Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
But Ooo/LO does use structure markup. All .odt/.ods documents are XML files. XML is just syntax. It does not necessarily imply structure markup, as shown by e.g. .docx and .odt. Just unzip an .odt document and open contents.xml in a XML editor to see what spaghetti xml looks like. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field. Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge versions available. The point is that you do not only need a printer driver to generate the PDF, but also an application that can open those .doc, .ppt etc. files. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/15/2012 07:48 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field. Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge versions available. The point is that you do not only need a printer driver to generate the PDF, but also an application that can open those .doc, .ppt etc. files. Sincerely, Wolfgang Wolfgang . . . I use Writer's Export to PDF and CUPS-PDF [Ubuntu 12.04] both, to create PDF prints of my document. CUPS-PDF will print PDFs for any package that can print to a physical printer. I use doPDF for Windows systems. Export to PDF doesgreat, except for some of the real decortive fonts I may use. Then I need to use CUPS-PDF. The drawback with CUPS-PDF is the document is always viewed in portrait mode even if the text is aligned in a landscape mode. To be honest, I even use Writer to create eBooks for my tablet. For some reason, I cannot get my tablet to read my ebooks on the installed microSD card. Kindle for Android does not want to do it. So, after all my testing I figured it would be easier to create PDFs that was in the print size of a paperback, or at least my 7 inch tablet's screen. Right now, I open the .mobi files,or .epub files, and export them to a plain text file. Then I open them in Writer and use the A6 page size [4.13 by 5.83 inches] and reduce the margins down to .15 inches. Then I export them to a PDF file. That process works well. Actually the only way I can get the Kindle reader to read a file on the added microSD card is to open a PDF file using the file manager. This way will not work with any other file type forKindle, but it does workwith PDF. I do not have a Kindle tablet, but a $100 Trio Stealth Pro, since that was all I could afford at the time. SO, Writer does a lot of things that a reader/converter app cannot do. I cancreate PDF eBooks from free plain text files, or even other file formats with a little help. I now have 3 six-foot high bookshelf units staked 2 and 3 deep with paperback books. I am currently working on getting as many of those books in both audio and eBook formats. Then, if I ever have to reduce the number of books, or make room for newones, I will have them still in eBook, and maybe audio book, format. Writer helps me take the .epub and .mobi books and convert them into something I can use on my tablet. Of course, I could move/copy them over to the internal 4 GB card, but I would rather leave them on the removable 32 GB microSD card. Last year, I would not have imagined that I would use Writer, and some helper-apps to make usable eBooks for a tablet. Last year I did not think I would ever buy a table either. Actually I use Writer for quick posters for people. If itis a complex poster, I use Inkscape, but slowly learning what Draw can do. Actually I create anew/revised logo for a non-profit organization that I created the original logo for. I used Draw this time, just to practicewith it. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 10/10/2012 06:11, rost52 ha scritto: On 2012-10-09 18:50, Marcello Romani wrote: that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field. Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge versions available. but having a pdf-writer incorporated is one of the nice features of LO. I always use pdfwriter from sourceforge. OTOH, if one wants to convert MS Word doc file to PDF without instaslling MS softwrae, LO/OO is the only (IME) option. -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/10/2012 12:11 AM, rost52 wrote: On 2012-10-09 18:50, Marcello Romani wrote: that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field. Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge versions available. but having a pdf-writer incorporated is one of the nice features of LO. Yes there are external PDF file writers that are free. doPDF for Windows and CUPS-PDF for Linux are the ones I use. BUT, having an internal Export-to-PDF option is always a food idea. It defaults to the folder the original document file is saved in. External ones do not. Export-to-PDF does have issues with embedding some specialty fonts, but it does not force the PDF file to be in Portrait mode line CUPS-PDF does. I do not get the race-car vs. tractor image. Are you thinking about a package the just does the conversion instead of having a full office suite that can do it as part of its abilities? Since PDF is touted as the standard format for sending documents or having them online, it is important to make it easy for the users to create a PDF version of their document. To be honest, I use CUPS-PDF as my default printer. That way I can print out web pages and only print the physical pages I want. Same with emails and any other package that will allow you to print. Saves a lot of paper that way. Also, LO does not create duplex prints for me, most of the time, do to an issue that came up last year. So creating a PDF file and using the default PDF viewer and printing from there is how I get my duplex printed documents. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto: OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action? So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ? Sounds good to me. -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Am 09.10.2012 09:14, Marcello Romani wrote: Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto: OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action? So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ? Sounds good to me. Again, it is not the office program which creates read-only files. In most cases some other application calls the office to *view* some document. In most cases the office is called by a browser, mail client or cloud application to view online content or mail attachments. There are many reasons why this application has a viewing mode. It must not open some document in unsaved template mode just because the file is read-only. That would be extremely annoying for many users. Most of our ODF documents (documentations, print-outs, database forms, reports) are strictly read-only because only one person (me, the file owner) is supposed to modify these. The co-workers can work with the contained material (read, print, mail as PDF, edit databases through forms). All you've got to do is hitting the edit button in order to get an editable new and unsaved document. All you've got to do is saving the same document in your own file system in order to get your own editable copy of the document. Some Microsoft feature carries over the read-only flag when an application saves a document under another name. I'd call this a bug. No other file system behaves that silly. You need to turn it off in the file properties (right-click file in Win ExplorerProperties...). There is also an internal read-only mode implemented in the office program (FileSave As... save with password, open read-only with password). But that is another story. The internal flag within the document does not protect the file from being manipulated by other applications and the read-only status is carried with every copy of the file. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 09/10/2012 11:18, Andreas Säger ha scritto: Am 09.10.2012 09:14, Marcello Romani wrote: Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto: OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action? So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ? Sounds good to me. After all I probably answered too quickly... :P Again, it is not the office program which creates read-only files. In most cases some other application calls the office to *view* some document. In most cases the office is called by a browser, mail client or cloud application to view online content or mail attachments. There are many reasons why this application has a viewing mode. It must not open some document in unsaved template mode just because the file is read-only. That would be extremely annoying for many users. Most of our ODF documents (documentations, print-outs, database forms, reports) are strictly read-only because only one person (me, the file owner) is supposed to modify these. The co-workers can work with the contained material (read, print, mail as PDF, edit databases through forms). All you've got to do is hitting the edit button in order to get an editable new and unsaved document. All you've got to do is saving the same document in your own file system in order to get your own editable copy of the document. Some Microsoft feature carries over the read-only flag when an application saves a document under another name. I'd call this a bug. No other file system behaves that silly. You need to turn it off in the file properties (right-click file in Win ExplorerProperties...). There is also an internal read-only mode implemented in the office program (FileSave As... save with password, open read-only with password). But that is another story. The internal flag within the document does not protect the file from being manipulated by other applications and the read-only status is carried with every copy of the file. Well, it seems if one thinks twice about the issue at hand, one must come to the conclusion that what we have now is a good compromise between functionality/security/ease of use. -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Forgive me, but I thought one of the aims of LO was improvements to usability. I open emails mailed to me dozens of times a day. Doing Save-As, or clicking the edit button takes little time I agree, but why is it so wrong to desire that as the default to save me time? On 9 October 2012 10:18, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote: Am 09.10.2012 09:14, Marcello Romani wrote: Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto: OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action? So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ? Sounds good to me. Again, it is not the office program which creates read-only files. In most cases some other application calls the office to *view* some document. In most cases the office is called by a browser, mail client or cloud application to view online content or mail attachments. There are many reasons why this application has a viewing mode. It must not open some document in unsaved template mode just because the file is read-only. That would be extremely annoying for many users. Most of our ODF documents (documentations, print-outs, database forms, reports) are strictly read-only because only one person (me, the file owner) is supposed to modify these. The co-workers can work with the contained material (read, print, mail as PDF, edit databases through forms). All you've got to do is hitting the edit button in order to get an editable new and unsaved document. All you've got to do is saving the same document in your own file system in order to get your own editable copy of the document. Some Microsoft feature carries over the read-only flag when an application saves a document under another name. I'd call this a bug. No other file system behaves that silly. You need to turn it off in the file properties (right-click file in Win ExplorerProperties...). There is also an internal read-only mode implemented in the office program (FileSave As... save with password, open read-only with password). But that is another story. The internal flag within the document does not protect the file from being manipulated by other applications and the read-only status is carried with every copy of the file. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) +1 Regards from Tom :) --- On Tue, 9/10/12, Marcello Romani mrom...@ottotecnica.com wrote: From: Marcello Romani mrom...@ottotecnica.com Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Tuesday, 9 October, 2012, 8:14 Il 08/10/2012 14:13, John Clegg ha scritto: OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action? So that when the user would try to save it a Save As dialog would appear ? Sounds good to me. -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 07/10/2012 20:32, Wolfgang Keller ha scritto: Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc... Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole document and that's it. LibO/OOo already provides this. As did MS Word 5.x for DOS around 1994. MS Word 5.0 for DOS was published in 1989. As the first document processing software in history that couldn't print. Because MS was unable/too lazy to supply printer drivers in time for the release. I'm not saying MS Word for DOS was a good or bad program. My point is even word-processing-for-the-masses programs like MS Word for DOS let the user avoid clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every line of text. Since forever. By using styles. It's called styles. Which incidentally don't provide only formatting information, but also tell the word processor where that particular paragraph (or title) sites in the document hierarchycal structure. The point with MS Word, as (unfortunately) with LO Writer is, that, unlike e.g. Wordperfect or FrameMaker their document model is thoroughly unstructured (spaghetti), and the way styles are implemented they do not allow to emulate structure markup convincingly. Maybe there's a reason why we still have serious publishing software although word processing packages have been aroud for decades now. As soon as you try to author significantly complex documents with it you will notice this. At least if you've ever done similar work with document processing software that does allow to use structure markup. I've used over a dozen different document processing applications over the past 20 years, and from day one I have always used structure markup without even knowing about the expression since for me it was just the natural way to work with documents, but I've never used a document processing software that made structure markup as thoroughly impossible as MS Word or LO/OO. I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other examples are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should not keep the MS Office-style spaghetti content models that were already outdated in the 80s and pile up features on top, but instead LO should focus on providing a functional concept that allows users to work with documents in a more structured and thus more efficient way. MS Office is by far the worst example in the market. And, as such, the example *not* to follow. Are you complaining that OpenDocument format (which not long ago became an ISO standard) uses a spaghetti content model ? Unfortunately, LO/OO is just a 1:1 clone of MS Office. And yes, the MS document model is plain spaghetti, as is LO/OO's. It's a pity, but Ok, so you think ODF document model is spaghetti. Probably it's true. I don't know. We should probably ask TDF about it. that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf. LO/OO clearly doesn't satisfy your needs. Good to know. The problem with Calc is the same, btw: Instead of cloning a good, well designed example (i.e. Lotus Improv), it is just a 1:1 clone of the worst spreadhseet available, i.e. Excel (what an orwellish branding). Sincerely, Wolfgang -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Am 09.10.2012 11:24, John Clegg wrote: Forgive me, but I thought one of the aims of LO was improvements to usability. I open emails mailed to me dozens of times a day. Doing Save-As, or clicking the edit button takes little time I agree, but why is it so wrong to desire that as the default to save me time? As a third option you can tell your mail client to *detach* the attachment instead of viewing it. It is always your mail client which creates the read-only file for good reasons. The main reason is that you lose work when you save your modifications to a temporary file. Just open some attachment for viewing and get office-menu:FileProperties... On the first tab you see the location of the file that has been extracted from text encoded mail box content. It might be a file in a temporary folder. It may have a randomized file name. If it were writable you could edit the file for hours and hours without knowing where all your work gets written to. After a reboot everything could be lost because it is normal behaviour that the temporary directory is cleared on shutdown. It takes some tiny precautions to specify your own file in your own file system where you can recall your saved work. If you are not interested in your own copy of the file because you want to edit and forward via mail then a simple click on the edit button lets you edit, send and close without saving. But then you are aware that you are writing into the memory of your computer without saving to disk. Reportedly, there exists an extension for the Thunderbird mail client which saves all attachments as writable files in a dedicated directory on your own file system. I don't know any details. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 2012-10-09 18:50, Marcello Romani wrote: that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf I might just be something a little bit above a IT moron but using LO Writer to convert doc into pdf appears to me like using a tractor to participate in a F1 race or using an F1 race car to plough a field. Why not installing a pdf-writer SW, there are even free-of-charge versions available. but having a pdf-writer incorporated is one of the nice features of LO. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 2012-10-09 18:24, John Clegg wrote: Forgive me, but I thought one of the aims of LO was improvements to usability. I open emails mailed to me dozens of times a day. Doing Save-As, or clicking the edit button takes little time I agree, but why is it so wrong to desire that as the default to save me time? Now please forgive me but I feel that especially the explanations by Andreas pointed out very clearly that r/w features of a file attached to a mail is caused by the email SW. This means, your request needs to be brought into a discussion forum for email SW. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 05/10/2012 17:18, Marcello Romani ha scritto: Il 05/10/2012 16:31, webmaster-Kracked_P_P ha scritto: On 10/05/2012 10:10 AM, Marcello Romani wrote: Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto: One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an irritant. It's just a modify document button click away. But I guess it's more a problem of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO as such. The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO will just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly. Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm or correct me ? This open as a read only is a security feature from before LO came out. I remembering it doing the same with OpenOffice.org and MSO-2003. The file, at least with Thunderbird, that come in an email attachment is stored in a TEMP folder. Those files are, by nature, read-only till they get saved outside the TEMP [/tmp for Linux] folder. I know it is a hassle for people but I really do not want to have any email attachments placed in a normal data folder without me saving it there. That way I control what gets saved from the email and then all the other stuff is removed with the deletion cycle of the email client's TEMP folder content. We must think safety first and deal with the hassles like this, or could suffer a email that places their attachment file anywhere it wants to be and may be overwrite a working file with the same name or worse a system file. If those files weren't read only there would be other, more serious complaints from users (I had one). The user would doubleclick on an attachment and have it open r/w in OOo/LibO/MSO. He would start modifying it right away (no hassle!), then save it. Then close the word processor and forget about it. Then after a little while go to the IT guy asking where the hell is that document that he just saved. Being readonly, instead, forces the user to click on that damned icon, so the program produces an in-memory r/w copy of the document that will trigger a save as procedure when the user would click save. There was a missing bit in my description: if the attachment would be opened R/W, the file would be saved in the user's temp folder. So it would be lost at best, or in worst case scenario deleted as temp folders gets cleaned. -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action? On 8 October 2012 13:08, Marcello Romani mrom...@ottotecnica.com wrote: Il 05/10/2012 17:18, Marcello Romani ha scritto: Il 05/10/2012 16:31, webmaster-Kracked_P_P ha scritto: On 10/05/2012 10:10 AM, Marcello Romani wrote: Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto: One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an irritant. It's just a modify document button click away. But I guess it's more a problem of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO as such. The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO will just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly. Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm or correct me ? This open as a read only is a security feature from before LO came out. I remembering it doing the same with OpenOffice.org and MSO-2003. The file, at least with Thunderbird, that come in an email attachment is stored in a TEMP folder. Those files are, by nature, read-only till they get saved outside the TEMP [/tmp for Linux] folder. I know it is a hassle for people but I really do not want to have any email attachments placed in a normal data folder without me saving it there. That way I control what gets saved from the email and then all the other stuff is removed with the deletion cycle of the email client's TEMP folder content. We must think safety first and deal with the hassles like this, or could suffer a email that places their attachment file anywhere it wants to be and may be overwrite a working file with the same name or worse a system file. If those files weren't read only there would be other, more serious complaints from users (I had one). The user would doubleclick on an attachment and have it open r/w in OOo/LibO/MSO. He would start modifying it right away (no hassle!), then save it. Then close the word processor and forget about it. Then after a little while go to the IT guy asking where the hell is that document that he just saved. Being readonly, instead, forces the user to click on that damned icon, so the program produces an in-memory r/w copy of the document that will trigger a save as procedure when the user would click save. There was a missing bit in my description: if the attachment would be opened R/W, the file would be saved in the user's temp folder. So it would be lost at best, or in worst case scenario deleted as temp folders gets cleaned. -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.** org users%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** unsubscribe/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/users/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Am 08.10.2012 14:13, John Clegg wrote: OK, if I accept everything that has been said, then why wouldn't opening an in-memory r/w copy be the sensible default action? Tell your mail client, browser, whatever to call soffice with the -n switch. The -n switch treats every document as if it were a template. The builders of your mail client, browser, whatever can not know about this. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc... Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole document and that's it. LibO/OOo already provides this. As did MS Word 5.x for DOS around 1994. MS Word 5.0 for DOS was published in 1989. As the first document processing software in history that couldn't print. Because MS was unable/too lazy to supply printer drivers in time for the release. It's called styles. Which incidentally don't provide only formatting information, but also tell the word processor where that particular paragraph (or title) sites in the document hierarchycal structure. The point with MS Word, as (unfortunately) with LO Writer is, that, unlike e.g. Wordperfect or FrameMaker their document model is thoroughly unstructured (spaghetti), and the way styles are implemented they do not allow to emulate structure markup convincingly. As soon as you try to author significantly complex documents with it you will notice this. At least if you've ever done similar work with document processing software that does allow to use structure markup. I've used over a dozen different document processing applications over the past 20 years, and from day one I have always used structure markup without even knowing about the expression since for me it was just the natural way to work with documents, but I've never used a document processing software that made structure markup as thoroughly impossible as MS Word or LO/OO. I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other examples are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should not keep the MS Office-style spaghetti content models that were already outdated in the 80s and pile up features on top, but instead LO should focus on providing a functional concept that allows users to work with documents in a more structured and thus more efficient way. MS Office is by far the worst example in the market. And, as such, the example *not* to follow. Are you complaining that OpenDocument format (which not long ago became an ISO standard) uses a spaghetti content model ? Unfortunately, LO/OO is just a 1:1 clone of MS Office. And yes, the MS document model is plain spaghetti, as is LO/OO's. It's a pity, but that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf. The problem with Calc is the same, btw: Instead of cloning a good, well designed example (i.e. Lotus Improv), it is just a 1:1 clone of the worst spreadhseet available, i.e. Excel (what an orwellish branding). Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 07/10/2012 at 20:32, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: The point with MS Word, as (unfortunately) with LO Writer is, that, unlike e.g. Wordperfect or FrameMaker their document model is thoroughly unstructured (spaghetti), and the way styles are implemented they do not allow to emulate structure markup convincingly. Could you explain this for those of us who have never used Wordperfect or FrameMaker? I still fail to understand why styles can not emulate structure markup. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
But Ooo/LO does use structure markup. All .odt/.ods documents are XML files. On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc... Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole document and that's it. LibO/OOo already provides this. As did MS Word 5.x for DOS around 1994. MS Word 5.0 for DOS was published in 1989. As the first document processing software in history that couldn't print. Because MS was unable/too lazy to supply printer drivers in time for the release. It's called styles. Which incidentally don't provide only formatting information, but also tell the word processor where that particular paragraph (or title) sites in the document hierarchycal structure. The point with MS Word, as (unfortunately) with LO Writer is, that, unlike e.g. Wordperfect or FrameMaker their document model is thoroughly unstructured (spaghetti), and the way styles are implemented they do not allow to emulate structure markup convincingly. As soon as you try to author significantly complex documents with it you will notice this. At least if you've ever done similar work with document processing software that does allow to use structure markup. I've used over a dozen different document processing applications over the past 20 years, and from day one I have always used structure markup without even knowing about the expression since for me it was just the natural way to work with documents, but I've never used a document processing software that made structure markup as thoroughly impossible as MS Word or LO/OO. I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other examples are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should not keep the MS Office-style spaghetti content models that were already outdated in the 80s and pile up features on top, but instead LO should focus on providing a functional concept that allows users to work with documents in a more structured and thus more efficient way. MS Office is by far the worst example in the market. And, as such, the example *not* to follow. Are you complaining that OpenDocument format (which not long ago became an ISO standard) uses a spaghetti content model ? Unfortunately, LO/OO is just a 1:1 clone of MS Office. And yes, the MS document model is plain spaghetti, as is LO/OO's. It's a pity, but that's the way it is and that's why currently I don't use LO Writer for anything else than for converting .doc files to .pdf. The problem with Calc is the same, btw: Instead of cloning a good, well designed example (i.e. Lotus Improv), it is just a 1:1 clone of the worst spreadhseet available, i.e. Excel (what an orwellish branding). Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Greetings, This thread has been ongoing for a relatively long time now and IMHO it has forked many times and veared off of its original message: that MS was to start renting their software and the lock on users that that implies. Well, as we have been debating all these forked threads, there are other mainstream software suppliers that have also signed on to the software rental business model. Although this is not directly competitive with LO, it is related to the subject and may interest office suite users. I see today in our local big-box office supplies outlet advertisement that Adobe is now renting their mainstream software such as Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Dreamweaver and Adobe Create Cloud. They call it a subscription, but it looks like rental to me. On one listing for example, the subscription for Adobe Photoshop is listed at $59.99 (US) and the rental period is only 3 months! I don't know what Photoshop is selling for since I don't use it, but that seems expensive to me. Maybe I am just cheap or unrealistic in today's market. In all cases, I am *never* going to put my data at the mercy of a corporation - whether it be the cloud or limited-usage rented maintenance tools. I still have the scars from doing that in the past. I'm getting off my soapbox now... Girvin Herr -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote: I thought LO was emulating MSO 97?? Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web downloads, mail attachments). -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote: Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote: I thought LO was emulating MSO 97?? Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web downloads, mail attachments). Why? What if I want to edit it? Are you outlawing collaborative work? I'm confused. Spencer -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/06/2012 11:37 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote: Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote: I thought LO was emulating MSO 97?? Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web downloads, mail attachments). Why? What if I want to edit it? Are you outlawing collaborative work? I'm confused. Spencer Spencer Usually Save As 'will allow you to create an editable version. The issue is security and balancing usefulness and safety. If you are only allowed to open with limited privileges (no macro execution or editing) the possibility of infecting your computer unintentionally with malware is lessened considerably. This gives the users a chance to verify before granting full privileges on their computers. Having cleaned serious malware infections on friends and coworkers computers; the inconvenience is worth the protection. It is not perfect but puts another step in the way of disaster. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Whilst a condom is always wise I still prefer to put it on for myself On 6 October 2012 18:13, Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/06/2012 11:37 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote: Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote: I thought LO was emulating MSO 97?? Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web downloads, mail attachments). Why? What if I want to edit it? Are you outlawing collaborative work? I'm confused. Spencer Spencer Usually Save As 'will allow you to create an editable version. The issue is security and balancing usefulness and safety. If you are only allowed to open with limited privileges (no macro execution or editing) the possibility of infecting your computer unintentionally with malware is lessened considerably. This gives the users a chance to verify before granting full privileges on their computers. Having cleaned serious malware infections on friends and coworkers computers; the inconvenience is worth the protection. It is not perfect but puts another step in the way of disaster. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Jay Lozier wrote: On 10/06/2012 11:37 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote: Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote: I thought LO was emulating MSO 97?? Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web downloads, mail attachments). Why? What if I want to edit it? Are you outlawing collaborative work? I'm confused. Spencer Spencer Usually Save As 'will allow you to create an editable version. The issue is security and balancing usefulness and safety. If you are only allowed to open with limited privileges (no macro execution or editing) the possibility of infecting your computer unintentionally with malware is lessened considerably. This gives the users a chance to verify before granting full privileges on their computers. Having cleaned serious malware infections on friends and coworkers computers; the inconvenience is worth the protection. It is not perfect but puts another step in the way of disaster. I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works on Windows. how would infection occur? (if you download an .exe file in Windows, it wouldn't matter if it's writable, right?) F. -- Felmon Davis A good word costs no more than a bad one. -- B. Googe -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 06/10/2012 at 19:27, Felmon Davis dav...@union.edu wrote: I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works on Windows. how would infection occur? It's rather that in read-only mode, office suite will not run any macros attached to document, despite macro security configuration. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Am 06.10.2012 19:16, John Clegg wrote: Whilst a condom is always wise I still prefer to put it on for myself If you prefer to not choose anything, the other side will take her own precautions. -- Your mail/cloud client creates a *temporary file for viewing* unless you explicitly *downloaded* your own copy of the document. You can never be sure about the life time, location or file name of a temporary file. Your modification on a temporary file will be all lost on restart. If you want an editable file you need to download your own copy to a location and file name of your choice. -- Any other application which allows me to edit a document loaded from a read-only file will not allow me to save the modified document to the same file. It will force me to choose another path-name to store my modifications. -- The application which displays the document loaded from a read-only file is not the application which is responsible for the read-only status of that file. -- LibreOffice never ever modifies the read-write status of any file on your entire file system. It has no means to do such things. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Mirosław Zalewski wrote: On 06/10/2012 at 19:27, Felmon Davis dav...@union.edu wrote: I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works on Windows. how would infection occur? It's rather that in read-only mode, office suite will not run any macros attached to document, despite macro security configuration. thank you for the clear and illuminating answer. F. -- Felmon Davis He is such a steady worker that he is really motionless. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Am 06.10.2012 19:59, Felmon Davis wrote: On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Mirosław Zalewski wrote: On 06/10/2012 at 19:27, Felmon Davis dav...@union.edu wrote: I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works on Windows. how would infection occur? It's rather that in read-only mode, office suite will not run any macros attached to document, despite macro security configuration. thank you for the clear and illuminating answer. F. ... which is plain wrong like so many answers on this particular list. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/06/2012 01:27 PM, Felmon Davis wrote: On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Jay Lozier wrote: On 10/06/2012 11:37 AM, Spencer Graves wrote: On 10/6/2012 6:13 AM, Andreas Säger wrote: Am 05.10.2012 14:09, John Clegg wrote: I thought LO was emulating MSO 97?? Read-only is the only sensible way to open other people's files (web downloads, mail attachments). Why? What if I want to edit it? Are you outlawing collaborative work? I'm confused. Spencer Spencer Usually Save As 'will allow you to create an editable version. The issue is security and balancing usefulness and safety. If you are only allowed to open with limited privileges (no macro execution or editing) the possibility of infecting your computer unintentionally with malware is lessened considerably. This gives the users a chance to verify before granting full privileges on their computers. Having cleaned serious malware infections on friends and coworkers computers; the inconvenience is worth the protection. It is not perfect but puts another step in the way of disaster. I am still not sure how one gets an infection from saving a file as writable. on a Linux system it's not executable, not sure how it works on Windows. how would infection occur? VBS macros in MSO documents have been used to infect Windows computers. The issue is what is good practice regardless of the OS. If you follow good practices, the possibility of problems is significantly reduced. (if you download an .exe file in Windows, it wouldn't matter if it's writable, right?) F. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de wrote: I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features in IMPRESS badly Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly? I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say LO is missing some features, but such statements tend to not be supported by descriptions of features in question. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an irritant. On 5 October 2012 10:00, Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl wrote: On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de wrote: I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features in IMPRESS badly Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly? I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say LO is missing some features, but such statements tend to not be supported by descriptions of features in question. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) I have a similar(ish) issue with files stored on a network share and then read by a mix of Ubuntu and Windows machines. Each time one OS reads it the other can only open read-only. However that forces us to use a simple versioning system and means we always have lots of back-ups. So, it's kinda saving me the hassle of trying to explain why back-ups are a good idea. The default keyboard short-cut Alt F then a to Save As ... is really fiddly Regards from Tom :) From: John Clegg john.cl...@nailsea.net To: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Friday, 5 October 2012, 10:07 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an irritant. On 5 October 2012 10:00, Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl wrote: On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de wrote: I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features in IMPRESS badly Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly? I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say LO is missing some features, but such statements tend to not be supported by descriptions of features in question. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 05/10/12 10:07, John Clegg wrote: whereas Excel opens it as read-write. That behaviour has changed in MS Office 2010 - email attachments are opened as read-only by default.. -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
I thought LO was emulating MSO 97?? On 5 October 2012 13:00, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/10/12 10:07, John Clegg wrote: whereas Excel opens it as read-write. That behaviour has changed in MS Office 2010 - email attachments are opened as read-only by default.. -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.**blogspot.com/http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp:// www.linuxjournal.**com/article/9594#mpart8http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.** org users%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** unsubscribe/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/users/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 29/09/2012 20:10, Wolfgang Keller ha scritto: - actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX Beamer provides. Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but never really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to offer that LO is not capable of. Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc... Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole document and that's it. LibO/OOo already provides this. As did MS Word 5.x for DOS around 1994. It's called styles. Which incidentally don't provide only formatting information, but also tell the word processor where that particular paragraph (or title) sites in the document hierarchycal structure. As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every feature of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current WYSIWYG). I strongly believe that target group of LibreOffice is different than target group of LaTeX. LaTeX is already free, vital community exists, there are dedicated editors - users who prefer LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX. I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other examples are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should not keep the MS Office-style spaghetti content models that were already outdated in the 80s and pile up features on top, but instead LO should focus on providing a functional concept that allows users to work with documents in a more structured and thus more efficient way. MS Office is by far the worst example in the market. And, as such, the example *not* to follow. Are you complaining that OpenDocument format (which not long ago became an ISO standard) uses a spaghetti content model ? Sincerely, Wolfgang -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/05/2012 10:10 AM, Marcello Romani wrote: Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto: One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an irritant. It's just a modify document button click away. But I guess it's more a problem of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO as such. The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO will just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly. Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm or correct me ? This open as a read only is a security feature from before LO came out. I remembering it doing the same with OpenOffice.org and MSO-2003. The file, at least with Thunderbird, that come in an email attachment is stored in a TEMP folder. Those files are, by nature, read-only till they get saved outside the TEMP [/tmp for Linux] folder. I know it is a hassle for people but I really do not want to have any email attachments placed in a normal data folder without me saving it there. That way I control what gets saved from the email and then all the other stuff is removed with the deletion cycle of the email client's TEMP folder content. We must think safety first and deal with the hassles like this, or could suffer a email that places their attachment file anywhere it wants to be and may be overwrite a working file with the same name or worse a system file. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 05/10/2012 16:31, webmaster-Kracked_P_P ha scritto: On 10/05/2012 10:10 AM, Marcello Romani wrote: Il 05/10/2012 11:07, John Clegg ha scritto: One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an irritant. It's just a modify document button click away. But I guess it's more a problem of the web browser or e-mail client rather than OOo/LibO as such. The browser / e-mail client puts a read-only file in the user temp folder, then passes its full path to OOo/LibO for reading. OOo/LibO will just notice it's a readonly file and will behave accordingly. Hopefully someone with more technicall indsight into this can confirm or correct me ? This open as a read only is a security feature from before LO came out. I remembering it doing the same with OpenOffice.org and MSO-2003. The file, at least with Thunderbird, that come in an email attachment is stored in a TEMP folder. Those files are, by nature, read-only till they get saved outside the TEMP [/tmp for Linux] folder. I know it is a hassle for people but I really do not want to have any email attachments placed in a normal data folder without me saving it there. That way I control what gets saved from the email and then all the other stuff is removed with the deletion cycle of the email client's TEMP folder content. We must think safety first and deal with the hassles like this, or could suffer a email that places their attachment file anywhere it wants to be and may be overwrite a working file with the same name or worse a system file. If those files weren't read only there would be other, more serious complaints from users (I had one). The user would doubleclick on an attachment and have it open r/w in OOo/LibO/MSO. He would start modifying it right away (no hassle!), then save it. Then close the word processor and forget about it. Then after a little while go to the IT guy asking where the hell is that document that he just saved. Being readonly, instead, forces the user to click on that damned icon, so the program produces an in-memory r/w copy of the document that will trigger a save as procedure when the user would click save. -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/05/2012 05:07 AM, John Clegg wrote: One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an irritant. On 5 October 2012 10:00, Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl wrote: On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de wrote: I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features in IMPRESS badly Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly? I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say LO is missing some features, but such statements tend to not be supported by descriptions of features in question. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski - This thread has deviated 100% from its initiation, but in its present guise, I offer this, re MSO: I am the editor of a small Newsletter (circulation ~1000) and I am sent copy in .dos format that was made by MSWord on a Mac. Most often, none of the programs I have on Linux will correctly open the files. OO, LO, and Symphony all print the copy pushed off the the right and over the edge of the page margin. Nothing will salvage the file and make it useful. WordPerfect (XP or Win7) will write them perfectly. A similar situation exists for the supposedly universal .rtf files, except they are sometimes even worse to make readable than .doc files. I no longer accept .rtf files at all. --doug -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) If only you could be strict with those people and demand 1. a Pdf so you can see how it's meant to look 2. Images as separate files in image formats 3. The article in .doc format For me that would be just about perfect. Even with .docs the formatting some people fall into is fairly insane but at least i can paste-as-unformatted text and then fix it. If they give the Pdf i stand some chance of getting reasonably close. A local magazine wants us to send them an advert in .doc format and our art-work (logos etc) also in .doc format?!?!!? wtf? Luckily they claim to like scalar vector formats so i'm sending them .EPSs instead. I can't read eps myself (the colours go weird and/or dotty) so it might be interesting to see what result i get. Regards from Tom :) From: Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Friday, 5 October 2012, 18:01 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 10/05/2012 05:07 AM, John Clegg wrote: One feature I miss isn't actually a feature in MSO as such, but LO behaves differently. If I open a spreadsheet from an email or the web it places a copy in the download folder/directory and Calc always opens it read-only whereas Excel opens it as read-write. I would like at least an option to get Calc to open it as read-write. To do so I have to save a copy before I start, and as I do this around 100 times a day it becomes quite an irritant. On 5 October 2012 10:00, Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl wrote: On 04/10/2012 at 12:54, rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de wrote: I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features in IMPRESS badly Could you tell which features do you mean, exactly? I am always interested in such comparisons. People all over the web say LO is missing some features, but such statements tend to not be supported by descriptions of features in question. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski - This thread has deviated 100% from its initiation, but in its present guise, I offer this, re MSO: I am the editor of a small Newsletter (circulation ~1000) and I am sent copy in .dos format that was made by MSWord on a Mac. Most often, none of the programs I have on Linux will correctly open the files. OO, LO, and Symphony all print the copy pushed off the the right and over the edge of the page margin. Nothing will salvage the file and make it useful. WordPerfect (XP or Win7) will write them perfectly. A similar situation exists for the supposedly universal .rtf files, except they are sometimes even worse to make readable than .doc files. I no longer accept .rtf files at all. --doug -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 2012-10-03 11:41, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote: I don't think we need to remove existing features. But I DO think we need to focus on the 90% of average users. Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily. If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch. Absolutely agree. Most of the functionality that MS has added to Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have changed in this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has never been in the SOHO sector. I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at cloud and collaborative usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't ever find out! One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO and sends as MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's happening there because that shouldn't happen. IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by which Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my Wife works for are still on 2003..) Both comments (Tim, Gorden) are valuable. I switched to LO about 6 months ago and like it also I am missing (compared to MSO) a few features in IMPRESS badly I am not the expert to really compare LO features with MSO 97 and 2003. Which version ever is used to be the comparison standard is not that important to me. But what is IMHO important is that all MSO97 features in and all bugs out. But don't take out features which are beyond MSO97 only get the bugs out. LO must become a very solid bug free production tool. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 03/10/2012 11:58, Jay Lozier wrote: On 10/02/2012 07:19 PM, Girvin R. Herr wrote: Jay Lozier wrote: snip From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However, my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database. snip Jay, I use Base as a MySQL client to access my databases, which are mostly inventories. I started with MS Access years ago and switched to MySQL c. 2004, when a MySQL Open Source client (Rekall) finally appeared for Linux. But Rekall stopped being supported a few years later and the version I had still had a few bugs that should have been worked on. When Base started being a general database server client (interfaced to MySQL, etc.) rather than that proprietary database thing that StarOffice used (and may still do so), I looked into switching from Rekall to Base. Doing so was not a trivial task, since all the work I had done on data entry forms and reports in Rekall had to be discarded and that work redone for Base. After recreating all my data entry forms and reports, I got Base to work reasonably well within my requirements. However, the latest version (1.2.1) of Oracle Report Builder (ORB) is a basket case. When it doesn't crash LO, it is dog slow at creating my reports. Too slow to be used. I have just this week, downloaded an Open Source report generator program called DataVision http://datavision.sourceforge.net/ and got it to work on my Slackware Linux system with MySQL. This version, 1.2.0, is rough, many features are not working yet and it does not seem to be supported any more either, since this latest version is dated 2008. However, unlike ORB, it does do what I want a report generator to do - without crashing and at a reasonably fast speed. Since it is an Open Source JAVA program using an Apache license, if any of the Base devs are listening, I suggest they look into taking over DataVision as an addition to Base. Base without a report generator is like a computer program that accepts inputs but does not output anything - useless. Akin to Writer or Calc not printing! Was all my database work, including learning a bit of SQL daunting? Yes, I suppose it was, but it was and is a learning experience and I don't mind learning something new. I am not in the least a SQL master, but I do understand it enough to get by. If not, I hit the books again. There are those who can't or won't learn anything new. For them, there is the Calc tool, which fits their hands better, but maybe isn't quite the best tool for the job. Girvin Herr Girvin, Most people I have talked to about databases find them less intuitive than other typical office and general software. Hi, I am a database user and emphasis on the word *user*. I like learning new stuff too and Base is a challenge. I want LObase to work so I will contribute feedback whenever I can but no more than that because I haven't learnt to code or programme...yet. I have a couple of questions but I will start a new thread for them. Howard -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Am 03.10.2012 09:23, HBarr wrote: Hi, I am a database user and emphasis on the word *user*. I like learning new stuff too and Base is a challenge. I want LObase to work so I will contribute feedback whenever I can but no more than that because I haven't learnt to code or programme...yet. I have a couple of questions but I will start a new thread for them. Howard I am not a database user. I am a database developer. The users of my databases have no problem with Base since all they see is standard form controls. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote: I don't think we need to remove existing features. But I DO think we need to focus on the 90% of average users. Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily. If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch. Absolutely agree. Most of the functionality that MS has added to Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have changed in this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has never been in the SOHO sector. I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at cloud and collaborative usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't ever find out! One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO and sends as MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's happening there because that shouldn't happen. IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by which Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my Wife works for are still on 2003..) -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/03/2012 05:41 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote: I don't think we need to remove existing features. But I DO think we need to focus on the 90% of average users. Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily. If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch. Absolutely agree. Most of the functionality that MS has added to Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have changed in this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has never been in the SOHO sector. I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at cloud and collaborative usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't ever find out! One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO and sends as MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's happening there because that shouldn't happen. IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by which Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my Wife works for are still on 2003..) What I hate is that LO will need a new filter for .docx files since MSO-2013 will have a format not usable to 2007 or 2010 versions. I still have troubles with .docx documents sent to me from one professional in the transportation industry, but she is the only person that will not send out files as .doc instead of .docx - even though I tell her that people/agencies with MSO-2007 will have trouble with her .docx files. She sent out a Press Release that had formatting errors in it, if you viewed it with MSO-2007 or LO. She should have sent that one out as a PDF file. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/03/2012 11:28 AM, Chad Homan wrote: I should be following this tread more closely. But does anyone have links to any M$ sites that spell out the details of the rentals? Also, what happens to people using older versions of office (like officeXP, etc). Will they roll forward into this pricing model? When does this take affect? Join The RVLution http://www.monavie.com/rvlution- Together We Win! -- Chad - I AM MONAVIE Creating A More Meaningful Life Chad Older versions, as I understand, are not affected only the next version and forward are included. If you want the latest features in MSO you will be paying rent but if the older versions still meet your needs then the only reason to consider an upgrade or new office suite is that it is no longer supported. One commenter noted that most SOHO users do not need the collaboration features in MSO (or any office suite). Also, I am not sure that many of the collaboration features are used extensively in large organizations. Its not that the features are bad but how important are they to many, if not most users. The issue for many commercial software vendors is how to get people to buy a new version (or pay for services) when the old version is more than adequate. MS' business model dates from the 1980's but when one can find a FOSS equivalent or an older version that will meet most user needs they have a problem with how to keep customers buying a new release. Many, like MS, are turning to a rental (SaaS) model to keep income levels. This will probably work in the near term but long term I am dubious, there are many commercial and technical issues with the model; at least two dissertations. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Formats, was: Fw: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) Yeh, people are weird sometimes. I'm sure some people would have peaceful pro-war protests or fight for peace given half a chance. One client group claimed they didn't know how to use Save As ... so i sent them screen-shots and then the month after i even visited them to show them by hand. Since then they stopped using our services so their events don't get so widely publicised. I'm not sure it's had a huge effect on them (or us) tbh. Regards from Tom :) - Forwarded Message - From: webmaster-Kracked_P_P hidden snip / I still have troubles with .docx documents sent to me from one professional in the transportation industry, but she is the only person that will not send out files as .doc instead of .docx - even though I tell her that people/agencies with MSO-2007 will have trouble with her .docx files. She sent out a Press Release that had formatting errors in it, if you viewed it with MSO-2007 or LO. She should have sent that one out as a PDF file. snip / -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Renting MS Office (next release), was: Fw: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) I suspect a good place to start might be somewhere like http://www.microsoft.com but it might still only be written for a certain web-browser and might render badly on yours (or even block you). I think they sorted it out now but for ages it just wouldn't work. Regards from Tom :) - Forwarded Message - From: Chad Homan cho...@gmail.com To: Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2012, 16:28 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead I should be following this tread more closely. But does anyone have links to any M$ sites that spell out the details of the rentals? Also, what happens to people using older versions of office (like officeXP, etc). Will they roll forward into this pricing model? When does this take affect? Join The RVLution http://www.monavie.com/rvlution- Together We Win! -- Chad - I AM MONAVIE Creating A More Meaningful Life On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.comwrote: On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote: I don't think we need to remove existing features. But I DO think we need to focus on the 90% of average users. Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily. If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch. Absolutely agree. Most of the functionality that MS has added to Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have changed in this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has never been in the SOHO sector. I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at cloud and collaborative usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't ever find out! One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO and sends as MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's happening there because that shouldn't happen. IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by which Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my Wife works for are still on 2003..) -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.**blogspot.com/http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp:// www.linuxjournal.**com/article/9594#mpart8http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+help@global.libreoffice.** org users%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** unsubscribe/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/users/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/03/2012 01:20 PM, Jay Lozier wrote: /snip/ One commenter noted that most SOHO users do not need the collaboration features in MSO (or any office suite). Also, I am not sure that many of the collaboration features are used extensively in large organizations.sides. I guess I don't understand something here. Almost 20 years ago, I wrote user manuals for equipment I designed, and had the software engineer modify them as required for the user programming requirements. (This was for burglar-alarm systems.) there was no problem using the MS software that existed then--it would mark modifications with red underlines or something similar. I'd just send the copy over the network to my software person, and she would do whatever was necessary, and send the copy back for me to check it and release it. No special collaboration software, but we certainly collaborated. What's the big deal? --doug (Retired RF Engineer) -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 03/10/2012 at 20:23, Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote: I guess I don't understand something here. Almost 20 years ago, I wrote user manuals for equipment I designed, and had the software engineer modify them as required for the user programming requirements. (This was for burglar-alarm systems.) there was no problem using the MS software that existed then--it would mark modifications with red underlines or something similar. I'd just send the copy over the network to my software person, and she would do whatever was necessary, and send the copy back for me to check it and release it. No special collaboration software, but we certainly collaborated. What's the big deal? Have you ever tried to do the same with larger group of recipients, say 6 people? I tried. Some time ago we were writing rather large research report. Each member of team (5 or 6 people) wrote his part, then we pasted it all together and did proofreading. Each member received a copy, marked his changes and sent it back to me. Merging these changes together on ≈170 pages document was the most painful experience I have ever had with any office suite. In such scenarios - and they are not uncommon in larger businesses - anything that eases collaboration of 2 people is a bless. I think that Microsoft Office has real advantage here. Team members are just using Word, without need of gaining any new skills/knowledge. But if it was up to me, I would teach team members to use private wiki or LaTeX + git. I trust these tools more than I trust Microsoft or Google. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 2012-10-03 22:41, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 02/10/12 19:38, Tim Deaton wrote: I don't think we need to remove existing features. But I DO think we need to focus on the 90% of average users. Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily. If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch. Absolutely agree. Most of the functionality that MS has added to Office 2007/2010 has been geared towards the corporate collaborative user, which certainly in my experience (and I have to say my last corporate job was over ten years ago so the playing field may well have changed in this respect) wasn't a key factor in usage, and certainly has never been in the SOHO sector. I believe that Office 2013 is even more aimed at cloud and collaborative usage - although it's highly probable that I shan't ever find out! One of the problems that I've come across is that my daughter uses LO and sends as MS Office 97-2003 documents when emailing. It appears that her recipients get gobbledy-gook so I need to find out what's happening there because that shouldn't happen. IMHO LO is every bit as good as MS Office 97, but then that wasn't a particularly good iteration of MS Office! I think the aim should be to match Office 2003, which still seems to be the current standard by which Office suites are measured. (The very large international company my Wife works for are still on 2003..) Yes, I need to look deeper at LO and sends as or Save as MS Office 97-2003 documents as my kids are complaining their LO docs from home (sends as or Save as MS Office 97-2003) are not opening properly in MO2010 at school. May be MO are doing this to force users to docx and break compatibility with LO. steve -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Jay Lozier wrote: On 10/02/2012 07:19 PM, Girvin R. Herr wrote: snip Girvin, Most people I have talked to about databases find them less intuitive than other typical office and general software. Jay, Yes, I can agree to that. Working with databases is not plug-n-play. It doesn't help when there are strangenesses in SQL that I don't understand the reason why they are there. For example, a while back I ran into a Join problem with at least MySQL joins that if any joined field of a record is null, the join will fail and that record, even though the other fields are valid, will not be in the result set. No warnings or errors are given - it is just missing. That causes missing data, which IMHO is a bad thing. As I said, I am not an SQL expert and maybe there is a way around that action, but I could not find a way by trial and error. I had to go back into all of my records and make sure I had a default value in all the fields that were part of any join. It is my understanding that an expanded version of the Base manual is coming out soon. That will be a help too. With the exception of the Report Builder, Base works quite well as far as I use it, but the documentation is sparse and there is a lot of trial and error involved to get what I want. I am looking forward to the new version. Of course, it is not within the scope of a Base manual to teach SQL, but since Base relies heavily on SQL and some Base functions require some SQL writing, some simple examples of how to use those Base features would be appreciated by all users. There are some examples in the manuals already, but it could use some expansion. Otherwise, the Base user base will continue to be minimal. Users need help to understand the concepts and make Base usable for them and their projects. Otherwise, they will continue to use Calc. I am sure the frustration level can be high for newbies and many would give up on Base, even though it would be the correct tool for them to use. I might have done so too, if it were not that I have a lot invested in my databases and I am now locked in to maintaining them. Another good idea might be to add to the manual a Further Reference list of recommended books to read for more information. I would start a MySQL list with the MySQL Reference Manual, which comes with most MySQL packages and is on the MySQL website and is available in paper from O'Reilly Community Press. That should be mandatory reading for all new MySQL users. Also, I have found the Teach Yourself SQL in 24 Hours book by Ryan Stephens and Ron Plew of value. (I have no affiliation with either of these authors or publishers.) Girvin -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/03/2012 02:23 PM, Doug wrote: On 10/03/2012 01:20 PM, Jay Lozier wrote: /snip/ One commenter noted that most SOHO users do not need the collaboration features in MSO (or any office suite). Also, I am not sure that many of the collaboration features are used extensively in large organizations.sides. I guess I don't understand something here. Almost 20 years ago, I wrote user manuals for equipment I designed, and had the software engineer modify them as required for the user programming requirements. (This was for burglar-alarm systems.) there was no problem using the MS software that existed then--it would mark modifications with red underlines or something similar. I'd just send the copy over the network to my software person, and she would do whatever was necessary, and send the copy back for me to check it and release it. No special collaboration software, but we certainly collaborated. What's the big deal? --doug (Retired RF Engineer) Doug, MSO has some tools designed for real-time collaborative document production that allow distributed groups to work on the same document and track each person's edits, etc. I have not used these features; primarily because I never needed to use them. Thus I do not know how well they work. The implicit assumption is that all users can have simultaneous access to the same document version. Some the editing features such as track all changes are sometimes useful for a large document. What you are describing is not what MS is trying to push. Often what is needed for collaboration is what you are describing: create, edit, revise, (edit, revise), release. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 24/09/2012 17:15, Mirosław Zalewski ha scritto: On 24/09/2012 at 16:48, webmaster-Kracked_P_P webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: We need to keep it with the needed options for the 90% average users and not for those that are in the last 10% or even those in the last 1% or less users that do so complex work that the average user could not figure out why this is being done or even how to do such a thing even with the needed documentation. I totally disagree. If user is unable to do something he wants with open documentation, then this is documentation fault. It should be fixed (made clear, verbose, use screenshots or anything), not feature should be disabled. There are many ways to speed up opening of programs. Some features may be delayed or loaded on request. Application can be modularized - core features are loaded by default, other are loaded only if user wants them (take a look at LaTeX, GNU R, Miranda (instant messenger), even Mozilla Firefox to some avail). *Removing* features is total no-go, because it will drive away these users who need them. And I don't think that LO is application only for 90% of it's current users. As much as I hate me too! e-mails... +1 ;P -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 18/09/2012 21:38, Jay Lozier ha scritto: [...] The rental model, in theory, guarantees a stabler cash flow whether the software rental is good for users is another matter. I totally agree. At $WORK we had a 3D CAD package that would not work anymore if the licence was not renewed periodically. We eventually switched to a 3D package that had a heftier tag price, but didn't force us to pay every year just to use it. When the licence for the first package expired, we lost access to all of our previous work. We had to convert everything in a hurry. It's OK to pay for software maintenance (i.e. updates, priority support, etc.), but I find it totally unacceptable to have a software package just stop working if you don't pay the rent. If I was writing in italian I'd call it pizzo - which is a mafia thing - Stop paying and you'll lose access to your beloved documents!. How does it sound ? -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) I think that renting could result in better software because it eliminates the excuse that major bugs are only fixed in the newer release. At the moment MS can claim that it's the users fault if they suffer a bug because they should buy the new release. While they probably still will do that it will be easier for users to just stop paying for the current release. At the moment people have to keep using the current/old one in order to make the initial expense worth it. Effectively the rental model levels the playing field between OpenSource and MS's proprietary stuff. Well, it levels it a little bit at least. It takes away some of the advantage that OpenSource currently enjoys. How quickly that all plays out is a different issue. MS probably haven't thought about it just yet. OTH that may be exactly part of their 'sinister plan' (It's not really sinister, they just need to make a profit) Regards from Tom :) From: Marcello Romani mrom...@ottotecnica.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2012, 7:32 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead Il 18/09/2012 21:38, Jay Lozier ha scritto: [...] The rental model, in theory, guarantees a stabler cash flow whether the software rental is good for users is another matter. I totally agree. At $WORK we had a 3D CAD package that would not work anymore if the licence was not renewed periodically. We eventually switched to a 3D package that had a heftier tag price, but didn't force us to pay every year just to use it. When the licence for the first package expired, we lost access to all of our previous work. We had to convert everything in a hurry. It's OK to pay for software maintenance (i.e. updates, priority support, etc.), but I find it totally unacceptable to have a software package just stop working if you don't pay the rent. If I was writing in italian I'd call it pizzo - which is a mafia thing - Stop paying and you'll lose access to your beloved documents!. How does it sound ? -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Il 02/10/2012 13:51, Tom Davies ha scritto: Hi :) I think that renting could result in better software because it eliminates the excuse that major bugs are only fixed in the newer release. At the moment MS can claim that it's the users fault if they suffer a bug because they should buy the new release. While they probably still will do that it will be easier for users to just stop paying for the current release. At the moment people have to keep using the current/old one in order to make the initial expense worth it. You miss the main point: you stop paying, you lose the ability to read, write and modify your documents. I don't see how user will have a chance to stop paying. But maybe I'm just missing some important detail. Effectively the rental model levels the playing field between OpenSource and MS's proprietary stuff. Well, it levels it a little bit at least. It takes away some of the advantage that OpenSource currently enjoys. How quickly that all plays out is a different issue. MS probably haven't thought about it just yet. OTH that may be exactly part of their 'sinister plan' (It's not really sinister, they just need to make a profit) Regards from Tom :) As far as I understood MS rental model until now, I think FOSS will increase its advantage. On the proprietary side, users will have something they'll _have_ to pay, not ste^H^H download at will (and I'm not thinking only about joe home user), while OOo will be free and available forever, in whatever current or previous version the user prefers (security patches aside). From: Marcello Romani mrom...@ottotecnica.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2012, 7:32 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead Il 18/09/2012 21:38, Jay Lozier ha scritto: [...] The rental model, in theory, guarantees a stabler cash flow whether the software rental is good for users is another matter. I totally agree. At $WORK we had a 3D CAD package that would not work anymore if the licence was not renewed periodically. We eventually switched to a 3D package that had a heftier tag price, but didn't force us to pay every year just to use it. When the licence for the first package expired, we lost access to all of our previous work. We had to convert everything in a hurry. It's OK to pay for software maintenance (i.e. updates, priority support, etc.), but I find it totally unacceptable to have a software package just stop working if you don't pay the rent. If I was writing in italian I'd call it pizzo - which is a mafia thing - Stop paying and you'll lose access to your beloved documents!. How does it sound ? -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Marcello Romani -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
I don't think we need to remove existing features. But I DO think we need to focus on the 90% of average users. Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily. If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch. -- Tim Deaton === On 10/2/2012 2:45 AM, Marcello Romani wrote: Il 24/09/2012 17:15, Mirosław Zalewski ha scritto: On 24/09/2012 at 16:48, webmaster-Kracked_P_P webmas...@krackedpress.com wrote: We need to keep it with the needed options for the 90% average users and not for those that are in the last 10% or even those in the last 1% or less users that do so complex work that the average user could not figure out why this is being done or even how to do such a thing even with the needed documentation. I totally disagree. If user is unable to do something he wants with open documentation, then this is documentation fault. It should be fixed (made clear, verbose, use screenshots or anything), not feature should be disabled. There are many ways to speed up opening of programs. Some features may be delayed or loaded on request. Application can be modularized - core features are loaded by default, other are loaded only if user wants them (take a look at LaTeX, GNU R, Miranda (instant messenger), even Mozilla Firefox to some avail). *Removing* features is total no-go, because it will drive away these users who need them. And I don't think that LO is application only for 90% of it's current users. As much as I hate me too! e-mails... +1 ;P -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/02/2012 02:38 PM, Tim Deaton wrote: I don't think we need to remove existing features. But I DO think we need to focus on the 90% of average users. Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily. If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch. -- Tim Deaton === +1 on focus. We often forget that average user only uses part of the features available MSO of LO. The problem is that how of the features are used by the average user. Is it 50%, or 80% or some other fraction but with each user typical using about 20 - 30 % of the features. This may be wrong list. Does anyone know which features are extensively used and which ones users want? And then compare the two with features of various MSO versions. My suspicion is that most people do not use new features found in MSO 2007 and later. I am not sure about 97, 2000, or XP. Personally, I doubt I use any feature found in a version later than XP and possibly even earlier. In fact the only feature that would be absolute show stopper for me is handling MSO/MSOX formats. I have to open and files to others using MSO(X) formats regularly and LO has been excellent at handling them for me. From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However, my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database. snip -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
The only other addition to MSO-97 would be the 2007/2010/2013 versions of their x formats and any other file formats that might be used now by MSO or other software. On 10/02/2012 03:55 PM, Jay Lozier wrote: On 10/02/2012 02:38 PM, Tim Deaton wrote: I don't think we need to remove existing features. But I DO think we need to focus on the 90% of average users. Basically, I think LO should be making sure it can do everything that MS Office 97 (15-year-old software) could do, and do it just as well and just as easily. If LO could do THAT, it would eat Microsoft's lunch. -- Tim Deaton === +1 on focus. We often forget that average user only uses part of the features available MSO of LO. The problem is that how of the features are used by the average user. Is it 50%, or 80% or some other fraction but with each user typical using about 20 - 30 % of the features. This may be wrong list. Does anyone know which features are extensively used and which ones users want? And then compare the two with features of various MSO versions. My suspicion is that most people do not use new features found in MSO 2007 and later. I am not sure about 97, 2000, or XP. Personally, I doubt I use any feature found in a version later than XP and possibly even earlier. In fact the only feature that would be absolute show stopper for me is handling MSO/MSOX formats. I have to open and files to others using MSO(X) formats regularly and LO has been excellent at handling them for me. From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However, my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database. snip -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Jay Lozier wrote: snip From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However, my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database. snip Jay, I use Base as a MySQL client to access my databases, which are mostly inventories. I started with MS Access years ago and switched to MySQL c. 2004, when a MySQL Open Source client (Rekall) finally appeared for Linux. But Rekall stopped being supported a few years later and the version I had still had a few bugs that should have been worked on. When Base started being a general database server client (interfaced to MySQL, etc.) rather than that proprietary database thing that StarOffice used (and may still do so), I looked into switching from Rekall to Base. Doing so was not a trivial task, since all the work I had done on data entry forms and reports in Rekall had to be discarded and that work redone for Base. After recreating all my data entry forms and reports, I got Base to work reasonably well within my requirements. However, the latest version (1.2.1) of Oracle Report Builder (ORB) is a basket case. When it doesn't crash LO, it is dog slow at creating my reports. Too slow to be used. I have just this week, downloaded an Open Source report generator program called DataVision http://datavision.sourceforge.net/ and got it to work on my Slackware Linux system with MySQL. This version, 1.2.0, is rough, many features are not working yet and it does not seem to be supported any more either, since this latest version is dated 2008. However, unlike ORB, it does do what I want a report generator to do - without crashing and at a reasonably fast speed. Since it is an Open Source JAVA program using an Apache license, if any of the Base devs are listening, I suggest they look into taking over DataVision as an addition to Base. Base without a report generator is like a computer program that accepts inputs but does not output anything - useless. Akin to Writer or Calc not printing! Was all my database work, including learning a bit of SQL daunting? Yes, I suppose it was, but it was and is a learning experience and I don't mind learning something new. I am not in the least a SQL master, but I do understand it enough to get by. If not, I hit the books again. There are those who can't or won't learn anything new. For them, there is the Calc tool, which fits their hands better, but maybe isn't quite the best tool for the job. Girvin Herr -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 10/02/2012 07:19 PM, Girvin R. Herr wrote: Jay Lozier wrote: snip From the comments on the list, the weakest part of LO is Base. However, my observation is most people find learning any true database daunting and thus do not learn how to use any database. Compounding this is the fact many MSO packages do not include Access. Many thus use a spreadsheet as a poor man's substitute for a proper database. snip Jay, I use Base as a MySQL client to access my databases, which are mostly inventories. I started with MS Access years ago and switched to MySQL c. 2004, when a MySQL Open Source client (Rekall) finally appeared for Linux. But Rekall stopped being supported a few years later and the version I had still had a few bugs that should have been worked on. When Base started being a general database server client (interfaced to MySQL, etc.) rather than that proprietary database thing that StarOffice used (and may still do so), I looked into switching from Rekall to Base. Doing so was not a trivial task, since all the work I had done on data entry forms and reports in Rekall had to be discarded and that work redone for Base. After recreating all my data entry forms and reports, I got Base to work reasonably well within my requirements. However, the latest version (1.2.1) of Oracle Report Builder (ORB) is a basket case. When it doesn't crash LO, it is dog slow at creating my reports. Too slow to be used. I have just this week, downloaded an Open Source report generator program called DataVision http://datavision.sourceforge.net/ and got it to work on my Slackware Linux system with MySQL. This version, 1.2.0, is rough, many features are not working yet and it does not seem to be supported any more either, since this latest version is dated 2008. However, unlike ORB, it does do what I want a report generator to do - without crashing and at a reasonably fast speed. Since it is an Open Source JAVA program using an Apache license, if any of the Base devs are listening, I suggest they look into taking over DataVision as an addition to Base. Base without a report generator is like a computer program that accepts inputs but does not output anything - useless. Akin to Writer or Calc not printing! Was all my database work, including learning a bit of SQL daunting? Yes, I suppose it was, but it was and is a learning experience and I don't mind learning something new. I am not in the least a SQL master, but I do understand it enough to get by. If not, I hit the books again. There are those who can't or won't learn anything new. For them, there is the Calc tool, which fits their hands better, but maybe isn't quite the best tool for the job. Girvin Herr Girvin, Most people I have talked to about databases find them less intuitive than other typical office and general software. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Tanstaafl wrote: On 2012-09-27 3:08 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote: I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account. Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't require any extension at all. http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=99358#sunbird I don't see anything about Lightning/Thunderbird support... If it actually does work in Thunderbird+Lightning, do you know if it works properly interacting with Meeting Requests/Invitations/Updates from users using Outlook/Exchange? The current Thunderbird+Lightning+Provider for Google Calendar doesn't (works halfway, but Updates are totally broken)... I just tried those directions with Thunderbird Lightning, without the provider. The calendar won't sync. I have been using both Seamonkey and Thunderbird with Lighting and Provider for Google Calendar, for about a year, and it works well for me. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 30/09/12 16:55, James Knott wrote: I just tried those directions with Thunderbird Lightning, without the provider. The calendar won't sync. Been using the CalDav method for about six months now, ever since I started getting problems with the Google Calendar add-in. Works perfectly OK her for me. (Tbird 15.01, lightning 1.7 on Ubuntu 12.04) -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 30/09/12 16:55, James Knott wrote: I just tried those directions with Thunderbird Lightning, without the provider. The calendar won't sync. Been using the CalDav method for about six months now, ever since I started getting problems with the Google Calendar add-in. Works perfectly OK her for me. (Tbird 15.01, lightning 1.7 on Ubuntu 12.04) I'm using Thunderbird 15 Lighting 1.7 on openSUSE 12.1. There's an exclamation mark in a yellow triangle on my Google calendar. When I move the mouse pointer over the calendar, I get a pop up The calendar Google is momentarily not available. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 30/09/12 17:08, James Knott wrote: There's an exclamation mark in a yellow triangle on my Google calendar. When I move the mouse pointer over the calendar, I get a pop up The calendar Google is momentarily not available. That's exactly was happening to me with the Google Calendar add-in! -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
May I suggest to discuss the Google calender issue in a different thread? On 2012-09-30 19:17, Steve Edmonds wrote: On 2012-10-01 05:12, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 30/09/12 17:08, James Knott wrote: There's an exclamation mark in a yellow triangle on my Google calendar. When I move the mouse pointer over the calendar, I get a pop up The calendar Google is momentarily not available. That's exactly was happening to me with the Google Calendar add-in! I have Opensuse 12.2, Thunderbird 15.0, Lightning 1.7, Provider 0.16 and my Google calendars are working fine. Steve -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
- actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX Beamer provides. Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but never really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to offer that LO is not capable of. Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc... Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole document and that's it. As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every feature of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current WYSIWYG). I strongly believe that target group of LibreOffice is different than target group of LaTeX. LaTeX is already free, vital community exists, there are dedicated editors - users who prefer LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX. I just cited LaTeX as one example for structure markup. Other examples are Wordperfect or Framemaker. My point is that LO should not keep the MS Office-style spaghetti content models that were already outdated in the 80s and pile up features on top, but instead LO should focus on providing a functional concept that allows users to work with documents in a more structured and thus more efficient way. MS Office is by far the worst example in the market. And, as such, the example *not* to follow. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
As an engineer, now retired, I used BASIC for many years, then took a class in Pascal and wrote some code in Pascal. You are correct-- all I wanted, in almost all cases, was command-line input and screen or print (or both) output. I first wrote BASIC on a teletype machine connected by acoustic modem to a mainframe somewhere in Texas. Obviously at that time, Python wasn't available yet. ;-) X-( Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 29/09/2012 at 20:10, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: Everything that you get from LaTeX: structure markup instead of spaghetti formatting, parameterized formatting, etc... Instead of clicking through dozens of dialogboxes for each and every line of text, slide title, list item, figure, etc. to get everything the way you want it, you just change a few parameters once for the whole document and that's it. That's where styles, templates, master slides etc. comes in. Haven't you heard of them? They give you ability to define paragraphs by their meaning in document structure and change parameters once for the whole document. As far as I know, you can apply direct formatting in LaTeX as well. But this is possible, not necessary. Even if LO encourages users to use direct formatting (by exposing icons on toolbar), it is still totally optional. Or did I miss the part where you pointed out advantages of LaTeX approach to document structure in comparison to LO? -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 18/09/2012 at 20:13, Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote: Note, too, that the old argument, I bought it, so it's mine, will be out the window--if it's rented, it clearly is not yours to copy, etc. As far as I remember, it was never yours. Most EULAs forbid e.g. reselling of box copy. They clearly state that they grant you right to use software, nothing more. Depends on legislation jurisdiction in the relevant country. Over here where I currently subsist, Microsofts' EULA is afaik essentially illegal and irrelevant. Especially concerning the reselling interdiction. This has been ruled out in court something like two decades ago or so. The most irrelevant part of Microsoft's EULA is the one that states that if any clause of the EULA is invalidated in court, all other clauses shall still apply. Because it's afaik a very basic principle of jurisdiction over here that if the judge considers any clause of an EULA (or any other contract) as deliberately abusive, then the entire contract is invalid as a whole and the court will establish the rules to apply. I'm not a lawyer, however. I've just read an article written by some lawyer about the subject a long time ago. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
What language one first learns is often determined by what is used in the Introduction to Programming courses and of course when you took the course. I know a few colleges used VB for their introductory course in the States. If I was looking for a university for studying computer science, this would already disqualify them. ;- I know of Canadian university that use Python. What type of programming you do determines the language you tend use and find in your work place. Python is for free and runs essentially on anything that deserves the designation operating system. Heck, it even runs on that market-leading non-operating system from that corporation based in Seattle. So you can find it anywhere you work. Whether one learned VB depends on ones situation and needs. I have done some VBA programming because where I worked need some automation of spreadsheet calculations for Excel spreadsheets. On Windows, Python can be used to script anything that has a COM interface. I've already used it for scripting Excel, among others. My intro to programming was originally in Fortran IV (aka Fortrash) and later Pascal. I started with Pascal, then went on to Fortran. I deliberately forgot all the C that I had to learn to pass an exam. Python is the only programming/scripting language that I learned of my own choice. Simply because it's the only language that I know of that does what I need: Cross-platform, ad-hoc scripting as well as full-scale programming, interfacing with anything that has any kind of interface, syntax made for humans, loads of libraries for essentially any application... Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 09/28/2012 03:46 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: On 18/09/2012 at 20:13, Doug dmcgarr...@optonline.net wrote: Note, too, that the old argument, I bought it, so it's mine, will be out the window--if it's rented, it clearly is not yours to copy, etc. As far as I remember, it was never yours. Most EULAs forbid e.g. reselling of box copy. They clearly state that they grant you right to use software, nothing more. Depends on legislation jurisdiction in the relevant country. Over here where I currently subsist, Microsofts' EULA is afaik essentially illegal and irrelevant. Especially concerning the reselling interdiction. This has been ruled out in court something like two decades ago or so. The most irrelevant part of Microsoft's EULA is the one that states that if any clause of the EULA is invalidated in court, all other clauses shall still apply. Because it's afaik a very basic principle of jurisdiction over here that if the judge considers any clause of an EULA (or any other contract) as deliberately abusive, then the entire contract is invalid as a whole and the court will establish the rules to apply. I'm not a lawyer, however. I've just read an article written by some lawyer about the subject a long time ago. Sincerely, Wolfgang The severability clause in a contract is enforceable in some jurisdictions under contract law. In the US some states have consumer protection laws that may invalidate part of a standard contract for the state residents. If the standard EULA has clause voided by state law those clauses are replaced by the applicable law and the rest of the EULA is left in force. Usually the US contracts have some wording about state laws superseding the contract if the laws are favorable to the consumer. This is done to avoid 50 slightly different warranties/EULA's. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 24/09/12 20:03, James Knott wrote: Syncing Lightning with Google Calendar requires an add-on such as Provider for Google Calendar. No it doesn't - and the latest version of Calendar Sync is a bit flakey. You can use Caldav instead which doesn't need an add-on. http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=99358#sunbird -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote: I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account. Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't require any extension at all. http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=99358#sunbird -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
All the best LibO folks, This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also useful -- but back to the basic question! Microsoft is going to change their behavior. Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying. It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and expresses your foolishness. LibO only have to accept it. Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without remarkable problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly. That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to pay what ever the cost. What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable share oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer and also deliver something better than the MS's Office suit it's Access included -- equal is far away from enough. Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced - seldom use more than a 2-5% of the LibO's (MSO's) features. Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure that at least these work properly -- Base included. If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to use -- and especially it's help function understandable for every new user -- then there is no larger future for LibO except for a small group of idealists and enthusiasts in their own little kindergarten. I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy. If the goal seems clear and clever then then the resources will at least not disappear. Pertti Rönnberg On 27.9.2012 10:08, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote: I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account. Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't require any extension at all. http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=99358#sunbird -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) On the contrary. MS do not fix their problems quickly at all. Even known malware threats remain for months and even years. Their strategy is to blame the users. A typical one being to tell users they shouldn't be using macros because of the likelihood of getting an infected or corrupted one. Read The Emperor’s New Clothes. People are told that MS Office is the best and so when they find problems with it they tend to blame themselves rather than the software. For example when using non-MS software someone would quite happily slate the product with this sort of thing I opened my document and deleted tons of stuff and saved it using the same name. now when i open the document it has all that stuff missing! The stupid program can't even find the stuff that i deleted. No, of course i don't have a back-up of the file before my deletions One problem that has never been solved is that when creating an MS document the style keeps randomly changing without the user doing anything noticeable. So, the language keeps switching to US. Bullet-points and numbering styles keep changing. So in a bulleted list the points keep changing shape, size and amount they are indented by. Numbered lists may well miss a few numbers or repeat a few or suddenly change from i), ii) to c), d) or other weirdness. People have learned to accept all this shoddiness from Word because it happens to so many people. Really advanced users have learned to re-impose formatting after completing a document or just accept it. Spelling has gone out the window not just because of the MTV generation but also because MS's spell-checker keeps switching languages back into American (US) so things that are correct are sometimes given a red-wriggle and sometimes blatantly incorrect spellings are not found. LibreOffice tends to stick to the same style throughout, unless the user has deliberately changed styles and is aware of having done so. So, bullet-points line-up and retain the same size. Likewise with numbered lists. Another problem is the way Word can't handle images with much sophistication. MS produce a different product for people to buy. Publisher. Most of the functionality of publisher wouldn't be needed if Word wasn't such a Pos. Writer handles most things that Publisher does with more elegance and sophistication. Another problem is the limited choices when exporting to Pdf. I often get posters and stuff from Word users that probably looked quite good at their end but the jpg compression has made a mad swirly mess of it. LibreOffice allows you to set the type of compression and even allows people to create uncompressed Pdfs. Pdfs can be created with various levels of integration with screen-readers for blind-users. MS Word has limited options. So, LO already is a far better product in many, many ways but people have learned to accept problems with MS stuff and are even happy when their machine is heavily infected with malware that results from using MS junk. Just my opinion and doubtless many people, especially the BoD disagree. Regards from Tom :) From: Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 14:04 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead All the best LibO folks, This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also useful -- but back to the basic question! Microsoft is going to change their behavior. Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying. It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and expresses your foolishness. LibO only have to accept it. Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without remarkable problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly. That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to pay what ever the cost. What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable share oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer and also deliver something better than the MS's Office suit it's Access included -- equal is far away from enough. Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced - seldom use more than a 2-5% of the LibO's (MSO's) features. Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure that at least these work properly -- Base included. If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to use -- and especially it's help function understandable for every new user -- then there is no larger future for LibO except for a small group of idealists and enthusiasts in their own little kindergarten. I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy. If the goal seems clear and clever
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 27/09/12 13:16, Tanstaafl wrote: On 2012-09-27 3:08 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote: I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account. Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't require any extension at all. http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=99358#sunbird I don't see anything about Lightning/Thunderbird support... If you click on the Sunbird link it also says Lightning - I'm using it here in Lightning 1.7 If it actually does work in Thunderbird+Lightning, do you know if it works properly interacting with Meeting Requests/Invitations/Updates from users using Outlook/Exchange? The current Thunderbird+Lightning+Provider for Google Calendar doesn't (works halfway, but Updates are totally broken)... It /seems/ to - my wife sends me invites and updates from Outlook via an Exchange server and it seems to work OK... -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 2012-09-27 10:14 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote: If you click on the Sunbird link it also says Lightning - I'm using it here in Lightning 1.7 Ah, ok, thanks... Hmmm... we are using Thunderbird ESR here at the office, and it is stuck at Lightning 1.2.3... I wonder what version of Lightning fully supports CalDav... my wife sends me invites and updates from Outlook via an Exchange server and it seems to work OK... Good to know... I'll play with it when I have a few spare CPU cycles (maybe sometime in 2015?)... ;) -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) Does Caldev sync to Google? If so then it's a winner imo. This all seems a little off-topic since LO doesn't have a calendar but since calendars are included in competitors equivalent and because calendars are often quite useful to people working with office packages it would be good to know and have good answers about this sort of thing for people in the future. Regards from Tom :) From: Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 8:08 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote: I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account. Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't require any extension at all. http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=99358#sunbird -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
. Publisher. Most of the functionality of publisher wouldn't be needed if Word wasn't such a Pos. Writer handles most things that Publisher does with more elegance and sophistication. Another problem is the limited choices when exporting to Pdf. I often get posters and stuff from Word users that probably looked quite good at their end but the jpg compression has made a mad swirly mess of it. LibreOffice allows you to set the type of compression and even allows people to create uncompressed Pdfs. Pdfs can be created with various levels of integration with screen-readers for blind-users. MS Word has limited options. So, LO already is a far better product in many, many ways but people have learned to accept problems with MS stuff and are even happy when their machine is heavily infected with malware that results from using MS junk. Just my opinion and doubtless many people, especially the BoD disagree. Regards from Tom :) *From:* Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi *To:* users@global.libreoffice.org *Sent:* Thursday, 27 September 2012, 14:04 *Subject:* Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead All the best LibO folks, This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also useful -- but back to the basic question! Microsoft is going to change their behavior. Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying. It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and expresses your foolishness. LibO only have to accept it. Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without remarkable problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly. That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to pay what ever the cost. What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable share oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer and also deliver something better than the MS's Office suit it's Access included -- equal is far away from enough. Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced - seldom use more than a 2-5% of the LibO's (MSO's) features. Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure that at least these work properly -- Base included. If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to use -- and especially it's help function understandable for every new user -- then there is no larger future for LibO except for a small group of idealists and enthusiasts in their own little kindergarten. I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy. If the goal seems clear and clever then then the resources will at least not disappear. Pertti Rönnberg On 27.9.2012 10:08, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote: I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account. Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't require any extension at all. http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=99358#sunbird -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org mailto:h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) I agree that Base seems a bit of a mess but if you follow Andreas' guidance then it hopefully works better. There are other people on this list that are great at helping with Base but he seems better at giving a better over-view of Base. Most of the problems appear to be with wizards and stuff. Also it's a very different thing than Access so trying to wrap your head around the basic concept is a major Pita. I wouldn't migrate your databases from Access to Base just yet. Just settle in with the rest of LO first. Base doesn't seem to have so many devs working on it as the other apps but it may gain a few in a month or so. The docs team are working on an excellent handbook for Base which may help people understand it better and once you understand the basic ideas it's really quite exciting (imo). Tons of potential but needs a good pruning before it can really grow. Impress is also not so great at the moment but at least it's easier to understand what you want from it and it kinda makes sense. Again, seems to have less devs than Writer or Calc. Draw seems to be more popular and seems to gain more attention for the increases in it's functionality. Generally i would avoid the early release in any branch. I like to try them but only on one of my own systems, not on any of my colleagues. It's good to try the x.x.0 - x.x.3 but just for your own benefit, to post bug-reports against and hopefully catch the interest of the most possible devs before they move on to other things (such as the next branch). Each branch becomes much more stable by the x.x.4 and from then on just increases in stability without gaining much extra functionality. Better stability means you are less likely to find something that needs to have a bug-report posted. The x.x.6 tends to be very solid. Think of that 3rd number as a Service Pack but divide by 2 because MS only goes up to Sp3. I suspect the recalculation in Calc might be a memory issue? Perhaps try Tools - Options - Memory and bump a lot of those values up. Also look in Tools - Options - Calc to see if something weird is in there. There is a key that forces recalculation but i don't know it. The in-built help files are not as useful as the official documentation. You can get the latest and even pre-release guides from https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications Some of the 3.3.x guides have been translated into a few other languages but not many. To get the in-built help you have to download it and then install after installing the main part of LO. For example the 2nd 'button' on http://www.libreoffice.org/download/?type=win-x86lang=en-GBversion=3.5.6 Note that you can choose from many other languages. That link is for English (Gb/Uk) but for my colleagues i have added Gujaratii, Italian, Japanese and more so that different logins on those machines can have different languages. I definitely agree that LO needs to far exceed MS Office in order to even get looked at. In many ways i think it is far better but i can admit that it does have apparent weaknesses that are more likely to be noticed than the good stuff. It's the same for people from any minority group. If you are 10 times better but they notice 1 thing they think is odd then they focus on the 1 thing. However, as Gandhi said First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win so don't be discouraged. I think LO has pushed things from a decade of being stifled in step 1 into somewhere between 2 3 and in some places (such as Brasil) step 4 already! When migrating away from MSO it's usually better to keep using it but gradually use LO more but at the start only for a few things or even just one or two things until you get more familiar with the difference. Regards from Tom :) From: Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 18:27 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead Hi Tom, Thank you for a very informative answer - it is bad that all this is not mentioned as a basic info about LibO. I am prepared to trust it as true but honestly I have to rely on my own experiences both regarding Win/MSO and LibO. I have been using Windows and many of MS programs since early 1980: all of the modules in the MSO suite, Access, Publisher, Visio, Project, etc never any problems with installing never need to send any kind of bug reports never any need to contact any community/list for help cannot remember not one machine crash when using Windows-MS-programs no courses, no teachers in using Windows/MS programs -- I had no problems to learn all by my self mostly thanks to a good help function
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
) so things that are correct are sometimes given a red-wriggle and sometimes blatantly incorrect spellings are not found. LibreOffice tends to stick to the same style throughout, unless the user has deliberately changed styles and is aware of having done so. So, bullet-points line-up and retain the same size. Likewise with numbered lists. Another problem is the way Word can't handle images with much sophistication. MS produce a different product for people to buy. Publisher. Most of the functionality of publisher wouldn't be needed if Word wasn't such a Pos. Writer handles most things that Publisher does with more elegance and sophistication. Another problem is the limited choices when exporting to Pdf. I often get posters and stuff from Word users that probably looked quite good at their end but the jpg compression has made a mad swirly mess of it. LibreOffice allows you to set the type of compression and even allows people to create uncompressed Pdfs. Pdfs can be created with various levels of integration with screen-readers for blind-users. MS Word has limited options. So, LO already is a far better product in many, many ways but people have learned to accept problems with MS stuff and are even happy when their machine is heavily infected with malware that results from using MS junk. Just my opinion and doubtless many people, especially the BoD disagree. Regards from Tom :) From: Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 14:04 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead All the best LibO folks, This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also useful -- but back to the basic question! Microsoft is going to change their behavior. Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying. It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and expresses your foolishness. LibO only have to accept it. Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without remarkable problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly. That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to pay what ever the cost. What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable share oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer and also deliver something better than the MS's Office suit it's Access included -- equal is far away from enough. Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced - seldom use more than a 2-5% of the LibO's (MSO's) features. Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure that at least these work properly -- Base included. If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to use -- and especially it's help function understandable for every new user -- then there is no larger future for LibO except for a small group of idealists and enthusiasts in their own little kindergarten. I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy. If the goal seems clear and clever then then the resources will at least not disappear. Pertti Rönnberg On 27.9.2012 10:08, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 26/09/12 12:01, webmaster-Kracked_P_P wrote: I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account. Don't need any of those for Google Calendar - you can use Caldav which doesn't require any extension at all. http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=99358#sunbird -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 09/27/2012 09:04 AM, Pertti Rönnberg wrote: All the best LibO folks, This discussion about calendars etc. may be interesting perhaps also useful -- but back to the basic question! Microsoft is going to change their behavior. Let us remember that MS is the absolute market leader -- they can't be totally wrong when having 95% and people accept paying. It is no use blaming MS for success -- it is only waste of energy and expresses your foolishness. LibO only have to accept it. I think the original issue raised was the MS pricing strategy of an annual license with perpetual updates and whether this model made sense for many users. Updates and upgrades can be buggy. More importantly is do users need to upgrade because they already are using a limited set of features/capabilities. The problem MS faces is getting users to buy new versions when the old version is perfectly adequate. Other than the msox formats and the life-cycle expiring (no security patches), many users would not need to upgrade at all. This may be a marketing blunder long term because users may start migrating away from MSO to other options such as LO, AOO, Calligra, or Google Docs as they start looking at replacement costs. Whether you like it or not MS's programs use to work without remarkable problems - and if such happens MS fixes them rather quickly. That is why people and especially companies seem to be prepaired to pay what ever the cost. Part of MS' problems is that they have been historical not very security conscious in the past. Even though they have improved some do not fully believe some of the old mindset is gone. Also, I have never found out how one reports bugs to MS. What I have tried to say is that if LibO wants to get a reasonable share oh this cake -- free of charge or not -- then LibO must offer and also deliver something better than the MS's Office suit it's Access included -- equal is far away from enough. Part of the problem is what the users actually need versus what is included. Access represents a special issue because many MSO users do have Access because it is not included in the version they purchased. Working with relational databases and NoSQL databases I dislike both Access and Base. I know Base can be used as a front end for many relational databases and I believe Access also can be a front end. Some of you said that ordinary users -- and even more experienced - seldom use more than a 2-5% of the LibO's (MSO's) features. Why not then identify the 30% of all most used features and make sure that at least these work properly -- Base included. Base is still a bit of a mess if you use the embedded backend and wizards. If you use a different database it seems to be tolerable. If LibO cannot be made at least as stable, free of bugs and easy to use -- and especially it's help function understandable for every new user -- then there is no larger future for LibO except for a small group of idealists and enthusiasts in their own little kindergarten. I see this as a question of defining priorities - and a strategy. I understand the goal of LO (and AOO) is to provide a FOSS alternative to MSO that fits the needs of most users. If the goal seems clear and clever then then the resources will at least not disappear. Pertti Rönnberg -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 09/24/2012 03:03 PM, James Knott wrote: Tom Davies wrote: For my colleagues it would be nice to have a Calendar that is easier to find and integrate, for example. But i haven't found any sort of calendar, either on-screen or off, that works for me I use Lightning with Thunderbird and Seamonkey. I also sync it with Google Calenar, so I have it on my computers, tablet and smart phone. Google Calendar can also be accessed with any browser. Syncing Lightning with Google Calendar requires an add-on such as Provider for Google Calendar. I have seen listings on Mozilla's archive system for an extension to help with the syncing to a Google account. I have them somewhere. . . . . Here they are. I remembered I had them on the NA-DVD but did not add links to them in the Lightning section of the Extras page. I have never used them since I do not have a Google mail or calendar account [I think]. http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-win32-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-linux-1.3/gdata-provider.xpihttp://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-linux-1.3/ http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-linux-1.3/gdata-provider.xpigdata-provider.xpi http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-linux-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-mac-1.3/ http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-mac-1.3/gdata-provider.xpigdata-provider.xpi http://libreoffice-na.us/English-3.5-installs/extras-folders/thunderbird-lighting/lightning-mac-1.3/gdata-provider.xpi . -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of macros would be the second group Objection. The point is that those people who actually use office software in companies have absolutely no influence on what they work with. It's the manangsters and administrictators who (pretend to) decide about this. because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they languages they learned as an undergraduate) I don't know any scientist or engineer who has ever learned Visual Basic at university. And I know only *very* few who have *ever* learned it at all. and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not programming. A lot of scientists and engineers, if they use any scripting/programming languages for software automation etc. tend to prefer languages that provide an interactive commandline interpreter, besides other criteria that VBA doesn't fulfil. A lot of those I know have learned Python as their genuine bread and butter scripting programming language. Some even learn it as a first language at university these days. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Most features one needs have been include in office suites since the some time in the 90's. I can not think of a feature that I want see implemented that is not already implemented. Objection. instead of braindeadly cloning MS features, which are mostly based on cerebral flatulances emanating from product managers and similar pointy-haired lifeforms, free software should imho instead demonstrate how to increase user productivity by focusing on intelligent functional concepts. For example: - genuine structure markup, like e.g. Wordperfect or Framemaker provide. Instead of the spaghetti document model of MS Word. - readable typesetting, such as e.g. LaTeX provides. - possibilities to structure spreadsheets (like e.g. Lotus 1-2-3 did or Quantrix Modeler still provides), use symbolic variable names (same examples to follow) and a reasonably human-readable formula syntax instead of the nestable-functional spaghetti mess à la Excel. - actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX Beamer provides. - etc. and so on Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 25/09/2012 at 17:52, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: - actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX Beamer provides. Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but never really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to offer that LO is not capable of. As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every feature of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current WYSIWYG). I strongly believe that target group of LibreOffice is different than target group of LaTeX. LaTeX is already free, vital community exists, there are dedicated editors - users who prefer LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
+1 Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
HI :) +1 It might be nice to have an Extension that allows people to import LaTeX or have a program that can export a LaTeX document to Odf but it's not something that many people would use. I doubt it would even be usefully possible. A lot of the advantage of the format would be lost when converting it. A far better example than my stupid earlier one of spell checkers. Many of us have probably never even heard of LaTeX but are somewhat reliant on decent spell checkers (ie NOT the MS ones). Regards from Tom :) From: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Tuesday, 25 September 2012, 17:37 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 25/09/2012 at 17:52, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: - actually useful formatting concepts for presentations like e.g. LaTeX Beamer provides. Could you elaborate? I don't know Beamer (I have heard the name, but never really used it) and I am interested in knowing what it has to offer that LO is not capable of. As side note of my question: I don't think that LO should mimic every feature of LaTeX, especially WYSIWYM approach (instead of current WYSIWYG). I strongly believe that target group of LibreOffice is different than target group of LaTeX. LaTeX is already free, vital community exists, there are dedicated editors - users who prefer LaTeX approach can just use LaTeX. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 09/25/2012 11:51 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of macros would be the second group Objection. The point is that those people who actually use office software in companies have absolutely no influence on what they work with. It's the manangsters and administrictators who (pretend to) decide about this. because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they languages they learned as an undergraduate) I don't know any scientist or engineer who has ever learned Visual Basic at university. And I know only *very* few who have *ever* learned it at all. and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not programming. A lot of scientists and engineers, if they use any scripting/programming languages for software automation etc. tend to prefer languages that provide an interactive commandline interpreter, besides other criteria that VBA doesn't fulfil. A lot of those I know have learned Python as their genuine bread and butter scripting programming language. Some even learn it as a first language at university these days. Sincerely, Wolfgang As an engineer, now retired, I used BASIC for many years, then took a class in Pascal and wrote some code in Pascal. You are correct-- all I wanted, in almost all cases, was command-line input and screen or print (or both) output. I first wrote BASIC on a teletype machine connected by acoustic modem to a mainframe somewhere in Texas. Eventually I went to work for an outfit that had an HP desktop-- a great big machine about 3 feet high that saved files on cassette tape, and used HP-BASIC, which was a bit more powerful than the standard. Finally there was a company that had a CPM machine, and I could do standard BASIC in house. That's also where I first wrote Pascal. It wasn't Borland, it was somebody else's, I don't remember the name. When PCs became affordable, Borland's Pascal came out, and it was nice, especially at first, before they complicated it! The nearest thing I ever got to graphics was a batch of xxx pr *** marks printed on a sheet of paper! Crude graphics indeed, but you could see the general shape of a filter characteristic. I never wanted to learn Visual Basic or the Pascal equivalent--I forget what it was called. I was too busy doing engineering, and the tool that I had was sufficient at the time. That's not to say that I didn't use commercial graphical programs when they came out. I made a great deal of use of them, but I also realized that a whole lot of hours and a lot of abstruse math went into them, and that's not what I was there to do. EEsof's Touchstone and the AutoCAD programs saved a tremendous amount of time and breadboarding, and I'm sure they paid for themselves, even at their exorbitant prices. --doug -- Blessed are the peacekeepers...for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M. Greeley -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 09/25/2012 11:51 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of macros would be the second group Objection. The point is that those people who actually use office software in companies have absolutely no influence on what they work with. It's the manangsters and administrictators who (pretend to) decide about this. because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they languages they learned as an undergraduate) I don't know any scientist or engineer who has ever learned Visual Basic at university. And I know only *very* few who have *ever* learned it at all. and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not programming. A lot of scientists and engineers, if they use any scripting/programming languages for software automation etc. tend to prefer languages that provide an interactive commandline interpreter, besides other criteria that VBA doesn't fulfil. A lot of those I know have learned Python as their genuine bread and butter scripting programming language. Some even learn it as a first language at university these days. Sincerely, Wolfgang Wolfgang What language one first learns is often determined by what is used in the Introduction to Programming courses and of course when you took the course. I know a few colleges used VB for their introductory course in the States. I know of Canadian university that uses Python. What type of programming you do determines the language you tend use and find in your work place. Whether one learned VB depends on ones situation and needs. I have done some VBA programming because where I worked need some automation of spreadsheet calculations for Excel spreadsheets. We did light process design and project management in the office I was at. My intro to programming was originally in Fortran IV (aka Fortrash) and later Pascal. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 18/09/12 20:38, Jay Lozier wrote: I suspect most users do not use much outside the common core features of any office suite (LO, AOO, MSO, etc) You suspect correctly. In any organisation, home use etc, the usual statistic is that 80% of users only use 20% of the functionality (I'm a retired Systems Accountant and have seen that more or less in most places I've worked, from a 2-man advertising agency to a couple of large quoted companies...and MOST places don't use VBA or Macros at all, which is the usual excuse for keeping MS and not moving to OO/LO...) -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) Even though they don 't use advanced features they still tend to feel they do. There seems to be an inverse correlation between the skill level and knowledge of the user and the amount they feel they use advanced features. Take Andreas for example. An extremely sophisticated and skilled user that thinks whipping up a few databases before breakfast is no big deal. Compare to the average office manager that needs to hire in IT consultants to reboot a router, involving sending a memo to all staff and re-arranging people's schedules, a planningstrategy meeting to set-up a team, a call-out for an engineer to look at the router and report back to the team that we need to buy a more advanced router (that turns out to be a down-grade) and can only buy this particular one from him but somehow involves postal charges from Norway. Since so much work and effort went into switching the thing off and then on again from then on they think that rebooting a router is obviously extremely complex. Obviously almost anyone on this list would have just pressed the on/off switch a couple of times and waited a couple of minutes after each action. The result being that even if they didn't know it before they do realise that it's a trivial task. Hence the more advanced users are, the more they tend to think most of what they do is trivial. Far less advanced users are often a bit precious and assume they are always doing advanced stuff even though they aren't. Regards from Tom :) From: Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Monday, 24 September 2012, 11:11 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 18/09/12 20:38, Jay Lozier wrote: I suspect most users do not use much outside the common core features of any office suite (LO, AOO, MSO, etc) You suspect correctly. In any organisation, home use etc, the usual statistic is that 80% of users only use 20% of the functionality (I'm a retired Systems Accountant and have seen that more or less in most places I've worked, from a 2-man advertising agency to a couple of large quoted companies...and MOST places don't use VBA or Macros at all, which is the usual excuse for keeping MS and not moving to OO/LO...) -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) I was sure Miro was right. The last MS Eula i read was quite a long time ago and i vaguely remember it having all sorts of shocking things such as writer's not owning work they had done using the software and other stuff that just really shouldn't stand up in court. Perhaps i got a joke one but i'm sure it was from the MS site. Regards from Tom :) From: Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Monday, 24 September 2012, 11:08 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 18/09/12 19:49, Miros?aw Zalewski wrote: Most EULAs forbid e.g. reselling of box copy. They clearly state that they grant you right to use software, nothing more. Not so. Extract from EULA for Office 2010: TRANSFER TO A THIRD PARTY. The first user of the software may make a one-time transfer of the software and this agreement, by transferring the genuine proof of license directly to a third party. The first user must remove the software before transferring it separately from the licensed device. The first user may not retain any copies of the software. Before any permitted transfer, the other party must agree that this agreement applies to the transfer and use of the software. If the software is an upgrade, any transfer must also include all prior versions of the software. -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 09/24/2012 06:11 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 18/09/12 20:38, Jay Lozier wrote: I suspect most users do not use much outside the common core features of any office suite (LO, AOO, MSO, etc) You suspect correctly. In any organisation, home use etc, the usual statistic is that 80% of users only use 20% of the functionality (I'm a retired Systems Accountant and have seen that more or less in most places I've worked, from a 2-man advertising agency to a couple of large quoted companies...and MOST places don't use VBA or Macros at all, which is the usual excuse for keeping MS and not moving to OO/LO...) Gordon, +1 Most features one needs have been include in office suites since the some time in the 90's. I can not think of a feature that I want see implemented that is not already implemented. I can remember when spell checking was the user looking up the word in a dead tree dictionary. So the problem with commercial suites is how to get users to buy a new version when the current version is probably overkill. My observations on macros are: 1. most people do not know any programming and do not wish to learn any programming. More accurately, they will not learn any programming. Thus they will never write their own macro and will only use macros provided, if any. Since the macros they use are canned, they would only notice differences in look and feel not in the actual code and would only care that the macro worked. 2. those who can write macros are mostly not professional programmers but users who probably learned programming elsewhere. Many engineers and scientists probably fall into this category, they learned programming in college (my case Fortran and Pascal). Often, their macros were written for their purposes not because of some perceived business requirement. 3. the professional programmers who write macros probably know several languages so they should be able to learn another. Unless they are selling commercial products, they could be suite agnostic, e.g. they only want to know what the suite is (API's) and its macro language(s). I believe LO supports several different languages for scripting - I saw Python and JavaScript listed. My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of macros would be the second group because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they languages they learned as an undergraduate) and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not programming. When I was writing macros for MSO, I was firmly in the second category but I have migrated to a situation closer to the third category. Because macros are a potential malware vector, I believe macro execution requires more user interaction before a foreign macro will execute. Thus, I would consider other ways to implement macro functionality if I needed one for a large number of people in most situations. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 09/24/2012 06:42 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Even though they don 't use advanced features they still tend to feel they do. There seems to be an inverse correlation between the skill level and knowledge of the user and the amount they feel they use advanced features. Take Andreas for example. An extremely sophisticated and skilled user that thinks whipping up a few databases before breakfast is no big deal. Compare to the average office manager that needs to hire in IT consultants to reboot a router, involving sending a memo to all staff and re-arranging people's schedules, a planningstrategy meeting to set-up a team, a call-out for an engineer to look at the router and report back to the team that we need to buy a more advanced router (that turns out to be a down-grade) and can only buy this particular one from him but somehow involves postal charges from Norway. Since so much work and effort went into switching the thing off and then on again from then on they think that rebooting a router is obviously extremely complex. Obviously almost anyone on this list would have just pressed the on/off switch a couple of times and waited a couple of minutes after each action. The result being that even if they didn't know it before they do realise that it's a trivial task. Hence the more advanced users are, the more they tend to think most of what they do is trivial. Far less advanced users are often a bit precious and assume they are always doing advanced stuff even though they aren't. Regards from Tom :) Interesting point. I think the average user tends to either, as you suggest, over estimate their skills and knowledge or are utterly fearful of the computer/program not working. From: Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Monday, 24 September 2012, 11:11 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 18/09/12 20:38, Jay Lozier wrote: I suspect most users do not use much outside the common core features of any office suite (LO, AOO, MSO, etc) You suspect correctly. In any organisation, home use etc, the usual statistic is that 80% of users only use 20% of the functionality (I'm a retired Systems Accountant and have seen that more or less in most places I've worked, from a 2-man advertising agency to a couple of large quoted companies...and MOST places don't use VBA or Macros at all, which is the usual excuse for keeping MS and not moving to OO/LO...) -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) Thanks :) I think average can be used in different ways. If we take the meaning where it's the highest number of users then the average user tends to have extremely low ability and tends to be very fearful in a passive-aggressive way = Don't touch it!!! You might break because i don't understand what you are doing and therefore you can't possibly understand it either. After all, they can produce a letter, therefore they are fully skilled and know everything worth knowing, right? (or are you telling them they are a moron?). Regards from Tom :) From: Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Monday, 24 September 2012, 13:39 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 09/24/2012 06:42 AM, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Even though they don 't use advanced features they still tend to feel they do. There seems to be an inverse correlation between the skill level and knowledge of the user and the amount they feel they use advanced features. Take Andreas for example. An extremely sophisticated and skilled user that thinks whipping up a few databases before breakfast is no big deal. Compare to the average office manager that needs to hire in IT consultants to reboot a router, involving sending a memo to all staff and re-arranging people's schedules, a planningstrategy meeting to set-up a team, a call-out for an engineer to look at the router and report back to the team that we need to buy a more advanced router (that turns out to be a down-grade) and can only buy this particular one from him but somehow involves postal charges from Norway. Since so much work and effort went into switching the thing off and then on again from then on they think that rebooting a router is obviously extremely complex. Obviously almost anyone on this list would have just pressed the on/off switch a couple of times and waited a couple of minutes after each action. The result being that even if they didn't know it before they do realise that it's a trivial task. Hence the more advanced users are, the more they tend to think most of what they do is trivial. Far less advanced users are often a bit precious and assume they are always doing advanced stuff even though they aren't. Regards from Tom :) Interesting point. I think the average user tends to either, as you suggest, over estimate their skills and knowledge or are utterly fearful of the computer/program not working. From: Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Monday, 24 September 2012, 11:11 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 18/09/12 20:38, Jay Lozier wrote: I suspect most users do not use much outside the common core features of any office suite (LO, AOO, MSO, etc) You suspect correctly. In any organisation, home use etc, the usual statistic is that 80% of users only use 20% of the functionality (I'm a retired Systems Accountant and have seen that more or less in most places I've worked, from a 2-man advertising agency to a couple of large quoted companies...and MOST places don't use VBA or Macros at all, which is the usual excuse for keeping MS and not moving to OO/LO...) -- Registered Linux User no 240308 GBP's alternative computing:http://gbplinuxfoss.blogspot.com/ Say No to OOXMLhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9594#mpart8 I only accept odf or pdf documents by email -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
Hi :) I think there is another category between 1 and 2. 1.3 People that are completely clueless about macros or any programming concepts but try to use some sort of macro-recorder and then blame other people when their macro doesn't work. Since they haven't anticipated or prepared for anything being even slightly different on users machines their macros quite often go wrong until users learn to follow some arcane and archaic ritual in order to use the macro. This group tends to find the need to 'write' macros for everything however unnecessary and however easier it is to accomplish the same thing without using a macro. The arcane ritual is blamed on macros and gives the impression that macros are more difficult than they really are and they are quite complicated enough without adding that layer of FUD. It bolsters the opinion that the writer must be really skilful in being able to understand macros, oh they surely deserve to be promoted. Wow!! I guess i am having a really bad hair day! Regards from Tom :) From: Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Monday, 24 September 2012, 13:31 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead On 09/24/2012 06:11 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 18/09/12 20:38, Jay Lozier wrote: I suspect most users do not use much outside the common core features of any office suite (LO, AOO, MSO, etc) You suspect correctly. In any organisation, home use etc, the usual statistic is that 80% of users only use 20% of the functionality (I'm a retired Systems Accountant and have seen that more or less in most places I've worked, from a 2-man advertising agency to a couple of large quoted companies...and MOST places don't use VBA or Macros at all, which is the usual excuse for keeping MS and not moving to OO/LO...) Gordon, +1 Most features one needs have been include in office suites since the some time in the 90's. I can not think of a feature that I want see implemented that is not already implemented. I can remember when spell checking was the user looking up the word in a dead tree dictionary. So the problem with commercial suites is how to get users to buy a new version when the current version is probably overkill. My observations on macros are: 1. most people do not know any programming and do not wish to learn any programming. More accurately, they will not learn any programming. Thus they will never write their own macro and will only use macros provided, if any. Since the macros they use are canned, they would only notice differences in look and feel not in the actual code and would only care that the macro worked. 2. those who can write macros are mostly not professional programmers but users who probably learned programming elsewhere. Many engineers and scientists probably fall into this category, they learned programming in college (my case Fortran and Pascal). Often, their macros were written for their purposes not because of some perceived business requirement. 3. the professional programmers who write macros probably know several languages so they should be able to learn another. Unless they are selling commercial products, they could be suite agnostic, e.g. they only want to know what the suite is (API's) and its macro language(s). I believe LO supports several different languages for scripting - I saw Python and JavaScript listed. My guess the group that complains the most about switching because of macros would be the second group because they only know a few languages at most (VBA and what they languages they learned as an undergraduate) and do not want to learn another since their primary function is not programming. When I was writing macros for MSO, I was firmly in the second category but I have migrated to a situation closer to the third category. Because macros are a potential malware vector, I believe macro execution requires more user interaction before a foreign macro will execute. Thus, I would consider other ways to implement macro functionality if I needed one for a large number of people in most situations. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: MS raised prices so people will now start renting their office products instead
On 09/24/2012 09:17 AM, Mirosław Zalewski wrote: On 24/09/2012 at 14:31, Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com wrote: I can not think of a feature that I want see implemented that is not already implemented. Lucky you. 1. I want to put chapter name in page header, but I want to limit too long text, if it appears. At least two work-arounds exist, but they are far from being plain and simple: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7t=56445 2. In template, I would like to create paragraph style assigned to list style which will start at second (or another) list level. You must use tab manually: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42920 3. In automatically generated Table of contents I want dots from chapter name to page number. But I want some space between these dots, let's say 0.25cm. I couldn't achieve that. 4. If you need exact control of footnotes + separator line + line margins height on page basis (and I do), then you must create different page style for each page with footnotes. If you document is longer than few pages this is really tiresome. 5. I would like to see generated content for character styles. This way I could select text, assign quote character style and get quotation marks before and after placed automatically. If I ever decide to use italic for quotes, these marks should disappear. I should be able to do this from Styles and formatting window. 6. I use italics for quotations. If I put quote in quote, then it should be normal text instead of italics. (5 and 6 are trivial in CSS.) These are few ideas out of top of my head, just for Writer (which I use the most). Perhaps there could be other things as well. With improved table autoformat in 3.6 we finally have some kind of usable table styles. With Zotero we can have sensible bibliography in documents. Right now LibreOffice is better than ever, but there are still some features missing. Miroslaw, You are correct there always more that can be done for some users. But for most users, many who do not know about the editing features you are referring to, the feature set they use is essentially from the 90's. I know I do not use many of the features of Write, mostly because I do very little actual document writing and what writing I do tends to be simple documents closer to a short office memo. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
