RE: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
Sorry man, I can't make a really good flame war when I agree with Jon. But there is still hope: we still flame each other from time to time (even if on other lists). Nothing as blazing than that one you remember, but still... =:o) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Christopher Cain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 6:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Velocity and JSP speed testing... Totally OT, bandwidth-wasting, irrelevant musings P.S. ... Where did that Paulo Gaspar cat go? That guy was always interesting in a flame war, especially with Jon involved. Man ... dude did NOT like Jon, but he sure loved Velocity. I wonder he went ... I really miss those days, back when we were all so young and innocent ... it was a simpler time ;-) Anyway, Jon, I always thought that you should have used some of those flame posts from Gaspar for some really sweet Velocity advocacy, maybe in your mag articles and web site and stuff. I can hardly think of a more compelling advertisement for Velocity than one of those, Jon is in insufferable ass, but I wouldn't use any other solution than Velocity. That speaks volumes. I really do miss that Gaspar guy though ... we liked him :-) - Christopher
RE: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
He is over on the Velocity lists being a pain in the ass still. :-) I just love him. I love you too Jon. Our last flame war was about me wanting to get rid of the dynamic logging in Velocity and just make a dependency on Log4J. Eventually, I think he just gave up. Now that Ceki has the 25k .jar file, it is no contest. Yes, after a few servings of Jon's usual delicate approach, Jason van Zyl made a single post where he made sense of it all. Sometimes Jon is right - he just has some trouble explaining it. (He tends to explode something in the process.) =;o) Have fun, Paulo -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 6:31 AM on 8/6/01 9:24 PM, Christopher Cain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Totally OT, bandwidth-wasting, irrelevant musings P.S. ... Where did that Paulo Gaspar cat go? That guy was always interesting in a flame war, especially with Jon involved. Man ... dude did NOT like Jon, but he sure loved Velocity. I wonder he went ... I really miss those days, back when we were all so young and innocent ... it was a simpler time ;-) Anyway, Jon, I always thought that you should have used some of those flame posts from Gaspar for some really sweet Velocity advocacy, maybe in your mag articles and web site and stuff. I can hardly think of a more compelling advertisement for Velocity than one of those, Jon is in insufferable ass, but I wouldn't use any other solution than Velocity. That speaks volumes. I really do miss that Gaspar guy though ... we liked him :-) - Christopher He is over on the Velocity lists being a pain in the ass still. :-) I just love him. Our last flame war was about me wanting to get rid of the dynamic logging in Velocity and just make a dependency on Log4J. Eventually, I think he just gave up. Now that Ceki has the 25k .jar file, it is no contest. :-) p.s. Below is a recent privately sent email that I got about the JDJ article I wrote...name/company removed to protect this fine enlightened individual. :-) -jon
RE: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
Quoting Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sorry man, I can't make a really good flame war when I agree with Jon. That's okay, buddy. You're back, and that's the important thing. We missed you is all ;-) - Christopher
FW: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
Not exactly scientific, but I do trust Rickard to do things correctly...he has an existing JSP page for testing and then converted it to Velocity...here are the results... JSP - 240-480ms Velocity - 50-70ms You make the decision. :-) -jon -- Forwarded Message From: Rickard Öberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:41:37 +0200 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Webwork-User [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Velocity monthlist Rickard Öberg wrote: Ok guys, this is latest(-ish) Catalina sources. I tried hitting the page a couple of hundred times before checking the time, and it stabilized at scores around 50-70ms. So, that's like, 6 times faster than the same JSP running on Tomcat 3.2. And the VM was direct converted, almost line by line, since the WebWork taglib is very similar to the Velocity directives, so it's a quite fair comparison. And to make this comparison even more fair, I just tested the JSP page on the same Catalina build, and it scored between 240-480ms. So, not only is it slower, it is more fluctuating (and I also think I dare say that the JSP taglib in WebWork is as optimized as it can be). Interesting... /Rickard -- Rickard Öberg Software Development Specialist xlurc - Xpedio Linköping Ubiquitous Research Center Author of Mastering RMI Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- End of Forwarded Message
Re: FW: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: Not exactly scientific, but I do trust Rickard to do things correctly...he has an existing JSP page for testing and then converted it to Velocity...here are the results... JSP - 240-480ms Velocity - 50-70ms Frankly, I'm astounded it took you so long to figure out that you had a legitimate case on performance ... at least versus Jasper :-). Try this on some other containers and you will find different results. Orion, Resin, and WebLogic are supposed to have pretty fast implementations. You make the decision. :-) I did ... the code that Jasper generates is not optimized at all, so doing a decent optimizing compiler will make a pretty dramatic difference. Watch this space. :-) -jon Craig (who is actually quite happy with Catalina at this point :-)
Re: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
Craig R. McClanahan at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -jon Craig (who is actually quite happy with Catalina at this point :-) Never been a fan of JSPs myself, but seeing Velocity (lately I had to install it for EyeBrowse on Nagoya, and it was painful) I'm not a big fan of that thing either. But anyway, coming out of the blue on that, I'm pretty damn tired of this whole argument about Velocity VS. JSPs thing... Tomcat IS the R.I. for Servlets AND JSPs, that's what we agreed on with Sun from the very first time, that's what I keep believing into. So, please, both of you (yeah, I'm going to say shut up to my project lead) SHUT UP. I don't give a damn on which one is faster/better. We're here to talk about the development of one product. If you were new users being moderated I would reject your postings as OFF-TOPIC. Especially you, Jon. Damn it, we've walked this path together for a very long time. And _as_a_friend_ I'm begging you, if you want to keep going on with your crusade against JSPs do it, but be wise enough to do it in the right places... Thanks... Pier
Re: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
on 8/6/01 7:45 PM, Pier P. Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never been a fan of JSPs myself, but seeing Velocity (lately I had to install it for EyeBrowse on Nagoya, and it was painful) I'm not a big fan of that thing either. Installation != Use Remember the old JServ 1.0 days when it *sucked* to install it, but it was still pretty damn good software that *you* were proud of? :-) Especially you, Jon. Damn it, we've walked this path together for a very long time. And _as_a_friend_ I'm begging you, if you want to keep going on with your crusade against JSPs do it, but be wise enough to do it in the right places... Sorry Pier. I think that performance testing and results of Tomcat 4.0 is perfectly legal here. Especially in the context of competition with JSP. Lets not fool our users into thinking that the ASF is producing the fastest JSP implementation. Oh wait. That's obvious. :-) The fact that I throw in quips about how JSP sucks balls is my own gibberish that you are just going to have to put up with. Sorry. :-) -jon
Re: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
on 8/6/01 7:18 PM, Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 6 Aug 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: Not exactly scientific, but I do trust Rickard to do things correctly...he has an existing JSP page for testing and then converted it to Velocity...here are the results... JSP - 240-480ms Velocity - 50-70ms Frankly, I'm astounded it took you so long to figure out that you had a legitimate case on performance ... at least versus Jasper :-). It wasn't my posting. I was forwarding another posting. So, the you should be directed at the original poster. That said, the previous results that I had achieved were a quite bit closer than those though. The above is pretty astounding. Try this on some other containers and you will find different results. Orion, Resin, and WebLogic are supposed to have pretty fast implementations. Rickard did. Velocity was either on par or faster. Read the Velocity-dev archives. I did ... the code that Jasper generates is not optimized at all, so doing a decent optimizing compiler will make a pretty dramatic difference. Watch this space. :-) Ok. Craig (who is actually quite happy with Catalina at this point :-) I'm pretty happy with the container. Jasper still sucks...regardless of it being a JSP implementation. :-) p.s. Even though Tomcat is supposed to be more concerned with the R.I. status, people are using it for more than that and are depending on it. *I think* it is ludicrous to assume otherwise as well as to force people to purchase commercial implementations in order to get a decently performing engine. -jon
Re: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
Craig R. McClanahan at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -jon Craig (who is actually quite happy with Catalina at this point :-) Never been a fan of JSPs myself, but seeing Velocity (lately I had to install it for EyeBrowse on Nagoya, and it was painful) I'm not a big fan of that thing either. But anyway, coming out of the blue on that, I'm pretty damn tired of this whole argument about Velocity VS. JSPs thing... Tomcat IS the R.I. for Servlets AND JSPs, that's what we agreed on with Sun from the very first time, that's what I keep believing into. So, please, both of you (yeah, I'm going to say shut up to my project lead) SHUT UP. Behave ;-) I don't give a damn on which one is faster/better. We're here to talk about the development of one product. If you were new users being moderated I would reject your postings as OFF-TOPIC. I don't really agree in general, although here Jon's post is not very useful, since there are no details at all on the benchmark. At least, we can use that as a motivation to improve Jasper so we don't look as bad ;-) Remy
Re: FW: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
When I switched my projects from JSP to Velocity, I did it more for: - simplicity of the language (VTL) - taking away (from web designers) the power to write/execute Java directly but if it's fast as well, even better :-) Bojan PS. It does take longer to get the first page. Velocity has to start and all... Jon Stevens wrote: Not exactly scientific, but I do trust Rickard to do things correctly...he has an existing JSP page for testing and then converted it to Velocity...here are the results... JSP - 240-480ms Velocity - 50-70ms You make the decision. :-) -jon -- Forwarded Message From: Rickard Öberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:41:37 +0200 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Webwork-User [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Velocity monthlist Rickard Öberg wrote: Ok guys, this is latest(-ish) Catalina sources. I tried hitting the page a couple of hundred times before checking the time, and it stabilized at scores around 50-70ms. So, that's like, 6 times faster than the same JSP running on Tomcat 3.2. And the VM was direct converted, almost line by line, since the WebWork taglib is very similar to the Velocity directives, so it's a quite fair comparison. And to make this comparison even more fair, I just tested the JSP page on the same Catalina build, and it scored between 240-480ms. So, not only is it slower, it is more fluctuating (and I also think I dare say that the JSP taglib in WebWork is as optimized as it can be). Interesting... /Rickard -- Rickard Öberg Software Development Specialist xlurc - Xpedio Linköping Ubiquitous Research Center Author of Mastering RMI Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- End of Forwarded Message
Re: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
Totally OT, bandwidth-wasting, irrelevant musings P.S. ... Where did that Paulo Gaspar cat go? That guy was always interesting in a flame war, especially with Jon involved. Man ... dude did NOT like Jon, but he sure loved Velocity. I wonder he went ... I really miss those days, back when we were all so young and innocent ... it was a simpler time ;-) Anyway, Jon, I always thought that you should have used some of those flame posts from Gaspar for some really sweet Velocity advocacy, maybe in your mag articles and web site and stuff. I can hardly think of a more compelling advertisement for Velocity than one of those, Jon is in insufferable ass, but I wouldn't use any other solution than Velocity. That speaks volumes. I really do miss that Gaspar guy though ... we liked him :-) - Christopher
Re: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
on 8/6/01 9:24 PM, Christopher Cain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Totally OT, bandwidth-wasting, irrelevant musings P.S. ...
Where did that Paulo Gaspar cat go? That guy was always interesting in a flame
war, especially with Jon involved. Man ... dude did NOT like Jon, but he sure
loved Velocity. I wonder he went ... I really miss those days, back when we
were all so young and innocent ... it was a simpler time ;-)
Anyway, Jon, I always thought that you should have used some of those flame
posts from Gaspar for some really sweet Velocity advocacy, maybe in your mag
articles and web site and stuff. I can hardly think of a more compelling
advertisement for Velocity than one of those, Jon is in insufferable ass, but
I wouldn't use any other solution than Velocity. That speaks volumes.
I really do miss that Gaspar guy though ... we liked him :-)
- Christopher
He is over on the Velocity lists being a pain in the ass still. :-)
I just love him.
Our last flame war was about me wanting to get rid of the dynamic logging in
Velocity and just make a dependency on Log4J. Eventually, I think he just
gave up. Now that Ceki has the 25k .jar file, it is no contest.
:-)
p.s. Below is a recent privately sent email that I got about the JDJ article
I wrote...name/company removed to protect this fine enlightened individual.
:-)
-jon
Dear Jon,
I have just finished reading your article evaluating JSP in the July issue
of Java Developers Journal. Thank you for your very thoughtful analysis of
JSP and the use of alternatives. My company does not use Velocity, but we
could have written this article years ago. Our team consists of four
people who are all Java programmers. Three years ago when everybody else
was just doing out.print lines from servlets, we saw the need for a
template based approached to embedding reusable code elements in HTML
pages. So we wrote a template parsing engine that takes in an HTML page,
parses out tags that look like {%PAGE_VAL namedThis%} and outputs a
page. The servlet code handles everything a web application ever needs
such as database connections, SQL, math, array handling, user objects,
caching, etc. and the templates themselves act in a consequence free
environment where all errors are caught and simply explained back to the
designer or user. When a client's project demands custom code, we simple
extend the basic tag parsing engine and code the processing of the custom
tag elements.
We built this architecture for convenience and because there was nothing
like available at at the time. But throughout the emergence of JSP 1.1, we
have looked to migrate away from our home grown solution to move to a more
industry standard solution for our clients. The problem is the closer we
get to developing in JSP, the more we started to really hate it. We hate it
for all of the reasons you describe in your article. I think one of your
best points is how JSP is really only a solution for Java
programmers. That being said, we are a team of all Java programmers, and
we are still running screaming away from it. As much as we enjoy writing
code, we don't want a line of it inside our HTML pages.
Thank you very much for thinking outside the JSP box, and helping us
justify the techniques we believe are best for ourselves and our clients.
