Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Warren Samples wrote: On 07/29/2018 07:56 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: First question (an admittedly ignorant one, but I haven't spent much time in the CentOS community): Why does their package manager not automatically keep system components current? Second question: If the first question cannot be resolved easily, what is the advantage of CentOS for this project over Ubuntu or Debian? Richard, The explanation that addresses your first question can be expressed in a very long-winded manner but also boiled down to this: It's RHEL's approach to enforcing stability. They and their clients are interested in a system that gives them no bad surprises. This takes into account the fact that many of those clients are using complicated proprietary software for critical tasks; commercial software and/or software developed in-house, which is expected to be fail-proof. There's is an obviously ultra-conservative approach, but you can't deny they've been successful at what they do :D CentOS naturally inherits the result of this philosophy. Ubuntu's LTS (Long Term Support) releases serve the same goal, with similar methods: patches are allowed, security patches can be automated, but new features are held back until the next LTS release. It's a tough call, though, with supplemental packages getting long in the tooth. In addition to the potential vulnerabilities, older packages can introduce their own compatibility issues, as we've seen here. I tend to stick with only LTS releases myself, so I appreciate the goals with such things. But unless one is managing a legacy system with known dependencies on older packages, using a more recent version would seem a good fit, esp. for non-experts, as it establishes a fresh baseline using the latest and greatest. I guess the missing piece of the puzzle here is why his VPS service doesn't offer CentOS 7. But as you say: Of course the market is open and it's relatively easy to switch hosts. There are several distros that would qualify as reliable enough for server usage including a few that aren't as widely available as the more popular ones. Debian and Ubuntu are totally valid along with CentOS and those are probably the most widely available in hosting packages -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
On 07/29/2018 07:56 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote: First question (an admittedly ignorant one, but I haven't spent much time in the CentOS community): Why does their package manager not automatically keep system components current? Second question: If the first question cannot be resolved easily, what is the advantage of CentOS for this project over Ubuntu or Debian? Richard, The explanation that addresses your first question can be expressed in a very long-winded manner but also boiled down to this: It's RHEL's approach to enforcing stability. They and their clients are interested in a system that gives them no bad surprises. This takes into account the fact that many of those clients are using complicated proprietary software for critical tasks; commercial software and/or software developed in-house, which is expected to be fail-proof. There's is an obviously ultra-conservative approach, but you can't deny they've been successful at what they do :D CentOS naturally inherits the result of this philosophy. The perception of extreme stability, along with the fact that it's one of only a very few OSs supported by cPanel, make CentOS very popular among hosting companies. All versions of RHEL and CentOS are supported for ten years which by design is to eliminate a disruption of services caused by forced upgrades. This sometimes leads to hosting companies running a version or two behind the latest, which can result in the problem Keith is encountering. Keith has admitted he doesn't have a lot of knowledge and skills in Linux, so a managed VPS is a great solution for him. (I feel pretty much in that same boat. There are probably a lot of people trying to manage their own VPS who shouldn't be! Being well versed on maintaining a Linux desktop does not begin to address the skills and knowledge a server admin needs.) So, he's a little bit at the mercy of his hosting company. Of course the market is open and it's relatively easy to switch hosts. There are several distros that would qualify as reliable enough for server usage including a few that aren't as widely available as the more popular ones. Debian and Ubuntu are totally valid along with CentOS and those are probably the most widely available in hosting packages. Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
On 08/01/2018 01:45 AM, Keith Clarke via use-livecode wrote: whether the issues are down to glibc version dependencies is beyond me. You can check this by running ldd [/path/to/livecode-server] It will return a list that looks something like this (from my desktop system): linux-vdso.so.1 (0x631efbacc000) libdl.so.2 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.2 (0x631efb6a6000) libpthread.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x631efb488000) libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x631efb245000) libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/libfreetype.so.6 (0x631efaf7c000) librt.so.1 => /usr/lib/librt.so.1 (0x631efad74000) libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 (0x631efa9eb000) libm.so.6 => /usr/lib/libm.so.6 (0x631efa656000) libgcc_s.so.1 => /usr/lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x631efa43e000) libc.so.6 => /usr/lib/libc.so.6 (0x631efa082000) /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 => /usr/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x631efb8aa000) libexpat.so.1 => /usr/lib/libexpat.so.1 (0x631ef9e5) libuuid.so.1 => /usr/lib/libuuid.so.1 (0x631ef9c49000) libbz2.so.1.0 => /usr/lib/libbz2.so.1.0 (0x631ef9a39000) libpng16.so.16 => /usr/lib/libpng16.so.16 (0x631ef9803000) libz.so.1 => /usr/lib/libz.so.1 (0x631ef95ec000) libharfbuzz.so.0 => /usr/lib/libharfbuzz.so.0 (0x631ef934) libglib-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0 (0x631ef9029000) libgraphite2.so.3 => /usr/lib/libgraphite2.so.3 (0x631ef8dfd000) libpcre.so.1 => /usr/lib/libpcre.so.1 (0x631ef8b8b000) Don't worry about the first line where there is no returned path. Some systems may return those like this "linux-vdso.so.1 => (0x7fff6000)" with the memory location after a "=>". There may be one or two of those. What's important is that if something is not found or is found but in a mismatched version, you will see an explicit message stating as much, like so: libfontconfig.so.1 => not found If you try running 64bit LC-server on a 32bit machine or 32bit Server on a 64 bit machine without any of the 32 bit libs, you will probably see the message that the file is not a dynamic executable. Here's a little bit about ldd that you and others might find helpful: https://www.lifewire.com/find-shared-libraries-ldd-command-4017941 https://circleci.com/blog/tracking-dependencies-with-ldd/ https://circleci.com/blog/tracking-dependencies-with-ldd/ Good luck! Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Thanks Richard & Brian for digging into this. Lacking the Linux knowledge I tried working backwards from LC Server 9.0, trying 8.0 and 7.14 with no joy (internal server 500 error codes) - though whether the issues are down to glibc version dependencies is beyond me. Earlier versions have less/no documentation in the packages and seem to only have 32-bit downloads available, which could introduce other issues (as the server is running 64-bit CentOS 6). I think it’s time to stop flogging this particular dead horse and find an alternative dev environment pending target VPS OS upgrade, but thanks to all for trying. …and that opens another can of worms that may warrant another thread or two - apologies in advance! :-) Regards, Keith > On 31 Jul 2018, at 17:31, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode > wrote: > > Keith Clarke wrote: > > > Thanks Martin (& Brian). It transpires that the VPS in question only > > has CentOS 6 OS option, even if recreated - so the OS is a given for > > the short term, pending replacement / upgrade discussions with the > > hosting provider, which are not my call. > > > > One option to get underway might be to deploy an earlier version of LC > > Server that can both: > > Run happily under Linux with GLIBC at 2.12 > > Use LC9-compatible stacks - so I can develop on my desktop and deploy. > > > > I just hope these criteria aren’t mutually exclusive! > > Apparently glibc has a very conservative version numbering scheme - v2.12 was > from 2010: > https://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/Glibc%20Timeline > > LC 9's native format is the same as with v8.1, so I checked the Release Notes > for that version and apparently it requires glibc 2.13 or later. > > Oddly, looking back to LC v7.0 the glibc required versions were *higher* than > they are in later versions - from the v7 release notes: > > Requirements for 32-bit Intel/AMD: > glibc 2.3.6 or later > Requirements for 64-bit Intel/AMD: > glibc 2.15 or later > > Even odder is that support for the older 32-bit architecture requires a much > newer version (?). > > In fact, I went back as far as LC v4.5 and found the glibc required version > listed as "glibc 2.3.2 or later". > > This is confusing to me, so it seems we could benefit from some guidance from > Mark Waddingham or one of the Linux-savvy team members. > > I wonder how difficult it would be to recompile LC 9.0.1 with glibc 2.12... > > -- > Richard Gaskin > Fourth World Systems > Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web > > ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
In addition to bug fixes, I found this in the release notes for glibc 2.13: New optimized string functions for x86-64: strnlen (SSE2), strcasecmp (SSE2, SSSE3, SSE4.2), strncasecmp (SSE2, SSSE3, SSE4.2) Implemented by Ulrich Drepper. This is something that is probably beneficial to string functions in LC. The ABI comparison that I found started with 2.13 so it doesn't show the symbol changes from the previous version. On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode < use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote: > Keith Clarke wrote: > > > Thanks Martin (& Brian). It transpires that the VPS in question only > > has CentOS 6 OS option, even if recreated - so the OS is a given for > > the short term, pending replacement / upgrade discussions with the > > hosting provider, which are not my call. > > > > One option to get underway might be to deploy an earlier version of LC > > Server that can both: > > Run happily under Linux with GLIBC at 2.12 > > Use LC9-compatible stacks - so I can develop on my desktop and deploy. > > > > I just hope these criteria aren’t mutually exclusive! > > Apparently glibc has a very conservative version numbering scheme - v2.12 > was from 2010: > https://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/Glibc%20Timeline > > LC 9's native format is the same as with v8.1, so I checked the Release > Notes for that version and apparently it requires glibc 2.13 or later. > > Oddly, looking back to LC v7.0 the glibc required versions were *higher* > than they are in later versions - from the v7 release notes: > > Requirements for 32-bit Intel/AMD: > glibc 2.3.6 or later > Requirements for 64-bit Intel/AMD: > glibc 2.15 or later > > Even odder is that support for the older 32-bit architecture requires a > much newer version (?). > > In fact, I went back as far as LC v4.5 and found the glibc required > version listed as "glibc 2.3.2 or later". > > This is confusing to me, so it seems we could benefit from some guidance > from Mark Waddingham or one of the Linux-savvy team members. > > I wonder how difficult it would be to recompile LC 9.0.1 with glibc 2.12... > > -- > Richard Gaskin > Fourth World Systems > Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web > > ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode > ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Keith Clarke wrote: > Thanks Martin (& Brian). It transpires that the VPS in question only > has CentOS 6 OS option, even if recreated - so the OS is a given for > the short term, pending replacement / upgrade discussions with the > hosting provider, which are not my call. > > One option to get underway might be to deploy an earlier version of LC > Server that can both: > Run happily under Linux with GLIBC at 2.12 > Use LC9-compatible stacks - so I can develop on my desktop and deploy. > > I just hope these criteria aren’t mutually exclusive! Apparently glibc has a very conservative version numbering scheme - v2.12 was from 2010: https://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/Glibc%20Timeline LC 9's native format is the same as with v8.1, so I checked the Release Notes for that version and apparently it requires glibc 2.13 or later. Oddly, looking back to LC v7.0 the glibc required versions were *higher* than they are in later versions - from the v7 release notes: Requirements for 32-bit Intel/AMD: glibc 2.3.6 or later Requirements for 64-bit Intel/AMD: glibc 2.15 or later Even odder is that support for the older 32-bit architecture requires a much newer version (?). In fact, I went back as far as LC v4.5 and found the glibc required version listed as "glibc 2.3.2 or later". This is confusing to me, so it seems we could benefit from some guidance from Mark Waddingham or one of the Linux-savvy team members. I wonder how difficult it would be to recompile LC 9.0.1 with glibc 2.12... -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Thanks Martin (& Brian). It transpires that the VPS in question only has CentOS 6 OS option, even if recreated - so the OS is a given for the short term, pending replacement / upgrade discussions with the hosting provider, which are not my call. One option to get underway might be to deploy an earlier version of LC Server that can both: Run happily under Linux with GLIBC at 2.12 Use LC9-compatible stacks - so I can develop on my desktop and deploy. I just hope these criteria aren’t mutually exclusive! I’m not sure when stack change hit LC server or where to discover that. Before I start working backwards through server downloads to read the release notes, could anyone please perhaps nominate a likely contender release to target first? Thanks & regards, Keith > On 30 Jul 2018, at 19:37, Martin Koob via use-livecode > wrote: > > Hi Keith > > I have been running LC server on CentOS 6 on a VPS for a few years now. It > runs the api for a cloud based application I have. I am not sure of the LC > version but I am pretty sure it is 6.x... > > I don't know the details of the set up at the moment but If you want I can > check into it further. > > I am looking to upgrade to CentOS 7 and a more recent version of LC OS, > Hopefully LC9. Haven't tried this out yet though. On the todo list. > > Martin > > > > -- > Sent from: > http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Revolution-User-f278306.html > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Hi Keith I have been running LC server on CentOS 6 on a VPS for a few years now. It runs the api for a cloud based application I have. I am not sure of the LC version but I am pretty sure it is 6.x... I don't know the details of the set up at the moment but If you want I can check into it further. I am looking to upgrade to CentOS 7 and a more recent version of LC OS, Hopefully LC9. Haven't tried this out yet though. On the todo list. Martin -- Sent from: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Revolution-User-f278306.html ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Last migration that I had was pretty seamless. They migrated everything to a new VPS for me to check out before flipping the switch to migrate to the upgrade. May be worth checking out if they do the same sort of thing. Thanks, Brian On Jul 30, 2018, 1:41 AM -0500, Keith Clarke via use-livecode , wrote: > > > First question (an admittedly ignorant one, but I haven't spent much time > > in the CentOS community): Why does their package manager not automatically > > keep system components current? > > CentOS 6 is not the latest version (and will be unsupported from 2020), so I > guess there are dependencies that require moving to CentOS 7 for more recent > components. > > > Second question: If the first question cannot be resolved easily, what is > > the advantage of CentOS for this project over Ubuntu or Debian? > > Convenience - it just happens to be the OS of the VPS hosting a Wordpress > website, with capacity & a wildcard SSL certificate on the domain, where I > was thinking about using LC to add some web services in a subdomain. > > Apparently the VPS can be destroyed and recreated on CentOS 7 but I have no > confidence I can ensure any backup of the existing config & services will > magically come back to life on CentOS 7 core seamlessly. > > Best, > Keith > > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
> First question (an admittedly ignorant one, but I haven't spent much time in > the CentOS community): Why does their package manager not automatically keep > system components current? CentOS 6 is not the latest version (and will be unsupported from 2020), so I guess there are dependencies that require moving to CentOS 7 for more recent components. > Second question: If the first question cannot be resolved easily, what is the > advantage of CentOS for this project over Ubuntu or Debian? Convenience - it just happens to be the OS of the VPS hosting a Wordpress website, with capacity & a wildcard SSL certificate on the domain, where I was thinking about using LC to add some web services in a subdomain. Apparently the VPS can be destroyed and recreated on CentOS 7 but I have no confidence I can ensure any backup of the existing config & services will magically come back to life on CentOS 7 core seamlessly. Best, Keith ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Keith Clarke wrote: > Thanks Warren (& Richard) - this probably is the blocker, as this > particular VPS is definitely running 2.12 > > Google suggests that I can’t (or at least shouldn't attempt to) > upgrade CentOS 6 with a later glibc version, given its central role. > > Apparently there are workarounds to install an additional, later > version of glibc - as an option, alongside the OS version - in such a > way that it gets called session by session, when needed (i.e. for LC > Server use). However, after failing to complete a couple of these, > it's clear but that this is way beyond my Linux chops to sort. > > So, it looks like server migration / rebuild will need to be on the > critical path or it’s a dead-end for experimenting with LC Server for > this particular project. First question (an admittedly ignorant one, but I haven't spent much time in the CentOS community): Why does their package manager not automatically keep system components current? Second question: If the first question cannot be resolved easily, what is the advantage of CentOS for this project over Ubuntu or Debian? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Thanks Warren (& Richard) - this probably is the blocker, as this particular VPS is definitely running 2.12 Google suggests that I can’t (or at least shouldn't attempt to) upgrade CentOS 6 with a later glibc version, given its central role. Apparently there are workarounds to install an additional, later version of glibc - as an option, alongside the OS version - in such a way that it gets called session by session, when needed (i.e. for LC Server use). However, after failing to complete a couple of these, it's clear but that this is way beyond my Linux chops to sort. So, it looks like server migration / rebuild will need to be on the critical path or it’s a dead-end for experimenting with LC Server for this particular project. Thanks Keith > On 29 Jul 2018, at 08:06, Warren Samples via use-livecode > wrote: > > On 07/28/2018 05:39 AM, Keith Clarke via use-livecode wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> Is anyone running LS Server on CentOS 6? >> I notice that only version 7 is officially supported and not being a Linux >> expert, I’d like to know if this server OS would need to be upgraded before >> attempting anything with LC server on it. >> TIA >> Keith > > The release notes say glibc 2.13 or later is needed to run LC 8 and 9 in > Linux. You can check the installed version in a shell locally, or using ssh > on a remote machine, with this command: > > ldd --version > > The first line it returns tells you the version. On my desktop it returns > this, showing glibc is version 2.27: > > ldd (GNU libc) 2.27 > Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. > This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO > warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. > Written by Roland McGrath and Ulrich Drepper. > > I have a CentOS 7 server running glibc 2.17 and LC server works there. It > looks like CentOS 6 ships with 2.12 which won't work. > > Good luck! > > Warren > > ___ > use-livecode mailing list > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
On 07/28/2018 05:39 AM, Keith Clarke via use-livecode wrote: Hi Folks, Is anyone running LS Server on CentOS 6? I notice that only version 7 is officially supported and not being a Linux expert, I’d like to know if this server OS would need to be upgraded before attempting anything with LC server on it. TIA Keith The release notes say glibc 2.13 or later is needed to run LC 8 and 9 in Linux. You can check the installed version in a shell locally, or using ssh on a remote machine, with this command: ldd --version The first line it returns tells you the version. On my desktop it returns this, showing glibc is version 2.27: ldd (GNU libc) 2.27 Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Written by Roland McGrath and Ulrich Drepper. I have a CentOS 7 server running glibc 2.17 and LC server works there. It looks like CentOS 6 ships with 2.12 which won't work. Good luck! Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Keith Clarke wrote: > Is anyone running LS Server on CentOS 6? > I notice that only version 7 is officially supported and not being a > Linux expert, I’d like to know if this server OS would need to be > upgraded before attempting anything with LC server on it. "Officially Supported" only designates the distros the LC core dev team is dedicated to testing on and maintaining for. The others are community supported, and since LC's requirements are so light it generally works on most modern distros. Give it a whirl and let us know how it goes. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Systems Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
LiveCode Server on CentOS 6?
Hi Folks, Is anyone running LS Server on CentOS 6? I notice that only version 7 is officially supported and not being a Linux expert, I’d like to know if this server OS would need to be upgraded before attempting anything with LC server on it. TIA Keith ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
