Re: [talk-latam] cómo establecer un contact —estable— con YMUP?

[Mario Frasca]

Dear Rory, you wrote on HOT task 9844:

From my understanding they made efforts to engage you and ask for your 
help. Further, I believe the YouthMappers chapter in Panama responded 
to you and shared with you the OSM Wiki pages (per the OEG guidelines) 
they had created for these tasks on another OSM channel
While we don't provide links, we're leaving space for misunderstanding, 
so instead of misunderstanding you, let me tell you I simply do not 
understand what you're talking about, would you mind providing some 
detail?  I'm not aware of (recent) efforts to get in contact and 
definitely of any effort at all for staying in contact.  I do not even 
know who's the new president of the chapter, let alone the members, or 
their plans.


the DWG blocked some of their accounts, and in the text of the message 
they received there was this part:


The most important bit here is that every single member of your team 
is recognizable as being in our team (e.g. by writing something on the 
user profile page) and that the team leadership is reachable for us.
The page they created does not contain a list of their members, and none 
of the persons who's read the message has complied with this request.


as said, we don't know who's at the leadership.

so, no, I don't believe the YouthMappers chapter in Panama responded to 
either me nor the DWG.


best regards,

Mario Frasca

the complete text of the lock message follows (containing still open 
questions):



Dear Youth Mappers at Panama University,

recently, a number of complaints have been raised against your work in 
OpenStreetMap. Here are some of them:


https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=12196736 
<https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=12196736>
https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4366434 
<https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4366434>
https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4366436 
<https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4366436>
https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4928257 
<https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4928257>


We’re always happy if new poeple join OSM, but if you train students 
to contribute to OSM, you have a responsibility to monitor the quality 
and ensure that if other mappers raise complaints, these complaints 
are heard and acted upon.


In your future work in OSM, please observe the organised editing 
guidelines outlined here:


https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Organised_Editing_Guidelines 
<https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Organised_Editing_Guidelines>


The most important bit here is that every single member of your team 
is recognizable as being in our team (e.g. by writing something on the 
user profile page) and that the team leadership is reachable for us.


The guidelines also require that you document your mapping efforts. 
One user has done this for you in his diary entry:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mariotomo/diary/395025 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mariotomo/diary/395025>


But this is not a job that the community should be doing for you - it 
is you whou should be providing this documentation.


Please, in your future OSM projects, ensure that students receive 
proper training and follow the organised editing guidelines.


It is not a big deal if someone makes a mistake - we all make 
mistakes. But, since you are introducing new people to OSM every year, 
you really need to make it a part of that introduction to explain to 
students that they need to work together with the existing OSM 
community, and that they don’t exist in an empty space.


I am writing this as a block message to all accounts that are 
currently involved hoping that it finally reaches someone who is 
responsible, as the individual accounts do not list a contact address, 
have not reacted to changeset comments, and emails from OSM mappers to 
i...@youthmappers.org <mailto:i...@youthmappers.org> have been without 
response.


Please ignore this message and accept my apologies if you are not 
involved with the group.


Thank you for your understanding Frederik Ramm OSMF Data Workin Group 
Ticket#2020120710000024



On 14/12/2020 08:48, Mario Frasca wrote:

queridos jóvenes mapeadores de la universidad de Panamá,

estoy comentando unas ediciones que están entrando en vuestras áreas 
de interés, ejecutadas en forma de revisión de los datos brutos, sea 
insertados durante vuestros "mapathon", sea llegando gracias a los 
proyectos que siguen abiertos y siguen atrayendo principiantes.


en particular Marianne_pty me responde 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/95350683), y me pide que no 
le dé comentarios generales.


pero, cuál canal tenemos abierto, para los comentarios generales?

intento vuestro correo e involucro la lista regional.

en el caso de Colón, los YMUP han escojido un lugar en que se est

[talk-latam] cómo establecer un contact —estable— con YMUP?

[Mario Frasca]

queridos jóvenes mapeadores de la universidad de Panamá,

estoy comentando unas ediciones que están entrando en vuestras áreas de 
interés, ejecutadas en forma de revisión de los datos brutos, sea 
insertados durante vuestros "mapathon", sea llegando gracias a los 
proyectos que siguen abiertos y siguen atrayendo principiantes.


en particular Marianne_pty me responde 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/95350683), y me pide que no le 
dé comentarios generales.


pero, cuál canal tenemos abierto, para los comentarios generales?

intento vuestro correo e involucro la lista regional.

en el caso de Colón, los YMUP han escojido un lugar en que se está 
tumbando y reconstruyendo. las fotos están —todas — desactualizadas, 
Bing muestra una realidad que ya no existe, mientras Maxar muestra 
muchos edificios destechados, o sea ya no son `building` sino 
`disused:`, `abandoned:` o quizás serían `landuse=greenfield`, tal vez 
ya `landuse=construction` o podrían ser nuevos edificios ya entregados.


o sea: al momento mapear Colón es difícil, y les cuento que no entiendo 
vuestra decisión de empujar maperos principiantes en un lugar tan 
complicado y dinámico.  igualmente difícil (aunque menos dinámico) es 
vuestro mapeo de San Miguelito, donde tuvieron que llamar expertos 
extranjeros, creo que de HOT, para revisar las ediciones, que lo están 
haciendo sin consultarse con los maperos activos en el país.


Marianne_pty escribe que vuestro grupo también se siente comprometido 
con "la zona de Chiriquí afectada por el Huracán". pero no entiendo, ya 
tienen sin completar la actividad HOT 4917, el área de Guna Nega, las 
comunidades amenazadas por los ríos en en sur del distrito de Mariato, 
porqué no concentrarse en una cosa, sencilla o por lo menos a su 
alcance, y completarla aprendiendo de ella?


además: cuál zona? 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:YMUP-2020-11-organized-editing-Chiriqu%C3%AD.jpg


cordialmente,

Mario Frasca


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Re: [talk-latam] Respuesta a [Ticket#2020120710000024]

[Mario Frasca]

Hola Maritza y YMUP,

no sé porqué es necesario que sea yo a escribir en los intereses de la 
comunidad OSM de Panamá, quizás que estoy interpretando mal lo que 
quiere la comunidad, y que al fin y al cabo lo que hace el YMUP está muy 
bien en esta comunidad.  entonces sabes qué?  en lugar de "contestarte" 
sólo te mejoro y completo un par de puntos, en que creo que estás 
alterando y omitiendo detalles relevantes.


porque digo que el capítulo no ha sido responsivo?  porque después de la 
reunidón del 17 de septiembre nunca nadie ha escuchado nada de algún 
miembro del capítulo.  yo les he escrito en Whatsapp, en Telegram, por 
correo, aúnque sólo en los conjuntos de cambios cada quien puede 
comprobar que no he tenido respuestas.  Tuvo que intervenir Mateusz 
Koniecny, el día 16 de noviembre.


les acuerdo que para la reunión del 17 de septiembre utilizamos la 
plataforma IRC oficial de OSM.


reconocieron deberes y entendieron necesidades, reafirmaron deseos, se 
propusieron de estar al día, y luego qué?  en práctica, mencioname, por 
favor, algo que hicieron después de la fecha del 17 de septiembre y 
antes de la fecha del 16 de noviembre en que recibieron una queja de 
parte de Mateusz Koniecny por falta de cumplimiento de las líneas guía 
para las ediciones organizadas.


cuando dices »Un ejemplo de esto es cuando nuestros estudiantes pidieron 
su ayuda y apoyo durante la reunión del 17 de septiembre. En lugar de 
ayudar a proporcionar recursos, simplemente nos escribió que los 
buscáramos los recursos en el Internet«, revisa por favor el log de la 
reunión: olvidas que no había estudiantes en la reunión del 17 de 
septiembre y que la pregunta fue de parte de Marcela Zeballos.


no les dije de buscar en "Internet" sino es que me surprendió tanto que 
desconocieran la presencia de material de referencia en nuestro Wiki, y 
justamente por parte de Marcela Zeballos, que no le supe contestar sino 
"el wiki está repleno".  pero estaba al punto de decirle "como puedes 
tener tu puesto sin conocer el material de referencia disponible en el 
wiki OSM?"


he visto, por supuesto he notado muy bien que vuestros editores por lo 
general desaparecen practicamente todos después haber participado a una 
actividad de mapeo que ustedes organizan "entre amigos", y de que hablan 
en el blog de YouthMappers.  opinas que desaparezcan por miedo a Mario 
Frasca?  que pena.  no quisiera sugerir que quizás no se sintieron entre 
amigos, sería ofensivo, pero no será que no los supieron motivar, 
despertar su interés?  no sé, pero que se asusten así tan fácil, me 
parece raro, un comentario y ya.


Mateusz acaba de publicar las respuestas recibidas por los organizadores 
de YouthMappers.  si te han dicho de haberle contestado el día mismo, 
sepas que te están informando mal, pues la primera respuesta fue poco 
más que una respuesta automática.  el contenido del correo siguiente, 
habrá que ver qué dice OSM, pues hasta el momento las reacciones han 
sido del estilo "that's not how that works (petchge en el IRC)", y otra 
respuesta puedes leerla en 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activities/YouthMappers_violate_Organised_Editing_guidelines_(2020_complaint_by_Mateusz_Konieczny)


me alegro que hayan creado una página para vuestro grupo.  para que los 
demás nos enteremos, podrían socializarlo en el foro, en el grupo, 
podrían enlazarlo desde la página wiki/Panamá.


una sugerencia: en esta página falta que mencionen las actividades que 
han organizado en los GisDay 2018, 2019, y los mapeos de emergencia en 
Chiriquí y el distrito de Mariato.  y podrían poner algún mapa, para que 
entendamos dónde han trabajado?  puedes aprovechar de las que he 
preparado en la página de diario: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mariotomo/diary/395025


el la página del Panamá OpenStreetMap Festival 2020 (que abrieron 
durante el festival, después de haber recibido la queja de Mateusz), 
dicen: »Para desarrollar este proceso de validación hemos establecido 
fechas de trabajo de las siguientes proyectos: San Miguelito, Santiago y 
Veraguas«.  estarás de acuerdo, espero, que faltan un poco de detalles 
sobre los proyectos, por lo menos en forma de enlaces a los proyectos 
HOT, y se han olvidado mencionar Colón-9851.  si han establecido fechas, 
falta mencionarlas.  si tienen un proyecto "Veraguas", podría ser útil 
explicar en qué consiste, pues "Veraguas" es, como decirlo, poco 
informativo.  el proyecto 9844 de San Miguelito describe el área de 
vuestra intención, sin embargo están mapeando fuera de él, algo que no 
les permitirá reservar tareas o hacer una revisión sistemática.


a propósido de las tareas que les iba a crear en el administrador de 
tareas colombiano, por supuesto que no las ven.  les había propuesto su 
utilización (https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/93802845), y no me han 
contestado.  sin saber qué intención tienen, có

Re: [talk-latam] Fwd: Respuesta a [Ticket#2020120710000024]

[Mario Frasca]

There is one point which I do need to clarify, because this is a 
misrepresentation of the facts and it offends me.


Maritza20r writes:



  Un ejemplo de esto es cuando nuestros estudiantes pidieron su ayuda
  y apoyo durante la reunión del 17 de septiembre. En lugar de ayudar
  a proporcionar recursos, simplemente nos escribió que los buscáramos
  los recursos en el Internet

there were no students in the meeting 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mariotomo/diary/394356), the 
question was posed by Marcela Zeballos (YouthMappers International. I 
don't know her precise role, she didn't introduce herself), and I was so 
surprised to hear such a lack of familiarity with our resources on the 
wiki that I did cut it short, saying "el wiki está repleno".  mind you: 
not "the internet", but our Wiki.


I've tried to be as helpful as I can when suggesting how to correct 
mistakes, but I guess that after comment after comment without feedback 
I might have forgotten the usual local customs of avoiding correcting 
people you don't know personally.  anyhow:




  sin embargo, sus acciones han provocado que los estudiantes
  universitarios panameños se sientan desanimados e intimidados de
  participar en su propia comunidad local de OSM y desarrollar sus
  habilidades

that this chapter dares blame me for not being able to keep editors 
within OSM, that's preposterous.


mis dos comentarios a la profesora:

https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4366436

de la lista selecciono unos comentarios, todos sin respuesta, que 
evidentemente asustaron a los estudiantes 
(https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=248722):


Hola Karen, mapeaste unos edificios de la escuela como escuelas, no 
como edificios. te los mejoro yo? o quieres revisarlo después de haber 
leído el wiki?
hola Marianne. perdona, pero no creo que estés mejorando mucho la 
situación. los tres edificios 391365287, 391365288, 391365286 los has 
puesto en la posición de sus techos; el edificio 416514095 lo has 
identificado con un agua de su techo; el nuevo edificio 881437025 lo 
has ex...
hola Karen. perdona, pero no creo que estés mejorando mucho la 
situación. me parece que estés mapeando manchas en los techos, 
seguramente querrás revisar lo que acabas de poner, quizás te ayuden 
las fotos de Bing.
hola Emilce. seguramente te habrán comentado tus asesores y 
compañeras: en iD existe la manera muy sencilla para que los edificios 
resulten rectangulares. en la realidad, casi todos los ángulos de las 
casas son rectos.
hola Andrés. si mapeas por interés personal, y quieres mejorar, pues 
estás haciendo errores bien raros … tenemos un grupo:

https://t.me/Comunidad_OSM_Panama
serás bienvenido, y ojalá sigas mapeando y mejorando.
estás en un proceso de aprendizaje, cierto? si quieres ayuda, estamos 
a toda disposición. me confirmas tu interés por seguir mapeando?
hola, gracias por contribuir al mapa de OSM. si necesitas ayuda, por 
favor ponte en contacto con la comunidad, hay varias maneras de 
hacerlo. por ejemplo los grupos OSM en Telegram. en esta contribución 
sólo te faltó etiquetar correctamente el camino.
hola, gracias por intentar mejorar el mapa de Colón. no le tengas 
miedo a borrar los errores ajenos. el edificio ahí al lado no existe, 
puedes quitarlo.
hola. no está **tan** mal la mejora que propusiste, pero no está 
completa y no está correcta. tu objetivo cuál es? porqué no mejoras 
los errores ajenos de al lado?
hola. que bien ver unas ediciones más que aceptables. bueno, podrías 
alinear mejor, quizás utilizando mejores herramientas. si necesitas 
apoyo, hay un grupo Telegram en que hablamos entre maperos interesados 
en Panamá.

https://t.me/Comunidad_OSM_Panama
hola, necesitas ayuda para mejorar tu estilo de mapeo? un campo de 
futbal que un compañero mapeó como edificio, le añadiste nombre, pero 
no mejoraste el error. nadie te está dando indicaciones? no perteneces 
a un grupo? si quieres, tenemos uno en Telegram: https://t.m...
nadie te está apoyando en el aprendizaje? mapeaste como edificio un 
campo de futbal. si necesitas ayuda por favor entra en el grupo 
Telegram https://t.me/Comunidad_OSM_Panama
hola. disculpa, pero demasiado aproximadas estas contribuciones. ponte 
en contacto con los maperos activos en Santiago para coordinar 
esfuerzos. gracias por tu interés en OSM, y ojalá sigas mejorando tus 
prácticas.
Hola Jaqueline. les pusieron una tarea demasiado complicada, mapeando 
como principiantes en zonas urbanas, y además los pusieron en zona 
donde ya hay un par de editores comprometidos con un resultado de 
buena calidad. te invito, como al resto del capítulo YMUP, a entrar en 
el grupo T...

















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Re: [OSM-talk] Your experience in reaching out to Maps.me users ?

[Mario Frasca]

My experience is limited to one person in Panamá, who's used two user 
names: Kielito and Kielito1.


He adds shops, one per changeset, he shortens names, and seldom uses 
capital letters.


https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=8527833

https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=8943003

As you can see, he only replied to 
https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/61198755, where I asked him where 
some object really belonged, given I would not expect a shop to be in 
the middle of a road.  "put it to the right, thank you" was the answer.  
something I did not do.  I have no idea why he thinks he can't edit once 
he's contributed data.


At a certain point I started systematically commenting to his changesets 
"who do you think is going to clean up your incomplete information?", 
before I alerted the DWG about it.  The reply I received from the DWG 
was that I should not scare away providers of valuable information.  I 
can't find the reply, to correctly quote text and attribute authorship 
of the reply.


regards, MF


On 04/12/2020 11:37, michael.montani95 at gmail.com (Michael Montani) wrote:

Dear all,

I'm calling back a discussion on this mailing list on how Maps.Me edits
most of the times result to be very bad and close to vandalism. Furthermore
it seems the editor hasn't any notification system (as iD and JOSM) to tell
the user that at least someone sent an OSM message.

We found out some users mapping very bad (and huge quantity) of POIs here
and there in:
- DRC: An user mapping over all the country, including sensible, temporary
data like an assault place in Irumu
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8018353585#map=19/1.45249/29.87712
(mapped as shop=butcher, with questionable dark sarcasm), plus many other
questionable ones
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/format%20answer/history#map=10/1.2949/29.9117
- Mali: An user putting thousands of office=government in Bamako and other
cities, making impossible to produce decent urban maps out of OSM data
within a capital city...
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/seydoukone/history#map=11/12.6172/-7.9153

What worries me the most is that no one of these users are answering to
messages (and it's very common among Maps.Me users as I see...) and even if
they could be reverted, nothing is letting them know that they are actually
vandalising the map. It's difficult also to proceed with full reverts
because some tags from time to time seem reasonable, but can be challenging
to verify on the ground.

I'm actually wondering about the causes of such bad tags, is Maps.Me using
preset names which are difficult to associate to actual tags? Should it be
mandatory for OSM editors to show OSM notifications? It seems also Maps.Me
itself is difficult to contact!! https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/13951

Thank you,
Michael Montani
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[talk-latam] YouthMappers Chapter @ Panamá University

[Mario Frasca]

Good day to the reader!

I'm escalating this question to the DWG because all other channels did 
not reach any effect.  This is not about an individual, nor a single 
action, it's about YMUP, the YouthMappers Chapter at the University of 
Panama, an organization that regularly provides new potential mappers to 
OSM, as part of their university curriculum.  Very few do stay mappers 
and hardly any ever react to comments on their few changesets.


My goal is **not** to prevent them from editing, but that we build a 
communication channel, stay in contact, and increase both quality of 
initial edits, quality of data left in our database, and percentage of 
chapter members staying with OSM.  Up to now all my attempts have failed 
and we (a couple of OSM editors in Panama, affected by the unpredictable 
editing activity of YMUP) plan to write to the parent institution of the 
Chapter, to inform them of the persistent misbehaviour.


To give some visibility to their activity, I've written the diary page:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mariotomo/diary/395025

I am not sure who's who other than the two mentors (Humberto Smith, 
maradames) and two previous chapter presidents (Karen Martinez, 
Maritza20r).  I do know that the chapter keeps a contact with Esri Panamá.


Maritza20r is the person who offers the most chance of reply when you 
write to her.


Based on their recent edits in Chiriquí and Mariato, I suppose that 
these are the current chapter members: Emilce Mejía, fanny16, Gerald21, 
Jean Felix Guevara, Johan J, Karen Martinez, Karoline1416, Luis Locano, 
maradames, Maríag08, Marianne_pty, Maritza20r, Nwalachosky18, 
RuthEscobar01, Tatianach1.


the most curious changeset I commented:

https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=12196736

these are the comments I provided to the changesets:

Karen Martinez: 
https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4366434


maradames: 
https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4366436


Maritza20r: 
https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4928257


Humberto Smith only provided three buildings in two changeset, I didn't 
consider commenting on that, even if naming a building 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/874435680) "Edificio" isn't something 
you would expect from a mentor.


The most recent complaint we filed against them was started by Mateusz 
Koniecny, who once again documented a failure to comply with the 
Organized Editing Guidelines and wrote to i...@youthmappers.org.  We did 
not receive a reply: the only visible action from the YMUP / 
YouthMappers International / HOT was that HOT opened two projects (9851 
and 9852) on top of two areas which I had previously mentioned to the 
YMUP as examples of organized activity, where I had defined two projects 
on the tasking manager gracefully offered by the Colombian OSM chapter. 
I had started experimenting with projects on tareas.openstreetmap.co 
expressly to learn how to help this YMUP chapter, as I wrote to members 
of the YMUP chapter, who never replied.


best regards,

Mario Frasca.


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Re: [OSM-talk] YouthMappers/HOT (dis)organized editing.

[Mario Frasca]

Dear John, thank you for helping thinking about the issue.

you mention, at least I recognize, three points:

- planning the mapathon —and let me add— publish this in the wiki, in 
compliance to the Organized Editing Guidelines (OEG);


- matching the place to be mapped with the mappers available (that is 
either focus on the place to be mapped and establish who should help, or 
on the people to introduce to OSM and consequently select a suitable 
place.);


- validation and closing the project.

let me first recall the situation and the events, because I think that 
OSM should require HOT to review their practices, and that together we 
provide some guidance to such beginners chapters, possibly based on the 
above three points.


- when in 2018 HOT assigned the 4917 project to OSM user PANAMA Manuel 
Quintero, he had very limited experience and proved affinity with the 
OSM database and community;


- when in 2019 YouthMappers supported the activity in Guna Nega, they 
should have required the opening of a HOT project for the task;


- in 2020 the same should have happened —and they're still on time to do 
that— for the scattered emergency mapping in: Río Sereno-Río Guizado; 
Volcán-Cerro Punta-Barrio Guadalupe; Boquete-Palmira Abajo; Río 
Chiquito/Río Quiqui; Soloy; La Esperanza-San Valentín (falls in the 4917 
area);


- This chapter makes no attempt at contacting either the local or the 
broader OSM communities, and turns a deaf ear to all input and offers 
for assistance, and gets very effective passive support by both YMI and 
HOT in their non compliance of the OEG.


back to the three points from your writing:

do you think my "recommendations" for the chapter's 2019 activity are of 
any value?


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Panam%C3%A1/Reuni%C3%B3n_2019-03-21

regards,

Mario Frasca


On 02/12/2020 16:50, john whelan wrote:
I would suggest that if someone could identify a list of mapping tasks 
suitable for beginners that might help this sort of thing happening 
again.


I'd done a fair amount of validation of HOT tasks in the past which 
I'm sure are similar and I'm more than aware of the amount of effort 
needed to validate after new untrained enthusiastic mappers have been 
mapping.  Especially when they map only a couple of times.


I'm also aware that it does take a lot of knowledge and resources to 
clean up afterwards.


Do we need a half page introduction to OSM? Something along the lines 
of if you are organising some sort of mapathon these are things you 
need to consider and theses are the sort of things that have caused 
problems in the past. I get the feeling the enthusiastic organisers 
are going to do it anyway but it help help a bit.


It doesn't help the present situation but it might help prevent more 
problems in the future.


Cheerio John


On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 16:29 Mario Frasca <mailto:ma...@anche.no>> wrote:


Hi Rory,

let's include the list, so you're talking with the whole
community, not just to me.

BACKGROUND: we're trying to have the YouthMappers Chapter of the
University of Panama consider they're mapping within OSM, that
there's a local community of mappers already mapping, and with
some experience in different fields.

unfortunately, the YMUP Chapter refuses to reply to comments to
their changesets, or to consider complaints about their low
quality of edits, and the sheer mass of beginners they throw into
not-too-simple tasks.  recently they had their yearly "Gis Day",
please don't ask me what it is, because I don't know, only that
there's a hashtag being used once a year by the YouthMappers UP
Chapter. also please don't ask me who's inside this chapter,
because I don't know.

when Mateusz wrote to i...@youthmappers.org
<mailto:i...@youthmappers.org> about their organized editing
activity without declaration of intents, the result of his writing
was that HOT opened two projects on top of two areas we from the
community were editing using the tasking manager from
tareas.openstreetmap.co <http://tareas.openstreetmap.co>, forcing
us to clean up the edits while they were coming in.  that's
Santiago and Colón.

in Santiago we reverted several changesets, and made the effort to
close their project so they would stay away from the work which
was anyway almost complete.

in Colón we stopped editing downtown, leaving it to the YMUP Chapter.

there's still no published plan from the chapter, Rory says that
they are reviewing the tasks they had opened, but apart from
beginner mapper agreenish
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/agreenish>, arguably adding to
the mass of mistakes, I don't see much editing activity in either
project.

I will write a diary entry, with images, and will try to make it a
structured presentation of what goes on here. there's statistical
data I've collect

Re: [OSM-talk] time to review

[Mario Frasca]

Dear Steve, thank you for reminding me there's something called ESRI.

they approached the Telegram group in March last year:

https://t.me/Comunidad_OSM_Panama/1641 



we were invited to a meeting, and I was able to accept the invitation.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ES:Panam%C3%A1/Reuni%C3%B3n_2019-03-21

this was in preparation of an ESRI event celebrating the 500 years of 
the city of Panama.  I had always assumed the event never took place.  
and I now guess it was this GisDay.  was it around November13th 2019?  
please notice how downplayed the role of YMUP.


the activity in Guna Nega do seem to follow step 1 in my 
recommendations, and it disregards all subsequent steps, in particular 
the last one.


needless to say, I never received feedback, nor acknowledgement for the 
input I provided during the meeting.


oh well.

Mario

On 02/12/2020 16:44, Steve Friedl wrote:


FWIW, GIS Day is a thing: https://www.gisday.com/en-us/overview 
<https://www.gisday.com/en-us/overview>


The local Governmental GIS Users group near me in California 
celebrates it every year, though this year only virtually.


No comment on the rest, just answering one data point.

Steve

---

Steve Friedl // Software guy + Volunteer mapper // Southern California USA

st...@unixwiz.net [OSM:SJFriedl] // OpenStreetMap MWG //  Fix ALL the 
maps!


*From:* Mario Frasca 
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 2, 2020 1:24 PM
*To:* Rory Nealon 
*Cc:* OSM Talk 
*Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] time to review

Hi Rory,

let's include the list, so you're talking with the whole community, 
not just to me.


BACKGROUND: we're trying to have the YouthMappers Chapter of the 
University of Panama consider they're mapping within OSM, that there's 
a local community of mappers already mapping, and with some experience 
in different fields.


unfortunately, the YMUP Chapter refuses to reply to comments to their 
changesets, or to consider complaints about their low quality of 
edits, and the sheer mass of beginners they throw into not-too-simple 
tasks.  recently they had their yearly "Gis Day", please don't ask me 
what it is, because I don't know, only that there's a hashtag being 
used once a year by the YouthMappers UP Chapter.  also please don't 
ask me who's inside this chapter, because I don't know.


when Mateusz wrote to i...@youthmappers.org 
<mailto:i...@youthmappers.org> about their organized editing activity 
without declaration of intents, the result of his writing was that HOT 
opened two projects on top of two areas we from the community were 
editing using the tasking manager from tareas.openstreetmap.co, 
forcing us to clean up the edits while they were coming in.  that's 
Santiago and Colón.


in Santiago we reverted several changesets, and made the effort to 
close their project so they would stay away from the work which was 
anyway almost complete.


in Colón we stopped editing downtown, leaving it to the YMUP Chapter.

there's still no published plan from the chapter, Rory says that they 
are reviewing the tasks they had opened, but apart from beginner 
mapper agreenish <https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/agreenish>, 
arguably adding to the mass of mistakes, I don't see much editing 
activity in either project.


I will write a diary entry, with images, and will try to make it a 
structured presentation of what goes on here.  there's statistical 
data I've collected that shows just how organized the edits from YMUP, 
and I find it quite insulting, the mismatch between the words by 
YouthMappers International, the call for patience by HOT, and the 
continued self-boasting by this local Chapter, while we need to do the 
cleaning up.


you know … I am editing Morocco, that's more relaxing. hopefully no 
YouthMappers there.


ciao,

Mario

On 02/12/2020 15:52, Rory Nealon wrote:

Hi Mario,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.  I will try and contact
the chapter and get an answer for you.  The last I heard was that
they had begun to validate the tasks they had created.

Cheers,

Rory

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 4:53 PM Mario Frasca mailto:ma...@anche.no>> wrote:

Dear Rory,

let me insist, I wish to have an estimate of how long we
should wait,
for the YMUP to review their edits?

as you have read from his complaint to YMI, Markusz assumes
something
like "at the end of the day", even if he wrote the complaint 4
days
after the edit — which he fixed himself.

maybe too strict myself, because I would say "the next day",
which could
be "the next available day".

in particular since this looks like episodic edits, not
ongoing activities.

so, what is the time we should allow before concluding they
abandoned
the location?

a week?  (slow, but could fit in a low activity group)

a month?  (very slo

Re: [OSM-talk] time to review

[Mario Frasca]

I forgot to include links to the tasks:

in Colón I had created a project to assist a mapper from USA keep the 
rest of us informed about his progress, and as said YMUP requested a 
project on top of it.  I have marked as unavailable the area of their 
project.


https://tareas.openstreetmap.co/project/174 — 
https://tasks.hotosm.org/projects/9851/


in Santiago a local user was attempting a complete insertion of all 
buildings, I offered him a project in the tasking manger, but he was 
already proceeding with his own todo-list.  again YMUP requested a 
project on top of this already ongoing activity.  to prevent this from 
interfering with our project, we marked all tasks in their project as 
completed and validated.  we've not received any comment to our action.


https://tareas.openstreetmap.co/project/170 — 
https://tasks.hotosm.org/projects/9852/




in San Miguelito they had opened a project, and this one was the focus 
of their GisDay 2020


https://tasks.hotosm.org/projects/9844/

for the GisDay 2019, the chapter edited around the Guna Nega area.  I'm 
not sure what was achieved.


for the GisDay 2018, the chapter had HOT open project 4917, which was 
left stagnant until I insisted that it be closed.


this as far as I understood, but I'm not sure, because I have not yet 
had the pleasure to hear any details from the involved persons.


Mario Frasca


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Re: [OSM-talk] time to review

[Mario Frasca]

Hi Rory,

let's include the list, so you're talking with the whole community, not 
just to me.


BACKGROUND: we're trying to have the YouthMappers Chapter of the 
University of Panama consider they're mapping within OSM, that there's a 
local community of mappers already mapping, and with some experience in 
different fields.


unfortunately, the YMUP Chapter refuses to reply to comments to their 
changesets, or to consider complaints about their low quality of edits, 
and the sheer mass of beginners they throw into not-too-simple tasks.  
recently they had their yearly "Gis Day", please don't ask me what it 
is, because I don't know, only that there's a hashtag being used once a 
year by the YouthMappers UP Chapter.  also please don't ask me who's 
inside this chapter, because I don't know.


when Mateusz wrote to i...@youthmappers.org about their organized 
editing activity without declaration of intents, the result of his 
writing was that HOT opened two projects on top of two areas we from the 
community were editing using the tasking manager from 
tareas.openstreetmap.co, forcing us to clean up the edits while they 
were coming in.  that's Santiago and Colón.


in Santiago we reverted several changesets, and made the effort to close 
their project so they would stay away from the work which was anyway 
almost complete.


in Colón we stopped editing downtown, leaving it to the YMUP Chapter.

there's still no published plan from the chapter, Rory says that they 
are reviewing the tasks they had opened, but apart from beginner mapper 
agreenish <https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/agreenish>, arguably 
adding to the mass of mistakes, I don't see much editing activity in 
either project.


I will write a diary entry, with images, and will try to make it a 
structured presentation of what goes on here.  there's statistical data 
I've collected that shows just how organized the edits from YMUP, and I 
find it quite insulting, the mismatch between the words by YouthMappers 
International, the call for patience by HOT, and the continued 
self-boasting by this local Chapter, while we need to do the cleaning up.


you know … I am editing Morocco, that's more relaxing.  hopefully no 
YouthMappers there.


ciao,

Mario


On 02/12/2020 15:52, Rory Nealon wrote:

Hi Mario,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.  I will try and contact the 
chapter and get an answer for you.  The last I heard was that they had 
begun to validate the tasks they had created.


Cheers,


Rory

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 4:53 PM Mario Frasca <mailto:ma...@anche.no>> wrote:


Dear Rory,

let me insist, I wish to have an estimate of how long we should wait,
for the YMUP to review their edits?

as you have read from his complaint to YMI, Markusz assumes something
like "at the end of the day", even if he wrote the complaint 4 days
after the edit — which he fixed himself.

maybe too strict myself, because I would say "the next day", which
could
be "the next available day".

in particular since this looks like episodic edits, not ongoing
activities.

so, what is the time we should allow before concluding they abandoned
the location?

a week?  (slow, but could fit in a low activity group)

a month?  (very slow, one forgets what they were doing)

    a year?  (ah? next group, please?)

best regards, Mario Frasca



--
*/Rory Nealon (he/him)/*
*/Senior GIS Analyst & YouthMappers Activity Manager/*
*/US Agency for International Development/*
*/Washington, DC/*
*/+1 202.468.7890/*
*/GeoCenter MyUSAID Site <https://pages.usaid.gov/theLab/CGS/geocenter>/*

/*The Geographic Approach to Development 
<https://usaid.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=92ef58b1014745c5b2a3338c42fd3674>*/



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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mario Frasca]

Hi.  this is funny, I recently opened an issue with AllTrails, about 
them not attributing the map.


I wonder if we're talking about the same thing: their Android App shows 
a bright colourful Google logo on top of whatever map you configure as 
your base map.  in particular, it can be shown on top of the standard 
OSM map.  there is attribution, but it's in a pop-up window.  to 
activate this window you need eagle eyes, and spot a faint low contrast 
circled lowercase letter "i" (like an info sign, but as said, small, low 
contrast), once spotted, you have to be able to activate it, which isn't 
easy since this widget is on second plane half hidden behind a large 
high contrast + widget.  Attribution in this pop up window is first to 
Mapbox, then to OpenStreetMap, this sequence is so even if you're 
looking at our standard OSM map, and you're not looking at anything 
belonging to Mapbox.


anyhow, the issue with AllTrails is #125657.

on the 18th of October, that's 7 days ago, I wrote about this to 
legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org (which was redirected to 
d...@openstreetmap.org), then again to le...@osmfoundation.org, and I'm 
not so sure what's the status of the call, because our issue tracking 
system assigned my report to the DWG, while it's clearly a LWG issue.


I did correct the wiki page on our wiki, I can't edit the wrong 
information at 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licensing_Working_Group.  I 
mentioned this already on the #osm channel at the oftc irc server.


anyhow, it's several issue shere, only one related to AllTrails, most 
are about our bad organization.


best regards,

Mario Frasca

On 10/09/2020 09:12, miketho16 at gmail.com (Mike Thompson) wrote:

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:02 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:


Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of OSM
without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that they
offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very least it
appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that because I
have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up
in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
Mike

[0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
trail, park, or city to see their map.)


It looks like AllTrails now correctly attributes OpenStreetMap.  Those of
you more familiar with the licensing might want to chime in and let me know
if simply stating "(c) OpenStreetMap" instead of "(c) OpenStreetMap
Contributors" is adequate (also, keep in mind that only some of their map
data comes from OSM).  If it is adequate, I will send Ron a note thanking
him, and starting the conversation between him and the DWG about AllTrails
directing data issues directly to the DWG.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Mario Frasca]

I wish to add some nuance to Frederik's opinion:

On 12/05/2020 07:06, Frederik Ramm wrote:

The scarce resource in this project are still mappers, not consumers.


as far as my experience goes, in most places where I've been the scarce 
resource is people on the spot: __local__ mappers with access to the 
internet and some motivation to share knowledge.


an other rare factor is the ability to talk cross-communities. you might 
not notice it here in this group, or in the Telegram group, because the 
participants are all from the same community, while there are others, 
quite different from what you meet here. there's people who will require 
"speak my language (please), because I don't understand yours" (and this 
will be said in whichever language), and the language barrier is the 
least of the problems, because you may well read/write Spanish, or 
English, but I've witnessed Americans and Europeans speaking the same 
language, but not managing to focus on the issue, because —if you ask 
me— some irrelevant but fundamental formal error.


let's leave the above aside for a moment.

I do not know how to motivate local mappers.  people simply do not share 
knowledge if there's not a short term payback, I'm guessing here, but 
maybe they fear losing the exclusivity of the information, I don't 
know.  bus drivers were happy to keep a phone in their car to let me 
record the route, but I've approached tourist operators, asking for 
"where's that petroglyph", or "would you record how you walk to the 
waterfall", to no avail, during a couple of months in a touristic area 
in Panama.  "strategically" touristic.  just check who's been mapping 
the area of Santa Fe, Veraguas, Panama, how many local people.  and how 
many GPS traces are available.  it's not just 'mappers' which are 
scarce, it's the whole idea of sharing information which should be 
worked upon.


and who knows the cross-community ability would help.

Mario Frasca



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Re: [OSM-talk] Let's talk Attribution

[Mario Frasca]

On 02/05/2020 09:54, Yves wrote:

IMHO, a a/b/c/d kind of vote like for the last Article of Association change 
would be preferable to really have a more representative idea of the 
contributor feelings. Could the OSMF set up such a process?


only related to the voting method, what method is used currently?  when 
you offer more than two options, and you want to choose one, there's 
criteria to consider, and "first past the post" is a bad strategy.


if you like reading things in latin, there's the original literature 
/Ars notandi/, /Ars eleccionis/, and /Alia ars eleccionis/ by 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramon_Llull/

/

I think this is a very clear example: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_method#Example:_Voting_on_the_location_of_Tennessee's_capital


and otherwise a more detailed description here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method (this is used by Debian).
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Re: [OSM-talk] Let's talk Attribution

[Mario Frasca]

On 28/04/2020 15:01, Kathleen Lu wrote:
I know no major open source license that requires attribution *in the 
UI that the user sees without clicking on anything*. 


oh, but thinking of code I don't particularly care about the UI.

I care about the code, and if I release some code as GPL, you as a user 
have the right to receive the code, and you as a further developer have 
the right to do whatever you want with the code, but NOT to change the 
license, nor to remove me from the copyright holders.


so again you as a user looking into the code are expected to find my 
name (and that of all previous and subsequent authors).


the header of the code, that's the place where the attribution is expected.

roughly equivalent to some corner in the displayed map, that's what the 
license says, right?


the point which surprises me (and IIUC Skyler), is that you state 
something in the license, then you seem not to particularly care if it's 
respected, or not.


MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] Let's talk Attribution

[Mario Frasca]

for what it matters, I completely subscribe Skyler's position.

I'm a software engineer, and I produce GPL and AGPL software (not LGPL), 
but I do not have the power to enforce anything, I just hope that people 
will be considerate.


it's surprising that the lax attitude comes from a committee having all 
necessary power.


MF

On 27/04/2020 22:43, Skyler Hawthorne wrote:

As a new contributor, and a software engineer, it is surprising to learn that 
there is such a lax attitude towards lack of attribution. Every open source 
software license I can think of has attribution as a central tenet. People 
spend their free time on this stuff, and they do it because they care about it. 
There are people who get pretty upset when they find others using their hard 
work for their own gain without so much as a footnote (which is really all the 
guidelines appear to be asking for).

Attribution matters. It lets people know what the project is and that it 
positively impacted their lives. And equally importantly, it bestows a modicum 
of respect and gratitude to the volunteers who spend their free time making the 
project what it is.

--
Skyler

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Re: [OSM-talk] remove the suggestion to credit "contributors"

[Mario Frasca]

On 17/04/2020 11:27, Kathleen Lu wrote:
The correct attribution legally speaking is just to OpenStreetMap, no 
© symbol. That's because OSMF is sublicensing any copyright rights and 
licensing any database rights together under the ODbL,.The © is also 
leftover from CC-BY-SA days. 


maybe the © does help understanding that the following text 
(OpenStreetMap) is a copyright statement.



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Re: [OSM-talk] remove the suggestion to credit "contributors"

[Mario Frasca]

On 17/04/2020 11:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
you’re Italian, you might be more familiar with diritto d’autore, 
which is not exactly the same as copyright
I was born in Naples, and I have an Italian passport, but I might be 
more familiar with the Dutch terms.  anyhow, my difficulties are more 
related to your explanations to the contract, than to the contract 
itself and the basic terminology.


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Re: [OSM-talk] remove the suggestion to credit "contributors"

[Mario Frasca]

Hi,

maybe I'm not reading too attentively, but what I understand is that the 
contract is about licensing, while the copyright on what the contract 
calls 'Your Contents' stays mine.


that is what I thought when I wrote:

if you say that "© OpenStreetMap" is the same as "© OpenStreetMap 
contributors", I'm fine. 
I have the impression you are confusing copyright ownership with 
licensing and authorization to sub-licensing.


Legally, the copyright actually belongs to the Foundation (and 
individual contributors retain their copyright, but grant usage and 
distribution rights to the OSMF).
somehow I keep finding your parenthesized explanations confusing. if 
you're right in your out-of-parentheses statement, I would probably 
reconsider my position as contributor.


MF

On 17/04/2020 09:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Am Fr., 17. Apr. 2020 um 15:37 Uhr schrieb Mario Frasca 
mailto:ma...@anche.no>>:


but if you argue that OpenStreetMap is owned by
OpenStreetMapFoundation
and that "© OpenStreetMap" means "© OpenStreetMapFoundation", then
I'd
rather stick to the current situation, where it's very clear that the
copyright belongs to contributors, be it as individuals or as a
community.



I tried to look at the legal situation (morally, I agree that 
OpenStreetMap is more about the community than 
OpenStreetMapFoundation, indeed that's an unmentioned reason why I 
suggested OpenStreetMap and not the foundation to be credited also in 
an updated version.


Legally, the copyright actually belongs to the Foundation (and 
individual contributors retain their copyright, but grant usage and 
distribution rights to the OSMF). It is written in the contract you 
have signed with the OSMF (contributor terms). If you download data 
from OpenStreetMap, your licensor is the OSMF. You have authorized the 
OSMF to distribute the content on their behalf, and to pursue 
copyright infringements.


"You hereby grant to OSMF a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, 
perpetual, irrevocable licence to do any act that is restricted by 
copyright, database right or any related right over anything within 
the Contents, whether in the original medium or any other. These 
rights explicitly include commercial use, and do not exclude any field 
of endeavour. These rights include, without limitation, the right to 
sub-license the work through multiple tiers of sub-licensees and to 
sue for any copyright violation directly connected with OSMF's rights 
under these terms. To the extent allowable under applicable local laws 
and copyright conventions, You also waive and/or agree not to assert 
against OSMF or its licensees any moral rights that You may have in 
the Contents."


There are also some conditions of course, "OSMF agrees that it may 
only use or sub-license Your Contents as part of a database and only 
under the terms of one or more of the following licences: ODbL 1.0 for 
the database and DbCL 1.0 for the individual contents of the database; 
CC-BY-SA 2.0; or such other free and open licence as may from time to 
time be chosen by a vote of the OSMF membership and approved by at 
least a 2/3 majority vote of active contributors."


And of course in 5 you have mutually agreed, that "except as set forth 
herein, You reserve all right, title, and interest in and to Your 
Contents."


https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Contributor_Terms

The excerpts are copied from the current version 1.2.4.
There isn't much information (or I didn't find it) to which specific 
version one has agreed, nor is the text of former versions publicly 
visible, but AFAIK OSMF has internally a trace of who has agreed to 
which version, and of course people will have their own copies on 
their pc.
I don't recall agreeing to any updated versions of the Contributor 
Terms after 2012, and I guess nobody has, you always agreed to the 
current version when you signed up (or at the license change in 2012), 
so your contract with the OSMF may be slightly different.


Cheers
Martin






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Re: [OSM-talk] remove the suggestion to credit "contributors"

[Mario Frasca]

On 17/04/2020 04:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
What about removing [the trailing "contributors" from the © 
attribution], so that the required credit becomes "© OpenStreetMap" 
(it could also be © OpenStreetMapFoundation, but maybe "© 
OpenStreetMap" would be sufficient, given that OpenStreetMap is a 
brand owned by the OpenStreetMapFoundation)?


I find the explanatory text in parentheses confusing.

I'm fine with associating OSM with its contributors, so if you say that 
"© OpenStreetMap" is the same as "© OpenStreetMap contributors", I'm fine.


but if you argue that OpenStreetMap is owned by OpenStreetMapFoundation 
and that "© OpenStreetMap" means "© OpenStreetMapFoundation", then I'd 
rather stick to the current situation, where it's very clear that the 
copyright belongs to contributors, be it as individuals or as a community.




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Re: [OSM-talk] traceability of edits

[Mario Frasca]

according to Apple, in the person of Andrew Wiseman, 
https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues/159 is not an issue and can 
be closed with no further action on Apple's side.


fortunately, there's a couple of persons commenting on it, maybe it 
helps if it's more?


Mario Frasca


On 13/03/2020 07:50, Mario Frasca wrote:
I've opened this issue, and I'm sharing it here because I think it's 
an issue for the community.


https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues/159


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[OSM-talk] traceability of edits

[Mario Frasca]

I've opened this issue, and I'm sharing it here because I think it's an 
issue for the community.


https://github.com/osmlab/appledata/issues/159


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Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

On 11/03/2020 09:37, Simon Poole wrote:


As I wrote (conveniently ignored in the noise of the vigilante 
rampage): "The safe, I admit also the less fun, option, is to simply 
block access after giving any required notice."



Hi Simon.  let me provide you my individual reason for ignoring your option.

I fear that blocking access will push people to other services. whatever 
you say about costs and resources, favouring Mr.G. can never be an 
acceptable outcome.


I also think that "giving any required notice" needs an acknowledgement, 
like others have remarked: you write an email to the web master, and if 
anybody ever receives it, it's not the relevant people.


this French experiment is a very nice one, it has proved effective, and 
I invite the author to share more of their positive experience.  may I 
suggest identifying metrics, estimate them from the French experiment, 
and use them to adapt and repeat the experience from a different 
server.  that is, if anybody is noticing any similar abuse.  maybe the 
French were in some sort of special situation.


in the altered experiment, you may even include the formal approach: 
"write to web master, wait one week without reply, write again, no 
reply, block the service, check how long it takes them to show Google Maps".


Mario


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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution

[Mario Frasca]

that would be VERY nice, if you managed to achieve this.

On 10/03/2020 06:46, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote:

In addition if the mapper works for a company:
#
e.g. #facebook
#amazon
#microsoft
#apple


I've been asking about the '#apple' hashtag, for quite a while, straight 
from Andrew Wiseman, but I don't seem to be able to make myself 
understood, or heard.


they have their team, you can find their edits matching changeset 
timestamp with historic team composition, if you really insist.


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[OSM-talk] checking before massive deletion

[Mario Frasca]

hello here,

I wish to get some sort of support in a decision regarding data which I 
find hard to verify, and actually also hard to believe.


years ago ArielRod completed this changeset: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/17323627


I have asked about the source, and got no reply.

the above is not an isolated changeset, for there are at the moment 995 
place=* on ArielRod's name in the "Comarca Ngäbe Buglé", and 342 in 
Chiriquí.  these are the points added by this user, and not edited by 
others.  but there are more, where people have edited them downgrading 
place to isolated_dwelling, just in doubt instead of deletion, I suppose.


the alleged source is the census for the year 2010, but the 
corresponding document, as far as I managed to search 
(https://inec.gob.pa/archivos/P3551P3551cuadro3.xls) does not contain 
coordinates.


I have zoomed into quite a few of these points marked as place=hamlet, 
and in most cases I do not see anything that could justify the presence 
of a `isolated_dwelling`.  in some cases, there is something, but is it 
sheer chance?  could well be.


one example for all, Node: Bulite (2416914927), marked as hamlet, 
supposedly 5 houses according to the census.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2416914927#map=17/8.54709/-81.76901=D

around this node, at less than 1.0km, there's 18 more place=hamlet, by 
the same user.


in the same area, I do see a few buildings (I haven't mapped any), but 
not near the place=* nodes.


of these 19 nodes, only 8 are actually mentioned, verbatim, in the 2010 
census.  but still, whether they have been thrown at a random location, 
or placed here for any other reason, that's obscure to me.


so far the situation.

I would like to do some cleaning up, and am considering deleting all 
such nodes added by this user, either edited by others, or not.  I have 
commented so much in the Panama Telegram Group, where a few local 
editors are active, asking for their opinion.  none has been expressed 
so far.  I would not want to act without some support.


I could also leave it as it is.  after all, why should I care?

comments will be very welcome,

best regards, Mario Frasca


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Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

On 08/03/2020 15:15, Pierre Béland via talk wrote:

semi transparent


the problem here is technical.

I'm rewording here something that was said to me here today:

I don't think you can reply with a composite object (tile + 
transparency) to a request for a single image object.  for this, you 
need to either compute the tile on the fly, for example using 
imagemagick, or you need to keep a parallel tiles repository, with the 
transparency on top of the original tile.


technical, and economical, in terms of server space and the human action 
required.




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Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

On 08/03/2020 04:14, Christian Quest wrote:
the most visible one is the moroco yellow page service, generating a 
little less than a million daily tile requests on our servers.

On 08/03/2020 10:42, Mario Frasca wrote:

what further steps does your team plan?


for example with the above heavy user?

just an attribution, that's still not enough, is it?

Mario


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Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

Hi Michael and Christian,

I don't know if there's any other way than going through imagemagick, if 
that's the only way, then sure it would cause extra work on (y)our 
servers.  if that's too much, let the server manager measure and decide.


my approach was trying to find a solution to the problem raised by Simon 
Poole, not to deface any web site relying on OSM.  or we would put the 
wrongdoing on our side.


but then, that was what just »I would probably do« … maybe after half an 
hour spent on trying to do it this way, I would fall back to Christian's 
way.


"whatever works"

btw, Christian, you are measuring the effects of your action, and the 
timings.  you started with 20 "abusers", you got immediate effect on 
some, then you added the email address in the tile, and got more 
results, how far are you now?  and what further steps does your team plan?


ciao,

Mario

On 08/03/2020 10:11, Michael Reichert wrote:

Hi Mario,

Am 08/03/2020 um 16.00 schrieb Mario Frasca:

well, it does look slightly invasive … I had imagined something like a
transparent text on top of the requested tile.  doing it the way you are
doing it, you are removing part of the underlying information.

A transparent overlay requires calling Imagemagick or a similar tool for
each tile and to cache the results. It makes the setup more complicated
and requires more processing power. Should we spend even more volunteer
time and donations on abusers? No.

Best regards

Michael


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Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

well, it does look slightly invasive … I had imagined something like a 
transparent text on top of the requested tile.  doing it the way you are 
doing it, you are removing part of the underlying information.  it is 
true that the user can zoom in or out, and the chance that the same are 
is also hidden is, as you state, 4%, but still. … did you experiment 
with a transparency added on top of the requested tile?  that's how I 
would probably do it, and I would only use the lower text, not the top 
icon and bold text, using a smooth opaque mask to make sure the text 
stays well visible, separated from the background.


in practice, I would only add what they need to add themselves, and not 
remove anything.


On 08/03/2020 09:39, Christian Quest wrote:

Here are a few examples:

http://www.ardennes-neige.be/
http://autogas-network.co.uk/
http://mapa.guadalajara.gob.mx/basura
http://vivenda.hercesa.ro/
https://www.visitarnhem.com/routes/wandelroutes

The reminder tiles is in available english and french:

https://tilecache.openstreetmap.fr/attribution-en.png
https://tilecache.openstreetmap.fr/attribution-fr.png

I mix both at different locations on the maps.

Automatic attribution checking for one day of log files now takes 
around 20 minutes.


I'll clean the nginx config file and share it.


Le 08/03/2020 à 15:05, Mario Frasca a écrit :

On 08/03/2020 05:04, Yves wrote:
Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect, I may consider it 
for Opensnowmap tiles policy? 

On 08/03/2020 06:12, Simon Poole wrote:

anything that deliberately defaces a web site

On 08/03/2020 07:13, Christian Quest wrote:

just 1 tile out of 25


very interesting experiment, and very amusing results.  bravo.

I would say that 1 in 25 is low enough as not to be considered 
"defacing" a web site.  what text have you used, concretely, which 
had the impact you describe?  in my opinion the shortest, the better, 
and I guess you did NOT use »It looks like this site forgot to put 
the required attribution in this map corner, so we added it for them. 
Thx for using OpenStreetMap !«, did you?  it was in French, wasn't it?


my best guess would be nothing else than the attribution text, and 
some help to solve their situation, or to get in contact with you.


I absolutely share the point of view "contact emails lead to no 
contact", and the "whatever works" policy.  this seem to work, so 
again, chapeau!


indeed, it would be interesting to see your nginx partial redirect.

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] #AttributionIsNotOptional experiment on OSM France tile servers

[Mario Frasca]

On 08/03/2020 05:04, Yves wrote:
Ps: would you share your nginx partial redirect, I may consider it for 
Opensnowmap tiles policy? 

On 08/03/2020 06:12, Simon Poole wrote:

anything that deliberately defaces a web site

On 08/03/2020 07:13, Christian Quest wrote:

just 1 tile out of 25


very interesting experiment, and very amusing results.  bravo.

I would say that 1 in 25 is low enough as not to be considered 
"defacing" a web site.  what text have you used, concretely, which had 
the impact you describe?  in my opinion the shortest, the better, and I 
guess you did NOT use »It looks like this site forgot to put the 
required attribution in this map corner, so we added it for them. Thx 
for using OpenStreetMap !«, did you?  it was in French, wasn't it?


my best guess would be nothing else than the attribution text, and some 
help to solve their situation, or to get in contact with you.


I absolutely share the point of view "contact emails lead to no 
contact", and the "whatever works" policy.  this seem to work, so again, 
chapeau!


indeed, it would be interesting to see your nginx partial redirect.

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

btw:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Shared_boundary_features

On 29/02/2020 08:03, Jo wrote:
'-' might be used in the name itself, ' - ' never will be. I think 
readability is better with ' - ' than with ' / ', but I guess it's a 
matter of taste.


apparently, of regional taste.  in Morocco they don't separate 
(different alphabets), also the Canale di Sicilia has no separator 
Italian-Arabic, in Slovenia they use '/', in Südtirol-Alto Adige they 
use '-'.  OSM says '/', and suggests ordering alphabetically.  I've 
thrown two edits into the map, Gulf of Trieste and Gulf of Venezia, and 
explained why I put Italian first in the changeset comment.  I would 
like locals from Ex-Yugoslavia to review, and decide if they feel 
comfortable with that, or if they insist in the alphabetic ordering, if 
Croatian insist in having their language appear also in the Gulf of 
Trieste, if we should consider Slovenia as bordering with the Gulf of 
Venezia.  I would say it's important to hear locals.


Mario


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/81476133

On 25/02/2020 19:22, Alan Mackie wrote:
The labels would probably need to be tied together into a relation to 
avoid this


sorry, I considered as if this was always already the case.

Gulf of Venice and Gulf of Trieste are both already relations.

I assumed this would be the case elsewhere too. it was my understanding 
that my suggestion would use the already present complexity, not add to 
it.  please prove me wrong in a couple of relevant cases.  then we can 
look at them.



On 25/02/2020 19:22, Alan Mackie wrote:
You also don't know if you're looking at multiple separately named 
regions or one large feature with multiple translations.


not sure I understand this one.  can you exemplify?

ah, you mean, I would see a label in a language I can't read, and I 
might not even recognize it as belonging to the same feature. but, I 
mean, we're speaking of the showcase, not of a properly localized map, 
so who cares?


on the other hand, designing and programming such a complication just 
for a showcase isn't maybe worth the effort.  so: I don't know.


MF



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 25/02/2020 18:39, Alan Mackie wrote:
so long as there won't be an edit war over precedence. Languages 
separated by "/" or similar.


OSM in Morocco uses the `-` (dash) as separator.  (they have two and 
locally three national languages)


I'll try this for the Gulf of Venice and Trieste, and see where we 
land.  I will not re-edit if someone changes order nor removes content, 
but I might choose to comment on any subsequent changeset, possibly also 
alert the DWG.


regarding the seas where the `name` has disappeared altogether, I will 
not put English back: I will choose a couple of languages, and invite 
other native speakers of bordering countries to add their own, and to 
see for themselves if the name is becoming too space demanding in the 
rendering.


I will do nothing for areas where they speak a language I can't even 
read (East Asia).


---

placing a localized version of the name tag in front of the 
corresponding language area is still an option I support.  Red Sea would 
be a nice test-bed, just like the Ostsee.


Adding a language name to the URL schema does not look so difficult to 
me, what's going to be difficult is paying the money needed to hold the 
data.


anyhow, stop me if you think this plan is nonsensical.

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all reached.

we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss in 
English".


as for the values of the `name` tag:

I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.

I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".

I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of 
Trieste" for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area where 
Friuls is a recognized language), and Slovenia.


and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a 
language identifier to the tile request.


I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.

MF

On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:

I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that "this 
is a settled matter."
SteveA


Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name” z
obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
graniczących z państwami.
Dziękuję za dyskusję

La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de maroj
apudaj al landoj.
Dankon por diskuto

The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the tag
“name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
adjacent to the countries.
Thank you for discussion

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 25/02/2020 14:46, stevea wrote:

Evidently there is more to say about this


my impression at the moment is that we have different expectations from 
"the" map, that's the tiles at 
https://c.tile.openstreetmap.org/11/1100/731.png and similar URLs.


is their purpose "showcasing the OSM database" ?

or is it "offering a one-fits-all" solution to having some minimal base 
for stuff like umap, or any site we develop, using leaflet for example.


if it's just showcasing, it's working fine.

but since it's being used, just to give an example, at 
umap.openstreetmap.co, then no, it does not fit.


if OSM was receiving as much money as those billionaires running for the 
presidency of the USA, I would dare ask:


keep the current site displaying whatever value is stored in `name`, 
then add a URL schema to let the client request a specific language.  if 
objects have English in their `name`, who would care less, if we could 
request the tiles in the language we prefer? start with a couple of 
languages, like Spanish, French, and I do not dare to continue this 
imperialistic list.


would this be beyond reach for the Foundation?

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 25/02/2020 14:22, stevea wrote:

as an emerging (emerged?) consensus we seem to be leaving the names of 
international objects in English


I wish to express my disagreement.

and I will give more examples, from openstreetmap.org, "the" map.

Gulf of Venice; Gulf of Trieste; unlabelled Mare Adriatico; North Sea; 
unlabelled Ostsee; unlabelled Canale di Otranto; Balearic Sea (you're 
kidding me!); unlabelled Mediterranean; unlabelled Red Sea; unlabelled 
seas and straits West of Japan; unlabelled Bering Strait;


so while I do feel uncomfortable seeing English labels between Venezia, 
Trst/Trieste and Istria, I am even more uncomfortable with the absence 
of labels elsewhere.




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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

right, looks like we keep focusing on the pointless point.

On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:
Esperanto is a better choice because it takes much less time to learn 
it than to learn English.


I doubt this.  you don't need Shakespeare or Chaucer for technical 
English communication.  just use a pidgin, easy enough. hardly any 
grammar.  you can even forget about articles.  poor native speakers, who 
have to cope with us!


On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:
I just want everyone on the international list to use a comfortable 
language


I *am* comfortable with English, thank you for your consideration and 
effort.  if you want to know, I am comfortable, in decreasing order, 
with Italian, Spanish, English, Dutch, French, German and possibly 
Portuguese, (Maarten: I'm counting Dutch and German as if it was two 
languages. :-P en dat grappig taaltje van jou, is het Limburgs?  zeer 
schattig hoor!)  But Esperanto? no, I can't read it, I tend to just skip 
to the end of the text.  Polish?  I made an attempt, it's by far the 
most difficult language I have ever met.


automated translations?  they go through English, mostly, and they fail 
terribly when doing two passes.  some languages are still beyond the 
reach of most translation algorithms.  I would NOT rely on them.


so if you are concerned about comfort, you have my personal preferences.

oh, right, sorry, I'm just one, not the community.

do we want to choose a language here?  imagine we do that, and we use 
the Schutze method for it?  do you think the outcome won't be English?  
really?


On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:

This is the dictatorship of the majority.


call it as you prefer.  I guess this is how the democratic decision 
process works.  majority dictates.  unless you prefer oligarchies 
(minority dictates), or theocracies (priests dictate), or plutocracies 
(money dictates)…  right, you call OSM a plutocracy, since the people 
who finance it are deciding for the rest.  but, hey, they are paying, 
and we may use it gratis, and even make money with it.  I don't feel 
like complaining you know!


MF

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 24/02/2020 06:53, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

It is quite reasonable to question the use of English in the `name=`
tag for the Baltic Sea.

It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans,
continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would
specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as
the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a
rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas
surrounding by a large number of language areas.

For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag,
since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or
user can pick the language in that case.

- Joseph Eisenberg


As far as I can understand, Tomek is making two points, one about the 
use of the `name` tag for objects where the English language hardly 
applies (seas surrounded by language areas which do not include English, 
or only marginally so), and one about the communication language in this 
list.  This second point has attracted most attention, and has made it 
hard to keep a constructive discussion about the first.


2: my writing back in French, and hints to Tomek to do the same, or to 
choose German, was a way to shush away the language fight, and keep the 
discussion going.  I finally switched to Italian in despair, because I 
wanted Tomek to feel like I feel looking at his two hardly intelligible 
niche languages, none of them listed in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers, 
nor appearing in the 1997 George Weber’s list of 10 most influential 
languages.


3: I think there's a third point related to internationalization, not at 
this surface language level, but deeper, when presenting concepts behind 
concrete tags in a way that would be more recognizable by non-European 
mappers.  (I include into "European" everybody with roots in Europe.)  I 
think this is a relevant point, not least because I keep seeing edits in 
Panama changing `unclassified` to `track` only because (this is my 
interpretation): the road is unpaved, people prefer looking at pictures 
than reading, the picture for the agricultural `track` looks much more 
recognizable than the one for the `unclassified` road, possibly and 
marginally because `unclassified` does not ring any bell outside the UK.


1: at some point in the discussion, I myself suggested adding a 
`label:=` tag, so that larger water masses would have 
several names, each positioned near the corresponding language area.


1: also someone (sorry for not looking it up) mentioned "the" map having 
become "the map" not intentionally, but as if by chance or 
misunderstanding.  OSM is a database, and when looking at 
openstreetmap.org you see a possible rendering, in the default 
language.  look at openstreetmap.fr and it will be in French, or 
openstreetmap.de/karte.html for German.


1: actually, please think about the three above examples (.org, .fr, 
.de), and you might see that indeed the `name` tag is out of place, 
since "the map" does not exist outside of the example running on 
openstreetmap.org.  But, Tomek, I would start by making the point there, 
and suggest their renderer to be fixed, and to be heard you need to 
write in English, since you would be speaking to British people.


Tomek, you have a point in what you write, but please have yourself 
heard, and not just experienced as nasty and conflictive.  People, let's 
try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek, please help us 
here, do choose a "top 3" language in your communications.


https://web.archive.org/web/20110927062910/http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm

ciao, MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

scusami Tomek, ma perché scrivi in polacco quando nessuno ti capisce?

vuoi discutere (ti prego, cerca il suo significato etimologico), o vuoi 
… come si dice educatamente … "annoiare" ?  (in effetti sono tre le 
parole che mi vengono in mente, e che esprimono con maggior precisione 
il concetto.)


se proprio insisti a non voler scrivere in Inglese, usa il Francese o il 
Tedesco, cioè un'altra lingua internazionale riconosciuta dall'Unione 
Europea, Unione di cui fa parte anche la Polonia, o adattati a che 
ciascuno ti risponda nella lingua che preferisce, facendo di tutto ciò 
una conversazione fra sordi.


while I do think that some terms and images and explanations in the wiki 
should be adapted to other realities (see Highways for Africa), I accept 
the consequences of the fact "OSM is a British foundation".  too bad?  I 
don't know.  and it doesn't matter, it's just as it is.  if I didn't 
accept that, I would go mapping somewhere else.


ave atque vale

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] missing maps? no: missing GPS traces.

[Mario Frasca]

On 17/02/2020 12:21, Mario Frasca wrote:
[…] I'm not just complaining for the sake of it, I'm looking for 
opportunities.


you see, we are in 2020, and people still do not know OSM even 
exists.  just count them: we have 1.35 billion people walking with a 
handheld device, most of which with a GPS, and only 10 thousand 
installations of OSM Tracker for Android.  […]


I was pointed to a web site for sharing GPS traces, mostly for trekking 
and hiking, on foot or by bike, it's called wikiloc (.com).  it uses OSM 
as base map (or Apple map), gives all possible and desirable 
attribution, and has many more traces to offer to globe-trotters than we 
have on OSM.


so there's this curious situation: via wikiloc.com you look for 
suggested walks, and you don't see the path in the map, since we mapping 
for OSM do not see the wikiloc traces, so we can't use them to 
vectorialize the available aerial pictures.  my current practice is to 
browse their traces, using their site as a set of hints for where to 
map, we have Bing after all!


but is there anybody here reading, from the OSMF, who could write to 
them, and suggest some correction to the current situation? like: you 
upload a trace to wikiloc, and apart from all current agreements between 
hiker providing the trace and wikiloc, there would be an extra clause: 
your points are exported to osm, maybe under a generic wikiloc user, and 
marked private, or the wikiloc user coupling their accounts, and 
deciding in their preferences which visibility for their traces.


to have a concrete example, take the Yeguada, north of Calobre, in 
Veraguas, Panamá.  OSM has not a single GPS point recorded there, while 
wikiloc has several traces, along roads that aren't in OSM.


https://www.wikiloc.com/mountain-biking-trails/calobre-la-yeguada-29495788

use the above link to reach the area.  the whole area is in this 
situation: unmapped, no GPS points available to mappers, quite a few 
well documented GPS traces in wikiloc.


just wondering, is there anything we can do?

MF


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[OSM-talk] Check use of OpenStreetMap logo/name/fame

[Mario Frasca]

On 17/02/2020 17:10, Simon Poole wrote:

it would be really nice if the community was
equally upset about misusing the OpenStreetMap brand and marks by so
many other organisations with the goal of  profiting from OSMs popularity


oh, this reminds me of something!

the community is aware of the misuse of the name "OSM" for promoting 
mapping activities which have very little to do with OSM?  I'm referring 
to, for example, courses where you learn mapping with QGIS, or whatever, 
using all sources available, and which culminate with a final step of 
exporting the produce into OSM.  and we volunteering our time for OSM 
realizing about these activities when they are closed and finished and 
abandoned, and we may clean up their mess.


in one case where I managed to get in touch **before** the start of the 
activity, I advised following OSM norms and respecting OSM values, and I 
hinted to make a start by informing the OSM database about the locations 
of their institution, as shown on a Google-based map.  I got this 
literal answer:


»Primeramente en ese mapa no se uso información de OSM. Pero ya veo que 
en este grupo usted Mario es un burócrata.«


(obviously, the guy did not understand I was not alerting them against 
using OSM data, I was hinting at putting their data into OSM, and 
against importing data from Google into OSM.)


That was in David, Chiriquí, Panamá.  The group had performed various 
exports to OSM, some have been rolled back (they explicitly mentioned 
Google as a source of data), and they shut all communication with me and 
the Panama OSM Telegram group. "Our" people in David could not care 
less, and I personally have not been able to contact them any more, and 
I'm not sure what they now do to promote their courses to the local 
university (couple of hundreds km from where I reside currently).  the 
OSM logo was part of their strategy.  (oh, and something similar happens 
occasionally from the University of Panama, Panama City.)


The events flow I observed:

- individuals interested in GIS form a group

- they can give an introductory GIS course

- they want to sell their time to a local university

- they use the name OSM to sell it better

- the local university professors know nothing about OSM, or don't care

- everything is agreed upon, prepared and executed, outside OSM

- they complete the activity on OSM: opening accounts, uploading data, 
celebrating, all the same day,


- they disappear until the next year, where new people will use new 
accounts.


what could go better according to me:

- we were more active promoting OSM, its existence, its strong values 
and the few resulting norms.  I'm not so sure how.  opening some 
preferential communication channel?  who can do that?


in the cases I observed, I should have contacted the institutions 
involved (as I tried to do), and should have reached the responsible 
departments (which I did not manage), with some sort of authority (which 
I do not have).


or I don't know.

can we black-list IP addresses from which such unchecked activities came in?

but yes, this is much more of an issue to me, than a antifa logo.

bests to all, and happy mapping,

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] For the sake of peace | Re: Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo

[Mario Frasca]

Hi Rory and Daniel,

I don't understand… someone (A) made something (B) that others (GGG) 
think it's inappropriate, and the authority involved is the OSMF, right?


now why do G, G, and G need to convince A that B was wrong after all, 
and that A needs to remove B?


wasn't it the OSMF, the authority involved and potentially offended?

I'm not offended at all, and I hope this mashup stays where it is.  but 
then again, let the board decide, and to be sure, I already saved it 
somewhere in my laptop.


(and about the point, I don't find it back, that developing countries 
may be scared of the association OSM-anti_fascist, I'm not able to take 
this seriously.  in my opinion and experience, developing countries are 
managed by people who are money driven, so you don't offer money, you're 
not interesting, and let's see how I can justify that.  it's a nice 
association, according to me.)


ciao,

Mario

On 17/02/2020 13:49, dcapillae wrote:

Hi, Rory.

The logo will continue on the wiki until the page is deleted. The procedure
for deleting wiki pages is describe on the wiki. [1]

You don't have to accept the deletion if you don't agree. As I said in my
first message, the rights holder is the OSM Foundation, and only they
decide. It has been suggested that you consult with OSMF members. [2] It
could be a good way to resolve the controversy.

Greetings from Spain.

Happy mapping.

Regards,
Daniel

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Delete
[2]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File_talk:2019_OSM_Anarchist_Antifa_logo.svg



--
Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html

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[OSM-talk] missing maps? no: missing GPS traces.

[Mario Frasca]

Hi everyone.

mapping Santa Fé, Veraguas, Panamá.  allegedly, a "strategic tourist 
attraction" for this country, but what's the strategy, I'm at odds 
understanding that.  anyhow.  I'm trying to convince the municipality to 
help me helping them, and my plan is to: (step 1) collect traces, (step 
2) process them together with local input and bing aerial pictures and 
integrate the information into OSM, (optional step 3) produce a nice 
large format map that makes the effort visible to people not using osm.org.


the "collect traces" step is where I'm most perplexed.  I've been 
walking around, travelling by local transport, uploaded the traces to 
OSM and my perplexity is how come aren't there any but really truly any 
other traces than what I've uploaded the last few weeks, and one by some 
German guy in 2009.


no, wait, I'm not just complaining for the sake of it, I'm looking for 
opportunities.


you see, we are in 2020, and people still do not know OSM even exists.  
just count them: we have 1.35 billion people walking with a handheld 
device, most of which with a GPS, and only 10 thousand installations of 
OSM Tracker for Android.  that's a really negligible percentage, 
homeopathic almost.


I opened an issue on the osmtracker-android github project, and I invite 
you to contribute ideas there.


https://github.com/labexp/osmtracker-android/issues/234

my ideal scenery would be: one arrives at an airport, or a bus terminal, 
and notices a poster advertising a 'minimal controls' osm tracker, with 
a QR code to download it.  installation is followed by opening it, and 
the program suggests creating an OSM account, and some default options 
for uploading traces.  then the process would be automatic: you start 
recording, you stop recording and at that moment the program asks "do 
you want to upload this to OSM?"  (now this option is hidden behind a 
long-press, and is followed by the not-yet-solved need to register on 
OSM.  let me tell you: casual users stop here.)


Mario


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Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo

[Mario Frasca]

On 15/02/2020 15:27, Richard wrote:

getting better and better: we have now a discussion on the labeling
of Antifa, definition of facism, authority of Wikipedia, what next? 

* less politics is better for OSM
* I would not be happy if anyone could mashup his logo with that of OSM

Richard


what's politics.  In my opinion, participating to OSM is a political 
statement.  and still in my opinion, doing politics by participating to 
OSM does not translate to any political affiliation.  but I am aware 
that most people say "politics" to say "affiliation to a political 
party" or even "stealing by clientelism".


anyhow.

since this mashup does not suggest my own endorsement, I don't see the 
problem.


now I guess it's up to the OSMF to decide what they think.

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

Per piacere, non farlo. Non è questa la conclusione della discussione 
che si è tenuta qui. Sono stati espressi pareri, e la discussione si è 
esaurita, credo perché troppo distanti le posizioni dei partecipanti.


Non, je t'en prie, ne fais pas ça. Ça n'est pas du tout la conclusion de 
la discussion ténu ici. On a présenté ses positions, sans atteindre rien 
plus que la présentation de points de vue très différents.


Sent from a Google-owned 华为 Mobile

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Re: [OSM-talk] copying numbering (ref)

[Mario Frasca]

On 14/02/2020 16:25, stevea wrote:

Or, using unsigned_ref=* is an option.
SteveA


I like this one, thank you.

I just suggested the practice to the people reading the OSM Panama 
Telegram group.


MF


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[OSM-talk] copying numbering (ref)

[Mario Frasca]

Hi everybody

in Panama I've been looking for official sources of information about 
road numbering, and could only find out that the 'Panamericana' is road 
#1.  (road signs all over the place tell you this).  for the rest, I've 
interviewed an employee of the MOP (Ministerio Obras Públicas), who 
alleged that they don't really use numbers for roads except internally, 
and that in this case the road number starts with a leading digit 
identifying the province, luckily it's 9 provinces in Panama.


now a couple of concrete examples of data in our database.

road #33, in Veraguas.  that's province #9.

roads #12, 18, 47, 48, 110, all in Chiriquí, that's province #4 ('Ch' 
goes as one letter, so it follow Coclé and Colón).  (the ones with the 
leading 4 agree with my MOP source).


so far so good.  the curious part is that all these numbers are also in 
Google Maps, included the suspicious ones.


I've placed questions in the corresponding changesets, and I have 
received replies, but quite non factual. 
(http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=248722)


road #28 (according to Google) is road #91 according to us.  it's 
Veraguas, so the leading 9 might be correct.  here it's curious that it 
was created as #28 also in OSM 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35351526) then changed to 91 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/63256732).


what would you do?

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] Crimea situation - on the ground

[Mario Frasca]

I see a linguistic problem … and people.

On 07/02/2020 05:27, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

OSM is not mapping world as it should be,
it is mapping it as it exists.


Russia has successfully invaded Crimea and considers it part of Russia.

but there still are Ukrainians living there, I suppose.  people who 
speak a marginally different language with a couple of differences in 
the alphabet.  (according to them, a completely different language.)


so one thing is the border, one other thing is toponyms.

a much more serious example of this is the Golan Heights.  try to find a 
name in the area which shows there's Syrians living there!


which way does OSM manage to show impartiality?  or make a serious 
attempt at it?


MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated

[Mario Frasca]

oops, Aaron, I'm afraid I was not clear in at least one of my 
statements.  so sorry.


On 06/02/2020 15:42, Aaron Young wrote:

but also checks with the local community, if there is any,
what special agreements rule in the local community.  for Panamá, I
would like to have such activities listed in a dedicated page in the
*wiki*.


This is doable and we try, without making an excuse, it is hard to 
determine who to coordinate with in “each” community.  This may be 
because mappers are active, not active, want to be communicative and 
others don’t.  I would also be hesitant to agree to “special 
agreements” which might take away from the idea of open, free data for 
all to utilize.  Utilizing the main OSM wiki for editing standards is 
preferred, with limited country specific editing guidelines.  This 
creates a more global map for all.


when I speak of special agreements, I refer to the contents, not to the 
licenses.  like what do we do in a case like … (here comes the 
description of the case).  osm is IMO very north-centric: not only does 
it speak British English all over the place, in the terms to use, but 
also in the concepts it implements.  take "village green".  I've been 
using in Panama because there's a lot of places with open space not 
belonging to anybody in particular. but go to the description in the 
wiki, and you get the impression that OSM is made for-and-by the blind 
British retired high rank military.


anyhow.

"special agreements" on how to use tags and values, that's what I 
meant.  possibly with pictures.  think of Highway Tag Africa.


also, again thinking of Panama, most places get at least 4000mm rain 
yearly, some ~6000mm, Pacific weather pattern is different from 
Caribbean, the so called Cordillera Central is a transition zone with 
the worst of the two sides, and then there's Herrera-Los Santos with 
possibly 1500mm/year.  any road with 'surface:ground' absolutely needs 
an indication of the period when it can be expected to be usable.  
'ford:yes' also need that.  'incline' can be of great help.


that's just what me as a newcomer to the place can think of.  I'm not 
sure where to find this information other than coming here and observing 
yourself.



[…] Example from South Africa (we started this after Panama): 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/South_Africa#Kaart_Groundwork_.26_Mapping


interesting, not enough people here in Panama for so much work, but 
interesting.  chapeau!


ciao,

M


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Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated"

[Mario Frasca]

Hi Aaron,

thank you for your writing!

On 05/02/2020 23:50, Aaron Young wrote:

in this instance we slipped up and didn’t communicate well enough.  We are 
working to improve that now both in Panama and elsewhere


I had a pleasant chat yesterday with Jorge Aguirre, and he insisted in 
explaining that in 2015 Kaart as an organization was very early in its 
learning process.  I suggested adopting/adapting the *Directed Editing 
Guidelines*, and my personal point of view, which I'm sharing now here, 
is that whoever organizes edits should not only follow the global 
guidelines (I like to think of them as "Brexit on World Trade 
Agreements"), but also checks with the local community, if there is any, 
what special agreements rule in the local community.  for Panamá, I 
would like to have such activities listed in a dedicated page in the 
*wiki*.  if you could describe them in Spanish, it would be much better, 
but if you're putting an English language page in the wiki, I'm sure 
there are enough non-Kaart people who would help translate that.


in fact, editing the local activities page in the wiki would be 
sufficient to *alert the local community*, or at least anyone watching 
that page.


On 05/02/2020 23:50, Aaron Young wrote:

maintain the data to make sure it is as good as it can be, which is what 
initiated this conversation


good news Kaart collecting experience and building on it.  may I suggest 
you also help local communities make their rules more explicit.  to make 
a concrete example, again for Panamá, did not agree on (did not discuss) 
*how to categorize highways*, nor do we know where to collect 'ref' values.


we also hardly have any factual information about rural bus routes.  why 
is this relevant?  a road on which you have a regular service, however 
crummy, can hardly qualify as "unclassified", but would be promoted to 
"tertiary" at the least.  could serve as reference.  also, knowing what 
kind of car runs the service would help with the "smoothness" tag.  
collecting this information needs to happen locally, and I don't manage 
to picture the difficulties and the costs associated to doing this.


[[as a complete *side thread*, a concrete example: I recently tracked a 
"chiva" only doing a short round trip from Santa Fé, travelling through 
El Pantano, which cost me $4.  I uploaded the trace as private, that was 
a mistake. https://www.openstreetmap.org/trace/3198854/data, one of the 
GPS lost power on the way back, I should upload the data from the other 
device.  with some extra cheap GPS devices (I own 5, not all equally 
good), and some official-looking piece of paper from an organization, 
one could spend half a day distributing phones running OSMTracker to bus 
drivers and collecting them when they're back.  and moving to the next 
"piquera" for a different round. rural routes here may come back after 
more than 5 hours, and I know of routes where a one-way ticket costs $8.  ]]


I am considering how to describe the above, but did not yet create the 
relevant wiki page/paragraph.  since Kaart is helping reclassify roads 
(in Panamá), it would be nice if we had some agreements on how to do 
that.  and given we did not have it yet, in Panamá, it would be nice if 
you publicly offered your thoughts for discussion, so we can reach an 
agreement we can describe and follow.


for *old edits*, I would consider very helpful if someone within Kaart 
would receive notifications on changesets produced under the Kaart 
flag.  see BlueSombra, and all other Kaart abandoned accounts, with all 
the comments still waiting for a reply.


a point which I'm afraid has been missed: the reply I received by Vigo 
gave me the impression "past is past, and we don't look back (but you 
may tide up our mess)".  I understand that you're not focusing on 
mapping businesses any more, and I realize it's too much work for 
anybody, to look up the mess and clean it up, but there must be other 
ways to *profile yourself as responsible for the data you added*, even 
if it was while you were early in your learning process.


ciao,

Mario

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Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated"

[Mario Frasca]

On 05/02/2020 12:15, Dave F via talk wrote:
Who & how did you contact them? If a Public forum, could you post a 
link? if email, could you copy paste exactly the replies to you? 


not a public forum, I wrote to VigotheCarpatian as an openstreetmap 
message, here's some of it:


myself, on 2019-12-06 19:31


Hi Vigo, thank you for replying, this is one changeset where I commented

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35874422

that’s just an example, but not at all an isolated case. what I’ve 
been seeing here in Panama (the country) is that Kaart people in 2015 
have been mapping individual commercial enterprises as separate buildings.


two examples, in Chorrera and in Panama.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/385343944 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/382714337


the whole Avenida B in Panamá has buildings which have been split like 
this. I have personally checked that in cases, a single building was 
split in three slices. I did not fix it.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/384068371/history



also, please, don’t leave junk behind, like |source_1|, |shop=yes|, or 
even putting a building in Panamá, and writing |addr:city=Santa Ana|.




one more mistake is relative to mapping landuse:retail as 
landuse:commercial, possibly because of the false friend Spanish 
“centro comercial”. (example: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/385055420/history)


there’s very few editors in Panamá, megabytes are expensive, we can’t 
afford neither the workload nor the bandwidth to fix this, so I’m 
trying to have things fixed upstream, that is, from Kaart.



you already have Vigo's answer, on 2019-12-06 23:04:

Hi Mario, thank you for all the information and feedback on the work 
done in Panama. I have informed the team and we will use the 
information you gave us to improve future edits made by Kaart. Thanks 
again for reaching out to us.



to which I answered, 2019-12-07 14:23

I’m happy you will use the information I gave you, but it is relevant 
that you’re speaking in plural form, that’s for the Kaart 
organization. Since you’re speaking for a group, where the group edits 
in an organized way in an area where there is a community of mappers, 
that puts your group (Kaart) in the position where you should consider 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing_Guidelines.


Please do that for the future, I insist.  And if you have any current 
activity regarding Panamá, it’s not too late to inform the local 
community via the wiki.


As for the “… to improve future edits”, well, that’s nice, but what 
about what your editors left behind?  I’m glad you reverted to 
unclassified that unclassified you had tagged as track, but there’s 
more drops in the sea.  What about organizing a review of your past 
edits, involving the local community?



and I got the reaction, 2019-12-09 17:10

Hello Mario, here is the wiki page of projects and places that Kaart 
are working in. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kaart



which did not and still does not mention Panama at all.


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Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated"

[Mario Frasca]

On 05/02/2020 11:53, Andy Townsend wrote:
it can sometimes be difficult to decide where one building ends and 
the next starts


sometimes, sometimes it's clear.  sometimes you walk in the area, you 
see the façade and you wonder how they can know the name of the shop and 
not have seen it's three shops in the same building, nor take note of 
what kind of shop it is.


the whole Avenida B in Panamá has buildings which have been split like 
this. I have personally checked that in cases, a single building was 
split in three slices. I did not fix it.


since then I fixed a few, but I do not plan continuing to do so. I don't 
come too often to Panama City.  I signaled it two months ago to Kaart 
(via Vigo) and I hope they will indeed "improve future edits made by 
Kaart", in the meanwhile, not having seen any activity from them, and 
since they're now editing an other aspect, again without consulting with 
the local community, I moved to adding a 'fixme' tag to their most 
obvious mistakes.



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Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated"

[Mario Frasca]

good day Andy

On 05/02/2020 11:53, Andy Townsend wrote:
I also don't think that's a typical reaction from paid mappers 
generally (apart from spammers of course),


can you help me understanding the following statement otherwise than 
"too late"?


Hi Mario, thank you for all the information and feedback on the work 
done in Panama. I have informed the team and we will use the 
information you gave us to improve future edits made by Kaart. Thanks 
again for reaching out to us.



(by VigotheCarpatian)

("all the information and feedback" was a list of issues, all still on 
the to-do list).


now Kaart is busy fixing road classification, and the editors are 
reacting to comments (they are still busy on the task), but there's been 
no contact with the local community prior to starting their coordinated 
edits, nor do I know where to find the description of this task.


just an example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/80548506



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Re: [OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated"

[Mario Frasca]

this is what I'm talking about:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Qqh

one more things that make this situation even more complicated, is that 
many of these ways have shop:yes, which sounds like "I'm too lazy to 
investigate the details, please someone does it for me", which I did in 
one shopping area, putting shop names in a web search, and fix the type 
of the shop, before realizing the dimension of the problem.


https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/748685987

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35874422

(one of the many instances of expressing doubts and not getting a 
reply)  (people participating to organized edits, who later disappear 
from OSM, and leaving you with the doubt whom to contact.)



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[OSM-talk] it's not a fake, but "it's complicated"

[Mario Frasca]

hi all,

I sort of moved to Panama.  I am trying to find local mappers wanting to 
discuss issues, help take decisions, document decisions, and validate 
data.  it's been a hard task, and it's not the only hard task here in 
Panama: time and again I find tons of mistakes added by people who, 
mostly in good faith, won't take responsibility for their edits.  when 
it's isolated editors, I comment on their edits, or ask for a temporary 
block if they keep adding dubious data without reacting to comments.


when it's an organization, it can be easier, or very much more complicated.

one common practice, the one I wish to discuss here, is something done 
by Kaart editors: splitting a building into as many slices as the amount 
of commercial activities within the building.  I am in no position to 
take care of the amount of instances of this practice, and fix them, nor 
do I lead a group of editors who can fix such an amount of issues, and 
definitely not while these issues keep streaming into the database, and 
the stream has very variable intensity.  I've signalled it to their 
editors, or to their leaders, but apparently when an activity is closed, 
it's too late to ask them to review.  I've asked them to alert the 
community *before* they start each such activities, but I did not manage 
to get a commitment.  apparently also Kaart (as HOT) does not take any 
notice of the Organized Edits directive.


I've now moved to tagging as many of them them as 'fixme'.  maybe public 
shame will do the job.


hints?

tank you and best regards,

Mario Frasca (mariotomo)


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Re: [OSM-talk] mapping outside Europe

[Mario Frasca]

Hi Maarten, Mateusz, Marc, Pierre, everybody:

On 08/01/2020 01:32, Maarten Deen wrote:
If they don't use the wiki, then who complains about missing local 
information in the wiki? 


these are chained questions: who complains? who complains about missing 
local information (in the wiki)?


I'm not sure it is of any relevance, so I don't expect followup on this, 
but it will help you understand my experience:


---

speaking about Panama: apart from me trying to correct bad practices, 
establishing a Telegram group, inviting people to it, trying to engage 
editors in discussions, contacting organizations sponsoring massive 
edits, commenting on changesets, writing personal messages to the 
author's OSM account, looking them up on Facebook, documenting or 
proposing in the Wiki, requesting a block for people who keep adding 
information that always needs the same kind of correction…, there has 
been so little response that I can't generalize, I can briefly mention 
the few major incidents:


- on the Telegram group (https://t.me/Comunidad_OSM_Panama) we had a 
representative of a GIS-group in the second largest town in the country, 
periodically doing massive exports to the database, sponsored by Unachi 
(Universidad de Chiriquí), organizing GIS courses ending with these 
collectively signed exports, using accounts that are only active in 
these occasions.  He announced one activity they would organize.  two of 
us (both Europeans) tried to make two points clear: no data from Google, 
and please consider the organized edits directives.  the guy left the 
group because of our bureaucratic/dictatorial attitude.  I don't know 
how their activity developed, it did not (yet) reflect on the OSM database.


- I recently removed some fifty thousand relations "no-u-turn", added by 
people working for MiBus (Panama City), needed for their navigation 
software, but not corresponding to anything on the ground.  I had tried 
to reach for the authors, but only after removing the objects they 
reacted.  the reaction was in private email exchange, not on my 
changesets, until I invited one of the guys to do so 
(https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/77387510). according to me, there 
never was any discussion.  one of the guys joined the Panama Telegram 
group, but never reacted to the invitations to discuss the issue.


- occasionally, people write funny changesets comments, like here: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77592575; 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/68335335


- some time ago the Telegram group received an invitation to an ESRI 
meeting.  I participated, and volunteered my summary of the meeting, and 
the story ended there, I have no idea what happened next.  I met 
personally three of the editors, but that did not establish a 
communication line with any of them.


my very personal impression: I think there is a cultural difficulty 
here, preventing people from expressing one's opinions in public, 
offering it for criticism.  I do not know how they do, to reach a 
consensus, and again my personal impression is that they don't even try, 
each does their stuff, try not to stand in the way of others, expect 
others to do the same.  my (again very personal) conclusion is to drop 
trying myself (I even left the Telegram group I had founded, for I 
thinks it serves no purpose) and to keep documenting things publicly, 
either in Spanish or in English, in the wiki, but again without 
expecting feedback from local mappers.


---

more constructively:
On 08/01/2020 02:54, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
Is a new photo differing in content (confusing for Europeans in the 
similar way as original
was confusing for people from Panama)? Then both should be present, 
one in the infobox,

one in the article text.


I like this one.  :-)

we could invite people from different areas to contribute relevant pictures.

I can do Panama, and look up in my archives for other regions I 
visited.  I can't obviously cover the rest of the world, but we as OSM 
editors surely can.


On 08/01/2020 04:29, Marc Gemis wrote:


What I meant with "write the wiki page you want to see" is: create a
new wiki page "Highways in Panama" or "Highways in South America",
preferable in Spanish and Portuguese and link to that page from one of
the existing pages.


Panama is such a small country!  and South America is much larger than 
my personal experience.  The only correct title for a page I can author 
would be "Highways in developing countries I know", but most of it would 
be similar or equal to the Highway_Tag_Africa.


point is: would locals like being told "use the African guidelines"?

please nobody from Africa takes offense, please, but telling Southern 
Americans that they should apply African logic for their situation is 
very likely to sound as an offense to them, however correct the case 
might be (and actually, things here can be quite worse than the pictures 
in the 

Re: [OSM-talk] mapping outside Europe

[Mario Frasca]

On 07/01/2020 15:46, Pierre Béland wrote:
I am the original author of the Highway Africa Tag wiki page.  This 
page is now widely used outside of Africa (Asia and Latin-America) in 
areas where it better correspond to the reality of the roads 
infrastructure.


I see, and I like it.  good job!

but it still only mentions 'Africa'.  How would you describe the 
application range, other than "outside high wages / developed countries"?


my guess for the first sentence would be "Most regions in the world do 
not show the same road network quality as, say, Germany or Canada.  Road 
conditions in such regions do not match the economic and social role of 
the road." then go on with the rest.


which Latin American countries are using this page as a reference? as 
far as you and others here know?
And pictures have been used to better correspond to the ligther road 
structures in these areas, which are often unpaved. 


nice pictures indeed.  curious enough, they aren't (yet) linked in the 
Spanish version of the page.  I might find time to do so.


ciao,

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] mapping outside Europe

[Mario Frasca]

On 07/01/2020 14:53, Mario Frasca wrote:
so you say: just revolutionize the overview for the highway tag, 
without first reaching a consensus?  or I understood you wrong? or 
replace the Eurocentric pictures with Panama and Morocco pics? an edit 
like this will be reverted after 15 minutes! 


ah, no, I see, you suggest to take inspiration from the 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa, or the German 
(very complete) overview How-to-map-a.  both pages which I did not know.


quite a bit of work, but who knows we manage to motivate the Latam group 
for this.


will put it on my personal to-do list, but if others from Latam are 
reading here, they can add their comments and ideas.


MF




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Re: [OSM-talk] mapping outside Europe

[Mario Frasca]

On 07/01/2020 14:38, Marc Gemis wrote:

Since OSM is a do-ocracy, do not complain, but write the wiki page you
want to see


that's fine, and I've been doing that for Panama, and for Morocco, but I 
do not like mapping without having reached a consensus.


for that, we need other mappers to contribute to the discussion, and I 
never managed to get any far on this in the wiki (actually, not even in 
the changeset comments).  in particular Panama, none of the local 
mappers seem to use the wiki, just check the authorship statistics.  I'm 
not complaining, I'm stating an observed fact.  there's cultures where 
reading is more common than in others.  I'm generalizing, which will 
always have counterexamples, but if you ask children here (Latin 
America) about a fairy tale, if they know it, they will tell you if they 
have **seen** it, not read it.


so you say: just revolutionize the overview for the highway tag, without 
first reaching a consensus?  or I understood you wrong? or replace the 
Eurocentric pictures with Panama and Morocco pics? an edit like this 
will be reverted after 15 minutes!


MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[Mario Frasca]

On 07/01/2020 06:53, Martin Constantino–Bodin wrote:
Maybe we can sometimes factorise? Like “América del Sur / do Sul” for 
South America


fortunate case: it's América in both languages (Catalan has Amèrica).

you can possibly even use América Meridional and cover both in one shot.


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[OSM-talk] mapping outside Europe

[Mario Frasca]

On 07/01/2020 05:38, Martin Constantino–Bodin wrote:
I really don’t think that we want to unconsciously impose such culture 
in our community.


Hi Martin, and thank you for considering the issue constructively.

apart from the issue "international objects receive a tag 'name' with an 
English value", there are other ways in which you see how we're letting 
USA-UK patronize the rest.


the latest example in my experience would be the 'sac_scale' tagging.  
it comes from the SAC-CAS classification, of the Schweizer 
Alpen-Club/Club Alpino Svizzero/Club Alpin Suisse/Club Alpin Svizzer, 
yet OSM held the discussion in English, and it not only chose 
`sac_scale` for the tag name, it also decided not to use the Swiss codes 
T1..T6 (language independent), but the English version of the human 
readable explanation for the codes: T1 
(hiking/escursione/randonnée/Wandern) .. T6 (difficult alpine 
hiking/escursione alpina difficile/randonnée alpine 
difficile/schwieriges Alpinwandern).


a more important issue (I would call it "mapping outside Europe", hence 
the subject) is for me each and every (photo)graphic explanation of the 
tagging values.  take `highway` 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway).  text are fine, 
really, but the associated pictures seem all taken in Europe, or North 
America, they have more chances to confuse the mapper based in Africa or 
South America, than helping them.


in Panama many roads are classified as 'camino de verano', they look 
like highway:track, but are really highway:unclassified with an extra 
indication for the months where they are expected to be passable.  maybe 
can be solved in the wiki by changing the link to the picture into a 
link to several pictures, but I'm afraid that we need to address this in 
the standard renderer as well: users also expect some of the information 
to be reflected in the rendering, explaining why so many mappers still 
use highway:track despite one repeating "don't map for the renderer".


in Morocco (and I guess elsewhere too) we have small towns with 
undeveloped areas, crossed by paths with residential function, or large 
cities with extremely narrow alleys, again with residential function.  
these have been solved by different mappers in different ways, leading 
to very inconsistent mapping, in particular where there isn't a local, 
assertive, mappers' community.  (Morocco and Panama are two such cases, 
Colombia is much better in this aspect.)


best to all,

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 06/01/2020 09:45, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

but it's quite difficult to decide which
tag to use in each region


what about … as long as we're discussing relations … a relation could 
have a node with role `label:xx` where the xx is a language code.  it 
would specify where to put the corresponding name.  so for the Baltic 
Sea, you would have several nodes indicating where to put the several 
names in the several languages, each next to the corresponding shore.


I like the idea, if I understand Marc Gemis correctly, of having 
(mostly) nameless maps, with transparencies for each language. but yes 
someone has to program this.


one reason for mentioning Morocco: it shows how three names is perceived 
as too many.  the impact on South America could be to name it in Spanish 
and Portuguese (two languages), and by this we would cover more than 99% 
of the people living there.  North America would need Spanish, English 
and French, so maybe that would be one language too many.


(interesting page, that about "Imperialisme linguistique".  the Dutch 
version of it, very short, mentions Morocco for the other reason I 
mentioned it myself: the country has experienced French and Arabic 
cultural imperialism, and is now trying to implement some respect for 
the majority of their (Amazigh) people.  taken to this context, this 
would be the OSM-people who do not read nor write to this list.  mind 
you, the list is called 'talk', not 'talk:en'.)


Interlingua/Lingua Franca would be a nice compromise, at least for South 
America and the seas next to Spain, France, and Italy, where more than 
three languages are recognized and even more spoken, but all are 
neo-latin.  I don't know whether anything like this could apply to the 
Baltic, or to other seas.


anyhow, leaving implementations aside, I think that a bit more 
language-culture agnosticism would not harm OSM.


MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

Hi Tomek, and everybody.

being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted to use 
Spanish, or Italian.  my written Latin is poor.


I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I understand Polish 
better than Esperanto.


Should I "vote" on your proposal?  I consider this the wrong place for 
holding even the discussion.  according to me, using the English 
language for naming "South America" in the standard map is bad enough, 
but I do not think (many) people from South America will tell you that 
**here**, because people who agree with you will not be reading you 
here.  If I know the locals good enough, they would want the map to be 
in Spanish just as they seem to have the impression that the whole world 
(around them) speaks Spanish. (I do not know many people from Cayenne, 
Brazil, nor Suriname.)


I disagree that the tag 'name' should be removed, and about the 
wikipedia tag, and the fact that it generally points to the english 
wikipedia version, too bad.  you will not solve this by removing the 
tag, you may try to educate Latin speaking people to be more assertive, 
but I think it's a lost cause.


I'm aware of one place in the world where they have three national 
languages: Morocco, and what happens there is that the map uses the 
three national languages for all names, and the map looks so clumsy this 
way, in particular with the Amazigh name included (I have tested some 
locals on their knowledge of the written language, and I am fairly sure 
that 95% of Amazigh people can't even read it).  quite regularly, you 
see people editing the 'name' tag to make it less clumsy, by removing 
two of the languages (those they don't like, I guess).


so, dear Tomek, I do not know what's the best option, but removing the 
'name' and the 'wikipedia' tag doesn't feel like the best one to me.  
proposing it here, even less.  my guess is that having a language option 
on the rendered map would be better than this that you propose.  for 
some locations, I indeed prefer the openstreetmap.fr map.


as for the replies you are getting, I've noticed a dichotomy in the 
community: people focusing on the actual point, and people focusing on 
the form.  seems "cultural", and seems that European toes are less 
easily stepped upon.  "you may try to educate English speaking people to 
be less assertive" ;=)


anyhow, cheers, and happy mapping,

MF

(nie piszem w twojm języku … want ik ken het niet, not enough at least.)

On 05/01/2020 20:39, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze:

It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't.

EO
Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze.

Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto) kaj 
iam en via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne parolas en 
mia lingvo?


Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj.



PL
Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się.
Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym (Esperanto) i 
czasami w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie piszesz w moim języku?


Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw.



EN
I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm not fooling around.
I write in my (Polish) language in the international language 
(Esperanto) and sometimes in your (English), why don't you write in my 
language?


Please focus on resolving the name problem.

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[OSM-talk] is OSM a fake map.

[Mario Frasca]

Hi.  I'm trying to understand what are you talking about, and I have two
options:

1- that there are mistakes in the map.  that's a good thing, that you
are able to spot them, because you can correct them.  I suggest you do
so, and share the good news when you have something to celebrate!

2- you hope that someone helps you correcting them.  in that case it
would be helpful if you would share a link to the area you can't correct
yourself.

I can assure you, in my experience, the big G map is much, much, much
faker than OSM, at least in marginal areas.  like Jardín, Antioquia in
2015, or Las Minas, Los Santos right now.  it shows roads that do not exist.

but yes, also OSM has trolls mapping non existent stuff, very true. 
stay alert and remove mistakes, or ask the community for help, providing
the relevant links to the suspicious edits.

ciao, happy mapping, Mario

On 01/01/2020 10:00, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote:
> i am seeing different images on different maps, bing is very old in my
> area,
>  
> trails that were once there are over grown and impassable.
>  
> roads do not change,
>  
> but shopping malls are torn down, and rivers are diverted,
>  
> landfills that look flat with stuff on top are miss labeled
>  
> over flow ponds look like flat grass land
>  
> retention dry ponds, look like holes in the ground with water on the
> satellite pass,
>  
> all this by the tracer not a person on the ground.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Attribution guideline status update

[Mario Frasca]

one voice from the silent mass: I prefer github for such issues.


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[OSM-talk] Golan Heights

[Mario Frasca]

good day list!

https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cartes/golan

our map now only shows the area as if it were part of the State of
Israel, which is not, according to international law.

who is in charge for such quality checks?


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Re: [OSM-co] Mapeo de árboles en Cartagena

[Mario Frasca]

Hola Humberto y que bien que se llegue a tanto!

en las finalidades tienes:

- identificar especies

- construir inventario

- levantar datos geográficos

quieres ayuda para elaborar o revisar las modalidades de trabajo?

cordial saludo y felices fiestas navideñas.

ciaociao, Mario


On 2016-12-27 13:32, hyan...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hola comunidad,
>
> si alguno de ustedes va a estar en Cartagena de Indias para los
> primeros días de enero, les tengo super plan de mapeo!
>
> http://blog.openstreetmap.co/2016/12/27/mapeo-arboles-cartagena/
>
> Super que nos acompañen!
>
> Felices fiestas!
>
> Humberto Yances
>
>
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Re: [OSM-co] SSL para tiles de OpenStreetMap

[Mario Frasca]

el error no es en el wildcard, sino en el sinónimo osm-openstreetmap.

intenta https://a.tile.openstreetmap.org/5/9/15.png

gracias a ustedes con umap.*.co !!


On 2016-12-08 07:55, Igor TAmara wrote:
> Hola, queremos usar SSL en umap.openstreetmap.co
>  , para poder lograrlo, lo primero es
> que los tiles que consumimos podamos tenerlos con ssl.
>
> Cuál sería el canal adecuado para reportar un problema con el
> certificado actual?  Por ejemplo al
> visitar https://a.tile.osm.org/5/9/15.png obtengo error de
> certificado, al parecer con algo del wildcard ssl.
>
> Gracias!!!
>
>
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Re: [OSM-co] Problema al actualizar JOSM

[Mario Frasca]

seguramente como la sal cuando ya están acabando el flan...

mario@rune:~$ which java
/usr/bin/java
mario@rune:~$ ls -lG /usr/bin/java
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 22 Aug  4 12:46 /usr/bin/java -> /etc/alternatives/java
mario@rune:~$ ls -lG /etc/alternatives/java
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 46 Aug  7 10:20 /etc/alternatives/java ->
/usr/lib/jvm/java-8-openjdk-amd64/jre/bin/java


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Re: [OSM-co] Mapeo de árboles

[Mario Frasca]

entonces (dado que tienes árboles --puntos de referencia-- ya bien
localizados) diría yo que te conviene triangular.

On 13/07/16 21:35, Artesano wrote:
> Los árboles que ya están mapeados en esa zona han sido georeferenciados
> así, con el WP.
> 
> El 13/7/2016 3:32 p. m., "Fredy Rivera"  > escribió:
> 
> 2016-07-13 12:41 GMT-05:00 Artesano  >:
> > Hice el ejercicio de dar la vuelta al arbol y no me genera un circulo,
> > pienso que es debido a que lo hice con el OsmTracker
> > desde el celular.
> Para que te marque efectivamente la "vuelta" necesitarías un gps
> submetrico, lo mejor es que marques el punto WP lo mas cercano al
> árbol que puedas.
> 



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Re: [OSM-co] Mapeo de árboles

[Mario Frasca]

Hola Humberto!
y hola todos en la lista

On 01/07/16 16:28, hyan...@gmail.com wrote:
> vamos a iniciar una actividad exploratoria para crear un inventario de
> árboles en un barrio de la ciudad de Cartagena, 

inventario de árboles, me suena como mira las calles de la ciudad como
si fueran parte de un solo arboreto y me parece genial!

> me preguntaba si alguno de
> ustedes ha realizado actividades similares y pueda compartir sobre
> aplicaciones o métodos para hacerlo.

desde hace un par de años me estoy ocupando de desarrollar el software
libre ghini.desktop. es un programa que está dibujado para gestionar
colecciones botánicas. al lado de ghini.desktop existe un prototipo de
aplicación web para añadir la información geográfica a la base de datos.
pues naturalmente se apoya a OSM.

http://ghini.github.io

estoy convencido que te puede servir.

como ya ha escrito Marco Antonio, "es necesario tener conocimientos o
llevar a alguna botánica/o" cuando se identifiquen plantas (y te
expongas profesionalmente, publicando en alguna manera la identificación).

además de lo que escribe Marco Antonio (que me parece muy bien), diría
yo que la base de datos de OSM no está ni pensada ni adaptada al
problema. por cuanto me parezca una buena manera para publicar/compartir
los datos, si yo fuese el responsable del arboreto, absolutamente no
pondría la copia base de la información de mi colección botánica en la
base de OSM.

yo utilizaría un software diseñado para eso, y con opciones de
exportación de datos (como lo es ghini). — por cuanto estoy muy
impresionado del trabajo detrás http://overpass-turbo.eu/ !!

la otra respuesta que has recibido, de Andrés Gómez »Para la posición,
las fotos aéreas no sirven porque el follaje de los árboles no
identifica la posición del árbol, ya que se confunden. Además árboles
pequeños pueden ser tapado por los más altos.« me parece muy correcta.

el problema de georeferenciar árboles, sea con fotos aéreas o con GPS,
es un problema serio, sobre todo en bosques y sobre todo en zonas con
alta humedad (el Cáribe). lo que te sugiero es trabajar en papel, y si
necesitas buena precisión, de usar el método de la triangulación. pues,
a menos que no estés en zonas abiertas, con pocos árboles separados, y
con buenas fotos aéreas. de todas maneras, en centro del follaje tampoco
necesariamente es la posición del árbol, y menos en Cartagena, donde la
brisa es fuerte, con una dirección prevaleciente, rica en aerosol marino.

el método de grabar trazas GPS en forma de círculos alrededor de los
árboles puede funcionar, pero no en un bosque húmedo. cuando empecé este
trabajo en Río Cedro, que no pude terminar,
(http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/viento-solar_24077) había estudiado
un poco el problema y encontrado una publicación en inglés (sorry, no me
acuerdo el nombre de la publicación), y las conclusiones eran "(casi) no
puedes utilizar GPS en un bosque húmedo". la componente sistemática del
error puede ser importante.

me gusta la sugerencia de formar líneas con intersección el árbol a
localizar. puedes caminar en dirección del árbol desde dos puntos
diferentes, y si las trazas son suficientemente largas deberías ser
capaz de poner el punto. pero hacer esto para cada árbol es mucho
trabajo, más que una triangulación, sobre todo si medir distancias con
uno de estos aparatejos láser.

hope this helps
ciao
Mario

p.s.: te vas a dar cuenta de la complicación de la identificación cuando
empieces con las palmas que no sean "Cocos nucifera".



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