Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Oh, and it's not really an alley, so I wouldn't tag it as such. A On 08/07/2015, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: We have something similar in Korea. I have been using (and recommending) highway=service. They're not really tracks, as they are proper roads, with a concrete or tarmac surface, But, they don't really go anywhere. I change the tags when the road actually becomes a track (two lines of worn dirt where the tractor wheels go). I think it's an accurate representation, and it renders nicely in most views too. Andrew On 08/07/2015, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: On 7/8/2015 1:25 AM, johnw wrote: [trimmed] The issue is that these “small windy roads that go everywhere” go nowhere. the land they access is for farming the subdivided sections ... lead you on a tour of the local rice plots and hills. it is basically access for the farmers, which then have a network of (private?) tracks and paths that break the sections down further. they just loop around a big rice field, or connect to other roads which service other rice fields or logging plots: nothing of interest - not even a house - is there. Only the local farmers need use of them, but they are public. it’s the purpose of the road - the lack of shoulders and other road standards, and expected curves, turns, and other “classifications” of the road. From what you've said about the purpose, it sounds like highway=track. The conditions (paved or not, etc) would then dictate the tracktype and other tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
On 8/07/2015 8:49 PM, Warin wrote: On 8/07/2015 5:27 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-07-08 1:54 GMT+02:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com: Voting for this 'property' is now open. Wedding Reception Definition: A place where a social event is held after the completion of a wedding ceremony. Note that it is a 'property' rather than a key:value (what I call a sub tag). It may be applied to any key:value examples; building=yes wedding_reception=yes leisure=park wedding_reception=yes Are wedding receptions special with regard to other private celebrations like birthdays, baptisms, anniversaries, presentations? They look to be separated by the venues . https://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/welcome/royal_botanic_garden/weddings_and_venues/weddings What is the criterion for wedding_reception=yes (i.e. is it sufficient that there once was a wedding reception, or do they have to occur frequently?). There are vast belief/cultural difference across the globe for weddings and their receptions!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_reception In general I believe something more generic like event_space (or maybe a little more specific) would be better, because wedding reception places (at least the ones I am aware of) typically also can be used for other kind of celebrations. I wish to remove the possibility of a mapper looking for a tag for a wedding reception using the proposed reception/reception_point/reception_area by error. I could simple create a wiki page with that title and direct them to a generic tag .. but a google on wedding reception shows the popularity of this function. Google search numbers wedding reception 169,000,000 Birthday venues 75,800,000 anniversary venue 59,500,000 presentation venue 86,800,000 So wedding venues look to be about twice the numbers of the others... For comparison the OSM tag amenity=music_venue has 91,000,000 google search numbers (searched for music venue)... And yes a music venue might also be used for other things too. Google search on event venue returns 292,000,000 results .. I don't think all of them would be suitable for a wedding reception.And the numbers are about half those of wedding reception. ? What do you think? :-\ One other thing .. the draft proposal for amenity=events_venue is for a stand alone facility and shows a photo of a building. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Devents_venue What about when the 'event' is in a garden, a park, a mountain top or on a beach? These places are not stand alone and some are used by the public at other times. e.g. https://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/welcome/royal_botanic_garden/weddings_and_venues/weddings A restaurant may hold a wedding reception (in a separated room but probably a common entry) ... and so you have the situation where on OSM you have amenity=restaurant with the tag amenity=event_venue? Needs more thinking on the event_venue thing. But I think there are enough wedding reception venues to have there own tag? -- A range of examples can be found here http://www.i-do.com.au/wedding-services/waterfront-venues/sydney/ A dojo, a beach, a hotel, a fort (in the middle of Sydney Harbour), a zoo, and on. there is a very large variety... I think it is a property tag .. not a key:feature tag. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
On 2015-07-08 01:54, Warin wrote : Hi Voting for this 'property' is now open. Wedding Reception Definition: A place where a social event is held after the completion of a wedding ceremony. Note that it is a 'property' rather than a key:value (what I call a sub tag). It may be applied to any key:value examples; In LST, it's called an attribute which can be an attribute of the object or of another attribute. The object is the physical thing that's on-the-so-called-ground. This gives the canonical forms: building=yes wedding_reception=yes building:wedding_reception=yes leisure=park wedding_reception=yes leisure:park:wedding_reception=yes but this is incorrect because 'leisure' is not an object. LTS tries to avoid compound definitions and to define atoms like wedding and reception separately. Then we have the molecule reception:wedding. And, in fact, as events_venue has already been defined for reception: park:events_venue:wedding=yes But I find that events_venue weird an I prefer simpler reception instead: park:reception:wedding=yes The normal, abridged form is: park=yes reception:wedding=yes (because park:... is implicit) as well as park=yes leisure=yes or park=leisure Cheers André. And so on. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wedding_reception ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
The normal, abridged form is: park=yes reception:wedding=yes (because park:... is implicit) as well as park=yes leisure=yes or park=leisure since when is either park=yes or park=leisure the accepted way of tagging a park ? It's leisure=park. If you want to propose a different way of tagging things, please do so in a separate tread. Bringing it up on each new proposal is confusing IMHO. regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 To me this (along with the description) is highway=track tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for good measure. The difference between track and service is not about the quality of the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture, service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary tags even more usefull. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On 7/8/2015 2:44 AM, Andrew Errington wrote: They're not really tracks, as they are proper roads, with a concrete or tarmac surface, But, they don't really go anywhere. Tracks can be paved - tracktype=grade1 normally is paved, or is built to equivalent quality. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
On 8/07/2015 5:27 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-07-08 1:54 GMT+02:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com: Voting for this 'property' is now open. Wedding Reception Definition: A place where a social event is held after the completion of a wedding ceremony. Note that it is a 'property' rather than a key:value (what I call a sub tag). It may be applied to any key:value examples; building=yes wedding_reception=yes leisure=park wedding_reception=yes Are wedding receptions special with regard to other private celebrations like birthdays, baptisms, anniversaries, presentations? They look to be separated by the venues . https://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/welcome/royal_botanic_garden/weddings_and_venues/weddings What is the criterion for wedding_reception=yes (i.e. is it sufficient that there once was a wedding reception, or do they have to occur frequently?). There are vast belief/cultural difference across the globe for weddings and their receptions!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_reception In general I believe something more generic like event_space (or maybe a little more specific) would be better, because wedding reception places (at least the ones I am aware of) typically also can be used for other kind of celebrations. I wish to remove the possibility of a mapper looking for a tag for a wedding reception using the proposed reception/reception_point/reception_area by error. I could simple create a wiki page with that title and direct them to a generic tag .. but a google on wedding reception shows the popularity of this function. Google search numbers wedding reception 169,000,000 Birthday venues 75,800,000 anniversary venue 59,500,000 presentation venue 86,800,000 So wedding venues look to be about twice the numbers of the others... For comparison the OSM tag amenity=music_venue has 91,000,000 google search numbers (searched for music venue)... And yes a music venue might also be used for other things too. Google search on event venue returns 292,000,000 results .. I don't think all of them would be suitable for a wedding reception.And the numbers are about half those of wedding reception. ? What do you think? :-\ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
I agree, but I based my choice on the description in the wiki. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dservice On 08/07/2015, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: On 7/8/2015 2:44 AM, Andrew Errington wrote: They're not really tracks, as they are proper roads, with a concrete or tarmac surface, But, they don't really go anywhere. Tracks can be paved - tracktype=grade1 normally is paved, or is built to equivalent quality. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Rural Alley?
I live in Japan, where most of the flat land is covered in extremely mixed use cities and farm fields. Being an old asian country, there are tons and tons of old windy local roads that go everywhere, and being a first wold country, also a modern roadway system meant for cars. The modern roadway system cuts through the old roads, so there are often little tiny paved, public roads that lead off everywhere. The issue is that these “small windy roads that go everywhere” go nowhere. the land they access is for farming the subdivided sections which follow the natural valleys and hills (as opposed to the large farming fields in the US), and the unclassified roads in the area end up being the only useful local roads, as they are the only ones that go somewhere directly, or don’t lead you on a tour of the local rice plots and hills. Since there is usually no housing (or a single farm house for a valley), it isn’t residential - there are no residents. it is basically access for the farmers, which then have a network of (private?) tracks and paths that break the sections down further. This also is not about some logging track that disappears into the mountains, but roads that connect these tracks and paths to the unclassified roads. If this was in a city, I would use Alley - narrow and inconvenient roads meant just for extremely local access, and usually not used for routing, even in the neighborhood they are in - and not recommended for travellers trying to go through the area. So I have been using Alley - It is the only road that sits between residential and track. these farm roads meet every one of the Alley definitions - except for the parallel nature of alleys in very rural settings. These are often times a kilometer or so long - but they just loop around a big rice field, or connect to other roads which service other rice fields or logging plots: nothing of interest - not even a house - is there. Only the local farmers need use of them, but they are public. Rendering them as residential roads is very detrimental to the map - yes it does cause needless clutter - but that doesn’t bother me so much, though it is very difficult to tell what actually is the local “through” road. The major issues is, like an alley, they are narrow, and serve no other purpose than local access. It also blacklists these roads for all but local access by the routing engine, so you don’t end up on a road wide enough to just barely pass a bicyclist. Farmers use small little trucks just over a meter wide - they can go easily where a car or a delivery van would be concerned about oncoming traffic. As a user of Apple Maps and Google Maps in Japan - Japan’s road network classifications do not translate perfectly into western ideas - so the directions send me down very narrow yet paved and publicly accessible roads that I curse the map makers for allowing to be used for routing. It’s more than width - it’s the purpose of the road - the lack of shoulders and other road standards, and expected curves, turns, and other “classifications” of the road. These cover Japan like cobwebs in the rural areas, and are seemingly one level below residential or unclassified, and similarly above “track” Japanese suburban: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3414/139.1660 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/36.3414/139.1660 Japanese Rural, with a motorway and a train line cutting through. It’s not complete, but it gives you an idea. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.7957/140.3560 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/35.7957/140.3560 note the “unclassified” roads everywhere around this section. half of these are Tracks, yet to be properly tagged after an import 3-5 years ago. I’m cleaning up the area around Japan’s biggest Airport. Using “Alley” in this way has given me good results, and I would like to make it more official. Thoughts? Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
We have something similar in Korea. I have been using (and recommending) highway=service. They're not really tracks, as they are proper roads, with a concrete or tarmac surface, But, they don't really go anywhere. I change the tags when the road actually becomes a track (two lines of worn dirt where the tractor wheels go). I think it's an accurate representation, and it renders nicely in most views too. Andrew On 08/07/2015, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: On 7/8/2015 1:25 AM, johnw wrote: [trimmed] The issue is that these “small windy roads that go everywhere” go nowhere. the land they access is for farming the subdivided sections ... lead you on a tour of the local rice plots and hills. it is basically access for the farmers, which then have a network of (private?) tracks and paths that break the sections down further. they just loop around a big rice field, or connect to other roads which service other rice fields or logging plots: nothing of interest - not even a house - is there. Only the local farmers need use of them, but they are public. it’s the purpose of the road - the lack of shoulders and other road standards, and expected curves, turns, and other “classifications” of the road. From what you've said about the purpose, it sounds like highway=track. The conditions (paved or not, etc) would then dictate the tracktype and other tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On 7/8/2015 1:25 AM, johnw wrote: [trimmed] The issue is that these “small windy roads that go everywhere” go nowhere. the land they access is for farming the subdivided sections ... lead you on a tour of the local rice plots and hills. it is basically access for the farmers, which then have a network of (private?) tracks and paths that break the sections down further. they just loop around a big rice field, or connect to other roads which service other rice fields or logging plots: nothing of interest - not even a house - is there. Only the local farmers need use of them, but they are public. it’s the purpose of the road - the lack of shoulders and other road standards, and expected curves, turns, and other “classifications” of the road. From what you've said about the purpose, it sounds like highway=track. The conditions (paved or not, etc) would then dictate the tracktype and other tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
We have something similar in Korea. I have been using (and recommending) highway=service. I can get behind that. On Jul 8, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: Tracks can be paved - tracktype=grade1 normally is paved, or is built to equivalent quality. This is vey confusing to me. I understood it before the big hullabaloo over the track classification system change, where track Grade 1 and Residential / service / driveway begins now really confusing. Grade 3 roads (usually doubletrack with grass growing down the middle) is easy. Here, tell me what you think: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 here is an intersection where a grade3 track meats a rice service road. in the distance, you cans see the unclassified road to the east. They go nowhere except back to the unclassified road. But it is a paved and maintained public road with retaining walls and guardrails where there is a drain ditch. To me, tagging these as track muddies track really badly. they plainly are not tracks. I have ridden abandoned roads that are now tracks with asphalt, and I have driven maintained unclassified and residential roads which are compacted gravel. what would you suggest Paul? Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
On 8/07/2015 10:33 PM, André Pirard wrote: On 2015-07-08 01:54, Warin wrote : Hi Voting for this 'property' is now open. Wedding Reception Definition: A place where a social event is held after the completion of a wedding ceremony. Note that it is a 'property' rather than a key:value (what I call a sub tag). It may be applied to any key:value examples; In LST, it's called an attribute which can be an attribute of the object or of another attribute. The object is the physical thing that's on-the-so-called-ground. This gives the canonical forms: building=yes wedding_reception=yes building:wedding_reception=yes leisure=park wedding_reception=yes leisure:park:wedding_reception=yes but this is incorrect because 'leisure' is not an object. But park is an object. Unfortunately OSM mixes objects and functions in various ways that are not consistent. Nothing I can do about that with this simple proposal. In fact if objects and functions were to be organised in some consistant way, there would be considerable disruption to OSM as it now is! This comes from a non existent structure to OSM and no documentation to even suggest such a structure. LTS tries to avoid compound definitions and to define atoms like wedding and reception separately. OSM has not. But I find that events_venue weird an I prefer simpler reception instead: park:reception:wedding=yes events = birthday parties, conferences, anniversaries ... not just 'receptions'. events is a function, adding venue makes it an object. Sorry but I think this leads nowhere I would like a 'function' type name ..not an object ... for this 'property' of an object .. be it a park, building etc. --- Looks like the voting is against this. Some against as it would be too numerous. Others suggest a more numerous coverage would be better. ... there is a conflict here! And that cannot be resolved either way .. :-P ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
The social event is the wedding reception, not the location in which the event is held. You are the only person I have ever heard to refer to the location, rather than the event, as a wedding reception. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On July 7, 2015 6:55:45 PM Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Voting for this 'property' is now open. Wedding Reception Definition: A place where a social event is held after the completion of a wedding ceremony. Note that it is a 'property' rather than a key:value (what I call a sub tag). It may be applied to any key:value examples; building=yes wedding_reception=yes leisure=park wedding_reception=yes And so on. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wedding_reception ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
sent from a phone Am 08.07.2015 um 15:58 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: But park is an object. Unfortunately OSM mixes objects and functions in various ways that are not consistent. not sure why park should be an object and not a function. How can you distinguish objects from functions? cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Then why did they keep track+level1+paved at all? It's like calling it a motorway level 9. Its shoehorned into somewhere it doesn't belong. These roads may have a similar purpose - local access - but the grade of the road is completely out of the category I would ever call a track. There are so many implied things with road classifications - i know they can all be described by other tags (surface, width, max speed) but if i say the word freeway parkway alley lane track - all of them bring different things to your mind. Categorizing them as a track - and rendering them as a track - seems to be in error, even if track grade1 describes the surface well, it does not capture the maintenance and expected conditions of the road correctly IMO. This is especially true with a valley full of actual tracks - and one of these little roads through/around. It is not the same as all the tracks in the area. I would suggest a new value of service=* to further define these roads. Just as Alley isn't a track nor a residential road - these are neither as well. Javbw On Jul 8, 2015, at 8:04 PM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 To me this (along with the description) is highway=track tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for good measure. The difference between track and service is not about the quality of the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture, service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary tags even more usefull. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
I have seen some people insist that highway=track only be used if the landuse Is farmland, but not if the land is covered by bushes or trees because no cultivation is taking place. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On July 8, 2015 6:06:21 AM moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 To me this (along with the description) is highway=track tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for good measure. The difference between track and service is not about the quality of the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture, service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary tags even more usefull. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
2015-07-08 1:54 GMT+02:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: Voting for this 'property' is now open. Wedding Reception Definition: A place where a social event is held after the completion of a wedding ceremony. Note that it is a 'property' rather than a key:value (what I call a sub tag). It may be applied to any key:value examples; building=yes wedding_reception=yes leisure=park wedding_reception=yes Are wedding receptions special with regard to other private celebrations like birthdays, baptisms, anniversaries, presentations? What is the criterion for wedding_reception=yes (i.e. is it sufficient that there once was a wedding reception, or do they have to occur frequently?). In general I believe something more generic like event_space (or maybe a little more specific) would be better, because wedding reception places (at least the ones I am aware of) typically also can be used for other kind of celebrations. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
sent from a phone Am 09.07.2015 um 00:54 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: A Park is an object.. it has a physical existence, it can be used in various ways, for leisure and/or sport. isn't it the function as a park, that lets you do sports or leisure activities? When the same physical stuff (lawn, trees, lake etc) was in a garden you might not be able to use it this way Leisure is not an object but an action/function. in osm it is a key that describes objects, like swimming pools for instance, or football pitches. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
On 9/07/2015 1:13 AM, John Eldredge wrote: The social event is the wedding reception, not the location in which the event is held. You are the only person I have ever heard to refer to the location, rather than the event, as a wedding reception. Good point. On a map (such as OSM) locations are identified.. so for a wedding reception... A place (location) where a wedding reception can be held? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
On 9/07/2015 1:57 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone Am 08.07.2015 um 15:58 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: But park is an object. Unfortunately OSM mixes objects and functions in various ways that are not consistent. not sure why park should be an object and not a function. How can you distinguish objects from functions? A Park is an object.. it has a physical existence, it can be used in various ways, for leisure and/or sport. Leisure is not an object but an action/function. Sport is not an object but an action/function. Playing is not an object but an action/function. Playing cards .. the cards are objects .. but the act of playing is a function. Does that help? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2015, at 8:03 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: very rough construction Most of these are in very good condition, comparable to the residential or unclassified roads. They are well made and well maintained, besides the summer overgrowth that grows too fast to cut back in some places (this even affects secondary and primary roads in rural areas). The issue is the narrow nature, destination access, and uselessness in routing - which is why I compared them to Alleys. If a Navi told me to turn down an alley or a rural farm access road because it shaved 30 seconds off the theoretical time but was a pain in the ass to navigate, id be cursing the navi either way. And if i was biking from village to village, knowing which were actual tracks and which were these nice paved roads would be very useful - i could choose to cut my way across a region with many many little roads rather than get killed on a primary with no sidewalks and large trucks zooming by. In summary - it costs us nothing to treat these as a service road - and it gets us more detail at high zooms and more accurately reflects the road system as it exists - where the tracks are and aren't, and they disappear at lower zoom levels - as they should. Putting them in track or unclassified similarly seems to make the data and the map worse. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2015, at 6:03 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: I have seen some people insist that highway=track only be used if the landuse Is farmland, but not if the land is covered by bushes or trees because no cultivation is taking place. That is weird as hell. These roads go everywhere - through little patches of cedar forests and bamboo stands to reach the next field, in (very tiny) tunnels and on bridges under/over new train lines and motorways built to preserve farmers local access to fields when the new line cut through everything. I would say 20% of all motorway bridges and 90% of tunnels under the motorways in rural areas are for these 1 lane famers access your lands roads. Its just that with the topography of Japan, they've crammed fields into every conceivable little place. The example I linked to is the most straight forward. This is besides the tunnels and bridges a local person would use to move around the town, let alone for primary/trunk roads These then *lead to* the tracks that access individual fields /orchards / plantings. I think service=rural would be a good choice. Small, narrow, usually paved roads that provide local access to fields, stands, and otherwise (mostly) uninhabited groups of lands. Used by local landowners to access the tracks or paths that access the sub-divisions of a field, or lead to other service=rural roads. Javbw -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On July 8, 2015 6:06:21 AM moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 To me this (along with the description) is highway=track tracktype=grade1. You can add surface, lanes, maxspeed, width, etc for good measure. The difference between track and service is not about the quality of the road, but about its intended purpose. Track for agrigulture, service for built up areas (very simplified). It's the same for all highway=* values : the purpose and official classification are more important criterias than the road quality. Which makes the secondary tags even more usefull. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Wedding Reception
On 9/07/2015 9:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone Am 09.07.2015 um 00:54 schrieb Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: A Park is an object.. it has a physical existence, it can be used in various ways, for leisure and/or sport. isn't it the function as a park, You now talk of what it could be used for i.e. the function of an object. that lets you do sports or leisure activities? When the same physical stuff (lawn, trees, lake etc) was in a garden you might not be able to use it this way A park too maybe configured not to allow sports or leisure activities. Leisure is not an object but an action/function. in osm it is a key that describes objects, like swimming pools for instance, or football pitches. It describes the function of those objects .. leisure is not an object itself. Oxford Dictionary definition leisure =Use of free time for enjoymenthttp://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/enjoyment#enjoyment__2 OSM definition leisure = places people go in their spare time... So the OSM definition takes a function and makes it an object... but to an English speaker leisure is not an object. Hence the confusion. OSM redefines things .. an apple becomes an orange. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
I looked at that street view. To me, the way ahead (slightly to the left) is highway=track. The roads to the left, right and behind are highway=service. A On 8 July 2015 at 19:27, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: We have something similar in Korea. I have been using (and recommending) highway=service. I can get behind that. On Jul 8, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: Tracks can be paved - tracktype=grade1 normally is paved, or is built to equivalent quality. This is vey confusing to me. I understood it before the big hullabaloo over the track classification system change, where track Grade 1 and Residential / service / driveway begins now really confusing. Grade 3 roads (usually doubletrack with grass growing down the middle) is easy. Here, tell me what you think: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.431238,139.246753,3a,78y,233.04h,65.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqk2OIIDRfkCjb8uqWNbkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 here is an intersection where a grade3 track meats a rice service road. in the distance, you cans see the unclassified road to the east. They go nowhere except back to the unclassified road. But it is a paved and maintained public road with retaining walls and guardrails where there is a drain ditch. To me, tagging these as track muddies track really badly. they plainly are not tracks. I have ridden abandoned roads that are now tracks with asphalt, and I have driven maintained unclassified and residential roads which are compacted gravel. what would you suggest Paul? Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
Sent from my iPhone On Jul 9, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: highway=track Yes, it is where a grade 3(?) track meets the service roads. ^_^ Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Rural Alley?
On 9/07/2015 7:03 AM, John Willis wrote: Then why did they keep track+level1+paved at all? It's like calling it a motorway level 9. Its shoehorned into somewhere it doesn't belong. These roads may have a similar purpose - local access - but the grade of the road is completely out of the category I would ever call a track. There are so many implied things with road classifications - i know they can all be described by other tags (surface, width, max speed) but if i say the word freeway parkway alley lane track - all of them bring different things to your mind. For me A motorway has a standard of construction (width of lanes, verge width) that clearly distinguish it from say a residential street. A track has a very rough construction/design for a simply purpose. They may be in park lands, forestry areas. They usually provide maintenance access. An alley is always in a hi population area (CBD, residential areas for example). And they always abut small properties usually to provide access to those properties. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
