am sure you are in right direction and we , small research group from Brazil wish this process a big sucess .If any one from the list has used this process .Let us know sd PannirselvamJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i pulled a paper from the library describing separating ethanol from water using castor oil. can this be done using any kind of oil, or are their certain characteristics of the oil not described in the paper?http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol vs Biodiesel
On Feb 3, 2006, at 12:58 PM, anna b wrote: I am curious as to why ethanol has dominated the recent discussion in main stream media of alternative fuels. The way I see it biodiesel is already available as are diesel cars to use it. Think of the historical difference in cost between bread and olive oil. Ethanol can be made from bread, biodiesel requires vegoil. The quality of the feedstock is much higher for biodiesel, and so will be the cost -- especially in those places where waste oils (ie, fried foods) aren't so readily available as in suburban US. Also, biodiesel requires constructing production facilities that don't exist presently. Ethanol is a common product worldwide already. Also, of course, Bush's friends would rather make ethanol :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?
Hi all, As you will know, glycerin is highly hygroscopic. Did anyone of you ever try to make 100% ethanol (200 proof) using glycerin ? Pieter Netherlands. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?
Are you saying that it may be possible to take the gycerin by product after making biodiesel, ferment it then distill it to make ethanol? -Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bioclaire Nederland Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:53 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ? Hi all, As you will know, glycerin is highly hygroscopic. Did anyone of you ever try to make 100% ethanol (200 proof) using glycerin ? Pieter Netherlands. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?
Are you saying that it may be possible to take the gycerin by product after making biodiesel, ferment it then distill it to make ethanol? -Mark See: Absolute Alcohol Using Glycerine http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#alcglyc Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bioclaire Nederland Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:53 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ? Hi all, As you will know, glycerin is highly hygroscopic. Did anyone of you ever try to make 100% ethanol (200 proof) using glycerin ? Pieter Netherlands. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Can somebody explain me what is Drano ? Pieter. - Original Message - From: Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method This is more a warning than a question. But many years ago I was told that if you put Drano in a ping pong ball by use of a syringe then seal the hole. Throw the ball in gasoline and run your ass off. The gas was supposed to melt the ball and there was supposed to be a very big explosion. I never tried this although I was young at the time, I was not that stupid. If this is true gas in bio with lye have a negative effect. As I said this maybe a myth but its worth checking on. Good health. Derick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:46 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too much. Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for mixing it with 15% gasoline or such. While I don't think this is necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil, not problems with the gasoline component per se. It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline, although I am not sure about that. Z On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Here in Paraguay absolute alcohol takes place to use in cars with structure modified mechanics, it is pure ethanol. That is here an advantage. then like you recommend to make ethoxid?, if it is with KOH, like you to extract 5% of water that it is generated with the reaction KOH + EtOH.. I will prove again with NaOH in 7 g/l heating. Then I will see that it happens. How much isgood proportion to prove with new oil? _ Descubre la descarga digital con MSN Music. Más de un millón de canciones. http://music.msn.es/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Sorry Pieter I guess I should have told you Drano is a NHO caustic soda base drain cleaner. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bioclaire Nederland Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:03 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method Can somebody explain me what is Drano ? Pieter. - Original Message - From: Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method This is more a warning than a question. But many years ago I was told that if you put Drano in a ping pong ball by use of a syringe then seal the hole. Throw the ball in gasoline and run your ass off. The gas was supposed to melt the ball and there was supposed to be a very big explosion. I never tried this although I was young at the time, I was not that stupid. If this is true gas in bio with lye have a negative effect. As I said this maybe a myth but its worth checking on. Good health. Derick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:46 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too much. Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for mixing it with 15% gasoline or such. While I don't think this is necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil, not problems with the gasoline component per se. It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline, although I am not sure about that. Z On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method in remote place
Hello Anthonio, Ken and Keith Iam sure that big company like BASF are trying to make ethoxideIN GLOBAL Market in big scale to sell to ruralpeople (high price too) so that Biod can be easily made with ethoxide( ethanol and NaOH)using patended catalyst, butwe can make in the cites this one as well outined process by Ken here ( Thanka a lot for HEN) thus BioD can be produced by any oneand any where, especially where even in rural remote place .This can be more practical and easy wayso that Anthoni can get help from university in the city , who has technical skill to make possible the dificult part of the process ( the chemical engineering people like us ) colaborating , his dreams to make cheap biofuel,can be the wish of all our members inthe list. Can any here in our list , and sure Keith to to bring here the stae of art of making the Biod in different places, what is pro and against the etoxide methods.Can this method can help or not the biofuel development against the petroleium fuel. Thanking you Yours truely Pannirselvam P.V Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOHHave you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It isdifficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps byboiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possiblymake biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOHper liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you willprobably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All youringredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Bring words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method in remote place
On Jan 26, 2006, at 2:29 AM, pan ruti wrote: I am sure that big company like BASF are trying to make ethoxide IN GLOBAL Market in big scale to sell to rural people (high price too) so that Biod can be easily made with ethoxide( ethanol and NaOH). If you started with pure sodium ethoxide as a catalyst rather than trying to make your own with ethanol and lye, you could have an easier time of it. Might be hard to find in a rural area, but it has the added advantage of not contributing water to the mix. You could also use sodium metal rather than lye (!!!) to produce your own ethoxide. Can any here in our list ..what is pro and against the ethoxide methods. The biggest disadvantage of ethanol over methanol is that the base-catalyzed biodiesel reactions do not occur as readily, since ethanol is less acidic than methanol. More catalyst is needed, and more ethanol to drive the equilibrium. Acid-catalyzed ESTERification (of soapstock or FFA) would occur just as easily with ethanol as methanol. Another major problem with ethanol is that distillation alone will not produce anhydrous ethanol, which is essential for the base-catalyzed method. The biggest advantage of ethanol is the obvious one -- it is readily produced and distilled (but not easily dried) all over the world from renewable sources. The best solution for biodiesel would be a cheap easy way to make methanol from biomass. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/