subject:"\[Tagging\] Drain vs. ditch"

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 16:49:54 +0100
From: Peter Elderson 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

Who is to decide?

Mvg Peter Elderson

Op 2 feb. 2019 om 15:38 heeft EthnicFood IsGreat  
het volgende geschreven:

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:22:20 +0100
From: Hufkratzer 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
not such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it
requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
immense that it is worth the effort?

[...]

This goes to the very core of the tagging policy of OSM.  The current state of OSM tags 
is a screwed up mess.  Because we are "prohibited" from going back in time and 
correcting bad tagging decisions that were made in the past, we are stuck with trying to 
shoehorn new tag definitions into a chaotic, disorganized system. The way I see it, if we 
were allowed to conduct mass edits to revise poorly-planned tagging choices, we would 
save ourselves a lot of trouble in the long run.  It would be painful at first, adjusting 
to the changes, but I think it would be worth it.  Don't we all agree that if we were 
starting all over from scratch, we would give a lot more thought to tagging?

Mark

Ha ha, that would be the topic of a whole other discussion.

Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Markus

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 14:23, Hufkratzer  wrote:
>
> If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
> waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
> not such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it
> requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
> presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
> using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
> immense that it is worth the effort?

It were more logical and would likely lead to less confusion and less
discussions. While i'm unsure that a mass edit is worth it, i see no
problem in introducing waterway=ditch + usage=drainage as an
alternative way to tag drainage ditches. (If it is successful,
waterway=drain would disappear gradually.) Note that
usage=irrigation;drainage seems to be required anyway for ditches that
are used for both irrigation and drainage.

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

Not all ditches can be called drains and not all drains can be called
ditches and there is some overlapping in their meanings which causes the
confusion.

I see three ways to go:
1. Define the basic meanings from dictionaries and let users decide on
which tag to use, similar to Peter Elderson's version from the preceding
post.
2. Allow some deviation from dictionary definitions to make a clear cut
between the two. This is similar to how "stream" is currently restricted to
the maning of "you can jump over it".
3. Introduce some abstract notions with clear definitions of each
sub-notion. Similar to highway=track + tracktype=grade1,grade2 etc. or
boundary=administrative + admin_level=2,3 etc.

Cheers,
Eugene

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 18:48, Peter Elderson :

> If there is a drain worth mapping, I will map it as a drain.
>
> If the drain has the form of a ditch and I can see its only function is to
> be a drain, I will map a drain. Size and lining may be indicators, not
> definers.
>
> If a ditch has unclear function or multiple functions, I will map a ditch.
> If I think it’s worth mapping.
>
> I will not systematically retag drains to ditches unless the national
> community decides to do so. Automated edits: no way.
>
> Mvg Peter Elderson
>
> > Op 2 feb. 2019 om 14:22 heeft Hufkratzer  het
> volgende geschreven:
> >
> > If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
> waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is not
> such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it requires a
> proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the presets, perhaps
> a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of using waterway=ditch
> + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so immense that it is worth the
> effort?
> >
> > Am 02.02.2019 13:58, schrieb nwastra:
> >> +1
> >>
> >> N
> >>
>  On 2 Feb 2019, at 10:39 pm, Markus  wrote:
> 
>  On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 11:21, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> 
>  Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.
> 
>  Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of
> overloading English words with meanings they do not have in any dictionary
> (be it AmE, BrE, CaE, or whatever).
> 
>  Both the "ditch" and "drain" words can be used to describe certain
> features in English. The difference is essentially an etymological one,
> with one related to the process of excavation (dig -> ditch) and the other
> to the function of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).
> 
>  If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we
> should do it explicitly through a correct data model that takes into
> consideration the particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want
> to communicate the information that a (small) waterway is lined with
> concrete? Just say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or
> lining=*. We want to communicate the information that a (small) waterway is
> used to carry waste water away? Once again, let's say that with an
> appropriate tag, like e.g. usage=* (please ignore if the specific tags I
> put in the examples are not of your liking: not the point here, let's
> discuss that later...).
> 
>  Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the
> common language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in
> information.
> >>> + 1
> >>>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Peter Elderson

Who is to decide?

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 2 feb. 2019 om 15:38 heeft EthnicFood IsGreat 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
>> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:22:20 +0100
>> From: Hufkratzer 
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
>> 
>> 
>> If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
>> waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
>> not such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it
>> requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
>> presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
>> using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
>> immense that it is worth the effort?
>> 
>> [...]
> 
> 
> This goes to the very core of the tagging policy of OSM.  The current state 
> of OSM tags is a screwed up mess.  Because we are "prohibited" from going 
> back in time and correcting bad tagging decisions that were made in the past, 
> we are stuck with trying to shoehorn new tag definitions into a chaotic, 
> disorganized system. The way I see it, if we were allowed to conduct mass 
> edits to revise poorly-planned tagging choices, we would save ourselves a lot 
> of trouble in the long run.  It would be painful at first, adjusting to the 
> changes, but I think it would be worth it.  Don't we all agree that if we 
> were starting all over from scratch, we would give a lot more thought to 
> tagging?
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Peter Elderson

If there is a drain worth mapping, I will map it as a drain. 

If the drain has the form of a ditch and I can see its only function is to be a 
drain, I will map a drain. Size and lining may be indicators, not definers.

If a ditch has unclear function or multiple functions, I will map a ditch. If I 
think it’s worth mapping.

I will not systematically retag drains to ditches unless the national community 
decides to do so. Automated edits: no way. 

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 2 feb. 2019 om 14:22 heeft Hufkratzer  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing waterway=drain 
> by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is not such an easy 
> task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it requires a proposal with 
> volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who 
> will do all this? Is the advantage of using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage 
> instead of waterway=drain so immense that it is worth the effort?
> 
> Am 02.02.2019 13:58, schrieb nwastra:
>> +1
>> 
>> N
>> 
 On 2 Feb 2019, at 10:39 pm, Markus  wrote:

 On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 11:21, Sergio Manzi  wrote:

 Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.

 Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of overloading 
 English words with meanings they do not have in any dictionary (be it AmE, 
 BrE, CaE, or whatever).

 Both the "ditch" and "drain" words can be used to describe certain 
 features in English. The difference is essentially an etymological one, 
 with one related to the process of excavation (dig -> ditch) and the other 
 to the function of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).

 If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we should 
 do it explicitly through a correct data model that takes into 
 consideration the particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want 
 to communicate the information that a (small) waterway is lined with 
 concrete? Just say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or 
 lining=*. We want to communicate the information that a (small) waterway 
 is used to carry waste water away? Once again, let's say that with an 
 appropriate tag, like e.g. usage=* (please ignore if the specific tags I 
 put in the examples are not of your liking: not the point here, let's 
 discuss that later...).

 Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the common 
 language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in 
 information.
>>> + 1
>>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:22:20 +0100
From: Hufkratzer 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
not such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it
requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
immense that it is worth the effort?

[...]

This goes to the very core of the tagging policy of OSM.  The current 
state of OSM tags is a screwed up mess.  Because we are "prohibited" 
from going back in time and correcting bad tagging decisions that were 
made in the past, we are stuck with trying to shoehorn new tag 
definitions into a chaotic, disorganized system. The way I see it, if we 
were allowed to conduct mass edits to revise poorly-planned tagging 
choices, we would save ourselves a lot of trouble in the long run.  It 
would be painful at first, adjusting to the changes, but I think it 
would be worth it.  Don't we all agree that if we were starting all over 
from scratch, we would give a lot more thought to tagging?

Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 11:20:01 +0100
From: Sergio Manzi 
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.

Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of overloading 
English words with meanings they do not have in *any *dictionary (be it AmE, 
BrE, CaE, or whatever).

Both the "ditch" and "drain" words *can *be used to describe certain features in 
English. The difference is essentially an etymological one, with one related to the *process *of 
excavation (dig -> ditch) and the other to the *function *of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).

If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we should do 
it explicitly through a *correct data model* that takes into consideration the 
particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want to communicate the 
information that a (small) waterway is lined with concrete? Just say that with 
an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or lining=*. We want to communicate the 
information that a (small) waterway is used to carry waste water away? Once 
again, let's say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. usage=* (/please 
ignore if the specific tags I put in the examples are not of your liking: not 
the point here, let's discuss that later.../).

Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the common 
language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in information.

Sergio

[...]

I tend to agree.  Sometimes I feel these endless debates on trying to decide 
the meaning of tags is like reinventing the wheel (reinventing the definition).

Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

I have no objection to remove the lined/unlined characteristic from the
definitions but am not sure about leaving just one tag for both "ditch" and
"drain" notions.
Here are some examples to consider.

1. Industrial drains are not always digged out. The channal in the ground
may get formed by the liquid itself discharged from a pipe or culvert.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/MFC9WA/the-industrial-wastewater-is-discharged-from-the-pipe-MFC9WA.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2TCd0OHetNo/WzYi3_5n1lI/EiE/5V05A6jLL9Q_BssVLQhX7csbReaqBbbTgCLcBGAs/s320/Liquid%2BWaste%2BManagement.jpg

2. Shallow lined storm channals along paths and road are normally called
"drains", not "ditches".
https://thesquirrelnutwork.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/img_1578_2.jpg
http://sussexcountyconcrete.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IMG_0216-1080x810.jpg

3. Storm water culverts are also normally called "drains", not "ditches".
http://coastalgunite.com/wp-content/uploads/project-congressional-towers0.jpg
https://www.theurbanexplorer.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/bourne-valley-culvert-bournemouth-dorset-10_8465421336_o-1400x937.jpg

On the other hand, if industrial discharge is running along a digged out
channal (lined or unlined) then you can call it a "ditch".
If a storm channal (lined or unlined) is deep enough to step into it, you
can call it a ditch as well.

Cheers,
Eugene

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 16:23, Hufkratzer :

> If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
> waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
> not such an easy task.  We already have 800k drains. I assume it
> requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
> presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
> using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
> immense that it is worth the effort?
>
> Am 02.02.2019 13:58, schrieb nwastra:
> > +1
> >
> > N
> >
> >> On 2 Feb 2019, at 10:39 pm, Markus  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 11:21, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.
> >>>
> >>> Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of
> overloading English words with meanings they do not have in any dictionary
> (be it AmE, BrE, CaE, or whatever).
> >>>
> >>> Both the "ditch" and "drain" words can be used to describe certain
> features in English. The difference is essentially an etymological one,
> with one related to the process of excavation (dig -> ditch) and the other
> to the function of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).
> >>>
> >>> If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we
> should do it explicitly through a correct data model that takes into
> consideration the particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want
> to communicate the information that a (small) waterway is lined with
> concrete? Just say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or
> lining=*. We want to communicate the information that a (small) waterway is
> used to carry waste water away? Once again, let's say that with an
> appropriate tag, like e.g. usage=* (please ignore if the specific tags I
> put in the examples are not of your liking: not the point here, let's
> discuss that later...).
> >>>
> >>> Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the
> common language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in
> information.
> >> + 1
> >>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 02:07:00 +0300
From: Eugene Podshivalov 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

The direct images got blocked. So here are the links.

Drainage ditches:
https://ak2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/32964022/thumb/12.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Drainage_Ditch_at_New_Eskham_Farm_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1170959.jpg

Drains:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Lake_tahoe_storm_drain_el_dorado_beach_2.jpg
http://councillordiane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/stormdrain.jpg
http://mechanicsburgborough.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/STORMSEWER.jpg

[...]

I would not call picture #4 a drain.  Maybe in a very general sense.  
The part carrying the water is more specifically called a "gutter" (at 
least in the US), and the structure the water is draining into is called 
an "inlet."  And I would call picture #5 a "culvert."  There is already 
an established tag for that.

Mark

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If we were discussing a proposal I would agree, but replacing
waterway=drain by waterway=ditch + usage=drainage or sth. like that is
not such an easy task. We already have 800k drains. I assume it
requires a proposal with volting to deprecate drain, adaption of the
presets, perhaps a mass edit. Who will do all this? Is the advantage of
using waterway=ditch + usage=drainage instead of waterway=drain so
immense that it is worth the effort?

Am 02.02.2019 13:58, schrieb nwastra:

On 2 Feb 2019, at 10:39 pm, Markus wrote:

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 11:21, Sergio Manzi wrote:

Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.

Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of overloading
English words with meanings they do not have in any dictionary (be it AmE, BrE,
CaE, or whatever).

Both the "ditch" and "drain" words can be used to describe certain features in
English. The difference is essentially an etymological one, with one related to the process of excavation
(dig -> ditch) and the other to the function of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).

If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we should do
it explicitly through a correct data model that takes into consideration the
particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want to communicate the
information that a (small) waterway is lined with concrete? Just say that with
an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or lining=*. We want to communicate the
information that a (small) waterway is used to carry waste water away? Once
again, let's say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. usage=* (please ignore
if the specific tags I put in the examples are not of your liking: not the
point here, let's discuss that later...).

Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the common
language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in information.

+ 1

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread nwastra

+1

N

> On 2 Feb 2019, at 10:39 pm, Markus  wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 11:21, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>> 
>> Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.
>> 
>> Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of overloading 
>> English words with meanings they do not have in any dictionary (be it AmE, 
>> BrE, CaE, or whatever).
>> 
>> Both the "ditch" and "drain" words can be used to describe certain features 
>> in English. The difference is essentially an etymological one, with one 
>> related to the process of excavation (dig -> ditch) and the other to the 
>> function of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).
>> 
>> If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we should 
>> do it explicitly through a correct data model that takes into consideration 
>> the particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want to communicate 
>> the information that a (small) waterway is lined with concrete? Just say 
>> that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or lining=*. We want to 
>> communicate the information that a (small) waterway is used to carry waste 
>> water away? Once again, let's say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. 
>> usage=* (please ignore if the specific tags I put in the examples are not of 
>> your liking: not the point here, let's discuss that later...).
>> 
>> Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the common 
>> language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in information.
> 
> + 1
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Markus

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 at 11:21, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
> Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.
>
> Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of overloading 
> English words with meanings they do not have in any dictionary (be it AmE, 
> BrE, CaE, or whatever).
>
> Both the "ditch" and "drain" words can be used to describe certain features 
> in English. The difference is essentially an etymological one, with one 
> related to the process of excavation (dig -> ditch) and the other to the 
> function of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).
>
> If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we should do 
> it explicitly through a correct data model that takes into consideration the 
> particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want to communicate the 
> information that a (small) waterway is lined with concrete? Just say that 
> with an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or lining=*. We want to 
> communicate the information that a (small) waterway is used to carry waste 
> water away? Once again, let's say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. 
> usage=* (please ignore if the specific tags I put in the examples are not of 
> your liking: not the point here, let's discuss that later...).
>
> Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the common 
> language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in information.

+ 1

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread ael via Tagging

On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 10:22:30PM +, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> 
> > If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined
> > minor waterways (*and I'm not objecting to that*), I guess the best
> > option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)
> >
> As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction
> between ditches
> and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so
> we don't have
> to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are
> already
> established.
 +1


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread ael via Tagging

On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 12:22:01AM -0800, Mark Wagner wrote:
> 
> My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary has about a page of
> definitions for "ditch" and "drain", and not a hint that either of them
> needs to be lined.
 +1


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Sergio Manzi

Thank-you for confirming that, Mark.

Personally I think we, in OSM, should stop with this folly of overloading 
English words with meanings they do not have in *any *dictionary (be it AmE, 
BrE, CaE, or whatever).

Both the "ditch" and "drain" words *can *be used to describe certain features 
in English. The difference is essentially an etymological one, with one related 
to the *process *of excavation (dig -> ditch) and the other to the *function 
*of carrying liquids away (dry -> drain).

If we want to precisely map certain characteristics of a feature we should do 
it explicitly through a *correct data model* that takes into consideration the 
particular aspect we are trying to communicate. We want to communicate the 
information that a (small) waterway is lined with concrete? Just say that with 
an appropriate tag, like e.g. lined=*, or lining=*. We want to communicate the 
information that a (small) waterway is used to carry waste water away? Once 
again, let's say that with an appropriate tag, like e.g. usage=* (/please 
ignore if the specific tags I put in the examples are not of your liking: not 
the point here, let's discuss that later.../).

Arbitrarily overloading words with meanings they do not have in the common 
language is just a perfect way to Babel, that is a reduction in information.

Sergio

On 2019-02-02 09:22, Mark Wagner wrote:
> My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary has about a page of
> definitions for "ditch" and "drain", and not a hint that either of them
> needs to be lined.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

There are two cases when I'm in doubt when choosing between "drainage
ditch" and "drain".

1.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Lake_tahoe_storm_drain_el_dorado_beach_2.jpg
I would call the pipe a "drain", but is the channal in the ground carrying
industrial discharge after the pipe a ditch or a drain?

2. The storm water channals along roads and paths in pupulated places are
usually lined, which let's you easily call them "drains".
http://councillordiane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/stormdrain.jpg
http://www.roadex.org/wp-content/uploads/elearning/drainage/4/431b.jpg
But the strom water channals along roads and paths in unpopulated places
are usually unlined. Whould you call them "ditches" or "drais"?
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/98-015f6.jpg
https://www.roadex.org/wp-content/uploads/elearning/drainage/4/411.jpg
http://alphasoil.com/v/alphasoil/content/e197/e662/englishKoffer-Zeichnungschotter-strasse-im-querschnittklein_RU.jpg

Cheers,
Eugene

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 11:25, Mark Wagner :

>
> My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary has about a page of
> definitions for "ditch" and "drain", and not a hint that either of them
> needs to be lined.
>
> --
> Mark
>
> On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 01:28:10 +0100
> Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
> > I know, that's why I asked for a good one...
> >
> > On 2019-02-02 01:23, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> > > Dictionary.com usually provides definitions in American English, so
> > > it wouldn’t be a good source.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM Sergio Manzi  > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined
> > > ditch" or in any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I
> > > tried and I failed.
> > >
> > > Best I found is in dictionary.com   that
> > > (/under /"/Physical Geography/") define it as
> > >
> > >  1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
> > >  2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of
> > > water.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi  > >> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Paul
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-02 Thread Mark Wagner


My copy of the Oxford English Dictionary has about a page of
definitions for "ditch" and "drain", and not a hint that either of them
needs to be lined.

-- 
Mark

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019 01:28:10 +0100
Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I know, that's why I asked for a good one...
> 
> On 2019-02-02 01:23, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> > Dictionary.com usually provides definitions in American English, so
> > it wouldn’t be a good source.
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM Sergio Manzi  > > wrote:
> >
> > Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined
> > ditch" or in any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I
> > tried and I failed.
> >
> > Best I found is in dictionary.com   that
> > (/under /"/Physical Geography/") define it as
> >
> >  1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
> >  2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of
> > water.
> >
> >
> > On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:  
> >> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
> >>
> >>
> >> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Paul
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

I know, that's why I asked for a good one...

On 2019-02-02 01:23, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Dictionary.com usually provides definitions in American English, so it 
> wouldn’t be a good source.
>
> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM Sergio Manzi  > wrote:
>
> Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in 
> any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.
>
> Best I found is in dictionary.com   that (/under 
> /"/Physical Geography/") define it as
>
>  1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
>  2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.
>
>
> On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi > > wrote:
>>
>> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>>
>>
>> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
>>
>> -- 
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-01 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

Dictionary.com usually provides definitions in American English, so it
wouldn’t be a good source.

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 8:35 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in
> any way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.
>
> Best I found is in dictionary.com  that (*under *"*Physical Geography*")
> define it as
>
>1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
>2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.
>
>
> On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
>> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>>
>
> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

Please point me to a dictionary defining "drain" as a "lined ditch" or in any 
way stating that a drain must be lined, because I tried and I failed.

Best I found is in dictionary.com  that (/under /"/Physical Geography/") define 
it as

 1. an artificial watercourse, as a ditch or trench.
 2. a natural watercourse modified to increase its flow of water.

On 2019-02-01 23:46, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> 
> wrote:
>
> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>
>
> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
>
> -- 
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-01 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

The direct images got blocked. So here are the links.

Drainage ditches:
https://ak2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/32964022/thumb/12.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Drainage_Ditch_at_New_Eskham_Farm_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1170959.jpg

Drains:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Lake_tahoe_storm_drain_el_dorado_beach_2.jpg
http://councillordiane.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/stormdrain.jpg
http://mechanicsburgborough.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/STORMSEWER.jpg

Note that drains are expected to be, but are not always lined.

Cheers,
Eugene

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 01:47, Paul Allen :

> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
>> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>>
>
> Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?
>

Ditch.   Because, physically, that's what it is.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

Right in these days you can read in the Italian newspapers of an industry 
having contaminated with industrial sewage an area inhabited by 300.000...

And let's not get started with what we /"westerns" /normally call "the third 
world"...

So, how do you tag drains which are not lined?


On 2019-02-01 23:34, Paul Allen wrote:
> Then again, I would hope an industrial drain would be lined.


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:37, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:

> Here are some pictures to make the difference between drainage ditches and
> drain clear.
> Drainage ditches:
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
>
> Drains
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
>

They all look the same to me.

I think the mailing list filters out attachments.  You'll have to provide
links.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-01 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

Here are some pictures to make the difference between drainage ditches and
drain clear.
Drainage ditches:
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]

Drains
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]

Cheers,
Eugene

сб, 2 февр. 2019 г. в 01:29, Sergio Manzi :

> I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all
> drains (*e.g. industrial*) of the world being lined?
> On 2019-02-01 23:22, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
>> If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined
>> minor waterways (*and I'm not objecting to that*), I guess the best
>> option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)
>>
> As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction
> between ditches
> and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so
> we don't have
> to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are
> already
> established.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:29, Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all
> drains (*e.g. industrial*) of the world being lined?
>
I wouldn't bet on that one.  However, OSM uses British English terminology.

Then again, I would hope an industrial drain would be lined.  I'm not too
worried about rainwater
or the drainage from fields leaking onto other land.  Wastewater from
industrial processes would
be another matter.

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

I'm pretty sure that's the case in UK, but are you willing to bet on all drains 
(/e.g. industrial/) of the world being lined?

On 2019-02-01 23:22, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> 
> wrote:
>
> If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined 
> minor waterways (/and I'm not objecting to that/), I guess the best option 
> would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)
>
> As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction between 
> ditches
> and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so we 
> don't have
> to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are 
> already
> established.
>
> -- 
> Paul


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 22:09, Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined
> minor waterways (*and I'm not objecting to that*), I guess the best
> option would be to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)
>
As I understand it, Ordnance Survey maps in the UK make a distinction
between ditches
and drains.  Of course, printed maps don't have the luxury of sub-tags, so
we don't have
to use ditch and drain just because OS does.  However, ditch and drain are
already
established.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

If you think it is important to differentiate between lined vs. unlined minor 
waterways (/and I'm not objecting to that/), I guess the best option would be 
to use a specific tag (lined=* ?)

IMHO relying on the tagger knowledge of the OSM dictionary semantic subtleties 
(/which sometimes happen to collide with other English dictionaries/) is a bit 
too optimistic.

Sergio

On 2019-02-01 22:50, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 11:51, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. 
> So why have a tag 'drain'?
>
>
> Really only to differentiate between lined & unlined, which I /think/ may be 
> important / needed?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-01 Thread Peter Elderson

To map drains that are not ditches?

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 1 feb. 2019 om 02:50 heeft Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So 
> why have a tag 'drain'?

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-01 Thread Hufkratzer


On 01.02.2019 02:50 Warin wrote:

It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a
'drain'. So why have a tag 'drain'?


Only if the water comes from wet land, not when it is industrial discharge
(compare
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042543.html )


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-01 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 11:51, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So
> why have a tag 'drain'?
>

Really only to differentiate between lined & unlined, which I *think* may
be important / needed?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-01 Thread Markus

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 02:51, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. So 
> why have a tag 'drain'?

I wouldn't oppose.

> The only differences I have between canal and the other things is large verse 
> small and usefull quantity.
> Rather subjective, not a objective measurement. If the differences as so 
> arbitrary why distinguish between them at all?

It's not just size, it's also conveyance vs direct distribution or
collection, similar to power=line vs power=minor_line.

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-01 Thread Markus

Ciao Sergio,

On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 23:46, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
> My only marginal objection is for canal: why don't you ditch (pun 
> intended...) the "used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power 
> generation, irrigation or land drainage purposes" clause?
>
> Are there any other "Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) 
> waterways" that should not be considered canals?
>
> My concern is that somewhere in the world there could be a canal not built 
> for any of those purposes and somebody could object to call it "a canal".

I would leave the canal uses (transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage) for clarification – otherwise
waterway=canal were again mainly differentiated form
waterway=ditch/drain by size, which we wanted to avoid because it is
arbitrary. Possible other canal uses can still be added later.

> Also isn't "land drainage" potentially in contradiction with "useful water"?

Yes, you're right, *useful* should be removed.

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-31 Thread Warin

It appears in the descriptions that a 'ditch' can be used as a 'drain'. 
So why have a tag 'drain'?


The only differences I have between canal and the other things is large 
verse small and usefull quantity.
Rather subjective, not a objective measurement. If the differences as so 
arbitrary why distinguish between them at all?


On 01/02/19 09:45, Sergio Manzi wrote:


Yes, great descriptions!

My only marginal objection is for canal: why don't you ditch (pun 
intended...) the "/used to carry useful water for transportation, 
hydro-power generation, //irrigation or land drainage purposes/" clause?


Are there any other "/Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe 
flow) waterways/" that should *not *be considered canals?


My concern is that somewhere in the world there could be a canal not 
built for any of those purposes and somebody could object to call it 
"a canal".


Also isn't "land drainage" potentially in contradiction with "useful 
water"?


Cheers,

Sergio


On 2019-01-31 23:34, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:

Hi Markus,
I find your amendments great.

Cheers,
Eugene

чт, 31 янв. 2019 г. в 20:29, Markus >:


Hi Eugene

Thanks for your summary! [^1] I'm in favour of the proposed
definitions and would welcome if the clarifications regarding
size you
made here [^2] were included in the definitions, like for example
(*additions*, ~~deletions~~):

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power
generation,
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
for small*er* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~ channels *that directly
distribute water to or collect it form the land*. Consider using
waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways *used to directly
distribute water to dry land (for irrigation) or collect water from
wet land (for drainage)* ~~used for irrigating dry land or draining
wet land~~. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning
points
or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider
using waterway=canal for large*r* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~
channels *that convey water from or to ditches*. Consider using
waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

[^1]:

[^2]:


Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-31 Thread Sergio Manzi

Yes, great descriptions!

My only marginal objection is for canal: why don't you ditch (pun intended...) 
the "/used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, 
//irrigation or land drainage purposes/" clause?

Are there any other "/Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) 
waterways/" that should *not *be considered canals?

My concern is that somewhere in the world there could be a canal not built for 
any of those purposes and somebody could object to call it "a canal".

Also isn't "land drainage" potentially in contradiction with "useful water"?

Cheers,

Sergio


On 2019-01-31 23:34, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> Hi Markus,
> I find your amendments great.
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene
>
> чт, 31 янв. 2019 г. в 20:29, Markus  >:
>
> Hi Eugene
>
> Thanks for your summary! [^1] I'm in favour of the proposed
> definitions and would welcome if the clarifications regarding size you
> made here [^2] were included in the definitions, like for example
> (*additions*, ~~deletions~~):
>
> canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
> used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
> irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
> for small*er* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~ channels *that directly
> distribute water to or collect it form the land*. Consider using
> waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
> channels.
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways *used to directly
> distribute water to dry land (for irrigation) or collect water from
> wet land (for drainage)* ~~used for irrigating dry land or draining
> wet land~~. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
> ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
> them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points
> or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider
> using waterway=canal for large*r* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~
> channels *that convey water from or to ditches*. Consider using
> waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>
> [^1]: 
> 
> [^2]: 
> 
>
> Regards
>
> Markus
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-31 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

Hi Markus,
I find your amendments great.

Cheers,
Eugene

чт, 31 янв. 2019 г. в 20:29, Markus :

> Hi Eugene
>
> Thanks for your summary! [^1] I'm in favour of the proposed
> definitions and would welcome if the clarifications regarding size you
> made here [^2] were included in the definitions, like for example
> (*additions*, ~~deletions~~):
>
> canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
> used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
> irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
> for small*er* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~ channels *that directly
> distribute water to or collect it form the land*. Consider using
> waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
> channels.
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways *used to directly
> distribute water to dry land (for irrigation) or collect water from
> wet land (for drainage)* ~~used for irrigating dry land or draining
> wet land~~. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
> ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
> them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points
> or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider
> using waterway=canal for large*r* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~
> channels *that convey water from or to ditches*. Consider using
> waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>
> [^1]: <
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042543.html
> >
> [^2]: <
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042551.html
> >
>
> Regards
>
> Markus
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-31 Thread Markus

Hi Eugene

Thanks for your summary! [^1] I'm in favour of the proposed
definitions and would welcome if the clarifications regarding size you
made here [^2] were included in the definitions, like for example
(*additions*, ~~deletions~~):

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
for small*er* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~ channels *that directly
distribute water to or collect it form the land*. Consider using
waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways *used to directly
distribute water to dry land (for irrigation) or collect water from
wet land (for drainage)* ~~used for irrigating dry land or draining
wet land~~. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points
or intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider
using waterway=canal for large*r* ~~irrigation or land drainage~~
channels *that convey water from or to ditches*. Consider using
waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

[^1]: 

[^2]: 


Regards

Markus

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[Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-30 Thread severin.menard via Tagging

I would rather add a specific section in the wiki page about width with the 
explanations you just provided to make the point clear once for all.

> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:28:50 +0300
> From: Eugene Podshivalov yauge...@gmail.com
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
> Message-ID:
> CAEPw1JWMFcpquKJzE4Wp4_r4V6F=fovnq7m-dzzjibsvaiu...@mail.gmail.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> There are words in the language which let you distinguish natural waterways
> by size, e.g. brook -> stream -> river.
> The artifical waterways on the contrary are distinguished maily by usage,
> rather than by size:
> canal - carry useful water
> ditch - melioration chanals which are in contact with the land (soak water
> from or into land)
> drain - carry away superfluous liquid (and hence are usually lined).
>
> Canals due to their purpose are usually but not necesserily large, e.g.
> some canals in hydro-power generation can be just a couple of meters wide.
> Drains and ditches again due to their purpose are usually small.
> The only point at which "size" is in the play is when drainage ditches flow
> into a larger channel which eventually carries the water away from a field
> or when a large channel brings water to a field and distributes it between
> irrigation ditches. These large waterways can be called canals probably
> because they get some kind of "useful" connotation.
>
> Maybe we need to delete the "large" and "small" words from the beginning of
> definitions at all?
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-30 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

There are words in the language which let you distinguish natural waterways
by size, e.g. brook -> stream -> river.
The artifical waterways on the contrary are distinguished maily by usage,
rather than by size:
canal - carry useful water
ditch - melioration chanals which are in contact with the land (soak water
from or into land)
drain - carry away superfluous liquid (and hence are usually lined).

Canals due to their purpose are usually but not necesserily large, e.g.
some canals in hydro-power generation can be just a couple of meters wide.
Drains and ditches again due to their purpose are usually small.
The only point at which "size" is in the play is when drainage ditches flow
into a larger channel which eventually carries the water away from a field
or when a large channel brings water to a field and distributes it between
irrigation ditches. These large waterways can be called canals probably
because they get some kind of "useful" connotation.

Maybe we need to delete the "large" and "small" words from the beginning of
definitions at all?

Cheers,
Eugene

ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 16:21, EthnicFood IsGreat :

>
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 13:15:41 +0300
> > From: Eugene Podshivalov 
> > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> >   
> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
> >
> > ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Large means?
> >> Small means?
> >>
> >> To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over
> >> it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.
> >>
> > Drains and ditches can be 0.1 to 5 metres wide. You can hardly step over
> a
> > 2-5 metre wide ditch, can you? Anything greater than that can be called a
> > canal.
> > So I would leave this up to the user to decide on.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Eugene
> >
> >
> > ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:04, Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Those descriptions look good
> >> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.
> >>>
> >>> Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
> >>> Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
> >>> differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry
> industrial
> >>> discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.
> >>>
> >>> It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions
> as
> >>> follows.
> >>>
> >>> canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
> used
> >>> to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
> >>> irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
> >>> small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using
> waterway=drain
> >>> for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
> >>>
> >>> drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with
> concrete
> >>> or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
> >>> industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
> >>> using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet
> land.
> >>> Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.
> >>>
> >>> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry
> land
> >>> or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined,
> drainage
> >>> ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
> them.
> >>> Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
> >>> intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
> >>> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
> >>> using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage
> channels.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Eugene
> >>>
> >>> вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :
> >>>
> >>>> Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> >>>>> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or
> the
> >>>>> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> >>>>> thi

[Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-30 Thread severin.menard via Tagging

Thanks for having wrapped up the many discussions on this topic, I was indeed 
interested by the topic (while non participating for having just a basic 
knowledge of these objects) but did not manage to get the full thread though. I 
would suggest in the future to modify the title of the thread when by adding eg 
[wrap up] or whatever for the list followers to know that the discussion has 
come to this level.
I found Eugene's text great and will translate it into French once there is an 
agreement on it, but I was also wondering what small and large meant. Is there 
a (n official) source backing up the 5m width threshold for a ditch?

Sincerely,

Severin


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
Le mercredi 30 janvier 2019 07:16,  a écrit :

> Send Tagging mailing list submissions to
> tagging@openstreetmap.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Tagging digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1.  Re: fence with wall base (marc marc)
> 2.  Re: Drain vs ditch (Warin)
> 3.  Re: Drain vs ditch (Joseph Eisenberg)
> 4.  Re: Drain vs ditch (Eugene Podshivalov)
>
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:45:44 +
> From: marc marc marc_marc_...@hotmail.com
> To: "tagging@openstreetmap.org" tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] fence with wall base
> Message-ID:
> db6p190mb027987411e63a97259295b24b7...@db6p190mb0279.eurp190.prod.outlook.com
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Le 30.01.19 à 09:41, Jérôme Seigneuret a écrit :
>
> > How can I. edit a wall+fence with height details?
> > barrier=wall;fence
> > 0 is base of the barrier same as building
>
> barrier=fence
> barrier:height=1.50
> barrier:type=chain_link
>
> support=wall
> support:height=0.50
> support:material=masonry
>
> ---------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 21:00:29 +1100
> From: Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
> Message-ID: f9dc0893-d538-73df-4d68-26745c689...@gmail.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Large means?
> Small means?
>
> To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over
> it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.
>
> On 30/01/19 19:56, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> > Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.
> > Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
> > Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
> > differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry
> > industrial discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.
> > It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions
> > as follows.
> > canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
> > used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
> > irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch
> > for small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using
> > waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage
> > channels.
> > drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with
> > concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain
> > water or industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground.
> > Consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain
> > nearby wet land. Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land
> > drainage channels.
> > ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry
> > land or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined,
> > drainage ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the
> > land into them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway
> > turning points or intersections with roads or paths to prevent
> > erosion. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land
> > drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for usually lined
> > superflous liquid drainage channels.
> > Cheers,
> > Eugene
> > вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc  > mailto:marc_marc_...@ho

Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-30 Thread EthnicFood IsGreat

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 13:15:41 +0300
From: Eugene Podshivalov 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

Large means?
Small means?

To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over
it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.

Drains and ditches can be 0.1 to 5 metres wide. You can hardly step over a
2-5 metre wide ditch, can you? Anything greater than that can be called a
canal.
So I would leave this up to the user to decide on.

Cheers,
Eugene

ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:04, Joseph Eisenberg :

Those descriptions look good
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov 
wrote:

Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used
to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain
for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete
or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :

Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :

How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
the subject has generated
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So it sounds like we're using the word "stream" for all natural 
waterways smaller than a river.  This can mean anything from something 
small enough to step across to something several meters across.  Is 
there no other choice of words that can be used to differentiate these 
waterways based on size?  Wouldn't it be desirable for renderers to 
differentiate "major" and "minor" streams differently?  I don't think 
relying on a width tag is a good idea, because it's easier for mappers 
to simply choose between two words to tag one of these waterways rather 
than estimate and assign a width tag.

Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-30 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> Large means?
> Small means?
>
> To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over
> it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.
>
Drains and ditches can be 0.1 to 5 metres wide. You can hardly step over a
2-5 metre wide ditch, can you? Anything greater than that can be called a
canal.
So I would leave this up to the user to decide on.

Cheers,
Eugene


ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:04, Joseph Eisenberg :

> Those descriptions look good
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov 
> wrote:
>
>> Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.
>>
>> Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
>> Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
>> differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
>> discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.
>>
>> It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
>> follows.
>>
>> canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used
>> to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
>> irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
>> small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain
>> for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>>
>> drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete
>> or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
>> industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
>> using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
>> Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.
>>
>> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
>> or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
>> ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
>> Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
>> intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
>> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
>> using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Eugene
>>
>> вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :
>>
>>> Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>>> > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
>>> > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
>>> > this discussion?
>>>
>>> maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
>>> to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
>>> many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
>>> the subject has generated
>>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-30 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

Those descriptions look good
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov 
wrote:

> Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.
>
> Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
> Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
> differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
> discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.
>
> It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
> follows.
>
> canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used
> to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
> irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
> small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain
> for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>
> drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete
> or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
> industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
> using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
> Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
> or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
> ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
> Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
> intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
> using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene
>
> вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :
>
>> Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
>> > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
>> > this discussion?
>>
>> maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
>> to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
>> many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
>> the subject has generated
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-30 Thread Warin

Large means?
Small means?

To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over 
it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.

On 30/01/19 19:56, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:

Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous. 
Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others 
differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry 
industrial discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions 
as follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways 
used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, 
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch 
for small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using 
waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage 
channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with 
concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain 
water or industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. 
Consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain 
nearby wet land. Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land 
drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry 
land or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, 
drainage ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the 
land into them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway 
turning points or intersections with roads or paths to prevent 
erosion. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land 
drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for usually lined 
superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc >:

Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created
or the
> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself
based on
> this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails
that
the subject has generated
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-30 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous. Some
people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to
carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation
or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for small
irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for
small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete or
similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :

> Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
> > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> > this discussion?
>
> maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
> to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
> many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
> the subject has generated
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-29 Thread marc marc

Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the 
> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on 
> this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably 
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that 
the subject has generated
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-29 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the wiki
pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on this
discussion?

Cheers,
Eugene

вс, 27 янв. 2019 г. в 17:22, Paul Allen :

> On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 10:37, Eugene Podshivalov 
> wrote:
>
>> When drain and ditch were originally introduced, was it supposed to
>> differentiate them in size?
>> If you read the current definitions closely you can notice the following:
>>
> [...]
>
> My guess is that this is a practical matter rather than a definitional
> one.  If you need
> a large channel with a lot of water flow (even intermittently) then you're
> probably
> going to line it with concrete.  And if it's a narrow channel with lower
> water flow
> you're probably not going to bother with the concrete.  Particularly if
> it's for drainage
> where you want the groundwater to seep into the channel.
>
> Maybe reword the descrtiptions:  "Typically unlined, smaller" and
> "typically lined, larger."
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-27 Thread Paul Allen

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 10:37, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:

> When drain and ditch were originally introduced, was it supposed to
> differentiate them in size?
> If you read the current definitions closely you can notice the following:
>
[...]

My guess is that this is a practical matter rather than a definitional
one.  If you need
a large channel with a lot of water flow (even intermittently) then you're
probably
going to line it with concrete.  And if it's a narrow channel with lower
water flow
you're probably not going to bother with the concrete.  Particularly if
it's for drainage
where you want the groundwater to seep into the channel.

Maybe reword the descrtiptions:  "Typically unlined, smaller" and
"typically lined, larger."

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-27 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

When drain and ditch were originally introduced, was it supposed to
differentiate them in size?
If you read the current definitions closely you can notice the following:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway
ditch - An *small* artificial free flow waterway used for carrying
superfluous water along paths or roads for drainage purposes.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dditch
See also - waterway=drain: *for larger* artificial waterways used for the
drainage purposes, and typically lined with concrete or similar

Cheers,
Eugene


чт, 24 янв. 2019 г. в 14:57, Peter Elderson :

> Same here. Drains we don't have that much (almost none), but many many
> ditches of all sizes ('sloot') and canals of all sizes ('vaart', 'gracht',
> 'singel').
> They carry and store water to and from the land: the whole system is
> designed to keep ground water levels fixed in dry times as well as wet
> times, no matter how extreme.  So the flow direction is not fixed and the
> waterways are used for land drainage, irrigation, fire brigades, drinking
> water for cattle, boats and canoes, dumping bodies, murder weapons and
> broken bikes, and at times, ice skating. No single dedicated use.
> The consequence of mapping all ditches as ways is that in z19 on OSM carto
> the land look almost water-less, while in z14 the amount of water looks
> much higher than it actually is.
>
>
>
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>
>
> Op do 24 jan. 2019 om 12:24 schreef Eugene Podshivalov  >:
>
>> The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?
>>
>> I daresay there is no way and no need to clarify the meanings of "small"
>> and "large" for artificial waterways. We can leave this up to the user to
>> decide on it.
>> Even the definition of a steam as "you can jump over it" is not really
>> observed. You can jump over a 1-1.5 meter waterway but people are tagging 3
>> meter wide waterways as steams as well because otherwise there would be a
>> big difference between the stream 1-1.5 and river 1.5-10 meter width ranges
>> (waterways greater than 10m can already be mapped with waterbodies, so I
>> don't mention them there).
>>
>> In the place where I live drainage ditches and drains can be from 0.1 to
>> 5 meters wide, and anything greater then that can be called a canal.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Eugene
>>
>> вс, 20 янв. 2019 г. в 01:22, Markus :
>>
>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:40, Eugene Podshivalov 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or
>>> draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined
>>> or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using
>>> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
>>> using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>>>
>>> I would even go one step further and abandon waterway=drain.
>>>
>>> The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-24 Thread Peter Elderson

Same here. Drains we don't have that much (almost none), but many many
ditches of all sizes ('sloot') and canals of all sizes ('vaart', 'gracht',
'singel').
They carry and store water to and from the land: the whole system is
designed to keep ground water levels fixed in dry times as well as wet
times, no matter how extreme.  So the flow direction is not fixed and the
waterways are used for land drainage, irrigation, fire brigades, drinking
water for cattle, boats and canoes, dumping bodies, murder weapons and
broken bikes, and at times, ice skating. No single dedicated use.
The consequence of mapping all ditches as ways is that in z19 on OSM carto
the land look almost water-less, while in z14 the amount of water looks
much higher than it actually is.



Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op do 24 jan. 2019 om 12:24 schreef Eugene Podshivalov :

> The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?
>
> I daresay there is no way and no need to clarify the meanings of "small"
> and "large" for artificial waterways. We can leave this up to the user to
> decide on it.
> Even the definition of a steam as "you can jump over it" is not really
> observed. You can jump over a 1-1.5 meter waterway but people are tagging 3
> meter wide waterways as steams as well because otherwise there would be a
> big difference between the stream 1-1.5 and river 1.5-10 meter width ranges
> (waterways greater than 10m can already be mapped with waterbodies, so I
> don't mention them there).
>
> In the place where I live drainage ditches and drains can be from 0.1 to 5
> meters wide, and anything greater then that can be called a canal.
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene
>
> вс, 20 янв. 2019 г. в 01:22, Markus :
>
>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:40, Eugene Podshivalov 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or
>> draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined
>> or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using
>> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
>> using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>>
>> I would even go one step further and abandon waterway=drain.
>>
>> The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-24 Thread Eugene Podshivalov

>
> The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?

I daresay there is no way and no need to clarify the meanings of "small"
and "large" for artificial waterways. We can leave this up to the user to
decide on it.
Even the definition of a steam as "you can jump over it" is not really
observed. You can jump over a 1-1.5 meter waterway but people are tagging 3
meter wide waterways as steams as well because otherwise there would be a
big difference between the stream 1-1.5 and river 1.5-10 meter width ranges
(waterways greater than 10m can already be mapped with waterbodies, so I
don't mention them there).

In the place where I live drainage ditches and drains can be from 0.1 to 5
meters wide, and anything greater then that can be called a canal.

Cheers,
Eugene

вс, 20 янв. 2019 г. в 01:22, Markus :

> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:40, Eugene Podshivalov 
> wrote:
> >
> > ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or
> draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined
> or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using
> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
> using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>
> I would even go one step further and abandon waterway=drain.
>
> The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?
>
> Regards
>
> Markus
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-01-19 Thread Markus

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:40, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or draining 
> land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or 
> unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using waterway=canal 
> for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain 
> for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

I would even go one step further and abandon waterway=drain.

The question that still remains is: what does "small" and "large" mean?

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-17 Thread EthnicFood IsGreat

Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 22:08:30 +
From: ael 
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 09:45:21PM +, Paul Allen wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 21:24, EthnicFood IsGreat <
ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

   I have been tagging them as drains, because they

are too small to be called a stream, and they are not artificial, so
they are not ditches.  (At least in the OSM sense.)

You appear to be talking about small streams.  Which are, as far as OSM is
concerned, just
streams.  Using either drain or ditch for a natural stream, even a small
one, is tagging for the
renderer.

+1  There is no lower limit on the size of a stream in British English,
although something smaller than say, I don't know, 1O cm, might be
called a "trickle" informally.

Okay ael, Paul, and Joseph, it's clear I have not been applying tags 
using OSM's definitions.  Sorry.

Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-16 Thread ael

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 09:45:21PM +, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 21:24, EthnicFood IsGreat <
> ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>   I have been tagging them as drains, because they
> > are too small to be called a stream, and they are not artificial, so
> > they are not ditches.  (At least in the OSM sense.)
> >
> 
> You appear to be talking about small streams.  Which are, as far as OSM is
> concerned, just
> streams.  Using either drain or ditch for a natural stream, even a small
> one, is tagging for the
> renderer.

+1  There is no lower limit on the size of a stream in British English,
although something smaller than say, I don't know, 1O cm, might be
called a "trickle" informally.


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-16 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

> a stream is small enough to be stepped over

I believe the wiki says a stream is narrow enough that a health adult can
JUMP over it, so about 2 meters wide or less.

There was a proposal to call smaller natural waterways “brooks” if they
were small enough to step over, but this was rejected.

> I have been tagging them as drains, because they
are too small to be called a stream

I believe this is incorrect, if these are natural waterways rather than
man-made drainage features.

Drains and ditches are always man-made.
On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 6:38 AM EthnicFood IsGreat <
ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 13:32:04 -0500
> > From: Kevin Kenny 
> > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> >   
> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:05 PM EthnicFood IsGreat
> >  wrote:
> >> Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
> >> stream?
> > The Wiki says that a stream is small enough to be stepped over, but
> > gives no lower bound.
> >
> > I can't think of many permanent watercourses around here that are
> > small enough to step over. Rock-hop, usually. Sometimes wade. I
> > personally don't switch from 'waterway=stream' to 'waterway=river'
> > until I'm telling myself that I might someday want to map the banks.
> >
> > You can rock-hop https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/21811867291 in a
> > dry season if you're more coordinated than I am (I wound up with boots
> > full of water), but at 30 m across it's still a river. In springtime
> > that crossing is completely impassable.
>
>
> The wiki description of a stream surprises me.  I always thought of a
> stream as something too big to step over.  In the area where I live,
> smaller waterways are sometimes called "ditches" (even if they're
> natural), and sometimes they're called "drains."  There is even such a
> thing as a "legal drain," which carries certain restrictions and
> requirements.
>
> Mark
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-16 Thread Paul Allen

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 21:24, EthnicFood IsGreat <
ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

  I have been tagging them as drains, because they
> are too small to be called a stream, and they are not artificial, so
> they are not ditches.  (At least in the OSM sense.)
>

In the OSM sense both ditches and drains are artificial.   You dig a ditch
in the ground,
hence the term "ditch digging."   Drains are essentially ditches that are
lined with concrete.

You appear to be talking about small streams.  Which are, as far as OSM is
concerned, just
streams.  Using either drain or ditch for a natural stream, even a small
one, is tagging for the
renderer.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 13:32:04 -0500
From: Kevin Kenny 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:05 PM EthnicFood IsGreat
 wrote:

Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
stream?

The Wiki says that a stream is small enough to be stepped over, but
gives no lower bound.

I can't think of many permanent watercourses around here that are
small enough to step over. Rock-hop, usually. Sometimes wade. I
personally don't switch from 'waterway=stream' to 'waterway=river'
until I'm telling myself that I might someday want to map the banks.

You can rock-hop https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/21811867291 in a
dry season if you're more coordinated than I am (I wound up with boots
full of water), but at 30 m across it's still a river. In springtime
that crossing is completely impassable.

The wiki description of a stream surprises me.  I always thought of a 
stream as something too big to step over.  In the area where I live, 
smaller waterways are sometimes called "ditches" (even if they're 
natural), and sometimes they're called "drains."  There is even such a 
thing as a "legal drain," which carries certain restrictions and 
requirements.

Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 18:11:20 +
From: Paul Allen 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 18:05, EthnicFood IsGreat <
ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
stream?

Two possibilities.

1) A stream.

2) Not worth mapping.

Take your pick. :)

--
Paul

Well, call it micromapping if you want, but I've mapped many of these in 
the midwestern US.  I do most of my mapping in the country, and 
sometimes these are the only features to map in a certain area without 
the map being blank.  I have been tagging them as drains, because they 
are too small to be called a stream, and they are not artificial, so 
they are not ditches.  (At least in the OSM sense.)  Many of them start 
out as being just a swale in a farmer's field, where they are usually 
intermittent.  Many of them are named.

Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-16 Thread Kevin Kenny

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 1:05 PM EthnicFood IsGreat
 wrote:
> Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
> stream?

The Wiki says that a stream is small enough to be stepped over, but
gives no lower bound.

I can't think of many permanent watercourses around here that are
small enough to step over. Rock-hop, usually. Sometimes wade. I
personally don't switch from 'waterway=stream' to 'waterway=river'
until I'm telling myself that I might someday want to map the banks.

You can rock-hop https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/21811867291 in a
dry season if you're more coordinated than I am (I wound up with boots
full of water), but at 30 m across it's still a river. In springtime
that crossing is completely impassable.

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 15:38:13 +0300
From: Eugene Podshivalov 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

Can you jump over a drain or ditch? I find the jump over information well
chosen for streams and most important property when actually walking in an
area and trying to find a way through.

In the place where I live drainage ditches are 1-5 meters wide and you can
hardly jump over them. Even if they are 1m wide you would not risk jumping
over them because they are located in wetland and have swampy banks. They
usually have a lot of culverts to cross them over.

Somehow it is not satisfactory to distinguish irrigation from drainage for

lined watercourses on the main level

You are right, irrigation ditches can be lined along their way to a field
but when on a field they may be unlined to let water soak into the land.
Drainage ditches are always unlined because they collect water from land.
Drains are always lined (or should be lined on good terms) because they
carry liquid away without letting it soak into the ground.
If you find the above statements correct (I don't know, may be in other
countries it works differently), then the "lined" characteristic lets you
distingish between drainage ditches and drains easily. The only thing we
need to resolve yet is to let irrigation ditches be linied. Here is how we
can complement the definition of ditch to respect this.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating or
draining land as well as for deviding land. Irrigation ditches can be lined
or unlined, drainage ditches are usually unlined. Consider using
waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
using waterway=drain for lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

PS: I'm not a native English speaker, so probably someone could formulate
it in a more beautiful way.

Cheers, Eugene

[...]

I'm glad your definition does not require ditches be unlined.  In the US 
we have many highway ditches that are unlined, except for the steepest 
part, typically where they empty into a stream. These areas are 
sometimes lined with concrete to prevent erosion. If I were to map one 
of these, I would consider the whole thing a ditch.  I would not 
consider part of it a "drain," simply because it's lined.

Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

2019-01-16 Thread Paul Allen

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 18:05, EthnicFood IsGreat <
ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Then what would you call a natural waterway that is too small to be a
> stream?
>
> Two possibilities.

1) A stream.

2) Not worth mapping.

Take your pick. :)

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch