RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one takes this as rooting for them. And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. Amanda -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj Paddy Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 To: talk2 Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. Barry -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Hicks Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I got to about the third line of the message. Brandon Stephen Clower wrote: > So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get > them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the > author's attitude, despite his good intentions. > > Steve > > On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote: >> I haven't seen a message on this list for months. Why not let the >> content of this message speak for itself? >> >> From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav >> on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM >> >>> A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have >>> not signed >>> the WFA user protest site. >>> >>> Before I start my message the link right here and now is >>> www.talknav.com/protest >>> >>> Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have >>> to at >>> this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are >>> nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands. >>> >>> To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the >>> application signing, let alone additional support. >>> >>> Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the >>> organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you >>> lot, those >>> of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have >>> made me >>> rather upset and irritated. >>> >>> To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites >>> informing you >>> all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more >>> detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our >>> favour, >>> have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of >>> competence >>> when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This >>> individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your >>> local >>> blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I, >>> am very, >>> very disappointed in you all. >>> >>> As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if >>> you do not >>> own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the >>> list >>> says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind >>> folks, it >>> says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to >>> freedom >>> and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are >>> prepared >>> to use it when necessary. >>> >>> This protest is about more than just Wayfinder Access, it is a >>> symbol, now >>> please, I urge you all, we need this link spreading, we need it >>> sharing, >>> Face Book pages, Twitter, those of you who produce pod casts, >>> mailing lists >>> etc, etc, if you believe in your freedom to mobility and your rights to >>> accessible products then make your mark. >>> >>> More than this, those you know need to say that they too are in >>> support of >>> our cause, so get your address book and forward this link, >>> personalize it >>> with a few lines of message, get the word out there. >>> >>> The protest
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one takes this as rooting for them. And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. Amanda -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj Paddy Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 To: talk2 Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. Barry -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Hicks Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I got to about the third line of the message. Brandon Stephen Clower wrote: So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the author's attitude, despite his good intentions. Steve On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote: I haven't seen a message on this list for months. Why not let the content of this message speak for itself? From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not signed the WFA user protest site. Before I start my message the link right here and now is www.talknav.com/protest Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have to at this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands. To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the application signing, let alone additional support. Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you lot, those of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have made me rather upset and irritated. To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing you all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our favour, have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of competence when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your local blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I, am very, very disappointed in you all. As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if you do not own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the list says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind folks, it says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to freedom and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are prepared to use it when necessary. This protest is about more than just Wayfinder Access, it is a symbo
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do anything about it. On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one takes this as rooting for them. And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. Amanda -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj Paddy Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 To: talk2 Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. Barry -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Hicks Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I got to about the third line of the message. Brandon Stephen Clower wrote: So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the author's attitude, despite his good intentions. Steve On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote: I haven't seen a message on this list for months. Why not let the content of this message speak for itself? From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not signed the WFA user protest site. Before I start my message the link right here and now is www.talknav.com/protest Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have to at this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands. To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the application signing, let alone additional support. Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you lot, those of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have made me rather upset and irritated. To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing you all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our favour, have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of competence when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have
RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
Thanks for the compliment Doug. Now let me open up another can of worms. I'm not necessarily going out of my way to piss people off, but if it happens, oh well. I think that, to a large extent, a lot of blind people think they're entitled to accessibility from the private sector, and not only that, but entitled to it for free. Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a perfectly accessible world, where everything worked and we didn't have to pay extra or put in any extra work. But we don't. And at least in the US, (I live in the US so I can't comment on the UK or other countries), the ADA, which has very few teeth in itself, doesn't apply to the private sector, unless they're receiving government funding. And even then, there's the "reasonable accommodation" clause. So we really are, in most cases, better off hacking our own solutions together, and maybe sharing them with each other so there's less re-inventing of the wheel. Because trust me, if I were to, say, call FS and tell them that all this Red Hat crap I'm dealing with is almost inaccessible, and I want better support for terminal emulators, they're pretty much going to tell me to fuck myself because there's not enough of a market share for that sort of thing, and same goes for virtual machines and all these other nice new technologies they don't officially support. -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Doug Langley Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:12 To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do anything about it. On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: > I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these > internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only > help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time > working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one > we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear > from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole > petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. > so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, > "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting > vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. > > On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: >> K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this >> guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack >> thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither >> one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to >> get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and >> it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this >> is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one >> and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if >> every >> single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of >> their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case >> of the >> FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but >> the >> fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can >> pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go >> along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS >> to do >> anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one >> takes this as rooting for them. >> >> And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what >> had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. >> >> Amanda >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf >> Of Dj >> Paddy >> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 >> To: talk2 >> Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest >> >> Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. >> >> Barry >> >> -Original Message- >> From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of >> Brandon Hicks >> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM >> To: talk2 >> Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest >> >> Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom >> Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even >> that. This one's not going to get much more.
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
Not to mention most of those people aren't in countries Vodaphone serve. So there's another lack of insentive. Now if you had 700 blinks who were going to break contracts with them over it they might think again but as it is that's not going to happen. Vodaphone have nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing something about this, but the blinks feel entitled. Instead of putting the tallent to work for Loadstone they're just bitching. Typical. Brandon Doug Langley wrote: Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do anything about it. On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one takes this as rooting for them. And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. Amanda -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj Paddy Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 To: talk2 Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. Barry -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Hicks Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I got to about the third line of the message. Brandon Stephen Clower wrote: So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the author's attitude, despite his good intentions. Steve On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote: I haven't seen a message on this list for months. Why not let the content of this message speak for itself? From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not signed the WFA user protest site. Before I start my message the link right here and now is www.talknav.com/protest Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have to at this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands. To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the application signing, let alone additional support. Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you lot, those of you at the RNI
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
Has anyone approached loadstone about adding the googlemaps/earth api's? street view and directions are availible in many countrys. you add the loadstone user POIS to the google maps api and poi's and you actually have something going. google maps is the best source for free maps. if people dont want to pay mobile geo prices then implement google maps in to something like loadstone or build a completely open source cross platform app in either python or java and talk to the appropriate screen reader API's. On 3/2/2010 8:27 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote: Not to mention most of those people aren't in countries Vodaphone serve. So there's another lack of insentive. Now if you had 700 blinks who were going to break contracts with them over it they might think again but as it is that's not going to happen. Vodaphone have nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing something about this, but the blinks feel entitled. Instead of putting the tallent to work for Loadstone they're just bitching. Typical. Brandon Doug Langley wrote: Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do anything about it. On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one takes this as rooting for them. And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. Amanda -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj Paddy Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 To: talk2 Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. Barry -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Hicks Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I got to about the third line of the message. Brandon Stephen Clower wrote: So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the author's attitude, despite his good intentions. Steve On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote: I haven't seen a message on this list for months. Why not let the content of this message speak for itself? From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not signed the WFA user protest site. Before I star
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
That would be the best, and if I had the knowledge I'd do it or talk to them about it. Hopefully someone will, because Loadstone could be good if it just streamlined the process of getting maps and POIs and got access to the better maps from Google. Doug Langley wrote: Has anyone approached loadstone about adding the googlemaps/earth api's? street view and directions are availible in many countrys. you add the loadstone user POIS to the google maps api and poi's and you actually have something going. google maps is the best source for free maps. if people dont want to pay mobile geo prices then implement google maps in to something like loadstone or build a completely open source cross platform app in either python or java and talk to the appropriate screen reader API's. On 3/2/2010 8:27 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote: Not to mention most of those people aren't in countries Vodaphone serve. So there's another lack of insentive. Now if you had 700 blinks who were going to break contracts with them over it they might think again but as it is that's not going to happen. Vodaphone have nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing something about this, but the blinks feel entitled. Instead of putting the tallent to work for Loadstone they're just bitching. Typical. Brandon Doug Langley wrote: Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do anything about it. On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one takes this as rooting for them. And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. Amanda -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj Paddy Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 To: talk2 Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. Barry -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Brandon Hicks Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I got to about the third line of the message. Brandon Stephen Clower wrote: So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the author's attitude, despite his good intentions. Steve On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote: I haven't seen a mess
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
Here here. I've saved up and purchased all of my assistive tech over the years. No group of people is entitled to things for free just because of what may be wrong with them. Remember that virus that disabled all of the pirated copies of JAWS a couple years ago for Christmas? I'd really like to shake the hand of whoever put that crack together. I still chuckle about it when the incident comes to mind. Steve On 3/2/2010 10:21 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: Thanks for the compliment Doug. Now let me open up another can of worms. I'm not necessarily going out of my way to piss people off, but if it happens, oh well. I think that, to a large extent, a lot of blind people think they're entitled to accessibility from the private sector, and not only that, but entitled to it for free. Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a perfectly accessible world, where everything worked and we didn't have to pay extra or put in any extra work. But we don't. And at least in the US, (I live in the US so I can't comment on the UK or other countries), the ADA, which has very few teeth in itself, doesn't apply to the private sector, unless they're receiving government funding. And even then, there's the "reasonable accommodation" clause. So we really are, in most cases, better off hacking our own solutions together, and maybe sharing them with each other so there's less re-inventing of the wheel. Because trust me, if I were to, say, call FS and tell them that all this Red Hat crap I'm dealing with is almost inaccessible, and I want better support for terminal emulators, they're pretty much going to tell me to fuck myself because there's not enough of a market share for that sort of thing, and same goes for virtual machines and all these other nice new technologies they don't officially support. -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Doug Langley Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:12 To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do anything about it. On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one takes this as rooting for them. And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. Amanda -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj Paddy Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 To: talk2 Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. Barry -Original Message-
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
I hear ya there Steve. I didn't admittedly buy my screenreader, but nore did I crack it. Being on the beta team has it's advantages and if I had the money and a lot left over, I'd gladly buy it because I like it. I've successfully stired up a can of worms with this post though, just as I intended. Neil got the wrong attitude, but he's trying. Even if he achieves nothing at all, he's at least doing something. Those blind tards that want something for nothing well, they have no right to complain. Doug said on the petition, some people are demanding their money back. Like that's gonna happen. And as I said to him, in 2001 I payed £130 for a 45 gig hard drive. That drive is now very dead, and in a bin somewhere. Should I run to PC world demanding my money back because it's still not working? Like hell I should! Yet, blind people think they're entitled. Entitled to shit! Should be greatful they got anything at all. From: Stephen Clower on Tuesday, March 02, 2010 5:11 PM Here here. I've saved up and purchased all of my assistive tech over the years. No group of people is entitled to things for free just because of what may be wrong with them. Remember that virus that disabled all of the pirated copies of JAWS a couple years ago for Christmas? I'd really like to shake the hand of whoever put that crack together. I still chuckle about it when the incident comes to mind. Steve On 3/2/2010 10:21 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: Thanks for the compliment Doug. Now let me open up another can of worms. I'm not necessarily going out of my way to piss people off, but if it happens, oh well. I think that, to a large extent, a lot of blind people think they're entitled to accessibility from the private sector, and not only that, but entitled to it for free. Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a perfectly accessible world, where everything worked and we didn't have to pay extra or put in any extra work. But we don't. And at least in the US, (I live in the US so I can't comment on the UK or other countries), the ADA, which has very few teeth in itself, doesn't apply to the private sector, unless they're receiving government funding. And even then, there's the "reasonable accommodation" clause. So we really are, in most cases, better off hacking our own solutions together, and maybe sharing them with each other so there's less re-inventing of the wheel. Because trust me, if I were to, say, call FS and tell them that all this Red Hat crap I'm dealing with is almost inaccessible, and I want better support for terminal emulators, they're pretty much going to tell me to fuck myself because there's not enough of a market share for that sort of thing, and same goes for virtual machines and all these other nice new technologies they don't officially support. -Original Message- From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Doug Langley Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:12 To: talk2 Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do anything about it. On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
this is something I've been pondering for the last 2 weeks after a conversation with onj the Asterisk pbx uses a bounty system to get stuff done. So, basically you take donations for 3-9 months, then offer the money to developers to complete the project. and the project that I invision is an open source product based on google maps that's multi plat form. pc, and winmo/symbian. WX widgits are availible for all our major platforms. In theory this isnt hard to setup but I can smell the headaches from a thousand miles away. People want donations back, people dont like the finished product etc. I'm not sure I want the project but It does leave me tempted to do it. On 3/2/2010 8:40 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote: block quote That would be the best, and if I had the knowledge I'd do it or talk to them about it. Hopefully someone will, because Loadstone could be good if it just streamlined the process of getting maps and POIs and got access to the better maps from Google. Did you miss a message? Well, don't. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/ has it for you. Never miss a Talk2 message again.
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
thats a point actually my brother uses google maps all the time. At 05:33 a.m. 3/03/2010, you wrote: >Has anyone approached loadstone about adding the googlemaps/earth api's? >street view and directions are availible in many countrys. you add the >loadstone user POIS to the google maps api and poi's and you actually have >something going. google maps is the best source for free maps. if people dont >want to pay mobile geo prices then implement google maps in to something like >loadstone or build a completely open source cross platform app in either >python or java and talk to the appropriate screen reader API's. > > >On 3/2/2010 8:27 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote: >>Not to mention most of those people aren't in countries Vodaphone serve. So >>there's another lack of insentive. Now if you had 700 blinks who were going >>to break contracts with them over it they might think again but as it is >>that's not going to happen. Vodaphone have nothing to gain and everything to >>lose by doing something about this, but the blinks feel entitled. Instead of >>putting the tallent to work for Loadstone they're just bitching. Typical. >> >>Brandon >> >>Doug Langley wrote: >>>Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its >>>coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which wont >>>bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program and it >>>needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive for vodaphone >>>to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability to break even? >>>First and formost its about money and 777 blind people that signed a >>>petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to ever give them >>>another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do anything about it. >>> >>> >>>On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, "because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: >K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this >guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack >thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither >one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to >get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and >it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this >is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one >and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every >single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of >their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the >FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the >fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can >pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go >along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do >anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one >takes this as rooting for them. > >And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what >had happened to you. Good to see you're still around. > >Amanda > > > >-Original Message- >From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj >Paddy >Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35 >To: talk2 >Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest > >Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access. > >Barry > >-Original Message- >From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of >Brandon Hicks >Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM >To: talk2 >Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest > >Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom >Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even >that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I >got to about the third line of the message. > >Brandon > >Stephen Clower wrote: >>So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get >>them is to insult
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
yeah it did other things to. At 06:11 a.m. 3/03/2010, you wrote: >Here here. I've saved up and purchased all of my assistive tech over the >years. No group of people is entitled to things for free just because of what >may be wrong with them. Remember that virus that disabled all of the pirated >copies of JAWS a couple years ago for Christmas? I'd really like to shake the >hand of whoever put that crack together. I still chuckle about it when the >incident comes to mind. > >Steve > > >On 3/2/2010 10:21 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: >>Thanks for the compliment Doug. Now let me open up another can of worms. >>I'm not necessarily going out of my way to piss people off, but if it >>happens, oh well. >> >>I think that, to a large extent, a lot of blind people think they're >>entitled to accessibility from the private sector, and not only that, but >>entitled to it for free. Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a perfectly >>accessible world, where everything worked and we didn't have to pay extra >>or put in any extra work. But we don't. And at least in the US, (I live in >>the US so I can't comment on the UK or other countries), the ADA, which >>has very few teeth in itself, doesn't apply to the private sector, unless >>they're receiving government funding. And even then, there's the >>"reasonable accommodation" clause. So we really are, in most cases, better >>off hacking our own solutions together, and maybe sharing them with each >>other so there's less re-inventing of the wheel. Because trust me, if I >>were to, say, call FS and tell them that all this Red Hat crap I'm dealing >>with is almost inaccessible, and I want better support for terminal >>emulators, they're pretty much going to tell me to fuck myself because >>there's not enough of a market share for that sort of thing, and same goes >>for virtual machines and all these other nice new technologies they don't >>officially support. >> >> >> >>-Original Message- >>From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of >>Doug Langley >>Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:12 >>To: talk2 >>Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest >> >>Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its >>coffin. Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which >>wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program >>and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive >>for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability >>to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people >>that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to >>ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do >>anything about it. >> >> >>On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote: >> >>>I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these >>>internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only >>>help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time >>>working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one >>>we would probably all be better off. This is vodaphone. they hear >>>from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole >>>petition. And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. >>>so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say, >>>"because it didnt make business sense." Thank you for contacting >>>vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future. >>> >>>On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote: >>> K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the >>lack >> thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. >>Neither >> one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but >>this >> is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no >>one >> takes this as rooting for them. And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering >>what >> had happened to you. Good to see you're still aro
Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest
hmmm do it anyway. Ok I can't prommise any donations but I am part admin of a podcast site, I can submit material for inclusion, I can probably promote the project heck could even get my own section basedon that project if I wished at least I think I can. At 06:32 a.m. 3/03/2010, you wrote: >this is something I've been pondering for the last 2 weeks after a >conversation with onj >the Asterisk pbx uses a bounty system to get stuff done. So, basically you >take donations for 3-9 months, then offer the money to developers to complete >the project. and the project that I invision is an open source product based >on google maps that's multi plat form. pc, and winmo/symbian. WX widgits >are availible for all our major platforms. > >In theory this isnt hard to setup but I can smell the headaches from a >thousand miles away. People want donations back, people dont like the finished >product etc. I'm not sure I want the project but It does leave me tempted to >do it. > >On 3/2/2010 8:40 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote: >block quote >That would be the best, and if I had the knowledge I'd do it or talk to them >about it. Hopefully someone will, because Loadstone could be good if it just >streamlined the process of getting maps and POIs and got access to the better >maps from Google. > > > > >Did you miss a message? Well, don't. >http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/ >has it for you. Never miss a Talk2 message again. Did you miss a message? Well, don't. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/ has it for you. Never miss a Talk2 message again.
