Re: Going forward not RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Jim via Talk]

Hi there!

Ju ast as a point of info, Window-Eyes is working great for me! Not 
certain of just what programs are not working, but, I know there are 
probably more than a few.  But, I think you will find that to be true 
with just about any screen reader.  Just my opinion! Catch Ya Later! de


.


On 14-Feb-17 15:36, Vaughan Dodd via Talk wrote:
Not negative subject lines at all: people offer them up to be 
thoughtful, helpful and to demonstrate that we need to be on top of 
change.





Vaughan.




On 2/12/2017 4:38 AM, Veronica Smith via Talk wrote:

Why is it that we keep putting out these negative subject lines.
>From my point of view Window Eyes is still working, it is still 
reading my

screen and I can still access all the things I need to.
Veronica
-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+madison_tewe=spinn@lists.window-eyes.com] On 
Behalf

Of Joseph Norton via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 1:33 PM
To: 'Pamela Dominguez'; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'; 'Steve Nutt'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Actually, in Office 2016, it's even easier than that.

All you have to do is press alt-q and you'll be placed in the "Tell 
me what

you want to do" box.



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+joseph.norton=gmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk>; Window-Eyes Discussion List
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Tab to what?  And do what?  I have never seen any tell me what to do 
edit

box.  Pam.

-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 1:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com ; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to 
access

ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you 
can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do 
edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply 
it is

buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk 
[mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]

On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than 
those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by 
change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how 
this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to 
learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for 
a long

time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major 
change to

the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products. However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually 
possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the 
mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the 
mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is 
not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft 
Office.  The

complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has 
pretty

much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our 
ability to

repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is 
to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon 
sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond 
what we

are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to 
get the

information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the 
desired

item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator key

Re: Going forward not RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Vaughan Dodd via Talk]

Not negative subject lines at all: people offer them up to be 
thoughtful, helpful and to demonstrate that we need to be on top of change.





Vaughan.




On 2/12/2017 4:38 AM, Veronica Smith via Talk wrote:

Why is it that we keep putting out these negative subject lines.
>From my point of view Window Eyes is still working, it is still reading my
screen and I can still access all the things I need to.
Veronica
-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+madison_tewe=spinn@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf
Of Joseph Norton via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 1:33 PM
To: 'Pamela Dominguez'; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'; 'Steve Nutt'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Actually, in Office 2016, it's even easier than that.

All you have to do is press alt-q and you'll be placed in the "Tell me what
you want to do" box.



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+joseph.norton=gmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk>; Window-Eyes Discussion List
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Tab to what?  And do what?  I have never seen any tell me what to do edit
box.  Pam.

-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 1:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com ; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first

Going forward not RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Veronica Smith via Talk]

Why is it that we keep putting out these negative subject lines.
>From my point of view Window Eyes is still working, it is still reading my
screen and I can still access all the things I need to.
Veronica
-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+madison_tewe=spinn@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf
Of Joseph Norton via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 1:33 PM
To: 'Pamela Dominguez'; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'; 'Steve Nutt'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Actually, in Office 2016, it's even easier than that.

All you have to do is press alt-q and you'll be placed in the "Tell me what
you want to do" box.



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+joseph.norton=gmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk>; Window-Eyes Discussion List
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Tab to what?  And do what?  I have never seen any tell me what to do edit
box.  Pam.

-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 1:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com ; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first item starting with that letter.  If there is another item starting
with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is
used.  In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, and
we 

RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Steve Jacobson via Talk]

Steve,

It would be interesting to sit down with you and understand better what your
approach is, I would guess that there is a good deal I could learn from you.
However, I still feel you are missing the point of what I wrote.  

To clarify, I would maintain that if Microsoft changed to some new menu
structure tomorrow and you and a sighted co-worker sat down tomorrow to do
some task and the items needed for that task was on the screen that it is
likely they would do it faster until you became more familiar with the new
structure and developed an approach.  I have not ever argued that you might
not develop methods of doing it more quickly, but you have to go through the
development process.  Many of us do this and we compete well.  When I
originally wrote on this, I was responding some to posts that indicated that
we tend to not like change and that we have to realize the world is
changing.  I'm paraphrasing.  My contention was that when things change, we
tend to have to take the time to develop and/or learn alternative means to
work efficiently.  In some cases, the methods we choose will be more
efficient than the visual interface that is generally used.  I also
recognize that some sighted people develop their own more efficient
approaches as well.  Therefore, change poses more of a problem for those of
us who need to develop a more efficient way of operating because we are at
somewhat of a disadvantage until we have alternative procedures in place.
Our alternative approaches, once in place, may very well be more efficient,
but in some cases, our alternative approaches need better support.

.  You may have a way around this, but I have found that using keystrokes in
Excel, for example, has gotten more frustrating.  I find that if I type a
three key sequence quickly to get to a known item on the ribbon, sometimes
keystrokes are lost.  Therefore, I have to throttle back sometimes.  I
probably still get there faster, though, than by moving a mouse.  Let me be
clear, I am not saying it can't be done and that we can't get good at it,
only that I think we have more of a challengs at the outset which makes us
not embrace change when it happens.  You may still disagree with me, but I
have never argued that we could never be more efficient than someone using a
mouse, as long as some of the methods we use are implemented well.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt [mailto:st...@comproom.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 10:38 AM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

I would disagree.  I can often find things in word quicker than sighted
people using that box.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 15 January 2017 20:29
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Steve,

This is a useful tip, and I was not trying to assume anything.  My point,
though, was that we adopt strategies to be efficient that may depend upon a
number of less obvious features of programs.  Even your solution is not as
quick as visually finding something on the ribbon, moving the mouse pointer
to it and clicking.  However, adding a feature that is used often to the
custom toolbar is probably quicker than using a mouse, but this still
involves some setup.  We work to find ways of being efficient and by
networking and such we succeed pretty well.  I was not saying it couldn't be
done.  However, when software is updated, our methods of being efficient are
often broken and need to be recreated, even if the software is technically
accessible.  I think this makes some of our resistance to change
understandable, and I also think we have to think some about interface
issues in the long run because change will become more and more a part of
the evolution of technology.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt [mailto:st...@comproom.co.uk]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 12:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Ey

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Nick Sarames via Talk]

And yet, I have never used the ribbon and haven't a clue about it.  Not 
sure whether to feel ignorant or what?

On 1/19/2017 12:16 PM, Jim via Talk wrote:
> Hi there GUYS!
>
> When the ribbin was first introduced I wanted nothing to do with it.
> Now it is just a part of my everyday computing and I never give it a
> second thought unless there is something there which I cannot find.  My
> first PC was an old xp then a 286 then a 486 all runnig  various
> versions of DOS.  I really didn't wish to switch to windows, but my
> buddy that was helping me with computers simply brought over a win 98
> system and I started using it.  My first Windows screen reader was
> VinVision and I really liked the ease of use with that software.  Of
> course when I went to XP I had to switch to Window Eyes which I have kep
> since then.  I went from 98 to XP to Win 7 then Win 10 and I found
> it to be a rather easy trip. Maybe the facth that I have a lot of
> technical friends that I can call on when I have a question most
> certainly helps! Anyhow, just a bit of personal computing history.
> Catch Ya All Later! de
>
> .
>
>
> On 19-Jan-17 11:37, Steve Nutt via Talk wrote:
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> I would disagree.  I can often find things in word quicker than sighted
>> people using that box.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Talk
>> [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
>> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
>> Sent: 15 January 2017 20:29
>> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
>> Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> This is a useful tip, and I was not trying to assume anything.  My point,
>> though, was that we adopt strategies to be efficient that may depend
>> upon a
>> number of less obvious features of programs.  Even your solution is
>> not as
>> quick as visually finding something on the ribbon, moving the mouse
>> pointer
>> to it and clicking.  However, adding a feature that is used often to the
>> custom toolbar is probably quicker than using a mouse, but this still
>> involves some setup.  We work to find ways of being efficient and by
>> networking and such we succeed pretty well.  I was not saying it
>> couldn't be
>> done.  However, when software is updated, our methods of being
>> efficient are
>> often broken and need to be recreated, even if the software is
>> technically
>> accessible.  I think this makes some of our resistance to change
>> understandable, and I also think we have to think some about interface
>> issues in the long run because change will become more and more a part of
>> the evolution of technology.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Steve Nutt [mailto:st...@comproom.co.uk]
>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 12:48 PM
>> To: steve.jacob...@visi.com; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
>> <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
>> Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to
>> access
>> ribbons and options within them.
>>
>> In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
>> find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do
>> edit
>> box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply
>> it is
>> buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
>> methods of getting there quickly.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Talk
>> [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
>> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
>> Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
>> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
>> Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?
>>
>> Peter and all,
>>
>> While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
>> accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than
>> those
>> of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by
>> change
>> than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how
>> this can
>> be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to
>> learn
>> software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a
>> long
>> time and have become effici

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Jim via Talk]

Hi there GUYS!

When the ribbin was first introduced I wanted nothing to do with it.  
Now it is just a part of my everyday computing and I never give it a 
second thought unless there is something there which I cannot find.  My 
first PC was an old xp then a 286 then a 486 all runnig  various 
versions of DOS.  I really didn't wish to switch to windows, but my 
buddy that was helping me with computers simply brought over a win 98 
system and I started using it.  My first Windows screen reader was 
VinVision and I really liked the ease of use with that software.  Of 
course when I went to XP I had to switch to Window Eyes which I have kep 
since then.  I went from 98 to XP to Win 7 then Win 10 and I found 
it to be a rather easy trip. Maybe the facth that I have a lot of 
technical friends that I can call on when I have a question most 
certainly helps! Anyhow, just a bit of personal computing history.  
Catch Ya All Later! de


.


On 19-Jan-17 11:37, Steve Nutt via Talk wrote:

Hi Steve,

I would disagree.  I can often find things in word quicker than sighted
people using that box.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 15 January 2017 20:29
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Steve,

This is a useful tip, and I was not trying to assume anything.  My point,
though, was that we adopt strategies to be efficient that may depend upon a
number of less obvious features of programs.  Even your solution is not as
quick as visually finding something on the ribbon, moving the mouse pointer
to it and clicking.  However, adding a feature that is used often to the
custom toolbar is probably quicker than using a mouse, but this still
involves some setup.  We work to find ways of being efficient and by
networking and such we succeed pretty well.  I was not saying it couldn't be
done.  However, when software is updated, our methods of being efficient are
often broken and need to be recreated, even if the software is technically
accessible.  I think this makes some of our resistance to change
understandable, and I also think we have to think some about interface
issues in the long run because change will become more and more a part of
the evolution of technology.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt [mailto:st...@comproom.co.uk]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 12:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to

RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Steve Nutt via Talk]

Hi Steve,

I would disagree.  I can often find things in word quicker than sighted
people using that box.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 15 January 2017 20:29
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Steve,

This is a useful tip, and I was not trying to assume anything.  My point,
though, was that we adopt strategies to be efficient that may depend upon a
number of less obvious features of programs.  Even your solution is not as
quick as visually finding something on the ribbon, moving the mouse pointer
to it and clicking.  However, adding a feature that is used often to the
custom toolbar is probably quicker than using a mouse, but this still
involves some setup.  We work to find ways of being efficient and by
networking and such we succeed pretty well.  I was not saying it couldn't be
done.  However, when software is updated, our methods of being efficient are
often broken and need to be recreated, even if the software is technically
accessible.  I think this makes some of our resistance to change
understandable, and I also think we have to think some about interface
issues in the long run because change will become more and more a part of
the evolution of technology.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt [mailto:st...@comproom.co.uk]
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 12:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to g

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Curtis Delzer via Talk]

One thing, in Becky if you wish read-to-end to work again, you can
change, under general settings, the third page of options, (message view),
the HTML option that "convert to plain text, to use, instead, the IE5
view which is the second from the top of 3 radio buttons.
Then your read-to-end keys are the same as those you'd use in Internet
explorer of which it is using one of the components of.
Other advantages are easier clicking on links in HTML email messages,
but, there are disadvantages as well, though you can as easily turn it
off and go back to "convert to plain text" as well to get what you have
now, back again.
Of course, in the normal view of Becky, hitting the space bar to scroll
the message 24 or so lines and then hitting control=-shift-d to read the
field which I use works too, but auto-read works well when using the
html view.
That option is about 21 tabs from the start of the "message view" page,
or about 10 or so shift-tabs from the other way. :)

-
Curtis Delzer, HS.
K6VFO
San Bernardino, CA

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 09:03:39 -0800 (PST)
Butch Bussen via Talk  wrote:

> You are so right, and have you looked at stereo systems lately?  Same old, 
> same old, read the display.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
> 
> 
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017, Dave via Talk wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
> > Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.
> >
> > Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
> > more effort on my part to find the same information.
> >
> > Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
> > looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
> > do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
> > results is quite flaky.
> >
> > This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
> > doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
> > harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.
> >
> > The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
> > account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
> > Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
> > could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
> > in the next day or two.
> >
> > Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
> > features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200.  My
> > screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
> > it might not.
> >
> > Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
> > have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
> > all the selections, choices and options.
> >
> > This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
> > responsible for the two steps backwards.
> >
> > Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
> > company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
> > programs.
> >
> > Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
> > choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
> > Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
> > time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
> > though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
> > exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
> > easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
> > in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.
> >
> > I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
> > and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.
> >
> > There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
> > accurately.
> >
> > The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use.  I can
> > pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
> > those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.
> >
> > customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well.  Not
> > well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.
> >
> > I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
> > back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
> > with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
> > for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
> > or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
> > to the feature to use it.
> >
> >
> > I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
> > stuck in the past.
> >
> > However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
> > equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
> > comes to 

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Kim Lingo via Talk]

   I remember having a keyboard in the 1990's until I was obliged 
to sell it in 2006 due to a temporary cash shortage.  It was by a company 
called Ensoniq, and the model number was TS12.  It had 76 keys, and they 
were weighted.  It had internal banks of sounds that were accessible by a 
series of buttons.  There was a screen, but you could memorize positions of 
sounds easily, and you could also rearrange the positioning of sounds, so if 
there were any you used frequently such as in live performances, you could 
have them right at your fingertips.  There were six buttons in a bank, and 
there were nine different banks in the internal ram.  You could also access 
a large number of sounds stored on a floppy disk.  The last two banks could 
store regular sounds, or you could load in sample sounds which took up a 
whole lot of space.


I now have a Yamaha Portable Grand.  It uses a dial to access all the 
sounds, and is not really designed for live gigs if you're blind.  I'd like 
to see something these days more like the Ensoniq stuff, but doubt I will.

Kim Lingo


-Original Message- 
From: Dave via Talk

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 2:00 PM
To: peter Chin ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

For years, Music keybords have ben off limits due to those screens.

I haven't looked at keyboards for about four years now, but before then,
there was a huge amount of memorization required to use some keyboards.
And no matter what was memorized on other keyboards, they would be off
limits to anyone blind enough to not see the screen.


And along with Keyboards, there are Amps, and loads of Guitar peadals
that now have those screens.  And many have so many features, that
memorizing them is a huge task.  And if the menus are the type that
cycle through and back around and around and around, these are very
difficult for most everyone Blind.



Grumpy Dave

--
Dave <dlh...@centurylink.net>

___
Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author 
and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.


For membership options, visit 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/banjopapa03%40gmail.com.
For subscription options, visit 
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___
Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author 
and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.

For membership options, visit 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com.
For subscription options, visit 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
List archives can be found at 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Dave via Talk]

For years, Music keybords have ben off limits due to those screens.  

I haven't looked at keyboards for about four years now, but before then,
there was a huge amount of memorization required to use some keyboards.   
And no matter what was memorized on other keyboards, they would be off
limits to anyone blind enough to not see the screen.


And along with Keyboards, there are Amps, and loads of Guitar peadals
that now have those screens.  And many have so many features, that
memorizing them is a huge task.  And if the menus are the type that
cycle through and back around and around and around, these are very
difficult for most everyone Blind.  



Grumpy Dave

-- 
Dave 

___
Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author 
and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.

For membership options, visit 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com.
For subscription options, visit 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
List archives can be found at 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com

RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Joseph Norton via Talk]

Actually, in Office 2016, it's even easier than that.

All you have to do is press alt-q and you'll be placed in the "Tell me what
you want to do" box.



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+joseph.norton=gmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Pamela Dominguez via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 2:34 PM
To: Steve Nutt <st...@comproom.co.uk>; Window-Eyes Discussion List
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Tab to what?  And do what?  I have never seen any tell me what to do edit
box.  Pam.

-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt via Talk
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 1:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com ; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first item starting with that letter.  If there is another item starting
with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is
used.  In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, and
we get these keystrokes reinforced by the menu system itself.

So what about the ribbon.  Pretty much all of the above approaches are
implemented in the ribbon.  In addition, there are keys to jump through the
groups as well.  However, many, if not most, of the accellerator key
sequences have changed there.  Rather than needing to look for a command or
function for an extra second or two, we can spend a great deal of time
working through the ribbon sequentially or trying keystrokes we think might
work.  The effec

RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Steve Jacobson via Talk]

Steve,

This is a useful tip, and I was not trying to assume anything.  My point,
though, was that we adopt strategies to be efficient that may depend upon a
number of less obvious features of programs.  Even your solution is not as
quick as visually finding something on the ribbon, moving the mouse pointer
to it and clicking.  However, adding a feature that is used often to the
custom toolbar is probably quicker than using a mouse, but this still
involves some setup.  We work to find ways of being efficient and by
networking and such we succeed pretty well.  I was not saying it couldn't be
done.  However, when software is updated, our methods of being efficient are
often broken and need to be recreated, even if the software is technically
accessible.  I think this makes some of our resistance to change
understandable, and I also think we have to think some about interface
issues in the long run because change will become more and more a part of
the evolution of technology.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson


-Original Message-
From: Steve Nutt [mailto:st...@comproom.co.uk] 
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 12:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first item starting with that letter.  If there is another item starting
with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is
used.  In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, and
we get these keystrokes reinforced

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Pamela Dominguez via Talk]

Tab to what?  And do what?  I have never seen any tell me what to do edit 
box.  Pam.


-Original Message- 
From: Steve Nutt via Talk

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 1:48 PM
To: steve.jacob...@visi.com ; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first item starting with that letter.  If there is another item starting
with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is
used.  In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, and
we get these keystrokes reinforced by the menu system itself.

So what about the ribbon.  Pretty much all of the above approaches are
implemented in the ribbon.  In addition, there are keys to jump through the
groups as well.  However, many, if not most, of the accellerator key
sequences have changed there.  Rather than needing to look for a command or
function for an extra second or two, we can spend a great deal of time
working through the ribbon sequentially or trying keystrokes we think might
work.  The effect of the change on us is far greater than it is on people
using these same products with vision even though accessibility exists
technically.

I've used the ribbon as an example because it is probably one of the more
extreme examples and it is one we have often faced.  However, this
difference in how we access software is very true in other areas.  For
example, because of how accellerator keys are assigned, changing the order
that items appear in a pulldown menu can change which keys access them.  A

RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Steve Nutt via Talk]

Hi Steve,

You're assuming though that everyone has to go the long way round to access
ribbons and options within them.

In Office for example, you don't need to access the ribbon when you can't
find something.  Just bring it up, then tab to the Tell Me What To Do edit
box, and type in what you want.  It is usually found, however deeply it is
buried.  The problem is training.  Trainers don't teach these additional
methods of getting there quickly.

All the best

Steve

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+steve=comproom.co...@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: 13 January 2017 16:53
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first item starting with that letter.  If there is another item starting
with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is
used.  In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, and
we get these keystrokes reinforced by the menu system itself.

So what about the ribbon.  Pretty much all of the above approaches are
implemented in the ribbon.  In addition, there are keys to jump through the
groups as well.  However, many, if not most, of the accellerator key
sequences have changed there.  Rather than needing to look for a command or
function for an extra second or two, we can spend a great deal of time
working through the ribbon sequentially or trying keystrokes we think might
work.  The effect of the change on us is far greater than it is on people
using these same products with vision even though accessibility exists
technically.

I've used the ribbon as an example because it is probably one of the more
extreme examples and it is one we have often faced.  However, this
difference in how we access software is very true in other areas.  For
example, because of how accellerator keys are assigned, changing the order
that items appear in a pulldown menu can change which keys access them.  A
change in the order may hardly be noticed by someone clicking with a mouse
but needing to use different keystrokes to get there can have a much greater
impact on us.  It requires that we relearn a pattern while it requires only
a minor adjustment for the person using a mouse.  Moving a

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[peter Chin via Talk]

Hello Steve,

Thanks very much for your well explained message. I completely agree with 
you. Let those blind people who feel smug about their ability to adapt to 
changes take note.
Dave brought up the problem about the washing machine.I think that those 
blind people using electronic keyboards to play music are going to face 
similar difficulties with touch screens being implemented.


-Original Message- 
From: Steve Jacobson via Talk

Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 12:53 AM
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first item starting with that letter.  If there is another item starting
with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is
used.  In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, and
we get these keystrokes reinforced by the menu system itself.

So what about the ribbon.  Pretty much all of the above approaches are
implemented in the ribbon.  In addition, there are keys to jump through the
groups as well.  However, many, if not most, of the accellerator key
sequences have changed there.  Rather than needing to look for a command or
function for an extra second or two, we can spend a great deal of time
working through the ribbon sequentially or trying keystrokes we think might
work.  The effect of the change on us is far greater than it is on people
using these same products with vision even though accessibility exists
technically.

I've used the ribbon as an example because it is probably one of the more
extreme examples and it is one we have often faced.  However, this
difference in how we access software is very true in other areas.  For
example, because of how accellerator keys are assigned, changing the order
that items appear in a pulldown menu can change which keys access them.  A
change in the order may hardly be noticed by someone clicking with a mouse
but needing to use different keystrokes to get there can have a much greater
impact on us.  It requires that we relearn a pattern while it requires only
a minor adjustment for the person using a mouse.  Moving an item out of a
menu into a toolbar might make it more quickly identifiable visually while
it might make it harder for us to find in some cases, especially if the item
is moved

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Nick Sarames via Talk]

I'm sure it's not as simple as, "they don't care."

On 1/14/2017 6:25 PM, Butch Bussen via Talk wrote:
> One point you're missing is that accessibility could be designed into
> much of this stuff if they wanted to.  Obviously they don't care.  My
> stereo system that is 30 years old is much more accessible than stuff
> that is out there these days.  Just because it is the latest doesn't
> make it the greatest.  Take ham radio gear, for example.  Kenwood has
> made their stuff talk for years and their latest stuff talks well and is
> completely accessible to us.  Yaesu, on the other hand, does not talk at
> all and they have made it plain they don't care.  My point is it can be
> done with today's technology if companies are willing.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2017, Chris Skarstad via Talk wrote:
>
>> and the wo-is-me party continues...
>>
>> come on guys! instead of being so negative, be happy that we have all
>> this great stuff. it may not work as well as we like sometimes, but we
>> have it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/14/2017 9:16 AM, Russ Kiehne via Talk wrote:
>>>  And lets take a look at what Apple did with the current version of
>>> Itunes.
>>>  It's not nearly as accessible as it was in version 11.
>>>
>>>  -----Original Message- From: Dave via Talk
>>>  Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:58 AM
>>>  To: wohlg...@gmail.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
>>>  Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?
>>>
>>>  Hi Jim,
>>>
>>>  There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
>>>  Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.
>>>
>>>  Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
>>>  more effort on my part to find the same information.
>>>
>>>  Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
>>>  looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
>>>  do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
>>>  results is quite flaky.
>>>
>>>  This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
>>>  doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
>>>  harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.
>>>
>>>  The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
>>>  account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
>>>  Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
>>>  could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
>>>  in the next day or two.
>>>
>>>  Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
>>>  features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200. My
>>>  screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then
>>> again,
>>>  it might not.
>>>
>>>  Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
>>>  have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to
>>> read
>>>  all the selections, choices and options.
>>>
>>>  This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window
>>> Eyes
>>>  responsible for the two steps backwards.
>>>
>>>  Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
>>>  company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many
>>> other
>>>  programs.
>>>
>>>  Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
>>>  choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
>>>  Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
>>>  time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
>>>  though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
>>>  exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
>>>  easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the
>>> screen
>>>  in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.
>>>
>>>  I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
>>>  and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.
>>>
>>>  There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
>>>  accurately.
>>>
>>>  The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use. I can
>>>  pick up calls an

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Butch Bussen via Talk]

One point you're missing is that accessibility could be designed into 
much of this stuff if they wanted to.  Obviously they don't care.  My 
stereo system that is 30 years old is much more accessible than stuff 
that is out there these days.  Just because it is the latest doesn't 
make it the greatest.  Take ham radio gear, for example.  Kenwood has 
made their stuff talk for years and their latest stuff talks well and is 
completely accessible to us.  Yaesu, on the other hand, does not talk at 
all and they have made it plain they don't care.  My point is it can be 
done with today's technology if companies are willing.

73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Sat, 14 Jan 
2017, Chris Skarstad via Talk wrote:



and the wo-is-me party continues...

come on guys! instead of being so negative, be happy that we have all this 
great stuff. it may not work as well as we like sometimes, but we have it.





On 1/14/2017 9:16 AM, Russ Kiehne via Talk wrote:

 And lets take a look at what Apple did with the current version of Itunes.
 It's not nearly as accessible as it was in version 11.

 -Original Message- From: Dave via Talk
 Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:58 AM
 To: wohlg...@gmail.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
 Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

 Hi Jim,

 There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
 Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.

 Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
 more effort on my part to find the same information.

 Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
 looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
 do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
 results is quite flaky.

 This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
 doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
 harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.

 The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
 account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
 Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
 could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
 in the next day or two.

 Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
 features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200. My
 screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
 it might not.

 Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
 have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
 all the selections, choices and options.

 This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
 responsible for the two steps backwards.

 Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
 company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
 programs.

 Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
 choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
 Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
 time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
 though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
 exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
 easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
 in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.

 I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
 and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.

 There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
 accurately.

 The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use. I can
 pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
 those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.

 customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well. Not
 well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.

 I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
 back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
 with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
 for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
 or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
 to the feature to use it.


 I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
 stuck in the past.

 However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
 equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
 comes to using it.Hundreds of features are there, for the few who
 might need to use them.  But most features go un used, and yet, the
 manufacturers can say their phone has more features, or our program has
 more choices etc. etc. etc.


 So, I do believe we the Blind

RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Kevin Minor via Talk]

Hi all.

I agree with Chris to a point.  We have more accessible programs than in the 
past, however, things could be better.  I approach things with the saying, if 
you want to attract flies, it's better to use honey than vinegar.  We need to 
convince manufacturers of software and other electronic devices to add features 
that not only the blind could use, but other people as well.  I have three 
examples of this thinking.

I remember when the Kurzweil Reading Machine first came out.  It was amazing 
that a machine in the mid 70's could take print from a book and convert it to 
speech.  The speech wasn't the best, But it was useable, and for the nice 
little cost of $50,000 you could get one.  As the years went by the KRM went 
down in price, and, last I heard, when it was around you could get one for 
around $6,000.  Now, go ahead a few years to the PC.  Someone thought that, 
rather than storing papers in files, they could be scanned as images into a PC 
and be read that way.  Then someone had a thought.  Maybe this person saw a 
KRM, and he or she thought, "Wouldn't it be neat to convert those images into 
text files which could be edited?" and, BANG!  OCR came to a PC.  In late 1990 
or early 1991 I got OmniPage for my PC, and I was able to do OCR on the PC.  I 
had better vision than now, but I think I was able to use the software with 
little effort.  Then, a few years later, assistive technology comp
 anies like Kurzweil came out with OCR solutions for the blind.  Kurzweil isn't 
cheap, but for a little over $1,000 you can get it.

Another great example of what I'm talking about is the iPhone.  In this case, 
Apple went the opposite way than OCR.  They put VoiceOver on the phone 
specificly for the blind, and those of us who used the phone thought that it 
was nice to have speech out of the box, and not costing anything for it.  Next, 
Siri came along, and both sighted and blind found it nice to ask Siri questions 
and get a response from the iPhone.  Now, I see this option as a bonus, 
especially when Hey Siri is on, which has the phone listening for you to say 
"Hey Siri" and the phone then waits for your question.  This is specificly nice 
for drivers of vehicles who shouldn't look at the iPhone when driving in 
traffic at a high rate of speed.

Finally, I'd like to report on another device that has become more accessible, 
and that's TV.  This includes the Apple TV, and other streaming content.  Some 
cable providers have implemented speech to access their content.  In fact, this 
week I got a laptop from Spectrum.  Some of you out there might say this isn't 
a good solution, but I'll point out a few things about it.  First, you can 
stream live content to the laptop, and there are quite a few channels 
available.  Second, there's a guide that you can access to learn what channel 
is shown, what's currently on the channel, and what's coming up.  Finally, the 
laptop has a SAP option that you can activate, and, if the station has SAP 
available you can turn it on.  I haven't found a show with DVS, but one is on 
Fox tonight, and I'll tune into it to see if it is described.  Also, if you 
should decide to go the laptop route, don't believe that you have to use the 
mouse pad to access things.  The software works perfectly well wi
 th a keyboard.  As I said, this option may not work for some, but, since I'm 
the only one in the apartment it works well for me.

My point for this long message is that things aren't perfect, but they could 
definitely be worse.  When I talk to manufacturers about accessibility, when 
possible, I mention how a feature would benefit both the blind and sighted.  
Siri is such a thing, and, so long as companies remember to give verbal or 
tactile feedback, we'll have accessible items.

That's all I can think of to write.  For those of you frustrated with what 
you're using, I can sympathize, and hope you get a working solution that you're 
satisfied with.  If not, consider what I've said.  Tell companies how it would 
benefit them to make something accessible, and if possible, show them how not 
just the blind, but everybody could benefit by this improvement.

Have a blessed day and don't work too hard.
Kevin Minor and the amazing Jilly, Lexington, KY
___
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Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Patricia Krinke via Talk]

Thanks, Chris.  Your knowledge and positivity are wonderful!  Thanks,


Trish

-Original Message- 
From: Chris Skarstad via Talk
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 9:59 AM
To: Russ Kiehne ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

and the wo-is-me party continues...

come on guys! instead of being so negative, be happy that we have all
this great stuff. it may not work as well as we like sometimes, but we
have it.




On 1/14/2017 9:16 AM, Russ Kiehne via Talk wrote:
> And lets take a look at what Apple did with the current version of Itunes. 
> It's not nearly as accessible as it was in version 11.
>
> -Original Message- From: Dave via Talk
> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:58 AM
> To: wohlg...@gmail.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
> Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.
>
> Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
> more effort on my part to find the same information.
>
> Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
> looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
> do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
> results is quite flaky.
>
> This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
> doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
> harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.
>
> The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
> account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
> Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
> could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
> in the next day or two.
>
> Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
> features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200. My
> screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
> it might not.
>
> Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
> have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
> all the selections, choices and options.
>
> This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
> responsible for the two steps backwards.
>
> Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
> company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
> programs.
>
> Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
> choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
> Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
> time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
> though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
> exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
> easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
> in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.
>
> I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
> and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.
>
> There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
> accurately.
>
> The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use. I can
> pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
> those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.
>
> customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well. Not
> well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.
>
> I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
> back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
> with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
> for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
> or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
> to the feature to use it.
>
>
> I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
> stuck in the past.
>
> However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
> equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
> comes to using it.Hundreds of features are there, for the few who
> might need to use them.  But most features go un used, and yet, the
> manufacturers can say their phone has more features, or our program has
> more choices etc. etc. etc.
>
>
> So, I do believe we the Blind are losing the level of accessibility we
> once had in the past.
>
> Grumpy Dave
>
>

__

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Jay via Talk]

Well said John. I agree with you 100 percent. We all have problems with 
accessibility, in one way or another. While we can bitch and moan about it, we 
also have to adapt to today's world. Just my thoughts on this. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 14, 2017, at 9:28 AM, John Farley via Talk 
> <talk@lists.window-eyes.com> wrote:
> 
> And just what impact do these tales of woe have?
> 
> Life moves on, do what mankind have done from the start and learn how to
> live with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards, John
> 
> Tel: +44 (0) 1442 259243
> Mob: +44 (0) 7815 056076
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Talk
> [mailto:talk-bounces+john_farley=btinternet@lists.window-eyes.com] On
> Behalf Of Bryan Peterson via Talk
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 4:22 PM
> To: Chris Skarstad; Window-Eyes Discussion List
> Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?
> 
> It's a valid concern.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 14, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Chris Skarstad via Talk
> <talk@lists.window-eyes.com> wrote:
>> 
>> and the wo-is-me party continues...
>> 
>> come on guys! instead of being so negative, be happy that we have all this
> great stuff. it may not work as well as we like sometimes, but we have it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 1/14/2017 9:16 AM, Russ Kiehne via Talk wrote:
>>> And lets take a look at what Apple did with the current version of
> Itunes. It's not nearly as accessible as it was in version 11.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message- From: Dave via Talk
>>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:58 AM
>>> To: wohlg...@gmail.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?
>>> 
>>> Hi Jim,
>>> 
>>> There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
>>> Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.
>>> 
>>> Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
>>> more effort on my part to find the same information.
>>> 
>>> Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
>>> looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
>>> do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
>>> results is quite flaky.
>>> 
>>> This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
>>> doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
>>> harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.
>>> 
>>> The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
>>> account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
>>> Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
>>> could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
>>> in the next day or two.
>>> 
>>> Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
>>> features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200. My
>>> screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
>>> it might not.
>>> 
>>> Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
>>> have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
>>> all the selections, choices and options.
>>> 
>>> This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
>>> responsible for the two steps backwards.
>>> 
>>> Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
>>> company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
>>> programs.
>>> 
>>> Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
>>> choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
>>> Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
>>> time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
>>> though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
>>> exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
>>> easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
>>> in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.
>>> 
>>> I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
>>> and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.
>>> 
>>> There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
>>> accurately.
>>> 
>>> Th

RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[John Farley via Talk]

And just what impact do these tales of woe have?

Life moves on, do what mankind have done from the start and learn how to
live with it.



Regards, John

Tel: +44 (0) 1442 259243
Mob: +44 (0) 7815 056076




-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+john_farley=btinternet@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Bryan Peterson via Talk
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 4:22 PM
To: Chris Skarstad; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

It's a valid concern.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 14, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Chris Skarstad via Talk
<talk@lists.window-eyes.com> wrote:
> 
> and the wo-is-me party continues...
> 
> come on guys! instead of being so negative, be happy that we have all this
great stuff. it may not work as well as we like sometimes, but we have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1/14/2017 9:16 AM, Russ Kiehne via Talk wrote:
>> And lets take a look at what Apple did with the current version of
Itunes. It's not nearly as accessible as it was in version 11.
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Dave via Talk
>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:58 AM
>> To: wohlg...@gmail.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?
>> 
>> Hi Jim,
>> 
>> There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
>> Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.
>> 
>> Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
>> more effort on my part to find the same information.
>> 
>> Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
>> looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
>> do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
>> results is quite flaky.
>> 
>> This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
>> doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
>> harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.
>> 
>> The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
>> account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
>> Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
>> could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
>> in the next day or two.
>> 
>> Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
>> features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200. My
>> screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
>> it might not.
>> 
>> Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
>> have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
>> all the selections, choices and options.
>> 
>> This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
>> responsible for the two steps backwards.
>> 
>> Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
>> company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
>> programs.
>> 
>> Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
>> choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
>> Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
>> time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
>> though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
>> exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
>> easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
>> in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.
>> 
>> I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
>> and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.
>> 
>> There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
>> accurately.
>> 
>> The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use. I can
>> pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
>> those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.
>> 
>> customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well. Not
>> well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.
>> 
>> I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
>> back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
>> with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
>> for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
>> or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Bryan Peterson via Talk]

It's a valid concern.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 14, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Chris Skarstad via Talk 
> <talk@lists.window-eyes.com> wrote:
> 
> and the wo-is-me party continues...
> 
> come on guys! instead of being so negative, be happy that we have all this 
> great stuff. it may not work as well as we like sometimes, but we have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1/14/2017 9:16 AM, Russ Kiehne via Talk wrote:
>> And lets take a look at what Apple did with the current version of Itunes. 
>> It's not nearly as accessible as it was in version 11.
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Dave via Talk
>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:58 AM
>> To: wohlg...@gmail.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?
>> 
>> Hi Jim,
>> 
>> There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
>> Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.
>> 
>> Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
>> more effort on my part to find the same information.
>> 
>> Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
>> looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
>> do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
>> results is quite flaky.
>> 
>> This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
>> doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
>> harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.
>> 
>> The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
>> account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
>> Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
>> could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
>> in the next day or two.
>> 
>> Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
>> features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200. My
>> screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
>> it might not.
>> 
>> Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
>> have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
>> all the selections, choices and options.
>> 
>> This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
>> responsible for the two steps backwards.
>> 
>> Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
>> company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
>> programs.
>> 
>> Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
>> choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
>> Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
>> time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
>> though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
>> exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
>> easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
>> in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.
>> 
>> I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
>> and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.
>> 
>> There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
>> accurately.
>> 
>> The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use. I can
>> pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
>> those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.
>> 
>> customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well. Not
>> well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.
>> 
>> I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
>> back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
>> with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
>> for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
>> or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
>> to the feature to use it.
>> 
>> 
>> I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
>> stuck in the past.
>> 
>> However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
>> equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
>> comes to using it.Hundreds of features are there, for the few who
>> might need to use them.  But most feat

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Chris Skarstad via Talk]

and the wo-is-me party continues...

come on guys! instead of being so negative, be happy that we have all 
this great stuff. it may not work as well as we like sometimes, but we 
have it.





On 1/14/2017 9:16 AM, Russ Kiehne via Talk wrote:
And lets take a look at what Apple did with the current version of 
Itunes. It's not nearly as accessible as it was in version 11.


-Original Message- From: Dave via Talk
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:58 AM
To: wohlg...@gmail.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Jim,

There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.

Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
more effort on my part to find the same information.

Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
results is quite flaky.

This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.

The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
in the next day or two.

Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200. My
screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
it might not.

Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
all the selections, choices and options.

This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
responsible for the two steps backwards.

Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
programs.

Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.

I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.

There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
accurately.

The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use. I can
pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.

customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well. Not
well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.

I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
to the feature to use it.


I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
stuck in the past.

However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
comes to using it.Hundreds of features are there, for the few who
might need to use them.  But most features go un used, and yet, the
manufacturers can say their phone has more features, or our program has
more choices etc. etc. etc.


So, I do believe we the Blind are losing the level of accessibility we
once had in the past.

Grumpy Dave




___
Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author 
and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.

For membership options, visit 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com.
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Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Russ Kiehne via Talk]

And lets take a look at what Apple did with the current version of Itunes. 
It's not nearly as accessible as it was in version 11.


-Original Message- 
From: Dave via Talk

Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 7:58 AM
To: wohlg...@gmail.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi Jim,

There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.

Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
more effort on my part to find the same information.

Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
results is quite flaky.

This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.

The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
in the next day or two.

Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200.  My
screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
it might not.

Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
all the selections, choices and options.

This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
responsible for the two steps backwards.

Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
programs.

Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.

I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.

There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
accurately.

The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use.  I can
pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.

customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well.  Not
well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.

I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
to the feature to use it.


I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
stuck in the past.

However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
comes to using it.Hundreds of features are there, for the few who
might need to use them.  But most features go un used, and yet, the
manufacturers can say their phone has more features, or our program has
more choices etc. etc. etc.


So, I do believe we the Blind are losing the level of accessibility we
once had in the past.

Grumpy Dave


--
Dave <dlh...@centurylink.net>

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Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[peter Chin via Talk]

Hello List,

Jim asked for examples of things that don't work so well these days. I can 
think of a few. When looking at the list of files in a folder under "User" 
or File Explorer, I used to be able, using Window-Eyes  to get the spelling 
of the name of a file by holding down the control key and pressing the 
number 5 on the numpad twice. It no longer works. I can still do it in 
Windows Live Mail but not in my "User" folder or under file explorer in 
Windows 8.1. When I enter a folder which is empty or has only one file, 
Window-Eyes used to let me know. Not any more. Fortunately, this still works 
in Windows Live Mail. User windows in W-E 9 don't work so well either. If 
anyone has any explanations or suggestions, I would be very glad to hear 
them.


-Original Message- 
From: Jim via Talk

Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 4:40 AM
To: john_far...@btinternet.com ; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hi there Dave and Group!

Dave, can you site some examples of what you are talking about -2 steps
forward and 3 back or 3 forward and 2 back? I have been using
Window-Eyes since version 5.1  and every major update has given a great
deal more functionality to the program as well as the user as fara as I
can see.  Wonder if you might be able to site a specific example where
things are broke or just don't work as well.  Yes, I do have to learn a
few things with these updates but I consider that to be part of using
technology.  If I run across something that just doesn't work or at the
least work as advertised I will be the first to scream and jump up and
down and want to know what is wrong.  B*ut just because something works
a bit differently doesn't mean that it is broke.  I guess I have gone on
long enough on this subject.  BTW, I have yet to find any real issues
with W.E. aside from a Thunderbird issue which isn't related  to W.E. as
far as I can see since I experience the same issues with NVDA and
Narator.  Have A Good 1! de*

*.*


On 12-Jan-17 11:03, John Farley via Talk wrote:

And do you think that the world of television, domestic appliances,
automobiles etc. are any different.

The VI community are not immune from change.



Regards, John

Tel: +44 (0) 1442 259243
Mob: +44 (0) 7815 056076



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+john_farley=btinternet@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Dave via Talk
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 3:30 PM
To: A I Squared Support
Subject: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Yes, it does seem as if those who sell products to earn a living, cannot
resist the temptation to change it, and changing it sometimes is for the
better, but many times, the changes is one or two steps backwards.

Marketing puts pressure on Development to come up with something NEw NEW
NEW, and so Development does, and Marketing is Happy, but is the end
user always happy?

Most people that use a computer, are not Computer Geeks.  They use the
computer, to do their jobs, or to do their household duties, Bill paying
etc.

and when Microsoft, or who ever comes out with their latest offering,
people are forced to re=learn what they had already learned in the
earlier edition of the same software.

I talk with people all over the country, and I do this on my job.  And
computers is what we talk about.  Time and time again, people have told
me, they do not like Big Big changes.  Changes big enough to require
them to look at the latest edition and wonder where they start, because
the new edition is so different.

Now it takes three steps to do what once took two, or even one.

In the case of Screen Readers, now our Readers read even less of the
program than it did before.

this is what I mean by going backwards.

I have no solution, as it seems that Change is the best way to gain
new customers but once these customers are familiar with the program,
any major changes are not welcome, unless those changes streamline the
work the program does for the user.

One Step forward and Two Steps back?

  this is not Progress, just in case anyone is confused.

Grumpy Dave




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Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Neville via Talk]

I totally agree with you Dave regarding software and appliances.

It is impossible for me to use our large convection  microwave because, 
depending how fast the knob is turned,the time setting jumps by 
differing amounts. Instead, I had to purchase a simple smaller microwave 
with a glass panel and mark it with raised dots.


As for software, many of the latest and best anti virus   programmes are 
not completely accessible with speech any more. Nod32 and Vipre are just 
two in this category.


Both Thunderbird and Firefox used to be completely screen accessible 
with WE but this negatively changed quite some versions ago. Using 
control shift W does give some access but nothing like it used to be.



Neville.


On 14/01/2017 1:58 AM, Dave via Talk wrote:

Hi Jim,

There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.

Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
more effort on my part to find the same information.

Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
results is quite flaky.

This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.

The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
in the next day or two.

Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200.  My
screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
it might not.

Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
all the selections, choices and options.

This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
responsible for the two steps backwards.

Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
programs.

Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.

I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.

There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
accurately.

The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use.  I can
pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.

customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well.  Not
well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.

I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
to the feature to use it.


I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
stuck in the past.

However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
comes to using it.Hundreds of features are there, for the few who
might need to use them.  But most features go un used, and yet, the
manufacturers can say their phone has more features, or our program has
more choices etc. etc. etc.


So, I do believe we the Blind are losing the level of accessibility we
once had in the past.

Grumpy Dave



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RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Peter Duran via Talk]

Hey Steve,

A great summary of the problem!  I concur with everything that you said so
well.

Let me raise two points about accessibility that will trouble us more and
more.

The ribbon is a good example.  Microsoft spent big bucks researching it.  It
was clear to software developers that menus lost their usefulness when the
number of options grew out of hand; the rivvon was implemented to cram more
options in a visually simple format.  

In reality, most folks use a mere handful of rivvon options, like me, and
the rivvon nnavigation tools mostly suffice.  However the number of features
and their options will continue to increase, and then what?

I suspect, but do not know for sure, that Microsoft will have Cortana do
more as Windows improves; so you could just state the option you want.

There is another access crisis emerging.  Within 10 years or so, about 20
percent of the population will be 65 years old and older, and, like us, they
cannot see the multitude of displays on consumer appliances, cell phones,
and so on.  So, developers will need to find innovative ways to let users
access a plethora of options in an efficient manner.

Engineers are aware of the growing problem, but lack a unified solution
currently.  My wife bought me a book a few years ago entitled the "Laws of
Simplicity" written by a frustrated MIT engineer, in which he said how he
found new gadgets hard to learn and use.

Progress will continue and so will are frustrations about it.

Peter Duran

-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+peterduran2015=outlook@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via Talk
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 11:53 AM
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first item starting with that letter.  If there is another item starting
with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is
used.  In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, and
we get these keystrokes reinforced by the menu system itself.

So what about the ribbon.  Pretty much all of the above approaches are
implemented in the ribbon.  In addition, there are keys to jump through the
groups as well.  However, many, if not most, of the accellerator key
sequences ha

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Butch Bussen via Talk]

You are so right, and have you looked at stereo systems lately?  Same 
old, same old, read the display.

73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Fri, 13 Jan 2017, Dave via Talk 
wrote:



Hi Jim,

There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.

Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
more effort on my part to find the same information.

Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
results is quite flaky.

This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.

The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
in the next day or two.

Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200.  My
screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
it might not.

Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
all the selections, choices and options.

This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
responsible for the two steps backwards.

Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
programs.

Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.

I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.

There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
accurately.

The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use.  I can
pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.

customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well.  Not
well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.

I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
to the feature to use it.


I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
stuck in the past.

However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
comes to using it.Hundreds of features are there, for the few who
might need to use them.  But most features go un used, and yet, the
manufacturers can say their phone has more features, or our program has
more choices etc. etc. etc.


So, I do believe we the Blind are losing the level of accessibility we
once had in the past.

Grumpy Dave


--
Dave 

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RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Steve Jacobson via Talk]

Peter and all,

While I mostly agree with you, especially given that we have fairly good
accessibility built into products that are much more complicated than those
of fifteen or twenty years ago, I think we are often affected more by change
than are sighted people.  There needs to be some thought as to how this can
be handled.  While this can affect the ability of a new blind user to learn
software, its greatest impact is on those who have used software for a long
time and have become efficient in its use.

For example, let's look at the Microsoft Ribbon.  This was a major change to
the way that options are displayed in Microsoft products.  However, even
though it can be frustrating for sighted users. It is usually possible to
locate options by visually inspecting the ribbon and then moving the mouse
directly to that item without serious delay.  The act of moving the mouse to
a given location and then clicking on it is a standard action that is not
dependent on anything that is unique to the ribbon or Microsoft Office.  The
complaints I hear from sighted users are more along the line of how much
space the ribbon takes, and there are even some workarounds for that.  I
don't read a lot of complaints about the ribbon any more in the general
press although I suppose there are complaints out there yet.

So why was the change to the ribbon difficult for us?  The ribbon has pretty
much always been accessible in a technical sense.  In my opinion, it is
because our greatest efficiency is achieved by our memory and our ability to
repeat a sequence of actions reliably.  When confronted with the ribbon
rather than a typical menu system, our method of finding an item is to use
the navigation that is built into Office to examine the ribbon sequentially.
If that navigation is sluggish, it will slow our ability even beyond what we
are already experiencing because of needing to look sequentially.
Therefore, even when accessibility is implemented, we depend upon more
levels of the software, operating system and specific software, to get the
information we need.  In addition, we are needing to access information
sequentially rather than being able to take the shortest path to the desired
item as can be done visually with the mouse.

We do get around all this in time by learning keyboard shortcuts and
accellerator keys.  As a rule, though, keyboard shortcuts and accellerators
are assigned to some degree by their locations in menus and ribbons.  In
menus, there were generally two keystrokes involved, the first to get to the
pulldown and the second to choose the specific item.  The order of the items
in a menu affect the keystrokes assigned.  Typing a letter will get one to
the first item starting with that letter.  If there is another item starting
with the same letter, the next letter of the item not already assigned is
used.  In the end, we generally figure out how to do this efficiently, and
we get these keystrokes reinforced by the menu system itself.

So what about the ribbon.  Pretty much all of the above approaches are
implemented in the ribbon.  In addition, there are keys to jump through the
groups as well.  However, many, if not most, of the accellerator key
sequences have changed there.  Rather than needing to look for a command or
function for an extra second or two, we can spend a great deal of time
working through the ribbon sequentially or trying keystrokes we think might
work.  The effect of the change on us is far greater than it is on people
using these same products with vision even though accessibility exists
technically.

I've used the ribbon as an example because it is probably one of the more
extreme examples and it is one we have often faced.  However, this
difference in how we access software is very true in other areas.  For
example, because of how accellerator keys are assigned, changing the order
that items appear in a pulldown menu can change which keys access them.  A
change in the order may hardly be noticed by someone clicking with a mouse
but needing to use different keystrokes to get there can have a much greater
impact on us.  It requires that we relearn a pattern while it requires only
a minor adjustment for the person using a mouse.  Moving an item out of a
menu into a toolbar might make it more quickly identifiable visually while
it might make it harder for us to find in some cases, especially if the item
is moved to a deeper level in a menu because it is now on a toolbar.  There
are other examples as well but I've already gone on too long.

The point is that although I agree with Peter that we are probably better
off then we think regarding accessibility, there are things about efficient
interfaces that are not really well understood.  This is getting worse as
software becomes more complex and developers struggle to make their
applications easier to use visually.  While there are basics that we can
insist be implemented, it is really not easy to make all of the above clear
to a 

Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Dave via Talk]

Hi Jim,

There are all kinds of examples.  In Becky, I once had the ability to
Read to End, and now I no longer have this ability.  

Numerous Web Sites that once were reasonably accessible, now require
more effort on my part to find the same information.  

Ebay is a simple example.  I once could easily type in the item I was
looking for and run a search.  Now I need to take a few extra steps to
do the same thing, and then, sometimes, the reading of the search
results is quite flaky.  

This is probably due more to Ebay changing something than Window Eyes
doing something wrong.  But the bottom line is that I now am working
harder to get where I once could go fairly easily.

The other day, I was on a web site, I was attempting to create an
account, I could not because some where on that screen I was leaving a
Field open, and try as I might, I could never find the field, and I
could not create the account.  I'll need to get sighted help to do this
in the next day or two.  

Operating Systems and programs all have multiplied the number of
features, and a program that once had 50 features, now has 200.  My
screen reader might read many of these new menu choices, and then again,
it might not.  

Oh, I can still use the basic features, but I find that I don't always
have the ability to go into some of those new areas, and be able to read
all the selections, choices and options.  

This is partly due to multiple factors, and I am not holding Window Eyes
responsible for the two steps backwards.  

Frankly, I would think it is almost impossible for a Screen reading
company to give 100 per cent access to Windows, or Office, or many other
programs.  

Outside of Screen Readers, I think the Blind are given fewer and fewer
choices.  I bought a brand new Top of the Line Washer and Dryer for my
Wife.  I thought I might be able to continue to help do the wash from
time to time.  The machines had buttons.  Well, it turns out, even
though there are buttons, the user needs to read a screen to select the
exact cycle wanted for that load of wash.  And the dryer isn't any
easier.  It too has a screen and it requires the user to read the screen
in order to choose the desired dryer setting, time temp etc.  

I now need to read from a Braille card, the number of buttons to push
and in which order, to do a simple load of wash.

There are many Kitchen appliances that require sight to use them
accurately.  

The phone system where I work is almost impossible for me to use.  I can
pick up calls and dial out, but it requires sight to see another one of
those screens to pick the person you wish to transfer a call.  

customer Service Data bases, my Screen reader doesn't read well.  Not
well enough to effectively use it.  Same with the Tech Data base.  

I may have said that accessibility is taking one step forwards, and two
back.  Perhaps I should have said, that accessibility is not keeping up
with what accessibility is needed, which ends up meaning the same thing
for most Blind.  We can't use the equipment, or navigate the Web page,
or create an account, or do some type of editing, because we can't get
to the feature to use it.  


I am older, and some my want to say, that I am just an old dude who is
stuck in the past.  

However, what I see, is the typical consumer has a load of Electronic
equipment, and very very few know much more than the bare basics when it
comes to using it.Hundreds of features are there, for the few who
might need to use them.  But most features go un used, and yet, the
manufacturers can say their phone has more features, or our program has
more choices etc. etc. etc.  


So, I do believe we the Blind are losing the level of accessibility we
once had in the past.  

Grumpy Dave


-- 
Dave 

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RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Rod Hutton via Talk]

Hi Peter,

I enjoyed your post very much.  Having just completed my 19th Window-Eyes app, 
I do hope that whatever Windows screen readers survive, I hope it will be as 
easy to write apps for them as It has been for me to do with Window-Eyes.

Keep up the good work, and all the best. (smile)

Peace and long life,

Rod Hutton

-Original Message-
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail@lists.window-eyes.com] 
On Behalf Of Peter Duran via Talk
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 3:13 AM
To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' 
Subject: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Hello All,

There are different issues in play when discussing accessibility.

Computer technology has changed rapidly and relentlessly since the first 
computer made its appearance.  See the wonderful movie "Hidden Figures" 
currently in theaters about 3 African American women mathematicians who worked 
for NASA in the late fifties and beyond. They had to deal with racism, sexism, 
and rapid change in their jobs.
Us blind folks, until Section 508 of the Accessibility law came into effect, 
had alike discrimination in the workplace.  However, today,the major developers 
of software - Apple and Microsoft - build into their development efforts 
accessibility - perhaps not as fast as we would wish.

The marketplace drives Web and Internet developments, and that development 
occurs rapidly and in unexpected ways.  All of that makes it hard for 
developers of access technology to keep up.

I have been in the access biz for forty years and my customers have feared 
being left behind with every marketplace innovation.  The reality is, however, 
since Bill Gates of Microsoft made the commitment to accessibility, things have 
been really good for us.

I have no doubt that progress will continue, yes in fits and starts, 
nevertheless forward.

The core issue for us is whether third-party developers will disappear and 
access left to mainstream software manufacturers.  Apple does a good job with 
its VoiceOver software, and tech support of disabled users is solid!

iPhone technology has become the main communication tool for blind students in 
college and in professional job environments.  It is dynosaurs like us old 
dudes that resist change.  It took me lots of effort to get my wife to switch 
from a flip phone to an iPhone; she still refuses to learn more than she needs, 
but she now send text messages, pictures, cute visual effects, and so on.  Sad 
to say, the older we get, the harder its is to change.  (I have not as yet 
switched to Windows 10.  It is good to wait until the bugs are under control, 
until access catches up, and until the need arises.)  I did buy a Windows 10 HP 
laptop from QVC during their Christmas bash, and will get to it this Spring 
when I have time to write a tutorial for Windows 10.

Microsoft, with the change of leadership a couple of years ago, rethought its 
overall corporate structure and switched to a "vertical model" where all 
development groups are required to incorporate alike software into core 
products to ensure uniformity of functionality.  Last year, Microsoft created a 
new access group withsignificant powers to oversee accessibility issues.  It is 
my personal guess that Narrator  will become
A significant screen reader within Windows 10 and will rival the accessibility 
features of VoiceOver of Apple and of Window-Eyes and JAWS.

Let us all hope for the best access and let our dinosaur tendencies behind.

Peter Duran

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Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[brice Mijares via Talk]

Are you using windows ten? Window eyes does not perform  as it did in 
previous versions of windows. The mouse pointer and invisible curser are 
nearly useless! In my case, I have to use the rename folder or file 
function in order to find out how the folder or file is spelled. Can't 
do it no longer with the review curser.

On 1/12/2017 12:40
PM, Jim via Talk wrote:

Hi there Dave and Group!

Dave, can you site some examples of what you are talking about -2 steps
forward and 3 back or 3 forward and 2 back? I have been using
Window-Eyes since version 5.1  and every major update has given a great
deal more functionality to the program as well as the user as fara as I
can see.  Wonder if you might be able to site a specific example where
things are broke or just don't work as well.  Yes, I do have to learn a
few things with these updates but I consider that to be part of using
technology.  If I run across something that just doesn't work or at the
least work as advertised I will be the first to scream and jump up and
down and want to know what is wrong.  B*ut just because something works
a bit differently doesn't mean that it is broke.  I guess I have gone on
long enough on this subject.  BTW, I have yet to find any real issues
with W.E. aside from a Thunderbird issue which isn't related  to W.E. as
far as I can see since I experience the same issues with NVDA and
Narator.  Have A Good 1! de*

*.*


On 12-Jan-17 11:03, John Farley via Talk wrote:

And do you think that the world of television, domestic appliances,
automobiles etc. are any different.

The VI community are not immune from change.



Regards, John

Tel: +44 (0) 1442 259243
Mob: +44 (0) 7815 056076



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+john_farley=btinternet@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Dave via Talk
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 3:30 PM
To: A I Squared Support
Subject: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Yes, it does seem as if those who sell products to earn a living, cannot
resist the temptation to change it, and changing it sometimes is for the
better, but many times, the changes is one or two steps backwards.

Marketing puts pressure on Development to come up with something NEw NEW
NEW, and so Development does, and Marketing is Happy, but is the end
user always happy?

Most people that use a computer, are not Computer Geeks.  They use the
computer, to do their jobs, or to do their household duties, Bill paying
etc.

and when Microsoft, or who ever comes out with their latest offering,
people are forced to re=learn what they had already learned in the
earlier edition of the same software.

I talk with people all over the country, and I do this on my job.  And
computers is what we talk about.  Time and time again, people have told
me, they do not like Big Big changes.  Changes big enough to require
them to look at the latest edition and wonder where they start, because
the new edition is so different.

Now it takes three steps to do what once took two, or even one.

In the case of Screen Readers, now our Readers read even less of the
program than it did before.

this is what I mean by going backwards.

I have no solution, as it seems that Change is the best way to gain
new customers but once these customers are familiar with the program,
any major changes are not welcome, unless those changes streamline the
work the program does for the user.

One Step forward and Two Steps back?

  this is not Progress, just in case anyone is confused.

Grumpy Dave




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Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Jim via Talk]

Hi there Dave and Group!

Dave, can you site some examples of what you are talking about -2 steps 
forward and 3 back or 3 forward and 2 back? I have been using 
Window-Eyes since version 5.1  and every major update has given a great 
deal more functionality to the program as well as the user as fara as I 
can see.  Wonder if you might be able to site a specific example where 
things are broke or just don't work as well.  Yes, I do have to learn a 
few things with these updates but I consider that to be part of using 
technology.  If I run across something that just doesn't work or at the 
least work as advertised I will be the first to scream and jump up and 
down and want to know what is wrong.  B*ut just because something works 
a bit differently doesn't mean that it is broke.  I guess I have gone on 
long enough on this subject.  BTW, I have yet to find any real issues 
with W.E. aside from a Thunderbird issue which isn't related  to W.E. as 
far as I can see since I experience the same issues with NVDA and 
Narator.  Have A Good 1! de*


*.*


On 12-Jan-17 11:03, John Farley via Talk wrote:

And do you think that the world of television, domestic appliances,
automobiles etc. are any different.

The VI community are not immune from change.



Regards, John

Tel: +44 (0) 1442 259243
Mob: +44 (0) 7815 056076



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+john_farley=btinternet@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Dave via Talk
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 3:30 PM
To: A I Squared Support
Subject: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Yes, it does seem as if those who sell products to earn a living, cannot
resist the temptation to change it, and changing it sometimes is for the
better, but many times, the changes is one or two steps backwards.

Marketing puts pressure on Development to come up with something NEw NEW
NEW, and so Development does, and Marketing is Happy, but is the end
user always happy?

Most people that use a computer, are not Computer Geeks.  They use the
computer, to do their jobs, or to do their household duties, Bill paying
etc.

and when Microsoft, or who ever comes out with their latest offering,
people are forced to re=learn what they had already learned in the
earlier edition of the same software.

I talk with people all over the country, and I do this on my job.  And
computers is what we talk about.  Time and time again, people have told
me, they do not like Big Big changes.  Changes big enough to require
them to look at the latest edition and wonder where they start, because
the new edition is so different.

Now it takes three steps to do what once took two, or even one.

In the case of Screen Readers, now our Readers read even less of the
program than it did before.

this is what I mean by going backwards.

I have no solution, as it seems that Change is the best way to gain
new customers but once these customers are familiar with the program,
any major changes are not welcome, unless those changes streamline the
work the program does for the user.

One Step forward and Two Steps back?

  this is not Progress, just in case anyone is confused.

Grumpy Dave




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Re: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[Chris Skarstad via Talk]

that's how life goes, folks.  Change is inevitable and you have to 
figure out how to go with it.


Whining on an email list ain't gonna solve jack.

.



On 1/12/2017 11:03 AM, John Farley via Talk wrote:

And do you think that the world of television, domestic appliances,
automobiles etc. are any different.

The VI community are not immune from change.



Regards, John

Tel: +44 (0) 1442 259243
Mob: +44 (0) 7815 056076



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+john_farley=btinternet@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Dave via Talk
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 3:30 PM
To: A I Squared Support
Subject: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Yes, it does seem as if those who sell products to earn a living, cannot
resist the temptation to change it, and changing it sometimes is for the
better, but many times, the changes is one or two steps backwards.

Marketing puts pressure on Development to come up with something NEw NEW
NEW, and so Development does, and Marketing is Happy, but is the end
user always happy?

Most people that use a computer, are not Computer Geeks.  They use the
computer, to do their jobs, or to do their household duties, Bill paying
etc.

and when Microsoft, or who ever comes out with their latest offering,
people are forced to re=learn what they had already learned in the
earlier edition of the same software.

I talk with people all over the country, and I do this on my job.  And
computers is what we talk about.  Time and time again, people have told
me, they do not like Big Big changes.  Changes big enough to require
them to look at the latest edition and wonder where they start, because
the new edition is so different.

Now it takes three steps to do what once took two, or even one.

In the case of Screen Readers, now our Readers read even less of the
program than it did before.

this is what I mean by going backwards.

I have no solution, as it seems that Change is the best way to gain
new customers but once these customers are familiar with the program,
any major changes are not welcome, unless those changes streamline the
work the program does for the user.

One Step forward and Two Steps back?

  this is not Progress, just in case anyone is confused.

Grumpy Dave




___
Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author 
and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.

For membership options, visit 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com.
For subscription options, visit 
http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
List archives can be found at 
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RE: Going Backward in Accessibility?

[John Farley via Talk]

And do you think that the world of television, domestic appliances,
automobiles etc. are any different.

The VI community are not immune from change.



Regards, John

Tel: +44 (0) 1442 259243
Mob: +44 (0) 7815 056076



-Original Message-
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+john_farley=btinternet@lists.window-eyes.com] On
Behalf Of Dave via Talk
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 3:30 PM
To: A I Squared Support
Subject: Going Backward in Accessibility?

Yes, it does seem as if those who sell products to earn a living, cannot
resist the temptation to change it, and changing it sometimes is for the
better, but many times, the changes is one or two steps backwards.  

Marketing puts pressure on Development to come up with something NEw NEW
NEW, and so Development does, and Marketing is Happy, but is the end
user always happy?  

Most people that use a computer, are not Computer Geeks.  They use the
computer, to do their jobs, or to do their household duties, Bill paying
etc.  

and when Microsoft, or who ever comes out with their latest offering,
people are forced to re=learn what they had already learned in the
earlier edition of the same software.  

I talk with people all over the country, and I do this on my job.  And
computers is what we talk about.  Time and time again, people have told
me, they do not like Big Big changes.  Changes big enough to require
them to look at the latest edition and wonder where they start, because
the new edition is so different.  

Now it takes three steps to do what once took two, or even one.  

In the case of Screen Readers, now our Readers read even less of the
program than it did before.  

this is what I mean by going backwards.  

I have no solution, as it seems that Change is the best way to gain
new customers but once these customers are familiar with the program,
any major changes are not welcome, unless those changes streamline the
work the program does for the user.  

One Step forward and Two Steps back?  

  this is not Progress, just in case anyone is confused.  

Grumpy Dave


-- 
Dave 

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btinternet.com.
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___
Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author 
and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.

For membership options, visit 
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