RE: We need a web based Forum!
Kevin (u2ug Board Member) posted this on the u2ug web site: When I do read u2-users it is though gmane.org (http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.db.u2.general/), so I know that there are a number of different ways to skin each cat. The reason I use Gmane is that I don't have time each day to wade through th daily postings, Gmane allows me to see the history or a thread (as well as view each topic in a thread) and allows me to choose when I read the list. I also subscribe to the digest, but due to the in-ability of some listers to trim I find it tough to use. Those are the reasons that I am fan of forums, but I support the board and will do what I am told! :) I'll take a look at the m2f stuff and see if it will work. I do see on their forums that there are people who have made it work with pnPHPbb (which is what we use) but it is clear that we are talking about beta software at best. If it does seem that the stuff will work it would still require a re-think of the current list, and so I wouldn't be able to offer it for u2-users until the board was convinced that it would work best for the majority, or that it wouldn't somehow weaken the current list. The gmane.org link above I can certainly recommend having just had a look! no more wading through the digest for me anymore and I can check it any time of the day when I want to. A couple of other posts recommend I look at the feasibility of the m2f stuff, however obviously it is really up to the u2ug Board who will be taking over the list, what technology they want to use etc. I would certainly be willing to help out in any way if they want to follow this up. James Sungard -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
Seems to me a system where *email (the list) carries on as usual *All emailed responses are submitted as forum responses *All forum responses are whooshed out to the list as email I would whole-heartedly agree with this. BUT I have never seen such an animal in action myself. I think it's mythical. Will I have certainly been involved in usenet newsgroups that are linked in this way. I gave an example in previous emails. It has been developed for forums too, as per my email below, which no one to date has commented on. Admittedly it is currently in beta, but the forum system it is available on phpBB is very widely used and respected. E.g. the MQseries forum, that I use all the time - http://www.mqseries.net/phpBB2/index.php uses phpBB. So will the U2 user group, like to look at this solution? This would give us both a web and mail list presence and would make ALL of us happy. It will also show that this community is happy to embrace new technology when it gives benefits (explained below). James Hogan Sungard -Original Message- From: Hogan, James Sent: 22 April 2004 09:38 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! I think I have found the holy grail! http://m2f.sourceforge.net/ Mail 2 Forum joins two separate worlds of internet based communication together. Until now, the phpBB web based bulletin board or forum systems existed completely separately and isolated from existing email based mailing list or list serve systems. Each system operated independently. Separately, each system has its own advantages and disadvantages. Electronic mailing lists are very simple and convenient for the end user, no harder than using the email he or she already uses. The disadvantage is there is little history or organization of past discussions. Emails tend to get lost in time and an email's content is only available to the original recipients. While some lists servers have the ability to keep a history or archive the email messages, the archiving is usually non-intelligent and non-categorized leaving the user with a mess of unorganized messages. Additionally, archiving is only uni-directional, meaning you may only go back and view the archives. At the same time web based forums like phpBB are very well suited for organized bi-directional discussion. Users may view or contribute to a subject by posting to a new or existing thread of information in any category now or in the future. Unfortunately, this requires the user to use the web based interface, for some this may be less convenient than email. Although, web based forums and email list serves both have the common purpose of communication, each system achieves this very differently. The purpose of Mail 2 Forum is to overlap the functionality of both forum systems and mailing list systems. Mail 2 Forum gives the user the best of both worlds. The initial release of Mail 2 Forum will include the following features... Integrates with phpBB (bulletin board/forum software) Allows posting to a phpBB forum via an email. Allows a copy of a phpBB forum messages to be delivered via email. Bidirectional communication is intelligently routed to or from appropriate forum/thread based on content. Users may subscribe/unsubscribe to mailing lists via the phpBB interface or via email. May be managed via the phpBB interface. May be used as a new mailing list server/manager May be used as mailing list manager with an existing mailing list server (like listserv or majordomo) Can synchronize with multiple email systems (sendmail, .forward, read files, read IMAP and POP3) Simple to use and administer. Secure and Anti spam features (uses phpbb security features) Open source code under GNU/GPL license. James Hogan -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
Two ideas, not entirely original: 1) The techie in me says It would be an interesting project to create the e-mail and web interfaces described in an MV system. (What a concept, a database for massive amounts of structured data...) It wouldn't have the bells and whistles of established e-mail listservers (for a while anyway), nor of established web forums, but it would be possible to store the data in an MV environment which then populates one of the standard web forum software packages through an API, or a web interface can be written. 2) The more practical side of me says: There is a comp.databases.Pick and a comp.databases.Revelation (which isn't used), and comp.databases.ibm-db2. Maybe it's time for comp.databases.ibm-u2.tech and comp.databases.ibm-u2.misc? I believe this has been alluded to by Kevin Zollinger, James Hogan, and Dawn Wolthuis, to some extent. Personally I don't like e-mail forums. I prefer Usenet where Google can do the archiving and I can use real news software to track threaded discussions. Usenet can be browsed with e-mail, web browser, _and_ a real Usenet reader. It's also pull technology. E-mail is pull technology to an extent as well, but it's more push technology because it pushes itself into the e-mail queue. I think the only reason people won't like this is that a lot of people don't understand what Usenet is, and they won't want to get a new reader. Well folks, e-mail was never designed for this sort of thing, Usenet was. Another change that would need to be made is that people will have to learn to stop posting real e-mail addresses and URLs. You can post what you want to Usenet but harvesting programs WILL create spam for every address made available to the public. To curb some of the issues, a private server can be setup, available by registration and login only, but since it's so easy to register to the list I can see spammers registering to a private server as soon as they find it. Tony I wrote a Usenet client in D3, after that, anything is possible. :) James Hogan wrote: Seems to me a system where *email (the list) carries on as usual *All emailed responses are submitted as forum responses *All forum responses are whooshed out to the list as email I would whole-heartedly agree with this. BUT I have never seen such an animal in action myself. I think it's mythical. Will I have certainly been involved in usenet newsgroups that are linked in this way. I gave an example in previous emails. It has been developed for forums too, as per my email below, which no one to date has commented on. [snip] -Original Message- [snip Mail 2 Forum info] -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
I think I have found the holy grail! Mr Hogan, Sir I do believe you have it... -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
Branching from your idea: Funny thing, last week two of us were discussing what a terrible job our company's spam/virus filter was doing, and concluded it's exactly the kind of thing MV does best, if only there was a true email interface. On top of that, many of us have had to make hacks to execute blat/elm/sendmail (we just redid ours to add support for priority, Cc:, return request, etc.) Native U2 email support (POP and SMTP) would certainly make this a possibility, and (re: the originial issue) the data could also be served up forum-style through UniObjects/UoJ (unless, as you and others suggest, someone went further and made web interfaces as well). Anyway, sounds like adding this would introduce a viable business opportunity - lots of places want small-footprint, low-maintenance email filters. AFAICS each site wouldn't take more than a couple of user licenses as well. Happy musing, David Beahm Tony Gravagno wrote: Two ideas, not entirely original: 1) The techie in me says It would be an interesting project to create the e-mail and web interfaces described in an MV system. (What a concept, a database for massive amounts of structured data...) It wouldn't have the bells and whistles of established e-mail listservers (for a while anyway), nor of established web forums, but it would be possible to store the data in an MV environment which then populates one of the standard web forum software packages through an API, or a web interface can be written. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
OT RE: We need a web based Forum!
I would whole-heartedly agree with this. BUT I have never seen such an animal in action myself. I think it's mythical. Will It is not mythical, one of the forums I use works exactly like that. You do have to be set up as a user and subscribe to the forums you want to read. But after that, emails show up on the forum, and anything posted to the forum goes out via email. (It even puts a cute little postmark on the message if you view it on the web page, to show it was posted via email.) A quick look says that the forum software is... O'Reilly WebBoard 4.20.82 (c)1995-2000 Duke Engineering/O'Reilly Associates, Inc. WebBoard is a trademark of O'Reilly Associates, Inc. -- Wendy Smoak Application Systems Analyst, Sr. ASU IA Information Resources Management -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
In a message dated 4/23/2004 4:16:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So will the U2 user group, like to look at this solution? This would give us both a web and mail list presence and would make ALL of us happy. It will also show that this community is happy to embrace new technology when it gives benefits (explained below). James Hogan Sungard I move that we nominate James to investigate this possibility further, including testing this beta software and report back on its feasibility. Do I have a second? Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
Will, I'm always happy to nominate someone else to do work. :) I second Will's motion. - Charles Where There's a Will... Barouch -- Original Message - Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:46:44 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (U2 Users Discussion List) In a message dated 4/23/2004 4:16:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So will the U2 user group, like to look at this solution? This would give us both a web and mail list presence and would make ALL of us happy. It will also show that this community is happy to embrace new technology when it gives benefits (explained below). James Hogan Sungard I move that we nominate James to investigate this possibility further, including testing this beta software and report back on its feasibility. Do I have a second? Will -- Get Results from KeyAlly.com Rely on Key Ally www.KeyAlly.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: OT RE: We need a web based Forum!
In a message dated 4/23/2004 11:32:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would whole-heartedly agree with this. BUT I have never seen such an animal in action myself. I think it's mythical. Will It is not mythical, one of the forums I use works exactly like that. I'm a show-me kind-of-guy, so name the forum or post a link so we can all see that it works that way :) Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: RE: We need a web based Forum!
It's been pointed out to me that my request for another position might have been taken in a light hearted manner It wasn't so intended! You don't have any positions vacant in sunny douglas do you? Anyone else? Anywhere in Africa? Preferably South Africa. Promise I'll be quiet as a mouse, and churn out lotsa useful utilities, plus any amount of real work... :-) -Original Message- From: Dennis Bartlett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 21 April 2004 12:01 To: 'U2 Users Discussion List' Subject: OT: veryy OT: RE: We need a web based Forum! Schalk -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
Definitely an honourable reply. The thing is tho', that if they don't do it in the most accepted/requested way, they'll have more hassle in the long run, forever being bombarded with petty whinging. Seems to me a system where * email (the list) carries on as usual * All emailed responses are submitted as forum responses * All forum responses are whooshed out to the list as email would work. Where you get this, how you write it, what bean you imbibe whilst contemplating it, is beyond me. I salute those who have shouldered the dragon, the feeding of which I fear may become an all-consuming task. Design it (him/her/Puff) well, feed it regularly, clean up the mountainous excretia, hell,even get the right fit for its racing leathers and pray it doesn't burn you, and all should bode well for a long and happy future. Puff? Hmm... Puff the Magic Dragon??? . (P)ost(U)2-Userlist(F)riends of the (F)orum Ok, so that's a little limp. Your turn... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kate Stanton Sent: 22 April 2004 01:36 To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! Thanks. Sounds to me as though it should be the choice of whoever is shouldering the responsibility of looking after it. If they are prepared to do the work, then I applaud them and am privileged to be able to use it, in whatever way they choose. Cheers, Kate -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
In a message dated 4/22/2004 12:29:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Seems to me a system where *email (the list) carries on as usual *All emailed responses are submitted as forum responses *All forum responses are whooshed out to the list as email I would whole-heartedly agree with this. BUT I have never seen such an animal in action myself. I think it's mythical. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
Kate, A forum is a message board. If you subscribe to a listserver list (like this one) you start reading and responding from that point forward and everything is ::pushed:: to you mail box. With a forum, you can easily look at posts which pre-date your joining (a big plus) and you have to go to the forum board(s) to find new posts and new responses instead of simply receiving the new stuff as it happens (a big minus). - Charles Dictionary Barouch Kate Stanton wrote: My ignorance is showing. What is the difference between a forum and a list (like this)? -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
Hi Kate, the web based forum they are talking about is essentially the same as this list. Contrary to some complainants that there is no e-mail notification, there is, in fact, an option for immediate e-mailing of new posts. However, you do need to write your new or response posts on the web site which may be inconvenient for some. For me, for whatever reason (firewall, corp net nanny, etc), I lose about 5% of e-mails from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and the received order is often shuffled so I'm happy to go web. The other advantages I perceive are better file areas - user managed rather than Clif having to do the work, and possibly better apropos discipline. In effect, it's the same, just a different medium. Regards, Stuart -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kate Stanton Sent: Wednesday, 21 April 2004 14:35 To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! My ignorance is showing. What is the difference between a forum and a list (like this)? - Original Message - From: Geoffrey Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: U2 Users Discussion List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:09 AM Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! Why is that an argument? A forum is not the same as a chatroom. It is just as persistent as email. On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 16:38, Kate Stanton wrote: From New Zealand, the main argument against a forum is that we sleep while you work and vice versa. It is 9:30am here now, and 7:30am in Sydney - expect to hear similar story from Australians in about 2 hours. -- -- -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ** This email message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of addressed recipient(s). If you have received this email in error please notify the Spotless IS Support Centre (61 3 9269 7555) immediately who will advise further action. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned for the presence of computer viruses. ** -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
The main argument against the forum is that some of you out their can not access the web. How can anyone in a development role do their job properly nowadays without being able to access the web. I am sure that if all we had was a forum on the web, admin departments would be told that X needs web access and they would get it. James Hogan, Sungard, Dear Sir, What a luvly world you live in. You have a boss who trusts you. You're allowed internet access. You live in a country where bandwidth isnt a problem. You have an admin dept that would be told. Of all this you are sure. The real world. Africa. The boss is paranoid. He's Austrian/German. He employs engineers and questions their every move. He employs programmers, and doubts their every move. If you're not in telnet you're not working (unles you're in excel), if you have time to load the net, you don't have enough to do. First hand from idiots is always preferable to learned advice from the user list. Programmers don't need to concentrate,keep interrupting them because it broadens their abilities to understand the company. F*** what world do you live in... Better you keep your job whatever the cost, coz they sure don't make 'em like that over here! You don't have a position in nirvana for me, do you? -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
Dennis, I certainly hope your boss is not on this list! Schalk On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 05:18:49 -0400, Results [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dennis, If it helps you any, I've had bosses like your over here (U. S.) and they come in all nationalities and regions. If misery loves company, then you have more company in this type of misery than you know. In my case, my boss isn't the problem (I work for myself in one business and have a great partner in the second business) but my clients often look at me the way your boss looks at you. - Charles Listserver Barouch Dennis Bartlett wrote: The main argument against the forum is that some of you out their can not access the web. How can anyone in a development role do their job properly nowadays without being able to access the web. I am sure that if all we had was a forum on the web, admin departments would be told that X needs web access and they would get it. James Hogan, Sungard, Dear Sir, What a luvly world you live in. You have a boss who trusts you. You're allowed internet access. You live in a country where bandwidth isnt a problem. You have an admin dept that would be told. Of all this you are sure. The real world. Africa. The boss is paranoid. He's Austrian/German. He employs engineers and questions their every move. He employs programmers, and doubts their every move. If you're not in telnet you're not working (unles you're in excel), if you have time to load the net, you don't have enough to do. First hand from idiots is always preferable to learned advice from the user list. Programmers don't need to concentrate,keep interrupting them because it broadens their abilities to understand the company. F*** what world do you live in... Better you keep your job whatever the cost, coz they sure don't make 'em like that over here! You don't have a position in nirvana for me, do you? -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ - GWK BEPERK/LIMITED (REG: 1997/022252/06) POSBUS 47 PO BOX 8730 DOUGLAS Direkteure/Directors: NB Jacobs, FJ Lawrence, J v/d S Botes, JH Coetzee, JGD Smit, JF Jacobs, AO Müller, JW Smit, JP Snyman, JG Stander, JH van Dyk(MD/BD), JG Jacobs, A Müller, Sekr/Secr: E van Niekerk. Hierdie e-pos is onderworpe aan 'n vrywaring beskikbaar by: http://www.gwk.co.za/DisclaimerVrywaring.asp This e-mail is subjected to the disclaimer that can be viewed at: http://www.gwk.co.za/DisclaimerVrywaring.asp -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
I didn't suggest using Yahoo Groups, just using it as an example. I hate the ads...but then again, it's free too. From my experience, I've usually seen fairly good response times to posts and replies (2 hrs). Whether it makes a difference of .us vs .au don't know. But some of the replies have been from .au addresses and were quite timely. This whole thread reminds me of when I tried to give away a working TV at a hamfest (flea market for radio equip) one year. People would pick it up, smell it, scutinize it, shake it, asked if it worked. This went on for 2 hours. Finally, I put a $1 price tag on it. It sold in less than 2 minutes, with no questions asked. The moral of the story, when something is free, you expect the world from it/for it, but if you think your getting a great buy for your money, your willing to accept almost any flaw. George -Original Message- From: Craig Bennett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:32 PM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! Yahoo groups works this way. You can either post via the web, or from Email, and receive either web only or also via email. Of course, if the forum being used is canned, and doesn't have those options, it might be a bit more difficult to do what we want. George But George Yahoo Groups can be SLOW. I tried to run a tutorial mailing list in yahoo groups and it could take days for my responses to students to appear. Craig -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
Sorry it has been a day before I reply, however getting the digest version delays my response somewhat. I take my hat of to people who deal with the deluge of individual emails each day! Will said: But if this works like boards.ancestry.com or www.genforum.com then if you post via the email, your posting does not show up integrated into the boards. So some information is lost unless we have also an archival engine that saves all emails, integrating them into archived forum posts to re-form the consistent thread I think there are better solutions out there. For example searching the web (having web access allows staff to find solutions for your company!) I was able to find this http://phorum.org/ - Phorum is a web based message board written in PHP. Phorum is designed with high-availability and visitor ease of use in mind. Features such as mailing list integration, easy customization and simple installation make Phorum a powerful add-in to any website. It is also very common for newgroups to have mail integration e.g. http://gaffa.org/faq/faq_1_2.html Keith upton said: How about company/department policy? And why can't I do my job properly without having access to the web? How do you access the IBM Online features such as the Knowlege base, Availability index, online call management etc. etc. How do you keep up to date with the latest technology. Find information patches for your OS/ Software / Hardware. The list goes on. I really can not see how I could do my development job without this essential tool. Company /department policy can be changed, if you can show that the company gets benefits, such as fixes found quicker / questions answered quicker. No one is saying every person in the company needs web access. Maybe one web access terminal is shared by a number of people. This avoids the complaint that people are surfing the net not working. Talking of working James Hogan Sungard -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
OT: RE: We need a web based Forum!
OK, I hate to keep perpetuating this thread, which has nothing to do with U2, but... That has not been my experience with web forums. Most forum software I have seen brings topics with recent replies to the top, and highlights threads with new activity. I have seen long dormant threads become active again weeks or months later because someone happened to read them and reply. As for the lack of immediacy, good email integration seems to me to solve that. The argument that, for some people, access to email is more acceptable in their environment than access to email, however, is a very valid one. On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 02:03, Anthony Youngman wrote: But it is far less immediate. I sometimes have conversations with people stateside. I'll find an email when I get to work at 8am BST (British Summer Time, not Bering Straights Time :-). I'll respond. Then the person it was aimed at will get to work at, say, 9am New York Time, respond, and we bounce ideas around for an hour or so before I go home. A forum relies on me (a) noticing their message at 8am my time - and forum scanning puts me off - I miss loads. Then (b) they've got to notice early morning their time that I responded, and (c) I've got to catch them at it! That just won't happen, in the normal course of events. One of the reasons I've abandoned many fora is that I keep coming across plenty of conversations that happened while I was away, but could easily have contributed to. And I get p*ssed off that my (I fool myself they are relevant) comments get ignored because the subject has now gone stale. Cheers, Wol. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Mitchell Sent: 21 April 2004 00:10 To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! Why is that an argument? A forum is not the same as a chatroom. It is just as persistent as email. On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 16:38, Kate Stanton wrote: From New Zealand, the main argument against a forum is that we sleep while you work and vice versa. It is 9:30am here now, and 7:30am in Sydney - expect to hear similar story from Australians in about 2 hours. This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 9911 7799, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. -- Geoffrey Mitchell 314-684-1062 Programmer/Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] Knights Direct -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: RE: We need a web based Forum!
Except you've only addressed one minor point of mine. The fact is, most activity seems to happen stateside. Email means I can actually hold a conversation with someone stateside. A forum means any conversation is likely to go like a satellite phone - with a TWELVE HOUR delay (on average) between each side speaking :-( It's bad enough with the 3 second delay you typically get on the phone as the signal goes via outer space, without it being twelve hours as it goes via timezones. For me, the practicalities are that fora turn into passive entertainment. I can't join in, even if I want to. So don't expect me to bother ... Cheers, Wol -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Mitchell Sent: 21 April 2004 15:18 To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: OT: RE: We need a web based Forum! OK, I hate to keep perpetuating this thread, which has nothing to do with U2, but... That has not been my experience with web forums. Most forum software I have seen brings topics with recent replies to the top, and highlights threads with new activity. I have seen long dormant threads become active again weeks or months later because someone happened to read them and reply. As for the lack of immediacy, good email integration seems to me to solve that. The argument that, for some people, access to email is more acceptable in their environment than access to email, however, is a very valid one. On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 02:03, Anthony Youngman wrote: But it is far less immediate. I sometimes have conversations with people stateside. I'll find an email when I get to work at 8am BST (British Summer Time, not Bering Straights Time :-). I'll respond. Then the person it was aimed at will get to work at, say, 9am New York Time, respond, and we bounce ideas around for an hour or so before I go home. A forum relies on me (a) noticing their message at 8am my time - and forum scanning puts me off - I miss loads. Then (b) they've got to notice early morning their time that I responded, and (c) I've got to catch them at it! That just won't happen, in the normal course of events. One of the reasons I've abandoned many fora is that I keep coming across plenty of conversations that happened while I was away, but could easily have contributed to. And I get p*ssed off that my (I fool myself they are relevant) comments get ignored because the subject has now gone stale. Cheers, Wol. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Mitchell Sent: 21 April 2004 00:10 To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! Why is that an argument? A forum is not the same as a chatroom. It is just as persistent as email. On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 16:38, Kate Stanton wrote: From New Zealand, the main argument against a forum is that we sleep while you work and vice versa. It is 9:30am here now, and 7:30am in Sydney - expect to hear similar story from Australians in about 2 hours. This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 9911 7799, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. -- Geoffrey Mitchell 314-684-1062 Programmer/Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] Knights Direct -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
Oh. The Microsoft model... :-) On Apr 21, 2004, at 6:29, George Gallen wrote: from it/for it, but if you think your getting a great buy for your money, your willing to accept almost any flaw. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
Never thought about that.h. Except their products aren't cheap! and don't always work. Which in the case of the TV, definitely worked, and for $1 was cheap. George -Original Message- From: Clif Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:00 PM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: Re: We need a web based Forum! Oh. The Microsoft model... :-) On Apr 21, 2004, at 6:29, George Gallen wrote: from it/for it, but if you think your getting a great buy for your money, your willing to accept almost any flaw. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
In a message dated 4/21/2004 9:43:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think there are better solutions out there. For example searching the web (having web access allows staff to find solutions for your company!) I was able to find this http://phorum.org/ - Phorum is a web based message board written in PHP. Phorum is designed with high-availability and visitor ease of use in mind. Features such as mailing list integration, easy customization and simple installation make Phorum a powerful add-in to any website. It is also very common for newgroups to have mail integration e.g. http://gaffa.org/faq/faq_1_2.html I disagree that its very common to have what I posted. But I'm not sure you understood me. Let's say I'm subscribed to both the forum and its corresponding email list. If I send a message to the email list only, will it appear on the forum site? Or alternatively will it appear in the archives of the forum site? That's the question. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
This is a good conversation and one we ought to be able to make progress with over time. When the U2UG board agreed to take on the u2-users list from Clif, we figured that we would serve the community best if we don't vary too many factors at one time. We would prefer that the move from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] at the end of this month be painless enough that we don't lose community members. Once u2-users is happily living in its new home and the www.u2ug.org site is a place you want to go to regularly, we can look at various requirements and see if there is a solution that meets all or at least more requirements than the current one. I, for one, am one of the old fuddy-duddies who does fine with e-mail lists, is OK with usenet when necessary, and can't seem to get a pattern that works for me with forums. I don't know if it is a personality type that prefers one over the other or if there are some work habit changes that just aren't obvious enough to me, but I haven't found a way to change from e-mail lists to forums as yet. As others have mentioned, if there were a way for each user to use whatever interface were desired for seeing threads, sending and receiving postings, etc so that each could use their preferred approach, that would be ideal -- something to strive for ... --dawn Dawn M. Wolthuis Tincat Group, Inc. www.tincat-group.com Take and give some delight today. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 3:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: We need a web based Forum! I only belong to two groups: this one and sbsolutions on yahoo groups. To me they behave the same - I have an email folder for each and messages are routed there. I interact with them in the same way - simply sending e-mail messages. However, the yahoo group also has a web-site with all of the messages in it that I've occasionally used to search (although their search is terrible). I don't think external search engines capture them as you need to login in order to see the posts. The only problem is that the messages appear in posted order and not sorted by conversation. Even better would be the option to have either order. Well, that's my vote. Web based forums with the options to receive/post through e-mail. Limited to members only. With a good search utility. Now surely as a bunch on computer geeks we could make this happen... -- Colin Alfke Calgary, Alberta Canada Just because something isn't broken doesn't mean that you can't fix it Stu Pickles -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [SNIP] I disagree that its very common to have what I posted. But I'm not sure you understood me. Let's say I'm subscribed to both the forum and its corresponding email list. If I send a message to the email list only, will it appear on the forum site? Or alternatively will it appear in the archives of the forum site? That's the question. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
What? Using something given for free without insisting it be tailored to your individual desires? Careful, Kate. The Programmers Guild will take away your membership card if word leaks out. grin -- Regards, Clif On Apr 21, 2004, at 16:36, Kate Stanton wrote: Thanks. Sounds to me as though it should be the choice of whoever is shouldering the responsibility of looking after it. If they are prepared to do the work, then I applaud them and am privileged to be able to use it, in whatever way they choose. Cheers, Kate -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
I think forums may be available (again) soon on the u2ug site - I'm not sure. But one of the reasons behind the muddle at u2ug was that a lot of people DON'T like forums - they find them a pig to use even if they have access. I don't take the digest, for precisely the reason you've discovered. I find google a pain because it makes news look like a forum - but I use it if I have to. I use news or email from choice. So, if and when the fora reappear, don't expect to find me (or a lot of the other experts) there. TNSTAASB (tnstaa silver bullet) :-) Cheers, Wol -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hogan, James Sent: 20 April 2004 10:06 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: We need a web based Forum! Trying to follow a thread in the digest today I had to wade through pointless re-inclusions of previous posts where people had just hit the reply-to option without doing any editing. We have been here before I know. But a forum would sort all this. It is user friendly and you are able to follow just the threads you want to. You can also easily pick up a thread and follow it's history. The main argument against the forum is that some of you out their can not access the web. How can anyone in a development role do their job properly nowadays without being able to access the web. I am sure that if all we had was a forum on the web, admin departments would be told that X needs web access and they would get it. James Hogan Sungard -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 9911 7799, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
snip The main argument against the forum is that some of you out their can not access the web. How can anyone in a development role do their job properly nowadays without being able to access the web. I am sure that if all we had was a forum on the web, admin departments would be told that X needs web access and they would get it. snip How about company/department policy? And why can't I do my job properly without having access to the web? This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the use of the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, you must not copy, distribute or disclose the contents; please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. This message is attributed to the sender and may not necessarily reflect the view of Travis Perkins plc or its subsidiaries (Travis Perkins). Agreements binding Travis Perkins may not be concluded by means of e-mail communication. E-mail transmissions are not secure and Travis Perkins accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. Whilst steps have been taken to ensure that this message is virus free, Travis Perkins accepts no liability for infection and recommends that you scan this e-mail and any attachments. Part of Travis Perkins plc. Registered Office: Lodge Way House, Lodge Way, Harlestone Road, Northampton, NN5 7UG. -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
RE: We need a web based Forum!
Yahoo groups works this way. You can either post via the web, or from Email, and receive either web only or also via email. Of course, if the forum being used is canned, and doesn't have those options, it might be a bit more difficult to do what we want. George -Original Message- From: Stevenson, Charles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:57 AM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: RE: We need a web based Forum! The secret has GOT to be one (1) single database managing the posted messages and threads, with possibly different user interfaces as frontends. DO NOT build 2 applications on the backend. cds -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Youngman Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 2:31 AM To: U2 Users Discussion List Subject: RE: We need a web based Forum! I think forums may be available (again) soon on the u2ug site - I'm not sure. But one of the reasons behind the muddle at u2ug was that a lot of people DON'T like forums - they find them a pig to use even if they have access. I don't take the digest, for precisely the reason you've discovered. I find google a pain because it makes news look like a forum - but I use it if I have to. I use news or email from choice. So, if and when the fora reappear, don't expect to find me (or a lot of the other experts) there. TNSTAASB (tnstaa silver bullet) :-) Cheers, Wol -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hogan, James Sent: 20 April 2004 10:06 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: We need a web based Forum! Trying to follow a thread in the digest today I had to wade through pointless re-inclusions of previous posts where people had just hit the reply-to option without doing any editing. We have been here before I know. But a forum would sort all this. It is user friendly and you are able to follow just the threads you want to. You can also easily pick up a thread and follow it's history. The main argument against the forum is that some of you out their can not access the web. How can anyone in a development role do their job properly nowadays without being able to access the web. I am sure that if all we had was a forum on the web, admin departments would be told that X needs web access and they would get it. James Hogan Sungard -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ** ** This transmission is intended for the named recipient only. It may contain private and confidential information. If this has come to you in error you must not act on anything disclosed in it, nor must you copy it, modify it, disseminate it in any way, or show it to anyone. Please e-mail the sender to inform us of the transmission error or telephone ECA International immediately and delete the e-mail from your information system. Telephone numbers for ECA International offices are: Sydney +61 (0)2 9911 7799, Hong Kong + 852 2121 2388, London +44 (0)20 7351 5000 and New York +1 212 582 2333. ** ** -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: We need a web based Forum!
In a message dated 4/20/2004 11:34:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yahoo groups works this way. You can either post via the web, or from Email, and receive either web only or also via email. Of course, if the forum being used is canned, and doesn't have those options, it might be a bit more difficult to do what we want. George But if this works like boards.ancestry.com or www.genforum.com then if you post via the email, your posting does not show up integrated into the boards. So some information is lost unless we have also an archival engine that saves all emails, integrating them into archived forum posts to re-form the consistent thread Sounds pretty messy. Will -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
