Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/18/2012 9:15 AM, Anthony wrote: 2012/5/18 Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: If anyone doubts that existing tagging does not match the wiki, see the following examples, all tagged as junction=roundabout by editors other than me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5677217 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/9080282 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 I don't see why the last one doesn't qualify as a roundabout. We are allowing stop signs, right? Look at the yield teeth on the Bing aerial. The north approach has right-of-way over the circle. Ah. I see what you're saying. I also just realized that the first time I looked at this, when I switched to the satellite and street view, I was actually looking at http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/158299144 Which looks like it *is* a roundabout (with stop signs instead of yield indications), but isn't tagged as one. After looking at the right one, I would say that http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 is *absolutely* not a roundabout. Among other problems, the approaches are essentially tangent to the circle. However, if people want to tag it that way, I couldn't be bothered to care any more. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Thu, 2012-05-17 at 18:07 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: If anyone doubts that existing tagging does not match the wiki, see the following examples, all tagged as junction=roundabout by editors other than me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5677217 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/9080282 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 Speaking as a Brit who has held a driving licence for 33 years and have been dealing with roundabouts for all of that time, all 3 look like roundabouts to me, the 2nd is a Hamburger Roundabout. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Hamburger_roundabout.2Fthroughabout.2Fcut-through_roundabout Traffic lights on roundabouts are extremely common, and nobody in the UK would consider them anything but a roundabout. Roundabouts can come in all shapes and sizes. Whilst I cannot think of any that have stop signs, I cannot see why they wouldn't in a country where stop signs are commonly used. Having driven in Canada, the number of stop signs in places I would not have expected them to be did is one of my memories of driving there. Stop signs are quite rare in the UK and are mainly used on blind junctions. Phil ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Some remark on these three examples: They are all so large that there is no technical advantage in tagging them as roundabouts as opposed to just normal roads that happen to be circular. Why do we want to map a junction as roundabout? The main reason is most likely that this way the navigation software can produce the right instructions. Instead of saying: turn right on xxx ring road you woud say entering roundabout and for leaving instead of straight on (twice) , followed by turn right on yyy street it would say leave roundabout on 3rd exit on entering and, possibly, followed by leave roundabout on next exit. This difference is only of importance on roundabouts of smallish dimensions. The three examples are so big that there is enough time for the announcements and, hence, in practice it does not make any difference how you tag them. This argument is valid for the US and the UK. All three examples would not be roundabouts in Germany or Italy, where the use of the roundabout tag is linked to the presence of the corresponding road sign for a roundabout, at least this seems to be common practice on OSM. Volker On 19 May 2012 17:13, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Thu, 2012-05-17 at 18:07 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: If anyone doubts that existing tagging does not match the wiki, see the following examples, all tagged as junction=roundabout by editors other than me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5677217 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/9080282 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 Speaking as a Brit who has held a driving licence for 33 years and have been dealing with roundabouts for all of that time, all 3 look like roundabouts to me, the 2nd is a Hamburger Roundabout. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Hamburger_roundabout.2Fthroughabout.2Fcut-through_roundabout Traffic lights on roundabouts are extremely common, and nobody in the UK would consider them anything but a roundabout. Roundabouts can come in all shapes and sizes. Whilst I cannot think of any that have stop signs, I cannot see why they wouldn't in a country where stop signs are commonly used. Having driven in Canada, the number of stop signs in places I would not have expected them to be did is one of my memories of driving there. Stop signs are quite rare in the UK and are mainly used on blind junctions. Phil ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/19/2012 11:43 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote: All three examples would not be roundabouts in Germany or Italy, where the use of the roundabout tag is linked to the presence of the corresponding road sign for a roundabout, at least this seems to be common practice on OSM. In New Jersey the standard sign says 'circle', and in Massachusetts it says 'rotary'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Route_34_circle.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LowellRotary1.jpg Both are used on true roundabouts, as well as on things that some would not call roundabouts (including the Route 34 example, where the approach shown does not yield). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: Whilst I cannot think of any that have stop signs, I cannot see why they wouldn't in a country where stop signs are commonly used. It kind of defeats the purpose. If traffic has to come to a complete stop anyway, why bother using a roundabout? But that's an argument for not putting stop signs on roundabouts, not an argument that a would-be-roundabout with stop signs is not a roundabout. On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: They are all so large that there is no technical advantage in tagging them as roundabouts as opposed to just normal roads that happen to be circular. Why do we want to map a junction as roundabout? The main reason is most likely that this way the navigation software can produce the right instructions. Yes, this is my point. On the other hand, there seems to be enough disagreement over this issue that it's not worth pursuing. Preprocessing steps in creating navigation software will just have to notice that the road is very short, and adjust directions accordingly. This is already something which has to be done in order to create good navigation software, otherwise you'll wind up with turn left onto YYY road, go 3 meters, make a left onto ZZZ road rather than make a U-turn. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/19/2012 11:43 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote: All three examples would not be roundabouts in Germany or Italy, where the use of the roundabout tag is linked to the presence of the corresponding road sign for a roundabout, at least this seems to be common practice on OSM. In New Jersey the standard sign says 'circle', and in Massachusetts it says 'rotary'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Route_34_circle.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LowellRotary1.jpg Both are used on true roundabouts, as well as on things that some would not call roundabouts (including the Route 34 example, where the approach shown does not yield). It is certainly possible that circle and rotary are terms which overlap with or are supersets of roundabout. I'd be interested in seeing a sign which says circle used on a roundabout, though. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/19/2012 1:01 PM, Anthony wrote: I'd be interested in seeing a sign which says circle used on a roundabout, though. If you mean simply a circle where all entering traffic yields, here's one: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=39.900158,-74.592219spn=0.00179,0.004128gl=ust=kz=19layer=ccbll=39.900118,-74.592345panoid=Supc0kOmdg30CoFnHnF6GQcbp=12,255.75,,0,0.7 (Though they do seem to have started using a different sign for 'true roundabouts' recently.) If you mean a modern roundabout with all its anal criteria (e.g. no monuments in the center, curves matching a certain profile), I can't help you. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/19/2012 1:01 PM, Anthony wrote: I'd be interested in seeing a sign which says circle used on a roundabout, though. If you mean simply a circle where all entering traffic yields No, I mean a true roundabout. You said that both circle and rotary signs are used on true roundabouts. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=39.900158,-74.592219spn=0.00179,0.004128gl=ust=kz=19layer=ccbll=39.900118,-74.592345panoid=Supc0kOmdg30CoFnHnF6GQcbp=12,255.75,,0,0.7 I'm not sure that qualifies as approaching vehicles being deflected around a central island (the MUTCD definition). The deflection is being done by the islands in the four corners. If you mean a modern roundabout with all its anal criteria (e.g. no monuments in the center, curves matching a certain profile), I can't help you. So what did you mean by a true roundabout? What is your definition of a roundabout? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/19/2012 1:34 PM, Anthony wrote: I'm not sure that qualifies as approaching vehicles being deflected around a central island (the MUTCD definition). The deflection is being done by the islands in the four corners. Buh? So you wouldn't call http://www.morpc.org/transportation/Rules_Of_The_Road/roundabouts.asp a roundabout, since it has splitter islands? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Sat, May 19, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/19/2012 1:34 PM, Anthony wrote: I'm not sure that qualifies as approaching vehicles being deflected around a central island (the MUTCD definition). The deflection is being done by the islands in the four corners. Buh? So you wouldn't call http://www.morpc.org/transportation/Rules_Of_The_Road/roundabouts.asp a roundabout, since it has splitter islands? What makes you think that? And what did you mean by true roundabout? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Hi Tobias, Sorry to start this again, but yesterday evening was a little difficult. ;-) I reread the description and tagging of the example. If I understood you correct - please correct me if not - you are confused because about this: A ROUND place with a traversable ISLAND. So round and island are the problem - right? Actually the description just states what can be seen on the photo. A highway=turning_circle still is a widened space of whatever shape and with no or a traversable island. Nothing changed and should be changed in the definition of the tag. Did I understood you correct? If so, I'm thinking about a more clear wording for this example. Also the statement A turning circle is a widened space on a two-way street without any center island. should be updated to include fully traversable island. Thanks for your feedback, Martin 2012/5/17 Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: On the page you referensed to. in the table with pictures it says A round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald (Imagic) imagic@gmail.com: But this is exactly the definition of turning_place: a widening of the road without any island. Am 17.05.2012 um 22:23 schrieb Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: There is one thing. In Sweden we have something called Vändplats http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Vagmarken/Forbudsmarken/Vandplats/ roughly translated turnaroundplace usally in sweden we have used highway=turning_circle for this. According to this definition almost no vändplats would be turning_circles because: They are almost never circular (except new ones beeing built today). And there is no island in the middle. In many cases they ar more like a widening of the road so its possible to make a three-point-turn. I dont think anyone i sweden will change how we map this in Sweden because of this definition. But how do you guys feel about this? Best Regards Thod 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
You understand me correctly. Or maybe a text something similar to this: This picture shows a round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. Not saying that all turning circels need to be round nor have a traversible island. or.. I dont know maybee I was only tired yesterday.. :) MvH Thod A round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. 2012/5/18 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi Tobias, Sorry to start this again, but yesterday evening was a little difficult. ;-) I reread the description and tagging of the example. If I understood you correct - please correct me if not - you are confused because about this: A ROUND place with a traversable ISLAND. So round and island are the problem - right? Actually the description just states what can be seen on the photo. A highway=turning_circle still is a widened space of whatever shape and with no or a traversable island. Nothing changed and should be changed in the definition of the tag. Did I understood you correct? If so, I'm thinking about a more clear wording for this example. Also the statement A turning circle is a widened space on a two-way street without any center island. should be updated to include fully traversable island. Thanks for your feedback, Martin 2012/5/17 Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: On the page you referensed to. in the table with pictures it says A round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald (Imagic) imagic@gmail.com: But this is exactly the definition of turning_place: a widening of the road without any island. Am 17.05.2012 um 22:23 schrieb Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: There is one thing. In Sweden we have something called Vändplats http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Vagmarken/Forbudsmarken/Vandplats/ roughly translated turnaroundplace usally in sweden we have used highway=turning_circle for this. According to this definition almost no vändplats would be turning_circles because: They are almost never circular (except new ones beeing built today). And there is no island in the middle. In many cases they ar more like a widening of the road so its possible to make a three-point-turn. I dont think anyone i sweden will change how we map this in Sweden because of this definition. But how do you guys feel about this? Best Regards Thod 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/18 Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: You understand me correctly. Or maybe a text something similar to this: This picture shows a round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. Not saying that all turning circels need to be round nor have a traversible island. Thanks for that. I'll updated the wording. Better now? or.. I dont know maybee I was only tired yesterday.. :) The wiki should also be readable when tired. So please read it tonight around 4am after some beers. Let us know about any difficulties you had while reading - at least the ones you remember ;-) Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/17 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: Edit wars are what happens when someone ignores objections that have been raised and decides to arbitrarily define the existing tagging in the database as wrong. There will always be errors in the database, but if we redefine features every time someone has abused them we will not be able to keep any feature list active, the definitions will all become blurred. IMHO there was a kind of consensus in the mini-roundabout thread, although there also were a few objections. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/18 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: If anyone doubts that existing tagging does not match the wiki, see the following examples, all tagged as junction=roundabout by editors other than me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5677217 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/9080282 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 You are free to correct it and to write to the mappers in order to avoid they make the same mistake in the future. That's the usual way of dealing with problems like this. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/18/2012 9:15 AM, Anthony wrote: 2012/5/18 Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: If anyone doubts that existing tagging does not match the wiki, see the following examples, all tagged as junction=roundabout by editors other than me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5677217 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/9080282 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 I don't see why the last one doesn't qualify as a roundabout. We are allowing stop signs, right? Look at the yield teeth on the Bing aerial. The north approach has right-of-way over the circle. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/17/2012 3:04 PM, Martin Vonwald wrote: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Traffic circles are usually tagged as roundabouts, contrary to your statement. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
There is one thing. In Sweden we have something called Vändplats http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Vagmarken/Forbudsmarken/Vandplats/ roughly translated turnaroundplace usally in sweden we have used highway=turning_circle for this. According to this definition almost no vändplats would be turning_circles because: They are almost never circular (except new ones beeing built today). And there is no island in the middle. In many cases they ar more like a widening of the road so its possible to make a three-point-turn. I dont think anyone i sweden will change how we map this in Sweden because of this definition. But how do you guys feel about this? Best Regards Thod 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
But this is exactly the definition of turning_place: a widening of the road without any island. Am 17.05.2012 um 22:23 schrieb Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: There is one thing. In Sweden we have something called Vändplats http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Vagmarken/Forbudsmarken/Vandplats/ roughly translated turnaroundplace usally in sweden we have used highway=turning_circle for this. According to this definition almost no vändplats would be turning_circles because: They are almost never circular (except new ones beeing built today). And there is no island in the middle. In many cases they ar more like a widening of the road so its possible to make a three-point-turn. I dont think anyone i sweden will change how we map this in Sweden because of this definition. But how do you guys feel about this? Best Regards Thod 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On the page you referensed to. in the table with pictures it says A round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald (Imagic) imagic@gmail.com: But this is exactly the definition of turning_place: a widening of the road without any island. Am 17.05.2012 um 22:23 schrieb Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: There is one thing. In Sweden we have something called Vändplats http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Vagmarken/Forbudsmarken/Vandplats/ roughly translated turnaroundplace usally in sweden we have used highway=turning_circle for this. According to this definition almost no vändplats would be turning_circles because: They are almost never circular (except new ones beeing built today). And there is no island in the middle. In many cases they ar more like a widening of the road so its possible to make a three-point-turn. I dont think anyone i sweden will change how we map this in Sweden because of this definition. But how do you guys feel about this? Best Regards Thod 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Look at the second column for the suggested tagging. The wording turning circle is misleading here and does NOT refer to turning_circle; it should read turning place. But I will not do any more wiki-edits unless NE2 is banned so I can not fix this. Nonetheless thanks for pointing this out. Am 17.05.2012 um 22:42 schrieb Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: On the page you referensed to. in the table with pictures it says A round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald (Imagic) imagic@gmail.com: But this is exactly the definition of turning_place: a widening of the road without any island. Am 17.05.2012 um 22:23 schrieb Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: There is one thing. In Sweden we have something called Vändplats http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Vagmarken/Forbudsmarken/Vandplats/ roughly translated turnaroundplace usally in sweden we have used highway=turning_circle for this. According to this definition almost no vändplats would be turning_circles because: They are almost never circular (except new ones beeing built today). And there is no island in the middle. In many cases they ar more like a widening of the road so its possible to make a three-point-turn. I dont think anyone i sweden will change how we map this in Sweden because of this definition. But how do you guys feel about this? Best Regards Thod 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Whoever the hell Gnonthgol is on the wiki has blocked me to get his way in an edit war. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Whoever the hell Gnonthgol is on the wiki has blocked me to get his way in an edit war. Why do you keep starting the wars? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/17/2012 5:39 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: Whoever the hell Gnonthgol is on the wiki has blocked me to get his way in an edit war. Why do you keep starting the wars? Have you stopped beating your wife? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/17/2012 5:27 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Whoever the hell Gnonthgol is on the wiki has blocked me to get his way in an edit war. By the way, his block summary is complete bullshit. He says The discussion on tagging@ mentions traffic circles and right of way several times and allways with the conclution that it should not be tagged as a roundabout but there is no such conclusion. There was no reply to the following open issues: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2012-May/010225.html http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2012-May/010241.html It also assumes that a discussion on tagging can somehow override existing status of the data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/17/2012 5:48 PM, Gnonthgol wrote: Whoever the hell Gnonthgol is on the wiki has blocked me to get his way in an edit war. I am sorry I offended you but I was not out to win an edit war. You were blocked because you edited against the consensus on the list, and when I reverted your edits you started an edit war. Edit wars are not the way to win a serious discussion. Edit wars are what happens when someone ignores objections that have been raised and decides to arbitrarily define the existing tagging in the database as wrong. You reverted twice, once after blocking me, so you edit warred too. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/17/2012 5:39 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: Whoever the hell Gnonthgol is on the wiki has blocked me to get his way in an edit war. Why do you keep starting the wars? Have you stopped beating your wife? I asked a serious question, you replied with rhetoric. I'm glad you've decided to move this conversation in a direction that is in no way at all selfish and immature. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
If anyone doubts that existing tagging does not match the wiki, see the following examples, all tagged as junction=roundabout by editors other than me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5677217 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/9080282 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 15/05/12 22:25, Colin Smale wrote:
It would be nice if these rond-points would be explicitly tagged (e.g.
junction=rond_point???) so mkgmap can still easily be taught to
recognise it and treat it as a roundabout even if it doesn't comply with
the OSM semantics for one. Otherwise your satnav will tell you to turn
right at the junction, even if you want to turn left {driving on the
right}. I am concerned here about usability of the data, particularly
for routing.
According to Wikipedia at least, the ones without priority for
circulating traffic are called traffic circles in the US, and they use
the BE roundabout as we do in GB:
In the U.S., traffic engineers use the term roundabout for
intersections in which entering traffic must yield to traffic already in
the circle, reserving the term traffic circle for those in which
entering traffic is controlled by stop signs, traffic signals, or is not
formally controlled.
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circle
not a bad distinction to retain, as I've mentioned. Luckily the language
divide operates in our favo(u)r here.
So as I understand it the j=traffic_circle would seem to be a more
generic English name which could include rond-points, though carrefours
giratoire are the same concept as j=roundabout. If the distinction ever
needs to be made, I'd suggest using {junction,highway}=traffic_circle
for cases with other priorities.
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=traffic_circle#values
-- very little usage of either right now
Note that we don't ordinarily represent priorities at junctions anyway.
Given that we don't make the distinction elsewhere, wouldn't it make
sense to solve the problem separately?
--
Andrew Chadwick
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Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
First of all many thanks for your detailed and constructive feedback. 2012/5/15 Andrew Chadwick (lists) a.t.chadwick+li...@gmail.com: Still open, so please provide feedback: * Decision if traffic_calming=chicane or traffic_calming=island should be used in two of the examples Chicanes look very different, and wouldn't be confused with roundabouts anyway. Best avoid mentioning them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicane#Traffic_calming I already changed the example to traffic_calming=island and removed any reference to chicane. So I guess traffic_calming=island is hereby approved, as no one objects. Some other feedback: 0. Box description needs a really nice clear photograph! Hopefully it's nice enough. Done. 1. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traffic_circle currently redirects to the Tag:junction=roundabout. This is in conflict with your new text and the existing text because traffic circles apparently do not grant right of way to the circulating traffic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circle . It's US English terminology, not British English, but it's a good distinction to retain if you ask me. I'll keep that in mind. I guess we need a new article about traffic circles then. 2. Needs to explain what traversable means. I would be very thankful for some suggestion here, as I'm not a native speaker. 3. Drop the A roundabout is from the box Description for brevity. Done. 4. be anywhere = have any size :) I copied that from the original article ;-) 5. The introductory blurb re the Danger of confusion sounds a bit alarmist. Perhaps it's just the section title. I would drop this para since whatever title we choose will be right there in the Contents box. Moved it below the examples. I can't think of a better name though. 6. I'm happy to tweak the English text as needed once it's up; poke me when it's done. Or should I just dive in and reword? I'll come back to you for sure! ;-) 7. How to map = needs a gentler introductory paragraph going over things at a high level before you get into the detail of how everything should be done. Suggest something like Start by drawing a circular shape, and make its tags match the roads which connect with it. or maybe something more. 7a. The detailed instructions tagging might be more digestible in billet-point form. Better? 8. Editor support for circles seems too prominent where it is, and nobody's really bothered about the neatening tools at first. I suggest demoting this to a later section, and maybe retitling it as Drawing neater circles. I'm not sure about that. I'm afraid that people will oversee it at the end of the article. And there are already enough complains, that drawing a circle is so difficult. 9. Examples section: these are not really examples; they're closer to explanations of how to continue road tagging through a roundabout. I like the visual explanations of how to to classify the roundabout w.r.t. the ways connecting to it. 9a. Ideally, the example section needs some good photographic examples with big thumbnails and clear explanations of what tags to use. I didn't add any examples before, because they would all be tagged identically. Now I added a nice selection of photos. Better? 10. Danger of confusion. The title still sounds a bit alarmist! Not sure how to retitle it though. Features which look like roundabouts, but aren't? I'm not a native speaker, but Features which look like roundabouts, but aren't? Really? ;-) 10a. Perhaps it could be merged with the Examples section usefully. Yes, it could and it was. I also think, it's better now. 11. It's important that the example photos of things which are _not_ roundabouts should be made much more distinguishable from the photos of things which _are_ roundabouts. This is because people who do not speak German, English or Russian well will be looking at the photographs and not the words; if the distinction is unclear from the form of the page, we may be compounding the problem of mistagging. Hm. There is a photo and the correct tagging right beside it. What more is needed? Suggestions? Thanks again! Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/16 Andrew Chadwick (lists) a.t.chadwick+li...@gmail.com: According to Wikipedia at least, the ones without priority for circulating traffic are called traffic circles in the US, and they use the BE roundabout as we do in GB: In the U.S., traffic engineers use the term roundabout for intersections in which entering traffic must yield to traffic already in the circle, reserving the term traffic circle for those in which entering traffic is controlled by stop signs, traffic signals, or is not formally controlled. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circle Thanks for that. I added a note about traffic circles and a link to the wikipedia article. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/15/2012 10:30 AM, Anthony wrote: Okay, so, for OSM terminology, a roundabout means 1) traffic goes in one direction; 2) entering traffic must yield; and 3) entering traffic need not stop (no stop signs). Nope. Junction=roundabout applies to all (one-way) traffic circles, no matter what the right-of-way rules are. Okay, so http://www.yargerengineering.com/articles/images/Traffic-Circle-Woodruff-Place-Indy400.jpg is junction=roundabout? And the only difference between a roundabout and http://g.co/maps/nvhfh is that you can (supposedly) make a left at the latter without going all the way around in a counter-clockwise direction? (In other words, if there was a sign indicating that you had to drive to the right of the island, it would be a roundabout?) Unless you want to invent a new tag for the New Jersey circles that give right-of-way to some approaches. I wouldn't mind. There's something fundamentally different between a typical New Jersey traffic circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Marlton_circle.jpg) and an island in the middle of an intersection which people drive around in a counter-clockwise direction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif). I certainly would give different driving directions in each instance (something like merge onto the Marlton Circle and make a right at the third exit vs. make a left at the roundabout intersection). New Jerseyans certainly don't distinguish them from other circles where all entering traffic must yield. I can't think of any true roundabouts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif) in New Jersey. But then, I haven't lived there in over a decade. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:
It would be nice if these rond-points would be explicitly tagged (e.g.
junction=rond_point???) so mkgmap can still easily be taught to recognise it
and treat it as a roundabout even if it doesn't comply with the OSM
semantics for one. Otherwise your satnav will tell you to turn right at the
junction, even if you want to turn left {driving on the right}.
Surely you would not want your satnav to tell you to turn left at the
Arc De Triomphe.
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Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 16/05/12 12:03, Martin Vonwald wrote: Thanks for your work. 8. Editor support for circles seems too prominent where it is, and nobody's really bothered about the neatening tools at first. I suggest demoting this to a later section, and maybe retitling it as Drawing neater circles. I'm not sure about that. I'm afraid that people will oversee it at the end of the article. And there are already enough complains, that drawing a circle is so difficult. +1 Yes, think we should prefere the circle for all that is not fully traversable (traffic_island might be different but not part of this discussion) More editors should make it easier to draw a circle. In the JOSM section a link to the JOSM-wiki describtions of the tools [1][2] is useful. Ciao fly [1] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/AlignInCircle [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/CreateCircle ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/16 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: In the JOSM section a link to the JOSM-wiki describtions of the tools [1][2] is useful. [1] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/AlignInCircle [2] https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Help/Action/CreateCircle Links added - thanks. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/16/2012 8:51 AM, Anthony wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: Unless you want to invent a new tag for the New Jersey circles that give right-of-way to some approaches. I wouldn't mind. There's something fundamentally different between a typical New Jersey traffic circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Marlton_circle.jpg) and an island in the middle of an intersection which people drive around in a counter-clockwise direction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif). That's not a standard NJ traffic circle. Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flemington_circle_usgs.jpg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Am 16.05.2012 um 19:44 schrieb Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? Penalties for routing? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/16/2012 1:52 PM, Martin Vonwald (Imagic) wrote: Am 16.05.2012 um 19:44 schrieb Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? Penalties for routing? Meaning? Would you assign more or less penalty to one where some entering traffic doesn't yield? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 16/05/2012 19:01, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 5/16/2012 1:52 PM, Martin Vonwald (Imagic) wrote: Am 16.05.2012 um 19:44 schrieb Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? Penalties for routing? Meaning? Would you assign more or less penalty to one where some entering traffic doesn't yield? Do we have a way of representing priority at junctions generally? I've often thought we should, but I don't think I've ever seen such a thing. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 16/05/2012 19:01, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 5/16/2012 1:52 PM, Martin Vonwald (Imagic) wrote: Am 16.05.2012 um 19:44 schrieb Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? Penalties for routing? Meaning? Would you assign more or less penalty to one where some entering traffic doesn't yield? Do we have a way of representing priority at junctions generally? I've often thought we should, but I don't think I've ever seen such a thing. There is highway=stop and highway=give_way but their use is kind of awkward. The wiki says to put it on a node before the intersection which makes some sense but then anyone who actually wants to use it has to do some calculation to figure out which direction of travel it applies to. Which would mean finding the nearest intersection with a similarly classed road to the tagged node. I typically only put highway=stop on 4 way stops where it applies to all ways. Toby ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 16/05/12 21:34, Toby Murray wrote: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 16/05/2012 19:01, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 5/16/2012 1:52 PM, Martin Vonwald (Imagic) wrote: Am 16.05.2012 um 19:44 schrieb Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? Penalties for routing? Meaning? Would you assign more or less penalty to one where some entering traffic doesn't yield? Do we have a way of representing priority at junctions generally? I've often thought we should, but I don't think I've ever seen such a thing. There is highway=stop and highway=give_way but their use is kind of awkward. The wiki says to put it on a node before the intersection which makes some sense but then anyone who actually wants to use it has to do some calculation to figure out which direction of travel it applies to. Which would mean finding the nearest intersection with a similarly classed road to the tagged node. I typically only put highway=stop on 4 way stops where it applies to all ways. typical us-american situation. There is also the possibility to tag the traffic sign. taginfo: DE:205 477 DE:206 89 cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On May 16, 2012 12:35 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: There is highway=stop and highway=give_way but their use is kind of awkward. The wiki says to put it on a node before the intersection which makes some sense but then anyone who actually wants to use it has to do some calculation to figure out which direction of travel it applies to. Which would mean finding the nearest intersection with a similarly classed road to the tagged node. I typically only put highway=stop on 4 way stops where it applies to all ways. Seems like this would be a great job for relations. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? I think the issue is more one that any roundabout which is large enough to not require entering traffic to yield is fundamentally different from a quintessential roundabout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif). But maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone have an example of a traffic circle where entering traffic does not yield, but it makes sense for a satnav to say make a left at the roundabout? Where traffic puts on their left turn signal? A la http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flemington_circle_usgs.jpg certainly doesn't qualify. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/16/2012 7:41 PM, Anthony wrote: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? I think the issue is more one that any roundabout which is large enough to not require entering traffic to yield is fundamentally different from a quintessential roundabout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif). But maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone have an example of a traffic circle where entering traffic does not yield, but it makes sense for a satnav to say make a left at the roundabout? I'd expect to be told take the nth exit from the roundabout/circle. How is the satnav to know if an angle of 135 degrees is straight or left? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/16/2012 7:41 PM, Anthony wrote: Does anyone have an example of a traffic circle where entering traffic does not yield, but it makes sense for a satnav to say make a left at the roundabout? I'd expect to be told take the nth exit from the roundabout/circle. Me too. That is my point. Whereas when making a left at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NonUK_Roundabout_8_Cars.gif I'd expect to be told to make a left, not to make a right onto unnammed roundabout/circle road and then take the nth exit. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone have an actual use case where it's so important to know whether entering traffic yields that the user expects a completely different tag when one or more approaches has right-of-way? Also, I'd prefer for my satnav to save the word roundabout for actual roundabouts. If it starts talking to me about roundabouts when I'm just merging onto a road which is part of an interchange which is kind of circular in shape, I'm just going to get confused. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/16/2012 8:13 PM, Anthony wrote: Also, I'd prefer for my satnav to save the word roundabout for actual roundabouts. If it starts talking to me about roundabouts when I'm just merging onto a road which is part of an interchange which is kind of circular in shape, I'm just going to get confused. I doubt this. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 8:24 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/16/2012 8:13 PM, Anthony wrote: Also, I'd prefer for my satnav to save the word roundabout for actual roundabouts. If it starts talking to me about roundabouts when I'm just merging onto a road which is part of an interchange which is kind of circular in shape, I'm just going to get confused. I doubt this. You don't get confused when your navigation program starts talking to you about intersections that don't exist? When this happens to me, and it does happen from time to time (*), and I'm in an area I'm not familiar with, it confuses me. (*) For example, make a slight right onto Whatever Ave, when there's just a pretty much straight road ahead of you with no traffic lights or stop signs or other traffic control devices. Anyway, while looking for an example of a roundabout, I came across this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/83428962/history Why did you remove the roundabout tag? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/16/2012 8:34 PM, Anthony wrote: Anyway, while looking for an example of a roundabout, I came across this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/83428962/history Why did you remove the roundabout tag? Because it's not a complete circle... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On May 16, 2012 4:47 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: I'd expect to be told take the nth exit from the roundabout/circle. How is the satnav to know if an angle of 135 degrees is straight or left? Same here, especially given situations like Ladd's Circle in Portland, which is a large, eight exit roundabout. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/16/2012 8:34 PM, Anthony wrote: Anyway, while looking for an example of a roundabout, I came across this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/83428962/history Why did you remove the roundabout tag? Because it's not a complete circle... So what? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Are there any alternatives to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Kein_kreisel_IMGP9185_osm.jpg ? Maybe I'm alone in this, but the three arrows are very confusing. I had to stare at the large image for quite a while before I was able to figure them out. On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: If there are no further objections I will update the article about junction=roundabout by tomorrow according to my latest version: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt Things to do: * As soon as there is an accepted simplification for turning circles with an island I'll update the last confusion-example. * I will start with the translation to german and update the german article a few days later. * If no one else wants to do it I will also translate it to russian (takes a while) * I will merge the wiki article of traffic_calming=island with the main article, because right now it is not documented there. Maybe also clean up that article. I guess, that it would be wise to create a template for the Danger of confusion section, so that it can be reused in the articles about highway=mini_roundabout and maybe highway=turning_circle. Can someone help me with the correct creation of such a template? Martin 2012/5/14 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! The reworked article about junction=roundabout is now more or less finished, so please comment on the whole article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt Still open, so please provide feedback: * Decision if traffic_calming=chicane or traffic_calming=island should be used in two of the examples * Guideline how to create circles for editors besides JOSM (nice-to-have) * A good aerial image of a roundabout, that could be mistaken with a mini-roundabout on the aerial image (nice-to-have) Thanks, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
If not, maybe we could add a sentence such as Unlike at a roundabout, it is legal to drive to the right or to the left of the obstruction. Also, is it acceptable to simply map the feature as a circular way, rather than use traffic_calming=island? On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Are there any alternatives to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Kein_kreisel_IMGP9185_osm.jpg ? Maybe I'm alone in this, but the three arrows are very confusing. I had to stare at the large image for quite a while before I was able to figure them out. On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: If there are no further objections I will update the article about junction=roundabout by tomorrow according to my latest version: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt Things to do: * As soon as there is an accepted simplification for turning circles with an island I'll update the last confusion-example. * I will start with the translation to german and update the german article a few days later. * If no one else wants to do it I will also translate it to russian (takes a while) * I will merge the wiki article of traffic_calming=island with the main article, because right now it is not documented there. Maybe also clean up that article. I guess, that it would be wise to create a template for the Danger of confusion section, so that it can be reused in the articles about highway=mini_roundabout and maybe highway=turning_circle. Can someone help me with the correct creation of such a template? Martin 2012/5/14 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! The reworked article about junction=roundabout is now more or less finished, so please comment on the whole article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt Still open, so please provide feedback: * Decision if traffic_calming=chicane or traffic_calming=island should be used in two of the examples * Guideline how to create circles for editors besides JOSM (nice-to-have) * A good aerial image of a roundabout, that could be mistaken with a mini-roundabout on the aerial image (nice-to-have) Thanks, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/15 Anthony o...@inbox.org: Also, is it acceptable to simply map the feature as a circular way, rather than use traffic_calming=island? I don't think so. Because the street is not a circular way, but instead there is an island in the middle of the street. At least this is my interpretation. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: 2012/5/15 Anthony o...@inbox.org: Also, is it acceptable to simply map the feature as a circular way, rather than use traffic_calming=island? I don't think so. Because the street is not a circular way, but instead there is an island in the middle of the street. At least this is my interpretation. How does this differ from a small roundabout, other than the lack of a one-way restriction? If there is an island in the middle of a two-way street, surely you are supposed to pass to the right (*) of the island. I have to say that I still don't understand how this works in practice, e.g. when someone is turning left and someone is turning right, and they are both trying to use the same part of the road. (*) In right-hand side driving jurisdictions. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: I don't think so. Because the street is not a circular way, but instead there is an island in the middle of the street. At least this is my interpretation. How does this differ from a small roundabout, other than the lack of a one-way restriction? By the way, quoting Wikipedia: Although the term roundabout is sometimes used for a traffic circle even in the United States, US traffic engineers now make the distinction that in a roundabout entering traffic must always yield to traffic already in the circle, whereas in a traffic circle entering traffic is controlled by Stop signs, or is not formally controlled, although some states are exceptions, notably New York, which follows the yield rule although naming them Traffic Circles. However, in OSM terminology, there is no distinction between roundabouts and traffic circles, right? What is this? http://www.yargerengineering.com/articles/images/Traffic-Circle-Woodruff-Place-Indy400.jpg woodruff place middle drive and cross drive, indianapolis, for those who want to map it. There's a curious sign with an arrow which says left turn this side of island, but I can't actually figure out what it's talking about. The direction the sign is facing, the direction of the arrow, and the position of the sign, seem to be contradictory. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/15 Anthony o...@inbox.org: However, in OSM terminology, there is no distinction between roundabouts and traffic circles, right? Yes and no ;-) ... in a roundabout entering traffic must always yield to traffic already in the circle That's junction=roundabout or highway=mini_roundabout - right-of-way whereas in a traffic circle entering traffic is controlled by Stop signs, or is not formally controlled That would be mapped simply as a way - no right-of-way What is this? http://www.yargerengineering.com/articles/images/Traffic-Circle-Woodruff-Place-Indy400.jpg Not a roundabout. ;-) ... New York, which follows the yield rule although naming them Traffic Circles No matter how they call it, if it is a one-way with right-of-way I would tag it as junction=roundabout. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: 2012/5/15 Anthony o...@inbox.org: ... in a roundabout entering traffic must always yield to traffic already in the circle That's junction=roundabout or highway=mini_roundabout - right-of-way whereas in a traffic circle entering traffic is controlled by Stop signs, or is not formally controlled That would be mapped simply as a way - no right-of-way There is right-of-way. A stop sign means stop and then yield. What is this? http://www.yargerengineering.com/articles/images/Traffic-Circle-Woodruff-Place-Indy400.jpg Not a roundabout. ;-) Okay, so, for OSM terminology, a roundabout means 1) traffic goes in one direction; 2) entering traffic must yield; and 3) entering traffic need not stop (no stop signs). What about traffic lights? Is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roundabout.bristol.arp.jpg a roundabout? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 15/05/2012 16:30, Anthony wrote: Okay, so, for OSM terminology, a roundabout means 1) traffic goes in one direction; 2) entering traffic must yield; and 3) entering traffic need not stop (no stop signs). I hope not...OSM currently has no way of reflecting priority at junctions. Introducing this distinction just for circular junctions is a bit pointless. However if the consensus is to distinguish between the priority rules at circular junctions, I hope it will be explicitly tagged (e.g. junction=traffic_circle) so mkgmap will still be able to recognise a circular junction and call it a roundabout even if it doesn't comply with the OSM semantics for one. Colin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Should also be valid for a closed way like the junction= key so detail wouldn't have to be removed in situations where such an island was mapped as a roundabout. On May 15, 2012 5:58 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: If not, maybe we could add a sentence such as Unlike at a roundabout, it is legal to drive to the right or to the left of the obstruction. Also, is it acceptable to simply map the feature as a circular way, rather than use traffic_calming=island? On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Are there any alternatives to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Kein_kreisel_IMGP9185_osm.jpg ? Maybe I'm alone in this, but the three arrows are very confusing. I had to stare at the large image for quite a while before I was able to figure them out. On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 5:56 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: If there are no further objections I will update the article about junction=roundabout by tomorrow according to my latest version: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt Things to do: * As soon as there is an accepted simplification for turning circles with an island I'll update the last confusion-example. * I will start with the translation to german and update the german article a few days later. * If no one else wants to do it I will also translate it to russian (takes a while) * I will merge the wiki article of traffic_calming=island with the main article, because right now it is not documented there. Maybe also clean up that article. I guess, that it would be wise to create a template for the Danger of confusion section, so that it can be reused in the articles about highway=mini_roundabout and maybe highway=turning_circle. Can someone help me with the correct creation of such a template? Martin 2012/5/14 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! The reworked article about junction=roundabout is now more or less finished, so please comment on the whole article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt Still open, so please provide feedback: * Decision if traffic_calming=chicane or traffic_calming=island should be used in two of the examples * Guideline how to create circles for editors besides JOSM (nice-to-have) * A good aerial image of a roundabout, that could be mistaken with a mini-roundabout on the aerial image (nice-to-have) Thanks, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/15 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl On 15/05/2012 16:30, Anthony wrote: I hope not...OSM currently has no way of reflecting priority at junctions. Introducing this distinction just for circular junctions is a bit pointless. Well there IS highway=give_way. Not that I tagged it so far. But almost 9000 hits at taginfo means it's at least 'in use'. (Also highway=stop). Best regards, Chaos99 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 14/05/12 12:36, Martin Vonwald wrote: The reworked article about junction=roundabout is now more or less finished, so please comment on the whole article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt Still open, so please provide feedback: * Decision if traffic_calming=chicane or traffic_calming=island should be used in two of the examples Chicanes look very different, and wouldn't be confused with roundabouts anyway. Best avoid mentioning them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicane#Traffic_calming Some other feedback: 0. Box description needs a really nice clear photograph! 1. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Traffic_circle currently redirects to the Tag:junction=roundabout. This is in conflict with your new text and the existing text because traffic circles apparently do not grant right of way to the circulating traffic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circle . It's US English terminology, not British English, but it's a good distinction to retain if you ask me. 2. Needs to explain what traversable means. 3. Drop the A roundabout is from the box Description for brevity. 4. be anywhere = have any size :) 5. The introductory blurb re the Danger of confusion sounds a bit alarmist. Perhaps it's just the section title. I would drop this para since whatever title we choose will be right there in the Contents box. 6. I'm happy to tweak the English text as needed once it's up; poke me when it's done. Or should I just dive in and reword? 7. How to map = needs a gentler introductory paragraph going over things at a high level before you get into the detail of how everything should be done. Suggest something like Start by drawing a circular shape, and make its tags match the roads which connect with it. or maybe something more. 7a. The detailed instructions tagging might be more digestible in billet-point form. 8. Editor support for circles seems too prominent where it is, and nobody's really bothered about the neatening tools at first. I suggest demoting this to a later section, and maybe retitling it as Drawing neater circles. 9. Examples section: these are not really examples; they're closer to explanations of how to continue road tagging through a roundabout. I like the visual explanations of how to to classify the roundabout w.r.t. the ways connecting to it. 9a. Ideally, the example section needs some good photographic examples with big thumbnails and clear explanations of what tags to use. 10. Danger of confusion. The title still sounds a bit alarmist! Not sure how to retitle it though. Features which look like roundabouts, but aren't? 10a. Perhaps it could be merged with the Examples section usefully. 11. It's important that the example photos of things which are _not_ roundabouts should be made much more distinguishable from the photos of things which _are_ roundabouts. This is because people who do not speak German, English or Russian well will be looking at the photographs and not the words; if the distinction is unclear from the form of the page, we may be compounding the problem of mistagging. -- Andrew Chadwick ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/15/2012 10:30 AM, Anthony wrote: Okay, so, for OSM terminology, a roundabout means 1) traffic goes in one direction; 2) entering traffic must yield; and 3) entering traffic need not stop (no stop signs). Nope. Junction=roundabout applies to all (one-way) traffic circles, no matter what the right-of-way rules are. Unless you want to invent a new tag for the New Jersey circles that give right-of-way to some approaches. New Jerseyans certainly don't distinguish them from other circles where all entering traffic must yield. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 10:30 -0400, Anthony wrote: 2) entering traffic must yield; and Not always. In France there are still a few where traffic on the roundabout gives way to traffic joining the roundabout. Isn't the Arc De Triomphe the most famous 'old style'. Phil ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 10:30 -0400, Anthony wrote: 2) entering traffic must yield; and Not always. In France there are still a few where traffic on the roundabout gives way to traffic joining the roundabout. Isn't the Arc De Triomphe the most famous 'old style'. It's certainly a good example as to why the old style is the old style. ;o) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: 2) entering traffic must yield; and Not always. In France there are still a few where traffic on the roundabout gives way to traffic joining the roundabout. Isn't the Arc De Triomphe the most famous 'old style'. Basically such 'old style' junction called rond-point shouldn't be tagged with junction=roundabout ([1]). By chance, we only have very few of them (different priority/right of way), mostly in Paris. Only signed roundabouts (called carrefour giratoire)(yield [2]) should be tagged as such ([2]). Pieren [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Tag:junction%3Droundabout [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/0/02/Fr-AB25-sens_giratoire.gif ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:
It would be nice if these rond-points would be explicitly tagged (e.g.
junction=rond_point???) so mkgmap can still easily be taught to recognise it
and treat it as a roundabout even if it doesn't comply with the OSM
semantics for one. Otherwise your satnav will tell you to turn right at the
junction, even if you want to turn left {driving on the right}.
Hmmm, in this case, we replace the junction=roundabout by a
oneway=yes tag. I guess it is enough for turning restrictions (but
not for priority/right of way).
Pieren
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Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
That's not what I would call a chicane. For me, they generally involve obstructions protruding from the sides of a road. There's a picture on Wikipedia here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/One-lane_chicane_1.jpg. S On 14/05/2012 03:25, Clifford Snow wrote: On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org mailto:o...@inbox.org wrote: Please pardon the ignorant American question: What is the difference between traffic_calming=chicane and a small roundabout? Is it based on who has the right of way? Does anyone have an example of something like this in the US? Or is it safe to say that these don't exist here? Here is an example in Seattle. http://g.co/maps/nvhfh We have traffic calming islands all over the city. According to state law, there is no legal requirement to go around the island to make a left turn so traffic direction shouldn't be shown. -- Clifford I have promised to cut down on my swearing and drinking, which I have. Unfortunately, this has left me dim-witted and nearly speechless. Adapted from /The Lion/ by Nelson DeMille -or- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/14 Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us: On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: What is the difference between traffic_calming=chicane and a small roundabout? Is it based on who has the right of way? Here is an example in Seattle. http://g.co/maps/nvhfh We have traffic calming islands all over the city. According to state law, there is no legal requirement to go around the island to make a left turn so traffic direction shouldn't be shown. Are the danger-of-confusion-examples regarding traffic calming islands understandable from an US point of view? If not, can we get photos from those islands in your city? Thanks, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/14 Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com: That's not what I would call a chicane. For me, they generally involve obstructions protruding from the sides of a road. There's a picture on Wikipedia here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/One-lane_chicane_1.jpg. According to the current wiki chicanes are Hazards on the street you have to drive round. This would fit the image. Also at least in my region we use traffic_calming=chicane to map these: http://www.adfc-laatzen.de/adfc/radwege/fahrbahnverengungen/engstelle_reden.jpg If you think of these now on a junction it would fit the images in the examples. I also can't see any better fitting value for traffic_calming. Any further comments/suggestions? Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
14.05.2012 09:50, Martin Vonwald wrote: According to the current wiki chicanes are Hazards on the street you have to drive round. This would fit the image. Also at least in my region we use traffic_calming=chicane to map these: http://www.adfc-laatzen.de/adfc/radwege/fahrbahnverengungen/engstelle_reden.jpg The wiki definition was probably written under the assumption that everyone knows what chicane means anyway. It also links to Wikipedia, which defines it as an artificial feature creating extra turns in a road - which your example doesn't do, it just makes the road narrower. I consider neither that example nor the ones on your roundabout example page a chicane. Instead, I'd specifically expect _alternating_ obstructions on the left and right side of the road. Your example is more like an island. Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/14 Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com: That's not what I would call a chicane. For me, they generally involve obstructions protruding from the sides of a road. There's a picture on Wikipedia here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/One-lane_chicane_1.jpg. IMHO all measurements aiming at reducing traffic speed by physical means can be regarded chicanes. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/14 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: IMHO all measurements aiming at reducing traffic speed by physical means can be regarded chicanes. sorry, I take that back ;-) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/14 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: I consider neither that example nor the ones on your roundabout example page a chicane. Instead, I'd specifically expect _alternating_ obstructions on the left and right side of the road. Your example is more like an island. What is your suggestion to tag this? traffic_calming=island? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/14 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: 2012/5/14 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: I consider neither that example nor the ones on your roundabout example page a chicane. Instead, I'd specifically expect _alternating_ obstructions on the left and right side of the road. Your example is more like an island. What is your suggestion to tag this? traffic_calming=island? Actually a wiki page exists for that: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:traffic_calming=island It was created just two months ago and the value is not documented in the main article about traffic calming. The value is used about 400 times currently. Is this an accepted value? From the description An island is a small area that temporarily separates two different directions of traffic. it would fit quite well. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
14.05.2012 13:04, Martin Vonwald: Actually a wiki page exists for that: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:traffic_calming=island It was created just two months ago and the value is not documented in the main article about traffic calming. The value is used about 400 times currently. Is this an accepted value? From the description An island is a small area that temporarily separates two different directions of traffic. it would fit quite well. None of the values documented on the traffic_calming page really fits, so the island value is a good and clean solution imo. I don't think there was a formal proposal, though. Are there any objections to it? Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Hi! The reworked article about junction=roundabout is now more or less finished, so please comment on the whole article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt Still open, so please provide feedback: * Decision if traffic_calming=chicane or traffic_calming=island should be used in two of the examples * Guideline how to create circles for editors besides JOSM (nice-to-have) * A good aerial image of a roundabout, that could be mistaken with a mini-roundabout on the aerial image (nice-to-have) Thanks, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
If anyone of you is going to edit that page anyway, please add the combination suggestions with highway=crossing; crossing=island; I would say, not all islands are island-crossings, but (nearly all) crossings with an islands calm down traffic, so it's a useful combination. regards Peter Am 14.05.2012 13:04, schrieb Martin Vonwald: 2012/5/14 Martin Vonwaldimagic@gmail.com: 2012/5/14 Tobias Knerro...@tobias-knerr.de: I consider neither that example nor the ones on your roundabout example page a chicane. Instead, I'd specifically expect _alternating_ obstructions on the left and right side of the road. Your example is more like an island. What is your suggestion to tag this? traffic_calming=island? Actually a wiki page exists for that: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:traffic_calming=island It was created just two months ago and the value is not documented in the main article about traffic calming. The value is used about 400 times currently. Is this an accepted value? From the description An island is a small area that temporarily separates two different directions of traffic. it would fit quite well. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/14 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: If anyone of you is going to edit that page anyway, please add the combination suggestions with highway=crossing; crossing=island; I would say, not all islands are island-crossings, but (nearly all) crossings with an islands calm down traffic, so it's a useful combination. I quickly read the description of highway=crossing: this key is used for pedestrian or other kind of crossings. In my opinion this doesn't fit at all. Those islands in the example only have the purpose to lower the speed of vehicles, i.e. classical traffic calming. So I think the key most certainly should be traffic_calming. Right now the question is what value fits better. If island is an accepted value I would go for this. Otherwise I would prefer either chicane or a simple yes. Any more opinions on this? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/14 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: 2012/5/14 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: If anyone of you is going to edit that page anyway, please add the combination suggestions with highway=crossing; crossing=island; I would say, not all islands are island-crossings, but (nearly all) crossings with an islands calm down traffic, so it's a useful combination. Those islands in the example only have the purpose to lower the speed of vehicles, i.e. classical traffic calming. So I think the key most certainly should be traffic_calming. Right now the question is what value fits better. If island is an accepted value I would go for this. Otherwise I would prefer either chicane or a simple yes. Any more opinions on this? +1 to not mix up traffic_calming and crossing, they are compatible (=can be used on the same object due to different keys). Traffic_calming=island sounds ok. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Please pardon the ignorant American question: What is the difference between traffic_calming=chicane and a small roundabout? Is it based on who has the right of way? Does anyone have an example of something like this in the US? Or is it safe to say that these don't exist here? On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: Hi! As promised I created a few (positive/negative) examples of roundabouts, mini-roundabouts and turning circles to prevent misinterpretations in the future. I respected the current tagging scheme as described in the wiki, but also used once the suggested junction=roundabout on a node, which was born out of the need to quickly tag smaller roundabouts. You can find the examples here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Imagic/Werkstatt#Danger_of_confusion Please only look at the section Danger of confusion and ignore the rest as it is still being worked on. Any remarks, suggestions, tips and hints are welcome. Many thanks to all who provided photos and please dont take it personally if I didnt took your photo ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Please pardon the ignorant American question: What is the difference between traffic_calming=chicane and a small roundabout? Is it based on who has the right of way? Does anyone have an example of something like this in the US? Or is it safe to say that these don't exist here? Here is an example in Seattle. http://g.co/maps/nvhfh We have traffic calming islands all over the city. According to state law, there is no legal requirement to go around the island to make a left turn so traffic direction shouldn't be shown. -- Clifford I have promised to cut down on my swearing and drinking, which I have. Unfortunately, this has left me dim-witted and nearly speechless. Adapted from *The Lion* by Nelson DeMille -or- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. Albert Einstein ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
