Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Chris Jones]

On 26 Mar 2018, at 13:04, Gregory  wrote:
> 
> The OpenStreetMap rule for all time has been "what's on the ground is what we 
> use", in the case of names that would be what's on the road signs.
> 
> I was in Wales last week and saw a mix of road names (I didn't focus on place 
> names, but it should still stand):
> 1) Welsh on top line, English below.
> 2) English on top line, Welsh below.
> 3) Welsh only.
> It seemed consistent for areas, maybe relating to how old the streets were or 
> politics - I think this is interesting enough.
> 
> I would tag it the streets always with 2-3 name tags...
> A) name:cy and name:en used whenever they are present on a sign. Do not 
> transliterate. When we have a complete map, this then provides insight into 
> the areas (where and % of roads) actually have Bilingual names.
> B) You should additionally add a "name" value. My preference is for the name 
> on the top line. I can see the argument for putting both/all names in, but I 
> think this gets messy as OpenStreetMap doesn't have the concept of a 
> separator.

Using the top line for name is a good idea historically, however the new(ish) 
Welsh Language Standards legislation is likely to mean that new signage 
throughout Wales have Welsh on top regardless of local usage.

—
Chris
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Warin]

Hummm 

There area number of places around me that have name:ru ... yet there 
are no signs with this language on them.

And there are some in other languages too...

I see nothing wrong with that. These names do not have to be present on 
a local sign.


So I see nothing wrong with having name:cy where you may not find a sign 
with that Welsh name on it.


The "name" tag value should carry the value that the majority use in the 
local community, if that is reflected on local signs, good.


For rendering .. I would use the 'name' value where I wanted a map with 
the local names/languages.
Where I wanted to produce a map in a certain language - say English I 
would use the 'name:en', if that does not exist I'd use the fall back 
'name'.



On 26/03/18 23:04, Gregory wrote:
The OpenStreetMap rule for all time has been "what's on the ground is 
what we use", in the case of names that would be what's on the road 
signs.


I was in Wales last week and saw a mix of road names (I didn't focus 
on place names, but it should still stand):

1)Welshon top line, English below.
2) English on top line,Welshbelow.
3)Welshonly.
It seemed consistent for areas, maybe relating to how old the streets 
were or politics - I think this is interesting enough.


I would tag it the streets always with 2-3 name tags...
A) name:cy and name:en used whenever they are present on a sign. Do 
not transliterate. When we have a complete map, this then provides 
insight into the areas (where and % of roads) actually have Bilingual 
names.
B) You should additionally add a "name" value. My preference is for 
the name on the top line. I can see the argument for putting both/all 
names in, but I think this gets messy as OpenStreetMap doesn't have 
the concept of a separator.


The "name" tag is a used as a fallback (what a German-language map 
would show, what aWelsh-language map would show if no name:cy, etc). 
You should think of it as a fallback name, rather than a default name.
This can then provide us with insight, what streets haveWelshas the 
primary name (name:cy = name)?



While in Wales, I did do some filming so I could demonstrate how to 
map bilingual names/places. I've not finished the editing yet, but can 
share a link when it's published.



From England,
Gregory.


On 25 March 2018 at 23:13, ajt1...@gmail.com 
 > wrote:


On 25/03/2018 21:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:

...
Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names,
for a generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.


Can you give a specific example of that?  Are you saying that
"it's important to pretend that Welsh names are displayed even
where they aren't used very often" by sticking them on the end of
the more commonly used name? The other way around (using Welsh in
"name" because it is the most used name) presumably wouldn't
"undermine ... Welsh names".  It could be that I'm completely
misunderstanding what you're saying here but I really don't follow
the argument at all.



Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.


That's great news - it'll allow maps like
https://openstreetmap.cymru/ (and mine!) to render appropriate
names in appropriate areas.



On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies > wrote:

  * The fundamental problem is that there is no "name"
which is correct. In the medium term, as long as the
name:cy and name:en are correct then the value of
"name" should become less significant. Then it can be
up to the user to decide if they want to display
English, Welsh or both (and if both which language
taking priority).

The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.



I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of at least
3 choices right now:

  * OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which just use
the "name" tag:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565


  * Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":


https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407=-5.264972448348999=17



  * Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en", "name:ga" or
"name" depending on location:



http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18=51.883531=-5.264898



and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.) can do
whatever they want.

Best Regards,

Andy

PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the list -
I'm guessing that it was but that he's actually not 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Gregory]

The OpenStreetMap rule for all time has been "what's on the ground is what
we use", in the case of names that would be what's on the road signs.

I was in Wales last week and saw a mix of road names (I didn't focus on
place names, but it should still stand):
1) Welsh on top line, English below.
2) English on top line, Welsh below.
3) Welsh only.
It seemed consistent for areas, maybe relating to how old the streets were
or politics - I think this is interesting enough.

I would tag it the streets always with 2-3 name tags...
A) name:cy and name:en used whenever they are present on a sign. Do not
transliterate. When we have a complete map, this then provides insight into
the areas (where and % of roads) actually have Bilingual names.
B) You should additionally add a "name" value. My preference is for the
name on the top line. I can see the argument for putting both/all names in,
but I think this gets messy as OpenStreetMap doesn't have the concept of a
separator.

The "name" tag is a used as a fallback (what a German-language map would
show, what a Welsh-language map would show if no name:cy, etc). You should
think of it as a fallback name, rather than a default name.
This can then provide us with insight, what streets have Welsh as the
primary name (name:cy = name)?


While in Wales, I did do some filming so I could demonstrate how to map
bilingual names/places. I've not finished the editing yet, but can share a
link when it's published.


>From England,
Gregory.


On 25 March 2018 at 23:13, ajt1...@gmail.com  wrote:

> On 25/03/2018 21:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>
> ...
> Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names, for a
> generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.
>
>
> Can you give a specific example of that?  Are you saying that "it's
> important to pretend that Welsh names are displayed even where they aren't
> used very often" by sticking them on the end of the more commonly used
> name?  The other way around (using Welsh in "name" because it is the most
> used name) presumably wouldn't "undermine ... Welsh names".  It could be
> that I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying here but I really
> don't follow the argument at all.
>
>
> Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.
>
>
> That's great news - it'll allow maps like https://openstreetmap.cymru/
> (and mine!) to render appropriate names in appropriate areas.
>
>
> On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies  wrote:
>
>>
>>>- The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is
>>>correct. In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are 
>>> correct
>>>then the value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be 
>>> up
>>>to the user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and
>>>if both which language taking priority).
>>>
>>> The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.
>>
>
> I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of at least 3
> choices right now:
>
>
>- OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which just use the
>"name" tag:
>
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565
>
>
>- Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":
>
>
> https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407=-5.
> 264972448348999=17
>
>
>- Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en", "name:ga" or "name"
>depending on location:
>
>
> http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18=
> 51.883531=-5.264898
>
> and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.) can do whatever
> they want.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the list - I'm
> guessing that it was but that he's actually not subscribed yet and his
> reply went both to that and Miguel.
>
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>
>


-- 
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http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/03/2018 21:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:

...
Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names, for a 
generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.


Can you give a specific example of that?  Are you saying that "it's 
important to pretend that Welsh names are displayed even where they 
aren't used very often" by sticking them on the end of the more commonly 
used name?  The other way around (using Welsh in "name" because it is 
the most used name) presumably wouldn't "undermine ... Welsh names".  It 
could be that I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying here 
but I really don't follow the argument at all.




Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.


That's great news - it'll allow maps like https://openstreetmap.cymru/ 
(and mine!) to render appropriate names in appropriate areas.



On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies > wrote:


  * The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which
is correct. In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and
name:en are correct then the value of "name" should become
less significant. Then it can be up to the user to decide
if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if
both which language taking priority).

The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.



I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of at least 3 
choices right now:


 * OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which just use the
   "name" tag:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565

 * Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":


https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407=-5.264972448348999=17

 * Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en", "name:ga" or "name"
   depending on location:


http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18=51.883531=-5.264898

and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.) can do whatever 
they want.


Best Regards,

Andy

PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the list - I'm 
guessing that it was but that he's actually not subscribed yet and his 
reply went both to that and Miguel.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Adam Snape]

I'm not sure about other countries, but one thing I did notice when living
in Wales is that there did seem in many (most) cases to be a consistently
preferred name. For this reason there is a problem automatically adding
name:en for an English variant of a name where most English speakers would
use the Welsh name. Someone wishing to render a map for English speakers
would end up rendering legitimate but antiquated or seldom used English
names rather than the Welsh name that most English speakers would actually
use. Thus, I would caution against a separate name:en tag where the name
tag already carries the name preferred by English speakers.I would suggest
alt_name:en or old_name:en respectively for less common variants.

The same argument applies to the (somewhat rarer) places where the English
names are preferred by Welsh speakers. Over enthusiasm amongst some
councils in recent decades has sometimes resulted in places signed with
ancient or newly-contrived Welsh translations of names. IIRC the Welsh
Language Board was somewhat critical of this behaviour. If the names have
no currency amongst Welsh speakers, I would advise against a name:cy tag,
preferring alt_name:cy, old_name:cy or official_name:cy.

Regards,

Adam
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Hello,

As a foreigner and someone arriving to a place where people are using both
languages (my experience is living for almost 2 years in Aberystwyth, North
Wales) I'm still thinking you should use both names for "name" tag as you
can see on official maps (not only OS maps) or signs. I'm thinking in
street names not in place names, where you could have more idea if Welsh or
English name is common.

Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names, for a
generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.

Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.

Moreover, there is nothing except an aesthetic problem, to use the "mix"
approach for "name". What's the point to not use same approach used in
other multilingual places of the World?

May be we could discuss that in the generic/global Talk mail list to know
other opinions.

Cheers

Miguel

--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor en Geografía

On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies  wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> A general response to your points:
>
>>
>>- There is no single name for many places. In Wales most places have
>>a name that they are called when communicating in English and a name that
>>they are called when communicating in Welsh. In neither language are both
>>names used.
>>
>>  Informally some English names are used in Welsh, but vice versa is less
> likely.
>
>>
>>- So the most important thing is that we label them with the English
>>and Welsh name tags
>>
>>
>>- What then should we include in the "name" tag? Including both
>>alternates seems, at first sight, like an attractive solution.
>>
>> It should be noted that both OS and Harvey maps generally include both
> names, it would be nice if the default OSM renderer reflected this.
>
>
>>
>>- But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
>>have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use both in 
>> the
>>name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury - Amwythig are in
>>England and, I suspect, there would not be support to use bilingual names
>>in OSM outside of the current boundary of Wales. I don't challenge that 
>> but
>>I'd see it as a political judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the
>>status of the Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a
>>mapping decision.
>>
>> The two examples mentioned are in English only on an OS maps, but
> Oswestry (Croesoswallt) is named in both English and Welsh, despite being
> over the border.
>
>>
>>- In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
>>when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and least
>>politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.
>>
>> OS maps including both, although arguably this is a rendering problem.
> Why shouldn't OSM reflect this?
>
>>
>>- The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is
>>correct. In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are 
>> correct
>>then the value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be up
>>to the user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and
>>if both which language taking priority).
>>
>> The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.
>
> Regards
> Curon
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/03/2018 16:18, Ben Proctor wrote:
(snip)


  * But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use
both in the name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury -
Amwythig are in England and, I suspect, there would not be support
to use bilingual names in OSM outside of the current boundary of
Wales. I don't challenge that but I'd see it as a political
judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the status of the
Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a mapping
decision.



Personally, I'd say there's just as much a case for a Welsh language map 
that also shows welsh names as the "default name" for use by Welsh 
speakers as there is an English-names map for English speakers and a 
German-names map for German speakers.  Which name any individual map 
chooses to show is as you say up to it.



  * In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and
least politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.



Actually I'd disagree here - I'd suggest "... most commonly used name" 
(which might be one of at least Welsh, English or Gaelic, depending on 
the languages locally in use).  I wouldn't use an English name for a 
place as "name" in a primarily Welsh-speaking area.  I don't think that 
English should have a special status in the OSM database, even for 
places in the UK.


I'd absolutely agree that getting "name:en" and "name:cy" added for 
names in use makes sense though.


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi Adam

That makes sense to me. So for example..?

name - Caernarfon
name:cy - Caernarfon
old_name:en Carnarvon

Cheers

Ben




On 24 March 2018 at 21:17, Adam Snape  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think Ben's suggestion is sensible where there is a consistent and clear
> preference.
>
> As name:en is for the standard English name, I suggest avoiding using that
> tag for English names where the Welsh name is now also the more common one
> used in English. That said, I think avriant names are always worth adding.
> I would suggest using alt_name (if a name is still used by some) or
> old_name (if it is now out of usage).
>
> Regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 16:04, Ben Proctor  wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
>> Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
>> their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
>> Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
>> Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *
>>
>> *In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
>> communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
>> doubt look for local usage / signage.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
>> place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
>> may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
>> name in Welsh.*
>>
>> *Examples:*
>> *name - Swansea*
>> *name:cy - Abertawe*
>>
>> *name - Caernarfon*
>> *name:cy - Caernarfon*
>>
>> *name - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:en - Church Road*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape  wrote:
>>
>>> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
>>> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
>>> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
>>> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or
>>> 'alternative' (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because
>>> there is no consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>>>
>>> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
>>> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
>>> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
>>> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
>>> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F  wrote:
>>>

 On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:

> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
>>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not
>> dictate how they should map.
>>
>
> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method,
> not what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for 
> example!).
>

 +1

 DaveF


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>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ben Proctor, Technical Director
>>
>> *The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK
>> 
>>
>> b...@satorilab.org | @likeawor d | 07904
>> 1234 98 | LinkedIn 
>>
>> We provide culture change services
>> 
>>  |
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi Miguel

Thanks for the thoughts.

Personally I'm against bilingual labelling though I recognise that this is
common and uncontroversial in other parts of OSM.

My thought process has been like this:

   - There is no single name for many places. In Wales most places have a
   name that they are called when communicating in English and a name that
   they are called when communicating in Welsh. In neither language are both
   names used.
   - So the most important thing is that we label them with the English and
   Welsh name tags.
   - What then should we include in the "name" tag? Including both
   alternates seems, at first sight, like an attractive solution.
   - But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
   have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use both in the
   name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury - Amwythig are in
   England and, I suspect, there would not be support to use bilingual names
   in OSM outside of the current boundary of Wales. I don't challenge that but
   I'd see it as a political judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the
   status of the Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a
   mapping decision.
   - In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
   when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and least
   politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.
   - The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is correct.
   In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are correct then the
   value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be up to the
   user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if both
   which language taking priority).

To address your specific question [3] what I would do when seeing a panel
displaying the Welsh and English name would be to add the values to name:en
and name:cy and then add one of those to the name tag. The choice of which
one to add to the name tag would be:
- if I know which one is used when communicating in English, choose that
- of I don't know, choose the Welsh name

But I'd be interested to understand more about the practice used in other
bilingual/multilingual nations on OSM.

Cheers

Ben


On 23 March 2018 at 23:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
wrote:

> Great initiative! Congratulations Ben,
>
> I'm sure you have more knowledge than me about the use of Welsh but I'd
> considerate an other the option for your propose for the generic "name"
> tag: the bilingual one.
>
> So, as I suggested last summer [1], and it was in the previous edition of
> the wiki, I'd use, for some situations (e.g. Aberytwyth street names) both
> languages in "name" tag with a "/" as separation following the indications
> and panels you could see in the field [2]. I guess It is a neutral an a
> real bilingual approach for a non English or Welsh render of OSM maps.
>
> What do you expect if I'm editing OSM in the ground and I see a bilingual
> panels to fill for the name tag? Well, I did what I saw: a bilingual name
> as you could see in other bilingual places of the World like Basque Country
> [3].
>
> Cheers
>
> Miguel
>
> [1] follow this threat from the beginning: https://lists.openstreetmap.
> org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020465.html
> [2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Spain
>
> --
> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
> Doctor en Geografía
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 17:04, Ben Proctor  wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
>> Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
>> their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
>> Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
>> Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *
>>
>> *In general the 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Great initiative! Congratulations Ben,

I'm sure you have more knowledge than me about the use of Welsh but I'd
considerate an other the option for your propose for the generic "name"
tag: the bilingual one.

So, as I suggested last summer [1], and it was in the previous edition of
the wiki, I'd use, for some situations (e.g. Aberytwyth street names) both
languages in "name" tag with a "/" as separation following the indications
and panels you could see in the field [2]. I guess It is a neutral an a
real bilingual approach for a non English or Welsh render of OSM maps.

What do you expect if I'm editing OSM in the ground and I see a bilingual
panels to fill for the name tag? Well, I did what I saw: a bilingual name
as you could see in other bilingual places of the World like Basque Country
[3].

Cheers

Miguel

[1] follow this threat from the beginning:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020465.html
[2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Spain

--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor en Geografía

On 23 March 2018 at 17:04, Ben Proctor  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it was
> in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project in
> Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>
> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>
> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ben
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
> Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
> their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
> Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
> Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *
>
> *In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
> communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
> doubt look for local usage / signage.*
>
>
>
> *Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
> place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
> may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
> name in Welsh.*
>
> *Examples:*
> *name - Swansea*
> *name:cy - Abertawe*
>
> *name - Caernarfon*
> *name:cy - Caernarfon*
>
> *name - Heol Eglyws*
> *name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
> *name:en - Church Road*
>
>
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape  wrote:
>
>> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
>> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
>> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
>> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or 'alternative'
>> (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because there is no
>> consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>>
>> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
>> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
>> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
>> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
>> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:
>>>
 On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:

>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not
> dictate how they should map.
>

 I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method,
 not what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for 
 example!).

>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> DaveF
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-GB mailing list
>>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ben Proctor, Technical Director
>
> *The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK
>
> b...@satorilab.org | @likeawor 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi all

I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it was
in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project in
Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm in
Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue this
work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in Wales.
Here are the blogs about the project in English
http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/

We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
section of the Wiki
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.

Cheers

Ben






*Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *

*In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
doubt look for local usage / signage.*



*Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
name in Welsh.*

*Examples:*
*name - Swansea*
*name:cy - Abertawe*

*name - Caernarfon*
*name:cy - Caernarfon*

*name - Heol Eglyws*
*name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
*name:en - Church Road*



On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape  wrote:

> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or 'alternative'
> (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because there is no
> consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>
> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>
> Adam
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:
>>
>>> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>>
   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not dictate
 how they should map.

>>>
>>> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method, not
>>> what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for example!).
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> DaveF
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>


-- 
Ben Proctor, Technical Director

*The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK

b...@satorilab.org | @likeawor d | 07904 1234
98 | LinkedIn 

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|
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Adam Snape]

The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or 'alternative'
(highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because there is no
consensus and existing use counts for a lot.

If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should be
documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we actually
currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
how we ought to map (but don't yet).

Adam

On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F  wrote:

>
> On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:
>
>> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>
>>>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not dictate
>>> how they should map.
>>>
>>
>> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method, not
>> what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for example!).
>>
>
> +1
>
> DaveF
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Dave F]

On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:

On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
  The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not 
dictate how they should map.


I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method, 
not what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for 
example!).


+1

DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Warin]

On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:

  The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not dictate how 
they should map.


I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method, not what 
people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for example!).



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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Philip Barnes]

On 15 August 2017 19:27:40 BST, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>On 15/08/2017 19:22, Brian Prangle wrote:
>> But even local authorities and the OS get into hot water  over names 
>>
>!(but
>
>> to be fair this is a placename rather than a street name with a 
>> verifiable sign)
>
>As a kid I always thought that was called "Traeth Beach" because that's
>
And you are never far from Gorsaf Station. 

A true story,  a grad from Wales was telling me that when he was at uni, some 
English friends were going to visit him. He got a phone call to say 'we have 
just passed Gwasanaethau Services. 

We do map what we see, but we also present it in a way that makes sense. The 
same name twice in different languages looks wrong and that we end up with the 
River Avon. 

The Araf/Slow rule, or the first language on the sign is a pretty good way of 
dealing with what name goes in the name tag and that seems to been the 
consensus over many years of different map is mapping in Wales. The wiki is 
after all intended to document how people map not dictate how they should map. 
The recent changes have not actually changed any method of mapping but nearly 
clarified what was already there in previous versions. 

Phil (trigpoint) 

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/08/2017 19:22, Brian Prangle wrote:
But even local authorities and the OS get into hot water  over names 
!(but 
to be fair this is a placename rather than a street name with a 
verifiable sign)


As a kid I always thought that was called "Traeth Beach" because that's 
what the sign said :)


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Brian Prangle]

But even local authorities and the OS get into hot water  over names
!(but
to be fair this is a placename rather than a street name with a verifiable
sign)

On 15 August 2017 at 18:58, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> I think fixing the wiki at this stage is a bit premature as I wasn't aware
> the discussion had finished with an agreed consensus. I admit it's
> difficult with so  few contributors in Wales and so we may end up with the
> revisionas it stands. I'm still perplexed as to how a mapper responds to a
> dual language street sign when we're always encouraged to map "what's on
> the ground"?  Does anyone know what the  policies of Welsh local
> authorities, the Welsh Language Commisioner and the Ordance Survey are with
> respect to mapping street names ?  I'm not even going near the discussion
> about placenames
>
> If it's any help I found these policies online:
>
> Denbighshire
>
> The policy in relation to new street names will therefore be to adopt
> either a Welsh language name or a bilingual name that is consistent with
> the local heritage and history of the area.
>
> Existing street names that are in only one language will not be
> translated except where a request is made to re-name the street as per the
> renaming process in Section B.paragraph 4.(below)
>
> Where a query arises over a place name, the council will consult the
> Welsh Language Commissioner’s place name advisory service.
>
> It is recognised that many databases can only hold one version of an
> address. With bilingual addresses it is Royal Mail’s policy to only publish
> the English version of addresses whilst holding the Welsh version in the
> background
>
>
> Merthyr Tydfil
>
>
> The Council has a Bilingual Policy. This means that where a street has an
> English name the street name plate is to have the English name at the top
> and the Welsh translation underneath.
>
> Where the street has a Welsh name or any other language other than
> English, there is no translation
>
>
> Newport Council
>
>
> Since the Council has the right to decide on the names of new streets, it
> recognisesthe importance of giving consideration to local opinion. The
> policy in relation to new street names will therefore be to adopt
> abilingual name that is consistent with thelocal heritage and history of
> the area.
>
> Following approval of the policy all new street names will be in English
> and Welsh with each having equal status and neither having preference over
> the other.
>
> There will be no change to existing street names and these will remain in
> the ‘known’ language to mitigate potential confusion.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> On 15 August 2017 at 10:19, Adam Snape  wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure of Wiki-editing etiquette but I support the views expressed
>> by Richard. The name tag should contain the primary name of an object, not
>> multiple names. Swansea-Abertawe is no more the name of a place than Duddon
>> Valley - Dunnerdale is. In the absence of knowledge of local usage, using
>> the primary name on signage does seem the best option and is entirely
>> consistent with how we map other names in the UK.
>>
>> I sense a desire to give Welsh names equal billing with English ones
>> wherever both exist. Others have mentioned how odd this would be in some
>> areas where the Welsh name is rarely used by anybody. There are other areas
>> where the Welsh name is the main name and the English (often merely
>> Anglicised) name is now archaic. For example, Conwy is infinitely more
>> common amongst English speakers than Conway. name=Conwy - Conway would be
>> ridiculous. Similarly, to appropriate Miguel's earlier example, Ceredigion
>> is preferred by speakers of both languages.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>> On 15 Aug 2017 12:27 a.m., "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>>>
 I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.

>>>
>> Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and I
>> have made a few changes without comment.
>>
>>
>>> I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.
>>>
>>> If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify
>>> your changes and get agreement.
>>>
>>
>> Agreement with who?
>>
>> If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and
>> then hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.
>> Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and
>> add to it.
>>
>>  If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>
>>
>> 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Brian Prangle]

I think fixing the wiki at this stage is a bit premature as I wasn't aware
the discussion had finished with an agreed consensus. I admit it's
difficult with so  few contributors in Wales and so we may end up with the
revisionas it stands. I'm still perplexed as to how a mapper responds to a
dual language street sign when we're always encouraged to map "what's on
the ground"?  Does anyone know what the  policies of Welsh local
authorities, the Welsh Language Commisioner and the Ordance Survey are with
respect to mapping street names ?  I'm not even going near the discussion
about placenames

If it's any help I found these policies online:

Denbighshire

The policy in relation to new street names will therefore be to adopt
either a Welsh language name or a bilingual name that is consistent with
the local heritage and history of the area.

Existing street names that are in only one language will not be translated
except where a request is made to re-name the street as per the renaming
process in Section B.paragraph 4.(below)

Where a query arises over a place name, the council will consult the Welsh
Language Commissioner’s place name advisory service.

It is recognised that many databases can only hold one version of an
address. With bilingual addresses it is Royal Mail’s policy to only publish
the English version of addresses whilst holding the Welsh version in the
background


Merthyr Tydfil


The Council has a Bilingual Policy. This means that where a street has an
English name the street name plate is to have the English name at the top
and the Welsh translation underneath.

Where the street has a Welsh name or any other language other than English,
there is no translation


Newport Council


Since the Council has the right to decide on the names of new streets, it
recognisesthe importance of giving consideration to local opinion. The
policy in relation to new street names will therefore be to adopt
abilingual name that is consistent with thelocal heritage and history of
the area.

Following approval of the policy all new street names will be in English
and Welsh with each having equal status and neither having preference over
the other.

There will be no change to existing street names and these will remain in
the ‘known’ language to mitigate potential confusion.


Regards


Brian



On 15 August 2017 at 10:19, Adam Snape  wrote:

> I'm not sure of Wiki-editing etiquette but I support the views expressed
> by Richard. The name tag should contain the primary name of an object, not
> multiple names. Swansea-Abertawe is no more the name of a place than Duddon
> Valley - Dunnerdale is. In the absence of knowledge of local usage, using
> the primary name on signage does seem the best option and is entirely
> consistent with how we map other names in the UK.
>
> I sense a desire to give Welsh names equal billing with English ones
> wherever both exist. Others have mentioned how odd this would be in some
> areas where the Welsh name is rarely used by anybody. There are other areas
> where the Welsh name is the main name and the English (often merely
> Anglicised) name is now archaic. For example, Conwy is infinitely more
> common amongst English speakers than Conway. name=Conwy - Conway would be
> ridiculous. Similarly, to appropriate Miguel's earlier example, Ceredigion
> is preferred by speakers of both languages.
>
> Regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
> On 15 Aug 2017 12:27 a.m., "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>
>> On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>>
>>> I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.
>>>
>>
> Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and I
> have made a few changes without comment.
>
>
>> I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.
>>
>> If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify
>> your changes and get agreement.
>>
>
> Agreement with who?
>
> If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and
> then hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.
> Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and
> add to it.
>
>  If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[paul.bivand]

Just seen. And may be relevant 
http://discoversociety.org/2017/08/02/policy-and-politics-revitalising-minority-languages-in-a-period-of-social-transformation/?utm_content=buffer386e1_medium=social_source=twitter.com_campaign=buffer.
 
Hides
Paul
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 Original message From: Adam Snape <adam.c.sn...@gmail.com> 
Date: 15/08/2017  10:19  (GMT+00:00) To: Talk GB <talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales 
I'm not sure of Wiki-editing etiquette but I support the views expressed by 
Richard. The name tag should contain the primary name of an object, not 
multiple names. Swansea-Abertawe is no more the name of a place than Duddon 
Valley - Dunnerdale is. In the absence of knowledge of local usage, using the 
primary name on signage does seem the best option and is entirely consistent 
with how we map other names in the UK.
I sense a desire to give Welsh names equal billing with English ones wherever 
both exist. Others have mentioned how odd this would be in some areas where the 
Welsh name is rarely used by anybody. There are other areas where the Welsh 
name is the main name and the English (often merely Anglicised) name is now 
archaic. For example, Conwy is infinitely more common amongst English speakers 
than Conway. name=Conwy - Conway would be ridiculous. Similarly, to appropriate 
Miguel's earlier example, Ceredigion is preferred by speakers of both languages.
Regards,
Adam

On 15 Aug 2017 12:27 a.m., "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:


On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:


I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.




Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and I have 
made a few changes without comment.




I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.



If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify your 
changes and get agreement.




Agreement with who?



If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and then 
hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.

Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and add to 
it.



 If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Adam Snape]

I'm not sure of Wiki-editing etiquette but I support the views expressed by
Richard. The name tag should contain the primary name of an object, not
multiple names. Swansea-Abertawe is no more the name of a place than Duddon
Valley - Dunnerdale is. In the absence of knowledge of local usage, using
the primary name on signage does seem the best option and is entirely
consistent with how we map other names in the UK.

I sense a desire to give Welsh names equal billing with English ones
wherever both exist. Others have mentioned how odd this would be in some
areas where the Welsh name is rarely used by anybody. There are other areas
where the Welsh name is the main name and the English (often merely
Anglicised) name is now archaic. For example, Conwy is infinitely more
common amongst English speakers than Conway. name=Conwy - Conway would be
ridiculous. Similarly, to appropriate Miguel's earlier example, Ceredigion
is preferred by speakers of both languages.

Regards,

Adam


On 15 Aug 2017 12:27 a.m., "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>
>> I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.
>>
>
Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and I
have made a few changes without comment.


> I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.
>
> If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify
> your changes and get agreement.
>

Agreement with who?

If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and then
hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.
Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and add
to it.

 If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Warin]

On 14-Aug-17 11:49 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

On 14/08/2017 14:47, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:

I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.


Ask who?? Don't think there is a formal process to change the wiki, and 
I have made a few changes without comment.


I'm documenting the existing practice in Wales.

If you want to change existing practice, the onus is on you to justify 
your changes and get agreement.


Agreement with who?

If I disagree with with wiki .. I make comment on the talk page .. and 
then hope someone who disagrees, cares, notices and makes a reply.
Where the wiki page does not have much information .. I'll go ahead and 
add to it.


 If it is a tagging issue I'll raise it with the tagging group/list.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

I do not agree your change of the Wiki. You should ask before to do it.

At least you could add a link to this thread or something like "this issue
is under discussion".

Cheers

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from my mobile 

El 14/8/2017 14:30, "Richard Fairhurst"  escribió:

> I've fixed the wiki to reflect Chris's comments, given that he's a resident
> of Wales and has a long pedigree in creating the Welsh-language rendering
> so
> is better qualified than the rest of us to pronounce on this.[1] The much
> shorter text should hopefully also be easier for new mappers to follow.
>
>
> Marc Gemis wrote:
> > my conclusion: please do not map in the UK.
>
> Absolutely not - everyone is and should be welcome. But it's generally good
> practice in OSM, whatever the country, to "be liberal in what you add,
> conservative in what you change". If you find yourself changing vast
> swathes
> of existing data, you should generally ask yourself why it was as it was.
> Sometimes there's a good reason, but that reason is usually TIGER!
>
> Richard
>
> [1] though I'm not going to completely absent myself from this given that I
> partly have a degree in this stuff, as part of which I was fortunate enough
> to be taught by people who know more about Brittonic placenames than pretty
> much anyone ;)
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Richard Fairhurst]

I've fixed the wiki to reflect Chris's comments, given that he's a resident
of Wales and has a long pedigree in creating the Welsh-language rendering so
is better qualified than the rest of us to pronounce on this.[1] The much
shorter text should hopefully also be easier for new mappers to follow.


Marc Gemis wrote:
> my conclusion: please do not map in the UK.

Absolutely not - everyone is and should be welcome. But it's generally good
practice in OSM, whatever the country, to "be liberal in what you add,
conservative in what you change". If you find yourself changing vast swathes
of existing data, you should generally ask yourself why it was as it was.
Sometimes there's a good reason, but that reason is usually TIGER!

Richard

[1] though I'm not going to completely absent myself from this given that I
partly have a degree in this stuff, as part of which I was fortunate enough
to be taught by people who know more about Brittonic placenames than pretty
much anyone ;)



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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Marc Gemis]

hallo,

sorry to say, but so far this thread reads as follows for me

* please do not map what is on the ground
* do not follow the wiki, it's wrong
* join us at a pub meeting and we tell you how to map
* o yes, we do not have pub meetings in remote areas
* you will have to contact half of the British mapping community to
hear their opinion
  (but they do not read the mailing list, nor changeset comments)

my conclusion: please do not map in the UK.

For me, this mean that OSM-UK has to go a long way to attract new
mappers in a friendly way.
It's a pity that even after 13 years, it is not documented properly
how street names in Wales have to be mapped.

I hope this will be fixed next year. I'm planning on a vacation in
Wales and I hope I can contribute by applying the general rules that I
apply now in Belgium. Or that I can find proper documentation on how
to map.

regards

escada

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Andy Townsend]

On 11/08/2017 17:19, Brian Prangle wrote:


...  and goes to the first source of what is seen to be the 
authoritative source - the wiki- to seek guidance,




Unfortunately, the wiki isn't always "the authoritative source". 
Articles written there include both "descriptive" and "prescriptive" 
ones - saying how mappers currently map things, and telling them how 
they _should_ map things.  When it comes to "how to map things" often 
there needs to be a discussion, because no one person has the whole 
picture.  Sometimes people writing wiki articles take great care to 
represent the different views where they exist and try and thread a 
consensus course through them (Harry Wood please take a bow at this 
point); and sometimes they don't.


For example, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalks says that 
"The simplest method is to tag the associated highway with sidewalk 
=both/left/right/no 
(none is sometimes used, but no is preferred 
)", despite 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk#values showing that 
"none" is the more popular value.  I tried to make the wiki reflect 
usage but it was immediately changed back because "The statement never 
described predominant usage, but preferred usage. That hasn't 
changed.".  Clearly someone thinks that _they_ know better than me and 
the majority of sidewalk mappers in OSM.  Rather than "insisting" it is 
correct as per https://www.xkcd.com/386/ I decided that life was too 
short. I suspect that something rather similar has happened with regard 
to language tagging in Wales.



and then asks, from etiquette, what the local community thinks,



To be fair, from reading the emails it doesn't read to me like that was 
what was happening; it reads very much like he was telling everyone that 
disagreed with him that they were wrong without offering any reasoning 
beyond "the wiki says...".


Unfortunately every multiple-language situation is complicated (and with 
a DWG hat on I've been involved in quite a few).  Some communities 
(Belgium being a notable early example) have settled on a compound 
"name" that doesn't reflect any language name on the ground but is 
intended to indicate that both have equal value; some - possibly the 
majority, but not by much - go with name as the "most used value" - so 
"Eteläinen Rautatiekatu" rather than the rather large mouthful 
"Eteläinen Rautatiekatu / Södra Järnvägsgatan"* for the street in 
Helsinki that I used to stay when working there, despite all street 
signs being bilingual.  Some have gone for locally-relevant variations 
of both.  However it's always the wishes of the local mappers that 
should hold most sway (and, again from personal experience with a DWG 
hat on, that can get difficult when one community is under-represented 
in OSM).


*Can this discussion specifically address what is wrong with the wiki 
page on Welsh placenames 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales and 
suggest improvements?*




I'd start by asking some more Welsh mappers!  So far we've had the 
person who created the original cyosm map arguing against a compound 
name, along with a number of (very) frequent visitors from England. 
Other than the person who raised the issue we've not yet had much of a 
balancing population on the other side of the argument; but not everyone 
follows changeset discussion comments or this list.  When the status of 
Western Sahara was raised with the DWG I went through a fairly long 
process which started at 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=602864#p602864 to 
ensure that everyone's views could be taken on board and to make sure 
that no-one was missed - I made sure that ever mapper in the region 
who'd recently mapped affected objects had a comment in a changeset 
discussion (and if no reply a direct message) in what appeared to be 
their usual language.  Contacting _every_ mapper who's mapped in Wales 
is unlikely to be feasible but contacting a subset of regular mappers 
(perhaps based edit count > a certain value) and based on some sort of 
"edits in Wales" criterion could be doable, but based on the Western 
Sahara survey I'd expect that it'd be a sizable amount of effort; just 
putting up a "web survey" form somewhere and hoping people come to it 
won't cut it.


If after that sort of discussion there's still opposition to "compound 
names" in Wales I'd suggest that an initial change to the wiki page 
would be the removal of the section added by "Männedorf" in 2014 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names=revision=1121276=1116200 
that introduced the idea in the first place - but we need to make sure 
that people even know about the issue first.


I'm also hoping that this discussion might kickstart OMSUK's Welsh 
language render project




Well good luck with that :) 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Lester Caine]

On 11/08/17 11:44, Chris Jones wrote:
> For OSM that would mean translating the website/interface, providing a
> localised render (like cyosm did), and improving the name:cy coverage.
> It does not mean shoving both English and Welsh version in the same name
> tag to everybody's detriment.

As always others have put it better them me :)

My own 'view' on the translation side is that one should be able to
populate a table with :cy values for everything including the interface,
but defaulting to 'name' is not the optimal, so a :en value cleanly
identified is important. The interface is essentially :en and requires
each word translated to the alternate language, so a clean set of :en
values makes that consistent world wide, while the 'name' element lacks
any identification as to the languages used :(

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Richard Fairhurst]

Brian Prangle wrote:
> You have raised a subject which needs attention but we don't
> have an active community in Wales, just individual mappers 

I don't find that a helpful distinction. Aside from a few places (London,
Birmingham, Edinburgh, the North-East Midlands), OSM in the UK doesn't have
localised "communities" in the sense of people meeting up as per German
stammtisch, and never has done. We have historically been an agglomeration
of lone rangers.

Self-evidently there's nothing wrong with that (we've built a brilliant
map), and it doesn't mean that those individual mappers haven't together
evolved precedent. On many issues, we have. I, and other local mappers,
would be a bit miffed if someone came along and said "I'm going to change
how you map Oxfordshire" and someone from a different part of Britain chimed
in with "feel free, they don't go to the pub together like we do so that's
absolutely fine".

> We need to find a solution to this problem.

It's not necessarily proven that we do. Welsh OSM users created the first
non-English language OSM map back in 2008 (Chris Jones's cyosm rendering).

In my (extensive) travels in Wales, it seems increasingly frequent that the
Welsh-language street name is either the sole name or the top name of street
signs in Welsh-speaking areas such as Aber and the Llyn, and not written at
all in predominantly English areas such as most of the South. Aber is
historically a hotbed of Welsh activism and rightly so, but showing a "Welsh
/ English" split in (say) Newport, Gwent, would seem ridiculous to locals
and visitors alike.

Because British signage and naming is erratic - we don't have a canonical,
open, officially mandated list of place and street names like some other
countries do - it's not uncommon to find a situation where one end of the
street might be signposted "Heol y Mor [linebreak] Sea Road" and the other
simply "Heol y Mor". Or where a sign might be in one language, but the road
known universally by locals in another. Applying an arbitrary rule in these
situations will not result in the map that makes most sense to most people
or that best reflects local culture.

I would rather follow a locally evolved consensus than unthinkingly apply an
international wiki-mandated hack everywhere (and let's be clear, putting two
values in one field with an arbitrary ASCII character as a separator is a
hack). Newport is no more "Newport / Casnewydd" than Dolgellau is "Dolgellau
/ Dolgelley", even though both have Welsh and English names and both are in
a country where the Welsh Language Act applies. Miguel, I'm sure you have
good intentions and it's great to see your work, but using an Overpass query
to enforce a wiki guideline then uploading it with Level0 is pretty much the
canonical opposite of how we build the map in the UK. ;)

The wiki documents but does not dictate, and it does not trump precedent.
There is a lot of inconsistent nonsense on the wiki: it's not the gospel
truth for OSM.

Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

On 10 August 2017 at 15:11, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 10/08/17 14:32, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> > Please, came to Wales and have a look of the bilingual situation within
> > your country.
> My origins are the Isle of Man and Manx is an even less used language
> than Welsh but is being added back to signs! I'm up in North Wales next
> week ... and make regular trips down the M50 and on into South Wales ...
>
>
Great, so you know...


> > You could have an idea of how it is going the language issue here
> > following the legal situation. Let's have a look of Welsh Language
> > (Wales) Measure 2011 (part 1):
> >
> > " [...] the treatment of the Welsh language no less favourably than the
> > English language;"
> >
> > I expect the same for my favourite spatial and free data base...
>
> The whole point is that political disputes arise world wise, so the
> simple rule is 'map what you see' ...


I'm agree with you. It's what I do.

Yes, fieldwork and local knowledge it is our best tool over other mapping
project.

with regards 'Queens Square' I see
> from Google that there MAY have been a bus terminus at some point in
> time, but that no longer exists? I would presume that the slip road in
> front of the town hall was the actual location, but that 'Queen's
> Square' consists off the green areas and possibly the forecourt of the
> town hall. THAT is not easy to decide by observation, but the Road tags
> do not need to be changed, just the footpaths and park area added and
> tagged ... local knowledge is required to interpret the signs ... at the
> very least the slip road needs adding on OSM.
>

I'll take more photos, will upload to Mapillary and I'll try to fix the
area.

By the way, do you know better imagery over this area? Satellite ones are
no so good.

I'm looking for more local collaborators in the time I'm visiting the
University... Let's see.

Bests

Miguel


>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

On 10 August 2017 at 13:18, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 10/08/17 11:15, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> > Hi Lester,
>
> God I hate replying to top posters :(
>

[I do not really understand]

Hello to all of you (British OSM Community?)


> > Have you read the Wiki [1]? Have you see street sing pictures [2][3]?
> That wiki page does not ACTUALLY say 'only map what is visible'
> The tag covering the sign for Queen's Square should have ...
> name=MAES Y FRENHINES QUEEN'S SQ.
>

> > I'm improving the DATA adding a neutral and appropriate "name" tag as
> > well as the "name:en" and "name:cy" tags.
> And I would tag those as
> name:cy=Maes Y Frenhines
> name:en=Queen's Square
>
>
Great! I've just see there is a need to correct this place. No Square is
placed there... I will.

Let's see Stryd Portland / Portland Street
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/16281189
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
What's wrong there? There is a name, name:en and name:cy tags in an
appropriate way. Two weeks ago it was no name:en or neutral name tags. It
is improving the DATA from my point of view.


> Other translations would probably be based off the English version as I
> don't think there are many other Welsh to xxx dictionaries? So expanding
> the 'SQ.' element is important.
>
>
No comments. I did... sure.


> The problem is that while I search for Queen's Sq Aberystwyth it is
> being found as Queens' Road
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Queen%27s%20Sq%
> 20Aberystwyth#map=18/52.41657/-4.08115
> so local knowledge is needed to explain the signage ...
>

This place is still not edited... as I said. Someone mixed with Queen's
Road... I'll check later.


>
> > I guess that the wiki says is the way to do it, right?
> The wiki does not ACTUALLY say that is right - or wrong - which is the
> problem? Should the case used on the signs be followed, should shorthand
> be expanded to make searching easier.
>

As whatever OSMapper could expect I followed the wiki...


> > Here we are to argue if it is wrong of not but from my point of view
> > it's the right approach because it is the same as in other bilingual
> > places around the World: some places in Spain, Belgium, etc.
> Since it is widely accepted that the wiki is simply guidelines then as I
> said "This is still a bit of a woolly area".


"simply guidelines"? I understood it is our reference.


> What is still accepted is
> that the key structure is English and so the default when nothing is
> defined should be 'English' so putting the english element first can be
> argued as the 'correct' approach, and I would prefer that I can find
> 'Queen's Square' easily which is more difficult when 'name' element is
> randomly ordered.


I absolutely disagree with your English-centric point of view. There is a
huge World outside with people who speaks other languages witch must be
represented as such in the diversity/real OSM spatial database.

Are you pretending to promote English name over Welsh only because you
"prefer that"?


> Added to which other countries have their own wars on
> who's language is more important. So we ended up with all the extra keys
> under 'name' http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name with the
> comment against 'name' being what I would consider a rule and the one I
> described ... except it misses the problem of case.
>
>
Please, came to Wales and have a look of the bilingual situation within
your country.

You could have an idea of how it is going the language issue here following
the legal situation. Let's have a look of Welsh Language (Wales) Measure
2011 (part 1):

" [...] the treatment of the Welsh language no less favourably than the
English language;"

I expect the same for my favourite spatial and free data base...

Regards

Miguel


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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Lester Caine]

On 10/08/17 11:15, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> Hi Lester,

God I hate replying to top posters :(

> Have you read the Wiki [1]? Have you see street sing pictures [2][3]?
That wiki page does not ACTUALLY say 'only map what is visible'
The tag covering the sign for Queen's Square should have ...
name=MAES Y FRENHINES QUEEN'S SQ.

> I'm improving the DATA adding a neutral and appropriate "name" tag as
> well as the "name:en" and "name:cy" tags.
And I would tag those as
name:cy=Maes Y Frenhines
name:en=Queen's Square

Other translations would probably be based off the English version as I
don't think there are many other Welsh to xxx dictionaries? So expanding
the 'SQ.' element is important.

The problem is that while I search for Queen's Sq Aberystwyth it is
being found as Queens' Road
http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=Queen%27s%20Sq%20Aberystwyth#map=18/52.41657/-4.08115
so local knowledge is needed to explain the signage ...

> I guess that the wiki says is the way to do it, right?
The wiki does not ACTUALLY say that is right - or wrong - which is the
problem? Should the case used on the signs be followed, should shorthand
be expanded to make searching easier.

> Here we are to argue if it is wrong of not but from my point of view
> it's the right approach because it is the same as in other bilingual
> places around the World: some places in Spain, Belgium, etc.
Since it is widely accepted that the wiki is simply guidelines then as I
said "This is still a bit of a woolly area". What is still accepted is
that the key structure is English and so the default when nothing is
defined should be 'English' so putting the english element first can be
argued as the 'correct' approach, and I would prefer that I can find
'Queen's Square' easily which is more difficult when 'name' element is
randomly ordered. Added to which other countries have their own wars on
who's language is more important. So we ended up with all the extra keys
under 'name' http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name with the
comment against 'name' being what I would consider a rule and the one I
described ... except it misses the problem of case.

< trim out of place stuff and sig should never be quoted! >

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Hi Lester,

Have you read the Wiki [1]? Have you see street sing pictures [2][3]?

I'm improving the DATA adding a neutral and appropriate "name" tag as well
as the "name:en" and "name:cy" tags.

I guess that the wiki says is the way to do it, right?

Here we are to argue if it is wrong of not but from my point of view it's
the right approach because it is the same as in other bilingual places
around the World: some places in Spain, Belgium, etc.

Cheers

Miguel

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
[2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/BVAjyV5Yt6hediIk7Lqv4w
[3] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA

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Doctor en Geography / @msevilla00

On 10 August 2017 at 08:40, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 09/08/17 23:40, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> > So I would like to translate here why I'm using a neutral approach for
> > the bilingual tagging in Wales: mainly because I'm following the wiki.
>
> This is still a bit of a woolly area, but name= should only contain the
> information that is actually DISPLAYED locally. So if the street sign
> has only welsh or only english that is what appears in 'name'. This may
> also result in different tags on the same object where signage has
> different spellings or ordering, but someone looking for 'Fford-y-Mor
> Terrace Road' will have a good chance of seeing that on a sign. If the
> signs only have 'Fford-y-Mor' then one knows not to look for 'Terrace
> Road' ... In countries where different alphabets are used reading the
> signs can be challenging ;)
>
> This is then supported by name:en and name:cy along with additional
> name:* translations where people feel the need to generate them.
> Rendering a 'translated' map is then a matter of selecting the available
> name elements in the right order with 'name' being the final fallback,
> but 'Terrace Road' may be preferable for some translations even when the
> displayed name is only 'Fford-y-Mor' ... It depends just what the DATA
> is actually being used for?
>
> Making the DATA easy to use is the key element here not any particular
> rendering approach, but this has been messed up somewhat with there not
> being a consistent way to handle the evolution of the data. Many parts
> of Wales have been 'improving' the prominence of Welsh so what was only
> displayed in English now has the official Welsh signage as well. Using
> 'old_name' may be a way to record some of the changes, but we do need a
> much better defined way of handling the large amount of historic name
> changes that are currently 'lost' in the change logs! OHM needs to be
> feed automatically with data that the general consensus deems not
> appropriate to retain in OSM and the evolution of things like names are
> simply part of that.
>
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> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Lester Caine]

On 09/08/17 23:40, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
> So I would like to translate here why I'm using a neutral approach for
> the bilingual tagging in Wales: mainly because I'm following the wiki.

This is still a bit of a woolly area, but name= should only contain the
information that is actually DISPLAYED locally. So if the street sign
has only welsh or only english that is what appears in 'name'. This may
also result in different tags on the same object where signage has
different spellings or ordering, but someone looking for 'Fford-y-Mor
Terrace Road' will have a good chance of seeing that on a sign. If the
signs only have 'Fford-y-Mor' then one knows not to look for 'Terrace
Road' ... In countries where different alphabets are used reading the
signs can be challenging ;)

This is then supported by name:en and name:cy along with additional
name:* translations where people feel the need to generate them.
Rendering a 'translated' map is then a matter of selecting the available
name elements in the right order with 'name' being the final fallback,
but 'Terrace Road' may be preferable for some translations even when the
displayed name is only 'Fford-y-Mor' ... It depends just what the DATA
is actually being used for?

Making the DATA easy to use is the key element here not any particular
rendering approach, but this has been messed up somewhat with there not
being a consistent way to handle the evolution of the data. Many parts
of Wales have been 'improving' the prominence of Welsh so what was only
displayed in English now has the official Welsh signage as well. Using
'old_name' may be a way to record some of the changes, but we do need a
much better defined way of handling the large amount of historic name
changes that are currently 'lost' in the change logs! OHM needs to be
feed automatically with data that the general consensus deems not
appropriate to retain in OSM and the evolution of things like names are
simply part of that.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Sorry, the link to the changeset is incomplete in my last email, here is
the correct one:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50943658
Cheers
M

--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor en Geografía

On 9 August 2017 at 23:40, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
wrote:

> Hello again,
>
> I started to edit around and within Aberystwyth, Wales. Yesterday I did an
> edition to fix the bilingual labelling of some streets as I explained
> before in this thread but other user (Mike Baggaley) is asking to me to
> remove and change a neutral approach for labelling the streets [1].
>
> I understood that this list is the proper place to discuss and to start a
> consensus in the way to edit within the UK.
>
> So I would like to translate here why I'm using a neutral approach for the
> bilingual tagging in Wales: mainly because I'm following the wiki.
>
> I'll invite Mike Baggaley or whoever thinks I'm doing an inappropriate
> editions to consider joint this thread here and argue about.
>
> Just in case, next, I copy and paste my reply to Mike Baggaley in the
> changeset discussion where I explained mi position:
>
> "I disagree with you [to not use "Welsh name / English name" for "name"
> tag].
>
> If you please read the wiki you will read how to tag in multilingual
> situations.
>
> First, "name" tag could be use as you can see in street sings [1]. You can
> check on Mapillary how are labelled [2][3]
>
> Second, "Welsh name / English name" label for "name" tag is recommended
> for a neutral or bilingual version in Wales [4].
>
> Moreover, from the legal point of view, in Wales, in general, and in
> Ceredigion Council, in particular, Welsh is as important as English [5].
> Even Ordnance Survey has labelled some streets of Aberystwyth in both
> languages in their maps! [6]
>
> In conclusion, it is not necessary to change my editions because are
> appropriates."
>
> Bests
>
> Miguel
>
> [0] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
> [2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/BVAjyV5Yt6hediIk7Lqv4w
> [3] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
> [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales "In the
> name field, a neutral or a bilingual version can be entered."
> [5] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/mwa/2011/1/contents
> [6] http://map.ceredigion.gov.uk/connect/?mapcfg=COMMUNITY_AND_LIVING
>
>
> --
> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
> Doctor en Geografía
>
> On 27 July 2017 at 14:48, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> As far as I understand the wiki, my experience in Spanish bilingual
>> situations and the common sense (as you can see in street signals) I'm
>> going to change name=* to a neutral way as far as I could because is non
>> sense to have only English name in name=* tag (and adding name:en=* if do
>> not exist).
>>
>> I see (may be SK53 add them) there are name:cy tag in many streets [1] so
>> is as easy to edit name=* adding the Welsh name before as you can see in
>> the streets, add name:en=* if necessary.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Miguel
>>
>> [1] e.g. way of the photo http://imgur.com/VkxGasm -->
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/152547339
>>
>> --
>> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
>> Doctor en Geografía
>>
>> On 27 July 2017 at 14:29, SK53  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Miguel,
>>>
>>> I tend to agree with you. However, we have never had a consensus on
>>> which approach to use. Perhaps because we have few mappers in Wales and
>>> even fewer who are Welsh speakers by preference. Certainly using an English
>>> road name in Welsh-speaking areas of Wales is likely to put off Welsh
>>> speakers from contributing, so I tend to regard using both names as a
>>> quasi-political compromise. It's not easy to parse but will be intelligible
>>> to all, and does not require the elaborate explanation about name:en and
>>> name:cy.
>>>
>>> So be prepared for people querying this approach.
>>>
>>> From a perspective of entering the data it is important to add name:en
>>> and name:cy.
>>>
>>> Ironically I have been using Aber to test a mapnik overlay of Welsh
>>> names, so more data would be very useful.
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>> On 27 July 2017 at 14:15, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hello Phil,

 Thanks for your reply, great to know someone is editing or/checking
 editions around.

 Respect the issue about the street names if you follow wiki indications
 for multilingual names [1] you could read for Welsh that "It is better to
 use *name:en* for English names and *name:cy* for the Welsh name. In
 the *name* field, a neutral or a bilingual version can be entered."
 [2]. So it's time to proceed in the correct mode.

 You can see an example of street sing here: http://imgur.com/VkxGasm

 I guess we should follow the neutral bilingual approach for that rather
 than to use only Welsh (which in top) or English name.

 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Hello again,

I started to edit around and within Aberystwyth, Wales. Yesterday I did an
edition to fix the bilingual labelling of some streets as I explained
before in this thread but other user (Mike Baggaley) is asking to me to
remove and change a neutral approach for labelling the streets [1].

I understood that this list is the proper place to discuss and to start a
consensus in the way to edit within the UK.

So I would like to translate here why I'm using a neutral approach for the
bilingual tagging in Wales: mainly because I'm following the wiki.

I'll invite Mike Baggaley or whoever thinks I'm doing an inappropriate
editions to consider joint this thread here and argue about.

Just in case, next, I copy and paste my reply to Mike Baggaley in the
changeset discussion where I explained mi position:

"I disagree with you [to not use "Welsh name / English name" for "name"
tag].

If you please read the wiki you will read how to tag in multilingual
situations.

First, "name" tag could be use as you can see in street sings [1]. You can
check on Mapillary how are labelled [2][3]

Second, "Welsh name / English name" label for "name" tag is recommended for
a neutral or bilingual version in Wales [4].

Moreover, from the legal point of view, in Wales, in general, and in
Ceredigion Council, in particular, Welsh is as important as English [5].
Even Ordnance Survey has labelled some streets of Aberystwyth in both
languages in their maps! [6]

In conclusion, it is not necessary to change my editions because are
appropriates."

Bests

Miguel

[0] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
[2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/BVAjyV5Yt6hediIk7Lqv4w
[3] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales "In the
name field, a neutral or a bilingual version can be entered."
[5] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/mwa/2011/1/contents
[6] http://map.ceredigion.gov.uk/connect/?mapcfg=COMMUNITY_AND_LIVING


--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor en Geografía

On 27 July 2017 at 14:48, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> As far as I understand the wiki, my experience in Spanish bilingual
> situations and the common sense (as you can see in street signals) I'm
> going to change name=* to a neutral way as far as I could because is non
> sense to have only English name in name=* tag (and adding name:en=* if do
> not exist).
>
> I see (may be SK53 add them) there are name:cy tag in many streets [1] so
> is as easy to edit name=* adding the Welsh name before as you can see in
> the streets, add name:en=* if necessary.
>
> Cheers
>
> Miguel
>
> [1] e.g. way of the photo http://imgur.com/VkxGasm -->
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/152547339
>
> --
> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
> Doctor en Geografía
>
> On 27 July 2017 at 14:29, SK53  wrote:
>
>> Hi Miguel,
>>
>> I tend to agree with you. However, we have never had a consensus on which
>> approach to use. Perhaps because we have few mappers in Wales and even
>> fewer who are Welsh speakers by preference. Certainly using an English road
>> name in Welsh-speaking areas of Wales is likely to put off Welsh speakers
>> from contributing, so I tend to regard using both names as a
>> quasi-political compromise. It's not easy to parse but will be intelligible
>> to all, and does not require the elaborate explanation about name:en and
>> name:cy.
>>
>> So be prepared for people querying this approach.
>>
>> From a perspective of entering the data it is important to add name:en
>> and name:cy.
>>
>> Ironically I have been using Aber to test a mapnik overlay of Welsh
>> names, so more data would be very useful.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>> On 27 July 2017 at 14:15, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Phil,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply, great to know someone is editing or/checking
>>> editions around.
>>>
>>> Respect the issue about the street names if you follow wiki indications
>>> for multilingual names [1] you could read for Welsh that "It is better to
>>> use *name:en* for English names and *name:cy* for the Welsh name. In
>>> the *name* field, a neutral or a bilingual version can be entered."
>>> [2]. So it's time to proceed in the correct mode.
>>>
>>> You can see an example of street sing here: http://imgur.com/VkxGasm
>>>
>>> I guess we should follow the neutral bilingual approach for that rather
>>> than to use only Welsh (which in top) or English name.
>>>
>>> In Spain we have same regions with this issue and we are use to manage.
>>>
>>> Telegram is like WhatsApp, a Instant Messenger platform, initially focus
>>> in mobile [3] and we use in Spain to re-emplace IRC [4] despite we
>>> connected both services through Riot.im [4]
>>>
>>> By the way, I'm one of the administrator of the Non-official,
>>> unauthorized OpenStreetMap supergroup on Telegram: @openstreetmaporg [5]
>>>
>>> We keep in contact

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Hi again,

As far as I understand the wiki, my experience in Spanish bilingual
situations and the common sense (as you can see in street signals) I'm
going to change name=* to a neutral way as far as I could because is non
sense to have only English name in name=* tag (and adding name:en=* if do
not exist).

I see (may be SK53 add them) there are name:cy tag in many streets [1] so
is as easy to edit name=* adding the Welsh name before as you can see in
the streets, add name:en=* if necessary.

Cheers

Miguel

[1] e.g. way of the photo http://imgur.com/VkxGasm -->
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/152547339

--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor en Geografía

On 27 July 2017 at 14:29, SK53  wrote:

> Hi Miguel,
>
> I tend to agree with you. However, we have never had a consensus on which
> approach to use. Perhaps because we have few mappers in Wales and even
> fewer who are Welsh speakers by preference. Certainly using an English road
> name in Welsh-speaking areas of Wales is likely to put off Welsh speakers
> from contributing, so I tend to regard using both names as a
> quasi-political compromise. It's not easy to parse but will be intelligible
> to all, and does not require the elaborate explanation about name:en and
> name:cy.
>
> So be prepared for people querying this approach.
>
> From a perspective of entering the data it is important to add name:en and
> name:cy.
>
> Ironically I have been using Aber to test a mapnik overlay of Welsh names,
> so more data would be very useful.
>
> Jerry
>
> On 27 July 2017 at 14:15, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Phil,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply, great to know someone is editing or/checking
>> editions around.
>>
>> Respect the issue about the street names if you follow wiki indications
>> for multilingual names [1] you could read for Welsh that "It is better to
>> use *name:en* for English names and *name:cy* for the Welsh name. In the
>> *name* field, a neutral or a bilingual version can be entered." [2]. So
>> it's time to proceed in the correct mode.
>>
>> You can see an example of street sing here: http://imgur.com/VkxGasm
>>
>> I guess we should follow the neutral bilingual approach for that rather
>> than to use only Welsh (which in top) or English name.
>>
>> In Spain we have same regions with this issue and we are use to manage.
>>
>> Telegram is like WhatsApp, a Instant Messenger platform, initially focus
>> in mobile [3] and we use in Spain to re-emplace IRC [4] despite we
>> connected both services through Riot.im [4]
>>
>> By the way, I'm one of the administrator of the Non-official,
>> unauthorized OpenStreetMap supergroup on Telegram: @openstreetmaporg [5]
>>
>> We keep in contact
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Miguel
>>
>> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names
>> [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>> [3] https://telegram.org/
>> [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_centric_Teleg
>> ram_accounts
>> [5] https://telegram.me/OpenStreetMapOrg
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
>> Doctor en Geografía
>>
>> On 27 July 2017 at 13:25, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Miguel,  welcome to Wales or should I say Croisi y Cymru.
>>>
>>> I am based in the Marches on the border so my mapping is regularly both
>>> sides of the border. I do keep an eye on mid Wales through whodidit as we
>>> are very sparse on mappers in that area.
>>>
>>> >
>>> >I'm looking for other contributors in Wales, Ceredigion or even within
>>> >Aberystwyth to coordinate with them to star editions here.
>>> >
>>> >For instance, I found that all street names should be tagged in Welsh
>>> >and
>>> >English in the name=* as you can see in the street signals or as I
>>> >found it
>>> >must be in the OSM wiki [3]
>>>
>>> I would disagree with that, I prefer to map the top name in name and
>>> then use name:cy and name:en tags. In my experience that is the norm.
>>> Experience tells me that is far easier if the name contains a single
>>> language. In Ceredigion I would expect that to be usually Cymraig.
>>> >
>>> >Moreover, I'm taking some street level photos to upload to Mapillary
>>> >[3]
>>> >and adding some notes [4] for future contributions.
>>> >
>>> >All feedback is welcome, I'm on Telegram too (same user as OSM) so you
>>> >can
>>> >contact to me there too.
>>>
>>> I am not sure what telegram is, the UK community hang out on IRC in
>>> #talk-gb, you are welcome to join us.
>>> >
>>> >Cheers & happy mapping
>>>
>>> Have fun,  and certainly visit New Quay (Under Milk Wood), while you are
>>> in Ceredigion.
>>>
>>> Phil. (trigpoint)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-GB mailing list
>>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[SK53]

Hi Miguel,

I tend to agree with you. However, we have never had a consensus on which
approach to use. Perhaps because we have few mappers in Wales and even
fewer who are Welsh speakers by preference. Certainly using an English road
name in Welsh-speaking areas of Wales is likely to put off Welsh speakers
from contributing, so I tend to regard using both names as a
quasi-political compromise. It's not easy to parse but will be intelligible
to all, and does not require the elaborate explanation about name:en and
name:cy.

So be prepared for people querying this approach.

>From a perspective of entering the data it is important to add name:en and
name:cy.

Ironically I have been using Aber to test a mapnik overlay of Welsh names,
so more data would be very useful.

Jerry

On 27 July 2017 at 14:15, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo 
wrote:

> Hello Phil,
>
> Thanks for your reply, great to know someone is editing or/checking
> editions around.
>
> Respect the issue about the street names if you follow wiki indications
> for multilingual names [1] you could read for Welsh that "It is better to
> use *name:en* for English names and *name:cy* for the Welsh name. In the
> *name* field, a neutral or a bilingual version can be entered." [2]. So
> it's time to proceed in the correct mode.
>
> You can see an example of street sing here: http://imgur.com/VkxGasm
>
> I guess we should follow the neutral bilingual approach for that rather
> than to use only Welsh (which in top) or English name.
>
> In Spain we have same regions with this issue and we are use to manage.
>
> Telegram is like WhatsApp, a Instant Messenger platform, initially focus
> in mobile [3] and we use in Spain to re-emplace IRC [4] despite we
> connected both services through Riot.im [4]
>
> By the way, I'm one of the administrator of the Non-official, unauthorized
> OpenStreetMap supergroup on Telegram: @openstreetmaporg [5]
>
> We keep in contact
>
> Cheers
>
> Miguel
>
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names
> [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
> [3] https://telegram.org/
> [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_centric_
> Telegram_accounts
> [5] https://telegram.me/OpenStreetMapOrg
>
>
>
> --
> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
> Doctor en Geografía
>
> On 27 July 2017 at 13:25, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Miguel,  welcome to Wales or should I say Croisi y Cymru.
>>
>> I am based in the Marches on the border so my mapping is regularly both
>> sides of the border. I do keep an eye on mid Wales through whodidit as we
>> are very sparse on mappers in that area.
>>
>> >
>> >I'm looking for other contributors in Wales, Ceredigion or even within
>> >Aberystwyth to coordinate with them to star editions here.
>> >
>> >For instance, I found that all street names should be tagged in Welsh
>> >and
>> >English in the name=* as you can see in the street signals or as I
>> >found it
>> >must be in the OSM wiki [3]
>>
>> I would disagree with that, I prefer to map the top name in name and then
>> use name:cy and name:en tags. In my experience that is the norm. Experience
>> tells me that is far easier if the name contains a single language. In
>> Ceredigion I would expect that to be usually Cymraig.
>> >
>> >Moreover, I'm taking some street level photos to upload to Mapillary
>> >[3]
>> >and adding some notes [4] for future contributions.
>> >
>> >All feedback is welcome, I'm on Telegram too (same user as OSM) so you
>> >can
>> >contact to me there too.
>>
>> I am not sure what telegram is, the UK community hang out on IRC in
>> #talk-gb, you are welcome to join us.
>> >
>> >Cheers & happy mapping
>>
>> Have fun,  and certainly visit New Quay (Under Milk Wood), while you are
>> in Ceredigion.
>>
>> Phil. (trigpoint)
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Hello Phil,

Thanks for your reply, great to know someone is editing or/checking
editions around.

Respect the issue about the street names if you follow wiki indications for
multilingual names [1] you could read for Welsh that "It is better to use
*name:en* for English names and *name:cy* for the Welsh name. In the *name*
field, a neutral or a bilingual version can be entered." [2]. So it's time
to proceed in the correct mode.

You can see an example of street sing here: http://imgur.com/VkxGasm

I guess we should follow the neutral bilingual approach for that rather
than to use only Welsh (which in top) or English name.

In Spain we have same regions with this issue and we are use to manage.

Telegram is like WhatsApp, a Instant Messenger platform, initially focus in
mobile [3] and we use in Spain to re-emplace IRC [4] despite we connected
both services through Riot.im [4]

By the way, I'm one of the administrator of the Non-official, unauthorized
OpenStreetMap supergroup on Telegram: @openstreetmaporg [5]

We keep in contact

Cheers

Miguel

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
[3] https://telegram.org/
[4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_centric_Telegram_accounts
[5] https://telegram.me/OpenStreetMapOrg



--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor en Geografía

On 27 July 2017 at 13:25, Philip Barnes  wrote:

>
>
> Hi Miguel,  welcome to Wales or should I say Croisi y Cymru.
>
> I am based in the Marches on the border so my mapping is regularly both
> sides of the border. I do keep an eye on mid Wales through whodidit as we
> are very sparse on mappers in that area.
>
> >
> >I'm looking for other contributors in Wales, Ceredigion or even within
> >Aberystwyth to coordinate with them to star editions here.
> >
> >For instance, I found that all street names should be tagged in Welsh
> >and
> >English in the name=* as you can see in the street signals or as I
> >found it
> >must be in the OSM wiki [3]
>
> I would disagree with that, I prefer to map the top name in name and then
> use name:cy and name:en tags. In my experience that is the norm. Experience
> tells me that is far easier if the name contains a single language. In
> Ceredigion I would expect that to be usually Cymraig.
> >
> >Moreover, I'm taking some street level photos to upload to Mapillary
> >[3]
> >and adding some notes [4] for future contributions.
> >
> >All feedback is welcome, I'm on Telegram too (same user as OSM) so you
> >can
> >contact to me there too.
>
> I am not sure what telegram is, the UK community hang out on IRC in
> #talk-gb, you are welcome to join us.
> >
> >Cheers & happy mapping
>
> Have fun,  and certainly visit New Quay (Under Milk Wood), while you are
> in Ceredigion.
>
> Phil. (trigpoint)
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Philip Barnes]

Hi Miguel,  welcome to Wales or should I say Croisi y Cymru. 

I am based in the Marches on the border so my mapping is regularly both sides 
of the border. I do keep an eye on mid Wales through whodidit as we are very 
sparse on mappers in that area. 

>
>I'm looking for other contributors in Wales, Ceredigion or even within
>Aberystwyth to coordinate with them to star editions here.
>
>For instance, I found that all street names should be tagged in Welsh
>and
>English in the name=* as you can see in the street signals or as I
>found it
>must be in the OSM wiki [3]

I would disagree with that, I prefer to map the top name in name and then use 
name:cy and name:en tags. In my experience that is the norm. Experience tells 
me that is far easier if the name contains a single language. In Ceredigion I 
would expect that to be usually Cymraig. 
>
>Moreover, I'm taking some street level photos to upload to Mapillary
>[3]
>and adding some notes [4] for future contributions.
>
>All feedback is welcome, I'm on Telegram too (same user as OSM) so you
>can
>contact to me there too.

I am not sure what telegram is, the UK community hang out on IRC in #talk-gb, 
you are welcome to join us. 
>
>Cheers & happy mapping

Have fun,  and certainly visit New Quay (Under Milk Wood), while you are in 
Ceredigion. 

Phil. (trigpoint) 

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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[Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Miguel Sevilla-Callejo]

Hello,

I'm Miguel Sevilla-Callejo, msevilla00 OSM user [1], an active user withing
the Spanish OSM Community despite I do not have to many editions and I'm
spending some weeks in the UK. I'm based on Aberystwyth, Wales and, as you
can imagine I checked how our favourite spatial data base is going around...

I'm looking for other contributors in Wales, Ceredigion or even within
Aberystwyth to coordinate with them to star editions here.

For instance, I found that all street names should be tagged in Welsh and
English in the name=* as you can see in the street signals or as I found it
must be in the OSM wiki [3]

Moreover, I'm taking some street level photos to upload to Mapillary [3]
and adding some notes [4] for future contributions.

All feedback is welcome, I'm on Telegram too (same user as OSM) so you can
contact to me there too.

Cheers & happy mapping

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/msevilla00
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
[3] https://www.mapillary.com/app/user/msevilla00
[4] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/msevilla00/notes

--
*Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
Doctor in Geography

a. Research Assistance at the Pyrenean Institute of Ecology - Spanish
National Research Council
b. Associate Lecturer at Dpto. of Geography & Territorial Planning at
University of Zaragoza
c. Freelance consultant & researcher - Member #698, Spanish Professional
Association of Geographers
d. Visitor Scholar in Dept. Geography and Earth Sciences at Aberystwyth
University
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