subject:"\[Tagging\] Central European insight needed\: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ..."

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> On 2. Jul 2020, at 01:18, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> How would you tag your example?  It doesn't really seem a good fit for
> any tag we have.

I don’t know the specific place, but typically I would tag
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=kebap

It also says “pizza” but from looking at the place I would say it is not a 
place you would like to find when looking for pizza, that’s why I would omit it 
probably ;-) I know may seem inconsistent. For good pizza places you should 
look out for oven=wood_fired anyway. Generally the distinction is “cut pizza” 
(al taglio), “round pizza” (pizze tonde) and places like this. ;-)

I am not adding takeaway and seating tags until now, but I might start doing 
it. 

IMHO it’s not an issue that there is seating, I expected that these places have 
seating, until you claimed they did not ;-)

We must not require a fast_food to have seating or not IMHO, although it may be 
good to add this as additional information, but if the place had a few more 
seats, or no seats at all, the basic category would remain the same for me 
(primarily interested in the kind of food they sell).

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 1:18 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
> I can't let Britain down in the bizarre food vendors contest. A butcher near
> me sells various types of raw meat (obviously).  There are also racks
> outside on the pavement: a rack of fruit and a rack of vegetables.  I was
> informed a few years ago by an alcoholic that the butcher also sold wine
> (I never went in to check).  During tourist season, also outside is a chicken
> rotisserie.  So he sells fast food.  How do we tag a fast food, alcoholic,
> grocering butcher?
>
> How would you tag your example?  It doesn't really seem a good fit for
> any tag we have.
>

Oh yeah, that's common around here as well! Some butchers sell all
kinds of interesting ready to eat things, like salami sandwiches,
grilled chicken, fried sausages (kolbász), fatback (szalonna), ham
hock (csülök), pork rind (tepertő), breaded cheese, breaded fried meat
slices, usually all offered with pickles (kovászos uborka, vegyes
vágott) and bread, but some may also cook chips.

Actually this is an instance where I think I would accept adding both
shop=butcher and amenity=fast_food to the same node, because both
functions can stand on their own: I can purchase both raw meat and
ready to eat simple fast food.

I'm a bit puzzled about mixing in the greengrocer and drink shop
aspect, though (cuisine=* and drink=*?). There.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Funny that you mention. I've just read the Hungarian interpretation of
a legal advisor regarding what counts as seating. They were
differentiating between the sit down amenity kind and the
takeaway-only shop kind of cukrászda from a tax perspective.

According to them, in order for a _service_ to be achieved, the
customer needs to be provided with:
* tables and seating that is being periodically cleaned and reset,
* napkins,
* cutlery,
* a waste basket,
* access to a toilet.

They explicitly state that:
* all else being equal, food court type of seating and using the mall
toilets is acceptable,
* self-service is acceptable,
* boards attached to the walls or eating at the counter are not acceptable.

Source:
https://adozona.hu/2017_es_valtozasok/Fel_van_adva_az_afalecke_adokulcs_etelre_it_WUS0R3

How we usually paraphrase this is that an amenity is a place where
people would _want_ to sit down to eat and/or wouldn't be ashamed to
invite others as well.

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 12:59 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 2. Jul 2020, at 00:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> I cannot deny the possibility, but I have never seen a takeaway
> kebab shop with seats for queuing customers.
>
>
>
> typical configuration in such places around here is a board (“table”) 
> attached to the wall and bar stools. You can use it while waiting but also to 
> eat if you want.
>
> example pic with limited outdoor and indoor seating, typical situation:
>
> https://www.zomato.com/it/roma/istanbul-kebab-pizza-flaminio-roma/photos
>
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 23:59, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> On 2. Jul 2020, at 00:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> I cannot deny the possibility, but I have never seen a takeaway
> kebab shop with seats for queuing customers.
>
>
> typical configuration in such places around here is a board (“table”)
> attached to the wall and bar stools. You can use it while waiting but also
> to eat if you want.
>
> example pic with limited outdoor and indoor seating, typical situation:
>

I've never seen anything like that with a takeaway.  Cafes, yes.  Seats
outside used when it's sunny, seats inside used when it's raining.  Not
any takeway that I recall.

Damn you foreigners with your strange foreign ways!  Why do you insist
on making everything so complicated?  It's times like this I start to take
seriously bkil's joking suggestion of lumping all food vendors under one
tag.
Real life is too blurry for us to categorize.

I can't let Britain down in the bizarre food vendors contest. A butcher near
me sells various types of raw meat (obviously).  There are also racks
outside on the pavement: a rack of fruit and a rack of vegetables.  I was
informed a few years ago by an alcoholic that the butcher also sold wine
(I never went in to check).  During tourist season, also outside is a
chicken
rotisserie.  So he sells fast food.  How do we tag a fast food, alcoholic,
grocering butcher?

How would you tag your example?  It doesn't really seem a good fit for
any tag we have.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...



sent from a phone

>> On 2. Jul 2020, at 00:44, Paul Allen  wrote:
> I cannot deny the possibility, but I have never seen a takeaway
> kebab shop with seats for queuing customers. 


typical configuration in such places around here is a board (“table”) attached 
to the wall and bar stools. You can use it while waiting but also to eat if you 
want. 

example pic with limited outdoor and indoor seating, typical situation:

https://www.zomato.com/it/roma/istanbul-kebab-pizza-flaminio-roma/photos


Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 23:21, bkil  wrote:

> Again, I still don't have enough information about your "takeaway"
> places, but if you are not satisfied with takeaway=only + capacity=0,
>

I'm not that bothered about fixing it.  I was putting it forward as an
example of the way we tag restaurants/cafes/coffee shops/fast
food not being a good fit to reality.  However, it appears that only
I care about whether or not I can sit down.

could it be also solved via subtagging?
>

It could perhaps be dealt with that way.  Another time.  Try to fix
everything at once and it all falls apart.

I can see someone started experimented with
> amenity=restaurant + restaurant=diner
>

Yikes!  To me that's a contradiction in terms.  Diners are for
blue-collar workers, restaurants for white-collar workers.  You
wouldn't know what colour collar to wear in a restaurant=diner.

That was a gross simplification with some humour thrown in.
The point is that restaurants and diners are different categories
of places to eat.  Ripped jeans and cow plop on your boots
might be normal in a diner but not in many restaurants.

>
> And: amenity=fast_food + fast_food=van/truck/street_kitchen
>

I just love me some Kentucky Fried Kitchen.  But I'm also partial
to vans in crispy batter.

Those don't look like good ideas, to me.

It even has a wiki page, although it also fell victim to Mr.
> Jeisenbe's art of deleting information:
>

He's a doctor.  He likes doing wikidectomies.

Would fast_food=diner or fast_food=takeaway cover your use cases (not
> sure about the difference)?
>

Given the number of people who say a diner isn't fast food (I tend to
agree that it usually isn't) then nope.  But I'm not that worried about
trying to fix it at this time, just hoping to avoid painting ourselves into
corners.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

> On 2. Jul 2020, at 00:21, bkil  wrote:
> 
> I can see someone started experimented with
> amenity=restaurant + restaurant=diner
> 
> And:
> amenity=fast_food + fast_food=van/truck/street_kitchen

to keep this straight, these are long tail values, 77% of all fast_food values 
are „cafeteria“, 12,5% are “yes”, 2% are “shawarma” and 1%pizza. street_kitchen 
is 0,7% and van 0,5%. 

restaurant has only 0,14% diner as value, most are no, yes, fast_food and even 
the great restaurant=restaurant tag has 0,56% usage. I do not want to say that 
restaurant=diner or fast_food=street_kitchen couldn’t be great tags, but they 
are basically outliers at the moment: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant#values

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 23:11, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

takeaway oriented kebab place may still have one or two seats
> (either for waiting customers or maybe for a legal reasons)
> that are extremely rarely used
>

I cannot deny the possibility, but I have never seen a takeaway
kebab shop with seats for queuing customers.  I've seen seats
for takeaway customers at a couple of Chinese restaurants
that do takeaways, but their takeaway food was not fast.
I wouldn't consider seats for queuing customers as
turning a takeaway into a cafe - no tables, no tableware,
and they're kick you out if you tried to eat your meal in
those seats.

What about seating outside where no cover against rain is provided?
>

That's outdoor seating.  Which may be unconnected with the
takeaway.  Are you going to count a takeaway near a bus station
because there are some benches for the use of passengers?

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Again, I still don't have enough information about your "takeaway"
places, but if you are not satisfied with takeaway=only + capacity=0,
could it be also solved via subtagging?

I can see someone started experimented with
amenity=restaurant + restaurant=diner

And:
amenity=fast_food + fast_food=van/truck/street_kitchen

It even has a wiki page, although it also fell victim to Mr.
Jeisenbe's art of deleting information:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:fast_food=1929947

Would fast_food=diner or fast_food=takeaway cover your use cases (not
sure about the difference)?

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:31 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 22:10, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yeah, but we're being told that British takeaways are very different
>> from other casual food places that have seating
>
>
> A takeaway doesn't have seating.
>
>> and the provision of seating is of key interest to Paul.
>
>
> Yep.  If you're on foot (I usually am) and you live in a country that is
> often cold and it frequently rains (I do) then seating is a key factor
> in deciding where to go for food.
>>
>>
>> So, are they different enough to have a new root tag? Or do we accept
>> ambiguity of cafe/fast_food root tags and specify with subtags?
>
>
> Or do we smoosh them all up into one aggregate tag and not bother
> with distinctions?  That would work.  It would make it far easier to
> tag things.  No agonizing decisions about whether it's one thing
> or
>>
>>
>> In my reading, that's what the entire discussion has been about.
>
>
> I think it also had a little to do with exploring cultural differences both
> in how different cultures categorize things, and how those cultures
> use tags for those categories, and where the mismatches are, and
> how we fix things.
>
> BTW, I happily admit to being the only member of my own culture.
> It's distantly related to British culture, but with some quirks. :)
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-07-01 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging




Jul 1, 2020, 23:30 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 22:10, Jarek Piórkowski <> ja...@piorkowski.ca> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Yeah, but we're being told that British takeaways are very different
>>  from other casual food places that have seating
>>
>
> A takeaway doesn't have seating. 
>
takeaway oriented kebab place may still have one or two seats 
(either for waiting customers or maybe for a legal reasons)
that are extremely rarely used

>
>
>> and the provision of seating is of key interest to Paul.
>>
>
> Yep.  If you're on foot (I usually am) and you live in a country that is
> often cold and it frequently rains (I do) then seating is a key factor
> in deciding where to go for food.
>
What about seating outside where no cover against rain is provided?
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 22:10, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

>
> Yeah, but we're being told that British takeaways are very different
> from other casual food places that have seating

A takeaway doesn't have seating.

and the provision of seating is of key interest to Paul.
>

Yep.  If you're on foot (I usually am) and you live in a country that is
often cold and it frequently rains (I do) then seating is a key factor
in deciding where to go for food.

>
> So, are they different enough to have a new root tag? Or do we accept
> ambiguity of cafe/fast_food root tags and specify with subtags?
>

Or do we smoosh them all up into one aggregate tag and not bother
with distinctions?  That would work.  It would make it far easier to
tag things.  No agonizing decisions about whether it's one thing
or

>
> In my reading, that's what the entire discussion has been about.
>

I think it also had a little to do with exploring cultural differences both
in how different cultures categorize things, and how those cultures
use tags for those categories, and where the mismatches are, and
how we fix things.

BTW, I happily admit to being the only member of my own culture.
It's distantly related to British culture, but with some quirks. :)

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 21:54, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 1. Jul 2020, at 02:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > Few people would want to stand
> > in a queue while raw food is cooked for them.
>
> You have been writing a lot about cooking raw food,

When talking of cafes, yes.  Especially the ones that do an all-day
breakfast
fry-up.  It depends on their size, time of day, etc, but smaller ones can't
risk pre-preparing a lot of food.

> but regular restaurants also use a lot of ingredients that have been
> precooked, typically by themselves , maybe not yet finished but to a point
> where they can be finished quicker.

Very true.  Common to bad Indian restaurants - pre-cooked meats, pre-cooked
sauces, keep them all hot and throw them together to give tandoori lamb or
tandoori chicken or lamb madras or...  Not much like the real cuisine.

> AFAIK also the British cuisine has lots of stews and similar food that has
> not to be cooked freshly to the minute and that needs significant cooking
> time.

Not many posh restaurants have stew on the menu, as I recall.

It’s not the waiting time that’s the main distinction between a fast food
> and a restaurant, it’s also the time you give yourself for eating and the
> ambience. For example a restaurant without tablecloth is not thinkable (at
> least in many countries) while a fast food hardly ever has it.
>

I mentioned ambience wrt restaurants many posts ago.  But there is also,
usually, a longer waiting time in restaurants than cafes.  And it's
entirely possible
that in some restaurants the waiting time is artificially stretched (some
computer
programs and on-line equivalents do the same thing because many people
wouldn't
trust them if they returned the result very quickly).

>
> Think about sushi, it is generally not considered fast food, but it can be
> prepared relative quickly because no cooking is involved.
>

So food that is not "fast food" can be fast.  Does that mean that some fast
food
can be slow?  And McDonalds are fast food restaurants.  And Little Chef
transport
cafes are roadside restaurants.

It's getting very blurry again.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-07-01 Thread Jarek Piórkowski

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 16:55, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> On 1. Jul 2020, at 02:51, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>> Do we want to introduce new tags for gastronomical service places? If
>> yes, so far takeaway has one of the clearer definitions I've seen, so
>> we could start there.
>
> we already have the quite established tag takeaway=yes/no/only
> no need to reinvent the wheel: 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/takeaway#values

Yeah, but we're being told that British takeaways are very different
from other casual food places that have seating and the provision of
seating is of key interest to Paul.

So, are they different enough to have a new root tag? Or do we accept
ambiguity of cafe/fast_food root tags and specify with subtags?

In my reading, that's what the entire discussion has been about.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...



sent from a phone

> On 1. Jul 2020, at 13:34, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
>> Eh, as opposed to retagging coffee shops or McDonald's being feasible?
> 
> Indeed.  That was my point.  There's a lot that doesn't work well, but it's
> too late to fix it with retagging. 


To give some numbers, wrt McD 99,53% of them are tagged as amenity=fast_food 
99% also have a cuisine=burger tag (smells like an automatic edit)
92,6% are also takeaway=yes (the missing 7% do not have a takeaway tag)
All numbers referring to brand McD, there will be more with only a name tag but 
they were harder to check ;-)
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/brand=McDonald's#combinations

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...



sent from a phone

> On 1. Jul 2020, at 02:51, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
> 
> Do we want to introduce new tags for gastronomical service places? If
> yes, so far takeaway has one of the clearer definitions I've seen, so
> we could start there.


we already have the quite established tag takeaway=yes/no/only
no need to reinvent the wheel: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/takeaway#values

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

> On 1. Jul 2020, at 02:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Few people would want to stand
> in a queue while raw food is cooked for them.

You have been writing a lot about cooking raw food, but regular restaurants 
also use a lot of ingredients that have been precooked, typically by themselves 
, maybe not yet finished but to a point where they can be finished quicker. 
Many dishes require a lot of preparation and cooking and customers would not be 
willing to wait 2 or 3 hours and more for their meal. It depends on the kind of 
meal of course. Imagine a restaurant starting to clean the vegetables for the 
broth that’s needed for cooking the meat ;-) AFAIK also the British cuisine has 
lots of stews and similar food that has not to be cooked freshly to the minute 
and that needs significant cooking time. Most soups require long cooking. 

It’s not the waiting time that’s the main distinction between a fast food and a 
restaurant, it’s also the time you give yourself for eating and the ambience. 
For example a restaurant without tablecloth is not thinkable (at least in many 
countries) while a fast food hardly ever has it.

Think about sushi, it is generally not considered fast food, but it can be 
prepared relative quickly because no cooking is involved.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

>> > Shop=pastry?
>> >
>>
>> Unfortunately we can't use that tag, as the menu of a cukrászda far
>> exceeds the definition of what the word "pastry" implies. They usually
>> offer many items from the following categories:
>> * cakes
>> * cookies
>> * custards
>> * doughnuts
>> * frozen desserts
>> * puddings
>> * scones
>> * sugar confections
>> * sweet pastries
>> * sweet pies
>
>
> What you list is a mix of (to use the technical terms) baker's confectionery
> and sugar confectionery.
>

Almost right, but see the rational definition from Wikipedia:

> Bakers' confectionery includes sweet baked goods, especially those that are 
> served for the dessert course.
> Bakers' confections are sweet foods that feature flour as a main ingredient 
> and are baked.

The above list and the menu of a cukrászda may also include desserts which:
* need cooking, but not baking,
* need no cooking or baking at all,
* do not have flour as the main ingredient,
* some that bakers aren't allowed to make in Hungary (only a cukrász
or a pastry cook).

I based these top level dessert/sweet categories on these pages:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_desserts
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pastries
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastry
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confectionery

> What a shame we don't have a word that
> combines both types of item.
>
> Actually, we not only have such a word, we have the corresponding tag:
> shop=confectionery.  However, the wiki contradicts itself.  The first 
> paragraph
> includes cakes and croissants as items it sells.  The second paragraph says
> that shops selling cakes should be shop=pastry.
>
> Also, I don't know about the UK in general, but I can only remember
> seeing "confectionery" applied to sweet shops that want to appear
> up-market.  Wiktionary agrees with me.  Wikipedia doesn't.
>

Unfortunately, my position as a foreigner is pretty weak when trying
to argue about the meaning of English words with a native speaker, but
let me share the insight I gained after analyzing a few articles.

The word "confectionery" can mean both
* sugar confections alone,
* and a broad category that encompasses both sugar confections and
baker's confections.

This confusion causes the kind of documentation inconsistency that you
observe. Hence we should avoid words with such confusing multiple
meanings in OpenStreetMap if possible. Hence I propose that we
deprecate shop=confectionery and introduce shop=sugar_confections
instead.

A word even worse than this is "pastry", that could refer to:
* a kind of dough,
* vaguely "small tarts and other sweet baked products",
* a mostly specific category of desserts outlined in the above
taxonomy related to the second point,
* sometimes incorrectly to various desserts in general.

Though the last one doesn't seem to be an accepted meaning, this error
occurs a lot on Wikipedia (possibly propagated by non-native
speakers).

After some more effort, I could narrow down the definition to
something manageable by cross checking with my taxonomy outlined
above, but the blur between its meanings also warrants avoidance in
OpenStreetMap.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 13:54, bkil  wrote:

>
> > It would need guidance in the wiki as to where the line is between a
> > coffeehouse (or whatever we call it) and a cafe that isn't a coffeehouse.
>
> Yes, that should be a good idea before someone submits a grand
> unification proposal.
>

We need rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

> Shop=pastry?
> >
>
> Unfortunately we can't use that tag, as the menu of a cukrászda far
> exceeds the definition of what the word "pastry" implies. They usually
> offer many items from the following categories:
> * cakes
> * cookies
> * custards
> * doughnuts
> * frozen desserts
> * puddings
> * scones
> * sugar confections
> * sweet pastries
> * sweet pies
>

What you list is a mix of (to use the technical terms) baker's confectionery
and sugar confectionery.  What a shame we don't have a word that
combines both types of item.

Actually, we not only have such a word, we have the corresponding tag:
shop=confectionery.  However, the wiki contradicts itself.  The first
paragraph
includes cakes and croissants as items it sells.  The second paragraph says
that shops selling cakes should be shop=pastry.

Also, I don't know about the UK in general, but I can only remember
seeing "confectionery" applied to sweet shops that want to appear
up-market.  Wiktionary agrees with me.  Wikipedia doesn't.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

> The only possible downside I see is that it requires more carto code if you
> want different icons.  But that would be necessary however we did this.
>

Possibly. But if part of the world already uses amenity=café for
places that do not primarily focus on coffee, this icon revision based
on subtypes is unavoidable and a beneficial update.

>  Of course, the unambiguous,
> uncontaminated name would be cukrászda, but I doubt that would
> go down well with those who don't speak Magyar.

Yes, tagging with "cukrászda" would be the best. ;-) Although, people
would have a hard time typing the accent, and surely it's not a
Hungarian invention. I imagine it could have been inspired by the
French patisserie and brought in from Germany to the Austro-Hungarian
Monarchy.

>  Maybe > cafe=beverages?  I'm not entirely happy with that as it implies
> nothing but beverages.
>

Just to recap, a cukrászda is kind of an artisan fancy dessert bakery,
cakery & confectionery that operates as a café where they replace
"coffee" with "desserts" in people's minds.

They may offer liquid desserts as well, but this is usually not a
defining characteristic.

> It would need guidance in the wiki as to where the line is between a
> coffeehouse (or whatever we call it) and a cafe that isn't a coffeehouse.
>

Yes, that should be a good idea before someone submits a grand
unification proposal.

> Do sandwiches as well as cakes make it a diner?  How about if there
> are hot sausage rolls, too?  What is the classification of the places
> at smaller railway stations that have this sort of menu but aren't
> places people go to socialize?
>

If the primary audience is hungry travelers, then it would probably be
a diner (or a fast food restaurant, not sure about the difference in
the UK). Otherwise if they just want to have something to go with the
tea or coffee, it's not a diner.

It's pretty subjective and culture dependent what people usually mean
by "go with" in this context, but local mappers can almost always
determine that with high accuracy.

For example, some cultures would call for cookies with their tea,
while others do pretzels or peanuts, still others may be fine with
thin sausage stick snacks, a pickled egg or a mini sandwich. Surely
you can get "filled" with any kind of food item if you consume a vast
amount of it, but the intention here is that the meal part should not
be that "filling" to the point of being an obstacle to further drink
consumption .

>> Or even this one:
>> amenity=cafe + cafe=teehouse
> For golfers? :)
>

Hah, a mind spoiled by the command line. Hm, should have been
amenity=cafe + cafe=teahouse...

>> For the kind of cukrászda where you can not sit in, we could also add
>> takeaway=only/capacity=0 to this or maybe introduce shop=*** instead.
>
>
> Shop=pastry?
>

Unfortunately we can't use that tag, as the menu of a cukrászda far
exceeds the definition of what the word "pastry" implies. They usually
offer many items from the following categories:
* cakes
* cookies
* custards
* doughnuts
* frozen desserts
* puddings
* scones
* sugar confections
* sweet pastries
* sweet pies

> I'm kind of puzzled as to how the socialization aspect of a cukrászda works 
> when
> there are no seats. :)
>

Indeed, the socialization aspect is not important for shops. However,
what is still important is:
* they focus on various desserts and usually appeal based on the looks,
* have a refrigerated translucent counter,
* their products are hand made,
* the products are usually not prepackaged,
* the products are perishable, usually without added extra
preservatives in most items,
* they are usually a family owned small producer, not a retailer,
* they hold appropriate government "cukrász"/confectioner/whatever
licenses as per country regulations and/or advertise their cooking
certificates and awards on the wall,
* they usually offer on demand customization, made to order,
* they usually offer a choice of bottled drinks to go with your dessert.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:51, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 20:28, Paul Allen  wrote:
> > On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Jarek Piórkowski 
> wrote:
> >> Maybe tag them amenity=takeaway
> >
> > Good idea.  Except that value is not officially agreed and isn't
> > rendered.  Are you suggesting somebody propose it?
>
> It doesn't look like being officially agreed has helped us much with cafe,

Ouch!

> Do we want to introduce new tags for gastronomical service places? If
> yes, so far takeaway has one of the clearer definitions I've seen, so
> we could start there.
>

Or maybe we could subtag, as bkil recently suggested.  That solves
a lot of problems.

> In any case, given the number of places already
> > mapped, retagging of that sort isn't feasible.
>
> Eh, as opposed to retagging coffee shops or McDonald's being feasible?
>

Indeed.  That was my point.  There's a lot that doesn't work well, but it's
too late to fix it with retagging.  Subtagging would be a better approach as
that leaves existing POIs as being under-specified but details can
 be added.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 03:10, bkil  wrote:

> So just a quick idea, what do you think if we subtyped amenity=café?
>

On first thought, sounds good.  I reserve the right to change my mind later
(it's possible some problem will occur to me), but right now I like it.  It
means
you can map something that you see in passing without having to go inside
and inspect the menu in detail, but it can be refined later.  It means that
no
existing amenity=cafe is wrong, just not completely specified, which is a
big plius.

The only possible downside I see is that it requires more carto code if you
want different icons.  But that would be necessary however we did this.

>
> What non-UK people refer to as a café:
> amenity=cafe + cafe=coffeehouse
>

Works for places that call themselves coffee houses.  It's not great for
those that call themselves tea shops, even though both would sell
coffee and tea.  Not so good for places focusing on other types of drink.
I'd prefer a more inclusive name but I can't think of one.  I can live with
coffeehouse if everyone else can.  Of course, the unambiguous,
uncontaminated name would be cukrászda, but I doubt that would
go down well with those who don't speak Magyar.  Maybe
cafe=beverages?  I'm not entirely happy with that as it implies
nothing but beverages.

It would need guidance in the wiki as to where the line is between a
coffeehouse (or whatever we call it) and a cafe that isn't a coffeehouse.
Do sanwdiches as well as cakes make it a diner?  How about if there
are hot sausage rolls, too?  What is the classification of the places
at smaller railway stations that have this sort of menu but aren't
places people go to socialize?

>
> Diners/greasy spoon and whatnot:
> amenity=cafe + cafe=diner
>

That's an Americanism.  It's also the case that a British cafe and an
American diner have some differences.  But there is variation in both
and the commonalities probably outweigh the differences.  I can't
think of anything better at the moment.

>
> Or even this one:
> amenity=cafe + cafe=teehouse
>

For golfers? :)

>
> For the kind of cukrászda where you can not sit in, we could also add
> takeaway=only/capacity=0 to this or maybe introduce shop=*** instead.
>

Shop=pastry?

I'm kind of puzzled as to how the socialization aspect of a cukrászda works
when
there are no seats. :)

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-30 Thread bkil

So just a quick idea, what do you think if we subtyped amenity=café?

What non-UK people refer to as a café:
amenity=cafe + cafe=coffeehouse

Diners/greasy spoon and whatnot:
amenity=cafe + cafe=diner

Or even this one:
amenity=cafe + cafe=teehouse

$SUBJECT:
amenity=cafe + cafe=cukrászda***
(***We're still working on the word to recommend, but many came up
already, like dessert, dessert_bakery, sweet_bakery, fancy_bakery,
patisserie and others)

For the kind of cukrászda where you can not sit in, we could also add
takeaway=only/capacity=0 to this or maybe introduce shop=*** instead.



On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 11:40 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 20:13, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
>>
>>
>> It's about the main function. In an imagined daily routine (similarly to 
>> Bkil), coffeehouse (and cukrászda) is the place of some social life after or 
>> between meals. One can arrange a date with his/her (girl)friend, or even a 
>> meeting with a business partner for a short talk in a posh coffeehouse in a 
>> calm ambience (soft chillout music, porcelain tableware). It's not about the 
>> food or the coffee :)
>
>
> So nobody would ever go to a cukrászda alone, just to eat the limited fare.
> And nobody would ever have a romantic meeting at a McDonalds.  Except
> that both of those happen.  Yeah, I know you said main function, but it's all
> blurred together, especially with the existing tags.  McDonalds calls itself
> a fast food restaurant yet I get mocked because it occupies my mental
> space for "cafe" and I think of "fast food" as a type of cuisine.
>
> The discussions so far make things murkier.  At one moment bkil argues
> that cukrászda sell only coffee and should be split off, and that sounds
> sensible.  Then he says they sell cakes.  And sandwiches.  Which puts
> them into that broad category in the wiki for amenity=cafe, which
> encompasses anything from coffee shops to diners (but not if the
> diners sell fast food, everyone assures me).
>
> A cukrászda sounds almost like a UK coffee shop, which can be for
> socializing/meeting but is also for people who feel a little hungry.  Except
> places that start out as coffee shops in the UK usually end up selling more
> substantial meals too.
>
> It is a horrible mess.  Our tags, especially amenity=cafe, are a poor fit to
> reality.  Retagging everything would be the only way to bring some sense to 
> it.
> But that will never happen. Maybe the best we can do is carve out something 
> for
> coffee shops that can be applied to newly-mapped POIs and accept that the rest
> is a mess.  Doing that might let this thread die down.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-30 Thread Jarek Piórkowski

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 20:28, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>> Maybe tag them amenity=takeaway
>
> Good idea.  Except that value is not officially agreed and isn't
> rendered.  Are you suggesting somebody propose it?

It doesn't look like being officially agreed has helped us much with cafe, so...

Do we want to introduce new tags for gastronomical service places? If
yes, so far takeaway has one of the clearer definitions I've seen, so
we could start there.

>> and leave amenity=fast_food for the other kinds of
>> places?
>
> So you're saying that amenity=fast_food should only be used where
> there are seats?

Nah. If it's a place that an editor would consider a takeaway, tag it
as takeaway. Otherwise tag it as something else. amenity=fast_food
could become a less-specific fallback, like highway=road.

> That goes contrary to many people's
> expectations.  And sort of implies that takeaways don't
> serve fast food.

Not anymore than using highway=primary implies it isn't a road.

> In any case, given the number of places already
> mapped, retagging of that sort isn't feasible.

Eh, as opposed to retagging coffee shops or McDonald's being feasible?

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 at 01:02, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 13:15, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > That may be the situation where you are but not where I am.  More than
> > half of the fast food outlets in my town have no seats and are takeaway
> only.
> > Many chip shops I've encountered in the UK are takeaway only.
>
> You've repeatedly referred to them as takeaways.

It's a common idiom in the UK, Australia and New Zealand.  I cannot
guarantee that it is always the case, but every takeaway I recall
has sold fast food of some kind.  Few people would want to stand
in a queue while raw food is cooked for them.  The places aren't
large enough for the size of queue that would build up at peak
times if people were prepared to wait.  Chip shops occasionally
run out of chips or something else and the 10 minute wait seems
interminable, so people often change their order or walk out.

Pretty much all takeaways sell only fast food.  Not all
fast food outlets are takeaway=only.

> Maybe tag them amenity=takeaway

Good idea.  Except that value is not officially agreed and isn't
rendered.  Are you suggesting somebody propose it?

> and leave amenity=fast_food for the other kinds of
> places?
>

So you're saying that amenity=fast_food should only be used where
there are seats?  That goes contrary to many people's
expectations.  And sort of implies that takeaways don't
serve fast food.   In any case, given the number of places already
mapped, retagging of that sort isn't feasible.

What we have isn't very good.  I don't see any feasible way of
making it much better.  Maybe split off coffee shop from
cafe (except we'll never agree on a name because people will
want to map tea houses and bubble tea places, and juice-only
places, and milk bars).

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-30 Thread Jarek Piórkowski

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 13:15, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:35, bkil  wrote:
>> Note that illustrations depict Burger King, McDonald's and a fish and
>> chip shop in England, and that the icon generally depicts a fast food
>> item like a burger. It is true that there exist such small fast_food
>> restaurants that they operate from a vehicle and they may only have
>> tables, but no seats (takeaway=only and/or capacity=0), but this is a
>> minority.
>
> That may be the situation where you are but not where I am.  More than
> half of the fast food outlets in my town have no seats and are takeaway only.
> Many chip shops I've encountered in the UK are takeaway only.

You've repeatedly referred to them as takeaways. Maybe tag them
amenity=takeaway and leave amenity=fast_food for the other kinds of
places?

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 20:13, Gábor Fekete  wrote:

>
> It's about the main function. In an imagined daily routine (similarly to
> Bkil), coffeehouse (and cukrászda) is the place of some social life after
> or between meals. One can arrange a date with his/her (girl)friend, or even
> a meeting with a business partner for a short talk in a posh coffeehouse in
> a calm ambience (soft chillout music, porcelain tableware). It's not about
> the food or the coffee :)
>

So nobody would ever go to a cukrászda alone, just to eat the limited fare.
And nobody would ever have a romantic meeting at a McDonalds.  Except
that both of those happen.  Yeah, I know you said main function, but it's
all
blurred together, especially with the existing tags.  McDonalds calls itself
a fast food restaurant yet I get mocked because it occupies my mental
space for "cafe" and I think of "fast food" as a type of cuisine.

The discussions so far make things murkier.  At one moment bkil argues
that cukrászda sell only coffee and should be split off, and that sounds
sensible.  Then he says they sell cakes.  And sandwiches.  Which puts
them into that broad category in the wiki for amenity=cafe, which
encompasses anything from coffee shops to diners (but not if the
diners sell fast food, everyone assures me).

A cukrászda sounds almost like a UK coffee shop, which can be for
socializing/meeting but is also for people who feel a little hungry.  Except
places that start out as coffee shops in the UK usually end up selling more
substantial meals too.

It is a horrible mess.  Our tags, especially amenity=cafe, are a poor fit to
reality.  Retagging everything would be the only way to bring some sense to
it.
But that will never happen. Maybe the best we can do is carve out something
for
coffee shops that can be applied to newly-mapped POIs and accept that the
rest
is a mess.  Doing that might let this thread die down.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-30 Thread Gábor Fekete

> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 18:14:44 +0100
> From: Paul Allen 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda,
>     cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria,
>     konditorei, patisserie, ...
> [...]
> > As mentioned by Feket, a coffeehouse usually also has something to "go
> > with" your coffee, tea or other beverage, like a sandwich, a snack or
> > even a piece of pie or cake they purchased (possibly from a
> > cukrászda).
>
> That's the problem.  Where do you draw the line?  Is a piece of cake food?
> How about a sandwich?  Some people's lunch consists of sandwiches and
> a piece of fruit.  Where do you draw the line between coffee house and
> diner?
>

It's about the main function. In an imagined daily routine (similarly to
Bkil), coffeehouse (and cukrászda) is the place of some social life after
or between meals. One can arrange a date with his/her (girl)friend, or even
a meeting with a business partner for a short talk in a posh coffeehouse in
a calm ambience (soft chillout music, porcelain tableware). It's not about
the food or the coffee :)

[...]
>
>

 Kind Regards,
feket
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-30 Thread ael

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 05:29:44PM +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 12:58, bkil  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
> >
> 
> 
> > almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a
> > lot of things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this
> > particular discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving
> > interpretations of established tags that didn't find other supporting
> > voices.
> >
> 
> So it appears to me, too.  My mental taxonomy of what is and is not a cafe
> clearly differs from that of other mappers in the UK.  For me the seating
> is important.  It is usually the case that a place without seating will
> normally sell fast food because people don't like standing in a queue for
> 20 minutes.  But I appear to be alone in thinking of McDonalds as a
> cafe with a particular cuisine and limited menu (and bizarre lengths of
> crispy potato instead of proper chips).

While I have not followed this discusson very closely, I thought that
Paul's view in the UK context was reasonable. Cafe' is very definitely 
not restricted to places selling coffee. The distinction between
fast-food and cafe' and even low end restaurants is a bit hazy. 
Fast-food is a fairly recent phase in British English, I think. Not
precisely defined, but mainly for franchised chains. But I think duck-
tagging applies in the UK: when I see one, I usually know what it is.

ael

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 17:55, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:

>
> From the point of a user, when I am about driving with my wife and we want
> to stop
> for a nice lunch, I search for cafes and restaurants somewhat nearby. If
> we drive 10
> Km to end up at a McDonals-like place we will be disappointed.
>

Sounds about right.  Depends on how tight money is, what sort of ambience
you want, and how hungry you are.  Then again...

I've been in situations where the only place nearby I could get a sit-down
meal was McDonalds.  I wasn't thrilled by that, but I preferred it to the
nearby Subway (food cold, no seats).  And I was in one situation where I
hadn't eaten all day, it was mid-afternoon and the only place with seats
selling food was KFC.  I'm not a fan of chicken, especially when it's
been sat under a heat lamp for far too long.

>From my perspective, the major split is between seats and no-seats.
If I'm on foot, and it's cold or raining, seats are what I'm looking for.
Only then do other factors influence my decision.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:35, bkil  wrote:

> Okay, so at least now I better see where the misunderstanding stems
> from. Let's get some facts straight. It may be true that almost all
> words in OSM are interpreted within British English, but amenity=café
> is an exception (we've decided to leave out the accent for the benefit
> of the international community).
>

It's not clear to me that amenity=cafe is an exception, going by the wiki.
What has happened is that some parts of the world interpret it differently.
Which is not a good thing.

>
> Other than the accidental clash in wording, it doesn't refer to a
> British cafe, greasy spoon or a diner

 But the wiki description matches those things.

B- without having visited one of
> those, I'd probably simply tag those as amenity=fast_food.
>

In many cafes in the UK, the food is NOT fast.  It's not pre-cooked and
going dry under a heat lamp, it is cooked from raw, on demand.

If you refer to:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcafe
>
> > amenity=cafe (café) is for a generally informal place with sit-down
> facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks. This includes
> coffee-shops and tea shops selling perhaps tea, coffee and cakes through to
> bistros selling meals with alcoholic drinks."
>

A very broad definition.  I now agree with you that it is too broad. Far too
broad.

>
> This highlights the fact that we've introduced this kind of amenity to
> tag a café or coffee-shop as per the text and Wikipedia.
>
> The pictures all show coffeehouses.
>
> The proposed icon that shows the most prominent feature of this
> amenity depicts a coffee mug.
>
> You can verify that this was the original intention and original icon
> of the creators as well:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dcafe#Voting

You can also see the discussions there.  Some people happy to have a
way of tagging places that sold coffee and cake.  Some people happy to
have a way of describing greasy spoons.  All happy that the same tag
referred to both.

If you think the community should reserve the tag amenity=cafe for
> diners and British cafe, what tag do you think the rest of the world
> should be using for their hundreds of thousands of coffeehouses?
>

Until you came along, amenity=cafe served both purposes.  You've
convinced me that it's too broad a meaning.

>
> As mentioned by Feket, a coffeehouse usually also has something to "go
> with" your coffee, tea or other beverage, like a sandwich, a snack or
> even a piece of pie or cake they purchased (possibly from a
> cukrászda).

That's the problem.  Where do you draw the line?  Is a piece of cake food?
How about a sandwich?  Some people's lunch consists of sandwiches and
a piece of fruit.  Where do you draw the line between coffee house and
diner?

> Most small cafés around here usually lack a kitchen in
> which they could cook hot meals. I think offering something quick and
> simple like an omelette mentioned on the talk page could also be
> plausible, but people definitely aren't coming here for the food.
>

If nobody goes there for the food, why do they sell food?

I admit that 20 or 30 years ago, in Scotland, on Sundays pubs could only
sell drinks to "bona fide travellers" and only with food.  So they kept an
array of stale food on a shelf that was sold on Sundays, never consumed,
and returned to the shelf for the next Sunday.  They sold food, but nobody
went there for the food.  I doubt that situation applies to your cafes.

This also brings us back to amenity=fast_food:
>
> > A fast food restaurant, also known as a quick service restaurant (QSR)
> within the industry,

British English. and maybe just MY British English, but they're not
restaurants.  To marketroids they may be, but to me they're not.

> is a specific type of restaurant that serves fast food cuisine and has
> minimal table service. The food served in fast food restaurants is
> typically part of a "meat-sweet diet", offered from a limited menu, cooked
> in bulk in advance and kept hot, finished and packaged to order, and
> usually available for take away, though seating may be provided. Fast food
> restaurants are typically part of a restaurant chain or franchise operation
> that provides standardized ingredients and/or partially prepared foods and
> supplies to each restaurant through controlled supply channels. The term
> "fast food" was recognized in a dictionary by Merriam–Webster in 1951.[1]
>

So places selling that type of meal but have no seating are not fast food?
Or
do they count because having zero tables counts as "minimal table service"?

Note that illustrations depict Burger King, McDonald's and a fish and
> chip shop in England, and that the icon generally depicts a fast food
> item like a burger. It is true that there exist such small fast_food
> restaurants that they operate from a vehicle and they may only have
> tables, but no seats (takeaway=only and/or capacity=0), but this is a
> minority.

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-30 Thread Niels Elgaard Larsen

Paul Allen:
> On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 12:58, bkil http://bkil.hu>+a...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
> 
>  
> 
> almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a 
> lot of
> things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this particular 
> discussion
> it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving interpretations of 
> established
> tags that didn't find other supporting voices.
> 
> 
> So it appears to me, too.  My mental taxonomy of what is and is not a cafe
> clearly differs from that of other mappers in the UK. 

Well, here is a gourmet restaurant serving burgers:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5416925514
https://andershusa.com/the-noma-burger-rene-redzepi-reopens-with-take-away-and-wine-bar-copenhagen-denmark/


From the point of a user, when I am about driving with my wife and we want to 
stop
for a nice lunch, I search for cafes and restaurants somewhat nearby. If we 
drive 10
Km to end up at a McDonals-like place we will be disappointed.

If it is a gastropub selling burgers and french fries with a glass of wine or 
beer we
will be happy.


> For me the seating
> is important.  It is usually the case that a place without seating will
> normally sell fast food because people don't like standing in a queue for
> 20 minutes.  But I appear to be alone in thinking of McDonalds as a
> cafe with a particular cuisine and limited menu (and bizarre lengths of
> crispy potato instead of proper chips).
> 
> Approach it from the other direction.  Cafes in the US (called Diners there)
> sell burgers, amongst other things.  A diner might have a menu very
> similar to McDonalds.  Is that now a fast food joint rather than a cafe?
> If so, what if it limits the menu in summer and has a more expanded one
> in winter?
> 
> Things blur a lot in the real world and drawing lines is hard.  Especially 
> when
> marketers insist on erasing them.  There is a chain of transport cafes in
> the UK which describes them as "roadside restaurants."  Over the issue
> of seating versus food speed, I appear to be alone.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
> 
> 
> ___
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> 


-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 12:58, bkil  wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
>

> almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a
> lot of things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this
> particular discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving
> interpretations of established tags that didn't find other supporting
> voices.
>

So it appears to me, too.  My mental taxonomy of what is and is not a cafe
clearly differs from that of other mappers in the UK.  For me the seating
is important.  It is usually the case that a place without seating will
normally sell fast food because people don't like standing in a queue for
20 minutes.  But I appear to be alone in thinking of McDonalds as a
cafe with a particular cuisine and limited menu (and bizarre lengths of
crispy potato instead of proper chips).

Approach it from the other direction.  Cafes in the US (called Diners there)
sell burgers, amongst other things.  A diner might have a menu very
similar to McDonalds.  Is that now a fast food joint rather than a cafe?
If so, what if it limits the menu in summer and has a more expanded one
in winter?

Things blur a lot in the real world and drawing lines is hard.  Especially
when
marketers insist on erasing them.  There is a chain of transport cafes in
the UK which describes them as "roadside restaurants."  Over the issue
of seating versus food speed, I appear to be alone.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-30 Thread bkil

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 12:11 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> it is you who knows the cukrászda best. You must decide (together with your 
> fellow local mappers who also know the feature), whether it is a subtype of 
> one of the established tags, or whether it is so different that it must get a 
> new tag. People from England or Italy can not help significantly you to make 
> this decision, because we do not know the feature well. We can only help you 
> by asking questions and trying to explain what the implications and meaning 
> of the established tags are (and only if we can concur on a common meaning 
> ;-) which is not a given, as shown by this discussion). You will also almost 
> everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I have read a lot of 
> things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in this particular 
> discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving interpretations of 
> established tags that didn't find other supporting voices.
>

Indeed your input is highly valuable. In parallel to this thread, your
answers have sparked a constructive 6th/7th wave of discussions in
Hungarian on matrix.

It's not that we disagree within the community, it's that we honestly
don't know the _right_ answer. We're trying to dig deeply into the
linguistic, historical and cultural aspects as well to better
understand the constraints.

It's a major blocker that the most important key words do not have
proper translation between English and Hungarian, or their approximate
translations misleadingly map to different concepts or subsets of
substantances (sütemény, péksütemény, cukrászsütemény, édesség,
cukrász, torta, desszert, ...).

We're trying to avoid this by trying to come up with new compound
words and/or generalizing by categories.

> I think this is what we all are striving for here, the problem is that it is 
> not obvious. It is clear we ideally want to be able to exactly understand 
> from the tags what kind of object it is, but if have too many different types 
> on the top level, it will make it difficult to use the data (you must know 
> all these tags and look for them in order to show them to your users), while 
> if we have too few top level tags, people must also look for all the subtags 
> in order not to get a wrong impression. We are looking for a "middle way", 
> and what makes sense in this regard is seen differently by different people. 
> That's why we are discussing here.
>

So we're just now working with another member of our community in
attempting to come up with a schema where we could "micromap" the type
of desserts served by category. This direction may allow for using
more general top level amenity and shop tags, although I personally
don't see an existing one that would be an _optimal_ choice. If not
done right, its maintenance burden may also be higher than
anticipated. In general, a new top level tag is sometimes understood
to be a shorthand for a bunch of other subtags (existing or virtual
ones), so we'll see what kind of redundancy this would introduce.

We're still doodling about this, but will keep you posted.

>> From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the
>> workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to
>> well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world,
>> because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they
>> also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice
>> mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then?
>
> by documenting it in the wiki, also in your language
>

So basically my argument here was that it is good practice to document
tags and useful combinations (I also do that as a hobby), we should in
general prefer not to use tag wordings that aren't "obvious" given
basic knowledge of English. Hence, I agree that we should keep it
simple and to give at least a fair chance for international users to
understand a POI without local knowledge.

> (and potentially convincing the makers of tagging presets to cater for it).
>

At some point in time, a well intentioned translator caused great
confusion by mixing shop=confectionery and shop=pastry, but we fixed
it promptly. I agree that after we agreed on a schema that could work
across borders, it would be a great benefit to the mapping community
to make presets for it.

> (I have seen there are quite some hits in the wiki already for this word).
>

Yes, as mentioned, we're having this FAQ all the time, and hence at
least we started to document the dirty workarounds that we'd been
using up to now to be consistent locally, but this consistency breaks
down around the world (and with the sit-in kind of cukrászda).

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

Am Mo., 29. Juni 2020 um 14:05 Uhr schrieb bkil :

> If we already add a type, why can't we make it right? Why not use such
> a taxonomy that makes sense, enabling interpretation for both locals
> and internationally?




I think this is what we all are striving for here, the problem is that it
is not obvious. It is clear we ideally want to be able to exactly
understand from the tags what kind of object it is, but if have too many
different types on the top level, it will make it difficult to use the data
(you must know all these tags and look for them in order to show them to
your users), while if we have too few top level tags, people must also look
for all the subtags in order not to get a wrong impression. We are looking
for a "middle way", and what makes sense in this regard is seen differently
by different people. That's why we are discussing here.



> I'm still not sure how we should tag a cukrászda around the world and
> I haven't made a concrete suggestion for this yet, but I'm positive
> that users are looking for this and deserve the right to be able to
> search for it _somehow_.



it is you who knows the cukrászda best. You must decide (together with your
fellow local mappers who also know the feature), whether it is a subtype of
one of the established tags, or whether it is so different that it must get
a new tag. People from England or Italy can not help significantly you to
make this decision, because we do not know the feature well. We can only
help you by asking questions and trying to explain what the implications
and meaning of the established tags are (and only if we can concur on a
common meaning ;-) which is not a given, as shown by this discussion). You
will also almost everytime find someone who does not agree, and while I
have read a lot of things from Paul that made sense in other contexts, in
this particular discussion it appeared to me that he was sometimes giving
interpretations of established tags that didn't find other supporting
voices.



> From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the
> workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to
> well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world,
> because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they
> also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice
> mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then?



by documenting it in the wiki, also in your language (and potentially
convincing the makers of tagging presets to cater for it). (I have seen
there are quite some hits in the wiki already for this word).

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-29 Thread Jarek Piórkowski

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:53, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
>  wrote:
>> While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am 
>> from, and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food 
>> restaurant
>
> I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would glorify a
> McDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant."  Candle-lit quarter
> pounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?
>
> However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
> sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
> had to map a McD).  For me there is a very, very big distinction between
> a takeaway-only place and somewhere you can sit down to eat.  Counter-only
> service is not a biggie.  Speed of the food is somewhat important but speed
> is a continuous variable, even at a single establishment: I can go to a
> chip shop and, if there's no queue, have my order filled in under a minute;
> or I can go in and they've run out of chips and I have to wait 10 minutes
> while they fry more.  Whether or not I can sit down out of the rain
> matters far more to me.
>
> But we have what we have: a tag that seems specially crafted for McD,
> whether it has seating or not, as opposed to a tag for somewhere with
> no seats at all.

(Sorry for bringing this thread about cukiernias further off-topic.
This is also related to the parallel discussion that started off being
about bubble tea places.)

This is getting faintly ridiculous. It is all good and well to use
British English in OSM, but let's not extend it to mean that we have
to limit ourselves to definitions of places as they exist in parts of
the UK.  Per guidelines set out by you, a lot of establishments mapped
as cafes in OSM aren't cafes (Starbuckses, Costas, and anything even
remotely similar), and a lot of establishments mapped as fast_food are
actually cafes (McDonald's and anything similar). I'm half-expecting
to hear that a Starbucks is actually a bar with drink:coffee=only.

At some point we have to draw a line and say that OSM tagging of
almost a million objects is unlikely to be changed, regardless of what
the words strictly mean in British English.

McDonald's is an extremely common type of gastronomic service in
American-like-culture world: you place an order from a fixed menu,
food is prepared from pre-made supplies, possibly being warmed or
grilled but not a meal fully cooked to order, there is normally no
table service, there is usually casual seating in the establishment,
and takeaway trade is also quite high. There is no way
amenity=fast_food is "special crafted for McD".

Here's a local shawarma place near me, serving wraps or plates with
assorted vegetables, sauces, and meats, assembled in front of the
customer from prepared ingredients (links lead to images hosted on
Google servers):
- there is some non-fancy seating and there is also a lot of takeaway
trade: https://goo.gl/maps/ve2YXgi29z8jstdH6
- ingredients are pre-chopped, meat is cooking on a vertical
rotisserie, nothing is fried in a back kitchen:
https://goo.gl/maps/PxUAyt4UXXT4wmW27

Here is an American import in Manchester that operates on the same
principles: https://goo.gl/maps/HKxevHp8rpceQw8RA ,
https://goo.gl/maps/xZv2cH5LZZJ3QNaQA

How should my shawarma place be tagged per British English? Is it a
cafe even though it doesn't have a back kitchen and doesn't serve
cooked meals? A fast_food? But it has seating. Surely not a candle-lit
restaurant. shop=food perhaps? amenity=fast_food_with_seating?

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...



sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 21:02, bkil  wrote:
> 
> However, I'm not quite comfortable with someone adding a specific
> combination of top level tags to convey a new kind of function
> regardless of how similar the synthesis result might sound like unless
> the meaning of the independent tags can stand on their own on
> the given POI and be valid


+1, the combination only works if the place is both, not if the combination 
would be intended to be a new type which is neither


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 17:34, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> Those that do serve wine should be tagged with
> drink:wine=served. Something that I do bother about in Europe.

the drink:wine=* tag is used 3265 times, half of them with amenity and the 
other half with shops, but there are more than one million restaurants in 
OpenStreetMap, i.e. in general we do not explicitly tag whether a restaurant 
serves wine, you will have to know the local habits if you’re interested in 
wine.

Here’s the drink:wine map, its used mostly in Europe as it seems:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/drink:wine#map

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

I think there would be room for such POI specialization in Hungary as
well (menza/cafeteria, kifőzde/étkezde, csárda, kisvendéglő, fogadó,
kávéház/kávézó, bisztró, pince, romkocsma).

Although, I may not be catching the gist here, based on the concept of
not including values in key names, should it be
restaurant:type=it:ristorente;it:pizzeria instead? Or is this a
translatable key, so we could add the equivalent
restaurant:type:hu=étterem;pizzéria
in there as well along all other translations? That sounds a bit
redundant.

But basically yes, that could work, *if* we could find something to
specialize under. If we specialized sit-in "cukrászda" under
"café/kávéház", should we also create a "virtual" category under café
named "real kávéház"? That sounds like a bit involved.

Specializing the takeaway "cukrászda" under something close to
"pastry" may or may not work, depending on whether non-artisan pastry
shops are common outside Hungary and if they could lead to confusion
or not.

We also have places whose names implicate "mixed" function around
here, like "Étterem & pizzéria", "Étterem & cukrászda", "Cukrászda &
fagyizó", "Kávéház & cukrászda", "Kávézó & pékség", but in most cases
it is easy to determine the main function on a survey, most of the
time even from their website (most often restaurant, cukrászda,
cukrászda, cukrászda and café respectively, although the last one
could actually turn out to be indeed both a café and a bakery at the
same site).

However, I'm not quite comfortable with someone adding a specific
combination of top level tags to convey a new kind of function
regardless of how similar the synthesis result might sound like unless
the meaning of the independent tags can stand on their own on
the given POI and be valid.

For example I've seen something in Austria that looked like a
cukrászda being tagged amenity=café + shop=bakery (probably based on
the name). In general, if a data user that does not interpret this
combination specially only wanted to search for cafés, returning this
could be misleading as mentioned in the previous mail. If, on the
other hand it wanted to find all bakeries (to purchase bread or kifli
for example), the user would again be disappointed because such places
most often only keep fancy bakery products, not staple ones.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 4:09 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 28. Jun 2020, at 15:58, bkil  wrote:
>
> We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
> shop=pastry or amenity=cafe.
>
>
>
> today I think I would prefer a generic descriptive term as the main tag (e.g. 
> shop=sweet_bakery) and have subtags for specilizations or product categories.
>
> Another (general) issue are “mixed” places like “Bäckerei Konditorei Cafe” or 
> “Bar Pasticceria Gelateria Tavola Calda”, as the individual classes often 
> tend to use the same key.
> One way I am paying tribute to these is the
> restaurant:type:it tag, which gets multiple (slightly “normalized”) values in 
> the local (here Italian) language:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait
>
> These can be quite useful for people speaking the language and familiar with 
> the local expectations, and might eventually be transformed to more specific 
> detail tags later (not holding my breath for it).
>
>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Yes, "we" refers to the Hungarian mapping community who we discussed this
topic with a few times in the past, although we're still waiting for
others from the neighboring area to also chime in.

We'd be more than happy if we could have input from as many cultures
as possible.

In Hungary, coffeehouses (and cafés) generally do not make _any_ of
their desserts, while a cukrászda makes _almost_ all of them (if not all).
Hot meals are also not expected in a cukrászda, while some fraction of
cafes around here do offer a time limited daily lunch:menu=* (they
usually order such meals from external kitchens), though as mentioned
it would be plausible for a bigger coffeehouse to have a kitchen where
they could cook something simple like an omelette.
However, I would be surprised if coffeehouses were common in the UK which
do not serve any coffee.

The mapnik icon of a café is a coffee cup. The primary motivation of
us wanting to go to a café is to have some coffee, tea, a soft drink
and perhaps something to go with that.

The icon of a cukrászda could be some kind of dessert (unfortunately
the piece of cake is taken by shop=pastry). The primary motivation of
going to a cukrászda is to have some nice desserts, and perhaps some
liquid to go with that - so that's just the corollary.

The use case is clearly different, and the two can rarely be
substituted for one another. For example, if you plan to go out on a
date in a cukrászda, but it suddenly closes the day before, you won't
reschedule the event to a café - you will reschedule to another
cukrászda. If you planned a date to a Korean restaurant and you have
to reschedule it similarly, the Mongolian restaurant would be a
fulfilling substitute for most people.

As highlighted in our notes, people usually don't go to a cukrászda
because they are hungry - they usually have something to eat at a
restaurant or at home beforehand.

Placing custom orders is only an option - a defining feature of a
cukrászda is that they keep a buffer of some of the most popular
desserts inside a chilled see-through counter that you can choose
from based on visuals (also a unique feature - this is rare in a café).

Of course some of the desserts can only be prepared afresh, so one
can sit down with some salty appetizers until it is ready. In Hungary,
we don't quite have other kinds of "pastry shops" as an alternative, so
it's really not a "30-minute side trip".

craft=patisserie doesn't seem to be an established tag. Also this is
not something like a beekeeper where we can ring the doorbell anytime
to get some honey. Due to health regulations, a "cukrász" (~something
like pastry cook) is not allowed to make desserts at home - she must
operate a kitchen for this purpose. Then for the same reason, no
customers or guests are allowed in the kitchen, there must be a place
where they can be served (at a cukrászda in person or perhaps by delivery).

We did consider possibilities for mapping the kitchen as well (maybe
with the tag similar to what you suggest, or the more established and
related craft=confectionery), but I personally don't find that of
priority for the average map user, we'll see later on.

This itself is a major difference compared to a bakery, because baking
simple flour based breads and simple baker's confections doesn't
command the same number of permits or expertise (and they usually
don't need a chilled counter either).

It is understandable that there will always be corner cases and that
mapping is not 100% science, but this doesn't mean we couldn't even
try to get things right. People may or may not be looking for cafes
that much, because they are pretty common, but a cukrászda is a much
more rare and valuable POI compared to that.

Indeed most single cukrászda does not feature every kind of dessert that
I've listed, but they usually feature many items from multiple categories,
(usually many times the number of possibilities compared to a café
that purchases only the most popular few kinds of desserts from a
cukrászda for offer) and if we only listed the most representative
upper level categories individually, it would still leave lots of
room for mapper error.

Overall, adding cuisine=* (5-10 items listed, some non-pastry) +
shop=pastry + artisan=yes may be a kludgy workaround for a
cukrászat/cukrászda where you can't sit in, but this reasoning would
make shop=confectionery redundant as well. But we still need a
solution for the sit-in kind which is clearly an amenity.

So we'll be thinking about some mapping options and will also discuss
it later on.

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-29 Thread Niels Elgaard Larsen

Paul Allen:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
>  > wrote:
> 
> While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am 
> from,
> and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food 
> restaurant
> 
> 
> I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would glorify a
> McDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant."  
Me too.
>Candle-lit quarter
> pounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?

I do expect restaurants to offer wine. Around here at least.
But I have also mapped restaurants in e.g., Jordan and Morocco where you would 
not
expect restaurants to have wine. Those that do serve wine should be tagged with
drink:wine=served. Something that I do bother about in Europe.


> However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
> sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
> had to map a McD).  For me there is a very, very big distinction between
> a takeaway-only place and somewhere you can sit down to eat.  Counter-only
> service is not a biggie.  Speed of the food is somewhat important but speed
> is a continuous variable, even at a single establishment: I can go to a
> chip shop and, if there's no queue, have my order filled in under a minute;
> or I can go in and they've run out of chips and I have to wait 10 minutes
> while they fry more.  Whether or not I can sit down out of the rain
> matters far more to me.
> 
> But we have what we have: a tag that seems specially crafted for McD,
> whether it has seating or not, as opposed to a tag for somewhere with
> no seats at all.

I do not think it is just for McDonalds.
Here in Copenhagen there are some Pizza joints that have a couple of small 
tables,
and sometimes a few more outside in the summer. They have no service, cutlery,
napkings or anything and are mostly used by customers waiting to pick up a 
pizza. Put
once in a while you see people eating there.



-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-29 Thread Paul Allen

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 11:56, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:41, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
> >
> > You would be surprised if you wanted to cure your hunger in a Hungarian
> cafe. I do not expect (real, nutritious) food in a cafe.
>
> because it seems the term „cafe“ in Britain has a different meaning than
> it has in Germany, Austria, Hungary (likely some Austrian influences) and
> other places. At least this is what Paul tells us

Now you have me checking my sanity!  Again.

Yep.  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafe_(British) a cafe (British
English)
is a place to get real, nutritional (but often very greasy and unhealthy)
food.  Known
in the US as a diner or greasy spoon.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasy_spoon
it should not be confused with a European cafe, which primarily serves
coffee and
light snacks (which takes us into Hungarian cake territory).

> (I admit I found it more than strange that cafe could be a suitable term
> for a McDonald‘s, Mc Cafe aside)
>

I found it even more bizarre that Jake Edmonds referred to McD as a fast
food
restaurant.  But apparently that is the state-of-the-art term in the US for
places
like McD.  I'd have categorized McD as a fast food cafe (or fast food diner
in US speak).  Of course, US marketing embiggens everything it touches so
that everything sounds more grandiose than it actually is,

All of which indicates our tagging of food establishments, especially cafes,
may be in a big mess.  McD is a restaurant selling fast food, or a cafe
selling fast food, or a special category that sells fast food but may or
may not have seats.  Cafes sell full meals or just coffee and cakes.  Not a
good situation for a world map.  Especially as it's too late to retag
everything.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

> That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what Yellow 
> Pages is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.

Yes, I've been wondering why we keep adding streets and POI to OSM, I
thought that's what Google Maps is for.

Now seriously, OSM has a great advantage of not favoring only
motorists and that the schema (and its POI set!) can be extended based
on demand - by the people, for the people. This clearly sets the two
aside and it has been one of the top arguments I use when I call for
supporting OSM (but see also: tracking, offline usability, ...).

Why keep data together in a database if you could get the same
information from randomly scattered sources? Clearly a database
carries value - it is protected by EU database rights as well (they
are probably protected in the UK as well _somehow_).

Surely I'm not saying that we should pour everything into OSM. That's
why we have outside links to Wikipedia and Wikidata. But the most
basic information must be present for each POI (=point of public
interest): it's position (making OSM a geo-database) and something
that carries an identification, like it's name, contact:website with
more information and the type of POI, possibly for the benefit of
foreigners or if it can't be inferred from the name, or if multiple
things with the same name can be found at roughly the same position.

If we already add a type, why can't we make it right? Why not use such
a taxonomy that makes sense, enabling interpretation for both locals
and internationally? It's not like I advocate adding dozens of useless
extra tags - I'm advocating replacing an ill-defined or ill-fitting
word with another word that fits the type better. This doesn't carry
that much of a database overhead. Now compare this to if we always had
to list the full menu of a place so searching could be made operable.
This would also be a nightmare from the perspective of keeping the
data up to date as discussed in some previous threads.

It is considered best practice to tag the type of POI in such a way
that people (and machines) are allowed to understand the basic essence
(primary purpose) of a given place just by looking at the semantic
tags (so minus the name and strapline).

I'm still not sure how we should tag a cukrászda around the world and
I haven't made a concrete suggestion for this yet, but I'm positive
that users are looking for this and deserve the right to be able to
search for it _somehow_. Mappers deserve the right to be able to tag
what they see on the ground. People wasting time searching for
workarounds to tag a curkászda means that they care enough. Why should
users again waste more time when they are trying to use the data that
mappers have scrambled on purpose?

From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the
workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to
well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world,
because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they
also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice
mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then? This also
shows that in the minds of people familiar with the concept, a bakery,
a café, a cukrászda and a sweets shop are all very different things.
Hence after all these years, I came to admit that I was wrong and this
workaround doesn't work, so I stopped recommending it. Sometimes we
have to admit that we were wrong and move on to the right direction -
this is what agility is about.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 9:05 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 18:51, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
>
>> Me too.  A cukrászda is definitely not a cafe in my opinion. A cukrászda 
>> surely offers a wide variety of self-made sweets, probably coffee too. A 
>> cafe, tagged with cuisine=cake, probably has a limited selection of cakes 
>> (from unknown source).
>
>
> So one offers home-made cakes and the other may offer home-made cakes
> (the few cake-only cafes I'm aware of around here offer home-made
> cakes) or may not.  I'm not sure that merits a different value of main
> tag.  They both sell cakes.
>
>>
>> And what about the tourist, who makes a 30-minute side trip to go to a 
>> coffee shop to eat some sweets, and finds only two kinds of marlenka in a 
>> paper box?
>
>
> That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what Yellow 
> Pages
> is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.
>
>>
>> I share the opinion that some cukrászdas are not shops, they should be 
>> tagged as amenity (but not amenity=cafe).
>
>
> From where I'm sitting, they quack like cafes.  Cafes with very limited 
> choices of
> cuisine, but still cafes.  Some of them are cafes selling home-made products,
> but they still quack like cafes.  They are cafes I would avoid 
> (diet-controlled
> diabetes) just as I would avoid vegetarian cafes (I don't like their menus) so
> I would be delighted to find those things specified by cuisine=* so I could
> avoid

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...



sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 13:35, bkil  wrote:
> 
> Okay, so at least now I better see where the misunderstanding stems
> from. Let's get some facts straight.


thank you for this summary which is in line with how I would see it.


Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-29 Thread Paul Allen

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am
> from, and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food
> restaurant
>

I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would glorify a
McDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant."  Candle-lit quarter
pounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?

However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
had to map a McD).  For me there is a very, very big distinction between
a takeaway-only place and somewhere you can sit down to eat.  Counter-only
service is not a biggie.  Speed of the food is somewhat important but speed
is a continuous variable, even at a single establishment: I can go to a
chip shop and, if there's no queue, have my order filled in under a minute;
or I can go in and they've run out of chips and I have to wait 10 minutes
while they fry more.  Whether or not I can sit down out of the rain
matters far more to me.

But we have what we have: a tag that seems specially crafted for McD,
whether it has seating or not, as opposed to a tag for somewhere with
no seats at all.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

Okay, so at least now I better see where the misunderstanding stems
from. Let's get some facts straight. It may be true that almost all
words in OSM are interpreted within British English, but amenity=café
is an exception (we've decided to leave out the accent for the benefit
of the international community).

Other than the accidental clash in wording, it doesn't refer to a
British cafe, greasy spoon or a diner - without having visited one of
those, I'd probably simply tag those as amenity=fast_food.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafe (redirect to coffeehouse)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafe_(British)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasy_spoon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diner

Let me share some proof to consider.

If you refer to:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcafe

> amenity=cafe (café) is for a generally informal place with sit-down 
> facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks. This includes 
> coffee-shops and tea shops selling perhaps tea, coffee and cakes through to 
> bistros selling meals with alcoholic drinks."

This highlights the fact that we've introduced this kind of amenity to
tag a café or coffee-shop as per the text and Wikipedia.

The pictures all show coffeehouses.

The proposed icon that shows the most prominent feature of this
amenity depicts a coffee mug.

You can verify that this was the original intention and original icon
of the creators as well:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dcafe#Voting

If you think the community should reserve the tag amenity=cafe for
diners and British cafe, what tag do you think the rest of the world
should be using for their hundreds of thousands of coffeehouses?

As mentioned by Feket, a coffeehouse usually also has something to "go
with" your coffee, tea or other beverage, like a sandwich, a snack or
even a piece of pie or cake they purchased (possibly from a
cukrászda). Most small cafés around here usually lack a kitchen in
which they could cook hot meals. I think offering something quick and
simple like an omelette mentioned on the talk page could also be
plausible, but people definitely aren't coming here for the food.
However, it is not unheard of in Hungary that you could enjoy a 2-hour
limited-time daily lunch:menu=* meal in a café or in a drink-only pub
that they also order from outside kitchens (I also have some
description of this custom if you are interested - the source page has
recently been vandalized).

This also brings us back to amenity=fast_food:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfast_food

> Fast food is for a place concentrating on very fast counter-only service and 
> take-away food.
>
>The food has a short preparation and serving time, usually because it is 
>industrially prepared food and requires very few additional preparation steps. 
>Food is typically served on disposable plates or in boxes, and often to be 
>eaten with plastic cutlery. Food is typically paid for at the counter prior to 
>consuming. There may be sit-down facilities ranging from one or two to many 
>easy-to-clean chairs and tables.
>
>The most obvious examples are the ubiquitous US chains such as McDonald's, but 
>also includes places like Subway sandwich shops, and may include "fast casual" 
>places like Chipotle Mexican Grill, Hot Dog booths, China take away, 
>carts/food trucks (only ones that appear regularly at the same place) and more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_food_restaurant

> A fast food restaurant, also known as a quick service restaurant (QSR) within 
> the industry, is a specific type of restaurant that serves fast food cuisine 
> and has minimal table service. The food served in fast food restaurants is 
> typically part of a "meat-sweet diet", offered from a limited menu, cooked in 
> bulk in advance and kept hot, finished and packaged to order, and usually 
> available for take away, though seating may be provided. Fast food 
> restaurants are typically part of a restaurant chain or franchise operation 
> that provides standardized ingredients and/or partially prepared foods and 
> supplies to each restaurant through controlled supply channels. The term 
> "fast food" was recognized in a dictionary by Merriam–Webster in 1951.[1]
>
>Arguably, the first fast food restaurants originated in the United States with 
>White Castle in 1921.[2] Today, American-founded fast food chains such as 
>McDonald's (est. 1940) and KFC (est. 1952)[3][4][5][6] are multinational 
>corporations with outlets across the globe.

Note that illustrations depict Burger King, McDonald's and a fish and
chip shop in England, and that the icon generally depicts a fast food
item like a burger. It is true that there exist such small fast_food
restaurants that they operate from a vehicle and they may only have
tables, but no seats (takeaway=only and/or capacity=0), but this is a
minority. The vast majority do have at least picnic table kind of
seating outside, and ones residing within buildings

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-29 Thread Jake Edmonds via Tagging

While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am from, 
and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food restaurant 

Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

> On 29 Jun 2020, at 12:56, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:41, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
>> 
>> You would be surprised if you wanted to cure your hunger in a Hungarian 
>> cafe. I do not expect (real, nutritious) food in a cafe.
> 
> 
> because it seems the term „cafe“ in Britain has a different meaning than it 
> has in Germany, Austria, Hungary (likely some Austrian influences) and other 
> places. At least this is what Paul tells us (I admit I found it more than 
> strange that cafe could be a suitable term for a McDonald‘s, Mc Cafe aside)
> 
> Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:41, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
> 
> You would be surprised if you wanted to cure your hunger in a Hungarian cafe. 
> I do not expect (real, nutritious) food in a cafe.

because it seems the term „cafe“ in Britain has a different meaning than it has 
in Germany, Austria, Hungary (likely some Austrian influences) and other 
places. At least this is what Paul tells us (I admit I found it more than 
strange that cafe could be a suitable term for a McDonald‘s, Mc Cafe aside)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-29 Thread Gábor Fekete

From: Paul Allen 
> > Because I can spot a cafe by looking through the window as I go past but
> I cannot determine
> the type of service without hanging around or going in.
>

I can identify a cukrászda through its window.

> That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what
> Yellow Pages is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.
>

In Hungary in every restaurant before you pay the bill, the waiter asks if
you want some dessert. She asks you, even if they only have pancakes as
dessert. So one could tag every "amenity=restaurant" with
"cuisine=*;dessert". But the restaurants do not want you to sit in only for
a pancake, they want you to eat a whole course (food).
Cukrászdas want you to eat from their many sweets.
If Google is for finding specific places in the world, what is OSM for?


> >   Do we need to make that distinction in OSM?  If I were by myself and
> very hungry
> I'd look for a cafe; if I wanted to impress somebody by taking them for a
> meal I'd look for a restaurant.
>

You would be surprised if you wanted to cure your hunger in a Hungarian
cafe. I do not expect (real, nutritious) food in a cafe.

Regards,

fekete
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-29 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging




Jun 29, 2020, 02:08 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 08:59, Paul Allen <> pla16...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Harder, as somebody else pointed out, is a McDonalds with seats.  It's
>> fast food, but it has seats.  I'd map it as a cafe with takeaway=yes since
>> we don't appear to have the option for fast food with seating=yes.
>>
>
> But McDonalds call themselves "restaurants"!
>
And they also present their food as healthy.
Both are misleading advertisement that should be ignore like almost
all of advertising.
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 02:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> But McDonalds call themselves "restaurants"!

it does not matter. That’s the difference between advertising and reality ;-)

It may be a “restaurant”, but not for OpenStreetMap, at least around here 
nobody considers them restaurants. 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-28 Thread Jake Edmonds via Tagging

I’ve never heard anyone refer to McDonalds as a cafe. 

Although they do have some standalone McCafe locations 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCafé

Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

> On 28 Jun 2020, at 22:14, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 21:06, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
> 
>>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 15:54 Paul Allen,  wrote:
>>> Cafes are more about fast food with seating (again,
>>> a generalization).  To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food 
>>> with
>>> seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a cafe).
>> 
>> 
>> Does this mean that in British English, a McDonald's that has seating is not 
>> a fast food place but a cafe?
> 
> I would tag it as such.  With takeaway=yes.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-28 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 08:59, Paul Allen  wrote:

> Harder, as somebody else pointed out, is a McDonalds with seats.  It's
> fast food, but it has seats.  I'd map it as a cafe with takeaway=yes since
> we don't appear to have the option for fast food with seating=yes.
>

But McDonalds call themselves "restaurants"!

It doesn't explicitly say alcoholic beverages, so it doesn't fit pubs.
> There are
> still some pubs that don't sell meals, so it doesn't fit pubs.  But I'm
> reading
> it with a British bias.  With that bias, it doesn't even hint at pubs.
>

Me also: pub = alcohol

do you have restaurants that do not serve alcohol?
>>
>
> Yes.
>

Yes, we also have restaurants that are BYO (Bring Your Own [alcohol]) only,
& others, particularly Chinese eat-in or takeaway, that only serve soft
drinks
But even fully licensed restaurants are not, by law, allowed to just serve
alcohol - you have to sit down & have a meal.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 09:18, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> You can get alcohol at gas stations

No

, at Mc Donald’s

No

, at fast food places

*Very* limited

, pubs,

Yes

supermarkets,

Packaged only ie take home, not to drink on the premises

convenience stores

No

, cafes,

Very rare

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 09:41, Paul Allen  wrote:

>   I'm not aware of any takeaways near me licensed
>

I only know of one local take-away fish & chip shop with a liquor licence,
although there are other dine-in or take-aways that have them.
Interestingly enough, that fish & chip shop has been there for years, but
when it closed down last year & the new owner decided to apply for a liquor
licence, it took 6 months before they re-opened, due to the licence
application going through!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...



sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 01:41, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> BTW, until recently there was a combined cafe and art gallery near me.  Not
> separate rooms, but one big room.  Paintings for sale on the walls of the 
> cafe,
> sculptures for sale on shelves and window ledges.  Is it a cafe with an art
> gallery or an art gallery with a cafe? 


not so uncommon. These situations are nobrainers when it happens that their 
main keys (of gallery and of cafe) are different, otherwise it’s more 
complicated, unless you use the semicolon 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...



sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 01:41, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> I'm not aware of any takeaways near me licensed
> to sell alcohol.


it may have something to do with public drinking being allowed or not (on the 
street, not in a pub)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 00:18, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 00:59, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > It doesn't explicitly say alcoholic beverages, so it doesn't fit pubs.
>
> To decide the kind of place I would not look whether a place sells alcohol
> or not,

I think for somewhere to be a pub that alcohol must be on sale.

as this is not a question of typology but if drug legislation (e.g. in
> Germany but also in Italy, most places will sell you alcohol, you do need a
> license AFAIK, but it seems it is not difficult to get). You can get
> alcohol at gas stations, at Mc Donald’s, at fast food places, pubs,
> supermarkets, convenience stores, cafes, bars, pubs, etc.
>

Licensing is a little stricter in the UK.  At least for consumption on the
premises.
Off sales are another matter.  Still controlled, but I was surprised to
find a local
butcher was licensed (but it also sells vegetables, so arguably is
providing all
you need for a meal at home).  I'm not aware of any takeaways near me
licensed
to sell alcohol.

>
> > I doubt the economics are so different that meals aren't more profitable
> > than drinks.
>
> from what I heard, drinks are more profitable than meals, restaurants make
> a significant part of their profit with drinks
>

>From what I heard (son of a pub landlord) the pub made a lot more money on
meals than drinks.  But that may be more to do with the decline in people
going to pubs to drink.

>
> btw, this whole conversation is partly offtopic because we are now
> focusing on cafe and fast food, restaurant etc while the thread is mainly
> about “sweet bakeries”.
>

It's on meta-topic though.  Examining the problems with existing tagging
and fitting square pegs into round holes to give us analogies to help
evaluate
(or possibly obfuscate) the original problem.

BTW, until recently there was a combined cafe and art gallery near me.  Not
separate rooms, but one big room.  Paintings for sale on the walls of the
cafe,
sculptures for sale on shelves and window ledges.  Is it a cafe with an art
gallery or an art gallery with a cafe?  From the outside it looked like a
cafe,
apart from the sign saying "Pendre Art" (Pendre is the name of the road it
was on).

Real life is a lot blurrier than our nice, crisp carto.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...



sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 00:59, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Maybe bread, probably pastry, but I very much doubt sweets. 


I meant to say pastry, not sweets like in candy. Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 00:59, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> It doesn't explicitly say alcoholic beverages, so it doesn't fit pubs. 

To decide the kind of place I would not look whether a place sells alcohol or 
not, as this is not a question of typology but if drug legislation (e.g. in 
Germany but also in Italy, most places will sell you alcohol, you do need a 
license AFAIK, but it seems it is not difficult to get). You can get alcohol at 
gas stations, at Mc Donald’s, at fast food places, pubs, supermarkets, 
convenience stores, cafes, bars, pubs, etc. 

> I doubt the economics are so different that meals aren't more profitable
> than drinks.

from what I heard, drinks are more profitable than meals, restaurants make a 
significant part of their profit with drinks

Cheers Martin 

btw, this whole conversation is partly offtopic because we are now focusing on 
cafe and fast food, restaurant etc while the thread is mainly about “sweet 
bakeries”.
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 22:14, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> On 28. Jun 2020, at 21:55, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> Either you have very expensive cafes or very cheap restaurants. :)
>
>
> clearly you could have both, so it is not a very good criterion.
>

If it's the same price in both then either the cafe is charging too much (so
will get few customers) or the restaurant is charging too little (so will
go broke).

 To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food with
> seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a cafe)
>
>
> I would expect a fast food to provide seating, not so comfortable seating
> probably,
>

Chip shops without seats exist (probably more common than those with seats).
Most kebab shops don't have seats.  Most non-brand burger shops don't have
seats.

although it is not a must (unlike a cafe or restaurant where it is a
> requirement).
>

At least we agree on that.  Cafes and restaurants have seats. :)

Harder, as somebody else pointed out, is a McDonalds with seats.  It's
fast food, but it has seats.  I'd map it as a cafe with takeaway=yes since
we don't appear to have the option for fast food with seating=yes.  With
hindsight, we could probably have come up with better tagging where
the speed of the food is orthogonal to the seating, but we're stuck with
what we have.

A fast food is designed to eat and walk out, in a  restaurant you would
> also walk in, order, wait, eat and afterwards leave, but you would spend
> much more time there (and they will not kick you out if you kept sitting
> and talking for some time after you finished eating).
>

There we also agree.  To an extent.  Fast food with seats is short stay,
although
I'd call it a cafe.  Restaurant is a longer experience.

A cafe is more like a pub in this regard, you typically meet there with
> other people
>

More the opposite, in my experience.  Cafes are often used by people going
for lunch by themselves.  They may strike up conversation with strangers,
they may not (depends on your culture).  There are solitary drinkers in pubs
but they are rare.

and will stay longer as required to consume the food (that’s what it makes
> it expensive)
>

For a cafe, you don't get long after you've finished.  They're cheaper than
restaurants because they have faster throughput.

>
> we already decided that we want to distinguish these, but it now came out
> that for you a cafe is mainly a place to have breakfast or lunch, while in
> Germany a cafe is more a place to have a coffee and a piece of cake in the
> afternoon (typically you could also have breakfast there, and often also
> small stuff for lunch).
>

Not so different here.  It depends on the cafe.  Some cater more to
breakfast/
lunch trade.  Others cater to passing tourists wanting a piece of cake.
Maybe
there's a need to distinguish between those using more than just cuisine,
but
there's usually some degree of overlap in what is on offer.  Also the name
tends to reflect what they sell: in the UK "tea shop" and "coffee shop" tend
to have a cake bias.  But there are also places that are heavily biased
towards
cake that call themselves cafes.  One cafe I mapped started out selling only
cake and later added non-cake items.  It's a spectrum.

and the wiki just says “ A generally informal place with sit-down
> facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks.”
>
> which is a description that fits for pubs,
>

It doesn't explicitly say alcoholic beverages, so it doesn't fit pubs.
There are
still some pubs that don't sell meals, so it doesn't fit pubs.  But I'm
reading
it with a British bias.  With that bias, it doesn't even hint at pubs.

cafes, bistros, bars, ...
>

Cafes, yes.  Bistros (UK meaning) are more formal than cafes but less formal
(or at least smaller) than restaurants.  Bar is just  a variant of pub,
with even
less expectation of food.

>
> Back when I became old enough to drink in a pub, what you could get to eat
> consisted of
> bags of salted peanuts and crisps.
>
>
> then it’s not so different :)
>

Except that when the smoking ban came in, trade dropped off.  Pubs here
realized that they could make up that trade by selling food.  And that they
made more money selling food than drink.  Especially if they let children
in (which wasn't really permitted decades ago) for family meals.  I'm
surprised
Germany hasn't gone that way.  That smoking ban hit your pubs as hard and
I doubt the economics are so different that meals aren't more profitable
than drinks.

 For some it's hard to decide if they're
>
a pub that serves food or a restaurant that serves alcohol.
>

do you have restaurants that do not serve alcohol?
>

Yes.  Mostly because the authorities decide there are too many outlets
selling alcohol nearby and refuse them a licence.  But even those that are
licenced take a dim view of somebody strolling in for a pint.  Usually they
won't sell you alcohol except with a meal (and often are only licensed to
sell alcohol with a meal).

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

>> On 28. Jun 2020, at 21:55, Paul Allen  wrote:
> Either you have very expensive cafes or very cheap restaurants. :)

clearly you could have both, so it is not a very good criterion. 

>  To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food with
> seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a cafe)

I would expect a fast food to provide seating, not so comfortable seating 
probably, although it is not a must (unlike a cafe or restaurant where it is a 
requirement). A fast food is designed to eat and walk out, in a  restaurant you 
would also walk in, order, wait, eat and afterwards leave, but you would spend 
much more time there (and they will not kick you out if you kept sitting and 
talking for some time after you finished eating).
A cafe is more like a pub in this regard, you typically meet there with other 
people and will stay longer as required to consume the food (that’s what it 
makes it expensive)

 There
> is a distinction between cafe and restaurant that is made in some cultures.  
> Do we
> need to make that distinction in OSM?

we already decided that we want to distinguish these, but it now came out that 
for you a cafe is mainly a place to have breakfast or lunch, while in Germany a 
cafe is more a place to have a coffee and a piece of cake in the afternoon 
(typically you could also have breakfast there, and often also small stuff for 
lunch). 

>> 
>> Traditionally osm tags tend to be underspecified, and people read into thes 
>> e tags what they locally expect from the meaning of the word.
> 
> 
> From my viewpoint, that's not necessarily a good thing.  Not for a global map.

completely agree, it means people might use the same tag for different things 
and not become aware of it, because they locally have the same expectations, 
i.e. it works in their surroundings, but not on a global level
and the wiki just says “ A generally informal place with sit-down facilities 
selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks.”

which is a description that fits for pubs, cafes, bistros, bars, ...

> 
>> E.g. an object tagged as amenity=pub is probably a place where you get 
>> something to eat in Britain, in Germany very less so.
> 
> Back when I became old enough to drink in a pub, what you could get to eat 
> consisted of
> bags of salted peanuts and crisps.

then it’s not so different :)

>  For some it's hard to decide if they're
> a pub that serves food or a restaurant that serves alcohol. 

do you have restaurants that do not serve alcohol?

>  Please don't ask
> me about bread with chocolate in it (I noticed a shop a few miles from me is
> now offering it) as that's a bit of a taxonomic pain.

seems like clearly “sweets”, not?

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 21:06, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 15:54 Paul Allen,  wrote:
>
>> Cafes are more about fast food with seating (again,
>> a generalization).  To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food
>> with
>> seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a
>> cafe).
>>
>
> Does this mean that in British English, a McDonald's that has seating is
> not a fast food place but a cafe?
>

I would tag it as such.  With takeaway=yes.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-28 Thread Jarek Piórkowski

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 15:54 Paul Allen,  wrote:

> Cafes are more about fast food with seating (again,
> a generalization).  To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food
> with
> seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a
> cafe).
>

Does this mean that in British English, a McDonald's that has seating is
not a fast food place but a cafe?

--Jarek
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 20:13, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> On 28. Jun 2020, at 19:52, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>
> it lies in the nature of things that you must know a thing in order to be
> able to describe it in detail. You say a restaurant which hasn’t table
> service is not a restaurant (and I am willing to follow), but then you say
> a cafe is (only/primarily) about the food while a restaurant is about the
> experience, and here I tend to disagree. It may describe the British
> situation well, but I would have thought a cafe is also about the
> experience.
>

In one sense, getting punched in the face is an experience.  But it's not a
good one and not one most people would pay money for.

In my experience, restaurants offer a larger menu than cafes.  Restaurant
menus
generally consist of things that take longer to cook than those on cafe
menus.
That means customers spend longer waiting for their meals.  That means the
seating and ambience needs to be more comfortable or they will be unwilling
to wait.  All that waiting for the food means lower throughput for the
establishment.
That makes restaurants more expensive to operate.

> You also write a restaurant is more expensive than a cafe, while in my
> experience they are both at the same level (wrt the same kind of item,
> naturally a piece of cake is less expensive than a 3 course menu).
>

Either you have very expensive cafes or very cheap restaurants. :)  A place
offering a 3-course menu here is unlikely to call itself a cafe (or be
thought of as
one).

>
> Restaurants have a larger menu, full service and are more expensive than
> cafes.
>
>
> it may depend on the context/cuisine, there are very good restaurants with
> a small (changing) selection, because it’s a good way to provide fresh food
> while a large menu may generally be an indication that things aren’t fresh.
>
> This is true.  I should have said that restaurants generally have a larger
menu.
That's because more preparation is involved rather than having pre-cooked
food
on a rotating hot plate.  Cafes are more about fast food with seating
(again,
a generalization).  To over-generalize even further, a cafe is fast food
with
seats.  My local chip shop (fast food) has a seated area (making it a cafe).

How much of this is a requirement for the OpenStreetMap tag, and how much
> is just your or my expectation for our respective cultural context?
>

That is a deep philosophical question embracing several fields of
knowledge.  There
is a distinction between cafe and restaurant that is made in some
cultures.  Do we
need to make that distinction in OSM?  If I were by myself and very hungry
I'd
look for a cafe; if I wanted to impress somebody by taking them for a meal
I'd look
for a restaurant.

>
> Traditionally osm tags tend to be underspecified, and people read into
> thes
>
e tags what they locally expect from the meaning of the word.
>

>From my viewpoint, that's not necessarily a good thing.  Not for a global
map.

E.g. an object tagged as amenity=pub is probably a place where you get
> something to eat in Britain, in Germany very less so.
>

Back when I became old enough to drink in a pub, what you could get to eat
consisted of
bags of salted peanuts and crisps.  Maybe a pickled egg, if you were
lucky.  These
days many, but not all, British pubs serve food.  For some it's hard to
decide if they're
a pub that serves food or a restaurant that serves alcohol.  Generally, if
they're happy
for you to wander in and just drink, it's a pub (especially if they call
themselves a
pub).

Confectioners make or sell (usually sell) confections, which are things that
>
are rich in sugar.  Divided into bakers' confections (cakes with lots of
> icing)
>
and sugar confections (sweets).
>

the latter including chocolate I guess?

Yes.  Chocolates are sweets.  In British English.

> Maybe we should split chocolate from candy?

Candy is a Merkin term.  British English calls them sweets (but as Merkin
marketing makes more inroads, that will probably change).  Please don't ask
me about bread with chocolate in it (I noticed a shop a few miles from me is
now offering it) as that's a bit of a taxonomic pain.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

> On 28. Jun 2020, at 19:52, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Because I can spot
> a cafe by looking through the window as I go past but I cannot determine
> the type of service without hanging around or going in. 

it lies in the nature of things that you must know a thing in order to be able 
to describe it in detail. You say a restaurant which hasn’t table service is 
not a restaurant (and I am willing to follow), but then you say a cafe is 
(only/primarily) about the food while a restaurant is about the experience, and 
here I tend to disagree. It may describe the British situation well, but I 
would have thought a cafe is also about the experience. You also write a 
restaurant is more expensive than a cafe, while in my experience they are both 
at the same level (wrt the same kind of item, naturally a piece of cake is less 
expensive than a 3 course menu).

> Restaurants have a larger
> menu, full service and are more expensive than cafes.

it may depend on the context/cuisine, there are very good restaurants with a 
small (changing) selection, because it’s a good way to provide fresh food while 
a large menu may generally be an indication that things aren’t fresh.

How much of this is a requirement for the OpenStreetMap tag, and how much is 
just your or my expectation for our respective cultural context? 

Traditionally osm tags tend to be underspecified, and people read into these 
tags what they locally expect from the meaning of the word.
E.g. an object tagged as amenity=pub is probably a place where you get 
something to eat in Britain, in Germany very less so.

> By itself, probably not.  But I wouldn't expect to ever find a place in the UK
> calling itself a restaurant but being self-service.  A place where you serve 
> yourself
> is more of a canteen than a cafe.  But cafes range anywhere from "sit down and
> somebody will take your order" to "walk up to the counter, give your order, 
> sit
> down until your order is ready, walk back to the counter to get your order, 
> sit
> down again". 

agreed.

> Maybe there is some merit in sub-tagging those.  Oh, and
> that was back in the Before Times, things have probably changed, at least
> for the next year or so.

agreed, there’s continuous evolution and new styles are experimented and things 
also change gradually 

> There are so many, though.  Even a small (4-person) distributor near me 
> developed their own blends several years ago and added their own roasting
> machinery (home-built) a couple of years ago.  They supply a lot of cafes
> within about a 30-mile radius.  Are they big enough to deserve their own brand
> in OSM?

IMHO yes, as soon as 1 object uses a brand I would tag it as such. We’ve had a 
similar discussion about petrol stations, where some mappers tagged independent 
brands (with maybe currently not more than one station, or maybe a handful), 
while a few others favored “brand=independent” (as a generic term, it is not 
actually a brand).

> 
>> Add a craft=patisserie node. 
>> 
>> the scheme for craft is craft=profession so patisserie does not really make 
>> sense. 
> 
> True.  But a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, according 
> to
> Emmerson. :)

if we do not strive for consistency it will be more difficult for people to 
understand the scheme (indeed it is already diluted). It makes life for 
everybody harder if we develop the tags without a system in mind

>> Confectioners make or sell (usually sell) confections, which are things that
> are rich in sugar.  Divided into bakers' confections (cakes with lots of 
> icing)
> and sugar confections (sweets).

the latter including chocolate I guess? Maybe we should split chocolate from 
candy?

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 18:51, Gábor Fekete  wrote:

Me too.  A cukrászda is definitely not a cafe in my opinion. A cukrászda
> surely offers a wide variety of self-made sweets, probably coffee too. A
> cafe, tagged with cuisine=cake, probably has a limited selection of cakes
> (from unknown source).
>

So one offers home-made cakes and the other may offer home-made cakes
(the few cake-only cafes I'm aware of around here offer home-made
cakes) or may not.  I'm not sure that merits a different value of main
tag.  They both sell cakes.

> And what about the tourist, who makes a 30-minute side trip to go to a
> coffee shop to eat some sweets, and finds only two kinds of marlenka in a
> paper box?
>

That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what
Yellow Pages
is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.

>
> I share the opinion that some cukrászda*s* are not shops, they should be
> tagged as amenity (but not amenity=cafe).
>

>From where I'm sitting, they quack like cafes.  Cafes with very limited
choices of
cuisine, but still cafes.  Some of them are cafes selling home-made
products,
but they still quack like cafes.  They are cafes I would avoid
(diet-controlled
diabetes) just as I would avoid vegetarian cafes (I don't like their menus)
so
I would be delighted to find those things specified by cuisine=* so I could
avoid them.  I still don't see them as being not-cafes.

I like Indian food, so I think it would be great if Indian restaurants had
special tagging and icons to let me find them more easily.  But they're
just restaurants with a special type of cuisine.  So if I'm in a strange
town and feeling hungry I can look for restaurants on the map and check
their cuisines.

You've not convinced me that these things are anything other than cafes with
a special cuisine.  They're not even unique to your part of the world, we
have
them here: cafes that serve home-made cakes, some beverages and nothing
else.

You've not convinced me that this is a square peg/round hole situation.  It
seems more like a square peg/square hole situation.  Is there anything sold
in cukrászdas that isn't sold in cafes/pastry shops?  Is there anything sold
in cafes that only sell pastries/pastry shops that isn't sold in cukrászda
*s?*

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-28 Thread Jake Edmonds via Tagging



Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

> On 28 Jun 2020, at 19:22, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>>> On 28. Jun 2020, at 17:11, Paul Allen  wrote:
>>> 
>>  Some cafes in the UK lack table service.  Maybe somebody brings your
>> order over after you've placed your order at the counter, maybe your order
>> is announced when it is ready and you have to get it yourself, maybe
>> you sit down and somebody asks what you want then brings it over
>> when it is ready.
> 
> 
> question is whether we distinguish these places by main type or by subtags. 
> Is a self service restaurant a restaurant? Or maybe a fast food? Or a place 
> on its own? 
> 
> Providing table service or not is a significant difference that gener  merits 
> reflection in tagging (IMHO). It is an indication besides others (of course 
> there will be some places that offer decent food in self service, and having 
> table service is not a guarantee that the food will be ok, still it is some 
> indication for the type of “restaurant” when there is no table service).
> 
> 
>> Cafes sell more than coffee.  Cafes may have
>> only one, rather inferior, brand of coffee.
> 
> 
> maybe in Britain ;-)
> Bad jokes aside, I recall a discussion on the local mailing list to tag 
> coffee brands, and there are a handful examples in the db: 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=brand%3DLavazza
> 
There is the microroasting= tag for small coffee roasters but I can’t find 
anything for cafes serving small batch/third wave coffee 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_wave_of_coffee

> 
>> Add a craft=patisserie node. 
> 
> 
> the scheme for craft is craft=profession so patisserie does not really make 
> sense. 
> 
> I guess craft=pâtissier is not considered to be English?
> My dictionary says craft=confectioner does this make sense?
> 
> Cheers Martin
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 18:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> On 28. Jun 2020, at 17:11, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>  Some cafes in the UK lack table service.  Maybe somebody brings your
> order over after you've placed your order at the counter, maybe your order
> is announced when it is ready and you have to get it yourself, maybe
> you sit down and somebody asks what you want then brings it over
> when it is ready.
>
>
> question is whether we distinguish these places by main type or by subtags.
>

Sub-tag, if we distinguish at all.  On general principle.  Because I can
spot
a cafe by looking through the window as I go past but I cannot determine
the type of service without hanging around or going in.  Sub-tag so extra
detail can be added later.  Make it a main tag and I have to guess, and may
guess wrong.

Is a self service restaurant a restaurant?
>

I wouldn't describe self-service as a restaurant.  Restaurants have a larger
menu, full service and are more expensive than cafes.  Restaurants are
about experience; cafes are about food.  Bistros (British English usage)
are small restaurants.

Providing table service or not is a significant difference that gener
>  merits reflection in tagging (IMHO).
>

By itself, probably not.  But I wouldn't expect to ever find a place in the
UK
calling itself a restaurant but being self-service.  A place where you
serve yourself
is more of a canteen than a cafe.  But cafes range anywhere from "sit down
and
somebody will take your order" to "walk up to the counter, give your order,
sit
down until your order is ready, walk back to the counter to get your order,
sit
down again".  Maybe there is some merit in sub-tagging those.  Oh, and
that was back in the Before Times, things have probably changed, at least
for the next year or so.

Cafes sell more than coffee.  Cafes may have
>
> only one, rather inferior, brand of coffee.
>
>
> maybe in Britain ;-)
>

Things have changed even in Britain.  15 years ago it would be rare to find
a cafe with more than one type of coffee and the choice was with milk or
without milk.  Now they often have many types of coffee with many additions,
but I always order "coffee-flavoured coffee" anyway.  Even so, 15 years ago
with only one type of coffee, it was still a cafe.  50 years ago it may
only have
had tea, but it was still a cafe.

> Bad jokes aside, I recall a discussion on the local mailing list to tag
> coffee brands, and there are a handful examples in the db:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=brand%3DLavazza
>

There are so many, though.  Even a small (4-person) distributor near me
developed their own blends several years ago and added their own roasting
machinery (home-built) a couple of years ago.  They supply a lot of cafes
within about a 30-mile radius.  Are they big enough to deserve their own
brand
in OSM?

Add a craft=patisserie node.
>
> the scheme for craft is craft=profession so patisserie does not really
> make sense.
>

True.  But a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,
according to
Emmerson. :)

>
> I guess craft=pâtissier is not considered to be English?
>

It's not well-known outside the cognoscenti, is my guess.  But we borrow
words
all the time.  Like "cognoscenti."  Actually, it looks like we already have
borrowed
that one and decided it means "pastry chef."

My dictionary says craft=confectioner does this make sense?
>

Confectioners make or sell (usually sell) confections, which are things that
are rich in sugar.  Divided into bakers' confections (cakes with lots of
icing)
and sugar confections (sweets).  Often, in my experience, applied to
sweet shops that wish to sound more up-market.  So too ambiguous
to apply to patissiers.

-- 
Paul

>
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-28 Thread Gábor Fekete

>
> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 16:09:37 +0100
> From: Paul Allen 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>     
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda,
> cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria,
> konditorei, patisserie, ...
> Message-ID:
> <
> capy1do+wzv1cohdr63g2yhprkwncpmqhkqgrlgxeetz+_b8...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:58, bkil  wrote:
>
> >
> > We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
> > shop=pastry or amenity=cafe.
>
>
> Less of the "we." You may be dissatisfied with those tags, I am not.
>
[...]
>

Me too.  A cukrászda is definitely not a cafe in my opinion. A cukrászda
surely offers a wide variety of self-made sweets, probably coffee too. A
cafe, tagged with cuisine=cake, probably has a limited selection of cakes
(from unknown source).

[...]
> Add a craft=patisserie node.  I expect that a tourist in a strange town
> looking
> for a pastry shop because of hunger pangs would be more than happy to make
> a 30-minute side trip to go to an artisan pastry shop for a custom order
> (and
> wait however long it takes to bake it).  Such a devotee would be happy to
> write a cartographic style to ensure that two very close nodes render,
> because pastry shops are so VERY important in the scheme of things.
>

And what about the tourist, who makes a 30-minute side trip to go to a
coffee shop to eat some sweets, and finds only two kinds of marlenka in a
paper box?

[...]
>
> Except we already have tags for sweet shops, ice cream shops, and
> pastry shops.  You now propose lumping those all together in one
> top-level tag (which won't happen because there are too many to
> change) yet refuse to use shop=pastry with sub-tags because you
> think it is not specific enough.  Goldilocks didn't enounter a
> bowl of porridge that was simultaneously too hot and too cold
> yet you deem shop=pastry too specific yet not specific
> enough.
>

I share the opinion that some cukrászda*s* are not shops, they should be
tagged as amenity (but not amenity=cafe).

[...]
> Somebody called bkil proposed lumping all types of desserts under a
> single tag.  Maybe you should discuss this with him.  He thinks bakeries
> producing sweet pastry and cukrászda should be lumped together, along
> with shops selling ice cream and salty snacks.  Maybe you could spend
> time off-list arguing with bkil until you reach some sort of logically-
> consistent agreement.
>
> --
> Paul
>

Kind Regards,

fekete
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

>> On 28. Jun 2020, at 17:11, Paul Allen  wrote:
>  Some cafes in the UK lack table service.  Maybe somebody brings your
> order over after you've placed your order at the counter, maybe your order
> is announced when it is ready and you have to get it yourself, maybe
> you sit down and somebody asks what you want then brings it over
> when it is ready.

question is whether we distinguish these places by main type or by subtags. Is 
a self service restaurant a restaurant? Or maybe a fast food? Or a place on its 
own? 

Providing table service or not is a significant difference that gener  merits 
reflection in tagging (IMHO). It is an indication besides others (of course 
there will be some places that offer decent food in self service, and having 
table service is not a guarantee that the food will be ok, still it is some 
indication for the type of “restaurant” when there is no table service).

> Cafes sell more than coffee.  Cafes may have
> only one, rather inferior, brand of coffee.

maybe in Britain ;-)
Bad jokes aside, I recall a discussion on the local mailing list to tag coffee 
brands, and there are a handful examples in the db: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=brand%3DLavazza

> Add a craft=patisserie node. 

the scheme for craft is craft=profession so patisserie does not really make 
sense. 

I guess craft=pâtissier is not considered to be English?
My dictionary says craft=confectioner does this make sense?

Cheers Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 14:58, bkil  wrote:

>
> We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
> shop=pastry or amenity=cafe.

Less of the "we." You may be dissatisfied with those tags, I am not.

> If you are interested, let me share just a few corner cases based on
> the linked shared notes. It would be perfectly normal for a sit-in
> cukrászda to not offer coffee or wifi at all or lack table service.

 Some cafes in the UK lack table service.  Maybe somebody brings your
order over after you've placed your order at the counter, maybe your order
is announced when it is ready and you have to get it yourself, maybe
you sit down and somebody asks what you want then brings it over
when it is ready.

In contrast, a data user would rightly have the expectation of finding a
> somewhat wide variety of coffee at a cafe returned in the search
> results.
>

I would not.  You're using the French etymology on a term that is
British English.  Cafes sell more than coffee.  Cafes may have
only one, rather inferior, brand of coffee.

>
> Also, how would you customize the map icon? The cuisine tag within a
> cafe could contain a lot of elements. What would differentiate between
> a cukrászda and a cafe for either the renderer or a search engine,
> *pastry*?

What is the difference between the icons for an Indian restaurant, a
Chinese restaurant, and a French restaurant?  The cuisines are
very different.  And then there are fusion cuisines.

As described in the shared notes, it's common for a cafe to
> serve at least one kind of sliced cake along with coffee (possibly
> purchased from either a cukrászda or from some industrial source). A
> cukrászda that is artisan can by default accept custom orders for
> cakes, while that can't be said about a cafe. How would I find this on
> a map if the two were combined?
>

Add a craft=patisserie node.  I expect that a tourist in a strange town
looking
for a pastry shop because of hunger pangs would be more than happy to make
a 30-minute side trip to go to an artisan pastry shop for a custom order
(and
wait however long it takes to bake it).  Such a devotee would be happy to
write a cartographic style to ensure that two very close nodes render,
because pastry shops are so VERY important in the scheme of things.

OSM isn't a gazetteer.  It's not a search engine.  It's not the Yellow
Pages.
It has technical limitations.

>
> After consulting the OSM wiki and Wikipedia, I had to conclude that
> "pastry" is too narrow of a category to be useful for us. As
> previously mentioned, a cukrászda also carries a wide variety of
> desserts, including sugar confections, flour confections (pastry),
> non-dough based desserts, liquid desserts, ice cream, salty snacks and
> possibly also sandwiches.

But not all cukrászda will carry all of those things.  So we obviously need
a separate tag for each of the many combinations.  Or maybe we could
just have shop=pastry and add cuisine=* as required for things that
aren't pastries.

If during the discussion we find an overlap
> in meaning with shop=pastry, at the very least, we should introduce a
> new tag (e.g., shop=dessert) and specify the kind of desserts it
> carries (sugar confections, pastry, cake, ice cream, etc.) and
> deprecate the redundant old top level tags.
>

Except we already have tags for sweet shops, ice cream shops, and
pastry shops.  You now propose lumping those all together in one
top-level tag (which won't happen because there are too many to
change) yet refuse to use shop=pastry with sub-tags because you
think it is not specific enough.  Goldilocks didn't enounter a
bowl of porridge that was simultaneously too hot and too cold
yet you deem shop=pastry too specific yet not specific
enough.

>
> In Hungary, shops selling non-artisan sugar confections ("sweets
> shops") is rare. Ones selling mass-produced, non-customizable pastries
> even more so (if they exist at all other than in supermarkets). On the
> other hand, even smallish villages can support a fancy cukrászda
> producing various desserts along with a few more bakeries that also
> produce simple sweet pastry. Around here, a bakery producing sweet
> pastry (pretty common) is not the same as a cukrászda.
>

Somebody called bkil proposed lumping all types of desserts under a
single tag.  Maybe you should discuss this with him.  He thinks bakeries
producing sweet pastry and cukrászda should be lumped together, along
with shops selling ice cream and salty snacks.  Maybe you could spend
time off-list arguing with bkil until you reach some sort of logically-
consistent agreement.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

sent from a phone

>> On 28. Jun 2020, at 15:58, bkil  wrote:
> We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
> shop=pastry or amenity=cafe.

today I think I would prefer a generic descriptive term as the main tag (e.g. 
shop=sweet_bakery) and have subtags for specilizations or product categories.

Another (general) issue are “mixed” places like “Bäckerei Konditorei Cafe” or 
“Bar Pasticceria Gelateria Tavola Calda”, as the individual classes often tend 
to use the same key.
One way I am paying tribute to these is the 
restaurant:type:it tag, which gets multiple (slightly “normalized”) values in 
the local (here Italian) language:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait

These can be quite useful for people speaking the language and familiar with 
the local expectations, and might eventually be transformed to more specific 
detail tags later (not holding my breath for it).

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

2020-06-28 Thread bkil

Thank you for your additions regarding Italy and Germany, I've copied
your insights into the document.

So to summarize, we started to debate this around 2011 before you
introduced shop=pastry and then had some more discussions in 2016,
2018 and this year too. We've also experienced the shop=confectionery
vs. shop=pastry debate back then and ever since had been wondering
what the exact definition of shop=pastry is around the world.

We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
shop=pastry or amenity=cafe. I think we would need some more input
from other nations before we can proceed to discuss the recommended
tagging. It would be great if we could only focus on each nation's
specialty in this thread and not be carried away by existing tagging
conventions.

If you are interested, let me share just a few corner cases based on
the linked shared notes. It would be perfectly normal for a sit-in
cukrászda to not offer coffee or wifi at all or lack table service. In
contrast, a data user would rightly have the expectation of finding a
somewhat wide variety of coffee at a cafe returned in the search
results.

Also, how would you customize the map icon? The cuisine tag within a
cafe could contain a lot of elements. What would differentiate between
a cukrászda and a cafe for either the renderer or a search engine,
*pastry*? As described in the shared notes, it's common for a cafe to
serve at least one kind of sliced cake along with coffee (possibly
purchased from either a cukrászda or from some industrial source). A
cukrászda that is artisan can by default accept custom orders for
cakes, while that can't be said about a cafe. How would I find this on
a map if the two were combined?

After consulting the OSM wiki and Wikipedia, I had to conclude that
"pastry" is too narrow of a category to be useful for us. As
previously mentioned, a cukrászda also carries a wide variety of
desserts, including sugar confections, flour confections (pastry),
non-dough based desserts, liquid desserts, ice cream, salty snacks and
possibly also sandwiches. If during the discussion we find an overlap
in meaning with shop=pastry, at the very least, we should introduce a
new tag (e.g., shop=dessert) and specify the kind of desserts it
carries (sugar confections, pastry, cake, ice cream, etc.) and
deprecate the redundant old top level tags.

In Hungary, shops selling non-artisan sugar confections ("sweets
shops") is rare. Ones selling mass-produced, non-customizable pastries
even more so (if they exist at all other than in supermarkets). On the
other hand, even smallish villages can support a fancy cukrászda
producing various desserts along with a few more bakeries that also
produce simple sweet pastry. Around here, a bakery producing sweet
pastry (pretty common) is not the same as a cukrászda.

We list many more arguments in the linked document if you are interested.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:02 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> FWIW, the tag shop=pastry was introduced for these, because the tag that was 
> in use up to then was shop=confectionery where the term seemed to describe a 
> sweets shop. Now, pastry is probably a term which covers just a part of all 
> these, literally. In general, it may also be a question what you want to 
> describe, naturally, all of these sell different kind of products, according 
> to the local tradition.
>
> Generally, in Italy the term is "pasticceria" and also "gelateria" (artisanal 
> ice cream maker), as the latter are officially considered a subtype of 
> "pasticceria" (you can also often/sometimes find pasticcerias which sell 
> icecream they produce during the summer, although many gelateria shops will 
> only sell ice cream, or might additionally sell sweet bakery which includes 
> ice cream, e.g. semifreddo (half cold), ice cream sandwiches, etc..
>
> Sometimes, there are mixed places, which sell both, bread and salty bakery 
> together with sweet bakery (typical in Germany), and there are of course also 
> huge differences in the types of products ("simpler sweet bakery will often 
> be present in a pasticceria, while more sophisticated products may be more 
> probably limited to "pure" pasticcerias (or Konditorei in Germany). A normal 
> "bakery" in Germany will usually also sell simple sweet bakery products 
> ("Kuchen"), while a "Bäckerei Konditorei" will more probably have a bigger 
> selection and more elaborated "Torten".
>
> One distinction (subtag / property) could be whether they have products with 
> cream, or more stuff like cookies.
>
> Furthermore, there are also pasticcerias which specialize in regional 
> products (e.g. pastry from Sicily, also outside of Sicily in other places, 
> e.g. Cannoli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannoli e Cassata 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassata and cassatina: 
> https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.qhDcBUpJMzoRMX2LNVi51wHaE-%26pid%3DApi=1
>
> Also in Germany (and

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

FWIW, the tag shop=pastry was introduced for these, because the tag that
was in use up to then was shop=confectionery where the term seemed to
describe a sweets shop. Now, pastry is probably a term which covers just a
part of all these, literally. In general, it may also be a question what
you want to describe, naturally, all of these sell different kind of
products, according to the local tradition.

Generally, in Italy the term is "pasticceria" and also "gelateria"
(artisanal ice cream maker), as the latter are officially considered a
subtype of "pasticceria" (you can also often/sometimes find pasticcerias
which sell icecream they produce during the summer, although many gelateria
shops will only sell ice cream, or might additionally sell sweet bakery
which includes ice cream, e.g. semifreddo (half cold), ice cream
sandwiches, etc..

Sometimes, there are mixed places, which sell both, bread and salty bakery
together with sweet bakery (typical in Germany), and there are of course
also huge differences in the types of products ("simpler sweet bakery will
often be present in a pasticceria, while more sophisticated products may be
more probably limited to "pure" pasticcerias (or Konditorei in Germany). A
normal "bakery" in Germany will usually also sell simple sweet bakery
products ("Kuchen"), while a "Bäckerei Konditorei" will more probably have
a bigger selection and more elaborated "Torten".

One distinction (subtag / property) could be whether they have products
with cream, or more stuff like cookies.

Furthermore, there are also pasticcerias which specialize in regional
products (e.g. pastry from Sicily, also outside of Sicily in other places,
e.g. Cannoli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannoli e Cassata
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassata and cassatina:
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.qhDcBUpJMzoRMX2LNVi51wHaE-%26pid%3DApi=1

Also in Germany (and probably elsewhere), you will find different kind of
products according to the region.

Another type of sweet bakery products, from the middle east and north
africa. Turkey and central asia, but which can also be found in Central
Europe quite often, is Baklava: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baklava

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...