Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Allan Mustard]

To be clear, it is not my proposal and I cannot even ride a motorcycle.

The mapper making the wholesale changes, ti-lo/Rtfm,  should submit a
proposal, period, since it appears the issue involves wholesale change of
existing tags, not introduction of new tags.

It may not be a "requirement" but it is the polite or communally proper
thing to do.  If I did it, he can do it.

cheers,
apm



On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 8:01 PM Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I have been contacted at least twice by user:ti-lo about changing the
> tagging of several motorcycle shops I've added over the years. He is a bit
> of an evangelist for the new scheme yet has always been polite while asking
> to change my tags. Recently, I checked to see if the tags were documented
> in the Wiki and learned that the "new tagging" scheme aligned with his
> recommendations. I like the scheme and have always said, sure, go ahead
> never thinking that the Wiki had been modified by him (as user:Rtfm) to
> push the scheme he favors.
>
> I don't think it's good policy to discourage mappers from coming up with a
> new tagging scheme. However, such wholesale changes should be discussed
> fully here and perhaps elsewhere but, as someone else pointed out, trying
> to get anything approved by the tagging list is a long struggle that often
> ends in stalemate. I have often been frustrated by the endless
> deliberations that occur on this list when even a relatively small change
> in tagging has been suggested.
>
> Consequently, my opinion about what to do is mixed. Certainly, a full
> discussion is warranted before going ahead.
>
> Best,
> Dave
>
> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 5:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 06/01/19 06:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> >
>> > sent from a phone
>> >
>> >> On 5. Jan 2019, at 08:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".
>> >
>> > you can use any tags you like in your mapping, but that doesn’t imply
>> “changing” tags. It is one thing adding motorcycle:* tags, and another
>> removing “old style” tags.
>> > Or changing the value of a “standard key” from something well known to
>> something “new” (not established) (provided the well known value applies
>> according to common understanding).
>>
>> Thanks for reading the words and not adding to there meaning :)
>>
>> I too do not encourage changing current tags to some other tag. Only with
>> depreciated tags would I encourage there replacement with more current tag
>> use.
>>
>> >
>> > And it doesn’t imply changing the tagging recommendations in the wiki
>> unilaterally. You can do this on your user page, but not in the common
>> space.
>> >
>> > I agree with Allan’s proposition and ask him to set up a proposal.
>>
>> Rather than 'set up a proposal' I would ask the contributor (and that is
>> not Allen) to discuss the matter here.
>>
>> Possible problems are that the contributor does not have good English
>> skills and maybe reactant to enter into that problem area combined with the
>> problem of tagging.
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Dave Swarthout]

I have been contacted at least twice by user:ti-lo about changing the
tagging of several motorcycle shops I've added over the years. He is a bit
of an evangelist for the new scheme yet has always been polite while asking
to change my tags. Recently, I checked to see if the tags were documented
in the Wiki and learned that the "new tagging" scheme aligned with his
recommendations. I like the scheme and have always said, sure, go ahead
never thinking that the Wiki had been modified by him (as user:Rtfm) to
push the scheme he favors.

I don't think it's good policy to discourage mappers from coming up with a
new tagging scheme. However, such wholesale changes should be discussed
fully here and perhaps elsewhere but, as someone else pointed out, trying
to get anything approved by the tagging list is a long struggle that often
ends in stalemate. I have often been frustrated by the endless
deliberations that occur on this list when even a relatively small change
in tagging has been suggested.

Consequently, my opinion about what to do is mixed. Certainly, a full
discussion is warranted before going ahead.

Best,
Dave

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 5:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 06/01/19 06:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> >> On 5. Jan 2019, at 08:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".
> >
> > you can use any tags you like in your mapping, but that doesn’t imply
> “changing” tags. It is one thing adding motorcycle:* tags, and another
> removing “old style” tags.
> > Or changing the value of a “standard key” from something well known to
> something “new” (not established) (provided the well known value applies
> according to common understanding).
>
> Thanks for reading the words and not adding to there meaning :)
>
> I too do not encourage changing current tags to some other tag. Only with
> depreciated tags would I encourage there replacement with more current tag
> use.
>
> >
> > And it doesn’t imply changing the tagging recommendations in the wiki
> unilaterally. You can do this on your user page, but not in the common
> space.
> >
> > I agree with Allan’s proposition and ask him to set up a proposal.
>
> Rather than 'set up a proposal' I would ask the contributor (and that is
> not Allen) to discuss the matter here.
>
> Possible problems are that the contributor does not have good English
> skills and maybe reactant to enter into that problem area combined with the
> problem of tagging.
>
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Warin]

On 06/01/19 06:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 5. Jan 2019, at 08:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".


you can use any tags you like in your mapping, but that doesn’t imply 
“changing” tags. It is one thing adding motorcycle:* tags, and another removing 
“old style” tags.
Or changing the value of a “standard key” from something well known to 
something “new” (not established) (provided the well known value applies 
according to common understanding).


Thanks for reading the words and not adding to there meaning :)

I too do not encourage changing current tags to some other tag. Only with 
depreciated tags would I encourage there replacement with more current tag use.



And it doesn’t imply changing the tagging recommendations in the wiki 
unilaterally. You can do this on your user page, but not in the common space.

I agree with Allan’s proposition and ask him to set up a proposal.


Rather than 'set up a proposal' I would ask the contributor (and that is not 
Allen) to discuss the matter here.

Possible problems are that the contributor does not have good English skills 
and maybe reactant to enter into that problem area combined with the problem of 
tagging.


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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Warin]

On 06/01/19 04:07, Paul Allen wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 16:33, Hufkratzer > wrote:


Oh, this was new to me; I thought the rule "Any tags you like" only
applies to adding additional tags in the database and not to changing
old tags or to rewrite the documentation. I will keep that in mind.


Yeah, I thought that too.  And it's not so much a guiding principal as 
an admission of laxity.
Nobody can stop you inventing and using any tag you want, but it is 
most certainly NOT
encouraged.  It is preferred that you discuss it here first, and go 
through a formal proposal, in
order to prevent multiple tags for the same objects and/or 
poorly-conceived tags.  We can't

stop you making tags up all by yourself, but we'd prefer it if you didn't.


There is no requirement not to use any new tag that you like. Nor is 
there a requirement to document it.


What 'we' would like is another matter.
As for 'encouragement' the proposal process and then the voting reality 
is far from any from or 'encouragement' .. more like a torture path,
look at the rejected proposals and the way that votes were cast by 
people who took no part in the discussions.


What I would like is some discussion here first. I would highly 
encourage that and have done so in the past.
Then the person can make a decision - used it and document it or make a 
formal proposal.
I no longer encourage people to the tagging list, and certainly not to 
the proposal process.




As for inventing a new tag to replace existing tagging and then going 
around changing existing
tags without consultation, that is borderline vandalism (no matter how 
well conceived your new tag
is).  And then changing the wiki to match your new scheme that you 
discussed with nobody in
order to provide a veneer of retro-active justification, I do consider 
that to be vandalism.  OSM may
be a bit anarchical, but it cannot function unless it is a consensual 
anarchy.


That was not my intent! I quote
-

On 5.1.2019 08:25, Warin wrote:
On 05/01/19 12:57, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Yes, should definitely be a full proposal & discussion before a major 
change is pushed through by one user.


Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".

--
By that I mean "Not mandatory to make a full proposal & discuss before 
introducing new tags. "

I do condone the use of new tags on new entries.




I do not consider this particular advice from Warin to be helpful or 
to reflect the majority opinion.


I do not condone the replacement of tags by new tags that have not been 
discussed and resolved into one being a suitable replacement for the other.

Such discussion should take place on this tagging list  (not elsewhere!).



I hope that is clear?

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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. Jan 2019, at 08:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".


you can use any tags you like in your mapping, but that doesn’t imply 
“changing” tags. It is one thing adding motorcycle:* tags, and another removing 
“old style” tags.
Or changing the value of a “standard key” from something well known to 
something “new” (not established) (provided the well known value applies 
according to common understanding).

And it doesn’t imply changing the tagging recommendations in the wiki 
unilaterally. You can do this on your user page, but not in the common space.

I agree with Allan’s proposition and ask him to set up a proposal.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 16:33, Hufkratzer  wrote:

> Oh, this was new to me; I thought the rule "Any tags you like" only
> applies to adding additional tags in the database and not to changing
> old tags or to rewrite the documentation. I will keep that in mind.
>

Yeah, I thought that too.  And it's not so much a guiding principal as an
admission of laxity.
Nobody can stop you inventing and using any tag you want, but it is most
certainly NOT
encouraged.  It is preferred that you discuss it here first, and go through
a formal proposal, in
order to prevent multiple tags for the same objects and/or poorly-conceived
tags.  We can't
stop you making tags up all by yourself, but we'd prefer it if you didn't.

As for inventing a new tag to replace existing tagging and then going
around changing existing
tags without consultation, that is borderline vandalism (no matter how well
conceived your new tag
is).  And then changing the wiki to match your new scheme that you
discussed with nobody in
order to provide a veneer of retro-active justification, I do consider that
to be vandalism.  OSM may
be a bit anarchical, but it cannot function unless it is a consensual
anarchy.

I do not consider this particular advice from Warin to be helpful or to
reflect the majority opinion.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Hufkratzer]

Oh, this was new to me; I thought the rule "Any tags you like" only 
applies to adding additional tags in the database and not to changing 
old tags or to rewrite the documentation. I will keep that in mind.


On 5.1.2019 08:25, Warin wrote:

On 05/01/19 12:57, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Yes, should definitely be a full proposal & discussion before a major 
change is pushed through by one user.


Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".


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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Warin]

On 05/01/19 12:57, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Yes, should definitely be a full proposal & discussion before a major 
change is pushed through by one user.


Not mandatory in OSM ... "Any tags you like".


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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Yes, should definitely be a full proposal & discussion before a major
change is pushed through by one user.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Warin]

I would like a 'discussion' with the user on the tagging list.

The tagging "sale" will generate 'discussion' with me ... I think that should 
be 'sells'. I have voiced that before on this list, my view has not changed.


On 05/01/19 09:12, Allan Mustard wrote:

Hmmm.  Having recently shepherded a proposal, and one which in the end was 
radically different from my original version due to valuable input from the OSM 
community, I say tell him to make a proposal and live with the results of 
voting or face wholesale reversion of his edits.

My two manats’ worth.

Cheers,
Allan Mustard
apm-wa

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 4, 2019, at 4:04 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

Hi,

the DWG has received a complaint about user ti-lo/Rtfm's introduction of
motorcycle tags.

Until 03 April, the shop=motorcycle wiki page contained this:


The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:

sale=yes/brand/used/no/... - sells whole motorcycles
rental=yes/brand/no/... - motorcycle rental
repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - repairs / maintains motorcycles
safety_inspection=yes/no - inspection of safety/emission regulation 
conformance
parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - sells motorcycle parts
clothes=yes/brand/no/... - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
scooters=yes/no/only - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful in Asia
services=... - other services this shop offers

Rtfm (which is ti-lo's account on the wiki) then removed any mention of
these tags and the word "proposal", instead added a table


Optional (compare with "Additional keys" in shop=bicycle)
keyvaluesdescriptiontaginfo
motorcycle:salesyes/no/usedsells motorbikes / used=only second hand / 
yes;used=both new and used
motorcycle:rentalyes/no/trailermotorbike rental / motorbike trailer 
rental (Both: yes;trailer)
motorcycle:repairyes/nomotorbike repair
motorcycle:partsyes/nosells parts
motorcycle:tyresyes/nosells tyres (may also be used in combination with 
shop=tyres)
motorcycle:clothesyes/nosells clothes
motorcycle:type

Rtfm proceeded to execute an undiscussed mass edit on the OSM database
which was reverted here:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47664678

However:

* The wiki page has never been changed back
* Rtfm/ti-lo has continued to edit motorcycle shops around the world,
and whenever he touched one e.g. to change the spelling from "Harley
Davidson" to "Harley-Davidson", at the same time also replaced *all* the
old-style tags with his new-style tags again.
* ti-lo hismelf seems to be by far the most prolific user of these tags.

What we have here is not really a classical mechanical edit, but a
one-man crusade to push through their tagging scheme.

I'm not sure how to best deal with this. Normally we don't want to
over-emphasize the proposal and tag voting process and we often say "you
can just use a tag and it'll eventually be used by others too". But that
doesn't really apply to changing established tags. Even if it is for the
better - the complaint we have is really not so much about the new
tagging scheme but about the way in which it was established.

Opinions?

Should we revert the wiki page to the old version and revert all the
motorcycle:* tags that ti-lo changed from old-style to motorcycle:*?

Or ask him to run a proper proposal process until $DEADLINE under threat
of doing the above?

Or just shrug and let him have his way?

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] motorcycle tagging

[Allan Mustard]

Hmmm.  Having recently shepherded a proposal, and one which in the end was 
radically different from my original version due to valuable input from the OSM 
community, I say tell him to make a proposal and live with the results of 
voting or face wholesale reversion of his edits.  

My two manats’ worth.

Cheers,
Allan Mustard
apm-wa

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2019, at 4:04 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> the DWG has received a complaint about user ti-lo/Rtfm's introduction of
> motorcycle tags.
> 
> Until 03 April, the shop=motorcycle wiki page contained this:
> 
>> The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:
>> 
>>sale=yes/brand/used/no/... - sells whole motorcycles
>>rental=yes/brand/no/... - motorcycle rental
>>repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - repairs / maintains motorcycles
>>safety_inspection=yes/no - inspection of safety/emission regulation 
>> conformance
>>parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/... - sells motorcycle parts
>>clothes=yes/brand/no/... - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
>>scooters=yes/no/only - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful in Asia
>>services=... - other services this shop offers
> 
> Rtfm (which is ti-lo's account on the wiki) then removed any mention of
> these tags and the word "proposal", instead added a table
> 
>> Optional (compare with "Additional keys" in shop=bicycle)
>> keyvaluesdescriptiontaginfo
>> motorcycle:salesyes/no/usedsells motorbikes / used=only second hand 
>> / yes;used=both new and used
>> motorcycle:rentalyes/no/trailermotorbike rental / motorbike trailer 
>> rental (Both: yes;trailer)
>> motorcycle:repairyes/nomotorbike repair
>> motorcycle:partsyes/nosells parts
>> motorcycle:tyresyes/nosells tyres (may also be used in combination 
>> with shop=tyres)
>> motorcycle:clothesyes/nosells clothes
>> motorcycle:type
> 
> Rtfm proceeded to execute an undiscussed mass edit on the OSM database
> which was reverted here:
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47664678
> 
> However:
> 
> * The wiki page has never been changed back
> * Rtfm/ti-lo has continued to edit motorcycle shops around the world,
> and whenever he touched one e.g. to change the spelling from "Harley
> Davidson" to "Harley-Davidson", at the same time also replaced *all* the
> old-style tags with his new-style tags again.
> * ti-lo hismelf seems to be by far the most prolific user of these tags.
> 
> What we have here is not really a classical mechanical edit, but a
> one-man crusade to push through their tagging scheme.
> 
> I'm not sure how to best deal with this. Normally we don't want to
> over-emphasize the proposal and tag voting process and we often say "you
> can just use a tag and it'll eventually be used by others too". But that
> doesn't really apply to changing established tags. Even if it is for the
> better - the complaint we have is really not so much about the new
> tagging scheme but about the way in which it was established.
> 
> Opinions?
> 
> Should we revert the wiki page to the old version and revert all the
> motorcycle:* tags that ti-lo changed from old-style to motorcycle:*?
> 
> Or ask him to run a proper proposal process until $DEADLINE under threat
> of doing the above?
> 
> Or just shrug and let him have his way?
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
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