Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: You know very well that Rossi has never shown the slightest inclination to do anything like that. Many variants of that idea have been proposed to Rossi and he has refused them all . . . This is true. He has emphatically refused. I agree there is no chance he will sell a single unit. He will never allow tests. He has said that the next customer is not inclined to keep the thing secret. I believe him. He has been truthful about things like this. He has often kept secrets but when he has revealed details about his business they have been true, as far as I know. . . . using mostly tangential and irrelevant arguments. I do not recall that he has made any arguments. He says it is his decision not to sell single units and not to allow tests. He does not give a reason. He is not obligated to give one. It is his business. I am pretty sure the reason is because he wants to keep a low profile. He wants enough people to believe it is real to attract customers, but not so many that it attracts competition or attention from the authorities. He does not want the DoE to think it is real. I wouldn't want that either, if I were him. Heck, I wouldn't want that, being me. The longer they stay out, the better. Only the DoD is helpful. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On 23/12/11 14:40, Jed Rothwell wrote: I am pretty sure the reason is because he wants to keep a low profile. He wants enough people to believe it is real to attract customers, but not so many that it attracts competition or attention from the authorities. He does not want the DoE to think it is real. I wouldn't want that either, if I were him. Heck, I wouldn't want that, being me. The longer they stay out, the better. Only the DoD is helpful. - Jed I can see the reasoning behind that but what baffles me is if that is the case then why even set up in the US? Of all places that's got to be the worse place. He would have been better off keeping it in Europe until everything / he is ready to go global with it. I really hope that this secret customer (who is supposedly is also helping him sort out problems and develop the high temperature version) really benefits Rossi's plans and doesn't screw him one they are finished.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Energy Liberator wrote: I can see the reasoning behind that but what baffles me is if that is the case then why even set up in the US? Because he like the U.S. He likes being here. And he had terrible experiences in Italy. There is a lot to like about the U.S. despite the DoE. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
From Jed: ... I am pretty sure the reason is because he wants to keep a low profile. He wants enough people to believe it is real to attract customers, but not so many that it attracts competition or attention from the authorities. He does not want the DoE to think it is real. I wouldn't want that either, if I were him. Heck, I wouldn't want that, being me. The longer they stay out, the better. Only the DoD is helpful. In Rossi's case, trying to maintain a low profile is a delicate business tactic that has limited shelf life. Eventually, I would imagine deception tactics of this nature, where one deliberately attempts to insinuate through deliberate inaction the possibility that their controversial technology is invalid, will fall apart as the technology essentially validates itself via through normal market conditions and the competition catches wind. Obviously, Rossi knows this all too well. I believe Rossi has essentially said so in different words ways. Still, the longer Rossi can continue to insinuate to the general public the possibility that his technology might be invalid (and especially to potential competition) he increases his chances of sealing additional business deals from a few select businesses that have performed their own due diligence. Incidentally, I suspect many of those businesses may also, for strategic competitive business reasons of their won, not be in any hurry to destroy Rossi's charade. This is, however, a delicate business tactic that I suspect is not easily mastered. On a similar tact, I believe our own flawed intelligence gathering eventually concluded that Saddam had attempting to insinuate to his adversaries a belief that he possessed WMDs while simultaneously trying to convince the US that he didn't. In Saddam's case, he got mixed results. We invaded Iraq. Actually, I don't think there was anything Saddam could have done (or insinuated truthfully or not truthfully) to have kept the evil eye of the military industrial complex out of his country, but that is definitely another OT discussion. All I can say is that in Rossi case, I hope he fares better. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: In Rossi's case, trying to maintain a low profile is a delicate business tactic that has limited shelf life. Yup. It is a delaying tactic. [This] will fall apart as the technology essentially validates itself via through normal market conditions and the competition catches wind. Obviously, Rossi knows this all too well. I believe Rossi has essentially said so in different words ways. Yes, he has said this. He said that when the world learns of this there will be a Niagara of competition. He has never said I am trying to sow doubt in so many words. Saying that would defeat the purpose. I am pretty sure that is what he's doing. Nothing else makes sense. He is no fool, and he does not do things without a reason. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: In Rossi's case, trying to maintain a low profile is a delicate business tactic that has limited shelf life. Yup. It is a delaying tactic. Can you think of a recent spectacular innovation that has been marketed by deliberately acting in a way that suggests it can't and doesn't work? By acting in a way that suggests investor fraud?
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Can you think of a recent spectacular innovation that has been marketed by deliberately acting in a way that suggests it can't and doesn't work? Toyota's plug in Prius. Toyota kept saying existing model is not designed for plug-in mode; they do not recommend it; it will take a complete redesign. They were trying to stall off the add-on market. They succeeded. Then they introduced their own plug-in hybrid which it turns out is not such a major redesign. They developed it in what you might call semi-stealth mode. Periodically they would show prototypes on the seven o'clock news. They leased out a few cars the government offices, the same way Rossi is selling a few reactors. Enough to keep their names in the public eye, but not enough to cannibalize present sales, frighten the competition, or ramp up expectations too soon. They kept saying this upcoming model is a complete redesign, it will be years before is available, and the present model is not suitable for this technology . . . until, boom, there it was. IBM did that often in the old days when they owned 80% of the market. The ploy was: You can't do that; it is technically impossible; is beyond state-of-the-art; stop talking about it . . . here it is folks. When Rossi gets intellectual property protection, sufficient funding, and he is ready to ramp up production I expect he will market the thing openly, and stop trying to sow doubt. Until then he will be in stealth mode. This strategy taken to this extreme is unusual, but everything about cold fusion is unusual. The situation is unparalleled. Trying to sell something without a patent is close to impossible. No one has ever tried to sell a small nuclear reactor in the face of opposition from the fossil fuel industry (the richest, most powerful, and most ruthless industry on earth), the DoE, the academic scientific establishment, and thousands of nitwit bloggers. By acting in a way that suggests investor fraud? Rossi is not acting in a way that suggests investor fraud. This is your imagination. All of the indications you have pointed to either indicate nothing, or they are common to both legitimate businesses and frauds. As I said before: You said that having a web site and an order form is suspicious. All companies have web sites and order forms. You said there is nothing in the order form that indicates other people have ordered the product before. Order forms never indicate that. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
From Mary Yugo: Can you think of a recent spectacular innovation that has been marketed by deliberately acting in a way that suggests it can't and doesn't work? By acting in a way that suggests investor fraud? It's all in the eye of the beholder. The point I think you gloss over is the apparent fact that Rossi is not deliberately (or overtly) ...acting in a way that suggests investor fraud. Rossi is instead employing passive-tactics indirectly... through his inaction he conveniently allows individuals like you who are predisposed to assume the worst in others to make such assumptions all by yourself. In other words, you are actually helping Rossi's business strategy by your continued actions of casting dispersions of doubt and fraud on Rossi's part. It helps give Rossi a competitive edge against all forms of potential competitors who may read and buy into your incessant insinuations. Keep in mind, in matters of warfare employing deception and disinformation are crucial tactics used in winning wars. Why would you think that running a competitive businesses would be any different? Since I gather you are a skeptic, I would suggest that understanding this alone might be another reason why you might want to consider toning down your campaign against Rossi, because for the moment you are probably helping Rossi's business strategy more than you might realize. You do not appear to know much history, such as in matters of self-serving business deception tactics. Here's additional nefarious information on Toyota's Deception and evasion tactics: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36391413/ns/business-autos/t/toyotas-legal-tacti cs-deception-evasion/#.TvTeC2Ffl8E http://tinyurl.com/clu3lb6 .and here's an interesting essay from someone who has pondered the matter of employing tactics of deception as used both in warfare and in business strategies. http://www.2-speed.com/2006/10/applying-military-strategy-and-tactics-to-bus iness-deception/ http://tinyurl.com/57yj6g His last paragraph, I think, bears repeating: Certainly, deception in the form of outright lying and cheating is a dead-end strategy. It might work out in the short term, but it's going to get you in trouble in the long term. Defined a bit softer, though, as a method for manipulating or spinning reality (I know, I'm cutting this a bit thin, but you get the idea), it is almost as powerful a tool in business as it is in warfare and is one that can be employed to increase your opportunities for success. Quite frankly, Mary, you continue to make incredibly ignorant remarks. It's back to the kill file with you. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: In Rossi's case, trying to maintain a low profile is a delicate business tactic that has limited shelf life. Yup. It is a delaying tactic. [This] will fall apart as the technology essentially validates itself via through normal market conditions and the competition catches wind. Obviously, Rossi knows this all too well. I believe Rossi has essentially said so in different words ways. Yes, he has said this. He said that when the world learns of this there will be a Niagara of competition. He has never said I am trying to sow doubt in so many words. Saying that would defeat the purpose. I am pretty sure that is what he's doing. Nothing else makes sense. He is no fool, and he does not do things without a reason. - Jed I suspect he does not want to take the risk of an independently tested ecat behaving erractically. He fears the published results would make his commercial promises look silly, even if the basic energy producing claims are validated. Harry harry
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
I wrote: Can you think of a recent spectacular innovation that has been marketed by deliberately acting in a way that suggests it can't and doesn't work? Toyota's plug in Prius. Toyota kept saying existing model is not designed for plug-in mode; they do not recommend it; it will take a complete redesign. . . . Obviously they were not saying it does not work but rather it does not work yet, it is hard to make it work, don't count on GM making this work, etc. They were downplaying expectations. They did not circulate specifications, so automotive journalists were playing a guessing game about the range and features. Rossi has never said or implied that the thing can't and doesn't work. What he does is to leave lots of room for plausible doubt in the minds of his opponents and competition. This lulls them into a false sense of security. Toyota was doing the same thing by downplaying expectations about the plug-in Prius. It is not possible for Rossi to fine tune the response to his tactics in other people's minds. He does not care about most people's response. He is only concerned about a small number of people who might buy 1 MW reactors. I believe he refuses all scientific tests because he knows that a test will prove beyond doubt the thing is real, and that would lead to disastrous consequences for him: a Niagara of competition. He knows as well as I do that not allowing tests will convince people such as Yugo that he is committing fraud. He does not care what Yugo thinks. Why should he? She is not going to buy a 1 MW reactor. Actually, she is doing him a favor by attacking him in the mass media discussion sections. In short, he is doing a fan dance striptease act. He does not want to sell smaller reactors because someone like me would buy one only in order to test it, and publish the results. Plus if he sells 100 small ones he will have less control over them than he has over one big machine with 100 reactors inside it. It is 100 times less work too, vetting customers, arranging deals, preparing contracts and so on. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:21 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: It's all in the eye of the beholder. The point I think you gloss over is the apparent fact that Rossi is not deliberately (or overtly) ...acting in a way that suggests investor fraud. Rossi is instead employing passive-tactics indirectly... through his inaction he conveniently allows individuals like you who are predisposed to assume the worst in others to make such assumptions all by yourself. In other words, you are actually helping Rossi's business strategy by your continued actions of casting dispersions of doubt and fraud on Rossi's part. It helps give Rossi a competitive edge against all forms of potential competitors who may read and buy into your incessant insinuations. I doubt very much that what I write on the internet influences anyone who has made a serious study of Rossi. But if it gives Rossi help, why in the world do you object? You seem very conflicted about it. I am not predisposed to assume the worst in others. In fact, I initially approached Rossi's story back in January 2011, with great and eager anticipation. When he was criticized prematurely, I urged people to wait and see what he would do next. Well... I saw what he did next. He acted exactly like that prototypic fraudulent outfit Steorn and their duplicitous and disingenuous CEO Sean McCarthy. Bad demonstrations and anonymous customers shouldn't impress much. Keep in mind, in matters of warfare employing deception and disinformation are crucial tactics used in winning wars. Why would you think that running a competitive businesses would be any different? Since I gather you are a skeptic, I would suggest that understanding this alone might be another reason why you might want to consider toning down your campaign against Rossi, because for the moment you are probably helping Rossi’s business strategy more than you might realize. Suppositions about Rossi's business strategy are simply hilarious and little else. You do not appear to know much history, such as in matters of self-serving business deception tactics. Here’s additional nefarious information on Toyota’s “Deception and evasion” tactics: I looked at the link you provided and it is completely unrelated and irrelevant. It relates to Toyota's *legal* defense against law suits. Of course lawyers use dishonest tactics and hide information. Is that a surprise to you? Wow. Quite frankly, Mary, you continue to make incredibly ignorant remarks. A compliment, coming from you. Thanks. It’s back to the kill file with you. Fine. Be an ostrich.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: I wrote: Can you think of a recent spectacular innovation that has been marketed by deliberately acting in a way that suggests it can't and doesn't work? Toyota's plug in Prius. Toyota kept saying existing model is not designed for plug-in mode; they do not recommend it; it will take a complete redesign. . . . Obviously they were not saying it does not work but rather it does not work yet, it is hard to make it work, don't count on GM making this work, etc. They were downplaying expectations. They did not circulate specifications, so automotive journalists were playing a guessing game about the range and features. Rossi has never said or implied that the thing can't and doesn't work. What he does is to leave lots of room for plausible doubt in the minds of his opponents and competition. This lulls them into a false sense of security. Toyota was doing the same thing by downplaying expectations about the plug-in Prius. Dreadful example. Nobody doubted for an instant that a plug in Prius was coming soon. And nobody stopped buying the add ons who was willing to pay their high prices. It is not possible for Rossi to fine tune the response to his tactics in other people's minds. He does not care about most people's response. He is only concerned about a small number of people who might buy 1 MW reactors. I believe he refuses all scientific tests because he knows that a test will prove beyond doubt the thing is real, and that would lead to disastrous consequences for him: a Niagara of competition. He knows as well as I do that not allowing tests will convince people such as Yugo that he is committing fraud. He does not care what Yugo thinks. Why should he? She is not going to buy a 1 MW reactor. Actually, she is doing him a favor by attacking him in the mass media discussion sections. Your novel fantasies are amusing. I doubt I do much harm to Rossi's case with believers. I hope I alert the general public and potential investors that they need to be wary and to not believe the optimistic hype about Rossi's tests and supposed client. In short, he is doing a fan dance striptease act. He does not want to sell smaller reactors because someone like me would buy one only in order to test it, and publish the results. Plus if he sells 100 small ones he will have less control over them than he has over one big machine with 100 reactors inside it. It is 100 times less work too, vetting customers, arranging deals, preparing contracts and so on. So let me be sure I understand. To be safe, instead of selling small reactors to potential competitors, Rossi was able to sell 1300 leaky, half rated-power models that require a large diesel generator, to someone? To an American military organization? That has to stay anonymous? And you believe it?That's very funny.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: It's all in the eye of the beholder. The point I think you gloss over is the apparent fact that Rossi is not deliberately (or overtly) ...acting in a way that suggests investor fraud. Rossi is instead employing passive-tactics indirectly... through his inaction he conveniently allows individuals like you who are predisposed to assume the worst in others to make such assumptions all by yourself. In other words, you are actually helping Rossi's business strategy . . . My point exactly. In intelligence and warfare deception, the key thing is to set up a fake set of circumstances that confirm what the enemy already believes. The Germans were convinced that the D-Day invasion would be at Pas de Calais. The Allies knew the Germans thought this, so they conducted Operation Fortitude to reinforce that expectation. You would not want to conduct a deception campaign to make the Germans think you are going to invade someplace they never anticipated or planned for. That would put too many ideas in their heads, and raise suspicions. They would think: This must be a deception campaign, but why this target? The idea is to lull them into thinking they are right already. Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: I suspect he does not want to take the risk of an independently tested ecat behaving erractically. He fears the published results would make his commercial promises look silly, even if the basic energy producing claims are validated. That's an interesting idea. Good point. I doubt he fears this, but he might. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: That's an interesting idea. Good point. I doubt he fears this, but he might. Rossi and Defkalion have been jerking well meaning and interested people around by the thousands (or more) for the better part of the year and all you can do is come up with ridiculous explanations and defenses for these people? It's reached the point where their actions are even less justifiable if they really have something than if they don't. Think of the waste of time and resources that have gone on all year. And they are completely unjustified -- EITHER WAY.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Dreadful example. Nobody doubted for an instant that a plug in Prius was coming soon. Soon? How soon? What was coming? Toyota introduced it ahead of schedule, after downplaying expectations and withholding specifications. That ploy is often used in industry. And nobody stopped buying the add ons who was willing to pay their high prices. You do not know what you are talking about. Why should he? She is not going to buy a 1 MW reactor. Actually, she is doing him a favor by attacking him in the mass media discussion sections. Your novel fantasies are amusing. So you ARE going to buy a 1 MW reactor?!? I am astounded. I hope I alert the general public and potential investors that they need to be wary and to not believe the optimistic hype about Rossi's tests and supposed client. Yes, you do. That's the whole point. So let me be sure I understand. To be safe, instead of selling small reactors to potential competitors, Rossi was able to sell 1300 leaky, half rated-power models that require a large diesel generator, to someone? To an American military organization? That has to stay anonymous? And you believe it?That's very funny. 1. The reactors are not leaky. 2. It is not half-rated, although it wasn't working at full power on Oct. 28. It is a miracle that it worked at all. 3. It does not require a diesel generator. That's a silly thing to say. Mains electricity works fine. They did not have large enough ones available in that factory. 4. The customer chooses to be anonymous. It does not have to. Stop making up nonsense. Rossi has many weaknesses, as does any start-up with a prototype. You do not need to make up unfounded nonsense to make him look worse than he is. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi and Defkalion have been jerking well meaning and interested people around by the thousands (or more) for the better part of the year and all you can do is come up with ridiculous explanations and defenses for these people? You call this a defense?!? I am saying he is engaged in a disinformation campaign. That is not exactly a complement. If you think this is ridiculous, or even unusual, then you do not know much about business. It's reached the point where their actions are even less justifiable if they really have something than if they don't. Justifiable to who? On what basis? The only people whose opinions count are the stockholders and investors at Defkalion, and Rossi's customers. If they think it is justified, that makes it justified. You seem to have some weird notion that they beholden to you. They have some sort of obligation to do things your way, to your satisfaction. Let me clue you in: These people are running private businesses. They do not work for you. You are not a stockholder. You have no say in the matter. Neither do I or anyone else outside the company. They can say or do anything they want as long as it is not deceptive advertising or fraud. They can spread as many rumors or disinformation about upcoming products as they like. Businesses do this all the time. They can keep things as secret as they like. I know many experienced businessmen and investors who are watching both Rossi and Defkalion closely. Many have been critical of them, as have I. Many have said they would not invest with Ross because he seems to be a loose cannon. But not one has suggested they have done something illegal or unusual or unjustified (whatever that means). They agree that Rossi and Defkalion face difficult circumstances which call for unusual measures. You can say their strategy is stupid, or it will probably fail for thus and such reason, or that you would do things differently. But the notion that it has to be justified by your standards -- or by some universal standard -- is ridiculous. No private business strategy needs to explained to or approved by outsiders. No strategy satisfies everyone. You might say X Corp. startup is doing great while someone else says it is blowing the opportunity. Some say Netflix lost their touch and was foolish trying to split. Others see the reasons they tried to do that, and say it was an understandable mistake. Business is complicated. There are no easy answers. No one knows the best course of action. It cannot be known. There are too many variables and too many unknown factors. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
From Harry: I suspect he does not want to take the risk of an independently tested ecat behaving erractically. He fears the published results would make his commercial promises look silly, even if the basic energy producing claims are validated. From Jed: That's an interesting idea. Good point. I doubt he fears this, but he might. I think Harry's speculation is spot on. I think Rossi has VERY GOOD reason to fear this possibility. If I were in Rossi's shoes I certainly WOULD be concerned about someone possibly botching the job. Rossi would have no control over such matters either. I'm sure lack of control would drive Rossi crazy becuz he's such a micro manager. Think about it, Jed. If you were a competitor, such as someone with affiliations with the fossil fuel industry, a mega-industry that obviously wouldn't want Rossi's eCats to survive, if one of those individuals or organizations could purchase one of the eCats don't you think they would put some effort into botching the job and then printing a report that gets LOTS of press on what a POS Rossi's eCat really is? What did Edison attempt to do with Tesla's superior AC technology? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 1:52 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: I If you were a competitor, such as someone with affiliations with the fossil fuel industry, a mega-industry that obviously wouldn't want Rossi's eCats to survive, if one of those individuals or organizations could purchase one of the eCats don't you think they would put some effort into “botching” the job and then printing a report that gets LOTS of press on what a POS Rossi's eCat really is? That is the ultimate in silliness. If anyone develops a robust example of cold fusion/LENR power generation, it will sell world wide better than hotcakes with strawberry syrup and whipped cream on top ever did. NOTHING -- not regulation, oil interests, governments, or internet critics will be able to slow it much less stop its development. Why wouldn't EVERYONE demand and buy a cheap, safe, constant, long lasting source of heat which requires almost no fuel?! Wow. How can anyone believe such a thing could be suppressed for any substantial time? By ANY means short of thermonuclear war?
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
I wrote: Rossi is instead employing passive-tactics indirectly... The Allies knew the Germans thought this, so they conducted Operation Fortitude to reinforce that expectation. The point I was trying to make, and forgot to make, is that deception is often passive. You persuade your enemy to deceive himself. You may lull him into a false sense of security, or you might stoke his fears and have him frighten himself. You start with his state of mind. This tactic as been around since ancient times. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: You do not know what you are talking about. Well, that's a good argument. So you ARE going to buy a 1 MW reactor?!? I am astounded. I am not buying a leaky claptrap collection of 100 or so badly assembled, messy looking kludges hooked to a half megawatt generator and said without proof to make the same power the generator puts out. I mean couldn't Rossi have tried to be a little convincing by using say a 250 kW device into one almost a half a megawatt in capability? Even for just the sake of appearances, LOL. 1. The reactors are not leaky. Oh. Was it raining October 28? Seemed there was a lot of water not in pipes. 2. It is not half-rated, although it wasn't working at full power on Oct. 28. It is a miracle that it worked at all. Sorry, there was no miracle. Well... if you don't count how many people that bizarre dog and pony show apparently convinced. 3. It does not require a diesel generator. That's a silly thing to say. Mains electricity works fine. They did not have large enough ones available in that factory. Pity. They could have run the thing from the mains a lot cheaper. 4. The customer chooses to be anonymous. It does not have to. Yes. You still believe there was a customer, LOL. Stop making up nonsense. Rossi has many weaknesses, as does any start-up with a prototype. You do not need to make up unfounded nonsense to make him look worse than he is. I don't think it's possible to make him look worse than he does himself.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: You can say their strategy is stupid, or it will probably fail for thus and such reason, or that you would do things differently. But the notion that it has to be justified by your standards -- or by some universal standard -- is ridiculous. No private business strategy needs to explained to or approved by outsiders. No strategy satisfies everyone. You might say X Corp. startup is doing great while someone else says it is blowing the opportunity. Some say Netflix lost their touch and was foolish trying to split. Others see the reasons they tried to do that, and say it was an understandable mistake. Business is complicated. There are no easy answers. No one knows the best course of action. It cannot be known. There are too many variables and too many unknown factors. You insist on comparing a supposed cold fusion/LENR robust power power plant to Netflix, IBM, and Edison. But that's silly. There's no comparison to any of them. Such a thing would be more revolutionary and would gain faster acceptance and more interest than anything done in the last hundred years. As Cude is fond of pointing out, remember the acclaim and open armed welcome that PF got when they first announced? All the interest from the press, the funding from private companies, the offers and interviews? How soon we forget.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: That is the ultimate in silliness. If anyone develops a robust example of cold fusion/LENR power generation, it will sell world wide better than hotcakes with strawberry syrup and whipped cream on top ever did. NOTHING -- not regulation, oil interests, governments, or internet critics will be able to slow it much less stop its development. Probably, but I am certain they will try to stop it. People opposed to progress have tried to stop every innovation in history, no matter how beneficial. This is an iron law of human behavior. The dairy industry managed to prevent pasteurization in New York State from 1865 until 1917, killing hundreds of thousands of babies. Doctors opposed to Semmelweis delayed the introduction of disinfection for decades, killing millions. Even today, doctors in the US kill hundreds of thousands of patients every year because they do not bother to wash their hands or sterilize properly. They are not ignorant. They are lazy, unprofessional and uncaring, plus they do not fear malpractice suits as much as they should. People fought against the introduction of seatbelts in automobiles right until the 1960s, even though it was obvious from 1900 on that seatbelts would save lives. At this moment, the coal industry is pulling out the stops to destroy the wind power industry. They are trying to get the Congress to pass laws that would make it illegal to use wind power in the US, and to have all existing towers taken down. They are doing this ostensibly to protect birds. There is no chance this legislation will pass, but Representatives who are bought and paid for by Big Coal have to show their masters that they are doing the best they can. If cold fusion is introduced they will use similar tactics against it. So will oil, fission and the wind industry, obviously. They will take out full-page ads trying to frighten people into thinking that cold fusion will be dangerous. They will pay huge bribes to members of Congress. They will do whatever they can -- and people who have billions of dollars can do quite a lot. See: Wall Street, 2008 crash, too big to fail. Why wouldn't EVERYONE demand and buy a cheap, safe, constant, long lasting source of heat which requires almost no fuel?! Don't be ridiculous. Do you think OPEC and Big Coal will be thrilled? You think they will roll over and play dead? They will demand that it be banned. Cold fusion was suppressed and nearly destroyed by a handful of academic hacks, the plasma fusion researchers, and people like you. It will remain vulnerable for a while. After cold fusion manufacturing companies gather a war chest of several hundred million dollars they will begin purchasing their own Representatives in Congress. Then it will be smooth sailing. It is just a matter of paying a bigger bribe. This is how US industry has worked since 1865, and the building of the transcontinental railroad. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Even today, doctors in the US kill hundreds of thousands of patients every year because they do not bother to wash their hands or sterilize properly. They are not ignorant. They are lazy, unprofessional and uncaring, plus they do not fear malpractice suits as much as they should. Aseptic technique may be imperfect in many places but hundreds of thousands of death due to negligence? Cite please. And not some whacko website, please.
RE: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Jed sez: ... It is just a matter of paying a bigger bribe. This is how US industry has worked since 1865, and the building of the transcontinental railroad. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I have no choice but to do both. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: That is the ultimate in silliness. If anyone develops a robust example of cold fusion/LENR power generation, it will sell world wide better than hotcakes with strawberry syrup and whipped cream on top ever did. NOTHING -- not regulation, oil interests, governments, or internet critics will be able to slow it much less stop its development. Probably, but I am certain they will try to stop it. People opposed to progress have tried to stop every innovation in history, no matter how beneficial. This is an iron law of human behavior. I am really curious: who do you think tried to stop FF when they first announced and before they apparently kept shooting themselves in the feet? Did big oil mount a campaign? Hear much from the fission power industry? How about coal? Any outcries of fraud from the natural gas industry? Any malignant skeptics write articles early on? WHO tried to stop PF's first efforts? HOW did they do it? For that matter, who critiqued Rossi before he did the idiotic dog and pony shows despite innumerable requests to fly straight? Certainly not me. Instead, I asked the few critics I found to hold off and give the guy a chance. Well, he's had a year of chances and so has Defkalion.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: That is the ultimate in silliness. If anyone develops a robust example of cold fusion/LENR power generation, it will sell world wide better than hotcakes with strawberry syrup and whipped cream on top ever did. NOTHING -- not regulation, oil interests, governments, or internet critics will be able to slow it much less stop its development. Probably, but I am certain they will try to stop it. People opposed to progress have tried to stop every innovation in history, no matter how beneficial. This is an iron law of human behavior. I am really curious: who do you think tried to stop FF Of course should have been PF. I am going back to my rum and egg nog. Happy holidays!
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: You insist on comparing a supposed cold fusion/LENR robust power power plant to Netflix, IBM, and Edison. But that's silly. Because I believe the effect is real. Naturally, you do not think so because you do not think it is real. You have to imagine my point of view based on my beliefs. You have assume for the sake of argument or nothing that I say will make sense. By the way, we know you don't believe it. There is no need to repeat that. Such a thing would be more revolutionary and would gain faster acceptance and more interest than anything done in the last hundred years. If you believe that, you do not know the first thing about the history of technology or commerce. That is astounding ignorance. Whenever there is pre-existing competition, innovations have faced opposition. The opposition is proportional to the threat. The better the invention, the stronger the opposition. There have been innovations were there is no pre-existing market, such as x-rays, aviation and personal computers. There was no opposition to these discoveries. Ninety years after the discovery of the x-ray when someone came along with an improved method of looking inside people, NMR, he had to fight tooth and nail to have it accepted. The only metric that counts is money. Opposition is always about money -- and power. It makes no difference how good it is or how many people want it or how many lives it will save. If powerful people stand lose money there will be fierce opposition. As Cude is fond of pointing out, remember the acclaim and open armed welcome that PF got when they first announced? All the interest from the press, the funding from private companies, the offers and interviews? How soon we forget. You have not forgotten. You never learned anything in the first place! Your version of history is a fantasy. Read Beaudette. Read the papers in the LENR-CANR library about history. Learn something, for crying out loud! Fleischmann and Pons were not welcomed. They were thrown out of the University and driven out of the country. Pons renounced his US citizenship because he was so mistreated. People who replicated were ridiculed, harassed and fired. Their experiments were sabotaged. their old friends, publishers and supporters deserted him and reviled them. Their reputations were destroyed in the mass media. Their lives and careers were ruined in some cases. To this day, you and hordes of other ignorant people on the Internet attack them and make absurd claims about their work. As Schwinger said: The pressure for conformity is enormous. I have experienced it in editors’ rejection of submitted papers, based on venomous criticism of anonymous referees. The replacement of impartial reviewing by censorship will be the death of science. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
At 02:44 PM 12/23/2011, Mary Yugo wrote: Aseptic technique may be imperfect in many places but hundreds of thousands of death due to negligence? Cite please. And not some whacko website, please. http://www.safepatientproject.org/2007/05/cdc_publishes_sobering_stats_o.html In a newly released study (1), the CDC estimates that there are 4.5 hospital infections for every 100 patient admissions and nearly 100,000 deaths from hospital infection.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
At 02:53 PM 12/23/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 02:44 PM 12/23/2011, Mary Yugo wrote: Aseptic technique may be imperfect in many places but hundreds of thousands of death due to negligence? Cite please. And not some whacko website, please. http://www.safepatientproject.org/2007/05/cdc_publishes_sobering_stats_o.html In a newly released study (1), the CDC estimates that there are 4.5 hospital infections for every 100 patient admissions and nearly 100,000 deaths from hospital infection. The report was buried : http://www.cdc.gov/HAI/pdfs/hai/infections_deaths.pdf Results. In 2002, the estimated number of HAIs in U.S. hospitals, adjusted to include federal facilities, was approximately 1.7 million: 33,269 HAIs among newborns in high-risk nurseries, 19,059 among newborns in well-baby nurser ies, 417,946 among adults and children in ICUs, and 1,266,851 among adults and children outside of ICUs. The estimated deaths associated with HAIs in U.S. hospitals were 98,987: of these, 35,967 were for pneumonia, 30,665 for bloodstream infections, 13,088 for urinary tract infections, 8,205 for surgical site infections, and 11,062 for infections of other sites. Of course, Jed was 13 short of hundreds of thousands -- but that's just Hospitals. Add in nursing hoems,clinics, doctor's offices
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Of course, Jed was 13 short of hundreds of thousands -- but that's just Hospitals. Add in nursing hoems,clinics, doctor's offices Hey, I was just an order of magnitude low. I always say, what's an order of magnitude among friends? In my experience, doctors and hospitals in Europe and Japan are much cleaner than U.S. ones. However, the British NHS is working on this, as the article I quoted shows. To someone used to Japanese standards (as I am), U.S. healthcare is appalling, and our hospitals are a filthy mess. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
I have to feel stunned by the naivete of some of you. Major corporations are entirely capable of murder or theft. I suggest you read up on John Perkins and his book Confessions of an Economic Hitman in which he cites various coincidences of third world leaders who met with an accident after refusing usurious loans for their countries. Or how about long documented manipulation of silver markets? One whistleblower found out the next day when someone attempted to kill him with a car. ( see Andrew Maguire). Or perhaps you could speak with minor officials in Florida who were documenting fraud by Too Big To Fail banks - until their superior told them that their services were no longer required... and afterward have NO ONE got to jail for what could be the greatest document fraud in US history in regard to 'robo-signing' mortgages. Maybe you could bravely advocate cold fusion and then end up as a murder victim in a cold case that goes on, year after year. Perhaps you get a law passed with almost no public input, by large majorities, that nearly repeals the Bill of Rights - even after protest by US generals and the ACLU. (the NDDA just handed to Obama) - mostly kept out of the press. Wake up and get real.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: I am really curious: who do you think tried to stop FF . . . Oh for crying out loud. Tried to stop? Really?!? Look, they did not try -- they succeeded! I know exactly who they are. Everyone knows who they are! I have met the leading members of the opposition, several times, at conferences and in Washington. I read their books, and their reports. They brag about the fact that they stopped cold fusion! They are famous and celebrated for stopping it. They include, for example, Park, Huizenga, Close, Maddox, the plasma fusionlab people at MIT who called the newspapers and said Fleischmann and Pons are frauds. Lindley, Feshbach, Morrison, Koonin, Happer. Dozens more. Read any book on the history of cold fusion, or any paper written by a supporter or opponent, and you will see the names of the people who gutted this research. You will see their reasons. Read their books. They are not shy people. Naturally, they got help from the hoards of ignorant naysayers such as Cude and Yugo. Moral support you might call it. WHO tried to stop PF's first efforts? HOW did they do it? Read history. Learn something. Don't ask ignorant questions. I uploaded 1,200 papers for a reason, so that people can learn things. Don't ask me to spoon-feed you every morsel of information. Do your own damn homework. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: Or perhaps you could speak with minor officials in Florida who were documenting fraud by Too Big To Fail banks - until their superior told them that their services were no longer required... and afterward have NO ONE got to jail for what could be the greatest document fraud in US history in regard to 'robo-signing' mortgages. Good point. That's a recent example too. I am not aware of any threats of violence in the history cold fusion, except against Stan Pons. This was an academic fight. Professors do not resort to violence. They are not capable of it. * There were incidents of people dumping horse manure on experiments, destroying data, throwing experimental equipment into the dumpster and so on, but no real violence. If cold fusion begins to succeed commercially I'm sure there will be physical threats. There will be sabotage, firebombing and so on. There always is. Heck I know of examples in the fast food business, computers, the hotel business . . . Where there is big money, there will be violence. You can count on that. Wake up and get real. Amen. - Jed * As I mentioned here, the only professor I know who was capable of violence was the late J. P. Vigier. He was a trained assassin who killed a number of German officers in World War II. He once demonstrated the technique on me. You grab the guy like this, hold him here, and bang (with his finger). He could have killed me in 5 seconds flat, even though he was a short guy in his 80s. Tough as nails.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Such a thing would be more revolutionary and would gain faster acceptance and more interest than anything done in the last hundred years. If you believe that, you do not know the first thing about the history of technology or commerce. That is astounding ignorance. Whenever there is pre-existing competition, innovations have faced opposition. The opposition is proportional to the threat. The better the invention, the stronger the opposition. But the opposition doesn't come from impartial scientific panels enlisted to evaluate the technology. It comes from potential competitors, or luddites. So, opposition from big oil might make sense for cold fusion. Is there any evidence they opposed it, or is that your fantasy? Hot fusion would have felt threatened of course, but they were not actually making money, and the source of their money would stand to gain immeasurably from cold fusion (from energy independence, from less pollution, from the disappearance of the climate change controversy), so that isn't plausible either. What is plausible is that they were experts in the field, and in their estimation, cold fusion is a pipe dream. That estimation has been borne out in 22 years of cold fusion failure. And the opposition is not usually in the form of denial of the basic principles, as in the case of cold fusion. Surely, the opposition to MRI was not about the principles of the technique. There simply isn't another example like cold fusion in the history of technology, much as you dearly want there to be. That's why Storms has said the treatment is unprecedented. The only metric that counts is money. Opposition is always about money -- and power. It makes no difference how good it is or how many people want it or how many lives it will save. If powerful people stand lose money there will be fierce opposition. Probably true, but very few people would stand to lose money from the success cold fusion. It would be like the industrial revolution, where everyone's standard of living would improve. Even the oil companies would be well positioned to take advantage of the new technology in its distribution and so on. As Cude is fond of pointing out, remember the acclaim and open armed welcome that PF got when they first announced? All the interest from the press, the funding from private companies, the offers and interviews? How soon we forget. You have not forgotten. You never learned anything in the first place! Your version of history is a fantasy. Read Beaudette. Read the papers in the LENR-CANR library about history. Learn something, for crying out loud! Fleischmann and Pons were not welcomed. They were initially. They were cheered. They were adored. They were applauded. They were featured on front pages. That means people wanted cold fusion to work. Only when the experiments didn't stand up to scrutiny did the welcome turn to derision. That didn't take very long. They were thrown out of the University and driven out of the country. How exactly did that work? Was Pons fired? I doubt it, since he had tenure. Fleischmann didn't have a position at Utah, and he continued to name Southampton as his affiliation until at least 1994. Even Pons continued to list Utah for several years. So, it seems they weren't thrown out of the University. In fact, for a while they were given funding to continue the research in Utah. Nothing came of it though. After that, they may have been refused funding from the state and US funding agencies for cold fusion, but that is not the same as being thrown out. Why should agencies that don't believe the research has merit be required to fund it? How were they driven out of the country? Surely they weren't exiled. Again, if they left because they couldn't get the funding they thought they deserved, well, that's just opportunism, not forced removal. Their failure to make anything of cold fusion in the decade in France with substantial funding justifies the treatment they received from funding agencies in the US. PF got better funding after the CF announcement than either of them had had in their careers. How does that translate to bad treatment? Pons renounced his US citizenship because he was so mistreated. He was denied funding for the experiments he wanted to do. In what other way was he treated badly. OK, he was also criticized for shoddy work in the press and by other scientists. But his work was shoddy. People who replicated were ridiculed, harassed and fired. Their experiments were sabotaged. their old friends, publishers and supporters deserted him and reviled them. Their reputations were destroyed in the mass media. Their lives and careers were ruined in some cases. To this day, you and hordes of other ignorant people on the Internet attack them and make absurd claims about their work. You have to keep
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Jed Rothwell says: Do you think OPEC and Big Coal will be thrilled? You think they will roll over and play dead? They will demand that it be banned. And when the Chinese and Japanese and everybody with a brain starts churning out ecats, will Big Coal knock on their door and demand that they ban the technology? You live in a fantasy world. If CF were real, nobody could stop it. Cold fusion was suppressed and nearly destroyed by a handful of academic hacks... Really? I thought it fell on its ass - PF were set up with a lab in France by the Japanese and had $$ to spend. They came up with nothing. The 22 years of supposed successful experiments proving CF are probably more like 22 years of anecdotes and laboratory curiosities.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 5:27 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Look, they did not try -- they succeeded! [...] WHO tried to stop PF's first efforts? HOW did they do it? So, you say cold fusion research was stopped. It has produced nothing. $200 million spent (Nagel's estimate) and thousands of scientists working on it (your frequent claim) and the research on a bench top experiment has not moved forward, by your own admission. Maybe, cold fusion is an illusion after all, huh.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Of course, Jed was 13 short of hundreds of thousands -- but that's just Hospitals. Add in nursing hoems,clinics, doctor's offices Hey, I was just an order of magnitude low. I always say, what's an order of magnitude among friends? In my experience, doctors and hospitals in Europe and Japan are much cleaner than U.S. ones. However, the British NHS is working on this, as the article I quoted shows. To someone used to Japanese standards (as I am), U.S. healthcare is appalling, and our hospitals are a filthy mess. Ah... but you see, not every infection in a hospital is preventable, even with the most meticulous technique. While a few doctors are slobs and a few hospital are trash pits, most in the US are not. People get infections from their relatives and visitors, and from low levels workers such as janitors and nurse's aids. In addition, many would get infections from virtually any surroundings because they are immuno-compromised by HIV, age and debility, recent surgery and from chemotherapy and radiation. When you come up with a rate for AVOIDABLE infections, let me know. I find a lot of the usual internet citations for medical topics are based on woeful ignorance of the tough realities of practicing medicine in a real world. And for the most part, I'll take US medical care quality including hospitals, as a whole, over any other country's system. As for Japanese health care, it's very checkered. For serious illness, it is nowhere close to the US in the use of high technology and evidence-based decisions about therapy. And it is fraught with every manner of superstition and quackery, practiced alongside of conventional medicine. A lot of people would like to see this happen also in the USA and quite a bit does but for the most part, a concerned person can tell them apart and make a good choice. Not so in Japan, IMHO.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate? 17C London
17th Century London : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070102/Royal-Society-exhibition-John-Graunts-1679-medical-stats-reveal-Londoners-causes-death.html http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/05/article-0-0F0E28C60578-628_964x1085.jpg Consumption and Cough is in the lead, at 44,487 over 20 years Newborns and Infants 32,106 ... Plague 16,384 just beats out Teeth and Worms 14,236 Plus oddballs like King's Evil (I bet that's a .. Social Disease)
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Read history. Learn something. Don't ask ignorant questions. I uploaded 1,200 papers for a reason, so that people can learn things. Don't ask me to spoon-feed you every morsel of information. Do your own damn homework. What a ridiculous copout! Next time I critique Rossi or Defkalion's unsupported claims and you question it, how would you like it if instead of replying, I'd refer you to a library of a thousand opaque and difficult papers to read?
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
At 04:22 PM 12/23/2011, Mary Yugo wrote: Ah... but you see, not every infection in a hospital is preventable, even with the most meticulous technique. While a few doctors are slobs and a few hospital are trash pits, most in the US are not. People get infections from their relatives and visitors, and from low levels workers such as janitors and nurse's aids. In addition, many would get infections from virtually any surroundings because they are immuno-compromised by HIV, age and debility, recent surgery and from chemotherapy and radiation. When you come up with a rate for AVOIDABLE infections, let me know. Gee ... so why the huge push to improve hospital sanitation if it was UN-avoidable? My local hospital went through a 3-year training certification program addressing the issue.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Some is avoidable, some not. The problem is less with doctors and nurses than it is with aides of various types, janitors, food workers, and all the other less educated hospital staff. On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: At 04:22 PM 12/23/2011, Mary Yugo wrote: Ah... but you see, not every infection in a hospital is preventable, even with the most meticulous technique. While a few doctors are slobs and a few hospital are trash pits, most in the US are not. People get infections from their relatives and visitors, and from low levels workers such as janitors and nurse's aids. In addition, many would get infections from virtually any surroundings because they are immuno-compromised by HIV, age and debility, recent surgery and from chemotherapy and radiation. When you come up with a rate for AVOIDABLE infections, let me know. Gee ... so why the huge push to improve hospital sanitation if it was UN-avoidable? My local hospital went through a 3-year training certification program addressing the issue.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
At 04:35 PM 12/23/2011, Mary Yugo wrote: Some is avoidable, some not. The problem is less with doctors and nurses than it is with aides of various types, janitors, food workers, and all the other less educated hospital staff. Hospital Infections: Preventable and Unacceptable WSJ 2008 : http://www.hospitalinfection.org/dev/news%20articles/WSJ%20-%20HI%20Preventable%20and%20Unacceptable%20%288-14-08%29.pdf A recent survey from the patient-safety organization Leapfrog found that 87% of hospitals fail to consistently practice infection prevention measures.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
At 04:35 PM 12/23/2011, Mary Yugo wrote: Some is avoidable, some not. The problem is less with doctors and nurses than it is with aides of various types, janitors, food workers, and all the other less educated hospital staff. 5 google clicks seems to disprove your hypothesis. eg http://www.safecarecampaign.org/Media/pdf/safe_care_brochure.pdf It's the people who have DIRECT contact with patients -- nurses and (partly) trained aides (and particularly, serial patient-to-patient) that do it. (Oh, yes. And Doctors). You can cr@p on the floor, and it will have little or no effect to HI rates.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Ruby r...@hush.com wrote: I was seriously bummed out to hear the Navy researchers being forced to stop their work due to too much publicity. My question to Vortex members is this: What is the best way to advocate for clean energy from this reaction, which we choose to call cold fusion? The people at SPAWAR are negotiating with management about this. They are hoping to arrange to have the equipment and know-how transferred to the private sector. (Rather than have the equipment chucked into the dumpster, I suppose, which is where a good many cold fusion experiments have ended up.) They say they will let me know as this process shapes up. people interested in supporting this work may have a chance to invest in the company. At some point, it might be a good idea to make polite, positive suggestions to the Navy management. But not now. It might be possible to restart the work in the lab there. I kind of doubt it, but let's see how things work out. The last thing anyone should do is make a stink. There have been some instances in history of cold fusion where I wish people had made a big stink. This is not one of them. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Regarding the comments about SPAWAR here: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/Swartz/Mitchell-Swartz-Cold-Fusion-Researcher.shtml As far as I know, Krivit had no role in the demise of the project. No one has complained about him, or mentioned him. The Fox News report was the straw the broke the camel's back and ended the project. That's what Swartz says in his message quoted here. He is right. This is a confusing exchange of messages. . . . A lot of messages stamped confidential here. Krivit *publishes* more confidential messages than I * get*! I feel left out. I don't get confidential messages. I get people asking me to untangle the results of Polish people writing papers in English using an out-of-date Russian version of Microsoft Word. I ask you: What fun is that? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote: The public needs to be informed so that we will have the capacity to demand this technology, and not let it be derailed again. What do you think is the best way to do this? Seek out mainstream journalists and explain to them why this is important and real. Harry
RE: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
Best: Persuade Rossi to sell (or rent) you a single e-Cat ASAP. I'll contribute $ to that effort. Then have competent engineers instrument it and do a proper test. If done properly, and it's a successful test, you won't have any problems with advocacy. -m From: Ruby [mailto:r...@hush.com] Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:09 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate? I was seriously bummed out to hear the Navy researchers being forced to stop their work due to too much publicity. My question to Vortex members is this: What is the best way to advocate for clean energy from this reaction, which we choose to call cold fusion? This past year, Cold Fusion Now did several mailings to DoE, politicians, and venture capitalists. Do you think writing letters and telephoning is worth the trouble, or, is it actually detrimental? Now that commercial units are imminent, do you feel we should drop political efforts? I am constantly going back and forth on this. The public needs to be informed so that we will have the capacity to demand this technology, and not let it be derailed again. What do you think is the best way to do this? And thanks for a great year of typing from your crew. Ruby
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Best: Persuade Rossi to sell (or rent) you a single e-Cat ASAP. I’ll contribute $ to that effort. Then have competent engineers instrument it and do a proper test. If done properly, and it’s a successful test, you won’t have any problems with advocacy. You know very well that Rossi has never shown the slightest inclination to do anything like that. Many variants of that idea have been proposed to Rossi and he has refused them all, using mostly tangential and irrelevant arguments. You're more likely to be able to purchase an invisible unicorn than a single e-cat to test.
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: You're more likely to be able to purchase an invisible unicorn than a single e-cat to test. Do I get my choice of colors? T
Re: [Vo]:POLITICAL What is the best way to advocate?
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: You're more likely to be able to purchase an invisible unicorn than a single e-cat to test. Do I get my choice of colors? T Tinker Bell can see it and she tells me it is blue with a pink mane. harry
