Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
The reactor could be acting like an infrared laser. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:51 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: But the question I've been trying to ask, isn't the color adjusted by the emissivity factor? So if the emissivity is 0.75, then doesn't this mean that the observed color is less than the actual temperature? Sorry, now I see your true question. (I was distracted by the formula you provided.) Based on the passage you cited it appears an emissivity correction would bump up the temperature. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
In my view at the very root of the LENR reaction, extreme magnetic disturbance of the vacuum cause mesons to condense out of the vacuum as real particles. This is where the electron eventually comes from: the vacuum. Mesons decays into pions which in their turn decays into muons which then decays into electrons + anti-electronneutrinos + muonneutrinos. See: Rossi reveals EMF activity in the Hot Cat http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/08/07/rossi-on-electrostatic-force-from-the-e-cat/ 1. Steven N. Karels January 3rd, 2013 at 12:53 PM http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=771cpage=5#comment-525493 Dear Andrea Rossi, I would be surprised if your can extract sufficient “diect EMF” from an eCat to either sustain itself or provide a reasonable amount of electricity. The current nuclear reactors essentially are huge Carnot cycle machines. Admitted they are fission and your eCat is a “LENR” device but I would guess they would have extracted “direct EMF” energy if it were plentifully available. Do you think this is a low-probability path to electrical energy generation or even COP enhancement? 2. Andrea Rossi January 3rd, 2013 at 5:36 PM http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=771cpage=5#comment-526041 Dear Steven N. Karels: Your consideration is correct, and I agree with you. Nevertheless we got evidence of this generation of power, that at the moment we call ” strange power”. We are researching on it, we are not ready for definite opinions. It’s interesting, though. Warm Regards, A.R. Lafleur August 3rd, 2014 at 4:06 PM If you are finding a magnetic byproduct as well that is certainly interesting. You had no mention of magnetic materials. Care to comment? Should I be surprised if you find a monopole mechanism? I apologize for my questions with no (known?) answers but you sir are a mad scientist and enjoy your blog. I believe that skepticism is healthy but positive or negative this would be a better world if more scientists were asking your questions. Andrea Rossi August 3rd, 2014 at 4:29 PM Dave Lafleur: It is not exactly as you wrote. We have found as an unexpected phenomenon the direct production of electromagnetic energy. This is an issue we are making RD upon, but, sincerely, in this period my focus is on the 1 MW plant of the new US Customer. I agree about what you say in regard of scepticism. Warm Regards, A.R. Hank Mills August 6th, 2014 at 9:12 PM Dear Andrea, Could you please tell us a little more about the electromagnetic fields detected from your device? They have nothing to do with the upcoming report which is only measuring heat production, so I hope you can share just a bit of info. For example: 1 – What form of EM fields are you measuring? Magnetic? Electrostatic? 2 – Where are they detected? Inside the reactor? Outside? 3 – What is the strength of the field in Tesla, if it is a magnetic field? 4 – Is it pulsing or constant? My dream would be that you could design a low temp E-Cat that would produce pulsing magnetic fields outside of the reactor. If this was the case, you could wrap a coil of copper wire around it and convert the magnetism to electricity. I can imagine such a solid state E-Cat being used to power an RF cavity thruster so we could colonize the solar system. Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2014 at 8:31 AM Hank Mills: In this period I am exclusively focused on the 1 MW plant, therefore the issue of the e.m. fields detected is not at the moment on the top of the spear. This is an issue that we do not consider consolidated, more complex research has to be done to say anything important about it. Anyway, based on what we made: 1- electrostatic 2- outside the reactor, inside the E-Cat, not outside the E-Cat 3- see 1 4- pulsing Warning: this all could be wrong. Consistent RD is necessary before saying anything decisive. Warm Regards, A.R. Ecco Liberation August 7th, 2014 at 4:01 PM Dr. Rossi: I figured that since a Hot Cat already is a thermal hazard under working conditions (as its surface temperature peaks at several hundreds °C), having electrical insulation for the static electricity it apparently generates would have been kind of redundant as one would get a bad burn before possibly getting electrocuted. I meant that hypothetically speaking – where safety is not #1 priority – referring to an exposed, uninsulated inner core. I do get your point, though. Thanks, E.L. Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2014 at 3:31 PM Ecco Liberation: The external surface of the Hot-Cat is electrically insulated, for obvious safety reasons. Currents are out of the reaction but inside the Hot Cat. If you touch any external part of the Hot Cat you do not feel any current nor measure any electromagnetic emission. Warm Regards A.R. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 4:04 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Furthermore, if large amounts of electrons are being produced as a reaction byproduct ... How
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Static electricity. If I'm right, it has a positive charge. It's probably asking too much for a electric field meter, eh?
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Axil-- Regarding you concern about the Hot Cat EMF, Rossi in August noted the following: The external surface of the Hot-Cat is electrically insulated, for obvious safety reasons. Currents are out of the reaction but inside the Hot Cat. If you touch any external part of the Hot Cat you do not feel any current nor measure any electromagnetic emission. Warm Regards A.R. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature There are types of magnetic EMF that cannot be shielded. Furthermore, if large amounts of electrons are being produced as a reaction byproduct, their chaotic interaction with the directly connected sensors and connectors may not be predictable over time. There may be an agreement in place between Rossi and the testers to keep this EMF based behavior of the Rossi reactor confidential to protect Industrial Heat's intellectual property claims. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil-- From my experience, I would doubt that is a major concern for these simple thermocouples. It there were a 50,000 watt antenna near by you might get a pick up which could be detected in the voltage output of the thermocouple. However, the external leads of a T/C are generally in a metal sheath and insulated from each other by a potting compound or other insulating material. The sheath would tend to shield the leads from RF (RG?) radiation. Axil, I think your concern is unfounded. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature Any directly connected sensor may be unreliable and erratic because of the production of intense RG radiation especially in a reactor without RF shielding. The only way to get good temperature data is through remote sensing, On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: Jed Rothwell The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. Well, catch-22 they used an internal thermocouple - and apparently took data from a perfect location, which could “see” down the axis of the tube, presumably the hottest place in the system, but chose not to release the data. What excuse can they have - other than the thermocouple data does not support the thermography (therefore the thermocouple failed)? Ahern proposed a calorimeter which would not compromise the integrity of the ceramic tube. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Terry-- Note Rossi's statement in August The external surface of the Hot-Cat is electrically insulated, for obvious safety reasons. Currents are out of the reaction but inside the Hot Cat. If you touch any external part of the Hot Cat you do not feel any current nor measure any electromagnetic emission. Warm Regards A.R. Bob - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature Static electricity. If I'm right, it has a positive charge. It's probably asking too much for a electric field meter, eh?
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
My interest in the EMF characterization of the Ecat is a theoretical one, not a safety issue (unless the EMF issues involves huge and disruptive anomalies) On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil-- Regarding you concern about the Hot Cat EMF, Rossi in August noted the following: The external surface of the Hot-Cat is electrically insulated, for obvious safety reasons. Currents are out of the reaction but inside the Hot Cat. If you touch any external part of the Hot Cat you do not feel any current nor measure any electromagnetic emission. Warm Regards A.R. Bob - Original Message - *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:04 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature There are types of magnetic EMF that cannot be shielded. Furthermore, if large amounts of electrons are being produced as a reaction byproduct, their chaotic interaction with the directly connected sensors and connectors may not be predictable over time. There may be an agreement in place between Rossi and the testers to keep this EMF based behavior of the Rossi reactor confidential to protect Industrial Heat's intellectual property claims. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil-- From my experience, I would doubt that is a major concern for these simple thermocouples. It there were a 50,000 watt antenna near by you might get a pick up which could be detected in the voltage output of the thermocouple. However, the external leads of a T/C are generally in a metal sheath and insulated from each other by a potting compound or other insulating material. The sheath would tend to shield the leads from RF (RG?) radiation. Axil, I think your concern is unfounded. Bob - Original Message - *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:33 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature Any directly connected sensor may be unreliable and erratic because of the production of intense RG radiation especially in a reactor without RF shielding. The only way to get good temperature data is through remote sensing, On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Jed Rothwell The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. Well, catch-22 they used an internal thermocouple - and apparently took data from a perfect location, which could “see” down the axis of the tube, presumably the hottest place in the system, but chose not to release the data. What excuse can they have - other than the thermocouple data does not support the thermography (therefore the thermocouple failed)? Ahern proposed a calorimeter which would not compromise the integrity of the ceramic tube. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Rossi responds to the claim that the color of the alumina at 1300°C is white heat” by saying: stupidity, Alumina becomes white heat only when it melts at 2070°C and compare it to the glass is an elementary mistake http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=853cpage=14#comment-1013594 - Brad On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: My interest in the EMF characterization of the Ecat is a theoretical one, not a safety issue (unless the EMF issues involves huge and disruptive anomalies) On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil-- Regarding you concern about the Hot Cat EMF, Rossi in August noted the following: The external surface of the Hot-Cat is electrically insulated, for obvious safety reasons. Currents are out of the reaction but inside the Hot Cat. If you touch any external part of the Hot Cat you do not feel any current nor measure any electromagnetic emission. Warm Regards A.R. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature There are types of magnetic EMF that cannot be shielded. Furthermore, if large amounts of electrons are being produced as a reaction byproduct, their chaotic interaction with the directly connected sensors and connectors may not be predictable over time. There may be an agreement in place between Rossi and the testers to keep this EMF based behavior of the Rossi reactor confidential to protect Industrial Heat's intellectual property claims. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil-- From my experience, I would doubt that is a major concern for these simple thermocouples. It there were a 50,000 watt antenna near by you might get a pick up which could be detected in the voltage output of the thermocouple. However, the external leads of a T/C are generally in a metal sheath and insulated from each other by a potting compound or other insulating material. The sheath would tend to shield the leads from RF (RG?) radiation. Axil, I think your concern is unfounded. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature Any directly connected sensor may be unreliable and erratic because of the production of intense RG radiation especially in a reactor without RF shielding. The only way to get good temperature data is through remote sensing, On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: Jed Rothwell The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. Well, catch-22 they used an internal thermocouple - and apparently took data from a perfect location, which could “see” down the axis of the tube, presumably the hottest place in the system, but chose not to release the data. What excuse can they have - other than the thermocouple data does not support the thermography (therefore the thermocouple failed)? Ahern proposed a calorimeter which would not compromise the integrity of the ceramic tube. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
I'm a novice at this, (so please correct me if I'm wrong), but it didn't
take long to find references to the idea that ideal black-body radiation
color has to be modified by an emissivity factor.
Emissivity is a modifying factor used in single color thermometry to
achieve a correct temperature
reading. Emissivity, or radiating efficiency, of most materials is
function of surface condition,
temperature and wavelength of measurement.
http://www-eng.lbl.gov/~dw/projects/DW4229_LHC_detector_analysis/calculations/emissivity2.pdf
Likewise, aluminum oxide (alumina) has an emissivity coefficient of 0.8
according to this reference:
http://www.gphysics.net/emissivity-coefficient
and 0.75 according to this reference:
http://www.coe.montana.edu/me/faculty/sofie/teaching/me360/Pyrometry%20Emissivity%20Notes.pdf
So, as I understand it the emissivity factor must be applied to an
ideal black-box foruma as follows:
The radiation energy per unit time from a *blackbody* is proportional
to the fourth power of the absolute temperature
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/temperature-d_291.html and can be
expressed with *Stefan-Boltzmann Law * as
/q = σ T^4 A/ /(1)/
/where/
/q/ /= heat transfer per unit time (W)/
/σ/ /= 5.6703 10^-8 (W/m^2 K^4 ) - *The* *Stefan-Boltzmann Constant*/
/T/ /= absolute temperature Kelvin (K)/
/A/ /= area of the emitting body (m^2 )/
For objects other than ideal blackbodies ('gray bodies') the
*Stefan-Boltzmann Law* can be expressed as
/q = ε σ T^4 A / /(2)/
/where/
/ε/ /= emissivity of the object (one for a black body)/
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html
So, doesn't the color chart have to be adjusted to accommodate the
emissivity factor? That would put an observed value of 950C at
around 1250C - 1350C, considering the conversion from C to K back to C.
Craig
On 10/20/2014 12:08 PM, Brad Lowe wrote:
Rossi responds to the claim that the color of the alumina at 1300°C
is white heat” by saying: stupidity, Alumina becomes white heat only
when it melts at 2070°C and compare it to the glass is an elementary
mistake
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=853cpage=14#comment-1013594
- Brad
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
In this context the temperature /T/
is known
a-priori
and
the output power /q/
is known
a posteriori , so emissivity /ε/
will
adjust the ouptut power downwards
if
0
/ε/ 1
q = ε σ T^4 A
Harry
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com
wrote:
I'm a novice at this, (so please correct me if I'm wrong), but it didn't
take long to find references to the idea that ideal black-body radiation
color has to be modified by an emissivity factor.
Emissivity is a modifying factor used in single color thermometry to
achieve a correct temperature
reading. Emissivity, or radiating efficiency, of most materials is
function of surface condition,
temperature and wavelength of measurement.
http://www-eng.lbl.gov/~dw/projects/DW4229_LHC_detector_
analysis/calculations/emissivity2.pdf
Likewise, aluminum oxide (alumina) has an emissivity coefficient of 0.8
according to this reference:
http://www.gphysics.net/emissivity-coefficient
and 0.75 according to this reference:
http://www.coe.montana.edu/me/faculty/sofie/teaching/me360/
Pyrometry%20Emissivity%20Notes.pdf
So, as I understand it the emissivity factor must be applied to an ideal
black-box foruma as follows:
The radiation energy per unit time from a *blackbody* is proportional to
the fourth power of the absolute temperature http://www.
engineeringtoolbox.com/temperature-d_291.html and can be expressed with
*Stefan-Boltzmann Law * as
/q = σ T^4 A/ /(1)/
/where/
/q/ /= heat transfer per unit time (W)/
/σ/ /= 5.6703 10^-8 (W/m^2 K^4 ) - *The* *Stefan-Boltzmann Constant*/
/T/ /= absolute temperature Kelvin (K)/
/A/ /= area of the emitting body (m^2 )/
For objects other than ideal blackbodies ('gray bodies') the
*Stefan-Boltzmann Law* can be expressed as
/q = ε σ T^4 A / /(2)/
/where/
/ε/ /= emissivity of the object (one for a black body)/
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html
So, doesn't the color chart have to be adjusted to accommodate the
emissivity factor? That would put an observed value of 950C at
around 1250C - 1350C, considering the conversion from C to K back to C.
Craig
On 10/20/2014 12:08 PM, Brad Lowe wrote:
Rossi responds to the claim that the color of the alumina at 1300°C
is white heat” by saying: stupidity, Alumina becomes white heat only
when it melts at 2070°C and compare it to the glass is an elementary
mistake
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=853cpage=14#comment-1013594
- Brad
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On 10/20/2014 04:30 PM, H Veeder wrote: In this context the temperature /T/ is known a-priori and the output power /q/ is known a posteriori , so emissivity /ε/ will adjust the ouptut power downwards if 0 /ε/ 1 q = ε σ T^4 A Harry Right, but the internal temperature could be at 1300C but only glow at an apparent 950C; isn't that how emissivity would change the observed visible color from that seen on this color chart? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg Craig
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/20/2014 04:30 PM, H Veeder wrote: In this context the temperature /T/ is known a-priori and the output power /q/ is known a posteriori , so emissivity /ε/ will adjust the ouptut power downwards if 0 /ε/ 1 q = ε σ T^4 A Harry Right, but the internal temperature could be at 1300C but only glow at an apparent 950C; isn't that how emissivity would change the observed visible color from that seen on this color chart? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/ File:Incandescence_Color.jpg Craig /q/ is calculated from T which is the measured surface temperature. It is not necessary to know the internal temperature. A colour chart should only be used when you already know the cause of the illumination. Incandescent illumination is caused by heat. This is a New World so we should be careful how we classify the native life. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Maybe Jed is right. See this subjective colour temperature chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#Subjective_color_to_the_eye_of_a_black_body_thermal_radiator Contrast with this chart which are presumably the true temperature colours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#mediaviewer/File:Blackbody-colours-vertical.svg When does the eye percieve orange light as white light? Does it has something to do with the intensity of the organge light? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
But the question I've been trying to ask, isn't the color adjusted by the emissivity factor? So if the emissivity is 0.75, then doesn't this mean that the observed color is less than the actual temperature? Craig On 10/20/2014 11:43 PM, H Veeder wrote: Maybe Jed is right. See this subjective colour temperature chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#Subjective_color_to_the_eye_of_a_black_body_thermal_radiator Contrast with this chart which are presumably the true temperature colours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#mediaviewer/File:Blackbody-colours-vertical.svg When does the eye percieve orange light as white light? Does it has something to do with the intensity of the organge light? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: But the question I've been trying to ask, isn't the color adjusted by the emissivity factor? So if the emissivity is 0.75, then doesn't this mean that the observed color is less than the actual temperature? As I have already reasoned the answer is no, because in this situation T is given (i.e.measured) and q is calculated so the emissivity factor will only adjust the output power downwards. If q was known, say by flow calorimetry, then the emissivity factor would bump T upwards. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 11:46 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: But the question I've been trying to ask, isn't the color adjusted by the emissivity factor? So if the emissivity is 0.75, then doesn't this mean that the observed color is less than the actual temperature? Sorry, now I see your true question. (I was distracted by the formula you provided.) Based on the passage you cited it appears an emissivity correction would bump up the temperature. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
I looked at that reference and went away about as confused as ever. Did you look at the two references that I found? I think it is important for us to follow up on this issue since it seems to be one that will not go away. Do metals appear differently than the materials that Mizuno was viewing? I found the view of the casting holes to be particularly interesting. They resemble a black body by being deep and surrounded by hot material. The color within these holes is very consistent from hole to hole and is very orange. The other reference I found also showed orange as the expected color. Two separate references should offer strong support for a concept. Please take time to look at the references I have listed and I suspect you might change your position. Keep in mind that what I found tends to support what the testers observed. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 1:57 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Why would you expect the device to look white hot when a known metal casting looks orange hot at approximately the same temperature? What am I missing? I think you are wrong. Mizuno and one other person with experience working with glass told me that 1300 deg C incandescence is white. That is what this and other references show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg Incandescence in all materials including solids and liquids has about the same color. The color is independent of the material. Mizuno said materials at 1300 deg C are so bright, they will hurt your eyes if you look at them. You need a welder's mask. As noted, we do not known when the photo was taken. I would say the temperature is 800 to 900 deg C. That is more than the calibration temperature. Maybe this was at the beginning of the test, before excess heat turned on. I have the impression from the graphs that it turns on quickly, so I doubt that is the case. If the authors do not address this question and tell us what color it was, after a while I am going assume they made a mistake, and I am going to ignore this test. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Do metals appear differently than the materials that Mizuno was viewing? Nope. As I said, all materials are incandescent at about the same color. It is only temperature dependent. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Yeah, they leave that out. Reminds me of some one else that we have been dealing with lately. I suppose that the wiki articles can confuse people very easily. I may have found some support for the lower temperature. Look at my latest calculations concerning the caps and how they might be used to our advantage. A quick look at what I might expect according to those calculations yields a temperature of 873.00 C for the reactor active region surface. That number is based upon what is shown for the measured cap temperatures. I hope that I am wrong about that calculation. If accurate, the COP is a lot less than I have hoped for. Everyone keep in mind that this is preliminary and may be way off in value. The process might be flawed and we need further information before it can be trusted. That should be enough disclaimers for just about anyone reading this post. Buyer beware. :-) Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:47 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature The caption under the picture doesn't make it clear how long the casting has been out of the oven Steel castings after undergoing 12 hour 1,200 °C (2,190 °F) heat treatment. I recently took up pottery so I know that when the temperature is 1200 the clay become less orange and more white. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:37 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: How do we reconcile that the color observed by people and I assume normal cameras is orange for the casting at 1200 C in the second sample I found? We are discussing the color shown in the pictures instead of the peak emission wavelength are we not? Why would you expect the device to look white hot when a known metal casting looks orange hot at approximately the same temperature? What am I missing? Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 12:31 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has colour temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared . harry On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dave, Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence Regards. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature. Dave -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Jed and Dave- Glass is not a black body in my estimation, and I would expect it to look different at any given temperature from a true black body. If Mizuno's correspondence with you Jed was relative to glass experience, I would say it is not applicable to a like-temperature black body. My thought would be that a metal that looked black to start with would be closer to a black body than a shiny silvery or gold one. However, its been years since I have reviewed the detailed electric and magnetic parameters of a substance that make it a black body. It would seem to me that resonant vibrational lattice parameters for whatever the material in question should skew the absorption and emission spectrum for that particular body and, hence, change the spectrum that escapes the particular body in question, relative to a black body. I think a black body absorbs and emits radiation at all visible frequencies without preference for any particular frequency. I do not think that is true for glass, since it is transparent to most visual light. Bob Cook - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Do metals appear differently than the materials that Mizuno was viewing? Nope. As I said, all materials are incandescent at about the same color. It is only temperature dependent. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
The temperature of a Pāhoehoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava#P.C4.81hoehoe lava flow can be estimated by observing its color. The result agrees well with measured temperatures of lava flows at about 1,000 to 1,200 °C (1,830 to 2,190 °F). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pahoehoe_toe.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation Craig
RE: [Vo]:Color Temperature
There is one other important detail in the discussion of light vs. temperature – the coherence or semi-coherence of the radiation. This is a step above “intensity”. If it is semi-coherent, the term “superradiance” is used. Even “invisible” IR light can be extremely visible – blindingly visible, when it is coherent or semi-coherent. A CO2 laser is all the evidence you need of that. The IR photons of this laser are completely invisible to the human eye - unless coherent where they show up as red. The CO2 laser is important because this wavelength is near or identical to where NASA thinks SPP are most easily formed. Of course, that could be because they are using a CO2 laser :-) From: H Veeder _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has color temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared . attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [Vo]:Color Temperature
The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. Of course, Levi knew that from TP1 – he was told this by dozens of peers - that he should have performed this task, yet he did not. There is no valid excuse … other than gross incompetence. The spiel that the temperature of the tube must maintain thermal equilibrium is no excuse. A long copper sheet, bent into a jacket with surrounding water coil extending over the lead-tubes, and surrounded by Aerogel super insulation could be mounted 20 cm away so as not to affect thermal equilibrium. It would retain 95% of heat (all forms) to be removed by the fluid. Instead, we are left with a credibility disaster for LENR in general. Can Mizuno right the ship? _ From: Jones Beene There is one other important detail in the discussion of light vs. temperature – the coherence or semi-coherence of the radiation. This is a step above “intensity”. If it is semi-coherent, the term “superradiance” is used. Even “invisible” IR light can be extremely visible – blindingly visible, when it is coherent or semi-coherent. A CO2 laser is all the evidence you need of that. The IR photons of this laser are completely invisible to the human eye - unless coherent where they show up as red. The CO2 laser is important because this wavelength is near or identical to where NASA thinks SPP are most easily formed. Of course, that could be because they are using a CO2 laser :-) From: H Veeder _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has color temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared . attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Jones, you are being unfair to Levi and the others. Putting together a calorimetric system that the skeptics would accept as accurate would not be an easy task. I appreciate the work that these guys performed. There are shortcomings that many have pointed out, but I suspect that this will always be the situation regardless of what is done. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 11:30 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:Color Temperature The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. Of course, Levi knew that from TP1 – he was told this by dozens of peers - that he should have performed this task, yet he did not. There is no valid excuse … other than gross incompetence. The spiel that the temperature of the tube must maintain thermal equilibrium is no excuse. A long copper sheet, bent into a jacket with surrounding water coil extending over the lead-tubes, and surrounded by Aerogel super insulation could be mounted 20 cm away so as not to affect thermal equilibrium. It would retain 95% of heat (all forms) to be removed by the fluid. Instead, we are left with a credibility disaster for LENR in general. Can Mizuno right the ship? _ From: Jones Beene There is one other important detail in the discussion of light vs. temperature – the coherence or semi-coherence of the radiation. This is a step above “intensity”. If it is semi-coherent, the term “superradiance” is used. Even “invisible” IR light can be extremely visible – blindingly visible, when it is coherent or semi-coherent. A CO2 laser is all the evidence you need of that. The IR photons of this laser are completely invisible to the human eye - unless coherent where they show up as red. The CO2 laser is important because this wavelength is near or identical to where NASA thinks SPP are most easily formed. Of course, that could be because they are using a CO2 laser :-) From: H Veeder _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has color temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared .
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:05 AM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: The temperature of a Pāhoehoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Lava#P.C4.81hoehoe lava flow can be estimated by observing its color. The result agrees well with measured temperatures of lava flows at about 1,000 to 1,200 °C (1,830 to 2,190 °F). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pahoehoe_toe.jpg I assume the temperature should be estimated from the light patches in the lava flow, since the darker patches are areas of the surface that are starting to harden. The lighter portions match the color in the image Jed has been pointing to, making an estimate of 1000 to 1200 C seem reasonable [1]. The challenge with lava is that it is essentially a blackbody, as can be seen by the areas of the lava flow that have already cooled down. People are debating elsewhere in this thread whether the same heuristic for deriving temperature from color can be applied to something that isn't a blackbody (e.g., glass, or an alumina cylinder). I wonder if there is someone who can speak from professional experience on this question. Eric [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg
RE: [Vo]:Color Temperature
I disagree Dave. If you were to count the many hundreds if not thousands of hours which have been wasted arguing over the thermometry, multiplied by the hourly rate of the arguers, the actual cost to do excellent water flow calorimetry would have been a small fraction of that – probably less than 10%. Ahern offered to do this for less than the many airfares to Lugano. Levi should not be given a free ride on this report, since he was roundly criticized in the first instance. I suspect he was well-paid as well. From: David Roberson Jones, you are being unfair to Levi and the others. Putting together a calorimetric system that the skeptics would accept as accurate would not be an easy task. I appreciate the work that these guys performed. There are shortcomings that many have pointed out, but I suspect that this will always be the situation regardless of what is done. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. Of course, Levi knew that from TP1 – he was told this by dozens of peers - that he should have performed this task, yet he did not. There is no valid excuse … other than gross incompetence. The spiel that the temperature of the tube must maintain thermal equilibrium is no excuse. A long copper sheet, bent into a jacket with surrounding water coil extending over the lead-tubes, and surrounded by Aerogel super insulation could be mounted 20 cm away so as not to affect thermal equilibrium. It would retain 95% of heat (all forms) to be removed by the fluid. Instead, we are left with a credibility disaster for LENR in general. Can Mizuno right the ship? _ From: Jones Beene There is one other important detail in the discussion of light vs. temperature – the coherence or semi-coherence of the radiation. This is a step above “intensity”. If it is semi-coherent, the term “superradiance” is used. Even “invisible” IR light can be extremely visible – blindingly visible, when it is coherent or semi-coherent. A CO2 laser is all the evidence you need of that. The IR photons of this laser are completely invisible to the human eye - unless coherent where they show up as red. The CO2 laser is important because this wavelength is near or identical to where NASA thinks SPP are most easily formed. Of course, that could be because they are using a CO2 laser :-) From: H Veeder _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has color temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared .
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: I disagree Dave. If you were to count the many hundreds if not thousands of hours which have been wasted arguing over the thermometry, multiplied by the hourly rate of the arguers, the actual cost to do excellent water flow calorimetry would have been a small fraction of that – probably less than 10%. I kind of agree. I wish they had carried out calorimetry that would not have been open to fiddly questions. And beyond that, I wish there had been multiple, careful calibration runs, instead of something that wasn't really a calibration run. The authors hint that they know they're brushing aside an important detail by giving explanations for the low-temperature of the dummy run: So, there was some fear of fracturing the ceramic body, due to the lower temperature of the thermal generators with respect to the loaded reactor. For these reasons, power to the dummy reactor was held at below 500 W, in order to avoid any possible damage to the apparatus. They seem to have known in advance that this decision would be a point of controversy. It is true that they had only one E-Cat, so if they broke it, they might have been in a bind. That constraint on a good test would ultimately go back to Rossi and IH. I don't know what considerations apply to measuring the power output of a body that is as hot as the E-Cat (presumably in the 900-1500 C range). It may be that professionals use approaches similar to the one used in the Lugano test, with IR cameras and so on. We are hampered by a lack of direct professional expertise on this question. We have heard numerous complaints from smart people who have no direct expertise in this stuff. By contrast, there was the suggestion sometime back by someone who does have expertise that the approach of the Lugano test was basically sound, and they did go to the manufacturers and calibrate their equipment. If the calorimetry they did was basically sound, the problem is largely with us. Still, we only have the information that we have, and we can only draw upon the knowledge we already have. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Light bulbs are described by the color of the light that they produce. In that regard, a temperature of 1200C would correspond to a red orange. http://www.google.com/url?sa=irct=jq=esrc=ssource=imagescd=cad=rjauact=8ved=0CAcQjRwurl=http%3A%2F%2Flowel.tiffen.com%2Fedu%2Fcolor_temperature_and_rendering_demystified.htmlei=Ef5DVKD0MNj_yQT8toGIDgbvm=bv.77648437,d.aWwpsig=AFQjCNH71xFUDo2GXIveYEduRGMTWwWicAust=1413828256200317 http://www.google.com/url?sa=irct=jq=esrc=ssource=imagescd=cad=rjauact=8ved=0CAcQjRwurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.robaid.com%2Fgadgets%2Fdefinite-guide-for-declaration-found-on-light-bulb-packages.htmei=lf1DVLSCAsK0yASz-4DwBgbvm=bv.77648437,d.aWwpsig=AFQjCNH71xFUDo2GXIveYEduRGMTWwWicAust=1413828256200317 On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:05 AM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: The temperature of a Pāhoehoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Lava#P.C4.81hoehoe lava flow can be estimated by observing its color. The result agrees well with measured temperatures of lava flows at about 1,000 to 1,200 °C (1,830 to 2,190 °F). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pahoehoe_toe.jpg I assume the temperature should be estimated from the light patches in the lava flow, since the darker patches are areas of the surface that are starting to harden. The lighter portions match the color in the image Jed has been pointing to, making an estimate of 1000 to 1200 C seem reasonable [1]. The challenge with lava is that it is essentially a blackbody, as can be seen by the areas of the lava flow that have already cooled down. People are debating elsewhere in this thread whether the same heuristic for deriving temperature from color can be applied to something that isn't a blackbody (e.g., glass, or an alumina cylinder). I wonder if there is someone who can speak from professional experience on this question. Eric [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Only a Thermal Camera is calibrated to show accurate readings when imaging glowing hot objects, a normal consumer camera will automatically make ISO adjustments to bring the scene into a visible range. Depending on how you have the camera aimed and pointed, you can make a dull red glow appear to be orange, or a white hot glow can be adjusted to look reddish. You need to know what type of imaging device was used to get which pictures in the report. Nixter On Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dave, Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence Regards. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature. Dave -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Jones-- As you may remember I was at the University of Bologna on September 19th exactly 1 month ago with the objective of visiting Levi. I do not believe he was well paid for his work at Lugano. The University would not accept a donation from me to assist in LENR research at the University or any other donation unless it was specifically approved by the Italian Government. I was informed that there is an Italian law to this effect disallowing donations to Italian universities, at least those that are state owned. The Physics Department head professor noted that there would be a lot of paper work necessary to even propose a donation. I got the idea that any effort to go through the red tape would be useless. Separately, while in Bologna I was informed that it would be doubtful that Levi would accept any kind of payment or donation of any kind and still remain a professor. This was an outside opinion by what I consider a knowledgeable Italian source.In this regard I concluded that Focardi was never paid by Rossi while being a professor. He and Levi worked together and seemed to me to be of like minds. The reason I was not able to meet with Levi himself is not clear, however, in reflection I believe he was in Lugano working on the report we have been discussing. I have not confirmed this with him. I may try in the future not that I am back with my desk top keyboard. Bob - Original Message - From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:38 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Color Temperature I disagree Dave. If you were to count the many hundreds if not thousands of hours which have been wasted arguing over the thermometry, multiplied by the hourly rate of the arguers, the actual cost to do excellent water flow calorimetry would have been a small fraction of that – probably less than 10%. Ahern offered to do this for less than the many airfares to Lugano. Levi should not be given a free ride on this report, since he was roundly criticized in the first instance. I suspect he was well-paid as well. From: David Roberson Jones, you are being unfair to Levi and the others. Putting together a calorimetric system that the skeptics would accept as accurate would not be an easy task. I appreciate the work that these guys performed. There are shortcomings that many have pointed out, but I suspect that this will always be the situation regardless of what is done. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality thatan inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flowcalorimetry. Of course, Levi knew that from TP1 – he was told this by dozens of peers -that he should have performed this task, yet he did not. There is no validexcuse … other than gross incompetence. The spiel that the temperature of the tube must maintain thermal equilibriumis no excuse. A long copper sheet, bent into a jacket with surrounding watercoil extending over the lead-tubes, and surrounded by Aerogel superinsulation could be mounted 20 cm away so as not to affect thermalequilibrium. It would retain 95% of heat (all forms) to be removed by thefluid. Instead, we are left with a credibility disaster for LENR in general. CanMizuno right the ship? _ From: Jones Beene There is one other important detail in the discussion oflight vs. temperature – the coherence or semi-coherence of the radiation.This is a step above “intensity”. If it is semi-coherent, the term “superradiance” is used.Even “invisible” IR light can be extremely visible – blindingly visible,when it is coherent or semi-coherent. A CO2 laser is all the evidence you need of that. The IRphotons of this laser are completely invisible to the human eye - unlesscoherent where they show up as red. The CO2 laser is important because this wavelength is nearor identical to where NASA thinks SPP are most easily formed. Of course,that could be because they are using a CO2 laser :-) From: H Veeder _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak*emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission withinthe visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000Cand the peek emission is white light so it has color temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* lightemitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peakemission is in the infrared .
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: The temperature of a Pāhoehoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Lava#P.C4.81hoehoe lava flow can be estimated by observing its color. The result agrees well with measured temperatures of lava flows at about 1,000 to 1,200 °C (1,830 to 2,190 °F). And it is white, as you see. It is white underneath where it is hottest. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Dave, I did some calculations based on some formulas provided here: http://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/8949/how-do-i-calculate-the-color-temperature-of-the-light-source-illuminating-an-ima I set up a spreadsheet to do the calculations, and pulled the RGB values with a graphics editor (Gimp). The hottest spot I could find according to those formulas was 1792C. This was based on the picture taken in the dark. Given that it is obvious that there are temperature variation across the tube, it does not seem unreasonable for 1400C average. The wire coming in the left side calculates to 2014C. Best, Jack On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:09 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I looked at that reference and went away about as confused as ever. Did you look at the two references that I found? I think it is important for us to follow up on this issue since it seems to be one that will not go away. Do metals appear differently than the materials that Mizuno was viewing? I found the view of the casting holes to be particularly interesting. They resemble a black body by being deep and surrounded by hot material. The color within these holes is very consistent from hole to hole and is very orange. The other reference I found also showed orange as the expected color. Two separate references should offer strong support for a concept. Please take time to look at the references I have listed and I suspect you might change your position. Keep in mind that what I found tends to support what the testers observed. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 1:57 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Why would you expect the device to look white hot when a known metal casting looks orange hot at approximately the same temperature? What am I missing? I think you are wrong. Mizuno and one other person with experience working with glass told me that 1300 deg C incandescence is white. That is what this and other references show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg Incandescence in all materials including solids and liquids has about the same color. The color is independent of the material. Mizuno said materials at 1300 deg C are so bright, they will hurt your eyes if you look at them. You need a welder's mask. As noted, we do not known when the photo was taken. I would say the temperature is 800 to 900 deg C. That is more than the calibration temperature. Maybe this was at the beginning of the test, before excess heat turned on. I have the impression from the graphs that it turns on quickly, so I doubt that is the case. If the authors do not address this question and tell us what color it was, after a while I am going assume they made a mistake, and I am going to ignore this test. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Bob Cook wrote. Glass is not a black body in my estimation, and I would expect it to look different at any given temperature from a true black body. Having looked inside 100 operating glass melters at temperatures ranging from ambient to 1500C, at any temperature where things start to glow there is not much visible difference between the various materials. For example at 1500C everything looks blindingly white, the molten glass surface, the silica superstrucxture, the AZS refactory side walls. There must be some differences because one can still make out the edges of the refractory blocks and batch piles floating on the molten surface. It seems to me there is more a difference in brightness than color between 1400 - 1500C. Things start looking red at much lower temperatures. I would quess the E-Cat in the famous photo was 700-900C Jed, I agree with what you wrote about flow calorimetry being difficult. It would have been sensible to get confirmation of the temperature, at least at one spot, by a thermocouple. I wonder if we have the whole story. That number of people working that long should have figured out some way to confirm the temperature indicated by the camera. I know I would. FOr one thing, I have found the geopmetry of the surface upsets the readings and the surface sure wasn't flat.
RE: [Vo]:Color Temperature
From: Jed Rothwell The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. Well, catch-22 they used an internal thermocouple - and apparently took data from a perfect location, which could “see” down the axis of the tube, presumably the hottest place in the system, but chose not to release the data. What excuse can they have - other than the thermocouple data does not support the thermography (therefore the thermocouple failed)? Ahern proposed a calorimeter which would not compromise the integrity of the ceramic tube. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Any directly connected sensor may be unreliable and erratic because of the production of intense RG radiation especially in a reactor without RF shielding. The only way to get good temperature data is through remote sensing, On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Jed Rothwell The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. Well, catch-22 they used an internal thermocouple - and apparently took data from a perfect location, which could “see” down the axis of the tube, presumably the hottest place in the system, but chose not to release the data. What excuse can they have - other than the thermocouple data does not support the thermography (therefore the thermocouple failed)? Ahern proposed a calorimeter which would not compromise the integrity of the ceramic tube. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Jones-- Common practice would be to calibrate the thermocouple before and after the test. I think that, if the thermocouple were not working it would be obvious and there would be data to confirm it did not work. The differences between the camera and the thermocouple, if it worked, should be explained. A report addendum is common. Bob Cook - Original Message - From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:24 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Color Temperature From: Jed Rothwell The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. Well, catch-22 they used an internal thermocouple - and apparently took data from a perfect location, which could “see” down the axis of the tube, presumably the hottest place in the system, but chose not to release the data. What excuse can they have - other than the thermocouple data does not support the thermography (therefore the thermocouple failed)? Ahern proposed a calorimeter which would not compromise the integrity of the ceramic tube. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Common practice would be to calibrate the thermocouple before and after the test. I think that, if the thermocouple were not working it would be obvious . . . If the thermocouple were not working the cell would overheat, wouldn't it? I think it is a thermostat. That's my reading of the report. Maybe it is only used with pulsed input, which they did not employ. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Axil-- From my experience, I would doubt that is a major concern for these simple thermocouples. It there were a 50,000 watt antenna near by you might get a pick up which could be detected in the voltage output of the thermocouple. However, the external leads of a T/C are generally in a metal sheath and insulated from each other by a potting compound or other insulating material. The sheath would tend to shield the leads from RF (RG?) radiation. Axil, I think your concern is unfounded. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature Any directly connected sensor may be unreliable and erratic because of the production of intense RG radiation especially in a reactor without RF shielding. The only way to get good temperature data is through remote sensing, On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: Jed Rothwell The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. Well, catch-22 they used an internal thermocouple - and apparently took data from a perfect location, which could “see” down the axis of the tube, presumably the hottest place in the system, but chose not to release the data. What excuse can they have - other than the thermocouple data does not support the thermography (therefore the thermocouple failed)? Ahern proposed a calorimeter which would not compromise the integrity of the ceramic tube. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
There are types of magnetic EMF that cannot be shielded. Furthermore, if large amounts of electrons are being produced as a reaction byproduct, their chaotic interaction with the directly connected sensors and connectors may not be predictable over time. There may be an agreement in place between Rossi and the testers to keep this EMF based behavior of the Rossi reactor confidential to protect Industrial Heat's intellectual property claims. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil-- From my experience, I would doubt that is a major concern for these simple thermocouples. It there were a 50,000 watt antenna near by you might get a pick up which could be detected in the voltage output of the thermocouple. However, the external leads of a T/C are generally in a metal sheath and insulated from each other by a potting compound or other insulating material. The sheath would tend to shield the leads from RF (RG?) radiation. Axil, I think your concern is unfounded. Bob - Original Message - *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:33 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature Any directly connected sensor may be unreliable and erratic because of the production of intense RG radiation especially in a reactor without RF shielding. The only way to get good temperature data is through remote sensing, On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Jed Rothwell The discussion of color and temperature only mask the glaring reality that an inexpensive way to be certain of thermal gain in the TP2 device is flow calorimetry. I think flow calorimetry with this device at these temperatures would be problematic. For one thing, you could not see the device, which might even be dangerous. I think the present method is better, although it may not have been done right. It should be confirmed with the internal thermocouples. Well, catch-22 they used an internal thermocouple - and apparently took data from a perfect location, which could “see” down the axis of the tube, presumably the hottest place in the system, but chose not to release the data. What excuse can they have - other than the thermocouple data does not support the thermography (therefore the thermocouple failed)? Ahern proposed a calorimeter which would not compromise the integrity of the ceramic tube. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 4:04 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Furthermore, if large amounts of electrons are being produced as a reaction byproduct ... How is conservation of charge maintained in this context? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
Hi Dave, Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence Regards. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature. Dave -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
_Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has colour temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared . harry On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dave, Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence Regards. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature . Dave -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
How do we reconcile that the color observed by people and I assume normal cameras is orange for the casting at 1200 C in the second sample I found? We are discussing the color shown in the pictures instead of the peak emission wavelength are we not? Why would you expect the device to look white hot when a known metal casting looks orange hot at approximately the same temperature? What am I missing? Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 12:31 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has colour temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared . harry On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dave, Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence Regards. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature. Dave -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
The caption under the picture doesn't make it clear how long the casting has been out of the oven Steel castings after undergoing 12 hour 1,200 °C (2,190 °F) heat treatment. I recently took up pottery so I know that when the temperature is 1200 the clay become less orange and more white. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:37 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: How do we reconcile that the color observed by people and I assume normal cameras is orange for the casting at 1200 C in the second sample I found? We are discussing the color shown in the pictures instead of the peak emission wavelength are we not? Why would you expect the device to look white hot when a known metal casting looks orange hot at approximately the same temperature? What am I missing? Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 12:31 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature _Colour temperature_ refers to the *peak* emission of a blackbody whose temperature produces a peak emission within the visible spectrum. e.g. The surface of the sun is about 6000C and the peek emission is white light so it has colour temperature of white. _Incadescence_ is the *visible* light emitted by a black body at a given temperature. An iron at 800C glows red but the peak emission is in the infrared . harry On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dave, Jed refers to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence Regards. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:38 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature. Dave -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Color Temperature
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Why would you expect the device to look white hot when a known metal casting looks orange hot at approximately the same temperature? What am I missing? I think you are wrong. Mizuno and one other person with experience working with glass told me that 1300 deg C incandescence is white. That is what this and other references show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg Incandescence in all materials including solids and liquids has about the same color. The color is independent of the material. Mizuno said materials at 1300 deg C are so bright, they will hurt your eyes if you look at them. You need a welder's mask. As noted, we do not known when the photo was taken. I would say the temperature is 800 to 900 deg C. That is more than the calibration temperature. Maybe this was at the beginning of the test, before excess heat turned on. I have the impression from the graphs that it turns on quickly, so I doubt that is the case. If the authors do not address this question and tell us what color it was, after a while I am going assume they made a mistake, and I am going to ignore this test. - Jed
