[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[S. S.]

Though I recommend not taking the time and effort to see this yourself, 
there are just over 1,700 lines (meaning links to tiddlers) in the Table of 
Contents on www.tiddlywiki.com !

It seems that extensive use of parent/child tags has actually created an 
*Index* as opposed to a Table of Contents.

I find that intriguing.

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 11:58:12 PM UTC+7, S. S. wrote:
>
> So, I'm wondering, you make this parent *tiddler* – and then any other 
> tiddler inseminated with the parent's title – produces a *toddler* !
>  
> This whole tagging thing is so much like the 7 year old toddler, asking 
> his tiddler about the Birds and the Bees 
> . 
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Cyrill]

Hey,

I found it by just modify the file   "$:/.tb/template/list-examples"  by 
adding another reveal paragraph with the wished content field !

So how to make that editable in view-mode ?
Nice Regards



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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Cyrill]

Thanks Tony for your reply,

when I understand it correctly the reference {{!!caption}} show the content 
of the field. To remove the "variable" I think I had to change the macro of 
tobibeer ?
The list-search of him in my mind already shows after each of listed 
tiddlers two fields "filter" und "filter2" after the tags line.
How can I just modify it to show more custum fields in the output. 

Or can you give a short eample of coding the list widget ?

One thing Toby will also be nice : that the output inofrmations are 
directly editable without to open the tiddlers, to simplify the revisions 
of concordance between contents of fields in tags and custum fields in the 
lines nearby.

Nice regards



Am Mittwoch, 2. Januar 2019 01:54:20 UTC+1 schrieb TonyM:
>
> Cyrill,
>
> Of course it is easy, tobiases test filter is designed to only list the 
> titles of the tiddlers matching the filter.
>
> If you build your own list without using the "variable" you can reference 
> fields inside the list widget as current tiddler. Eg {{!!caption}}
>
> Or is there something more to your question?
>
> Tony
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[TonyM]

Cyrill,

Of course it is easy, tobiases test filter is designed to only list the titles 
of the tiddlers matching the filter.

If you build your own list without using the "variable" you can reference 
fields inside the list widget as current tiddler. Eg {{!!caption}}

Or is there something more to your question?

Tony

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Cyrill]

Hey Community,

perhaps a bit off-topic, but  I'm looking for a useful adaptation of the 
output (results) of the list-search (macro) by Tobibeer to re-organize Tags 
and Fields (for example : ontology or semantics)
 
http://tobibeer.github.io/tw/filters/#Filter%20Examples

Is it possible to show with to the listed tiddlers, beside Tags also some 
predefined custom fields *and* their contents ? If yes, it will be very 
helpful to be also directly editable.
Something like this

TIDDLER A
__TAGS
__FIELD1  and CONTENT of FIELD1
__FIELD2  and CONTENT of FIELD2

TIDDLER B
__TAGS
__FIELD1  and CONTENT of FIELD1
__FIELD2  and CONTENT of FIELD2
and so on

The idea is that some information is redundant and better to put in fields. 
Otherwise in TW the hierarchical information will be better shows by Tags. 
Thanks for hints or solutions

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[wjam]

Long time ago I made a copy of tiddlywiki.com 5.1.11 and added lots of 
additional tags to find stuff easier, some additional tiddlers to see all 
widgets tiddlers, Tiddlywiki quickref tab: an over the top view of all 
concepts, some flow diagrams for using local html or hosted tiddlyspot, 
examples for railroad diagrams, internals tab quick lookup (fill search field 
with appropriate search terms) where macros widgets and other features are used 
within the site itself, to be used for further  educational purposes
(also included my history plugin to keep track of all the tiddlers you visited 
when you traverse the site) maybe this can help to organize/organise some of 
the information present. Of course you can copy tiddlers when you like them.

http://tw5quickref.tiddlyspot.com

(to color your tag you must create a tiddler with the same name, and give it a 
field named color, however these tiddlers are considered normal tiddlers in the 
searchresults, that is probably why the color scheme was not continued.)

wjam

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[S. S.]

So, I'm wondering, you make this parent *tiddler* – and then any other 
tiddler inseminated with the parent's title – produces a *toddler* !
 
This whole tagging thing is so much like the 7 year old toddler, asking his 
tiddler about the Birds and the Bees 
. 

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Part of it IS art.

It is interesting how decisions on tags could be about colour encodement.

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

It feels like someone started a coloring scheme but then didn't follow up. 
You practically need an interior designer to get really good tag schemes ;-)

-- Mark

On Friday, December 28, 2018 at 3:11:02 AM UTC-8, S. S. wrote:
>
>
> Most all tags on tiddlywiki.com are the familiar mustard/gold.
> A few are different colours.
>
> Concepts 
>
> Definitions 
>
> Mechanisms 
>
> task 
>
> I am wondering why this is so.
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Ste Wilson]

I've used coloured tags for top level tags. Just to highlight them a little. 
Eye candy I guess. 

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[TonyM]

S s

Unless you use coloured tags, you have to read the tag name, so I think colour 
can be used effectivly on tags as it can be in many other cases. In my key wiki 
I use the class field to change the titles text and background to indicate 
tiddler type. You can use trafic light colours or even shades of one colour as 
a group.

I use deep reds and purples for references and have my own informal colour 
language I apply. It makes the interface a lot richer

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[S. S.]

Tony,

My thoughts were closer to - are different colours in this case some method 
of organization? Just eye-candy?

Can colours be used effectively as a visual aid in organizing? More than a 
visual aid - some way of categorizing?

I was just thinking out loud with my last post - wondering if anyone had 
used coloured tags for more than just decoration, and how they had used 
them in a way that helped organization/finding information and connections 
etc.

On Friday, December 28, 2018 at 7:54:42 PM UTC+7, TonyM wrote:
>
> S s
>
> Have a look in sidebar tools tag manager and set tag colours as you wish.
>
> Tony
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[TonyM]

S s

Have a look in sidebar tools tag manager and set tag colours as you wish.

Tony

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[S. S.]

Most all tags on tiddlywiki.com are the familiar mustard/gold.
A few are different colours.

Concepts 

Definitions 

Mechanisms 

task 

I am wondering why this is so.

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[bimlas]

According to this, it is still in the experimental state. In any case, 
thank you for the idea, I will try to it out by myself.

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Diego Mesa]

S.S

I think you perfectly captured a major problem with search in TW. The best 
thing to illustrate it, is what you just said:

*Title matches:*
*HelloThumbnail - HelpingTiddlyWiki*
HelpCommand
HelpingTiddlyWiki

There is no clearer way to say it...


On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 11:37:16 PM UTC-6, S. S. wrote:
>
>
> Since my TW's ToC is not structured around using hierarchical tags, let's 
> look at something more functional and interesting: *tiddlywiki.com 
> *
>
> Lets see how its tags work!
>
> Say I'm new to TW and I read [[HelloThere]] and wonder what to do next.
> In the search bar I type: *help*
>
> The top 3 are
>
> *Title matches:*
> HelloThumbnail - HelpingTiddlyWiki
> HelpCommand
> HelpingTiddlyWiki
>
> Without scrolling, this is what is visible under that.
>
> *All matches:*
> "BrainTest - tools for a digital brain" by Danielo Rodriguez
> "Creating a baby journal with TiddlyWiki 5" from A Penguin in Redmond
> "Hacks" by Thomas Elmiger
> "TiddlyWiki Toolmap" by David Gifford
> "TiddlyWiki5 Coding" by Chris Hunt
> Adopt a Titles Policy
> Alice in Wonderland
> Blog Edition
> BuildCommand
> ClearPasswordCommand
> Contributing
> Creating journal tiddlers
> Discover TiddlyWiki
> Draft of 'RenderTiddlersCommand'
> Editing Tiddlers with Emacs
> EditionsCommand
>
> Actually, there is no tiddler titled: *Help*
> And none of those relate to "Help" except maybe: *Discover TiddlyWiki*
>
> With a few more searches (example search for: *tiddler* - 499 matches - 
> 105 title matches - followed by a list of only the first 250), we can soon 
> ascertain that there appear to be NO keywords and NO grouping/sorting by 
> relevance.
>
> The "search" way of finding information is difficult until much later - 
> once one knows more specifically what to look for and what search terms 
> "hit" the right tiddlers.
>
> So then the Table of Contents is looked at. If a new user is lucky enough 
> to be able to expand the Header items (I remember it was quite some days 
> into using tiddlywiki before I even realized the table of contents could be 
> expanded) - well, we all know how hard it is to use this particular ToC.
>
> The website's Table of Contents has evolved by using tiddler names for 
> tags in order to take advantage of the hierarchy structure of the ToC 
> macros. However, finding information this way can be tricky and problematic.
>
> One imagines a TW that is presenting information for OTHERS to find - be 
> optimized for *navigation* and *search* ? I feel both these have been 
> compromised by having tiddler names as tags. Since tags are displayed at 
> the top of every tiddler - they might best be used as keywords? Or 
> categories? After all, what does seeing a tag named HelloThere at the top 
> of a tiddler mean to someone who is looking for information?
>
> I don't imagine the whole structure of tiddlywiki.com is going to be 
> changed. So - then - since tags have been used basically for a ToC 
> structure, perhaps what is needed is a concerted effort to incorporate 
> keywords? I don't know. I get quite lost as I try to imagine better ways to 
> structure both this TW, and subsequently my own. But I do know, from seeing 
> the difficulties on the tiddlywiki.com TiddlyWiki, that I need to find a 
> different way.
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[HansWobbe]

My sincere apologies for this late reply, but I got called into the 
resolution of a business dispute between two companies that took a lot more 
time and energy than I anticipated.

Unfortunately, I do not have a public-facing wiki that I can provide to 
illustrate my use of keywords, at this time.  I am not even sure yet when 
my transition from Tags to Keywords will reach the point that I can provide 
some clear examples.  I should be able to look at this a bit more deeply 
during the holidays and may be able to post some comments early in January.

Regards,
Hans


On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 5:32:04 PM UTC-5, bimlas wrote:
>
> @HansWobbe
>
 

> ...
>
 

> Can you plase give me an example wiki to use keywords?
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[S. S.]

Since my TW's ToC is not structured around using hierarchical tags, let's 
look at something more functional and interesting: *tiddlywiki.com*

Lets see how its tags work!

Say I'm new to TW and I read [[HelloThere]] and wonder what to do next.
In the search bar I type: *help*

The top 3 are

*Title matches:*
HelloThumbnail - HelpingTiddlyWiki
HelpCommand
HelpingTiddlyWiki

Without scrolling, this is what is visible under that.

*All matches:*
"BrainTest - tools for a digital brain" by Danielo Rodriguez
"Creating a baby journal with TiddlyWiki 5" from A Penguin in Redmond
"Hacks" by Thomas Elmiger
"TiddlyWiki Toolmap" by David Gifford
"TiddlyWiki5 Coding" by Chris Hunt
Adopt a Titles Policy
Alice in Wonderland
Blog Edition
BuildCommand
ClearPasswordCommand
Contributing
Creating journal tiddlers
Discover TiddlyWiki
Draft of 'RenderTiddlersCommand'
Editing Tiddlers with Emacs
EditionsCommand

Actually, there is no tiddler titled: *Help*
And none of those relate to "Help" except maybe: *Discover TiddlyWiki*

With a few more searches (example search for: *tiddler* - 499 matches - 105 
title matches - followed by a list of only the first 250), we can soon 
ascertain that there appear to be NO keywords and NO grouping/sorting by 
relevance.

The "search" way of finding information is difficult until much later - 
once one knows more specifically what to look for and what search terms 
"hit" the right tiddlers.

So then the Table of Contents is looked at. If a new user is lucky enough 
to be able to expand the Header items (I remember it was quite some days 
into using tiddlywiki before I even realized the table of contents could be 
expanded) - well, we all know how hard it is to use this particular ToC.

The website's Table of Contents has evolved by using tiddler names for tags 
in order to take advantage of the hierarchy structure of the ToC macros. 
However, finding information this way can be tricky and problematic.

One imagines a TW that is presenting information for OTHERS to find - be 
optimized for *navigation* and *search* ? I feel both these have been 
compromised by having tiddler names as tags. Since tags are displayed at 
the top of every tiddler - they might best be used as keywords? Or 
categories? After all, what does seeing a tag named HelloThere at the top 
of a tiddler mean to someone who is looking for information?

I don't imagine the whole structure of tiddlywiki.com is going to be 
changed. So - then - since tags have been used basically for a ToC 
structure, perhaps what is needed is a concerted effort to incorporate 
keywords? I don't know. I get quite lost as I try to imagine better ways to 
structure both this TW, and subsequently my own. But I do know, from seeing 
the difficulties on the tiddlywiki.com TiddlyWiki, that I need to find a 
different way.

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[TonyM]

S S, 

Sorry for a delay in my response. Responding in detail to you specific case 
is not helpful because in my view you are using lots of tags for different 
purposes, and this makes it complex and error bound, specifically in thew 
case you mention of  "anyone else using my TW". The thing is they are all 
tags, and really you would like to differentiate between different types of 
tag. There are I believe 2 ways to go from here;

   1.  Build the tools to select the appropriate tag(s) on each tiddler 
   (use tags on tags to group tags)
   2.  Move some or all of your current tags into fields or alternative tag 
   fields
   
You can use prefixes on your tags but you will need to educate the user 
what each prefix means, and this fact will be coded into your various 
macros and wiki text. 

I like the database designers rule for record keys and the attributes of a 
record, and tags just as tiddler titles, are keys to a piece of 
information. 

The data (non key information)  should be related to the key, the whole key 
and nothing but the key. In this case you are shoving the attribute of "tag 
type" into the tag name/key using your prefixes. 
This involves a compromise that may or may not effect your in the future, 
as your wiki evolves, for example what if you want a tag in more than one 
set, can it have two prefixes?

Why cant the tiddler time-binding itself have a tag sub-category and 
key-word? Why cant it be both?

1. For example, 
Have a tiddler for each of *abstraction* , *e-prime* , *linguistics* , 
*semiotics* ,* time-binding *and tag them all with "Sub-categories"
In a tiddler tagged $:/tags/ViewTemplate provide the user the ability to 
select/deselect one or multiple, of the "Sub-categories" tags

2. This is more involved but I need more information on the rules relating 
to each of your types of tags. However keywords will benefit from the 
alt-tags plugin because when you go to select a keyword the previously used 
ones are displayed (not all regular tags).

I know this is not a complete answer, but that would be a big job. Perhaps 
we can tackle each type of tag separately?

Regards
Tony


On Tuesday, 18 December 2018 01:29:11 UTC+11, S. S. wrote:
>
>
> Hi Tony,
>
> I've read your post a few times now and I'm still trying to wrap my head 
> around all you said.
> This is an interesting topic for me, so please indulge me a little longer!
>
> For an example, I have the following tags:
>
> Category: *general-semantics*
> Sub-categories: *abstraction* , *e-prime* , *linguistics* , *semiotics* ,* 
> time-binding* , etc.
> Key-Words: *absolutism* , *elementalism* , *extensional* , *intensional* 
> , *multiordinal* , etc.
> Group-related: *definition* etc.
>
> An information tiddler that incorporates some of these 
> topics/concepts/ideas is now tagged with the Category: *general-semantics* 
> & the sub-category: *time-binding* & the key word: *extensional*
>
> There are tiddlers named: extensional &  time-binding - that are both 
> tagged with *definition* & *general-semantics. *This is because they 
> actually have info about the definition of these terms, but nothing related 
> to their being a tag. 
>
> All the sub-category tags should have a tiddler? - that is tagged with 
> their parent category: *general-semantics* ( and any other categories 
> they may also belong to)? I believe I do this often, though not as a rule.
>
>
> *?Questions?*
> I do not have a tiddler named: general-semantics. Instead it is named General 
> Semantics. This is tagged with *definition* & *general-semantics*
> Would you say this is wrong? Should its title be exactly the same as the 
> tag - in all lower-case? Should there be two separate tiddlers, one 
> lower-case, like the tag, one initial-caps like I have now?
>  
> I (and anyone else using my TW) should then inherently KNOW that the tags 
> *general-semantics* refer to a Category, *time-binding* to a 
> Sub-Category, and *extensional* is a Key-Word - or we should be able to 
> somehow find within the TW this information?
>
> Take the tag *time-binding *for example. Sometimes it is used as a 
> sub-category tag, sometimes as a keyword - is that how it should be? What 
> do I gain?
> How about when it is a sub-category I use *@time-binding* and when it is 
> a key-word, I use *#time-binding* ? What do I lose?
>
> Sorry for being so pedantic :(
>
>
> Edit: corrected from: intentional to: extensional
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[bimlas]

@HansWobbe

I'm a big fan of tags as you were, but I see the weakness of this system 
(for example, 4 notes belong to 11 tags).

The tags help me when I do not remember any keywords that I can write the 
search for, so it's good if I can search them out of a list. There is no 
such list of Keywords (if I guess well), so I can not imagine being more 
effective than tags.

Can you plase give me an example wiki to use keywords?

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[HansWobbe]

Mark:

Thanks for posting this.  It's good to have another experienced view on 
this subject since I find myself gradually reducing the use of Tags in 
favor of using Keywords more, as there are many times when I find myself 
moving away from one methodology only to find that the newer one has its 
own limitations.

I am finding that setting up a few Search templates that generate lists 
based on fragments of a keyword is a very efficient way to manage 
tiddlers.  This is especially true if you set up the list parameters so 
they can be edited quite simply at the top of the generated lists.  The 
result is surprisingly effective and dynamic.

Best regards,
Hans

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Until Tony gets here ...

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 6:29:11 AM UTC-8, S. S. wrote:
>
> I do not have a tiddler named: general-semantics. Instead it is named General 
> Semantics. This is tagged with *definition* & *general-semantics*
> Would you say this is wrong? Should its title be exactly the same as the 
> tag - in all lower-case? Should there be two separate tiddlers, one 
> lower-case, like the tag, one initial-caps like I have now?
>

If you're planning to structure things in a tag tree (e.g. TOC), then you 
need "general-semantics". Remember that if you put "General Semantics" in 
the caption field of "general-semantics" then the TOC macros will use the 
caption value for display. The question is, how do you want to use the 
terms? Who is going to see them? For instance, why not "GeneralSemantics" ?

Re keywords, the main problem with tags is that you can end up with 
tag-space "pollution." Like you may have tag that is only used twice. Is 
this necessary, when you may have more than 50 tags? If you use a key-word 
list field, then you can add new key-words without worrying about 
tag-space. You can periodically review all keywords to see if there are any 
that can be condensed (make spelling match). The downside is that you will 
need a separate search for keywords.


-- Mark

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[S. S.]

Hi Tony,

I've read your post a few times now and I'm still trying to wrap my head 
around all you said.
This is an interesting topic for me, so please indulge me a little longer!

For an example, I have the following tags:

Category: *general-semantics*
Sub-categories: *abstraction* , *e-prime* , *linguistics* , *semiotics* ,* 
time-binding* , etc.
Key-Words: *absolutism* , *elementalism* , *extensional* , *intensional* , 
*multiordinal* , etc.
Group-related: *definition* etc.

An information tiddler that incorporates some of these 
topics/concepts/ideas is now tagged with the Category: *general-semantics* 
& the sub-category: *time-binding* & the key word: *extensional*

There are tiddlers named: intentional &  time-binding - that are both 
tagged with *definition* & *general-semantics. *This is because they 
actually have info about the definition of these terms, but nothing related 
to their being a tag. 

All the sub-category tags should have a tiddler? - that is tagged with 
their parent category: *general-semantics* ( and any other categories they 
may also belong to)? I believe I do this often, though not as a rule.


*?Questions?*
I do not have a tiddler named: general-semantics. Instead it is named General 
Semantics. This is tagged with *definition* & *general-semantics*
Would you say this is wrong? Should its title be exactly the same as the 
tag - in all lower-case? Should there be two separate tiddlers, one 
lower-case, like the tag, one initial-caps like I have now?
 
I (and anyone else using my TW) should then inherently KNOW that the tags 
*general-semantics* refer to a Category, *time-binding* to a Sub-Category, 
and *extensional* is a Key-Word - or we should be able to somehow find 
within the TW this information?

Take the tag *time-binding *for example. Sometimes it is used as a 
sub-category tag, sometimes as a keyword - is that how it should be? What 
do I gain?
How about when it is a sub-category I use *@time-binding* and when it is a 
key-word, I use *#time-binding* ? What do I lose?

Sorry for being so pedantic :(

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[TonyM]

Folks,

I believe I have argued it in the past, but I would like to offer my 
opinion that you should not use prefixes on tags to represent what they 
mean.
 Apart from anything you are breaking database normalisation rules by 
making an attribute of an object be part of the key to the object, what if 
you want to change that attribute,? you loose the key!

More often than not, a tag name is enough to imply its use, if you had the 
tag "urgent" and the tag "Windows" you would possibly guess that urgent is 
a status and Windows is a Operating system.

In the above cases I would have had a tiddler called "priority" which tags 
urgent standard low. It then becomes possible to interrogate all the tags 
on a given tiddler and determine if they are "priority"  tag. 
That is you can use the same tagging mechanism to group tags into 
meaningful groups. The Windows could have the tag OS, this a software title 
could have Windows, Linux, Android tags which are each also tagged OS.

What I think a lot of people miss about tags is they have a particular 
nature, imagine you have a tray of all possible tags sitting on your table, 
and you are packing a box. You can apply zero or more tags to your box as 
required. 

If however you want to categorise the box then you have to ask, can you 
only use existing categories, can a box belong to only one category at a 
time.

Now imagine subjects, perhaps subjects are linked to the category used, you 
can't place a subject on the wrongly categorised item.

Keywords, they may be unlimited in nature but they should first be sourced 
from existing keywords to avoid synonyms being used.

If you consider S S example tag types

   1. tags prefixed $:/ for the TW system
   2. tags for creating "parent-child" relationships - i.e. ordering a 
   Table of Contents
   3. tags for keeping track of excised data for transclusion back into the 
   original
   4. tags for changing style (custom css, display, colour, adding text, 
   triggering a veiw template, etc)
   5. tags for creating groups
   6. tags for categories
   7. tags for keywords
   8. other uses ???

All of the above can be indicated by tagging the "tags tiddler" and may 
need their own handling rules. Although we can use the $:/ prefix for the 
hidden system case. I would even like to see this abstracted away. Such a 
item could be made system hidden with a tag eg "$:/" we would then need 
tiddlywiki to honour this, by removing adding it to the is[system] group, 
or removing it from standard search.

The thing with tagging is they are the most permissive way of organising 
information, so they are the first things we call on to start organising 
tiddlers. If you want a more structured tagging system, less permissive, 
you are no longer really using tags but starting to use them as categories 
etc... Now this is great because you can use tags to do this without 
encoding rules, no need to develop the infrastructure/definition for 
categories just use then as if they were categories. The permissiveness of 
tags allows us to use them to represent all the above "relationships" in an 
ad hoc maner. Greate for design, prototyping and small solutions. 

As I build more complex repositories I move non tags (not the most 
permissive way of organising information) into tag groups, or into another 
field (less complexity). 

Do you understand what I am saying?
I can propose some improvements for handling tags and these other 
relationships but thought it best not to make this reply too long.

Tony






On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 5:12:09 AM UTC+11, Riz wrote:
>
> @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Ciao Riz
>>
>> Some time ago you made for me a neat system (later refined by Mark S.) 
>> which auto-adds tags based on save on IN-LINE words.
>>
>> The specific use-case was I post to #Twitter. Any in-line #hastagged word 
>> would get auto added as a tag to a Tiddler on save. Very neat. For those I 
>> never need to manually add tags.
>>
>> And I think that is part of the issue here in this thread. Efficiency of 
>> use. 
>>
>> TW is unusual that taggery is (1) about many dimensions of usage; (2) 
>> very flexible in practical usage.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Josiah
>>
>
> I am glad it came handy.
>
> sincerely, 
> Riz
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Riz]

@TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao Riz
>
> Some time ago you made for me a neat system (later refined by Mark S.) 
> which auto-adds tags based on save on IN-LINE words.
>
> The specific use-case was I post to #Twitter. Any in-line #hastagged word 
> would get auto added as a tag to a Tiddler on save. Very neat. For those I 
> never need to manually add tags.
>
> And I think that is part of the issue here in this thread. Efficiency of 
> use. 
>
> TW is unusual that taggery is (1) about many dimensions of usage; (2) very 
> flexible in practical usage.
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>

I am glad it came handy.

sincerely, 
Riz

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Caro Bimlas

You recent work on "kin" is very interesting for how to emerge local, wiki 
specific workable TAXONOMIES.

In the root space of taggery history was I think a false debate between 
"flat" taggery (the main system used now on web) and "world-order" 
hierarchy taxonomy... dating back to the Renaissance.

TW is very interesting for enabling either.

What is my take-away message? Simply that you can make local functional 
taxonomies very well without having to deal with Grand Theory about the 
teleology of ultimate classifications. It DOES the job.

Josiah

On Saturday, 15 December 2018 20:30:01 UTC+1, bimlas wrote:
>
> I think that kind of logic is in the wrong direction. Two reasons: 
>
> * unnecessary complexities 
> * your brain does not work that way
>
> Unnecessary complexities
>
> The simpler, the more secure it works, the more straightforward, the more 
> usable. For now, you've listed 6 "tag categories", but in time I'm sure 
> more and more would be exists, it would be harder to keep in mind what 
> prefix to use, so before you apply a tag, you have to look at what mark to 
> use: this would not be a natural, obvious solution.
>
> Your brain does not work that way 
>
> What's the TiddlyWiki? Category? Topic? Keyword? According to this, it is 
> "standing over something," but in fact "subordinated to something" as well. 
> I have encountered many of these dilemmas too, so I was glad to get to know 
> the TiddlyWiki, where I can build the hierarchy of data in a number of ways.
> If we look at the "Notes Manager", the TiddlyWiki is subordinate to the 
> tag; if you look at the description of TiddlyWiki, it might be a 
> "category"; if you look at the list of wikis, it might be a "topic", so, in 
> my opinion, our brains do not explicitly differentiate between "words", but 
> look at their relationship. I think it is more appropriate to make a 
> toc-like hierarchy, or just as AlexHough says: group them into additional 
> tags, so a member (eg TiddlyWiki) can belong to several groups.
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Riz

Some time ago you made for me a neat system (later refined by Mark S.) 
which auto-adds tags based on save on IN-LINE words.

The specific use-case was I post to #Twitter. Any in-line #hastagged word 
would get auto added as a tag to a Tiddler on save. Very neat. For those I 
never need to manually add tags.

And I think that is part of the issue here in this thread. Efficiency of 
use. 

TW is unusual that taggery is (1) about many dimensions of usage; (2) very 
flexible in practical usage.

Best wishes
Josiah

On Sunday, 16 December 2018 10:19:59 UTC+1, Riz wrote:
>
>  S. S. wrote:
>
>>
>> So RANDOMLY - without putting much thought into what symbol to prefix the 
>> tags ...
>>
>> Keywords? How about starting those with : *#my-keyword*
>> Category? How about : *@my-category*
>> Topic? How about: *!topic*
>> Keeping track of excised data?: *^Parent-Tiddler-Name*
>> Groups? perhaps: *%my-group*
>> Styling tags? How about: **my-style*
>>
>> I just started thinking about this recently, so my insights are still in 
>> infancy.
>>
>>
> I like the way this discussion is shaping up. May be a plugin could be 
> written to ignore a set of  characters like "@", "#" etc appearing in the 
> begining of tag pill, so that user can use them safely to denote different 
> branches of their organization system.
>
> sincerely
> Riz
>

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[HansWobbe]

> I like the way this discussion is shaping up. May be a plugin could be 
> written to ignore a set of  characters like "@", "#" etc appearing in the 
> begining of tag pill, so that user can use them safely to denote different 
> branches of their organization system.
>
> sincerely
> Riz
>

It should be possible to use Prefix and Suffix operations to achieve this 
easily.  Effectively this could evolve into a pattern of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigil_(computer_programming) characters that 
might even be embedded in a particular Tag value or the Tittle or Caption, 
or might be given a specific Field.

~Hans

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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Riz]

 S. S. wrote:

>
> So RANDOMLY - without putting much thought into what symbol to prefix the 
> tags ...
>
> Keywords? How about starting those with : *#my-keyword*
> Category? How about : *@my-category*
> Topic? How about: *!topic*
> Keeping track of excised data?: *^Parent-Tiddler-Name*
> Groups? perhaps: *%my-group*
> Styling tags? How about: **my-style*
>
> I just started thinking about this recently, so my insights are still in 
> infancy.
>
>
I like the way this discussion is shaping up. May be a plugin could be 
written to ignore a set of  characters like "@", "#" etc appearing in the 
begining of tag pill, so that user can use them safely to denote different 
branches of their organization system.

sincerely
Riz

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Re: [tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:20 PM UTC-8, S. S. wrote:
>
> Then I started to try and understand what I had meant by the highly broad 
> and abstract terms of "Groups" and "Categories" - which I believe now I 
> just used to make the list as an idea of having many different kinds of 
> prefixes on tags. Anyway, I tried to define them clearly for myself - 
> looked at the structure of my main TW, my Toc, the tags I was using, and 
> also of the folders hierarchy on my hard drive where I keep all my 
> reference files.
>
> I started to write down the answer, and within 10 minutes I was going 
> round in circles. Thus reading bimlas' message made me smile. Perhaps this 
> is not the right way to look at it. 
>
>
I'll take a stab at it.

Groups are arbitrary containers into which we put members by convenience. 
Families are often groups: "John considers that the members of his family 
are himself, his wife, his children, and his dog." At the store, 
"vegetables" is a grouping that everyone understands, but which defies 
rule-based description. Most sports teams are groups of people that may 
have little in common except that they belong to the same team.  

Categories are representations that have an underlying, usually logical, 
theme: Mammals versus Reptiles,   Fruits (botanical) versus Seeds, 
Carnivore vs. Herbivore.

But in terms of TW ... no difference ;-)

-- Mark

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Re: [tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[S. S.]

Thomas Clark wrote:
>
> Can you elaborate on 3,5, & 6? I feel like I understand what you mean but  
> I'm still have a difficult wrapping my head around it and what are the 
> purpose and what would the outcome  be for?
>
>
>
 
Thomas Clark - when I read your question, I immediately wrote the answer 
for 3:

*3) tags for keeping track of excised data for transclusion back into the 
original*

As TonyM explains in Searching Tiddlers with transcluded content 


My understanding is, when you have a main tiddler that brings in smaller 
pieces by transclusion, tagging those smaller pieces with the title of the 
main tiddler keeps a reference point. Then if you do a search at some 
point, and the small tiddler matches the search, but not the main tiddler. 
You open the small tiddler, but it is not really in its proper context - in 
reality you want to see it within its main tiddler. How would you find the 
main tiddler its transcluded into without a reference? If the smaller 
pieces are tagged with the title of the main tiddler - viola!

This is what I understood from TonyM's message. I do think such kind of 
"direct reference" tags (they are like pointers to where the tiddler is 
transcluded) could be differentiated from other tags. In fact, it might 
make more sense to have such "connections maintained" in fields - but 
updating/maintaining fields feels more cumbersome than tags. Plus - when 
renaming a main tiddler title - TW can auto rename the tags in its 
"children." Plus tags are visible.


Then I started to try and understand what I had meant by the highly broad 
and abstract terms of "Groups" and "Categories" - which I believe now I 
just used to make the list as an idea of having many different kinds of 
prefixes on tags. Anyway, I tried to define them clearly for myself - 
looked at the structure of my main TW, my Toc, the tags I was using, and 
also of the folders hierarchy on my hard drive where I keep all my 
reference files.

I started to write down the answer, and within 10 minutes I was going round 
in circles. Thus reading bimlas' message made me smile. Perhaps this is not 
the right way to look at it. 

I will think about it some more.


As for *"what would the outcome  be for?"* ... Since tags are being used 
for different functions, I think I wanted a way to differentiate what 
purpose the tag is being used for - just like the system tags are.


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[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[bimlas]

I think that kind of logic is in the wrong direction. Two reasons: 

* unnecessary complexities 
* your brain does not work that way

Unnecessary complexities

The simpler, the more secure it works, the more straightforward, the more 
usable. For now, you've listed 6 "tag categories", but in time I'm sure 
more and more would be exists, it would be harder to keep in mind what 
prefix to use, so before you apply a tag, you have to look at what mark to 
use: this would not be a natural, obvious solution.

Your brain does not work that way 

What's the TiddlyWiki? Category? Topic? Keyword? According to this, it is 
"standing over something," but in fact "subordinated to something" as well. 
I have encountered many of these dilemmas too, so I was glad to get to know 
the TiddlyWiki, where I can build the hierarchy of data in a number of ways.
If we look at the "Notes Manager", the TiddlyWiki is subordinate to the 
tag; if you look at the description of TiddlyWiki, it might be a 
"category"; if you look at the list of wikis, it might be a "topic", so, in 
my opinion, our brains do not explicitly differentiate between "words", but 
look at their relationship. I think it is more appropriate to make a 
toc-like hierarchy, or just as AlexHough says: group them into additional 
tags, so a member (eg TiddlyWiki) can belong to several groups.

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Re: [tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Thomas Clark]

Can you elaborate on 3,5, & 6? I feel like I understand what you mean but
I'm still have a difficult wrapping my head around it and what are the
purpose and what would the outcome  be for?

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 8:55 AM S. S.  wrote:

>
> While reading various TW Google Group exchanges (some are included below
> that I had noted down), I put down some thoughts the last few days.
>
> For what purposes am I using tags used for?
>
>
>1. tags prefixed $:/ for the TW system
>2. tags for creating "parent-child" relationships - i.e. ordering a
>Table of Contents
>3. tags for keeping track of excised data for transclusion back into
>the original
>4. tags for changing style (custom css, display, colour, adding text,
>triggering a veiw template, etc)
>5. tags for creating groups
>6. tags for categories
>7. tags for keywords
>8. other uses ???
>
>
> What if I start different uses of tags with different prefixes?
> I already prefix system tags because this is how TW is designed with:
> *$:/some/system/tag*
> Table of Content tags are the Title of the parent tiddler - usually no
> prefix
>
> So RANDOMLY - without putting much thought into what symbol to prefix the
> tags ...
>
> Keywords? How about starting those with : *#my-keyword*
> Category? How about : *@my-category*
> Topic? How about: *!topic*
> Keeping track of excised data?: *^Parent-Tiddler-Name*
> Groups? perhaps: *%my-group*
> Styling tags? How about: **my-style*
>
> I just started thinking about this recently, so my insights are still in
> infancy.
>
>
> [Slightly OT] Jeremy speaking at CodeMesh, London 8/9th November 2018
>   -
> the whole fascinating discussion - and of course the video it refers to: Joe
> Armstrong & Jeremy Ruston - Intertwingling the Tiddlywiki with Erlang |
> Code Mesh LDN 18
> 
>
> In this fascinating discussion we had:
>
> TiddlyTweeter
>  :
> TW is interesting because its tags serve several functions (semantic,
> organizational, systemic) seamlessly.
>
> But, at the same time, any TW tag is a "label applied" to a tiddler -- a
> distance between the tiddler and its manifest content.
>
> FYI I'm a big fan of Twiitter where #hashtags are always inline. No
> separation of content from organization. Its a neat approach on content
> cognisance. Twitter is maybe extreme in its #hashtaggery but its effective
> in terms of finding stuff well enough. But, of course, Twitter usage of
> #hashtags is purely about flagging content, whilst in TW tags do several
> jobs.
>
> Joe Armstrong
>  -
> YES :-)  -- Given my earlier observations, perhapse we could distinguish
> two types of tags. The #inlineHashTags could have something to do with the
> content of the containing paragraph. The tiddler tags could mean "tags used
> to internally organise the TW itself"
>
> TonyM
>   -
> The simple act of ignoring tags prefixed $:/ is enough to keep system tags
> out of your models.
>
> PMario
>  -
> Both of those systems [Table of Contents & list-links] (mis)use tags to
> create internal structure, because the tagging mechanism was and is highly
> optimized. Both in the core-software and the UI. The core uses several
> caches to speed up tag and "backlink" lookups. ... We do have fields and
> filters, that are able to create invisible internal structure. But none of
> those possibilities offer the performance and "ease of use" from the UI
> perspective.
>
> --
>
> TonyM - Searching Tiddlers with transcluded content
> 
>
> Especially when it comes to intrinsically related data, I tend to start
> with a body of text and excise it, into our partial-tiddler(s) not only
> will the excise replace it but It also tags the new tiddler with the title
> of where is was excised from.
>
> Thus if I was to search for something and it is found in a particular
> tiddler, then what that tiddler is tagged with is likely where I will find
> it transcluded as well.
>
> --
>
> Jed's Generic Tag Fields
> 
>
> --
> Mark S. How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then
> transclude them?
> 
>
>  I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so
> they can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections,
> and I think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't.
> The old 

[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[@TiddlyTweeter]

S. S.

That is a great overview that contextualises a lot more than my OP!

Best wishes
Josiah

On Saturday, 15 December 2018 14:55:39 UTC+1, S. S. wrote:
>
>
> While reading various TW Google Group exchanges (some are included below 
> that I had noted down), I put down some thoughts the last few days.
>
> For what purposes am I using tags used for?
>
>
>1. tags prefixed $:/ for the TW system
>2. tags for creating "parent-child" relationships - i.e. ordering a 
>Table of Contents
>3. tags for keeping track of excised data for transclusion back into 
>the original
>4. tags for changing style (custom css, display, colour, adding text, 
>triggering a veiw template, etc)
>5. tags for creating groups
>6. tags for categories
>7. tags for keywords
>8. other uses ???
>
>
> What if I start different uses of tags with different prefixes?
> I already prefix system tags because this is how TW is designed with: 
> *$:/some/system/tag*
> Table of Content tags are the Title of the parent tiddler - usually no 
> prefix
>
> So RANDOMLY - without putting much thought into what symbol to prefix the 
> tags ...
>
> Keywords? How about starting those with : *#my-keyword*
> Category? How about : *@my-category*
> Topic? How about: *!topic*
> Keeping track of excised data?: *^Parent-Tiddler-Name*
> Groups? perhaps: *%my-group*
> Styling tags? How about: **my-style*
>
> I just started thinking about this recently, so my insights are still in 
> infancy.
>
>
> [Slightly OT] Jeremy speaking at CodeMesh, London 8/9th November 2018 
>   - 
> the whole fascinating discussion - and of course the video it refers to: Joe 
> Armstrong & Jeremy Ruston - Intertwingling the Tiddlywiki with Erlang | 
> Code Mesh LDN 18 
> 
>  
> In this fascinating discussion we had: 
>
> TiddlyTweeter 
>  : 
> TW is interesting because its tags serve several functions (semantic, 
> organizational, systemic) seamlessly.
>
> But, at the same time, any TW tag is a "label applied" to a tiddler -- a 
> distance between the tiddler and its manifest content.
>
> FYI I'm a big fan of Twiitter where #hashtags are always inline. No 
> separation of content from organization. Its a neat approach on content 
> cognisance. Twitter is maybe extreme in its #hashtaggery but its effective 
> in terms of finding stuff well enough. But, of course, Twitter usage of 
> #hashtags is purely about flagging content, whilst in TW tags do several 
> jobs.
>
> Joe Armstrong 
>  - 
> YES :-)  -- Given my earlier observations, perhapse we could distinguish 
> two types of tags. The #inlineHashTags could have something to do with the 
> content of the containing paragraph. The tiddler tags could mean "tags used 
> to internally organise the TW itself"
>
> TonyM 
>   - 
> The simple act of ignoring tags prefixed $:/ is enough to keep system tags 
> out of your models.
>
> PMario 
>  - 
> Both of those systems [Table of Contents & list-links] (mis)use tags to 
> create internal structure, because the tagging mechanism was and is highly 
> optimized. Both in the core-software and the UI. The core uses several 
> caches to speed up tag and "backlink" lookups. ... We do have fields and 
> filters, that are able to create invisible internal structure. But none of 
> those possibilities offer the performance and "ease of use" from the UI 
> perspective. 
>
> --
>
> TonyM - Searching Tiddlers with transcluded content 
>  
>
> Especially when it comes to intrinsically related data, I tend to start 
> with a body of text and excise it, into our partial-tiddler(s) not only 
> will the excise replace it but It also tags the new tiddler with the title 
> of where is was excised from.
>
> Thus if I was to search for something and it is found in a particular 
> tiddler, then what that tiddler is tagged with is likely where I will find 
> it transcluded as well.
>
> --
>
> Jed's Generic Tag Fields 
>  
>
> --
> Mark S. How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then 
> transclude them? 
> 
>
>  I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so 
> they can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections, 
> and I think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't. 
> The old system works the 

Re: [tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Alex

Being able to tag tiddlers that are the tag (name) is useful.

The "free-form" way we can make tags is interesting in TW for the fact you 
can quickly  construct "dynamic local taxonomies" using tag-tagging and 
other aglutination methods easily. Its taggery is quite unlike medium like 
Twitter where all tags are intrinsically always "flat".

At end I'd say, philosophically, TW, whether by accident or design, has 
turned out suitably practically agnostic on Taggery .. you can take it many 
routes to great effect.

Josiah

On Saturday, 15 December 2018 15:10:29 UTC+1, AlexHough wrote:
>
> tagging the tag is an option to classify a particular tag... thinking out 
> loud...
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[Alex Hough]

tagging the tag is an option to classify a particular tag... thinking out
loud...

Alex

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 at 13:55, S. S.  wrote:

>
> While reading various TW Google Group exchanges (some are included below
> that I had noted down), I put down some thoughts the last few days.
>
> For what purposes am I using tags used for?
>
>
>1. tags prefixed $:/ for the TW system
>2. tags for creating "parent-child" relationships - i.e. ordering a
>Table of Contents
>3. tags for keeping track of excised data for transclusion back into
>the original
>4. tags for changing style (custom css, display, colour, adding text,
>triggering a veiw template, etc)
>5. tags for creating groups
>6. tags for categories
>7. tags for keywords
>8. other uses ???
>
>
> What if I start different uses of tags with different prefixes?
> I already prefix system tags because this is how TW is designed with:
> *$:/some/system/tag*
> Table of Content tags are the Title of the parent tiddler - usually no
> prefix
>
> So RANDOMLY - without putting much thought into what symbol to prefix the
> tags ...
>
> Keywords? How about starting those with : *#my-keyword*
> Category? How about : *@my-category*
> Topic? How about: *!topic*
> Keeping track of excised data?: *^Parent-Tiddler-Name*
> Groups? perhaps: *%my-group*
> Styling tags? How about: **my-style*
>
> I just started thinking about this recently, so my insights are still in
> infancy.
>
>
> [Slightly OT] Jeremy speaking at CodeMesh, London 8/9th November 2018
>   -
> the whole fascinating discussion - and of course the video it refers to: Joe
> Armstrong & Jeremy Ruston - Intertwingling the Tiddlywiki with Erlang |
> Code Mesh LDN 18
> 
>
> In this fascinating discussion we had:
>
> TiddlyTweeter
>  :
> TW is interesting because its tags serve several functions (semantic,
> organizational, systemic) seamlessly.
>
> But, at the same time, any TW tag is a "label applied" to a tiddler -- a
> distance between the tiddler and its manifest content.
>
> FYI I'm a big fan of Twiitter where #hashtags are always inline. No
> separation of content from organization. Its a neat approach on content
> cognisance. Twitter is maybe extreme in its #hashtaggery but its effective
> in terms of finding stuff well enough. But, of course, Twitter usage of
> #hashtags is purely about flagging content, whilst in TW tags do several
> jobs.
>
> Joe Armstrong
>  -
> YES :-)  -- Given my earlier observations, perhapse we could distinguish
> two types of tags. The #inlineHashTags could have something to do with the
> content of the containing paragraph. The tiddler tags could mean "tags used
> to internally organise the TW itself"
>
> TonyM
>   -
> The simple act of ignoring tags prefixed $:/ is enough to keep system tags
> out of your models.
>
> PMario
>  -
> Both of those systems [Table of Contents & list-links] (mis)use tags to
> create internal structure, because the tagging mechanism was and is highly
> optimized. Both in the core-software and the UI. The core uses several
> caches to speed up tag and "backlink" lookups. ... We do have fields and
> filters, that are able to create invisible internal structure. But none of
> those possibilities offer the performance and "ease of use" from the UI
> perspective.
>
> --
>
> TonyM - Searching Tiddlers with transcluded content
> 
>
> Especially when it comes to intrinsically related data, I tend to start
> with a body of text and excise it, into our partial-tiddler(s) not only
> will the excise replace it but It also tags the new tiddler with the title
> of where is was excised from.
>
> Thus if I was to search for something and it is found in a particular
> tiddler, then what that tiddler is tagged with is likely where I will find
> it transcluded as well.
>
> --
>
> Jed's Generic Tag Fields
> 
>
> --
> Mark S. How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then
> transclude them?
> 
>
>  I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so
> they can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections,
> and I think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't.
> The old system works the way people actually think.
>
> It might be different if there were better tools for 

[tw5] Re: Tagging --- Organise From Serendipity

[S. S.]

While reading various TW Google Group exchanges (some are included below 
that I had noted down), I put down some thoughts the last few days.

For what purposes am I using tags used for?


   1. tags prefixed $:/ for the TW system
   2. tags for creating "parent-child" relationships - i.e. ordering a 
   Table of Contents
   3. tags for keeping track of excised data for transclusion back into the 
   original
   4. tags for changing style (custom css, display, colour, adding text, 
   triggering a veiw template, etc)
   5. tags for creating groups
   6. tags for categories
   7. tags for keywords
   8. other uses ???
   

What if I start different uses of tags with different prefixes?
I already prefix system tags because this is how TW is designed with: 
*$:/some/system/tag*
Table of Content tags are the Title of the parent tiddler - usually no 
prefix

So RANDOMLY - without putting much thought into what symbol to prefix the 
tags ...

Keywords? How about starting those with : *#my-keyword*
Category? How about : *@my-category*
Topic? How about: *!topic*
Keeping track of excised data?: *^Parent-Tiddler-Name*
Groups? perhaps: *%my-group*
Styling tags? How about: **my-style*

I just started thinking about this recently, so my insights are still in 
infancy.


[Slightly OT] Jeremy speaking at CodeMesh, London 8/9th November 2018 
  - 
the whole fascinating discussion - and of course the video it refers to: Joe 
Armstrong & Jeremy Ruston - Intertwingling the Tiddlywiki with Erlang | 
Code Mesh LDN 18 

 
In this fascinating discussion we had: 

TiddlyTweeter 
 : TW 
is interesting because its tags serve several functions (semantic, 
organizational, systemic) seamlessly.

But, at the same time, any TW tag is a "label applied" to a tiddler -- a 
distance between the tiddler and its manifest content.

FYI I'm a big fan of Twiitter where #hashtags are always inline. No 
separation of content from organization. Its a neat approach on content 
cognisance. Twitter is maybe extreme in its #hashtaggery but its effective 
in terms of finding stuff well enough. But, of course, Twitter usage of 
#hashtags is purely about flagging content, whilst in TW tags do several 
jobs.

Joe Armstrong 
 - YES 
:-)  -- Given my earlier observations, perhapse we could distinguish two 
types of tags. The #inlineHashTags could have something to do with the 
content of the containing paragraph. The tiddler tags could mean "tags used 
to internally organise the TW itself"

TonyM   
- The simple act of ignoring tags prefixed $:/ is enough to keep system 
tags out of your models.

PMario  
- Both of those systems [Table of Contents & list-links] (mis)use tags to 
create internal structure, because the tagging mechanism was and is highly 
optimized. Both in the core-software and the UI. The core uses several 
caches to speed up tag and "backlink" lookups. ... We do have fields and 
filters, that are able to create invisible internal structure. But none of 
those possibilities offer the performance and "ease of use" from the UI 
perspective. 

--

TonyM - Searching Tiddlers with transcluded content 
 

Especially when it comes to intrinsically related data, I tend to start 
with a body of text and excise it, into our partial-tiddler(s) not only 
will the excise replace it but It also tags the new tiddler with the title 
of where is was excised from.

Thus if I was to search for something and it is found in a particular 
tiddler, then what that tiddler is tagged with is likely where I will find 
it transcluded as well.

--

Jed's Generic Tag Fields 
 

--
Mark S. How to tag separate paragraphs in different tiddlers and then 
transclude them? 


 I don't think most people want to wrangle 20+ little tiddlers just so they 
can access one section inside an article. The old TWC had sections, and I 
think a lot of us were flabbergasted that the "improved" TW5 didn't. The 
old system works the way people actually think.

It might be different if there were better tools for moving, annotating, 
deleting, and ordering small tiddlers, but there's not. How do you list a 
bunch of tiddlers, keep them in order, move them around, without having to 
open individual tiddlers to modify a sort field? Or create a massive list 
field in a Tagging tiddler -- working